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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Mike Gagne on April 03, 2014, 07:41:01 PM
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Could some one tell me when the elect becomes the elect? If we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world then would we be born the elect. I know LRays teaching in the LOF on who is the beast part13 ,and where he talks about 2 thess 2:3-4 . Is that when we become the elect or are we born the elect. Does Lray have any teaching on this?
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Were Peter, James, John and the others disciples of Christ before they were disciples of Christ?
It's in 'the fullness of time' when things happen, even when they are predestined to happen. He knows. We don't know until the fullness of time.
Mike, Ray taught from the Revelation that it is in looking BACK that we hear the voice.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet...
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Hi Mike,
As with all things it's a process, yes the elect have been chosen from before the foundation of the world, which mean they are born to be an elect and whoever those Elect are, they can not be lost.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
But only God knows who are His and who will endure to the end, because at first the elect are among the rest of the deceived and are just as blind as they are. But for a few, one day God opens their blind eyes and draws them to Him so they can begin the next part of the process.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
v. 30 I and My Father are one."
Here is an email.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.0.html ------------
Those whom God has foreordained to be the elect will always be the elect. The chosen elect cannot be lost. But you and I do not know exactly who is and who isn't an elect. Only God's knows those who are His, and therefore, we can never let down our guard, because we might only think that we are elect. I have seen and witnessed this with my own eyes where those who appeared to be elect, turned and now blaspheme the name of the Saviour they claimed to worship a short while back.
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But of the few then we have the parable of the sower and the seed. Here is a excerpt form 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?' article no. 8.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------
THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).
So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?
Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Dave, yes I am starting to see that looking back I can see what has been happening! Thank you also Kat, I read so much teachings from the LOF that I forgot I read that twice already. It's been like I get in there reading LRays writings and I can't stop and then when I do stop I have a hard time remembering all that I read. I was on chapter 5 of the LOF series with this question in my head and here it was coming up in chapter 8 lol. I guess I need to slow down and digest all these truths! Thanks you so much! I am glad to know that you guys are here for help.
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Thanks Kat I get it now. :D blessing
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But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such.
Reminds me of another story from the scriptures. They are pregnant with examples and types for us once God takes off the blinders. Here is one of my favorites. Can we see ourselves in here?
Judges 7:2-7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand. And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go. So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.
Once again we see it played out between the few and the many. God is choosing 'few' to bring the many to salvation in the ages ahead. There are so many examples for us once God allows us to see it.
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Thanks Arion. There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven- A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted. A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up. A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away. A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace. What profit is there to the worker from that in which he toils? I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. (Ecclesiastes 3:1-10 Then I think it's safe to say if you are the elect your whole life has been apart of getting you ready for the first resurrection ? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:10 ) I think I see it now, that the life time of afflictions and suffering are all part of preparing those who are the elect and that their whole life is a part of the process to become the First fruits of God. If I am wrong would some one show me different? Thanks again everyone. Blessing
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I think that's true, Mike...but not ONLY about the Elect. There is a FIRST, but the fall harvest is the big one. That's the one that makes Jesus the Savior of the world. We always take HIS yoke. That's the way it works.
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Thank God that his fall harvest will include all the rest!!! It's hard when you see all the suffering in the world to understand the difference between the elects afflictions and suffering and the worlds ?
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Does God really play favorites? His Word says He is no respecter of persons.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."
Is it God who gave Himself to save man who has blinded man's eyes, or is it satan, the god of this world?
2 Corinthians 4: 3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the
illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them."
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Hi JohnChris,
While God has the right to choose and use whoever He sees fit, I think you must look at this from where we are in God's plan. The elect are actually a few that are chosen or favored above the rest of the people of the world at this time. The elect are the privileged few that will be in the first resurrection, so yes favored.
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen.
In this statement the "first" seems to be the Jews, called to be God's people through the OT, but not a single one of them will be in the first resurrection. But don't you think they were favored over the rest of the nations of the world at that time? Maybe they were a physical foreshadow of the spiritually favored people yet to come, which would be the "last" or those that came later after the Jews, the few, the elect.
This is from Strong's Greek dictionary:
chosen
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
From Webster's
Chosen
CHOSEN, pp.
1. Selected from a number; picked out; taken in preference; elected; predestinated; designated to office.
2. Select; distinguished by preference; eminent.
Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. 1 Pet 2.
Favorite
FA'VORITE, n.
A person or thing regarded with peculiar favor, preference and affection; one greatly beloved. Select favorites from among the discrete and the virtuous.
FA'VORITE, a. Regarded with particular kindness, affection, esteem or preference; as a favorite walk; a favorite author; a favorite child.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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What I wrestle with is that the Elect of God , in this life , have the gift of the indwelling Spirit of God. But the called do not have the spirit of God- correct? So if you or I am not in the Elect, then I am bereft and empty because His Spirit is not with me . And there's nothing I can do about it. I don't really know how to cope with that.
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Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
That isn't correct. The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called. But he is IN the very elect of God. How could we learn any of these truths if the holy spirit of God isn't with us? I've felt flashes of inspiration and God's presence many times even when I was in my carnal church. It's just that there were a lot of things I didn't understand and couldn't overcome as long as I was still in that church system. God is presently with each and every one of us and for the elect he 'shall be' [future tense] in us when we are converted. Either in this age as part of the very elect or in the ages to come.
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Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
That isn't correct. The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called. But he is IN the very elect of God. How could we learn any of these truths if the holy spirit of God isn't with us? I've felt flashes of inspiration and God's presence many times even when I was in my carnal church. It's just that there were a lot of things I didn't understand and couldn't overcome as long as I was still in that church system. God is presently with each and every one of us and for the elect he 'shall be' [future tense] in us when we are converted. Either in this age as part of the very elect or in the ages to come.
No you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit only dwells within the called and chosen, the little flock, the few, those who are the first fruits now, those who will be in the 1st Resurrection, the members of the Church of the Living God. Read about the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.
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Hi Arion,
Here is that verse from the Concordant.
John 14:17 17 the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you."
That phrase at the end, "for it is remaining with you and will be in you," seems to be speaking to the elect only. Christ was speaking to them before His crucifixion so was speaking of what "will be," but was saying once it came it would be "remaining" from then on.
The first part of that verse "the spirit of truth, which the world can not get," is speaking to all the rest of the world.
As for understanding the truth we do have human reasoning to think about these things, but that cannot take get you much spiritual understanding, because that is also where the doctrine of man comes from. I think the world's understanding is what the principle behind the sower and the seed... people can see a glimpse of truth, but without the spirit indwelling it cannot remain and will be lost one way or another.
Mark 4:3 "Listen! A sower went out to sow.
v. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
v. 5 Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil.
v. 6 And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.
v. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
v. 8 And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
v. 9 And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Does God really play favorites? His Word says He is no respecter of persons.
I don't see it as playing favorites in this life:
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
... and many others.
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dennis, i think you forgot to mention this post in your reply regarding not seeing it as (God) playing favorites.
claudia
The elect are actually a few that are chosen or favored above the rest of the people of the world at this time. The elect are the privileged few that will be in the first resurrection, so yes favored.
claudia
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dennis, i think you forgot to mention this post in your reply regarding not seeing it as (God) playing favorites.
claudia
The elect are actually a few that are chosen or favored above the rest of the people of the world at this time. The elect are the privileged few that will be in the first resurrection, so yes favored.
claudia
Favored yes, but not always having a favored life in the flesh. I see it as a hard life which is necessary to remold us.
Ray says getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever do (12 minutes in):
Getting Saved part 1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 GettingSaved_p1.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 GettingSaved_p1.mp3)
Getting Saved part 2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 GettingSaved_p2.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 GettingSaved_p2.mp3)
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No you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit only dwells within the called and chosen, the little flock, the few, those who are the first fruits now, those who will be in the 1st Resurrection, the members of the Church of the Living God. Read about the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.
John;
Isn't that exactly what I said here?
The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called. But he is IN the very elect of God.
He only dwells within the called and chosen.
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No you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit only dwells within the called and chosen, the little flock, the few, those who are the first fruits now, those who will be in the 1st Resurrection, the members of the Church of the Living God. Read about the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.
John;
Isn't that exactly what I said here?
The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called. But he is IN the very elect of God.
He only dwells within the called and chosen.
O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.
The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.
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O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.
The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
continued......
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
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O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.
The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
continued......
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
The English word "saint" is from the Greek word "hagios". The Greek word "hagios" means holy, reverent, set apart and applicable to God.
For example in the name Holy Spirit, the translation Holy is from the Greek "Hagios". See Matt. 1:18; the reference to Holy Spirit, the Holy is "Hagios". And there are many Scriptures where it is the Holy (Hagios) Spirit.
Therefore, based upon the association of the word "hagios", holy or saint, I do not believe it applies to every member of the Christian Churches throughout the ages.
Only the Elect, the small chosen few, will be gathered to Jesus at the 1st Resurrection; the rest will be burned (symbolically).
In Eph 1:1, is the term saints referring to the whole church at Ephesus, or a subset, a few who are saints, holy to God? I don't think that one verse is absolutely clear on that one point.
The seven churches in Revelation are not referring to the literal seven churches in Asia Minor at that time. Revelation is all written in symbolic language. Those seven churches are symbolic churches, which represent the one Church throughout the ages. Even then, only a few, the saints, the holy ones dedicated to God, are saved in the 1st Resurrection.
Lets cut through all the crap and get to the truth. The Scriptures speaks of the Two Witnesses; in the mouth of two witnesses let every word be established.
Present your two Scriptures that clearly state that the word saint (hagios) refers to all the called into the church and not just the called and chosen (the Elect).
No cheating. Don't try to fit an unrelated verse into the discussion and tell me that it is a fit. I can tell. You can't fool a Corleone. :D
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...Lets cut through all the crap and get to the truth.
Well,
I don't think any of this is 'crap' but be that as it may, your addressing this to me but Ray wrote the piece and Ray isn't here to speak for himself and I have no intention to sit here and argue with you or parse words as it doesn't bear any fruit and I'm not seeking a point of contention with you either. Ray stated it very well here I think
'So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.'
If you stumble over the word saints and want to call them just 'believers', 'followers' or 'the called' but not the chosen or the churchgoers standing on the sand of the sea but not the very elect of God I have no problem with any of that. It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia. And to keep this from spiraling downhill this will be my last post on this thread.
Take care..
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It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.
:)
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Well according to Paul, at least one church knew they were elect:
1 Thessalonians 1:3 unceasingly remembering of you the work of the faith, and the labour of the love, and the endurance of the hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the presence of our God and Father, 4 having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election, (Young's Literal Translation)
Rotherham's Emphasized
3 Unceasingly, remembering—your work of faith and labour of love and endurance of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father: 4. Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election
Concordant
4 Having perceived, brethren beloved by God, your choice.
New King James Version
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4. knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
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Well I can't see why a topic cannot be discussed without arguing and contention. Arion brings out an interesting point about the saints from Ephesians 1 with a comment of Ray's, and I want to understand what Ray was saying there better. So as I read back over the article it became clear, in Revelation 12-13 it speaks of a the "beast" and "it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them" (Rev 13:6). Ray was explaining the point of how it was possible for the saints to be overcome at all.
So what I understand is that the saints are the elect (or better put, will be), Paul makes it clear in the rest of Ephesians 1.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
v. 2 Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
v. 4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5 having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.
But as Ray brought out there is a difference... it appears that the saints are God's chosen 'before' the Holy Spirit is indwelling, therefore they are still worldly and are deceived/overcome. It's only after the Spirit enters a person do they become "the very elect" and cannot be deceived any longer (Matt 24:24) and I think that is what Ray was bringing out.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ------------------------
Next notice that:
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth. And yet… and YET, of the wild beast that comes out of the sea in Revelation 13, we are told:
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle and them that [spiritually] dwell in heaven. And it was given unto Him [the wild beast] to make war with the saints, and TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS" (Verses 6-7).
Now maybe you don’t catch the significance of these verses. Here is a wild beast that not only has power, "…over ALL KINDREDS, and TONGUES, and NATIONS," but also can, "…make war with the SAINTS, and to OVERCOME THEM…" Is it possible for Satan to OVERCOME THE SAINTS? How can this be? Where? Show me?
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because GREATER is He [Jesus] that is in you, than he [Satan] that is in the world" (I John 4:4).
Does this verse sound like there is some wild beast OUT THERE somewhere, who can make a mockery of this verse, because this wild beast really can "…make war with the saints, and to OVERCOME them?" What ever happened to:
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. RESIST the devil, and he WILL FLEE FROM YOU" (James 4:7)?
Is there, OUT THERE SOMEWHERE, a power for evil that is even GREATER than Satan the Devil, himself? Why haven’t we been warned about him before we come to Rev. 13:7?
Did Jesus ever warn us of this wild beast? Did the apostles? Did Paul to the nations, warn of this evil power? How could the saints themselves, be deceived by this wild beast? I thought that the very elect of God CANNOT be deceived:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).
Ah, but it is NOT POSSIBLE to deceive the very elect! Will someone tell me what’s going on here with this wild beast?
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
v
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a GREAT voice, as of a trumpet" (Rev. 1:10).
What POSSIBLE thing could John have heard, that happened "BEHIND him," that was in the same league as the four GIANT events portrayed by the other four GREAT VOICES? What was it that John saw "BEHIND him" as he "stood upon the sand of the sea" and "saw a WILD BEAST rise up out of the sea?" What did this wild beast mean to John? What will it mean to the world? What should it mean to US?
Whatever this wild beast from the sea is, it is among the five greatest pronouncements that bring in the "end of the world" — the "consummation of the age."
This wild beast from the sea is the only thing in all Revelation that "makes war with the saints" AND "OVERCOME them." Seven times in Rev. 2 & 3 were are told to OVERCOME seven categories of sins. Yet here we read that it is the saints themselves that are overcome. Let’s make some sense out of all this.
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We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!
When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.
This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this
"…beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."
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II Thes. 2:3:
"Let no man [‘let not any person,’ RSV, ‘Let no ONE…’] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.
And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don’t want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat,
I'm not sure to whom your comments were addressed about arguing or contention.
I do notice though that for some, it's necessary to accompany the references to Ray's teachings, with their implications that others just don't get it and are not at the level to understand as they do. And then sometimes, the comments border on the arrogant and insulting.
I for one don't believe that the way to convince others is by beating them over the head and berating them.
I believe Ray wanted to point us to a deeper relationship with God, as we come into deeper revelation and understanding. I don't think he wanted us to be caught up in arguments over "endless genealogies", which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
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I so often feel like a "bear with little brain" when it comes to Bible truths too big for me. I'm glad for the discussion though.
One of the things I don't understand concerning the passages Kat quoted above from Ray is this:
As I understand it Revelations talk about the church in Ephesus, however Ray goes on to sat it symbolizes the whole church and we All leave our first love. So, my quandary is, how is that related to Paul greeting the saints in Ephesus? Revelations is symbolic, a vision . Are they even the same church we are talking about? What do you all think?
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It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.
:)
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The truth is............
These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)
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The truth is............
These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)
So then they are not sinners after their conversion? Do you know have knowledge of anyone on the earth, save for Christ, who are elect or sins no more after their conversion?
I'm not busting your chops, I just wondered.
The whole elect teaching is a doctrine that was really pushed by the WWCG. I grew up Methodist and attended Baptist and Independent congregations for many years and the "Elect" doctrine was not pushed in these churches. The "rapture" "once saved always saved" and "save and pay" was though. I think we put too much emphasis on this "elect" teaching. I have been on the forum longer than about anybody and in all these years there is none that I would suspect being an "elect" except possibly one, but I would not know anyway only God does. We get so caught up worrying about words and the future we don't allow God and Christ to work in us now.
"Elect"? Sure, if you think knowledge makes us special then everyone is elect. But knowledge and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in most places. Everyone in religion claims their knowledge is correct, they have scripture they use to support this; we are different though because we have the "Spirit". Guess what people? All the other religious group makes the same claim.
All is of God, God is working in us to perfect us and knowledge is not all there is.
So does anyone want to know what happens when we die or in the next age? I will tell you and you can take this to the bank. We don't know and we won't know until our time comes, when we become a spirit all the physical laws, thoughts and emotions are different, how can we attempt to explain this when we cannot even begin to fathom the spiritual realm??? We are like a bunch of ants trying to explain nuclear physics.
I am sad to say the forum is slowly becoming as much a church as the ones I left years ago. :(
From one ant to the rest...
Craig
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Craig, it's not that the elect cannot or do not sin, but they are the few that now have been lead to repentance and their sins are covered by the sacrifice of Christ.
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
v. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
v. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
v. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Hi octoberose,
Here are excerpts from the article 'The Seven Symbolic Churches of Revelation.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html -------------------
A LITTLE HISTORY OF GOD’S CHURCH
There is great debate over when the Church of God really started. I don’t see the problem myself, because the first mention of "the Church" is in Acts 7:38 where we read: "This is He [Christ, I Cor. 10:4] that was in the church in the wilderness…" (Acts 7:38). That is the first historical identification of a "church" in the Bible.
As you are all aware, the church came from the wilderness and finally had a permanent home headquartered in the Temple in Jerusalem. But, was as it a holy, righteous, God fearing church? No, contraire.’ It was utterly corrupt.
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Many things that the Church today aspires to are the very things that Paul repented of and called "dung."
The "Jew’s religion" as Paul called it was the true Church of God that settled in Jerusalem after coming out of Egypt and out of the Wilderness. But within a short generation after our Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, the Church of God, at the temple in Jerusalem, came to an end. And to this day, there is no more sacrificing, there is no more a temple and there is no more a Levitic Priesthood.
Ironically, in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, "church" is mentioned in but two Scriptures. In Matt. 18:17 Jesus refers to "the church" and in Matt. 16:18 He refers to "My church" which He said HE would build. And the seven churches in Rev. 2 & 3 are representative of and the personification of the church that Jesus Christ built. It was THAT church that Jesus built, that Paul the Judaic Pharisee, persecuted. Jesus prophesied that the church would be persecuted and scattered:
"And Jesus said unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, ‘I will smite the Shepherd [the Christ], and the sheep shall be SCATTERED" (Mark 14:27).
The church multiplied in numbers very quickly after the Resurrection, but persecution multiplied also:
SEVEN MEANS COMPLETE
The Sabbath or "seventh day" COMPLETES the week. Daniel’s famous prophecy was
"SEVENTY weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish [complete] the transgression, and to make an end [complete] of sins…" (Dan. 9:24).
Seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven plagues complete God’s wrath on mankind. Seven is used over six hundred times in Scriptures. Check if your wish, to see how many times seven shows completeness.
Therefore, how many churches complete THE WHOLE CHURCH OF GOD?
"…write in a book and send it unto the SEVEN churches which are in Asia…" (Rev. 1:11).
Were there not churches (congregations) also in Judea as well? Even in Rome? Why only the seven churches "in ASIA?" Because these seven congregations completed all that Jesus had to say to all congregations, everywhere. This is a COMPLETE revelation for ALL CHURCHES. These seven congregations had within them all of the sins, weaknesses, and shortcomings of all congregations everywhere during ALL TIME. I will make this abundantly and Scripturally clear. But on the positive side, all of the churches had at least a "few names" that were not spiritually defiled, and who will be in the first resurrection as Sons and Daughters of God to bring the rest of the harvest, the great fall harvest into the Kingdom.
These churches that personify in symbol all of God’s church for the past two thousand years, are in fact, the training ground and the proving ground for the elect. Coming out of this carnal system puts one among the called and the chosen and the VERY elect. Paul called it "the HIGH CALLING."
When you go through the messages to the seven churches, you will see a reiteration of the same problems in all the congregations.
It would take me twenty pages to reiterate all the similarities of both sins and rewards found in all seven church congregations, which represent the whole church of God throughout all generations. Here are just a few things that absolutely prove that these seven churches represent God’s complete church though all generations. This is not a dissected church divided up into particular or separate dispensations, ages, or eras.
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ALL OVERCOMERS RECEIVE ALL REWARDS
The whole book of Revelation is a book about the LIFE OF JESUS written for:
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To HIM [any individual member of the churches] that OVERCOMES will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).
Is this the sole reward of "HIM that overcomes?" NO!
There’s more; there’s MUCH MORE:
"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it" (2:17).
"And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (2:26).
"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raimnent; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels" (3:5).
"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name" (3:11).
"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne" (3:21).
No, the overcomers in one congregation, in one generation, don’t get one reward, while the overcomers in a different congregation, in a different generation, gets a different reward. No, a thousand times, "NO"—the overcomers in ALL congregations, in ALL generations, get ALL these rewards. Therefore the prophecies to these churches are written for all the churches of God through all generations.
Perhaps ALL can rejoice over the good news concerning our grand rewards. However, there is a dark side to the Churches of God—darker than Darth Vader—darker than midnight! "What’s good for the goose is good for the gander" (I wonder how easily that translates into other languages).
Just as all the rewards are promised to all the overcomers in all generations of the Church, so likewise, do all the sins and shortcomings apply to all the churches throughout all generations. And the sins and shortcomings of God’s Church are monstrous!
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have REACHED UNTO HEAVEN, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 8:5).
Yes, God is talking about His people, who are in His church, but … BUT, who must nonetheless, "REPENT" (Rev. 2:5 & 5, 16, 21, 22, 3:3, 19—seven times, COMPLETE REPENTANCE), and "COME OUT OF HER." Coming out of her is no small part of this "repentance."
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As long as people think what Jesus taught was physical, and material, and literal, then they will never understand. Were the parables given to enhance understanding? I speak as fool (read Matt. 13). Were the teachings of Jesus, temporary, physical, literal? Let Him answer:
"…the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE" (John 6:63)!
Parables have a SPIRITUAL meaning, and all of Christ’s teachings are SPIRITUAL. And that is because His very "words" ARE SPIRIT! Remember that Revelation is the "revelation OF Jesus Christ," it is HIS testimony. The "words" of His testimony are therefore, also, "SPIRIT."
So once again: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says…" What "who" says? Just "who" is doing the speaking here in Revelation? "…hear what THE SPIRIT says…" It is "the SPIRIT" speaking to the churches, and the words being spoken are those of Jesus, which "words are SPIRIT," and "the LORD [Jesus Christ] is that SPIRIT…" (II Cor. 3:17).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I am sad to say the forum is slowly becoming as much a church as the ones I left years ago. :(
Craig,
I am sorry you feel this way. I believe there is a good purpose for this forum , and for a "few" members, it really has been a blessing. 8)
René
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I can understand why God does not want any of the elect knowing they are the elect..........pride of knowledge usually leads to arrogant’s .
A man can have everything but if he has no love he is only a clanging bell and nothing more.
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The idea of the Elect is not just an idea of one of the denominations of the false church.
It is taught in the Scriptures and thus is from God.
I quickly checked a concordance and found 17 references to the Elect in the Scriptures.
One example is "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." 1Peter 1:1
Thus God knew the Elect in advance, before Creation.
According as he has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Eph 1:4
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People need to chill a little.
Sometimes people use strong language in discussing something important to them.
Those who follow this Way of God, find God and the solid truths in His Scriptures to be all important.
At the conference in Jerusalem, the Apostles and members in attendance had strong words to say. And when they had been much disputing... Acts 15:7 Not just disputing, but much disputing.
Also, Paul got in Peter's face over a dispute between themselves. "withstood him to the face." Gal 2:11
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Not sure what all the emphasis on God hating sin as well as the sinner, it does not take a rocket scientist to understand we hate a person because of what they do, how does one separate the sin from the sinner?
So God hate all sinners but this hatred is only for a season, and when the season ends so won’t Gods hatred towards all sinners.
If your numbered as one of the elect, you had nothing to do with this calling, or if your numbered with all the sinners, you had nothing to do with that calling, for the creature was made in vanity not willingly but by reason of God.
Even the elect are the elect by reason of God and only by reason of God, the elect of God are nothing special on their own or by their own merit or outside of or away from God.
So what about the good news of the bible ? Is it only for the elect ? Maybe you might say yes, its only for the elect but is it only for the elect throughout the ages ? God forbid .
The good news is for everyone because Jesus really is the savior of the world especially of those who believe.
Paul the apostle claimed to be the worlds worst sinner, Jesus saved Paul and He will save all others because Jesus does not fail at anything He does...And that’s Gods promise to all..for the creature was subjected in hope. This is awesome news to me, especially me...Oh how sweet the sound. :)
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Amen......to those whom have eyes they shall see.....to those whom have ears.....let them hear....and to those who are dead.....shall be alive and yet born again.....resurrection is a good thing! Yes good news :)
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May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm! Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]– (Ephesians 1:3-5 AMP) I think I see that his elect were born elect, and the real conversion happens at the first resurrection! Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on in corruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53 KJV) and that the elects time on earth is for there training , Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (1 Corinthians 3:13 KJV) I asked the question about when the elect become the elect because, I had no point of reference when it happened. I had a road to Damascus experience, I seen Gods light and not in the natural. Then I am sure that I left my first love and then did my years in the Church and also had my (Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV ) experience, and then God granted me repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. All the truths that God was opening my eyes to through LRays teachings in the LOF series made me see that I might be apart of this first fruit group. But in my mind I had to have a starting point,or a place that seemed like a conversion? But through the order it happened in my life I now see that if I am apart of the first fruits company then I had to be chosen in Him before the creation of the world and was born destined for his purpose....Thanks for all the great replies they have been a great help, and if I am wrong God will reveal his truth! Like LRay said , we won't know until the first resurrection! But God knows, Glory to God!!
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The truth is............
These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)
So then they are not sinners after their conversion? Do you know have knowledge of anyone on the earth, save for Christ, who are elect or sins no more after their conversion?
I'm not busting your chops, I just wondered.
The whole elect teaching is a doctrine that was really pushed by the WWCG. I grew up Methodist and attended Baptist and Independent congregations for many years and the "Elect" doctrine was not pushed in these churches. The "rapture" "once saved always saved" and "save and pay" was though. I think we put too much emphasis on this "elect" teaching. I have been on the forum longer than about anybody and in all these years there is none that I would suspect being an "elect" except possibly one, but I would not know anyway only God does. We get so caught up worrying about words and the future we don't allow God and Christ to work in us now.
"Elect"? Sure, if you think knowledge makes us special then everyone is elect. But knowledge and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in most places. Everyone in religion claims their knowledge is correct, they have scripture they use to support this; we are different though because we have the "Spirit". Guess what people? All the other religious group makes the same claim.
All is of God, God is working in us to perfect us and knowledge is not all there is.
So does anyone want to know what happens when we die or in the next age? I will tell you and you can take this to the bank. We don't know and we won't know until our time comes, when we become a spirit all the physical laws, thoughts and emotions are different, how can we attempt to explain this when we cannot even begin to fathom the spiritual realm??? We are like a bunch of ants trying to explain nuclear physics.
I am sad to say the forum is slowly becoming as much a church as the ones I left years ago. :(
From one ant to the rest...
Craig
Sin shall not have dominion over to the elect ;)
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Paul wrote: 2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, like an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
That the elect (those chosen) may also obtain the salvation (salvation from what?) which is in Christ Jesus, with age-abiding glory. Hmmm.
Wasn't the Lord Jesus Himself 'saved'? Saved from what? Death? Was He "saved" from death before he died?
I'll ask another question, since we are also to be "saved from sin". Was the Lord Jesus saved from sin? How can a man who never sinned be "saved from sin"? There's a way to be "saved from sin" without ever having sinned. Indeed, it is the BEST way to be saved from sin.
Was He "saved" from anything else? After all, He is the MOST CHOSEN of anything that's ever been chosen.
I've been struggling to stop slinging "bible-words" around as if I know what they mean when what I "think they mean" is the definition I learned in babylon. "Election" is not a theological word...it's a word. SOMEONE does the "electing" and someone else is the one "elected". As often as not, it is translated "chosen", as in "...many are called, few are chosen." Someone chooses, and something is chosen.
How about some 'journalistic' questions? Who, what, when, where and why? Who chooses? What is chosen? When is it chosen (the subject of the OP)? 'Where' may be a bit of a stretch, but we know where Paul was "chosen". Why is it chosen? Does the Chooser tell us anything? Anything at all?
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IS 'the elect' an 'office'? Will it ever be? Why is it not mentioned among the various 'gifts' and 'ministries'?
Is 'the elect' the first-fruit? What's good about being first? What does it mean to be 'first'? If you want to be 'first' how do you go about it? Does it do any good to want to be first?
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Excellent questions Dave,
Jesus said , those who are first shall be last and those who are last shall be first. He also said those who want to be great must be a servant..... not a direct quote..Lol but does not change the meaning .
Seems to me the wisdom of God is the apposite of mans in every way.
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Hi Dave,
Wasn't the Lord Jesus Himself 'saved'? Saved from what? Death? Was He "saved" from death before he died?
I don't think you could say Jesus Christ was 'saved,' He is the Savior (Luke 2:11; Eph 5:23; 2Peter 1:1 and many more). He came as the Savior of the lost, He was never lost.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.
IS 'the elect' an 'office'? Will it ever be? Why is it not mentioned among the various 'gifts' and 'ministries'?
I think the word 'elect' is used just like 'chosen' is and represents the person, not just a gift in the person. It shows that God has separated them out as one of a few from the rest of humanity and sanctified them for His service.
1Cor 6:11 ...But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Is 'the elect' the first-fruit? What's good about being first? What does it mean to be 'first'? If you want to be 'first' how do you go about it? Does it do any good to want to be first?
Not 'the' first-fruit, that is Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
But the elect are first among the people of this world, first-fruits through Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
I think anybody should want to be first, it means being brought up out of this carnal cesspool, the sooner the better. But most importantly it is being used in God's service to help the rest of mankind reach salvation, it's a position only a few will ever have.
But we cannot choose to be an elect, God determined that in the beginning when determining His plan for this creation. But when a person has their eyes opened to the truth of God's plan and who the elect are, then it should be a very joyous hope that we could be an elect of God. It is a long hard race, but at least we know there is a race and we are in it :)
1Cor 9:23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
v. 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Those elect that are sinners before, and after their conversion is now in Christ.
Romans 8
New American Standard Bible
Deliverance from Bondage
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Our Victory in Christ
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So therefore if you are in Christ
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.2Co 5:17
Whereas if the elect to be, if they are still sinners and continuing to sin and without enduring to the end and not stopping to become sinners, then they are not the so called ELECT, because......
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversariesHeb 10:26-27
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Amen Kat :D Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: (Philippians 3:13-20 KJV). I also believe those who are chosen for this high calling don't sin willingly, I guess that's for another post!! :D
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Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'. But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
I'm aware that there are those teaching that Jesus was a sinner. Scripture squashes that for anybody without an idol of the heart to worship. But Jesus did DIE, according to Scripture, and he was 'saved' from death in resurrection.
While there may not be a 'verse' that says Jesus was saved from sin (and many other things), there is a multitude of examples where He who did not sin was 'saved' from sin (and many other things). But not in a way that means the same thing I've heard all my life in church. As I've said before, I am not interested in the least in 'that kind' of "salvation".
If He is to be my example, then in the fullness of time, I'm going to follow Him. No theological hoodoo, no religious assumption, no contradictory doctrinal understanding. I'm going to be saved (as in many ways I have already been saved) from all the things He was saved from...He who did not do or say ANYTHING apart from what His Father gave Him to say or do...who said of Himself, "of my own self, I can do nothing."
Examples?
Saved from Herod as an infant or toddler
Saved from Satan in the Wilderness
Saved from caving in to all manner of temptation (tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin)
Saved from the mob
Saved from the Scribes and Pharisees.
Saved from death.
There were also things He wasn't 'saved from', most notably dying Add being tempted, suffering, losing friends, the pain that comes from wisdom, unrequited love, and others.
I also don't want to have strife over words, but the way I've ended it in my own life is to try hard to understand them without theological baggage or preachers talking in my head. For a few of them (those pesky bible-words), at least, I've been saved already. Thanks, Ray.
I asked those questions out loud because those are the kinds of questions I've been asking in meditation. If they have been worth asking, they already have answers.
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Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'. But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
Dave,
I've been thinking about this statement since you posted it yesterday and I just do not know what you are referring to. Where did Ray teach this? ???
René
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I'll surrender. I really didn't think I was introducing some bizarre new doctrine. If Jesus being raised from the dead isn't being 'saved' from being 'appolumi' (lost, destroyed), then I don't know what it is.
If Jesus being tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin isn't being 'saved' from sin, then I don't know what salvation means. I just know it isn't some spiritual mustard that gets smeared on us before we can "go to heaven". As thanklful as I am for forgiveness and mercy, it's the only "salvation" that matters to me from this point forward, as I can't change the past. I want, like He was, to be empowered, graced, influenced, 'caused' not to sin. And I'm a large part hypocrite even to make THAT statement, because there are plenty of times I DON'T want that. I'm still being 'dragged'.
I'd delete my comments to stop any confusion, but they'd still be there in the quotes and "look" far worse than I ever imagined and certainly intended. Feel free to clean it up any way you see fit, or not.
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From "23 minutes in Hell":
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate, however, context seldom defines the meaning or definition of a word. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavor. The "lost" sheep in the wilderness that wondered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found." There is nothing "eternal" in the use of this word.
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" in the sea (Matt. 8:25). Jesus taught in Luke 5:37 that new wine would cause old wine skins to "perish." In Luke 13:33, Jesus spoke of Himself when He said that a prophet cannot "perish" outside of Jerusalem. Jesus was that Prophet, that did "perish" - was crucified and killed IN Jerusalem.
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" Him. The Pharisees persuaded the Jews to save Barabbas and "destroy" Jesus (Matt. 27:20). And they later did "destroy"--crucify, kill, Jesus. In Luke 9:56, Jesus said:
"For the Son of man is not come to destroy [Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish] men's lives, but to save them."
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Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'. But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
Dave,
I've been thinking about this statement since you posted it yesterday and I just do not know what you are referring to. Where did Ray teach this? ???
René
Sorry, Dave. I still don't get it. Can you post the link to the lesson where Ray taught this? I'm just trying to see where you got this from. That's all.
René
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Sometimes all the questions I have come spilling out like a diet coke with mentos.
The MAIN thing I wanted to share was in answer, however.
Paul wrote: 2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, like an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Paul is talking about 'the elect' saying that they 'may also obtain the 'salvation' which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. "Election" is not 'salvation' if Paul is 'enduring all things' for the elect's sake IN ORDER THAT they may also obtain the salvation...
And that is what set me off trying my puny best to get a few folks to shake off the cobwebs of religious jargon. How are we going to understand THAT verse if we don't understand what 'the elect' and 'salvation' is? And yet I know even as I type this that it will raise more questions than it answers. Oh well, the truths of God are deeper than the surface. I learned that from Ray too. ;)
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Rene, it's in the my post directly above yours. I'll go back and bold it.
OK...although I put 'lost' in quotation marks, I admit that Ray did not say it as I said it. He chose his words more carefully than I did and, although the Scripture wasn't written in English, I misquoted Ray.
No, I did more than 'misquote him'. I misrepresented what he said with that statement.
Do what you want.
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Rene, it's in the my post directly above yours. I'll go back and bold it.
OK...although I put 'lost' in quotation marks, I admit that Ray did not say it as I said it. He chose his words more carefully than I did and, although the Scripture wasn't written in English, I misquoted Ray.
No, I did more than 'misquote him'. I misrepresented what he said with that statement.
Do what you want.
Brave enough.................Salute!