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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Jackie Lee on March 15, 2007, 11:15:15 PM
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I plan to reads Ray's paper again on freewill.
I wanted to ask if where we live the type of Job's we have the number of children we have or will have the husband or wife we marry is this God's will our just our choices?
I am a bit confused on freewill so anything you have to offer will be a great help.
Thanks Jackie
PS... I do plan to read that again tonight, some things just seem to go past me.
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Hi Jackie Lee,
These are the scripture that show me that God has worked everything to be as it is.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
I believe that God has directed my steps that have lead me through this life. I may have made choices, but they were all by His design so things would go exacty as they did.
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat that really helps me, I have been feeling so guilty because of leaving the area my mother lives in.
I was trying to help her but everything I did just seemed to backfire.
My sister lives there thank God.
I liked it in the South that is where I was born and raised.
My husband and I both just wasn't sure what to do things seemed so wrong to be there even though it was pleasant for the most part.
Now I am 400 miles away and I still feel guilty.
She is old now and I feel like such a failure not being there for her, even though I call almost daily.
I just need to get over the guilt of not being there but at this time there is no choice but to be here.
It does make me feel better knowing I am where I am suppossed to be.
I appreciate your answer. :)
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Hi Jackie Lee,
I can sympathize with your feelings of guilt. Until I came to understand God's sovereignty in all things, I felt guilty over many things, and I had many regrets. Now I see that all things are necessary in his plan whether we understand them or not. And believe me most of the time I DON'T understand what God is doing through me, at least not until long after.
A counterpart to the scripture Kat included is this one:
Proverbs 20:24 ESV
24 A man's steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?
Indeed, how can man understand his way!!! It's a mystery. It's still bind boggling to me that the Lord uses our evil intents and behavior for good:
Genesis 50:20 ESV
20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Perhaps you might consider that you being away from your mom is the best possible scenario for both of you. This may be the catalyst for much growth for both of you. Either way, God is working out His will for you and your mom in your lives. Even if it feels like you have done the "wrong" thing, I believe it has its most necessary purpose. Besides, your heart shows forth the concern you have for your mom and in wanting the best for her.
You wouldn't be 400 miles away if God wasn't "directing your steps".
Peace,
Diana
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Diana thank you so much your reply was an affirmation to me.
Last night when I was trying to figure out why so many blunders, this me thinking was one of the worst... leaving my poor old mom alone.
Anyway thoughts kept pouring in my head, God was showing me if I had stayed it would have ruined a relationship not only between my mother and me but also my sister.
I have always felt guilt with things and he is relieving me of guilt.
I am sure it won't leave overnight but it is better today and anticipating with the power of God it will just be a memory soon.
Once again I want to thank you and Kat for being an instrument of God to fix me....lol :D
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Hi all,
I was just wondering whats the differance between "Freewill" & "Choice", So I need to get this clear!, whatever we do!, whatevers happened is GODS will for each of us??. So then haha!, If that is so, So then that means whatever, whoever is doing in their lives is GODS Will for them? is this meaning the choices We make are really Not our own anyway But! GODS!?. So again in saying all that brings me to the conclusion if whatever Ive just said is Right!, then all the so called TeleEvangist!, the corrupt Pastors, Preachers is GODS will for them??? Please HELP!! me understand this PLEASE!!
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Hi Pera I have wondered the same.
I do understand a bit that freewill is not possible because there is a cause behind every choice we make.
For instance I could want to live in Australia but my husband would want to live in the states so because there is a cause behind this I may not be able to live in Australia.
We have no freewill when we are borned or when we will die and aparently none inbetween... :D
I hope I am on the righ track and not misleading anyone.
I am still learning and freewill is a bit of a stumbling block for me.
I just keep going over his papers on freewill and I understand more each time.
Someone *please* correct me if I am wrong.
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I posted this today on another board concerning freewill...
I have considered once again freewill.
There can be no freewill unless there is no cause.
As much as I would like to believe I have freewill it is just an illusion.
Job had no freewill.
Pharoh had no freewill.
Peter had no freewill when he denied Jesus 3 times.
Judas had no freewill when he betrayed Jesus.
There are many other examples also that is throughout the scriptures.
I was called a fatalist and should consider Islam with my fatalist view.
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Hi Jackie Lee,
wow! I hope ur right! lol! coz U are making sum more sense to me lol!!
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Hi Pera,
As I understand it, we can make choices, and in fact make hundreds of choices in any given day. This in itself does not mean these choices are "free". Our God is Sovereign and is literally in control of EVERYTHING. He designed us and built us in such a way that we are spiritually weak...we are pulled constantly by our own lusts inherent in our carnal flesh. This is in itself shows that carnal man is not free. Everything in this whole universe is governed by the laws of cause and effect. Just because we are not AWARE of what is causing our choices doesn't mean there isn't a cause. (Behind every cause is God). And as long as there is a cause than our will is simply not "free".
The sections in Ray's writings are quite lengthy but they are so worth going through, even a few times. Ray will take you through every twist and turn and back up everything with scripture. It becomes clearer and clearer for me the more I study it.
There is also a great audio on free will here:
http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill2.mp3
This was probably the hardest truth for me to embrace but with much study, reflection, meditation on the scriptures and mega prayer I finally started to get it! So be patient if it's not all clear at first. It's worth studying out however, because understanding that we have no free will is actually quite "freeing".... ;)
Peace,
Diana
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Hi All,
I just want to Amen what Diana said. One thing that we must be careful about and that is.....we have a will.....it's just not a free will. The difference is that our choices are made from our circumstances. Example: Ray says that a computer can make millions of choices but has no free will. Not that we are computers, but we have something that causes us to make these choices whether they be evil influences or spiritual influences. In the end, God is working all things according to the council of His own will...and that includes all the choices that all mankind makes.
In Him,
Dwight
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Thanks it is starting to make more sense even though it still confuses me a bit.
It seems almost like splitting hairs but yet I am starting to get it.
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I was called a fatalist and should consider Islam with my fatalist view.
When I first considered the idea of man having no "free" will I definitely struggled with it, but in the sense that I WANTED it to be true, even KNEW it to be true, but just didn't know HOW it could be true. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it. I have a dear friend who saw and accepted it right away, it seemed barely a struggle for her but that is not to say she doesn't have questions.
Others I've tried to share this with resisted immediately. They don't WANT it to be true. I've thought about this and I know part of it is because we are all different and even if God is opening someone's eyes to it they will still work through to understanding it in different ways. However, I also think that if they yet haven't seen their beast then they are not even ready to understand. It is simply not their time yet. If a person hasen't seen or understood themselves as the beast then the beast is still firmly on the throne of his heart....it does not WANT to get off, it does not WANT to relinquish its illusion of power. I have a feeling this is why some reactions that I've received were along the lines of: "Well, if we have no free will than God is a dictator tyrant forcing us to do everything!" "We are merely puppets!" They insist that if there is no free will than God is even FORCING us to love him! This is the flesh speaking. The carnal mind cannot understand God, it's AGAINST him!
The beast is being threatened and retaliates. If they still believe in eternal hell than they really do believe God is a tyrant. But we who have been blessed with understanding that God is truly LOVE, understand that he is not forcing, but rather inspiring, training and causing us to go one way or the other. He is molding us with a loving hand.
In Ray's audio he made a statement that really stuck with me:
"Sure, it would not be fun to be forced to, for example, write a book that you don't want to write, but it's wonderful to be inspired to write a book that you can't wait to write!"
I believe the carnal mind does not understand this difference. So you will have the spiritual side that weeps with joy at this truth, and you have the carnal side within you that rejects it. In my struggle I was able thankfully to recognize the two sides. Those who react with anger and disdain, do not even SEE their carnality and they don't see it because God simply hasn't given them eyes to see it yet.
If you don't even know that you, the beast, are on the throne, than you can't possibly be interested in wanting him off!
Jacke Lee, in your struggles to understand this, the evidence that right now in you, God is kicking the beast off the throne is beautifully apparent. This is something to greatly rejoice over, even if you don't yet understand the whole concept. It is why you are even here, at this forum, bringing up this question in the first place. It's God working in you...
John 15:5 MKJV
5 I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Peace and God bless,
Diana
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Good post Diana.
CIY
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Hi Diana,
Your post was very well put :)
I like the point you made about the carnal mind can not except this truth and the spiritual weeps with joy at this truth.
if God is opening someone's eyes to it they will still work through to understanding it in different ways. However, I also think that if they yet haven't seen their beast then they are not even ready to understand.
I believe the carnal mind does not understand this difference. So you will have the spiritual side that weeps with joy at this truth, and you have the carnal side within you that rejects it.
mery, peace, and love
Kat
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Thank you again Diana it is almost bitter sweet, but yet I am so glad to know that I have a will and it is not without a cause.
Many times I had wondered why things work out so unusually strange.
Yet I have never had to miss a meal not once.
I have always had a decent place to live but yet sometimes my life seems like a roller coaster with some serious health problems and regrets of thinking I should have did better.
I have learned to depend on God.
Even before I found Ray's papers and this board I knew in my inner being surely God was bringing me to this point.
I have had deep regrets as we all have but I look at it differently now.
I see it as like you said Diana.. freedom knowing I am where I am suppossed to be at this time.
There are things I am still getting a grip on but I am understanding more every day.
The Beast will be my next study even though I have went over it, I Need to get a better understanding, even though I don't doubt for one minute I am the BEAST.
PRIDE.
Funny thing is not to be judging I see the beast in family members too.
I can't tell them that yet though, because it is not time and I may not be the one to even mention it at all.
God showed me through experiences so I would think he will show them.
Family members are the last that will take one serious anyway.
At least in my case. :D
Sometimes I feel so self involved I make myself Sick, it seems whenever I post it is always about me.
I really need to improve could this be the BEAST in me?
I am really thinking so.
Well anyway I am glad everyone here is patient and understand.
Thanks for letting me bend your ear. :)
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Sorry I really don't have anything to add. I just re read this entire thread and was really blessed.
Free will is a tough one for me- so freeing as far as looking back at my "mistakes"- but confusing when we think of God causing us to do evil.
I agree that rereading and prayer and rereading and study and trusting the Lord to open our eyes at the right time is the only way out of confusion.
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Hi Jackie Lee,
It is a really good idea to reread Ray's articles :)
I have noticed that when I read something the first time, even though I get a lot out of it, what I have determined is that I learn about things later in the article that I need to understand things in the beginning. So the things I read in the beginning of the article I need to reread to gain understanding from the things I learned later in the article. Does that make sense :-\
And that goes for all the articles, I learn things in every article that I need to understand things in other articles.
So there is this cycle of reading and rereading, but I gain more and more all the time.
So I hope you can make sense of this, because I think it means you really do need to read back over things to keep yourself growing in a deeper knowledge.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat you are right, I may not be understanding as much as I should be.
Thanks I will keep reading. :)
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Sorry I really don't have anything to add. I just re read this entire thread and was really blessed.
Free will is a tough one for me- so freeing as far as looking back at my "mistakes"- but confusing when we think of God causing us to do evil.
I agree that rereading and prayer and rereading and study and trusting the Lord to open our eyes at the right time is the only way out of confusion.
Yes That is so true.
I have just had my eyes opened enough to see I have so much more to learn.
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I will get to understand in JESUS name
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While I understand the concept of making choices, or making a choice which is the only possible choice we could have made in any situation, and since our lives are preordained, then likewise, our choices are preordained. So since none of us can make a choice other then what we are preordained to choose, then I have a hard time understanding how God does not preordain our sins.
I mean, Ray even said, that God even pre-arranges [which is basically preordains] our marriages, who we will marry or even if we will ever get married. And Ray also said God even pre-arranges the bad marriages. So if God is that much envolved in our lives, then why not also in our sins? Is that part.....dare I say.... our own free will? But Ray doesn't believe in free will [and I'm not necessarily saying I do] so without
free will, then we didn't freely choose to sin......... we just couldn't choose otherwise. See what I'm saying? Confusing.
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Sorin,
Kat provided the following email response from Ray that I think will benefit you. Ray makes a very good case against the difference between foreordained and foreknowlegde. :)
Hope you don't mind me butting in :)
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
Thanks Kay for posting this ....
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.0.html (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.0.html) --------------
Dear Sean and Forum:
Regarding your statement: "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND." The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie" and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING? Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it. Hope you will all be patient.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Sorin,
This is a difficult thing to comprehend.
Here is a interesting scripture I found.
Eze 14:21 `For thus said the Lord Yahweh:Although My four sore judgments--sword, and famine, and wild beast, and pestilence--I have sent unto Jerusalem, to cut off from it man and beast,
v. 22 yet, lo, there has been left in it an escape, who are brought forth, sons and daughters, lo, they are coming forth unto you, and you have seen their way, and their doings, and have been comforted concerning the evil that I have brought in against Jerusalem, all that which I have brought in against it."
v. 23 And they have comforted you, for you see their way and their doings, and you have known that not for nought have I done all that which I done in herthat not for nought have I done all that which I have done in her--an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh.'"
I think in verse 21 God is referring to the evil experience we have in this life.
In verse 22 could this escape be talking about ultimate salvation for all, for means of the elect, sons and daughters.
And in verse 23 I think He is saying in the grand scheme of things, if you look at the big picture, this evil experience is worth it.
It is hard to see out pass this present suffering. But then again I don't remember a lot of the things of my childhood, with very good clarity now(even tho. at 50 that was some time ago ::) ).
What I am saying these evil experiences will not be remember for very long, especially when there will be so much wonder to behold when we escape this flesh body. We will still have the experience in our knowledge, but the suffering I just don't believe will be something we ever think on, because when we are at one with God it will all be good. And we will know it is good, because we know what is bad.
Do you see what I mean?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat last night when I was attempting to sleep The thought came to me That in comparsion to what God has prepared for us the suffering rapes murders all of these things will be worth it all.
The people that has had all these evil things happen would not of had it any other way.
I am not sure if this was God or just me trying to figure this thing of life out.
I like Sorin, am having a hard time with all the evil that happens especially to defenseless children.
My spirit tells me though Ray is right on freewill.
I think free will is the lie that is so hard to relent to.
I have always believed through years of churching that I had freewill and everything good or bad was my own doing, not of God.
This is so hard for me to understand, but yet I understand if that makes sense.
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Hi Jackie,
When I lay awake in bed at night, when it is quiet and dark is when I can relax and hear God the best.
I do understand what you are saying.
This is so hard for me to understand, but yet I understand if that makes sense.
It seems when you come to an understanding of the Truth, you know it is true, but you can't explain it. Over time as God continues to add to that understanding you get to where you can articulate it somewhat.
But even even if you understand something from all God has shown you, how do you translate all that info. to somebody you are trying to explain it to ???
The church yrs.(and I had many) were difficult with all the false teachings, but I don't think I am naive like I use to be either. And I'm not naive now because I was naive then, the experience taught me. You see what I mean?
I like to discuss these things it help me greatly :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat last night when I was attempting to sleep The thought came to me That in comparsion to what God has prepared for us the suffering rapes murders all of these things will be worth it all.
Jackie, I think about that too. That what God is working in us will far exceed our pain and suffering in this life. It's pretty awesome to think about. It reminds me of this scripture.
Romans 8:18
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
I like what you said Kat:
The church yrs.(and I had many) were difficult with all the false teachings, but I don't think I am naive like I use to be either. And I'm not naive now because I was naive then, the experience taught me. You see what I mean?
We learn and grow from our experiences and I believe that is the way God planned it.
Blessings, Paula :)
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Hi Guys,
The horrendous evil that is being done in the world to children and adults by fellow human beings is simply incomprehensible. I continue to struggle with this one as well. What is even scarier is to contemplate that these depths of evil exist in me but were stayed by the hand of God. It's weird because I do understand that I am no better than the child molester while at the same time I couldn't possibly imagine myself doing similar acts. But I think: what if I had lived that person's life?
I rarely watch tv anymore but last night for some reason, I flicked on a once favorite channel, A&E and watched part of an interview between the Iceman and a top notch psychiatrist. Apparently the Iceman was a hitman for the mafia. What struck me is that he didn't understand, nor could he explain, why he was capable of the horrendous acts that he did. He knew he was doing things that would make a "normal" person's stomach churn, but he just didn't experience the feelings of repulsion or even remorse. I've seen a similar response in other mass murderers (years ago I used to be fascinated with the criminal mind). Even if they know what they are doing is wrong and vile, they don't feel anything about it.
So what is God doing with these people? Has he turned off in them the otherwise normal mechanism the rest of us have called a conscience? And what about people like Jeffrey Dahmer who actually was horrified at his own actions and specifically did things so he would get caught. He was relieved when he finally ended up in jail. He wanted to stop but couldn't stop himself.
Doesn't this sound familiar? Don't most of us want to stop the varying degrees of evil that we are doing yet often can't? It's like God has created us in these bodies of sin, designed to sin, and then gives different people varying degrees of his spirit to overcome different degrees of sin. Why God does it this way remains a mystery to me. So while He may not directly force us to sin, by withholding His spirit, and thereby the power to overcome the sin, the evil runs rampant. I may be wrong, but this is how I am understanding it right now.
This scripture helps me somewhat, though it is not the most satisfying answer:
Romans 9:21-23 ESV
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
I find this translation of the same verses interesting as well:
Romans 9:21-23 NLT
21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
22 God has every right to exercise his judgment and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgment and are fit only for destruction.
23 He also has the right to pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy--
So it seems to me that God has made some of us specifically for honorable use and some of us specifically for dishonorable use.
2 Timothy 2:20 ESV
20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.
Yet at the same time we are all sown in dishonor:
1 Corinthians 15:43 ESV
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
I still strive to understand why it is necessary to be this way. Maybe we will never have full understanding until the resurrection.
I hope Ray will be able to write a paper on this theme soon, as this is such a difficult subject to grasp...
Peace to you my fellow strugglers,
Diana
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Hi Diana,
We all continue to struggle with the reason for all this evil, and the depth to which some will sink in their depraved actions toward other human beings.
I have come to think that there needs to be every kind of wickedness done, with nothing left out, so that it will prove the scripture;
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
This was before before the flood, and don't forget;
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
It is a great blessing that we all don't have to experience doing these evils. But we all know that humans are capable of these horrindous things because we hear about them. Maybe some few are the examples to the rest of us as to what humanity is capable of, and thus we don't all have to experience it ourselves.
It is such a difficult thing to comprehend, but I am convinced we will not carry these terrible things, whether by knowledge of them or experience of them, with us very long after we are at one with God.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi all,
These all have been excellent questions and comments. Where else can we learn these depths of God but through His very chosen?
This, like all of the deep things of God, are hidden from the wise and the strong of this world and revealed to the weak and to babes. I really believe that all the evil in this world is for our benefit. This sounds very strange, but the scriptures prove from the beginning that this is so. When God created the heavens and the earth, there was only darkness...then God said let there be light. We cannot know light without darkness. In the Garden of Eden, there was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and there was also the tree of life. God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They could not know life without knowing good and evil and death.
When Joseph (a type of the elect) was exposing his brethern for their evil to his father, they were very wroth with him and sought to do him evil. And they did evil to him and sold him to Egypt and he was cast into an evil prision. Then you know the rest of the story and in the end Joseph said, " But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen. 50:20.
Joshua and Caleb, when they came back to Moses, they said the the giants in the land will be meat for us. None of the other spies believed them, but God used all the evil of the nations to bring His people into His rest. If there are no enemies there is no victory.
How can we have life without death? How can we know good without evil? God is working all of these things, especially evil, to good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose.
I know that abused children, and starving people, and wars, and death, and famine is not what we like or think our loving Father is like, and He isn't, but He uses all these things to our good. We need to see His hand in everything and in everything gives thanks to God.
We were just like those who are under the wrath of God. But He chose us before the foundation of the earth and has every right to do with us as He wills, " And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Jer. 18:4.
May the Lord shine His light on all of us.
In Him,
Dwight
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Beautiful post Dwight!
It is true, though our finite minds may not completely comprehend it, ALL is for the benefit of good.
We cannot know light without darkness.
I have often contemplated the truth of this. The scriptures, of course, speaks volumes on this. And life and the world all around us attests to this truth as well.
A baby pushes forth with much struggle from a darkened womb to the light of a new world to grow into its own unique life.
A seedling pushes forth with much struggle from the darkened earth to the light of the sun to blossom into something beautiful.
A muscle of the body coming up continually against resistance grows in strength and stamina.
The darkness and the struggle always comes first but eventually this gives birth to something greater and more glorious.
I always use to wonder why the evening came first:
Genesis 1:5 ESV
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
but now I see it's an example of a pattern, a parable. In biblical times, the evening was the start of the day. Darkness always comes first.
Psalms 30:5 MKJV
5 Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.
1 Corinthians 15:46 ESV
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
I use to wonder why on earth women have to go through such pain to birth children. Why did God curse them? But perhaps this is also a parable. Babies experience the trauma of birth, but no less does the mother experience the trauma along with her child. Do you even remember any details of your birth experience? But I can assure your mother remembers it well!
Is this perhaps God's experience? Though we struggle, He feels our pain. It is not in his heart to have us suffer. He doesn't stand by in comfortableness waiting for us to get through it, but suffers and weeps along with us. Our Savior is not one who does not understand the depths of ALL experiences. I'm not saying God gets caught up in our fleshly emotions. But our Savior did come in the flesh and he knows...he understands...
And as earthly parents, we would gladly take on the trials and suffering we know our children must endure in their lives, and spare them from it. Yet deep within we know that they MUST go through it. We know that even if we could shelter them from all evils we would end up with spoiled needy children who cannot live productive lives of their own. But is their a loving devoted parent alive that doesn't go through each trial along with their child?
When Joseph (a type of the elect) was exposing his brethern for their evil to his father, they were very wroth with him and sought to do him evil. And they did evil to him and sold him to Egypt and he was cast into an evil prision. Then you know the rest of the story and in the end Joseph said, " But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen. 50:20.
Love this story of Joseph!
Before Joseph revealed who he really was to his brothers he put them through many trials/tests. Does anyone imagine he enjoyed doing this to his own brothers? Eventually he was overcome with emotion:
Genesis 45:1-2 NIV
1 Then Joseph could no longer control himself before all his attendants, and he cried out, "Have everyone leave my presence!" So there was no one with Joseph when he made himself known to his brothers.
2 And he wept so loudly that the Egyptians heard him, and Pharaoh's household heard about it.
If Joseph is a type of Christ/Elect than this is OUR SAVIOR WEEPING!
No, it is not in our father's heart that we should endure pain, but it is in his wisdom that we must endure the darkness to find the light. It's His perfect plan. In this I trust.
Peace and love to you all,
Diana
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God has given all of you so much of his Wisdom I didn't realize there was such people.
I want to mention the sins of our youth, has anyone noticed when they were younger how much easier it was to sin.
Now that some of us are older it is hard to imagine the things we did then.
Yet the things of our youth brought us here to understand how God works.
To teach us.
The things we did and the regrets too I see now how wretched we really are.
Another thing is circumstances and the kind of family we are born into has a big part of the things we go through.
This just proves to me I could have been a Jeffery Dahlmer or a Hitler Son of Sam I could have been the vilest of the vile.
I am just greatful he doesn't destroy me, Now I understand the scripture we are all as filthy rags.
For this I am so greatful I was born into the family I was born in.
Anyone feel free to correct me on anything. :)
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Jackie, thank you for that insight.
Diana, I loved that birthing analogy.
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Great post Dwight, I see somebody beat me to the punch on thanking you for your insightful and on target reply.
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Yes my brother Dwight
You express the Sovereignty of our Lord to remind us that He is the ONE and we are HIS. Thank you.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I am new to this forum.....And just recently found Ray's website.......
Free will is something I have been contemplating lately and have some thoughts on it..Not answers..
If the actions of man are not under his own controll, then do we actually commit sin ? Does this mean
Hitler did not really murder millions of Jews and Christians ? Does this mean that when the pagans of ancient times murdered there own children by cutting there throats from ear to ear in sacrifice to there false gods, that it was not there fault, it was predestined for them to do this ?
As you can see, one could carry this to quit and extreme .
But I currently have no definitive answer. Still searching for a more simple understandable answer.
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Hi disciple,
I'm glad you have joined us here.
The subject of free will is a topic that is discussed here quite often, because it is so difficult to comprehend. You must read and reread Ray's articles and the scripture that he shows to hope to come to an understanding.
I have found an email that answers your question, but this will only get you started.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Chris:
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Welcome to the Forum Disciple :)
The free will subject is as broad as it is long. It is huge and spans thousands of years of questions debates, doubts and assumptions. We have here at Bible Truths, the magnificent blessing of having these teachings on the Myth of Free Will available. They are epic in their scope and breathtaking in their depth and most satisfying in their healing properties of deliverance from error. You will find these teachings under the Lake of Fire part 15 A,B,C, and D on the home page. Enjoy! What a gift it is!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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AND the most wonderful part is this world is exactly where God determined it to be on this day (my birthday) before HE ever created it. NOW, that is a load off of my mind..................Rick
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Hi rick,
Well I hope this day is a great started to another year (http://bestsmileys.com/birthday2/5.gif)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Welcome Disciple,
I'm so glad you decided to join us. I know many of your questions will be answered in the weeks to come. Just pray that the Lord will open your eyes because only he can. All of us here can only see when He lets us see. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt. 7:7.
Happy birthday Rick....may this be your best yet!!! ;D ;D ;D
Your brother,
Dwight
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Welcome Disciple. Read as much as yu can on Ray's site. You will get lots of answers there. Here you will get answers as well. Hope to be hearing from you.
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I do plan to read that again tonight, some things just seem to go past me.
Jackie Lee,
I believe some things (revelation) we have to get with the heart (spirit) THROUGH THE SPIRIT before we can get it with the head. John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
With Ray, and the level he's on (and I earnestly believe in Christ) some things are just so deep. I was practically beating my head with some of the knowledge he shares. I just can't grasp hold of some of it right now. Proverbs 25:11 - A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. We have to know what we can digest.
Anyway, before I go any further, I would like to comment on something I just said. With what I said concerning (and I earnestly believe in Christ),Please, I don't mean that in a deragatory since or to put someone in skepticism and doubt.I'm just becoming aware that there's so much going on behind the scenes in the spiritual. I'm learning not to judge no one one way or another. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 - But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.I believe everything is in accordance with and to God's will.
Okay now with that said, I believe some things we won't understand unless we have the Spirit and when the Spirit is ready to reveal it. 1 Corinthians 2:10 - But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.God's Spirit speaks through THE WORD. His wisdom is revealed in time through the WORD. Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I hope i didn't go to far off on a tangent...
IN HIS LOVE,
Bradford
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AMEN Bradford AMEN
God Bless You
Sandie
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Hi Bradford,
That was really well put.
You are so right, it is all by the Spirit.
I believe some things we won't understand unless we have the Spirit and when the Spirit is ready to reveal it. 1 Corinthians 2:10 - "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." God's Spirit speaks through THE WORD. His wisdom is revealed in time through the WORD. Proverbs 4:7 - "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Just when I thought I would leave this board because of my ignorance.. I seem to have a hard time with some things.
Then especially Kat and Bradigans postings made this so simple Even a child could understand....Thank you