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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Drew on May 03, 2011, 10:03:24 PM
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Recently, I don't remember the context, Mr. Smith said and someone else reminded us that the whole scripture is one giant PARABLE. With that in mind, and that our God doesn't lie. What are we to make of these scriptures? Ecl.1:5 The sun rises, and the sun sets and gasps back to it's place that it may rise there once more. Josh.10:13 So the sun stood still...Isa.38:8 And the sun turned back ten steps... Do I believe man says that the Earth revolves around the Sun or that the Sun, and that would imply every thing else, revolves around the Earth? Everyone I have known has accepted that the Sun is the center of our Universe. My spouse, who used to work with a Physicist, asked him how that could be proved. His answer was you would have be outside of our Universe to observe it, so it really can't be proved. Scripture states the facts whether man believes them or not. Am I missing something? Has Mr. Smith ever addressed this question or it just not that important? Anyone?
Drew
P.S. I am aware that two of the refs. were in the category of miracles but not Ecl. and many others that refer to the Sun rising and setting.
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I for one accept what the scriptures say, as opposed to what man in his convoluted interpretations may promote.
By way of analogy only, Mark 2:27-28
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Joel
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Ray certainly believes that the earth revolves around the sun. For more reference, check out the Nashville '08 conference materials.
I know that there is minority science that 'disputes' that, but understand that their 'disputing' is based on definitions and what can be 'observed'. Ordinarily, science watns to describe what can be observed. Motion only exists in relationship to other motion. If I am standing still with a butterfly floating around my head, that is a description from my head's perspective. The butterfly experiences the motion (and therfor describes it) differently. Now suppose I'm on a 12-foot escalator going downstairs with the same butterfly flying around my head. I and the butterfly experience and describe our motion the same way, but someone at the bottom of the escalator observes it (and therefor describes it) differently.
Now imagine that the escalator is on a moving steam ship being oberved by a bird who is flying counter to the motion of the butterfly. And this scene is observed by a US Spy satellite technician who has more interest in the movement of the forty- foot Tsunami soon to pass under our hull towards the coast of Chile, than in the fate of the butterfly.
The very nature of the universe and the relationship of the many motions contained in it cannot be "observed" except from a postion outside the universe. There IS no position outside the Universe. If anybody thinks there is, they have no idea what a universe is. :D So, there CANNOT BE any observation of all the motions contained in the universe. Therefor what careful science says is that it cannot be 'proven'. And that is true.
With earth-based observation coupled with mathmatics, there is a tremendous amount of 'inferred' safety in saying that the earth and other planets actually DO revolve around the sun. And we HAVE put 'observation' posts outside of our solar system in the form of missions to the outer planets and beyond. We can with great safety also infer that all the other solar systems in the galaxy revolve around their 'suns'. And from that safely infer that every other galaxy works essentially the same way.
As for scripture, God created the Heavens and the Earth. That's everything. And in ONE verse, GOD moves His point of observation from the Heavens to the Earth. What follows is an inspired description of events from the perspective of the Earth--particularly the surface of the waters. The passages you mention continue in that vein to describe events from man's point of view.
I'm not a scientist. That's the best I can do. I have zero interest in debating science. I like science because it is not a matter of opinion or 'faith'. It's a matter of understanding or not understanding. Science itself is about being wrong until you learn what's right. That is exactly what my life has been like. I think we've found what is 'right' concerning the relative motions of the Sun and the planets, including the earth. It seems kind of unfair (if not tongue in cheek) to require someone to break every law of physics and existense to prove it.
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Dave,
I certainly don't want to belabor this, however, I have heard the argument before regarding perspective. I just find it difficult to accept that God inspired Solomon to write what he did when the inspiration could have just as easily have been "the Sun (appears) to rise ... etc." Why, for instance, is it so difficult to believe that God could just as effortlessly "whirl" the, so called,Solar System around the the earth? I also realize that it really isn't a matter of capability but rather back to, why He would make it appear to be what it isn't? Especially, since over and over He inspired "the Sun rises and sets"! There are reasons that the Lord sends delusions but why this particular allusion? My argument probably isn't flawless but this is particularly fun to me because I want to believe scripture and not "the wisdom of man" in all cases. I honestly don't think there is any harm in that. What do you think?
Respectfully,
Drew
Drew
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Drew,
To find out a bit more, google Zodiac of Dendera and do some research for yourself. Hope this does not break any forum rules, just making a suggestion.
george.
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Opps, I went a little overboard in my response. Inexperence! I was trying to correct "allusion" to the proper "illusion". Hopefully I'll do better next time.
Drew
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What is a 'delusion'. It's something that appears to be true, but isn't.
Why is 'free-will' a delusion. It appears to be true, but it isn't.
It appears the sun rises and sets. It doesn't.
You're asking a question about why God would make the earth move relative to the sun and inspire scripture that says the sun rises. I don't know the High Mind of God. Maybe He wanted to trap us for centuries into absolute literalism and tradition, and then free us to understand there is more to the Word of God than meets the eye. Since that's what's happened, that's surely one reason why He's done it.
It's not like He doesnt operate in a similar fashion in other things. Jesus didn't speak in parables so that His teachings would be easily understood, as a prime example. Why 'wonder why He did that'?
There are statements in scripture that would seem to say that man makes uncaused choices, if one is prone to believe that way. They don't mean that at all. It's the relative vs. the Absolute. In like manner, people STILL say "sunrise" and "sunset"--it doesn't bother me that they said it in the bible too. Most of the people who say it now, know better. I can't be sure that the writers of the Old Testament scripture DIDN'T know better. And if they didn't? So what? They didn't know any number of things that have since been revealed.
Anyways. It's possible Ray may have something more (and hopefully more convincing) soon. In the meantime, let's remember this is Bible-Truths.com. "Agreeing" is not a requirement, but it shouldn't be asking too much of us to hold this place dear for those of us who do.
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Possibly there has been miscommunication on my part and for that I apologize. I certainly have no intentions of trying to prove my position correct and Mr Smith's and your's wrong;if I'm wrong, so what? Another humbling experience, maybe? It has just been an interesting question in my mind for years. You are aware, I'm sure, that being of a minority opinion isn't nessasarily a bad thing. I look forward to hearing Mr Smith's further thoughts on this and other thoughts from scripture. I have much respect for his opinion and yours for that matter. I'll say no more regarding this. I do realize you are a moderator and I respect you for that. I'm a new kid on the block and certainly don't want to create dissension.
Respectfully,
Drew
Drew
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Hi Drew,
As Dave said, It appears the sun rises and sets. It doesn't.
This is not very difficult to understand. When you're at a train station, it appears the train next to you is moving, when it really isn't.
When you're driving away from your friend, it can appear like he is moving away from you.
It appears the sky is blue, but it really isn't [that's just reflected light from the sun]. Yet because it is convenient, we say "The sky is blue".
Even though the sun isn't really "setting", it's more convenient (and poetic) to say "Look at that beautiful sunset!" rather than say "Look at all of those beautiful colors as the earth completes its axis rotation!" 8)
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Drew, no apologies necessary. If this thing has been on your mind for years, it is only because the Lord has caused it to be there. Just be aware that He causes things for reasons we do not always understand until after the fact--if even then. He sets us up, and knocks us down. Blessed be the name of the Lord. :D
Thanks for your understanding.
Do good.
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Everyone I have known has accepted that the Sun is the center of our Universe.
To Gods elect, that is precisely what we should believe in,that The Son is the center of our universe within our hearts and minds and to dwell in that universe is to dwell in heaven,with Christ Jesus. I have come to realize that the universe that is within us all is of a far more complex and intricate vacuum then the physical one that lies without.
It amazes me sometimes that when we read Scripture we all have a tendency to look more so at the outward application of the Word and gloss over the real meaning of what is being said,that being,the Spiritual significance of Gods Word. Remember Christ himself says that His words are Spirit, His Words,not ours,but His. We of ourselves cannot add life to His words,only God can do that. People have been debating science for hundreds, even thousands of years and the best that we can come up with is only what The Lord causes humanity to understand,right or wrong.
Lets face it, the best any carnal human being can come to realize in the big scheme of things basically comes down to being self righteous,as in,am I right and what's in it for me (I want my reward and I want it now). As long as the beast sits on the throne we will never be able to be pure of heart. After all ,is this not why we are on this planet to begin with,to learn righteousness and follow in Jesus' footsteps?
If we can put on our Spiritual thinking caps and really read what the Lord is causing us to see,if one has been given the Spiritual eyes to see,a whole new universe will open up,leaving the physical understanding secondary to the primary Spiritual one. As it has been repeated many times here,we have to read all the words. Although all of the Word of God has an outward application it is not the primary way of coming to the understanding of what is being said. When we look for the inward meaning of what the Word is saying through Scripture then the purpose of the Word shines like the sun,as in,our Son.
Jesus The Christ is our S-U-N.
Instead of thinking the word sun is what is being spoken of here in Ecc1:5 lets try to see that the true reference given is 'The Son'.
Take a look at the Rotherhams version of the verse in question.
If we come from an understanding of what Ray has taught us about Scripture being symbolic and that the Bible is one giant parable the verse below and all of Gods Words start to release a higher Spiritual meaning than what is being said outwardly.
Doing a word study can be most advantageous.
Ecc 1:1 The words of the Proclaimer, son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities! saith the Proclaimer, vanity of vanities! all, is vanity.
Ecc 1:3 What profit hath Man, in all his toil wherewith he toileth under the sun?
Ecc 1:4 Generation, goeth and, generation, cometh, but, the earth, unto times age-abiding, remaineth.
Ecc 1:5 And the sun, breaketh forth, and the sun, goeth in,—yea, unto his own place, he panteth, from whence he brake forth.
Ecc 1:6 Going unto the south, and circling unto the north,—circling, circling continually, is, the wind, and, over its own circuits, returneth the wind.
Ecc 1:7 All the streams, flow into the sea, yet, the sea, is not full,—unto the place whither the streams flow, thither, do they again flow.
Ecc 1:8 All words, are weak, unable is any man to tell,—not satisfied is the eye by seeing, nor filled is the ear with hearing.
Ecc 1:9 That which hath been, is the same that shall be, and, that which hath been done, is the same that shall be done,—and there is, nothing new, under the sun.
I do not want to come across as being condescending in any manner because that is not my intention,Lord forbid. But I would like my brothers and sisters to come to an understanding that when we are steeped in the physical/literal side of what The Word of God has given us we then miss the whole point of what Christ is trying to convey to us, t-h-r-o-u-g-h His words, which are...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Our life in the flesh will amount to no more then a hill of beans when His Spiritual Words bring forth His Glory within.The Spirit is Life.The flesh and all that it represents is for naught....
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Amen.
Hope this helps some friends. Thanks for allowing me to throw a few penny's into the mix.
Peace...Mark
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Folks,
In re: the sun our source of matter and physical energy.
Who knows whether God told Adam that the earth orbits around the sun and that the earth rotates upon it's axis, thereby illustrating the regulating of the seasons and the sequence of days and nights.
Further that Adam knew that the Moon orbits the earth in a particular fashion different from the sun's planets of which the earth is the preeminent one.
I don't believe that we should assume that Adam and Eve were ignorant Neanderthals.
The apparent fact that this information didn't "trickle down" to Adam's progeny does not prove that Adam was unaware of this and many other facts of astrophysics and geophysics.
Pro 25:2 It is the gloryH3519 of GodH430 to concealH5641 a thing:H1697 but the honourH3519 of kingsH4428 is to search outH2713 a matter.H1697
Pro 25:3 The heavenH8064 for height,H7312 and the earthH776 for depth,H6011 and the heartH3820 of kingsH4428 is unsearchable.H369 H2714
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Drew, no apologies necessary. If this thing has been on your mind for years, it is only because the Lord has caused it to be there. Just be aware that He causes things for reasons we do not always understand until after the fact--if even then. He sets us up, and knocks us down. Blessed be the name of the Lord. :D
Thanks for your understanding.
Do good.
Post initial post I have had time to read responses and to cogitate on them. I seem to be getting at least some partial understanding of why this question has been rolling around my brain for all these years. In the fullness of time the question was put to the perfect audience; the only one that could possibly have helped me to see, and probably others, that it is the spiritual significance that matters not the physical. I went from packing up and leaving town to gaining spiritual understanding that I wouldn't have if I had packed up. Sincerely, this day has been uplifting, to say the least. Thanks to Him and all who have been a part and the day's no over yet. "Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God..."
Drew
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Concerning the sun and the Son, here is an email from Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3838.0.html ------
Is this a typo in Malachi 4:1-2 (KJV- The Thompson Chain-Reference Bible, 1964), or is it in relationship to the “SUN” gods, and not the true “SON” of God (Jesus Christ)?
“For behold, the day is cometh that shall, burn as an oven; and all he proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the SUN of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.”
1. Is this designed to deceive and confuse, leading the minds of people away from the True God of Righteousness?
2. Why calves?
3. What of the stall?
4. Some translations have “its wings”, not his wings, since when is Jesus referred to as the ‘SUN’, or by ‘IT’?
5. Are the Scriptures that corrupt from the syncretism of…World Religions?
Thank you for your time and Scriptural insight, even if you’re not able to respond at present.
Sincerely,
Jerry
Dear Jerry:
I am not an authority, but I believe that capitalizing the word "sun" in this verse is a mistake.
Jesus is likened to "The Morning Star" rather than the sun and the moon which symbolize other things. Whether it read "his" or "it," matters not, but the "sun" I believe should be a small "s."
Rotherham will give you a better understanding of the "Calves"--"So shall the sun of righteousness arise to you who revere my Name, with healing in his wings, And you shall come forth and leap for joy LIKE CALVES LET LOOSE FROM THE STALL." Did you ever see "calves let loose from the stall?" Or "cats let out to play for a few hours?" Well, trust me, thats real joy.
God be with you,
Ray
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And here is another email from Ray concerning the sun and moon as symbol.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4974.0.html ------
Because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and the moon is the sign of the Son of Man, and the Sabbath is a sign (Exo 31:13, Eze 20:12), we should keep the Sabbath according to the phases of the moon! (Gen 1:14, Jer 31:35, Jer 31:36, Eze 22:26, Rev 2:17, Isa 66:23)
COMMENT: Nonsense, Johan! Jesus Christ is NOT "the sign of the Son of Man," and "the moon is a symbol of Jesus" is unscriptural nonsense. Neither is "the sun a symbol of God." Johan! Most of the PAGANS AND HEATHENS used the sun as a symbol of God, but you won't find that in the Scriptures. The moon is reflected light. Jesus is not the "reflected" light of Jesus The light of the moon represents the truth given to the CHURCH. And that is why "the moon shall be turned to BLOOD." The love of God given to the Church will be turned into hatred and evil and bloodshed by the Church. it is sacrilege to associate Jesus with the moon. The light of Jesus comes from WITHIN, it is not reflected by the moon:
"And the city had NO NEED of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of GOD did lighten it, and THE LAMB IS THE LIGHT THEREOF" (Rev. 21:23)! Yes, we need to "look up," but looking up in Scripture does not mean to look UP IN THE SKY AT THE SUN AND THE MOON, but to look up on HIGH, to SPIRITUAL things.
During the crucifixion there was an eclipse of the Moon.
COMMENT: Nonsense, Johan. An eclipse of the moon does not cause it to darken during the day. And an eclipse of the sun which does cause it to darken during the day, last for only a few minuts, NOT FOR THREE WHOLE HOURS
(Matt. 27:45)!
(Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.)
The Moon has cast its shadow over the Earth. This also implies New Moon (Dark Moon) and high Sabbath!
(Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.)
COMMENT: I'm afraid that statement is too convoluted to even comment on. For a million dollars I could not tell you what the point of that statement is supposed to be. Sorry. Your email is too long, Johan, I just don't have the time. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
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I once heard a message where scientist tried to disprove the Bible re; God haltingthe rotation of the earth at different times in the scripture
and it got down to a 15 or so sec.gap in time. Then came a scriptural reference for it so that ALL the stoppages of the sun equalled
EXACTLY 24 hours and tht is why we have a "leap year" every 4 years to make up the time God stopped the movement of the sun.
So EVERYTHING is literal and God is laughing at our ignorance of His power and greatness, again!
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Drew,
How does your theory of the Sun revolving around the Earth prove that the Sun literally "rises" and "sets"? Have you forgotten the the Earth is a sphere? Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake? How can the Sun literally "rise" and literally "set" if it is continually revolving around the circular Earth?
Daywalker 8)
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Pearl Jams song " Black " has a line " All five horizons revolve around the sun " so, that's what I'm going with and don't try to change my mind.
Longhorn
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Drew,
How does your theory of the Sun revolving around the Earth prove that the Sun literally "rises" and "sets"? Have you forgotten the the Earth is a sphere? Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake? How can the Sun literally "rise" and literally "set" if it is continually revolving around the circular Earth?
Daywalker 8)
You've got me there, Daywalker, then it definitely comes back to ones perspective. I have to say, though, the theory does't belong to me. I read this in a Reconstructionist mag., which I can not remember the name of, whose founder was RJ Rushdoony. The article didn't have so much to do with rising and setting as with the earth being the center of our universe. I really never expected my post to garner this much discussion. Now I will have to go back and see if I can locate that article. Thinkers abound in this forum and this is a good exercise for me that I'm not being let off the hook. I'll get back with you after I do my research.
Drew
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Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake?
I'm sorry guys but, I'm going to take a break from the forums for awhile. Thanks for all the ones who took the time to help me in here. I can't handle this type of stuff.
Grace
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Hello again Daywalker,
Cursory research complete. Chalcedon was the mag. and Geocentrism is the theory but at this point I'm not out to prove a point. I think I remember a comment by Mr Smith to the effect that in his opinion science and scripture compliment; not detract. Wikipedia gives a pretty taut definition of the theory. Once again, my intent for my initial post was to lend credibility to scripture and whether or not the sun is the center or the earth is the center it doesn't change what seems to have been established in this discussion; that the physical profits nothing but the spiritual does. I do hope all of this verbiage is not violating forum rules.
Drew
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I can't handle this type of stuff
Grace what is there to handle?
These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station. It is all vanity and flapping in the wind. What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese? What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still? What if there was men before Adam? What if...What if??? What does it matter? Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike? Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful? No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up. We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything. We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble.
Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad.
Craig
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Great analogy Craig. I mean what does me burning my toast ( twice ) this morning, or the fact my cat Smokey decided the best place to throw-up was in my shoe really have to do with anything other than to tick me off and make me realize how much room I have for spiritual growth.
Longhorn
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I can't handle this type of stuff
Grace what is there to handle?
These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station. It is all vanity and flapping in the wind. What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese? What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still? What if there was men before Adam? What if...What if??? What does it matter? Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike? Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful? No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up. We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything. We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble.
Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad.
Craig
Great analogy, Craig, and words of wisdom for those who have "ears to hear." :)
René
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Hello
Just to throw a small observation into the mix. We know the axial rotation of the earth creates our periods of light and darkness, which we call days. We all know know there is 365 1/4 (averaging leap years and normal years) days in a year. SO how many times does the earth rotate on its axis, in a year? 365 1/4? Nope... 366 1/4!!!
Because the earth also rotates around the sun, even if it did NOT rotate on its axis at all, we would still have one apparent day, one sunrise, and one sunset, by virtue of the earth making this orbit around the sun. Yet because the earth actually does spin on its axis, and this rotation is in the opposite direction to its orbit around the sun, this first axial spin, does, in effect, cancel out this first "orbital day", the first apparent day! SO if the earth only rotated once in a year, the sun would stay in the same place in the sky the entire year, seem FIXED in position, rather than having one sunrise and one sunset, due to the fact the earth rotates in opposition to its orbit.
We know the earth rotates one more time each year than its apparent days. It rotates 366 times in normal years, and 367 times in leap years. This can only be true if the earth both orbits the sun and its spins on its axis. So yes, the earth does orbit the sun, and it does spin on its axis!
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Drew,
How does your theory of the Sun revolving around the Earth prove that the Sun literally "rises" and "sets"? Have you forgotten the the Earth is a sphere? Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake? How can the Sun literally "rise" and literally "set" if it is continually revolving around the circular Earth?
Daywalker 8)
You've got me there, Daywalker, then it definitely comes back to ones perspective. I have to say, though, the theory does't belong to me. I read this in a Reconstructionist mag., which I can not remember the name of, whose founder was RJ Rushdoony. The article didn't have so much to do with rising and setting as with the earth being the center of our universe. I really never expected my post to garner this much discussion. Now I will have to go back and see if I can locate that article. Thinkers abound in this forum and this is a good exercise for me that I'm not being let off the hook. I'll get back with you after I do my research.
Drew
I think Ray's conference on Creation and Noah's Flood has a lot to do with this, at least for me. I used to be one of those 'anti-scientist' type, who thought science was just out to destroy religion...I blame part of that on what I was told to believe all my days in Babylon. Thanks to Ray, and to God, I realize that most scientists are just trying to understand how things work--that they aren't all evil demons controlled by Satan. LOL
Daywalker 8)
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Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake?
I'm sorry guys but, I'm going to take a break from the forums for awhile. Thanks for all the ones who took the time to help me in here. I can't handle this type of stuff.
Grace
What exactly is wrong with that statement? I'd really like to know. thanks
Daywalker
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I can't handle this type of stuff
Grace what is there to handle?
These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station. It is all vanity and flapping in the wind. What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese? What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still? What if there was men before Adam? What if...What if??? What does it matter? Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike? Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful? No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up. We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything. We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble.
Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad.
Craig
Finally. Someone makes sense without the cloaking-up with a bunch of scriptural derivatives, numbers, and essays of diminished understanding.
We read Ray's hard work and.....all of the sudden.......we're hand-picked geniuses chosen for the quest of understanding all things God.
All these mental breakdowns over the most trivial unnecessaries.
The earth is flat?, the earth is round?, four corners or not?, does the sun sink or set?, did a snake really talk?.....who cares?
It is..... what it is.
We are who we are.
We stand where we stand.
We do what we do.
We've done what we've done.
We change when he changes us.
We see when he allows the sight.
We understand when he gives the understanding.
Grace and purpose. God's grace and purpose in all things seen and unseen, from then to now and beyond. That's the simplest and most candid form of 'truth'.
gk
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So to refine my question further, how dumb or ignorant does a statement have to be by a Forum member before someone disagrees with them? Does disagreeing with someone show lack of Godly love?
John,
I wasn't talking about the truth that was given in the post at all. All you can do is give someone the truth of a matter and that's it. It's up to God to open that truth up to them so they can see it. My comment was made because of asking if Drew still believed the earth was flat as a pancake. Now, anyone on this earth who has gotten access to the internet can find with overwhelming evidence that it is not flat. Even if they are in the middle of the desert with no other life around them, if they have internet access they will find that out sooner or later. So what was the point of throwing it in with the question, "Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake?"
That is why I posted my comments. It seemed to be a question with attitude and I really don't think I'm the only one here who has seen this happen before this particular post. If I am wrong about that, I am sorry. Forgive me for being too sensitive. Only the one who posted it knows that for sure. I personally could care less if it's flat, round, orange, purple, whatever. In the scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Science is not the truth. God's word is truth. What I was trying to convey is that once you provide truth don't kill them while you're giving them truth. If I ask a question in here, give me the answer if you have it but leave personal opinions out of it if you think my question was stupid, that's all I'm saying.
Grace
Grace,
It's called sarcasm. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked that you were offended considering it was quite light in comparison with some of Ray's infamous lines from either his articles or his emails. Need I provide examples? I wasn't "jabbing" Drew, and based on his own response, he didn't appear to be offended by it. I wasn't LITERALLY asking Drew if he still thought the earth was "flat like a pancake"; I'm pretty confident he doesn't. It was just a lil humor to help make the point, it wasn't intended as a punch to the mouth.
Indeed, sometimes it's hard to judge one's motive when reading what they type as opposed to hearing them speak. Hope this helps clear the air.
Daywalker 8)
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A good read (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm):
SARCASM—OLD AND NEW
I have two favorite Scriptural sarcasms which I find to be sheer genius. One in the Old Testament, and one in the New. The first is from I Kings 18:21-39. Elijah told the people that they should choose two bullocks and place them on two altars of wood. He then said:
"And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answers by fire, let him be God"
They all agreed, and so the priests of Baal went first:
"And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O BAAL, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they LEAPED upon the altar which was made.
And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is on a journey, or peradventure he sleeps, and must be wakened.
I think we should read this verse from The Living Bible:
"About noontime, Elijah began mocking them. ‘You’ll have to shout louder than that,’ he scoffed, ‘to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened.’"
And the priests of Baal, being as stupid as stupid can be, obeyed Elijah’s mocking sarcasm:
"And they CRIED ALOUD… there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded."
Remember that God Himself inspired Elijah to mock the priests of Baal with these jeering and demeaning epithets. He went so far as to suggest that maybe their god was "sitting on the toilet" or so exhausted he "fell asleep." And they were too stupid to even know that Elijah was making public spectacles and fools out of them. But Christians assure me that God doesn’t mock. Excuse me, but I did find this scenario IN THE BIBLE! And let’s not forget this:
"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration OF GOD [as in: ‘Elijah began mocking them… perhaps he {the god of Baal}… is out SITTING ON THE TOILET], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Tim. 3:16).
This is not just Elijah taunting the priests of Baal; this is GOD HIMSELF telling Elijah under inspiration: Tell the priests of Ball that "…perhaps your god is out SITTING ON THE TOILET." God in heaven Himself inspired Elijah to speak that delightful phrase to these pagan priests. What a remarkable insight into the personality of God Almighty.
And ALL these events were preserved for us:
"Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (I Cor. 10:11).
One can be compassionate while having thick skin...when dealing with carnality, it's actually essential. But God's Elect are not thin-skinned, pushovers. It's not the end of the world if one feels that way now, because it's literally not the end of the world. If Christ has begun a work in you, He will finish it. Just keep the faith.
Marques
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Hey, you geniuses, what about my post about every minute being accounted for in the Bible for the missing day of leap year?
I think that is quite amazing. If my father were still alive I would ask him to recall each verse that made up the missing 24 hours. Does God do things like that, and the "Big Dipper" that every nationality ever so primitive would recognize, just as a visual awareness that rational thought was/is behind creation?
I just watched the Discovery Channel re: earths creation and it's relationshio to the sun and how Jupiter
is the planet with the gravitational pull to keep foreign bodies from slamming into the earth, and how everything in the universe was so PERFECTLY arranged so that the earth could sustain life--and NOT ONE MENTION OF AN INTELLIGENT CREATOR! "eyes are blinded to the truth".!!
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Hey, you geniuses, what about my post about every minute being accounted for in the Bible for the missing day of leap year?
I think that is quite amazing. If my father were still alive I would ask him to recall each verse that made up the missing 24 hours. Does God do things like that, and the "Big Dipper" that every nationality ever so primitive would recognize, just as a visual awareness that rational thought was/is behind creation?
I just watched the Discovery Channel re: earths creation and it's relationshio to the sun and how Jupiter
is the planet with the gravitational pull to keep foreign bodies from slamming into the earth, and how everything in the universe was so PERFECTLY arranged so that the earth could sustain life--and NOT ONE MENTION OF AN INTELLIGENT CREATOR! "eyes are blinded to the truth".!!
That's where we come in. :D ;) :) ;D
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I can't handle this type of stuff
Grace what is there to handle?
These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station. It is all vanity and flapping in the wind. What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese? What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still? What if there was men before Adam? What if...What if??? What does it matter? Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike? Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful? No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up. We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything. We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble.
Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad.
Craig
Hi Craig,
I feel as if I owe an explanation for that comment. It was not just this one particular comment that I'm referring to. I realize I have a long way to go. That realization comes every single day I wake up. What I don't understand is that, after a person realizes this and humbles him/herself to errors they have in what they believe or have believed in the past and acknowledges this fact in front of God only knows how many reading this forum, why do some feel it is necessary to stick that final jab in? They have already acknowledged their error, as Drew did in the previous post. At least, it seemed to me he was responding well to correction and not arguing the point. This has not just happened in this one post. It has happened several times that I have seen. It almost seems as if previous postings are not read before making a comment at times. Even when the Samaritan took the guy who had been beaten and robbed to an inn to be taken care of, the priest who came by just went around him. He didn't kick him as he was walking by, he simply ignored his condition.
As I stated before, this is not just this one particular post and I'm not singling out only one comment in here. I hesitated to even post this reply. I may should have just left it as is and moved on but, I feel that I needed to give an explanation for my comment. Others are not as far along as some in here spiritually and I don't think people are naive either. Once a person acknowledges they understand a truth that is given to correct the errors in their belief, leave it alone. Quit typing, unless it's to encourage them. People are getting enough insults in the world without getting them in a place they come for answers. We also don't have to justify ourselves all the time either. NO ONE has arrived yet. We are all in this together and it is God who justifies the righteous. I'm not the forum police but I do know that when God has corrected me in the past, usually the person he uses to correct and make me feel ashamed doesn't even know they have been used for that purpose.
I apologize if I have hurt anyone and I won't say anymore. I have expressed a personal opinion here and if it's wrong, I'm quite sure I will be corrected for that also.
Peace and Mercy,
Grace
Hi Grace,
I'm particularly tired, so maybe I shouldn't respond, but I'll venture in that direction anyway. The Sensitivity personality trait is one I certainly share with you, so I know where your coming from. The CAUSES both Genetically & Environmentally(Our experiences) are certainly contributing factors. Also, I've noticed that if I'm particular tired or having an especially bad day, it makes sense for me to type with caution or abstain, because under these circumstances(tired, irritable, low blood sugar or bad Day), I'm likely to snap. Also, if I'm in an emotionally high state, this can occur too. It's rare, but on occasion I've snapped at what I perceive as digs or jabs or wise crack remarks.
We have to ask God to help us discover the balance in all of this. My Dad was arrogant & sarcastic in an irritating way & sometimes at Age 88, He still is, maybe it's good for me that He lives in Naples, Florida. What I'm getting at, there must be a balance between the person that selfishly makes a snide remark deciding: " Well, it's my right to do so," in comparison with someone being overly sensitive & easily offended. It's My hope that God continues to help us attain the balance. I have reason to believe that the Apostle Paul wasn't an easy Chap to get along with, at times, remember, He was a Pharisee, from the Tribe of Benjamin and displayed a sharp burst of anger towards Barnabas regarding John Mark. Anyway, that's My 2 Cents or less, for what it's worth or not worth. And of course there is a big difference between being Ignorant and Stupid. Ignorance means you don't know the answer. Stupid means you know the right answer, but you still believe & follow the wrong answer, ;).
Kind Regards, Samson.
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I've noticed that if I'm particular tired or having an especially bad day, it makes sense for me to type with caution or abstain, because under these circumstances(tired, irritable, low blood sugar or bad Day), I'm likely to snap. Also, if I'm in an emotionally high state, this can occur too. It's rare, but on occasion I've snapped at what I perceive as digs or jabs or wise crack remarks.
well put Samson I try and do the same as I have been guilty of remarks I wish that later I had not written down. I am sarcastic by nature so that doesn't help. I think I have been learning patience,among other things, and that has helped some.
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I'm just going to respond in general. This has been a serious issue with me as well, Grace. In fact, I've had to take James 1:19-20 to heart here lately. It's the verse that says, "be swift to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger for the anger of men worketh not the righteousness of God." I take very seriously the warnings Christ gave about "offending one of His little ones." I also take very seriously when someone attempts to become a "smarter than thou/holier than thou" Pharisee in attitude. Maybe it's my life experiences that have made me that way because I'm used to being put down, condemned, called names, etc. It makes me all the more protective of others.
Sometimes I get the impression that there are those who have become so fixated on driving off the "wolves" that they appear to have lost the ability to discern a wolf from a babe. That is just my opinion, but that's how it appears to me.
As I said in a previous thread: LOVING correction is one thing. Brutal sarcasm and cold apathy are something entirely different. There's enough of those attitudes and cold-heartedness over in Babylon. Leave them over there.
I realize that everyone here is a work in progress, and I try to keep that in mind. I try to not get angry when I see someone kicking a person while he's/she's down. It's not easy because every fiber of my being ignites in righteous indignation and wants to fly to that person's defense. However, I also keep in mind that "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." I don't think anyone would disagree with the statement that WE ALL need God's mercy.
Maybe tempering judgment with a little more mercy would help overall.
Just my $0.02 though.
Grace, please don't let the rough experiences prevent you from partaking of the spiritual nourishment. :)
John
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If I ask a question in here, give me the answer if you have it but leave personal opinions out of it if you think my question was stupid, that's all I'm saying.
Grace, you may be sensitive but, your funny too! I couldn't resist, sorry, after all, what you said above was after you quoted John from Kentucky. We all know John comes off as being a little rough around the edges at times. I don't think he could keep personal opinion out of a response if he tried! That's just my opinion of course. ;)
It takes all kinds to make the world go round right? Grace, hope you don't leave the forum. Stick it out a little longer and it could get worse, er, I mean better. ;D
After all,
ISV, Eph. 6:12
For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.
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Post from Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13093.0.html
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Craig, thanks for posting that. I have one question, hope it isn't a dumb one but I am not all with it today. Ray mentioned giving us a great scripture in the end of the email. Did I miss it? (which is clearly possible!)
Glad to see you Grace! I am like you, not ultra sensitive by any means and use sarcasm in my humor often (especially with hubby for really good zingers!) but not appreciative of its use to make anyone feel below anyone else. I also try to remember that when someone doesn't know me personally and I WRITE sarcasm, it is easily misinterpreted so I try to watch it carefully and use it sparingly if at all.
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I'm going to be brief. Here's a great big hug for ALL you forum members (especially John from Kentucky and Daywalker,for being so brutal; I hope this warms your heads,hehe). One, among many, of my failures is that I comment before I get all the facts. I'm a slow learner. Hopefully being associated with y'all will accelerate the process. God be praised that He has gifted Mr Smith in the way that He has! His teaching is the reason we are congregating. Blessings to all.
Drew
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A new post in this topic has been moved for moderator review.
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After reviewing the post, it will stay removed. Using this medium to post a rebuttal to what Ray has written is not the purpose of the forum. The thread was over a year old, a rebuttal could have gone directly to Ray a year ago. I find is strange that it is posted after Ray is gone. Normally we would tell a member to write Ray with any concerns or rebuttals; since that is not longer possible we can only remove these posts. None of the moderators have the mind of Ray and we will not get dragged into a debate. We have Ray's opinion on things with his writings. You are not forced to believe anything he has written to be a member here.
I personally have no interest on this whole topic, and if any readers wish to refute anything Ray has written then I would recommend getting a domain name and refute away. If your views are of God then you will be successful, if not well....
Craig