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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: sarahfromcolorado on March 26, 2012, 08:46:45 AM
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Matthew 21:31 Which of the two does the will of the father?" They are saying, "The first." Jesus is saying to them, "Verily, I am saying to you that the tribute collectors and the prostitutes are PRECEDING you into the kingdom of God.
Preceding Definition:
1. Come before (something) in time
2. Come before in order or position
In other words the sinners who believe go into the kingdom of God BEFORE certain others. Doesn’t the fact that he used the word “preceding” show that the Pharisees will eventually go in…just not before those who receive Christ in this age? Like “they’re getting in BEFORE you do.”
This is just another verse that confirms to me that even if aionios could sometimes mean “everlasting” when it comes to judgment it cannot. Otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said that the sinners who believe go into the kingdom of God BEFORE the Pharisees who did not believe.
Does this make sense to anyone else or am I way off in “Sarah land” again? :o Doesn’t the word “precede” indicate that they must go in after?
Preceding “proago”
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
“bring forth, go before”
From pro and ago; to lead forward (magisterially); intransitively, to precede (in place or time (participle, previous) – bring (forth, out, go before.
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Doesn’t the fact that he used the word “preceding” show that the Pharisees will eventually go in…
Excellent example of paying attention to the words!
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Does this make sense to anyone else or am I way off in “Sarah land” again? :o Doesn’t the word “precede” indicate that they must go in after?
Hi Sarah,
Yes, this makes perfect sense. Some translations, such as Young's Literal and Rotherham's Emphasized bibles, use the word "before" in this verse, which further supports what you are saying. :)
René
Matt. 21:31 - "Which of the two did the will of the father?' They say to him, `The first.' Jesus saith to them, `Verily I say to you, that the tax-gatherers and the harlots do go before you into the reign of God. - YLT
Matt. 21:31 - "Which of the two did the Will of the father? They say, the latter. Jesus saith unto them - Verily I say unto you, The tax-collectors and the harlots are going before you, into the kingdom of God; - REB
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Awesome.
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sweeet! ;D
Thanks for showing me those other translations Rene!
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So, the reasons the sinners precede the pharisees when entering the Kingdom of God, is this because they lack the self-righteousness that pharisees has? Or is there more to it?
let me know-
Thanks
Denise
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Hi Denise,
So, the reasons the sinners precede the pharisees when entering the Kingdom of God, is this because they lack the self-righteousness that pharisees has? Or is there more to it?
In Matt. 21 Jesus was speaking to the chief priests and the elders of the people that had come to Him. Sarah brought up the point that In verse 31 Jesus had stated that some would enter the kingdom before them, so the they were not excluded, but since others would come in before them that they would come later.
Mat 21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father? They said to Him, The first. Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that the tax-collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Now in the next verse we see why those would come into the Kingdom before the others.
Mat 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax-collectors and the harlots believed him. And when you had seen it, you did not repent afterwards so that you might believe him.
So it is because those tax-collectors and the harlots that Jesus was talking about "believed" and therefore repented and the chief priests and the elders of the people "did not repent... and believe."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Sarah, yes, that's exactly what it shows. Tax collectors and prostitutes enter into the Kingdom ahead of, not instead of, the pharisees.
Thanks for pulling that out, Kat. Brings to mind this verse: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe" - I Tim. 4:10. (The prostitutes and tax collectors would fall into that "believers" category.)
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What does that mean, What did they exactly believe in that caused them to repent? What is the belief they believed in that caused them to enter the kingdom of God first before the pharisees.
The pharisees believed in their faith- strongly and believed in God and a messiah and all of that. did they just lack of the belief that Jesus is the son or lack the Christ mind or what exactly? What is the belief that caused the sinners, the prosquittes and tax collectors, that are most hated by common religious Jewish people because of their sin, to go into the kingdom of God first? It looks like the sinners lack the belief system and it was easy for them to look into their hearts and repent of their sins than those with a belief system? I don't quite understand? Is Jesus referring to those who have less walls in their hearts that will enter the kingdom of God than those with more walls?
Bear with me. I am trying to understand.
Denise
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What does that mean, What did they exactly believe in that caused them to repent? What is the belief they believed in that caused them to enter the kingdom of God first before the pharisees.
The pharisees believed in their faith- strongly and believed in God and a messiah and all of that. did they just lack of the belief that Jesus is the son or lack the Christ mind or what exactly? What is the belief that caused the sinners, the prosquittes and tax collectors, that are most hated by common religious Jewish people because of their sin, to go into the kingdom of God first? It looks like the sinners lack the belief system and it was easy for them to look into their hearts and repent of their sins than those with a belief system? I don't quite understand? Is Jesus referring to those who have less walls in their hearts that will enter the kingdom of God than those with more walls?
Bear with me. I am trying to understand.
Denise
That's a fair question, Denise. This should help a little.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
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It is the religious people that Jesus used to fight against the most. ...Be careful of the leaven (teachings) of the religious people... Be careful of those ''teachers'' that supposedly bring the word of Almighty God to the masses while they are more carnal that the people they are trying to teach...
Many of the common sins from the average sinners that society tend to look down fast doesn't compare with the consequences of a fake, corrupt, misinformed spiritual teacher. It is like getting into surgery with a fake and corrupted and ignorant doctor. There is always mistakes and consequences on many levels and degrees.
Many Christian Pastors look clean and nice and respectable on the outside, but...
oh well
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Hi Denise,
The pharisees believed in their faith- strongly and believed in God and a messiah and all of that. did they just lack of the belief that Jesus is the son or lack the Christ mind or what exactly?
The Pharisees tried to be righteous by keeping the letter of the law. Like Moises' comment said, "Many Christian Pastors look clean and nice and respectable on the outside, but..." yes, they want to 'appear' righteous. They were leaders and teachers of the law and the way they taught it was to require great restrictions on the people in order for them to obey. Here is what Jesus says about them and their form of righteousness.
Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowd and to His disciples,
v. 2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
v. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do. But do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
v. 4 For they bind heavy and hard-to-carry burdens and lay them on men's shoulders. But they will not move them with one of their fingers.
v. 5 But they do all their works in order to be seen of men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
Mat 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of extortion and excess.
v. 26 Blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of them may be clean also.
v. 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
v. 28 Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
The Pharisees were so blind and carnal minded, but as the leaders and teachers of this law, were held to a much higher standard. But we all are deceived at first, in this age it is only a few that God opens the blind eyes and gives His Holy Spirit of Truth to.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
v. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
v. 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
v. 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
v. 7 that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Regardless of what our background it will take God's indwelling Spirit to turn us from our carnal ways.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
v. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.
v. 28 And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey Denise, I think the answer to your question can also be found when you read what John the babtist was preaching. He said to repent because the kingdom of God is at hand and to bare fruit worthy of repentance. That tells me that repentance isn't just saying a prayer but that it involves turning from your sins. So the sinners that go into the kingdom before other who have been blinded (Pharisees) go in because they believe that the kingdom of God is near and so not only acknowledge their sins but turn from them. It seems to me that the Pharisees weren't willing to acknowledge that they were sinners. I think maybe being baptised by a man like John and openly acknowledging their sins would have humiliated them because they felt they were already righteous and because they loved the praise of men more than God.
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I still am trying to understand what Jesus saw in the sinners and his perspective on the Pharisees. I know Jesus' home was from Galilee providence. that is about almost 70 miles from Jerusalem. It's days maybe a week Journey to Jerusalem. Its a providence that was of mixed people. I think Greeks lived there as well. There's mixed languages. various beliefs, etc. I am sure people are a bit friendlier there.
Now, to Jerusalem and around close to Jerusalem, Judaism is the primary religion there. common people like prostitutes and tax collectors, they have to be extra careful around the Pharisses. They had to hide, they had to have protection while They try to make a living. Its just their job. The Pharissses make it hard for them. From a drug thug's perspective, from a prostitute perspective, from a tax collector's perspective. For many of them, they are just trying to make a living. One thing I know is that the sinners and pharisses, they don't have the same convictions.
I mean, for example, Let's change the story details a bit. The story is still the same. I can see why the pharisees were offended.
Instead of words like tax collectors and prostitutes. these words seem not to hit anything close to home....because we don't know anyone- for some people, they can relate, Think of the IRS person that audits someone very often and you end up owing alot of money to the government. There's bound to be some hard feelings toward that auditor right? Now, about the drug thug, that sells drugs to people. It's similar to selling sex like the prosutitutes did, they do it becuse it helps them make a living. But you have a hard time with that becuase the drugs affect people. It ist he same way as how Pharissees feel about women selling sex. It affects the men. it makes them addicted. You wouldn't want your child hooked up on drugs? It is the same way. same idea.
Now, lets get back to the Pharisees. Pharisees are the ones that make the effort to make things right. They make the effort to live right. They are like the Christians of today. They try to live right. They try to follow rules- they feel that by following these rules, they do it because they feel it would please God. They STRIVE to do right, They are very strict, very dedicated. I am sure they look down to the sinners- telling them they need to live the same way Pharisees do. It is the same mindset as christians of today.
Now.. the details of the story has changed but the main story remains... Jesus is telling the pharisees that the IRS auditor and the drug seller will PRECEDE the Pharisees.
Think of how that causes the Christians of today to feel? I am sure that p'd them off. It hurt their feelings. It was a SHOCK to them.
Okay Now- If you were a christian, The reason Jesus said these things that the IRS auditor who keep auditing you, and you end up owing alot of money to, and a drug seller that kept selling drug to your child will precede you to the kingdom of God. How would you react. Of course. I would understand the Pharisees' reaction. But I am tryng to understand the reasons why Jesus said these things.
Is it because the sinners had less standards of the heart than the Pharisees? They were light laden than the Pharisees? They were easy to love other people than the Pharisees did? even today, if you hung out with these kinds of people, you would see that they are very close knit, and help one another through hard times. they were like brothers/sisters. they were practically family. For some of them anyway. I Know Jesus didn't hang out with the pharisees, he hung out with common sinners. imagine him hanging out with ladies that use to sell sex, and an IRS auditor that audited you several times almost every year, and a drug seller that sold drugs to your children, and other sinners on that same level. I would understand Pharisees' perspective of Jesus at that time.
Even the Roman soldiers had a hard time telling him apart from the other disciples in the garden so they had Judas pick him out. He just looked the same as those sinners. He just didn't look any different. Of course it would be easy to see the difference if he dressed up highly and powerful like the Pharisees but he didn't. he wore regular clothes, probably had same hair- The thing is, He identified with the sinners more than the Pharisees or Christians of today.
I am sure Christians of today would not recognize Jesus if he was here today at all. Even if they did, they wouldn't follow him because he doesn't wear the same clothes, follow code of laws. think of Pentecostals, Catholics, etc. Jesus will never have identified with them.. He would rather hang out with drug dealers, prostitutes, tax collectors, the common people that was less judgmental toward others. They were his friends.
Maybe These sinners were able to repent before the pharisees because they saw How enlightened Jesus was and how free he was, and how much love he had to share, how humbled he was. it caused a ripple effect and they wanted the same thing Jesus had? By being around Jesus, their eyes were opened and wanted the same thing Jesus had? Is that how they were able to repent easier than the Pharisees?
I know John the baptist was a preacher, paving the way for the Messiah to arrive. Imagine a man who ate bugs and honey, probably not the best groomed man out there. I can see how the Pharisees were wary of listening to him. They prob thought he was crazy. I would understand. I mean He ate bugs and honey. :) Other people would be wary not to listen to anyone who weren't church leaders. chrsitians of today are the same way all because they feel the common people need to have the same standard like the Pharisees did? Pharissees seeing the sinners as heathen and becomes more judgmental toward them until they converted? is that what Jesus was trying to say all along? Less standards of the heart, means you are closer to the kingdom of God?
John kept preaching that the kingdom of God is at hand and we are to repent. How do we repent to what? to a higher Christ self in your mind? The NT says we are to renew our minds constantly. How do we understand what repentance mean. Of course it means change to something else because you see it that its the better way to do it? see it as freedom-I know it is harder to repent without the Spirit of God. Jesus had the spirit of God, mercy, love, kindness, gentleness, slow to anger, and so on, it opened the sinners' eyes and they were led and wanted the same thing Jesus had and was able to repent easier than the pharisees? What does John mean the Kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus has not died yet? Kingdom of God is a manifestation of everything perfect in the mind? I have seen throughout scripture that kingdom of God is near, and kingdom of God is at hand... what does these things mean? manifestion of what is perfect and Good?
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Hi Denise,
It's really pretty simple. The reason the prostitutes and tax collectors and anyone else ever repents is because God grants them repentance. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." Easy peasy. :)
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Hi Denise,
John kept preaching that the kingdom of God is at hand and we are to repent. How do we repent to what? to a higher Christ self in your mind? The NT says we are to renew our minds constantly. How do we understand what repentance mean. Of course it means change to something else because you see it that its the better way to do it? see it as freedom-I know it is harder to repent without the Spirit of God. Jesus had the spirit of God, mercy, love, kindness, gentleness, slow to anger, and so on, it opened the sinners' eyes and they were led and wanted the same thing Jesus had and was able to repent easier than the pharisees?
First off, it is impossible to repent without the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html ----------------
REPENTANCE
Repent means to turn around, to go the other way. Whatever you are doing that’s wrong and sinful and evil and carnal and worldly and everything else, you turn around, you 'repent' and you go the other direction. The scriptures mention a couple of words:
Matthew 18:3 talks about being converted
Matthew 19:28 talks about being regenerated
1Peter 1:3 talks about being born again
John 3:3 talks about being born again
What are all those things? They’re all one and the same, there’s no difference. Being begotten anew, being born again, being regenerated, being converted. They are all the same and this is what we all want to do so that we can take on more knowledge and live more Godly, and reach this goal.
We all sin. Sin has to go through three things: cleansing, repentance, forgiveness. Does anybody know the order of these things?
This is the order of what happens to sin:
1. Forgiveness
2. Repentance
3. Cleansing
God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven’t repented of.
v
Okay, let’s move on.
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
That’s the sequence. Repentance is where you accelerate this. All through your life you learn to mature... learn to operate in society... learn to obey the laws of the higher powers and so on... stopping at stop signs... staying under the speed limit etc... You do all these things, which are admirable, we should do them. But there comes a time when you have to just stop 'doing good things' and repent of who and what you are. Then you will start to make real progress.
v
God makes vessels of honor and dishonor. He makes vessels of dishonor and then has mercy on the other vessels. Some He hardens and some He has mercy on. He has had mercy on everybody in this room. If you have never killed anybody or molested children or done any of these horrendous things. He has great mercy on your life. Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we don’t have very much to repent of. We have to repent of what? "O man," that’s what we have to repent of.
Whatever "O man" is. That’s what we are, because "O man" is Adam. "O man" came out of Adam. Where did you come from, some place else? We’re all out of Adam. What does Adam do? "Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters" and on and on (Rom 1:29-31). Wow! This is "O man" out of Adam. This is what he does and only by the grace of God, some of us didn’t have to go that route.
v
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
v. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
v. 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
See? Peter understood these spiritual things. He said, God PURIFIED their hearts. That’s conversion! That’s being born-again... begotten anew... regenerated... whatever word you want to use, that’s what THAT is. It was happening to the Gentiles.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -----------------------------------
THE SCRIPTURAL PROCESS OF CONVERSION
The truth of conversion is a simple one, if we believe the Scriptures and don’t try to bring it about by some phantom free will. It is all of God.
How do the Scriptures say we become converted? Does an ounce of "free will" enter into the conversion process according to the Scriptures?
1. "Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness [‘His goodness;’ not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God’s ‘leading’ is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Rom. 2:4). Where is the ‘free will’ in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not free will.
2. "No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.
3. "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16). "I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.
4. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). It is not by the ‘free will’ of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.
5. "I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5). According to God’s Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.
6. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:11). Is this man’s part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12). Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus, Lord.
7. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).
Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God’s faith, God’s gift, God’s Workmanship, God’s creating, God’s ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.
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What does John mean the Kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus has not died yet? Kingdom of God is a manifestation of everything perfect in the mind? I have seen throughout scripture that kingdom of God is near, and kingdom of God is at hand... what does these things mean? manifestion of what is perfect and Good?
John and Christ continually said that the Kingdom of God is at hand, because Jesus Christ was there among them and He is the head of the kingdom. Christ had already started the work of bringing people into the kingdom with the disciples, even though He was not yet sacrificed, but it was already upon that generation. Christ preached of what He Himself was offering with His own sacrifice and yes indeed the kingdom was at hand with everybody that heard the gospel preached then and to all of us that read or hear it preached now, though only a very few are given eyes to see/comprehend it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yeah-
Then every effort that we do trying to strive is rigged then. I mean. it's already "fixed" God already decides who gets the "rewards" and who doesn't.
What is confusing is that The apostles, Jesus, John the baptist, Paul, etc, are always telling us to repent, renew our minds, etc.
but it's all rigged because God already decided who recieves the rewards and who doesn't. It doesn't seem like a fair reward system. The bible seems to teach that we are judged according to our deeds. It just doesn't make sense.
scriptures say God hardens some hearts, God softens some hearts, actions are influenced by God. but scriptures say God still judges according to their deeds? How is that allowable when It's all a rigged life. Some scriptures smells of free will, some scriptures says you do not have free will. honestly, It does send a mixed message. It tells us we need to repent- as if it's up to us to repent or experience the wrath of God but God says He only causes people to repent if it's his will for them to do so? Jesus ridiculed the pharisees, when he himself knew that Its not the pharisees' fault for being the way they are. God made them this way. All it took is an snap of fingers to change their hearts and help them see...
I just am trying to understand why did the prophets, why did the apostles, why did Paul, why did Jesus, etc, warn us we need to repent, and so on.. as if it was up to us to repent or not?
I would understand if everything is of God and it only takes God to change hearts in an instant to help everyone see but why the REWARDS system?
It seems so wrong.. its like rewarding those who God helped and punishing those who God hardened? I would understand if God created the vessels of honor and dishonor to help us understand and learn... but why the REWARDS SYSTEM? Why are we judged according to our works if our life is already Rigged by God?
I have read by some of you that the bible is really directed toward elect not the many called- but still. if I was God, i wouldn't confuse my children as much as this. LOL. I would just say, you are here to learn... overcome.. and I will reward you greatly... that makes sense.. but saying that your life is rigged by Me... and no matter how hard you try... you w ill not make it, or make it, and i will give rewards to those who I want to give it to...the story seems off.. The logic doesnt make sense.
I agree that life is full of mathematical equations- every action you make- creates paths. there's no way out of it. There's a will but no free will. I would understand.. There's no free will. but there's a will.. but still.. what The bible is saying- it seems like life is rigged whether you like it or not.. and you are rewarded if God wants to reward you.
It just bothers me.. It just doesn't make sense... I would understand that God put us all n earth to learn, to overcome our flesh, and reward according to it.. but the Rewards system when life is rigged already doesn't make sense either.
I guess it's a matter of understanding who God really is. Then it would probably make tons of sense..It's a matter of timing i guess. Scirptures say we are in God and God is inside of us. We just need to understand. I can imagine how every image we have in our heads can influence our actions.
I guess it's a matter of understanding how the universe, how life works.. How God works.. I am sure once we are connected to God, everything would make sense. :) All in due time. I just don't understand the Rewards system if we don't have free will That's all.
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Denise, I could continue to bring Ray's articles up here bit by bit to answer all of your questions... or you could go read through them yourself. I think you might be surprised at how much you could learn. All your confusion about what is in the Scriptures concerning free-will, well he explains the whole myth of free will in great detail, it covers all of the things you were questioning. I'll even give you the links.
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yeah-
Then every effort that we do trying to strive is rigged then. I mean. it's already "fixed" God already decides who gets the "rewards" and who doesn't.
What is confusing is that The apostles, Jesus, John the baptist, Paul, etc, are always telling us to repent, renew our minds, etc.
but it's all rigged because God already decided who recieves the rewards and who doesn't. It doesn't seem like a fair reward system. The bible seems to teach that we are judged according to our deeds. It just doesn't make sense.
scriptures say God hardens some hearts, God softens some hearts, actions are influenced by God. but scriptures say God still judges according to their deeds? How is that allowable when It's all a rigged life. Some scriptures smells of free will, some scriptures says you do not have free will. honestly, It does send a mixed message. It tells us we need to repent- as if it's up to us to repent or experience the wrath of God but God says He only causes people to repent if it's his will for them to do so? Jesus ridiculed the pharisees, when he himself knew that Its not the pharisees' fault for being the way they are. God made them this way. All it took is an snap of fingers to change their hearts and help them see...
I just am trying to understand why did the prophets, why did the apostles, why did Paul, why did Jesus, etc, warn us we need to repent, and so on.. as if it was up to us to repent or not?
I would understand if everything is of God and it only takes God to change hearts in an instant to help everyone see but why the REWARDS system?
It seems so wrong.. its like rewarding those who God helped and punishing those who God hardened? I would understand if God created the vessels of honor and dishonor to help us understand and learn... but why the REWARDS SYSTEM? Why are we judged according to our works if our life is already Rigged by God?
I have read by some of you that the bible is really directed toward elect not the many called- but still. if I was God, i wouldn't confuse my children as much as this. LOL. I would just say, you are here to learn... overcome.. and I will reward you greatly... that makes sense.. but saying that your life is rigged by Me... and no matter how hard you try... you w ill not make it, or make it, and i will give rewards to those who I want to give it to...the story seems off.. The logic doesnt make sense.
I agree that life is full of mathematical equations- every action you make- creates paths. there's no way out of it. There's a will but no free will. I would understand.. There's no free will. but there's a will.. but still.. what The bible is saying- it seems like life is rigged whether you like it or not.. and you are rewarded if God wants to reward you.
It just bothers me.. It just doesn't make sense... I would understand that God put us all n earth to learn, to overcome our flesh, and reward according to it.. but the Rewards system when life is rigged already doesn't make sense either.
I guess it's a matter of understanding who God really is. Then it would probably make tons of sense..It's a matter of timing i guess. Scirptures say we are in God and God is inside of us. We just need to understand. I can imagine how every image we have in our heads can influence our actions.
I guess it's a matter of understanding how the universe, how life works.. How God works.. I am sure once we are connected to God, everything would make sense. :) All in due time. I just don't understand the Rewards system if we don't have free will That's all.
It makes perfect sense, you just can't see it. ;-)
Just kidding, Denise. It's very hard to understand unless God gives you eyes to see and even then it's like looking thru a glass darkly.
1 Cor. 13:12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
I believe God is using this very puzzling "situation" / "predicament to get people like you to question because questioning leads to seeking and seeking leads to finding, receiving, having the door opened to you.
Luke 12:2 is one of my favorite verses. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
May God grant you and me the ability to see and believe His Word and DO it, because as Ray has said previously, it is by DOing what Christ commands that we are able to understand His word.
(The beginning of wisdom is... GET WISDOM!)
Love you, and glad you're here. You ask tough questions. :)
Gina
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. All in due time. I just don't understand the Rewards system if we don't have free will That's all.
There is no such thing as anyone not being saved. All will be saved! See the reward system, as a projection, simply of the limitations of the physical mind, trying to think its way into knowing God. God can not be reached by the cleverness of any human mind. God is Spirit. The carnal mind is deep seated enmity towards God with a great appetite for nonsense. lol
Turning away from leaning upon the understandings that are wrought by the limitations of the human mind, brings to the light of experience that You are a child of GOD, and an Heir of Christ. Leaving all the non-sense to HIM....is not easy...but it is possible...You have asked, and you shall not be denied.
Arc
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Hey Denise,
I think it's also important to understand that there was no difference between the Pharisees and the prostitutes and tax collectors in that they were ALL sinners. None of them were sinless, even those who strove to adhere to the written law. But there was a difference in that unlike the Pharisees the prostitutes and tax collectors knew and accepted that they were sinners. The Pharisees trusted in their own righteousness.
It is the same with many Christians today. They think that it is because of THEIR righteousness or THEIR "freewill" choice to believe that saves them. They think that it is THEIR works and THEIR faith that distinguishes them from all the rest when according to Scripture it is God who grants repentance and faith.
Is it "fair" that God blinds certain people to the truth for a season or that he holds them accountable for what they do? Romans 9 tells us that God has the right to do whatever he wants with the "pots" that he makes and Romans 11 tells us that even these Pharisees and anyone else whom he doesn't grant faith and repentance to in this age will eventually be shown mercy and "get in".
So we may not think it's fair that some get to "go in" before others but that's what Scripture teaches.
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Very good answer, Sarah.
Romans 11:32
For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience (unbelief), only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].
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Guys, we may be mere man... but What is God? Can you tell me? Is he a life force? Is he a manifestation? The bible says God is spirit. Bible also says satan is spirit? I don't understand the defintion of spirit? is it something people try to explain how the brain works. like we are influenced by ego and ID and super ego in the brain? Where our morals of good and evil comes from, What if God is in the brain somewhere? Just guessing.
we know that people back then did not understand how the mind works,or how science works, for example the anatomy and physciology of the mind. Whatever we think in our mind, we tend to do it also. That is will, not free will of course.. because we act according to what are in our thoughts. That is cause and effect laws. What doesnt make sense is that Bible says God has emotions? The limbic system in the man's brain produces hormones that produces emotions. That is why you see disorders in people who have bipoloar, manic, or someone who seems happy all the time, or others who seem angry or sad all the time... or when you recieve meds, and it has an effect on the limbic system, you end up having flat face, showing no emotions.
How can God have emotions if he is spirit and not flesh? How can he say he love the smell of burning animal flesh if he is spirit? Humans has nasal receptors that helps them enjoy the benefits of smelling something.without it, you cannot smell. smell helps reach the brain which communicates with memory receptors that helpy you remember w hen you taste or smell something.. How can God smell if he is not flesh but spirit? Maybe God is he is the life force that binds all things? It is just that.. FORCE? maybe?
What if God is the froce that is the causer/effector, the force that is causer and effector because everything is under mathematical laws. Cause and effect laws. Planets are under mathematical laws, they obey the law. they just do what they were made to do..
Another question is... is it possible God does not have free will but a will? like we do. we don't have free will but we do have a will? .he makes judgement according to what he sees.
That is still cause and effect? Like for example. he saw the world was a bad place, he made the choice based on that to destory the whole land except for Noah and his family. Or because he saw all the evils at Sodom and Gorromah, that he felt he needed to destory it except for Lot and his family. Another example is Adam and Eve. God made the decision to move them out of the garden because they sinned. That is still cause and effect. he seems to operate under cause and effect laws as well. Does it mean he has a will or is his will "free" as well?
I think Force is like a series of mathematical equations.. once you make that equation- the result has to come that way.. or if you change the equation, the result would be quite different.. but it is the same idea. What if God is just FORCE that binds all things? like Jesus said, whatever we think in our hearts, so are we. Is that why he asks us to repent- change our thinking- change our ways. etc?
Force is an expert at mathematical equations. to see that eventually people will realize the equations they have been making has always been up to no good, and they will finally realize which equations will lead to a better thinking, better life, better future, so they end up going to the new equations instead... Force knows the future. Its like someone who knows how to solve mathematical equations- after several tries, after several practices, you 'll know the answer to the equation question. That is my guess?
What is God exactly? I am trying to understand.
Denise
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Hi Denise,
Guys, we may be mere man... but What is God? Can you tell me? Is he a life force? Is he a manifestation? The bible says God is spirit. Bible also says satan is spirit? I don't understand the defintion of spirit? is it something people try to explain how the brain works. like we are influenced by ego and ID and super ego in the brain? Where our morals of good and evil comes from, What if God is in the brain somewhere? Just guessing.
we know that people back then did not understand how the mind works,or how science works, for example the anatomy and physciology of the mind. Whatever we think in our mind, we tend to do it also. That is will, not free will of course.. because we act according to what are in our thoughts. That is cause and effect laws. What doesnt make sense is that Bible says God has emotions? The limbic system in the man's brain produces hormones that produces emotions. That is why you see disorders in people who have bipoloar, manic, or someone who seems happy all the time, or others who seem angry or sad all the time... or when you recieve meds, and it has an effect on the limbic system, you end up having flat face, showing no emotions.
How can God have emotions if he is spirit and not flesh? How can he say he love the smell of burning animal flesh if he is spirit? Humans has nasal receptors that helps them enjoy the benefits of smelling something.without it, you cannot smell. smell helps reach the brain which communicates with memory receptors that helpy you remember w hen you taste or smell something.. How can God smell if he is not flesh but spirit? Maybe God is he is the life force that binds all things? It is just that.. FORCE? maybe?
You are trying to put the horse before the buggy here. God came first, this creation of the human body and all of the marvelous things it is capable of is pattern after Him. The physical senses are limited to what we have physically to experience them with. I wonder how much more God is able to experience without these limitations? Infinitesimally more I would think.
Jesus Christ became a man, do you think He had never experienced any emotions before? Of course He did as the God of the OT, the Scriptures speak many times of His emotions. The human mind in all it's incredible functioning power to reason, comtemplate, judge a situation, intelligence to make decisions and that's not even talking about the emotions, but it is a very very very simple mind compared to God's mind. Jesus Christ has existed at least as long as this universe (billions of yrs), maybe much longer than that, He has had all that time to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Father. No wonder the Scripture say.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
What if God is the froce that is the causer/effector, the force that is causer and effector because everything is under mathematical laws. Cause and effect laws. Planets are under mathematical laws, they obey the law. they just do what they were made to do..
Another question is... is it possible God does not have free will but a will? like we do. we don't have free will but we do have a will? .he makes judgement according to what he sees.
That is still cause and effect? Like for example. he saw the world was a bad place, he made the choice based on that to destory the whole land except for Noah and his family. Or because he saw all the evils at Sodom and Gorromah, that he felt he needed to destory it except for Lot and his family. Another example is Adam and Eve. God made the decision to move them out of the garden because they sinned. That is still cause and effect. he seems to operate under cause and effect laws as well. Does it mean he has a will or is his will "free" as well?
I think Force is like a series of mathematical equations.. once you make that equation- the result has to come that way.. or if you change the equation, the result would be quite different.. but it is the same idea. What if God is just FORCE that binds all things? like Jesus said, whatever we think in our hearts, so are we. Is that why he asks us to repent- change our thinking- change our ways. etc?
Force is an expert at mathematical equations. to see that eventually people will realize the equations they have been making has always been up to no good, and they will finally realize which equations will lead to a better thinking, better life, better future, so they end up going to the new equations instead... Force knows the future. Its like someone who knows how to solve mathematical equations- after several tries, after several practices, you 'll know the answer to the equation question. That is my guess?
What is God exactly? I am trying to understand.
This is directed toward the question in bold. So what is free will? From the American Heritage Dictionary; Free Will: 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Does God make "choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will"? Does God ever do anything against His Own Will? God is sovereign, He is total in all things and in every way. Why? Because "He is before all things" and determined how everything would be.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
so yes God does not have free will, it is a myth, it does not exist.
Ephesians 1:11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Wow, this tread seem to be moving in so many directions all around, so many good answers and honest questions.
Back to the question of why does Jesus put the average sinner before the Pharisees (religious people). I have read the answer when the situation was showed on a conventional way. With a fast look at it, it seems like the pastors and the people that teach religion on a wrong way have good intention, doesn't make much harm and it's not hard to look at them as okay people of society... But, if we would take a wider look at the situation, much of the evils of society have originated from Babylon. It would take a whole study to show how those small churches out there can do so many harm in a long term to peoples hearts. If we would have an small glimpse of how things really work in the world and how the christian religion as a whole influence so many aspects of society, we would not think at all that Jesus was exagerating when fighting the religious leaders of his time.
There is many different levels of sins/mistakes. Drugs harm the body very bad. Spiritual drugs harm the soul very bad.
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Wow, this tread seem to be moving in so many directions all around, so many good answers and honest questions.
Back to the question of why does Jesus put the average sinner before the Pharisees (religious people). I have read the answer when the situation was showed on a conventional way. With a fast look at it, it seems like the pastors and the people that teach religion on a wrong way have good intention, doesn't make much harm and it's hard to look at them as okay people of society... But, if we would take a wider look at the situation, much of the evils of society have originated from Babylon. It would take a whole study to show how those small churches out there can do so many harm in a long term to peoples hearts. If we would have an small glimpse of how things really work in the world and how the christian religion as a whole influence so many aspects of society, we would not think at all that Jesus was exagerating when fighting the religious leaders of his time.
There is many different levels of sins/mistakes. Drugs harm the body very bad. Spiritual drugs harm the soul very bad.
Wow, great point Moises. I have heard a few times from unbelievers and from those who once believed that it was those within Christianity that drove them away because of fakeness, hypocrisy or lack of love. I my self have felt more genuinly loved or accepted by people who didn't go to church or believe than those who did.
I am beginning to see more and more how many Christians who spend so much energy trying to get people to "join their club" are no less carnal then the people they try to reach...sometimes they seem even more hard/dark hearted. Though sometimes they may seem very nice and sweet on the outside once you start talking about how they could be wrong about anything, but especially the hell doctrine, they let what they're really like on the inside come out.
I think bringing up the hell and eternal torment teaching to a believer coul be one way to see where their heart is really at.
Some one who really has the love of God in their heart isn't going to get angry or offended when you present even just the posibility that God may not torment his creation. Instead of accusing you of being a heretic or condemning you to their hell they'll actually listen to WHY you believe what you do.
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Sarah, I am glad you saw something good in my post. I know what you mean regarding filigrees. But I was referring myself more to the church leaders, to the teachers that are not good t what they do. Because many times they know better regarding specific points and still don't do anything. They put heavy burden on people and don't do them themselves. The filigrees are mostly ignorant crowds that don't like to think for themselves very often.... But yeah, I know your point.
And I was a church goer filigree once -but never again!
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Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Are the ministers and preachers and priests of today's churches any different? I think not. You have a person/sheep who begins to think about living a more righteous life and wants to get closer to God they will look for a church/shepard. Now once they get under the sway of one of these 'Shepards,' do/can they get closer to God? We have come to see that when you get beyond the very most basic understanding, that Christ is the Son of God, that the church has no depth of understanding of truth, none. We have been there among them and can bare witness to this, I had my questions that I put to ministers and Matt. 23 holds true. If you go to a minister of one of the churches with a tiny bit of light that you may be seeing, they will try to snuff it out and keep to their manmade doctrines.
They (ministers, preachers, priests) put themselves in positions of authority/leaders and because they have memorized Bible verses and can quote them around their doctrines, the people flock to them. We realize that this is the way it is ordained to be, they are the blind leaders of the blind, in this church age.
Mat 15:10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand:
v. 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
v. 12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"
v. 13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
v. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
Those who think of themselves as having authority it teaching truth to those that come to them, yet pull them into the ditch along with themselves, will have much more to answer to in the judgment.
Mat 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Sarah
You are insightful and well written. Two other references to the jews being LAST. Rmans 11 describes the broken branch (jews) being grafted in after other believers; Hebrews 11:40 'they shall not be made perfect apart from us (belevers), 'us' obviously being before 'they'.
The first shall be last?
ASKSEEKNOCK
Charles O
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Thanks Charles. :)
The first being last totaly makes sense to me now. And Romans 11 is an amazing chapter. I could never understand it, along with other Scriptures, and they "bothered" me until Ray and people like him started showing all these truths about the nature and duration of judgment.
I think I heard him say once that just this one chapter in Romans disproves both freewill and everlasting judgment.