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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: legoman on October 31, 2008, 02:26:02 PM
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I am trying to understand the difference between 'spirit' and 'soul. In Genesis, God formed the man from the dust, breathed life into him, and the man became a living soul.
Basically: Body + Spirit (God's breath of life) = Soul
When a man dies, his body returns to dust, his spirit returns to God, and his Soul goes to Hades (state of the dead). Correct?
The confusing part is some verses seem to refer to 'spirit' and 'soul' as very similar things:
Job 7:11 "I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."
There are other passages as well which speak of the spirit having understanding (Job 20:3), spirit of jealosy (Numbers 5:14), etc.
Now my understanding was the 'spirit' is not us, it is not our personality. That is what the soul is. But how can a spirit have understanding?
Or am I confusing the term 'spirit'? What is 'spirit' or 'man's spirit' exactly?
This would be helpful to other people to explain what happens at death. When people see that their spirit returns to God at death, they assume that means they go to heaven immediately.
I know Ray has talked on this, but any helpful links or discussion would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Sorry I probably can't find the link, but Ray gave a good physical example of the Body being like the Television set, the Spirit being the electricity, and the Soul being the 'program'. Take away the spirit, and there is no 'soul', just a useless box. (pretty dang useless even WITH the electricity, most of the time ;D ) So when God breathed (spirited) man, he became a living soul.
This certainly works in explaining what makes us alive and what makes us dead. It doesn't explain as well the sense of man's spirit being a 'thing' that has its own conciousness. I think for that we'd really need to define 'spirit', something I'll have to leave to better minds.
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Hi Dave,
Sorry I probably can't find the link, but Ray gave a good physical example of the Body being like the Television set, the Spirit being the electricity, and the Soul being the 'program'. Take away the spirit, and there is no 'soul', just a useless box. (pretty dang useless even WITH the electricity, most of the time ;D ) So when God breathed (spirited) man, he became a living soul.
Yes I had read that email of Ray's, and that makes sense. I understand that without spirit, the light switch is off, we are not alive, etc.
This certainly works in explaining what makes us alive and what makes us dead. It doesn't explain as well the sense of man's spirit being a 'thing' that has its own conciousness. I think for that we'd really need to define 'spirit', something I'll have to leave to better minds.
This is more what I was wondering about. Does the 'spirit' that make us alive, also have some of our personality?
And is this the same spirit as when someone is talking about 'the holy spirit'?
I believe in Genesis it is 'man's spirit', not the 'holy spirit' that gave Adam life.
Likewise, when someone is spiritually dead, ie. completely carnal, they still have spirit right? (Just not the holy spirit I guess) - otherwise they would be dead physically.
So many different spirit's - I need a good definition of them all...
Kevin
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Hiya, I had copied the following study into my folder, i beleive it was from Ray's letter to Hagee. It is a bit long but well worth reading hopw this helps.
God Bless
Sandie
SPIRIT
When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.
SOUL
When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep, "The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16) This is substantiated by the fact that: "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6). Again: " ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).
Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
souls can hear (Acts 3:34)
souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
souls die (Rev. 16:3)
souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception). Your teaching is blatantly false and deceptive!
Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.
FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:
SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated LIFE in Rev. 13:15
SOUL [nephesh] is translated HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
HEART [leb] is translated MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
SOUL [nephesh] is translated GHOST in Job 11:2
SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated GHOST in Mark 1:8
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
BEAST [chay] is translated LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.
The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
I am amazed that people put up with such irresponsible teaching. You teach that man has immortality in his soul. The Scripture says man is "mortal," and "Our Lord, Jesus Christ ... Who ONLY has immortality." Which do you think is true - your teaching or the Scriptures? What part of the word "ONLY" don't you understand, Dr. Kennedy?
Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).
It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!
Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. This is most important to understand: "For, if the dead are not being roused [resurrected], neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith-you are STILL IN YOUR SINS." (Acts 15:16-18). That is just how important the resurrection is, and according to you and most Christian theologians, it isn't necessary at all, because you teach that man has an immortal soul that goes directly to Heaven or Hell without resurrection and thus make a mockery of the very Word of God.
And where, Dr. Kennedy, is all the "hell fire and brimstone" in all these verses on body, spirit, and soul? Where? If you don't understand the Scriptures concerning God's punishment and chastisement on mankind, fine, but don't force them into these versus regarding "the dead." And don't turn "ages" into "eternities" either. I'll comment on punishment, gehennah, the lake of fire, etc. later.
TV ANALOGY
Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.
Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.
Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.
Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.
Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.
Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).
At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.
But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.
And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.
Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.
If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Acts 2:27).
There is one more profound Scriptural truth that is also perfectly analogous to the operation of a TV, and that is this. Picture God's Throne as the Broadcast Headquarters. The TV picture Tube, by itself, is not the source or originator of the picture it portrays on the screen. It is a channel for the signal transmitted from the TV Station and Tower. It can only manifest and portray on its screen that which is sent from the source [God]. And often the source [God] uses intermediaries like satellites [Angels] to relay the signals.
In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.
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Thanks, sansmile. I didn't exactly have it right, did I? The program comes from God in His wonderful sovereignty.
Ray indicates two things (at least) in regard to the Legoman's main question. 1. Soul and Spirit are similar but not the same. 2. Spirit is life (as both man and beast have it).
I don't believe so much that man HAS a soul as that man IS a soul. We are not so much a body as we HAVE a body. Soul and body interface. Spirit (life) interfaces with both. So things are less mechanical and seperate, making us a package. What good--to run with Ray's analogy--is the TV set, the picture tube, and the power to run them without the programming--something happening? Is it thinkable that the Spirit of God gives us worthwhile 'programs'/spiritual life while the carnal mind of man gives us harmful 'programs'/spiritual death?
Like any physical example, to run this down a long time will reveal it's failure. So I think we need to do as Ray suggested and 'run down' these definitions from usage in Scripture.
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sansmile as I was reading you post my keen eyes caught something you said. A dead person can not experience anything. Not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fable hell. is not (IN HEAVEN) a fable also? Is there such a place where a soul would go after death? No. No big deal maby I just misunderstood. It wouldn't be the first time or the last.
Darren
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I have always took it as the spirit is what gives life to us and soul is what we are. Did not God say that man was formed out of the dust and He (God) breath breath into the mold and it became a living soul? When we die our spirit goes back to God. WOW does this mean that anything alive has a spirit?
Trees
grass
flowers
birds and animals all have a spirit in them?
rocks, dirt, mountains, and such do not?
do bugs and insects have a spirit. or just man?
If spirit is the breath of God that allowed us to become living creatures then would not everything living have the breath of God in them?
Just a thought, probable wrong. it would not be the first. or the last.
Darren
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Hi Kevin,
I am trying to understand the difference between 'spirit' and 'soul.
Now my understanding was the 'spirit' is not us, it is not our personality. That is what the soul is. But how can a spirit have understanding?
Or am I confusing the term 'spirit'? What is 'spirit' or 'man's spirit' exactly?
I have found a number of emails that should help with your questions.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html ---
It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL. Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood? Good.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html ---
until recent years, referred to man as having three "components"--body, soul, and spirit. NOT TRUE. Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL." The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man. Understood? God is not a trinity and neither is man a trinity.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html ---
The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3617.0.html ---
Man is "made up" as you put it of body and spirit. Soul is not an ingredient. Soul is the RESULT of uniting the spirit with the body. God made man of the dust of the ground and breathed His spirit into Adam, and then Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God did not put "a soul" inside of Adam. When men die, the spirit returns to God, for spirit does not die. The body returns to the dust of the ground. The soul goes (that is ceases) to exist and is said to be in "sheol" or "hades" which is the realm of death, it is not a geographical location. Man has no memory or thoughts in death (Ecc. 9:5, etc., etc.).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html ---
Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46; I Cor. 2:11; etc.). There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,644.0.html ---
Don't make up phrases such as you have: "In spirit will I know myself?" There is no such thing as "being in your spirit." As a "being" you need a body. When your body dies, your "being" dies, your soul is gone (to the unseen, imperceptible--there is NO perception in death: not in your body, not in your soul, and not in your spirit). No one can live without a body. When our spirit is combined with a body, then and ONLY THEN do we have "soul" which is consciousness. At death no one has consciousness, or it wouldn't be death.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html ---
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ---
No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ---
Every person (and animal) has a "spirit." There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL. God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html ---
ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.
God be with you,
Ray
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Kat,
Thank you for those excerpts, all together they make it quite clear that: body + Spirit (breath of life) = living soul.
The sum of the parts is two, the result of mixing the two is (one living soul). Separate the two and there is then
no (living soul), in laymans terms flour and water make (dough) when mixed together, flour without water is flour
and water without flour is water (no dough). That is my simplistic explanation for a very complex Scientific
Accomplishment, of course take it far enough and the analogy will break down.
george. ???
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I still have some questions and need some help here.
I believe the best way to understand us is to look at Jesus.
Right now He is Spirit, right, Living (life-giving) Spirit. Is there any soul about him now? as the first Man was a living soul? Of course He, the Living Spirit, was conscious (soul) of himself after the ressurrection.
We came through the first Man and are living souls but there is a development taking place, the salvation that is to make us like Him.The bible says we shall be like Him and one in/with Him. The Second Man is Spirit, as God is Spirit and definitely is conscious. So can we really say spirit is not conscious or should we say Spirit is/will be God, very part of God who we are returning to and we will be conscious (soul) of ourselves yet of God and in God and one with God and as God??? Also check where God mentions His soul in eg. "My soul shall have no pleasure in him....'
Help me somebody, if you can, with these thoughts.
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Hey High Pulpit,
I think you should reread sansmile post.
was a very good post!
body + spirit = living soul (the result of the two)
"spiritual" body + spirit = living soul (the result of the two)
Whats different? immortality
Scriptures do say God has a soul.
Check out 1 Corinthians 15 the whole chapter!
Hope this helps your understanding.
Antaiwan
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Hi, everybody!
Being that this is a subject of great importance for me, I still have some questions.
1. The explanations that you gave above make sense to a degree, and are scriptural,
however, to me they seem general for the entire humanity. Now if we are separated and
be a "peculiar people", where all these leave the "elect ones"??In which way are we different from
a person without Christ??
2. If we are the same, can someone explain to me the "inner man of the heart"?
" For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet
the inward man is renewed day by day." 2Cor.4:16
which is a spiritual match with: (I believe)
"But let it be the hidden man of the heart in that which
is not corruptible even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit ,
which is in the sight of God of great price." 1Pet.3:4
Who is this "inner man" and why is of great price in the sight of God?
3. As I studied the Tabernacle of Moses (not extensively), and if the Tabernacle be Christ,
why the Tabernacle has 3 parts? Outher court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies?
Why God instructed Moses to start with the Ark of the Covenant first, then
the rest.
4. What is "Christ in you the hope of glory" Col.1:27?
Or maybe should I ask where?
I am sorry, I am new at this forum and to the Truth, as now I am trying to unlearn
the things that I learned in the "church".
Sorry if I have so many questions. I just want to understand. ???
It was simple to me before where I understood that man has three parts, body
soul and spirit, as matched by the tabernacle which has 3 parts, the outher court,
Holy Place and Holy of Holies, the antichrist (which I know now is me) his number was
666, which is the number of man, which matches humanity, namely man body, man soul,
man spirit, that only when you ad The One, Christ we can become 777, which is the
number of completion, without Him we are just 666, etc.
Thank you and I am grateful for shedding some light in my darkness! :-[
Love in Christ
Ariel
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Hi hammerandnails,
I think the answer to your questions is the God has begotten the Elect with the Holy Spirit of Christ, which makes them a "peculiar people."
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Col 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
A few He chooses out of the called to receive the Holy Spirit, that's what makes them different. Only those that He chooses have their eyes opened to these truths, which are "the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles." With Christ in you, then you begin understanding God's plan and purpose - hope. We are begotten now, but have hope, if we are faithful to the end, of becoming full fledged sons at the resurrection.
Here is an email about sonship.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4452.msg34236.html#msg34236 ----
Webster's New Twenteth Century Dictionary Unabridged:"sonship"--"the STATE OF BEING A SON"
Romans 8:15....
"But you have received a spirit of SONSHIP" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
"...but a Spirit which makes us SONS" (The New English Bible)
"...you have received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (Moffatt Translation)
"...you received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (New International Version)
"...but you received a Spirit of SONSHIP" (Emphatic Diaglott).
"...but you got the spirit of SONSHIP" (Concordant Literal New Testament) Etc.
We are not merely adopted into the Family of God, but rather God has "BEGOTTEN us" [Gk: 'beget, be born--regenerate']" (I Pet. 1:3). And: "Being BORN AGAIN [same Greek word], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God..." (Verse 23).
No, our final destination is to be BORN into the Kingdom of God, not just an "adoption." Some bibles do not ever use the word "adoption." Even if we were to accept these Scriptures as "adoption," we still have the added knowledge that we are to be BORN into the Kingdom of God.
We are all "called," but is that our final destiny? No, there is also (in addition to the called) those called ones who are CHOSEN, and even among the chosen, there must be the FAITHFUL (Rev.17:14). Judas was called and chosen, but he was NOT FAITHFUL UNTIL THE END!!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
If I can just clarify (and ask for clarification), there are 2 different spirits we are talking about here.
ALL men who are living have spirit (God's breath of life), otherwise they would not be alive.
However a small subset have the Holy Spirit, which gives them understanding and a knowledge of the truth. Am I correct on this?
Just clarifiying, because when discussing this with mainstream Christians, it seems like they lump the two together. As in, when someone dies, if they have the holy spirit they go to heaven (because the spirit returns to God), but if they don't have the holy spirit they go to hades (hell) because they don't have a spirit or are spiritually dead (ie. no holy spirit).
It all becomes a big jumbled kerfuffle if you think of it as all one spirit, but I think thats what the majority of people believe.
Just trying to sort it out for myself. The breath of life is not the holy spirit.
Kevin
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Just clarifiying, because when discussing this with mainstream Christians, it seems like they lump the two together.
It all becomes a big jumbled kerfuffle if you think of it as all one spirit, but I think thats what the majority of people believe.
They do not have a knowledge of the truth nor do they want to hear it. They lump all kinds of beliefs together and always come out sounding confusing. You could be the most eloquent man on earth and it wouldn't make a difference. A blind person cannot see...
Just trying to sort it out for myself. The breath of life is not the holy spirit.
Exactly
Marques
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But who is the "inner man"? ???
I'm sory, but right now my mind does not help me much, and I tend to think
in black and white.
Where exactly is the "inner man" and where does he reside?
If he is in the soul, why is he hidden?
Is he "Christ in me"?
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Hi Legoman,
If I can just clarify (and ask for clarification), there are 2 different spirits we are talking about here.
ALL men who are living have spirit (God's breath of life), otherwise they would not be alive.
However a small subset have the Holy Spirit, which gives them understanding and a knowledge of the truth. Am I correct on this?
Yes, that is what I believe. As all receive the spirit of life at physical birth, so every person alive has this spirit. But we then also need the spirit of Christ/Counselor/Comforter/Spirit of truth, to be given to us.
John 15:26 But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he (it) will bear witness to me;
But who is the "inner man"?
I believe that this "inner man" is the mind or our conscience or soul. This is who we are, what character we have, our morals. The body is the outward or visible man; the soul, the inward, hidden, or invisible man.
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
It is the Spirit of Christ that comes and He begins to strengthen us and teaches us how to live rightous.
Isa 2:3 ...He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I started on a quest to find out exactly the difference between the spirit and soul.
Here it is, but I cannot list the scripture just yet because I got to start dinner.
I will give the scripture latter this evening.
When man became a living soul, it became so by the aid of the spirit.
You cannot have soul (living) without the spirit and spirit without soul.
To the conscious mind there are one and the same.
Now in order to "walk in the spirit" (Gal.), you must know the difference, you must discern which one
is which. For that reason we must be "sifted as wheat" in order to be converted.
In addition to that, the word must cut "assunder " bet. the soul and spirit.
Then and only then, we will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh,
when we are sifted or separated completely.
Did it ever happened to you to have the most glorious revelation or pious thoughts, and the
very second after that the most evil thought that you wonder where that came from? ???
We are not separated yet, not completely!!
Until then we are a mixture. (Job)
Mixed waters!!! (James) We must be purified, and that is accomplished
by separating, sifting, cutting.
Love you all,
Ariel
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One more thing.
I believe the "inner man" is Christ forming in you. ..."until Christ is formed in you."
And is growing as to the degree of separation.
More separation, more growing.
It may take a life time!!
Now I'm going to make dinner.
Talk to you later!
Ariel
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Yes Ariel
Just like being created when spirit is added to physical flesh
Being reborn seems to entail two parts:
separation (dieing to carnal self ) and
quickening (Christ spirit replacing our plain spirit)
then at Resurrection
those dead will be quickended and given a spiritual body
those alive will be quickened and receive a spiritual body
here are some scriptures on quickening to ponder
Psa 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.
Psa 119:25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
:
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)
beloved
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Beloved, you are right, I forgot about the quickening!!! :-[
So, to tie it all together, at birth, we are made of two parts: body and soul,
but the soul also contains the spirit that gives life, bisides the individual character traits
that God had given to each of us.
But, the spirit is still mixed with the soul. Only by the Spirit of Christ in our spirit (spirit to spirit) that separation can take place.
We had received the Spirit of God that quiken our spirit and transforms us in a new creature
from glory to glory. But this activity must take place in the spirit, (spirit to spirit) because the flesh profited nothing.
We are not aware of it, it is hidden. Hence the hidden man of the heart.
By the Word (besides washing), we are separated, namely, the soul from the spirit, in order to discern
between good and bad, spirit and flesh.
This activity takes place in the spirit.
Therefore, (I think) we are becoming three part being, body, soul and spirit, with the spirit becoming
the "chief, the one in charge", and the soul following allong with his senses trained and exercised.
"But strong meet belong to them that are full age,
even those who by reason of use have their senses
exercised (trained) th discern good and evil." Heb.5:14
Other scipture to support what I am saying:
"Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to
understand doctrine? theam that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts." Isa. 28:9
Drawing from the breasts is a painful thing.
Furthermore, the mixture that I was talking about:
" Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing.
My brethren, these things ought not to be." James3:10
And in the very next verse he says:
"Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water
and bitter? (v.11)
Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine
figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." (v. 12)
So, he say that we bless and curse, and it should not be so, and then he say that
it not possible.
It is not possible if we are clean. We must get clean.
Also James says in v.8 of the same chapter, that we are double minded!
Again mixture, in need of purification.
Another scripture:
"For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than
any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder
of soul and spirit...."
So, if he says soul and spirit then they cannot be one and the same.
It must be cut, divided, separated.
Clearly, they are not one and the same because the bible used two separate words for this
Scripture.
soul: Psuche #5590
spirit: Pneuma #4151
In Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my
spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."
In this verse, the soul and the spirit is clearly not one and the same:
spirit # 07307 ruwach: wind, breath, mind, spirit, wind of heaven, breath of airspirit as a gift, preserved by God's Spirit
departing at death, rarely of the will.
soul # 05315 nephesh: soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, desire, emotion, passion
And then we have this word bitterness. Bitter. Where did we see this word before?
Yes in James.
But wait, I found the same word in Exodus:
Exodus15:22,23:
" So Moses bruought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur;
and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
And they came to Ma'rah, they could not drink of the waters of Ma'rah,
for they were bitter:therefore the name of it was called Ma'rah.
The word soul ( #5590) in HEB. 4:12, is found 6 times in 1st Peter. One of this verses being this:
"Seeing you have purified your soulsin obeying the truth
trough the Spirit...."1Pet. 1:22.
In conclusion, we are clearly three parts: body, soul and spirit.
The Lord works in our spirit, through the Holy Spirit to purify our soul, and save it. There are separated
which is a process, by sifting (Luke22:31), cutting (Heb.4:12),and exercising (Heb.5:14)and separating.
I apologize if is not very clear as the way I listed the scriptures.
I am so tired, just about to pass out.
Please, if I made a mistake, I welcome your correction.
Love you all
Ariel
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Beloved, you are right, I forgot about the quickening!!! :-[
So, to tie it all together, at birth, we are made of two parts: body and soul,
but the soul also contains the spirit that gives life, bisides the individual character traits
that God had given to each of us.
But, the spirit is still mixed with the soul. Only by the Spirit of Christ in our spirit (spirit to spirit) that separation can take place.
Our body is given spirit which makes us a living soul. We, humanity, are living souls. The spirit only gives life. The Holy Spirit is given to the called and chosen to guide them into all truth. Without spirit or a body, the soul does not exist. Spirit is eternal and is not dependent on any other element.
You've pretty much got it though... ;)
Marques
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Thank you all for extending your patience towards me.
That's priceless!!! ;D ;D
You might as well know this: I don't stop until I get to the bottom of it, whatever it is!!!!
But most of all, I don't stop until I know the truth!!!!
To my new family, my true family
Love you all
Ariel
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Hi Ariel,
I have some excerpts from the article 'The origin of endless punishment' (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html) that I think will help your understanding.
So, to tie it all together, at birth, we are made of two parts: body and soul,
but the soul also contains the spirit that gives life, bisides the individual character traits
that God had given to each of us.
God didn’t need to do anything after He breathed into him the breathe of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn’t put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it ‘on’ and the light glows: Switch it ‘off’ and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul.
In conclusion, we are clearly three parts: body, soul and spirit.
SATAN’S TRINITY OF MAN
Did you ever wonder why it is that so many Christians are almost violently opposed to our teaching that exposes the trinity theory? Just why is the trinity the bedrock of all Christian doctrines along with the immortal soul and judgment upon death theory? Because man desperately wants to believe that he too is a "trinity" composed of three separate entities of body, soul, and spirit in one being, and that he is really immortal even though his physical body will die. Virtually every pagan religion in the world believes man is immortal as the gods. It is too frightening for them to believe that when they die, they are really dead, and that they will remain dead until or unless God resurrects them back to life.
Did the ancient Egyptians believe in the trinity of man: body, soul, and spirit? Yes, of course they did. The soul of man, called Ba, was the consciousness of the man and dwelled inside the body. The spirit-like aspect of man was called Ka. The Ka was like an invisible spirit double of the man. Both the Ka and the Ba where present in every human at birth. The Ba (soul) was pictured as a bird with the head of a man. Every evening the Ba could leave the mummy body and return back to earth among the living and check on friends and relatives. This is how the dead could keep in contact with the living. This is in fact the same hocus-pocus that medians deceitfully use to deceive people into believing that one can communicate with their dead loved-ones.
There is more superstition and witchcraft in some Christian doctrines than any theologian would ever admit to. The souls of people do not go to a heaven or hell upon death. Such doctrines are straight out of the tombs of the Pagan Egyptians.
This trinity of man and immortality of the soul nonsense is Egyptian (SIN), not Scriptural (RIGHTEOUSNESS).
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I hope that will be helpful in your studies.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, I guess that perhaps I am trying to hold on to some old stuff.
And what you are telling me I know is the truth, but I cannot reconcile in my mind
yet why the bible uses different words for spirit and soul.
That is true throughout the Old and New Testament.
If they are one and the same, why not use one word only, why separate words.
Please forgive me, I am going through the trial of my life, and some days I don't know
my name if you ask me. I am desperately right now trying to grab on to something because I am
in utter darkness. Job gives me comfort. Isn't that crazy???
Blessings,
Ariel
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Hi Ariel,
If they are one and the same, why not use one word only, why separate words.
The spirit and soul are not the same. The way I see it the spirit is what gives us life/being/self, even animals have this. Where as the soul is the body/brain combined with the spirit/life. Human have a unique brain and with a mind which gives us intellect and the ability to reason and heart which is the seat of affection and emotions, such as love, joy, grief, enmity, courage, pleasure, etc. Where as animals do have a soul (spirit + body), but they have a simple brain geared with instincts.
Here are a couple of emails that explains this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html -----
Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL." The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ----
the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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I hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Some more interesting thoughts (questions):
1. God said to Jeremiah:"Before I formed you (body and soul, depending on when consciousness is attained) in your mother's womb, I knew you (is that not spirit, coming from God, a part of God Himself) and I ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations..." (is this spirit not a definite program, thought(s), a plan, a predestined destiny which many times is not achieved (as God said to Jeremiah:"Say not you are a child....") due to this incorruptible body and the fallen world's influence and factors which we will eventually be saved from so that we can fully be this pan and attain to this fullness which is a true part of God, one with him ???????). Is God not building a family of Himself in which He will be ALL in ALL???
2. What does it mean when the bible says John the Baptist came "in the spirit (which spirit?) and power of Elijah". And what does Jesus really mean when He says that John the Baptist was Elijah which was to come?
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Some more interesting thoughts (questions):
1. God said to Jeremiah:"Before I formed you (body and soul, depending on when consciousness is attained) in your mother's womb, I knew you (is that not spirit, coming from God, a part of God Himself) and I ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations..." (is this spirit not a definite program, thought(s), a plan, a predestined destiny which many times is not achieved (as God said to Jeremiah:"Say not you are a child....") due to this incorruptible body and the fallen world's influence and factors which we will eventually be saved from so that we can fully be this pan and attain to this fullness which is a true part of God, one with him ???????). Is God not building a family of Himself in which He will be ALL in ALL???
2. What does it mean when the bible says John the Baptist came "in the spirit (which spirit?) and power of Elijah". And what does Jesus really mean when He says that John the Baptist was Elijah which was to come?
1. Here's a previous discussion regarding this passage: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,857.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,857.0.html)
2. Copy of email reply from Ray:
Dear Addison:
How long have you be reading my material now? You are doing what tens of thousands of detractors have done when they question my teaching--they MISS-QUOTE me virtually always. It is hard enough to be perfectly flawless in every word, phrase and statement of thousands of pages when I am quoted correctly. But people generally don't catch my real mistakes. So let's be accurate about what I said with regards to THE JEWS:
[1] "Jesus was speaking to THE JEWS in Matt. 7:21; and Jesus was speaking to THE JEWS in Luke 13:24."
Next with regards to THE CHURCH:
[2] "Not only does it apply to the church today, it applies almost EXCLUSIVELY to the church of Christian believers from the time of the Apostles until this very day."
Now then, did I REALLY say what you said that I said? DID I say: "...He was
T-A-L-K-I-N-G 'exclusively' to the church of Christian believers"? NO, no I didn't.
Here is what I said: "...it A-P-P-L-I-E-S almost EXCLUSIVELY to the church of Christian believers." I never said that that He was "TALKING" exclusively to the Jews. There are dozens and dozens of Scriptures that are speaking to or about ONE person or persons, but that are APPLIED to someone else altogether. Example, the prophesies concerning Joseph and Mary and the birth of Jesus.
Notice another example: "But I [Jesus] say unto you, that ELIJAH is come already...Then the disciples understood that He SPOKE unto them OF JOHN the baptist" (Matt. 17:12--13). Jesus "SAID Elijah," but He MEANT "John," because the SPIRIT of Elijah really did represent the spirit of John and his ministry.
So where I actually used the word "APPLIES," you said I used the word "talking," and where I did actually use the word "TALKING," you say I used the word "refers." And so you stated my position wrongly in both cases.
Paul speaks of carnal racial Jews, and spiritual GENTILE JEWS. In my Towers paper at the very top of our home page I have a heading: 'WHEN ARE JEW NOT JEWS AND GENTILES ARE JEWS?' You need to read ALL the material on our site and most of your questions will be answered for you.
God be with you,
Ray
Represent...like a shadow or type...something that points the way to something else.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Hi High Pulpit,
God said to Jeremiah:"Before I formed you (body and soul, depending on when consciousness is attained) in your mother's womb,
First of all we do not pre-exist. I really don't think that is what you are saying, but just wanted to make sure. And here is an email that shows what Ray thinks on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5611.0.html ----
Is it possible that we chose to be here in human form to experience what it is to sin because we are from perfect form and don’t know imperfection?
COMMENT: That's just a bunch of double-talk. Before we existed we didn't "choose" to be anything. Humans did not exist before they were physically born into this world. Only God is perfect and God does have a knowledge of evil. Being in the Image of God involves knowing good and evil.
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I knew you (is that not spirit, coming from God, a part of God Himself)
All things are of God, so yes the spirit that gives us life is from God.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
and I ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations..." (is this spirit not a definite program, thought(s), a plan, a predestined destiny which many times is not achieved (as God said to Jeremiah:"Say not you are a child....") due to this incorruptible body and the fallen world's influence and factors
You have to understand that God is sovereign. God has a predetermined plan worked out (nothing happens by chance) to the most minute detail, that is why He "knew" Jeremiah, He knows the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10).
His being sovereign means He can not fall or not achieve to any degree His plan, it will be carried out to the utmost detail. Sometimes what God would say to people in the OT was for 'their' benefit to bring about that part of His plan and God intended for it to go that way. This world is going exactly the way God planned it to, He has not change a single thing because of this world's influences and factors.
A good Bible study you might want to read is 'Can a Sovereign God Change?'
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html
Audio
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 3.mp3
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dear Kat, I get it now!!!
Thanks again ;D
Blessings,
Ariel
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For those interested here's another post that went into some good detail and varying views and understandings.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,769.0.html
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Dear KAT, here I am again!
Happy to hear from me??
As I revisited this issue, and though I understand what you and Ray are saying about man being
2 part, namely body and spirit, and the soul being the product of the 2, I am with you this far.
Again, how you can explain 1Tes.5:23???
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole
SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
I am NOT contradicting what you are saying, I am only in need of your explanation of WHY
Paul wrote it like that?????
Somewhere in Ray's writings, he stated that everything in the scripture is of significance!!!!
I am simply asking what is the explanation behind Paul inspired by the HS listed these three components? ???
Please help me understand.
If this is a big issue, as I notice that it was in the link that Amrhrsach had posted, I am willing
to drop it.
Thank you again for your patience, kindness and wisdom.
Ariel
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Dear KAT, here I am again!
Happy to hear from me??
As I revisited this issue, and though I understand what you and Ray are saying about man being
2 part, namely body and spirit, and the soul being the product of the 2, I am with you this far.
Again, how you can explain 1Tes.5:23???
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole
SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
I am NOT contradicting what you are saying, I am only in need of your explanation of WHY
Paul wrote it like that?????
Somewhere in Ray's writings, he stated that everything in the scripture is of significance!!!!
I am simply asking what is the explanation behind Paul inspired by the HS listed these three components? ???
Please help me understand.
If this is a big issue, as I notice that it was in the link that Amrhrsach had posted, I am willing
to drop it.
Thank you again for your patience, kindness and wisdom.
Ariel
Spirit
Gk. pneuma
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
Soul
Gk. psychē (does this word look familiar?)
the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions
Body
Gk. sōma
the body both of men or animals
Paul states he prays that we, our whole self, be preserved blameless. Paul stated these three because 1. God created OUR body from the dust 2. God gave US the breath of life (spirit) and 3. WE are living souls. Man is not a 3 part being...Paul no where says man is a 3 part being...he only lists what he prays to be preserved blameless:
Spirit: The breath of life...the life we live to be preserved blameless
Body: Our body, the dust of the earth...to be preserved blameless
Soul: Us, living souls...to be preserved blameless.
Try not to look for more than what's there because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculative issues which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the least. All of us have done this in times past and even some on occasion fall back into it. It's a road that leads to a dead end...you may not completely understand yet but many members here can and will testify to falling into this carnal activity.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Hi Ariel,
I don't think Paul was saying these as separate components, he is talking to believers here and he is just covering all the bases with that statement.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He says "your whole spirit" pneuma; implying breath, the spirit of life. "Soul" psuchē; which also imply the life, but that would also include the mind and heart. "Body," I believe Paul was indicating your physical being or hoping they would substain from sinning with their body. Because he goes on to say to "be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I believe they had hope that Christ would return in their lifetime. Anyway that just my take on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This all can be confusing. I also believe that we become a living creature, or soul with the combination of the body and spirit. But why indeed would Paul seem to separate these components and want our "breath?" to be blameless?
One thought I have, probably not very valid, is that when the Holy Spirit awakens us to our need of a savior and the filth that our life has been no matter how many 'good' works we may have produced in our own perceived 'righteousness', then a war begins. That one that Paul refers to when he says he wants to do what is right but ends up doing what he knows isn't right. So perhaps that is what he refers to, that at some point both "wills" within us will come into union and we will stop fighting to get the carnal desires. If we are functioning properly, most humans develop a conscience of sorts and try to live up to that, but then the Holy Spirit steps in and the real battle begins. There does seem to be more than one person inside at times. But there is only one "me" inside there, and God will work it out to His satisfaction, for I am His workmanship and He has a vested interest in me. I don't fully understand the relationship between God and His son or why sometimes the scripture writers referred to our soul and spirit the way they do, but I know that if and when the Father wills for me to know, it will be so clear. But there's no harm in asking questions, you never know when something someone might say might cause the lightbulb to glow in the dark.
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It is indeed amazing that the very essence of what we are and consist of is one of the most difficult things to grasp just like the difficulty in grasping and understanding the substance of God.
Thanks Kat and all of you for all the help as we grow in knowledge and understanding.
Other thoughts (questions):
When we die the spirit goes back to God who gave it (that's scripture) and when it's time for the next body (spiritual), God recombines them (new spiritual body and spirit, and that SAME person (soul) comes back alive. Right?
Does it mean that each spirit (that goes back to God, upon death, and that was given by God at birth) is unique to each person (in which case spirit cannot just be breath, but a definite personal program-like the electronic information on a DVD), since I don't think it is the new spiritual body that determines a person's unique personality. Or does God now invoke the personality of each unique person (which I don't think) as the soul is coming into being at the second joining between the spirit (with no personality code) and the new spiritual body?
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Excerpt from Ray's paper to Dr. Kennedy (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm)):
BODY
When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."
SPIRIT
When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.
SOUL
When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,
"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)
This is substantiated by the fact that:
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).
Again:
" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).
Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
� souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
� souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
� souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
� souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
� souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
� souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
� life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
� souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
� souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
� none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
� honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
� even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
� souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)
� souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
� souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
� and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).
Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.
FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:
SPIRIT
[pneuma]
is translated
LIFE in Rev. 13:5
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
HEART
[leb]
is translated
MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
GHOST in Job 11:2
SPIRIT
[pneuma]
is translated
GHOST in Mark 1:8
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
BEAST
[chay]
is translated
LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.
The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).
It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!
Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection.
Please continue to read Ray's papers as well as search through Ray's emails. While there is definitely nothing wrong with asking questions, 'the honour of kings is to search out a matter' [Ps. 25:2]. Ray has covered this topic extensively as there is no need for rampant speculation.
Out of the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses is every word established as well as no scripture interprets itself. In other words, 1 scripture does not define itself and when we try to do that, it will turn into carnal speculation 100% of the time. Personally, I would think it would be better to continue to seek understanding than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
ok Marquez,
Well how do you find understanding without at least trying to formulate some of your own thoughts? You can parrot back someone else's thoughts and definitions all you want but until you start to put it into your own words you really don't understand. Please don't take my tone as being accusitive or negative.
I like a lot of what you say Marquez on certain subjects, but I see no harm in trying to get to the bottom of something you struggle with and hearing the thoughts of someone else can sometimes help even if you disagree.
I still haven't heard anything concrete on what exactly one's spirit is. I read too many verses that tend to point that it is more than just the breath or something not intimately connected with 'us'. But that we have some form of life after we die until the resurrection, no, I don't think so. Paul said we are asleep in Christ, that doesn't sound like we are having a party or watching people still walking around on this earth. I like High Pulpit's thoughts.
Hope all have a blessed and peaceful weekend.
-
ok Marquez,
Well how do you find understanding without at least trying to formulate some of your own thoughts? You can parrot back someone else's thoughts and definitions all you want but until you start to put it into your own words you really don't understand. Please don't take my tone as being accusitive or negative.
I like a lot of what you say Marquez on certain subjects, but I see no harm in trying to get to the bottom of something you struggle with and hearing the thoughts of someone else can sometimes help even if you disagree.
I still haven't heard anything concrete on what exactly one's spirit is. I read too many verses that tend to point that it is more than just the breath or something not intimately connected with 'us'. But that we have some form of life after we die until the resurrection, no, I don't think so. Paul said we are asleep in Christ, that doesn't sound like we are having a party or watching people still walking around on this earth. I like High Pulpit's thoughts.
Hope all have a blessed and peaceful weekend.
Many members here have given their thoughts as well as scriptures and excerpts from Ray's teachings regarding this subject. I stated there is nothing wrong with asking questions...the speculation however leads to a dead end.
You stated, "Why does Paul want our breath to be blameless?" Is that what the scriptures says? No, it states spirit. Did you not see my personal comments regarding this? What part are you disagreeing with? Not just with mine, but anyone's?
Are your thoughts formulated with 2 or 3 spiritual witnessess and a spiritual match? You have heard concretely what one's spirit is...you don't believe the scriptures presented and neither Ray's nor anyone else's comments. I already made a thread regarding these issues.
Marques
-
Dear Marques,
As I read your display of knowledge, I stand in awe!!!
What a privilege to be in the company of such brilliant minds!!!!!
However, something is missing.
I wonder what the poor brother that you replied to understood?
How about if he has a job where he works maybe 12 hours a day to support his family,
and don't have time to do all that studying that you obviously do??
It will probably take me 2 whole days to even begin to digest what you listed above.
My dear brother, I endeavour to admonish you in the spirit of love.
And since you have so much knowledge, I am convinced that you know the following scriptures:
"Though I speak with the tongues of man and of angels, and have not
CHARITY, I am become as a sounding brass, or tinkling cymbal.
"And though I have the gift of prophesy, and understand all mysteries, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE;
and though I have all faith, so I could remove mountains, and I have not
CHARITY, I am nothing.
"CHARITY suffers long, and is kind; CHARITY envies not; CHARITY VAUNTS NOT
ITSELF, is not PUFFED UP,"
But wait, where did I see this word PUFFED UP?????
Where can it be????
Oh, here it is! ::)
Silly me :-[
"Now as touching things offered to idols, we know that we all have knowledge.
KNOWLEDGE ------PUFFS UP,--------but charity edifies." 1Cor8:1
You remind me of a time when I thought that I arrived!!!
Yes I was there, and by the grace of God I made it out.
Oh, but wait, I found another scripture for you. [I love you, brother]
"In MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."
[I'm sure that you nkow where this scripture is.]
So, if I or ScarletWren are opposing ourselves, you as an older brother that you clearly are,
show us the love of Christ, and the goodness that is in you in Christ.
I have an issue with your statements that you made earlier.
Namely:
"Try not to look at more than is in there... [Where are not looking for more than is in there, we are looking at WHAT IS IN THERE].
"...because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculations"[ questions are not speculations].
Wait, didn't you write this: "...the honor of the king is to search out a matter???? ??? ??? ???
"...issues that which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the lest" [ to labor to understand does not edify?????] :o :o
"It's a road that leads to a dead end...."[I thought that we came to this site to learn, how is that a dead end?????]
"...you may not completely understand yet......" [you assumed that we are babes] :-[ :-[
"....to falling into carnal activity." Beloved brother, THAT is the very words that does not edify. Dangerous stuff to tell a brother!!!!
And since when, since we are so stupid in the things of God, and clearly babes by your standard, is wrong to ask questions???
Is that carnal???
"Personally, I would think [ I knew a wise man that said: Wait for thought, for you are not ready for thought] it would be
better to continue to seek understanding [ that was pricelees ;) ;) ;) WE ARE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING!!!] than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation. [Thank God you put us in our place!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D]
And since we are so ignorant and dare to formulate, hmmmm, how did you call it? "rampart speculations", we better get to work and
read again Ray's writings.
In conclusion, dear brother you clearly opposing YOURSELF with your own words.
Furthermore, you remind me of a parrot that I had named Jenny. Before she flew away, she learned the sound
of the bark of my dogs!!!Isn't that something?
You repeatedly direct us to Ray's teaching?
What are you afraid of???????
For the love of God [like my ten year old says ], do you think that the moderators of this forum
can't stand a challenge if one of us did not understand or question Ray's teachings???
If Ray is a man of God [I'm sure he is] and a wonderful teacher [clearly] and full of God's wisdom [nobody can convince me otherwise],
along with all the moderators [which have studied his work and the word for a long time] we [in our folly] are no surprise to them.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe we are only in the beginning, and we have been starved for a long time, and by coming here hungry for the truth, also bring our churchite baggage with us, we looking to you to [IN LOVE] [is it there another right way???] to direct us as little disciples???
Or, did you stop to think [between those blows with the bible over our heads], that maybe this brother that dare to , how did you say it?
"speculate", does not have all the time in the world to read as he would like to??
If you are here for a long time [which I see you are], did you ask yourself what image you portray to us that just got here looking for the love, direction, mercy, patience and the such??
If this people are all like you [which there are not] then I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!!!!!
Now, beloved brother, I lift you to the Lord, and I pray for you.
I've been where you are.
I've done the same thing!!!!
I thought that if I teach doctors the latest in emergency medicine, and they looked at me with a dropped jaw, for the knowledge that I possess, I have arrived!!!!
Let the one that thinks he is wise become a fool, that he might be wise.
God made a fool out of me!!!
BLESSED BE HIS HOLY NAME FOREVER!!!!
I beseech you to ponder on your ways!!!
I would conclude with this [for the last time, I promise].
I hope I did not offend you because "a brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city"
I will admonish you to think on this proverb:
"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you:
rebuke a WISE man and he will LOVE you." Prov.9:8
I love you
Ariel
P.S. I am studying the issue of spirit, soul and body. We will get to the bottom of this.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
The truth will stand no matter what we say or think.
Dare to be who you really are and these people in this forum [if they have God's love] they will still love you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Love you more,
Ariel
-
My dear brother, I endeavour to admonish you in the spirit of love.
And since you have so much knowledge, I am convinced that you know the following scriptures:
I never stated I have so much knowledge nor even imply so. If I have, please direct me to my own words.
You remind me of a time when I thought that I arrived!!!
Yes I was there, and by the grace of God I made it out.
??? How so...what do you mean, 'thought I had arrived'?
So, if I or ScarletWren are opposing ourselves, you as an older brother that you clearly are,
show us the love of Christ, and the goodness that is in you in Christ.
Who stated that you are Scarlet Wren oppose yourself? Taking the time to assist with understanding scriptures and/or Ray's teaching is not love?
I have an issue with your statements that you made earlier.
Namely:
"Try not to look at more than is in there... [Where are not looking for more than is in there, we are looking at WHAT IS IN THERE].
You mean when I stated, "Try not to look for more than what's there"? The question was originally asked by you regarding 1 Thess 5:23 where Paul stated spirit, soul, and body. What I was stating is how does Paul listing these 3 does that automatically make man a 3 part being as your comments imply? If I was off-base, I apologize. If not, what are you implying then that you believe this 1 scripture contradicts the many that have been given by multiple members?
"...because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculations"[ questions are not speculations].
Wait, didn't you write this: "...the honor of the king is to search out a matter???? ??? ??? ???
Searching out a manner compared to speculating on a forum devoted to going over spiritual truths (not speculations) is not the same. Please re-read the forum rules or the thread I created regarding observing these forum rules.
"...issues that which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the lest" [ to labor to understand does not edify?????] :o :o
Speculative discussions do not edify as those who speculate tend to hold onto their own pre-conceived belief and refuse to believe scriptures. How is attempting to justify your own personal beliefs edifying to anyone else?
"It's a road that leads to a dead end...."[I thought that we came to this site to learn, how is that a dead end?????]
We all have come here to learn...not to debate topics that Ray and others have went over extensively. As I stated elsewhere, when a counsel of members are giving a member scripture upon scripture with Ray's teachings and that member still does not 'get it', maybe that member needs to read and study more instead of arguing or making fruitless points.
"...you may not completely understand yet......" [you assumed that we are babes] :-[ :-[
No, I don't...I assume when someone asks questions and/or continue to imply contrary to what is being taught on BT, then that person HAS NOT READ NOR STUDIED Ray's teachings. Which is the complete opposite of what the forum rules state.
"....to falling into carnal activity." Beloved brother, THAT is the very words that does not edify. Dangerous stuff to tell a brother!!!!
And since when, since we are so stupid in the things of God, and clearly babes by your standard, is wrong to ask questions???
Is that carnal???
Doctrine speculation is a carnal activity...does the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth or rampant speculation? Is it the spirit of God that makes you want to know any and every doctrine issue RIGHT NOW without taking the time to read and study or is it your own carnal reasoning?
"Personally, I would think [ I knew a wise man that said: Wait for thought, for you are not ready for thought] it would be
better to continue to seek understanding [ that was pricelees ;) ;) ;) WE ARE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING!!!] than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation. [Thank God you put us in our place!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D]
Continue to belittle me if you wish...expressing my personal thought is not meant to 'put one in their place'.
And since we are so ignorant and dare to formulate, hmmmm, how did you call it? "rampart speculations", we better get to work and
read again Ray's writings.
I have never called a brother or sister on the forum 'ignorant'. If you are truly going to continue to read and study Ray's teachings, good. But if you are just patronizing because you disdain my words, oh well...
In conclusion, dear brother you clearly opposing YOURSELF with your own words.
Which words are those?
Furthermore, you remind me of a parrot that I had named Jenny. Before she flew away, she learned the sound
of the bark of my dogs!!!Isn't that something?
You repeatedly direct us to Ray's teaching?
What are you afraid of???????
For the love of God [like my ten year old says ], do you think that the moderators of this forum
can't stand a challenge if one of us did not understand or question Ray's teachings???
If Ray is a man of God [I'm sure he is] and a wonderful teacher [clearly] and full of God's wisdom [nobody can convince me otherwise],
along with all the moderators [which have studied his work and the word for a long time] we [in our folly] are no surprise to them.
1. I direct you to Ray's teachings because I am not a teacher and even if I were, the forum is not for teaching.
2. Why would I be afraid?
3. The purpose of the mods is not to 'challenge' and debate with members. Your very words speak of your intentions.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe we are only in the beginning, and we have been starved for a long time, and by coming here hungry for the truth, also bring our churchite baggage with us, we looking to you to [IN LOVE] [is it there another right way???] to direct us as little disciples???
I speak very direct but that does not mean it is not 'in love'. The truth grinds on people's ears and hearts...this discussion is another example.
Or, did you stop to think [between those blows with the bible over our heads], that maybe this brother that dare to , how did you say it?
"speculate", does not have all the time in the world to read as he would like to??
Now scripture are blows to your head? I thought scripture was for reproof and correction. Do you not believe these words that Paul was inspired to say?
What does not having time to read and study have to do with arguing against or implying differently than what is being taught on BT? You have time to post...make time to read and study the scriptures and Ray's teachings.
If you are here for a long time [which I see you are], did you ask yourself what image you portray to us that just got here looking for the love, direction, mercy, patience and the such??
You don't want direction...you state that that is only 'parroting' what we heard.
If this people are all like you [which there are not] then I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!!!!!
This is the pride issue that Dennis mentioned with those who have left in the 'Where are they now' thread. History repeats itself indeed...
Now, beloved brother, I lift you to the Lord, and I pray for you.
I've been where you are.
I've done the same thing!!!!
I thought that if I teach doctors the latest in emergency medicine, and they looked at me with a dropped jaw, for the knowledge that I possess, I have arrived!!!!
Let the one that thinks he is wise become a fool, that he might be wise.
God made a fool out of me!!!
BLESSED BE HIS HOLY NAME FOREVER!!!!
Whenever we rely on our own carnal reasoning, we make a fool out of ourselves. God does not need to help us in that department at all.
P.S. I am studying the issue of spirit, soul and body. We will get to the bottom of this.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
The truth will stand no matter what we say or think.
Dare to be who you really are and these people in this forum [if they have God's love] they will still love you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I am who God has made me to be...and you are offended. You resist direction and correction because you would rather we all indulge in your own pre-conceived beliefs. No thank you...
Marques
-
Marques and Ariel,
Please continue this in private emails or PM's.
Dennis
-
Dear brother Marques,
You are fighting a lost battle!
Yea, your are the one that lost.
And since I clearly see now that I have more sense that you, I will end this now,
without going any further.
But not before I make the following statements:
This is the conclusions that I arrived [from your posts only] as I ponder on this issue:
1. That if we don't know Ray's teaching in depth, I have two options:
A: You have no business here in the league with the the VERY ELECT which you PROFESS to be
or
B: If we want to be here, fake and pretend that you know.
2. How easy is to turn into a Pharisee.
3. That I can exchange the mask that I had in the church for a new one.
4. How hard if for man to admit that they made a mistake.
5. How easy is lose the love for our fellow man.
Thanks be unto God, that he left checks and balance in 1Cor 13.
If I were you [I was you, but no longer] I would go and read again the above chapter.
You enlisted the Lord Jesus as talking with authority.
Are you implying that you are like Him?
Because, as far as I know my Jesus, he also had love and tenderness, which you, my brother are devoid of.
Furthermore,
My Master Jesus made these statements:
"But it shall not be so among you: but WHOSOEVER will be GREAT among you,
let him be your servant;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him become your servant:
EVEN AS THE SON OF MAN CAME NOT TO BE MINISTERED TO, BUT TO MINISTER,
AND TO GIVE HIS LIFE A RANSOM FOR MANY."
Clearly you are great, but you remained a Pharisee!!
Do you remember the parable with the servant where the master had forgiven a large debt
than he turned around and he was unforgiven to the one who was owing him a smaller debt? [Mathew 18:23-35]
Do you remember what that lord did to the unforgiving servant?
Yea, that one, you got it!!
Now, my question is this:
Who died and make you moderator?
Or you think that if a brother or sister "rambles" are they[the moderators] not capable to admonish that one?
I did not hear anything from them!!
Hmmmmmm, I wonder why???
Because THEY ARE WISE AND KNOW THE LOVE OF GOD!!!
I said some stupid and idiotic things, but Kat direct me gently towards the truth.
And I got it!!! ;D ;D
The word of God said that mercy and truth had kissed eachother, not just truth.
I am appalled at your attitude!!!
If this is what I should look forward to, I don't want it!!!
I might as well throw away all the teachings that I printed and rely on the Spirit of truth to teach me.
You talk about the whore of Babylon, but if you continue like that you're no better. :'( :'( :'(
So, let me leave you with this:
If myself or my brother Scarlet made a mistake, you that are so wise should have caused us to see the way.
But wait, what scripture I know that reflects that??
"But if you have stood in my counsel, and had caused My people to hear my
words, then THEY SHOULD HAVE ------TURNED---------FROM THEIR EVIL WAY
and from the evil of their doings."
Clearly you have not cause us to turn, but beat us with a rod of your authority!!! :'( :'( :'(
I ask for your forgiveness if I stepped on some of your holy toes, and I pray that God will heal your toes.
I also pray that if I am wrong to humble me in front of you all!!!
And if he does, it will be His will and for my benefit.
There are no coincidences, right??
So, if this happened, it happened for a reason, IT IS THE WILL OF GOD!!!
Therefore, is either me that I need humbling or you.
If I am the one, I bow my head to the Lord any day.
If you ......only the Lord knows!!!
I forgive you, and let you have the last word.
I will not bring up this matter unless the moderators ask me to.
Grace, love and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ! ;D
Ariel
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From Indiana bob
Copyright Leslie A Turvey, 2008
The apostle Paul wrote, “Be angry, but sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath (Ephesians 4:26).”
The Good News Bible says it this way, “If you become angry, do not let your anger lead you into sin, and do not stay angry all day.”
Many people think Paul’s admonition, “let not the sun go down upon your wrath,” means don’t go to bed angry. That’s good advice, because your unresolved anger will cause you to toss and turn all night, and in the morning you’ll wonder if you slept at all.
But note what the GNB says: “do not stay angry all day.” God’s days begin at sunset, so if you hang on to your anger when the sun goes down, you’re actually carrying it into another day. And, if that day, then likely another and another and so on.
Two farmers, Tom and Ed, had been good neighbours for many years, but one day, while Tom was hunting, he accidentily killed one of Ed’s pigs.
Now, if Ed had been a bible-abiding man he would have done what Jesus commanded in Matthew 18:15, “If someone does you wrong, go and discuss the matter with him.” But instead, Ed chose to shoot one of Tom’s sheep.
There’s a wise saying, “When you seek revenge, dig two graves.” And Ed’s revenge caused many more graves to be dug. Some were for livestock, but the feud escalated until family members became targets, and eventually Tom and Ed were laid to rest.
Years later only one son from each family remained. One day the two met in town, and each drew his gun. Then, after a short standoff one fellow put his gun back into its holster: the other did likewise. The townsfolk were astounded to see the two men shaking hands, and going together for a beer.
What made the difference? They both realized the cause of the feud had long been forgotten, and their deaths would solve nothing. So, although it was way too late, the feud was finally called off.
Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night begins, “If music be the food of love, play on.” An opposite to that might be, “If anger be the food of feuds, stop playing.” Too often anger over rather insignificant matters leads to reprisals and feuds.
Christians don’t get into shoot-em-up feuds, of course, but too many Christians carry on feuds of words. Sometimes it’s open argument between two people, but more often it’s a matter of sniping: a cutting word here; a sideway glance there. Naturally the two parties have their cohorts, and whispers and finger-pointing take place.
Here’s a revelation for you: the same things took place in the early Christian churches. The apostle Paul must have seen it in the congregation at Ephesus because he wrote, “I plead with you that your life measures up to the standard God set when he called you, always being humble, gentle, and patient. Express your love by being tolerant of each other, and do all you can to preserve peace and unity (Ephesians 4:1-3) which is a fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9).” He continued, “Get rid of all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and shouting, and insults, and hateful feelings. Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you (Ephesians 4:31-32).” Remember, Jesus says we’re to ask God to forgive us, in the same way, and in the same measure, that we forgive others (Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4).
So we have God’s command that we put our guns back into their holsters, shake hands, and go together in peace.
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(Php 2:1) If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
(Php 2:2) Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
(Php 2:3) Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
(Php 2:4) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
(Php 2:5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
beloved
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I am definitely not a babe in Christ. I have pastored and taught very "apostically" for years until I realised the very many doctrinal errors in Mystery Babylon which cannot contain me now. Praise God, I stumbled upon L. Ray Smith and what fine teacher he is, but that does not mean we should assume that everything L. Ray Smith says or scripture-interprets should be regarded as 100% perfectly true. We should also bear in mind that the bible, literally as it is may not all be totally inspired and has a lot of tranlation errors.
I know this is one of the most intriguing topics which will open up a very full understanding of God, mankind and his plan. Let's not limit and short-circuit the great truth-seeking work the Lord has began with L. Ray Smith and with all of us.
God is SPIRIT, Jesus now is LIVING SPIRIT and we are created in His image and we can't just blow away interesting thoughts and views which also have some scriptural basis (if you have got deep enough into the things of God you will agree with me that the bible presents a very complex maze which leads to many viewpoints. God loves parables and we need and will always need His help to understand and that requires that we keep on searching and be ready to check and test and prove all things)
Let's just stick to the topic and give our thoughts and sciptural viewpoints.
If you want the full truth, you must continue to question. I believe God has set His revelation such that ... in that day (or could it be a personal attainment of a spiritual level?), we shall know Him even as we are known of Him. If you are not there yet (which I believe none of us is yet), continue to question the MASTER, my friends.
In the context of this topic and discussion,
Can someone explain, when Paul says: " If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit (is this breath?) prays but my understanding (is this not soul?) is unfruitful?
Thank You
Check on you tomorrow.
Love you ALL!!!
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I know this is one of the most intriguing topics which will open up a very full understanding of God, mankind and his plan. Let's not limit and short-circuit the great truth-seeking work the Lord has began with L. Ray Smith and with all of us.
Excerpt from 'How the Forum is Moderated':
Ray does not cover all that is within scripture but what he does cover we believe to be true; as such we try our best to keep discussions centered on Ray’s teaching of the scripture and to keep out the leaven of other teachings. If we didn’t do this, how long do you think it would take for the forum to turn into chaos? Who would you trust to determine what is right? I say the Spirit revealed this to me and you say the Spirit revealed something entirely different, who do you trust? What of this scripture?
Many members have posted numerous references from Ray's papers & emails regarding soul, spirit, and body. If you do not agree wholeheartedly with them and believe the scriptures imply otherwise, why not email Ray? It's not about limiting the truth it's just no one here (that's I've read) has stated they are a teacher even on a lesser level than Ray. Your questions keep coming back to the same thing: they seem to imply that you think differently than what Ray has taught on using 1 or 2 scriptures here and there. That's fine, really it is. But the forum is not a place for members to teach each other Ray's teachings. It is a place for those to congregate when they do believe and understand.
Members here express their viewpoints in agreement with Ray's teachings. If they feel otherwise or feel lead to a deeper discussion of a subject that Ray has not touched on, they do not bring that to the forum. That is not the purpose of the forum. This is the #1 attribute that separates this forum from 'Christian' forums. Otherwise, believe it or not, chaos would ensue as any and everyone would be wanted to teach here. Again, that is not the purpose of the forum.
Please don't think that I wish to 'shut you down' or stop seeking after the Lord, it's just remember what the purpose of the forum is about. It's the same rules WE ALL AGREED UPON when we joined.
Thanks,
Marques
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I am definitely not a babe in Christ. I have pastored and taught very "apostically" for years until I realised the very many doctrinal errors in Mystery Babylon which cannot contain me now. Praise God, I stumbled upon L. Ray Smith and what fine teacher he is, but that does not mean we should assume that everything L. Ray Smith says or scripture-interprets should be regarded as 100% perfectly true. We should also bear in mind that the bible, literally as it is may not all be totally inspired and has a lot of tranlation errors.
I can agree that there are apparent contradictions and translation errors in the many versions of the Bible, but isn't a bit presumptuous to declare that these things were not inspired or preordained? Could man really do this of his own accord? I am not trying to be confrontational but can man do anything without God allowing it, can we thwart Him?
In regard to mistranlations could they be what Paul is speaking of here?
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The above verse would seem to fit with the following as well;
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book.
Paul wrote;
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
One could ask, so what is up with that? All of it is inspired yet we have this dire warning about adding or taking away from the Word? Is He in charge or what? As Ray brought up many times "if God had not allowed it than there would be no need for this declaration," so we must contemplate the purpose of His reason for allowing these mistranslations. It goes back to the bible being one big parable/riddle even sacred secret.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.
The other part of your statement I totally agree with is how God uses riddles and parables in speaking to his people, Ray goes so far to say the entire Bible is indeed a parable!
Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;
Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries3466 of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand.
(Personally I believe secret is a better translation than mystery)
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Marques brought up a very important point in his response;
Members here express their viewpoints in agreement with Ray's teachings. If they feel otherwise or feel lead to a deeper discussion of a subject that Ray has not touched on, they do not bring that to the forum. That is not the purpose of the forum. This is the #1 attribute that separates this forum from 'Christian' forums. Otherwise, believe it or not, chaos would ensue as any and everyone would be wanted to teach here. Again, that is not the purpose of the forum.
Please don't think that I wish to 'shut you down' or stop seeking after the Lord, it's just remember what the purpose of the forum is about. It's the same rules WE ALL AGREED UPON when we joined.
Without a doubt this is very true, this Forum's purpose is to discuss the articles on Bible Truths, it is also true that once we weave away from the original intent of this guideline the debates, strife, accusations, hurt feelings, etc. take hold and spiritual edification is replaced by clashes of egos (the beast lives!).
It happens every time we moderators fail to address the issue as it begins to manifest itself. There is so much material we can discuss, ask questions about, expound upon and testify to the implications of or the life changing attributes they have produced.
I do not know of any serious member who does not verify the scriptures Ray quotes and blindly accepts everything written, but we have had many new folks come through here saying they do not agree 100% with what he has written. Actually there is no problem with disagreeing but if we follow the rules we have all agreed to when we joined those disagreements should be brought directly to Ray.
If anyone has a question or comment about the rules or a question about any articles on BT please feel free to PM me (or another moderator) and we will do the best we can in getting you an answer.
Peace,
Joe
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I'm still hoping to get some inputs on 1 Cor 14:10- where Paul states "my spirit prays, but mu uderstanding (which must be soul) is unfruitful" and he goes on to say "..I will sing with my spirit and I will sing with my understanding also...)
I was reading Heb 4 yersterday and verse 12 talks about the division by the Word of God of and makes parallels (not equals) of the following:
Joints and Marrow
"="
Soul and Spirit
"="
Thoughts and Intents
Think about this.
Any inputs?
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Some few more thoughts:
*************Sorry Teaching not allowed*******************
Then, let's not shy away from understanding "spirit" !!!
Thank you.
On this topic, I think from now on I will proceed to send e-mails to Ray as I don't want to break any forum rules.
I would gladly welcome comments, inputs and any excerpts from Ray's teachings that would help me.
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Falcon
Forgive my misquoting of verse 10/14..... I'm typing in my workplace, lunchtime, with no bible close to me.
About my last post quoting Hebrews 4:12, I admit I may not have perfectly illustrated my intention:
1.Joints and marrow 2. Soul and Spirit 3. Thoughts and Intents
of the heart (inner man)
are 3 groups of concepts which are being paralleled with each group having two elements which are being clearly separated and divided.
The aim of the parallel, a parable you may say, is to achieve (relational) understanding.
Now let me ask, if joints, thoughts and soul are being paralleled
and marrow, intents and spirit are being paralleled on the other hand,
is it far-fetched to conclude that a soul has thoughts and a spirit has intents (or purposes, from the Divine consciousness it came from and in whose image it is, in the first place. And now you can think about my earlier post about Paul praying, singing, blessing God with his spirit and Jesus seeking true worshippers to worship in spirit...... Also: Jeremiah, "Before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you and ordained you to be a prophet (here goes the intents)....,Say not you are a child (there goes the thoughts)... For you shall go to all that I shall send you..."(and that is the work of the Lord, Praise God!!!)...) ?
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As I wrote earlier, I will try to abide by all forum rules and gladly welcome any sanctions in pure love, peace and understanding.
Falcon, I like the following scripture you quoted in your last post and would like you to analyse it more carefully :
Deuteronomy 32:14
Thus saith the Lord God: I myself will take of the MARROW of the high CEDAR, and will set it: I will crop off a tender twig from the top of the branches thereof, and I will plant it on a mountain high and eminent.
I hereby proceed to stay off this topic but would very much love Ray to be given my questions which were deleted in a previous posting.
God bless
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As I wrote earlier, I will try to abide by all forum rules and gladly welcome any sanctions in pure love, peace and understanding.
Falcon, I like the following scripture you quoted in your last post and would like you to analyse it more carefully :
Deuteronomy 32:14
Thus saith the Lord God: I myself will take of the MARROW of the high CEDAR, and will set it: I will crop off a tender twig from the top of the branches thereof, and I will plant it on a mountain high and eminent.
I hereby proceed to stay off this topic but would very much love Ray to be given my questions which were deleted in a previous posting.
God bless
I never ANALYZE Scripture. so i am not any help in that matter,,,sorry but it is like 100+ scriptures that instruct/command me, too let the Holy Spirit show me Knowledge of the Word of God, instead of applying me own worldy knowledge to the Gosple..... tis me.
Peace
Rodger
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Thank You !
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Wow, what a controversial subject!
I thought that we can solve this, but it is so difficult, seeing that we all don't speak the same language.
Whitout entangling myself too deep into this maze, I will say that I found the following explanation
from John Westley's explanatory notes on the Bible, on 1Th.5:23, which was my original question.
'And may the God of peace sanctify you-By the peace he works in you, which is a great means of sanctification.
Wholly-The word signifies wholly and perfectly; every part and all that concerns you;
all that is of or about you.
And may the whole of you, the spirit, and the soul, and the body-just before he said you; NOW HE DENOMINATES THEM FROM
THE SPIRITUAL STATE.
The spirit (Gal.6:8); wishing that it may be preserved whole and entire; then from their natural state, the soul and the body;
THESE TWO MAKE UP THE WHOLE NATURE OF MAN, (Mat.10:28) wishing it may be preserved blameless till the coming of Christ."
"TO EXPLAIN A LITTLE FURTHER: OF THESE THREE HERE MENTIONED, ONLY THE TWO LAT ARE THE NATURAL CONSTITUENT
PARTS OF MAN. THE FIRST (SPIRIT) IS ADVENTITIOUS, AND THE SUPERNATURAL GIFT OF GOD, TO BE FOUND IN CHRISTIANS
ONLY."
"That man cannot be possibly consists of three parts, appears hence: The soul is either matter or not matter: there is no medium.
But if is matter, it is part of the body:if not matter, it coincides with the Spirit."
This explanation make complete sense to me, and answers my previous question of how we are different from the rest of the world.
We are different because we have received a downpayment of the Spirit of God, a seal!!
To me, on Heb.4:12, after the Spirit is given, it separates the wheat from the shaft. The old from the new. The process is hidden,
and little by little is accomplished.(Deut.7;10, Isa.28:10) the bitter water from the sweet(James3).The great Seperator will do this.
Furthermore, this explanation is congruent with Ray's teaching (as far as man, two part is concerned),and the bible.
I must add, that as Rodger wrote in his post, that SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING must be given to us.
I TOTALLY AGREE!!! ;D ;D ;D
God is LOVE. In order to understand Him, we must speak his language, THE LOVE LANGUAGE!
That's why (like Ray wrote, the apostles, and everybody else for that matter) did not understand Jesus.
HE was not speaking their LANGUAGE!!!
They were speaking phileo, and HE was speaking agape.
We strive to understand each other, but, we agree in some points, and we disagree in others. I always wonder why?
Because we are still mixture.
TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE, WE NEED TO SPEAK THE LANGUAGE OF GOD!!!
God is Love, therefore He speaks lovish.
Only those who speak this language can be given passage over Jordan!!
I adventure further to prove this by Scripture:
In Judges, ch.12, we meet Jephthah, (which is a type of Jesus Christ) that was called by Gileadites to
lead them in battle against the Ammonites. They did this after they (the Gileadites) has first rejected him (see ch.11).
Jephthah accepts the challenge, and lead them in battle and won!!!
So, we meet him here in chapter 12, after he had won, where the "man of Ephraim" (recall that the tribe of Ephraim
is from the original tribe of the children of Israel, THEREFORE THEY ARE BROTHERS), come against Jephthah and the Gileadites to
accuse them falsely.
Jephthah rebukes them, come against them and smote them at the passage of Jordan.
Then, he catches up with the Ephraimites that escaped, and they beg him to let them pass over Jordan.
NOW THE TRUE TEST IS PLACED ON THEM!!!tHEY WERE ASKED TO SAY THE PASSWORD!!!!!
ONLY THOSE WHO TRULY ARE CHOSEN KNOW THE PASSWORD, THEY HAVE THE KEYS OF THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN,
THOSE WHO HAD BEEN TAUGHT THE LOVISH LANGUAGE!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
HERE IT IS:
"And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so,
that those Ephraimites which were escaped said, LET ME GO OVER; (as many are begging Jesus to let them in)
that the man of Gilead [the chosen] said to him, Are you an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay: (there were lying)
"Then said they to him, [here comes the test!!! ;D] Say now SHIBBOLETH: and he said SIBBOLETH:
FOR HE COULD NOT FRAME TO PRONOUNCE (enunciate) IT RIGHT. Then they took him, AND SLEW HIM
AT THE PASSAGES OF JORDAN: and there fell at the time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand."
Judges12:5,6 (emphasis mine)
That's why people can say scripture, can quote scripture, can list scripture, but an H is missing!
For the unlearned, there is no difference, but for the one who speaks lovish, they can discern which is which.
That's why myself and my husband cannot understand eachother, we speak a different language!
If you go to Rev.7, the tribe of Ephraim did not make the list!!
These are the ones who wants to take it [the kindom] by violence. They can't!
Further prof that there is a language of love, is in 1Cor.13:1:
"Though I speak with the TONGUES (languages) of man and angels (angels only hear and speak the
word of God, Psa.103:20), and have not CHARITY, I am become as SOUNDIDNG BRASS, or a
TINKLING CYMBAL. (the one that is scratching the ears, THAT'S WHY THE ONES IN BABYLON
HEAP TO THEM TEACHERS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE ITCHING EARS THAT NEED SCRATCHING, AND
ONLY AN TINKLING CYMBAL CAN SCATCH THE EARS!!!!)
That's why we "HEARD" Ray!!!!
His voice does not SCRATCH the ears!!!
They cannot hear Ray, because they cannot understand lovish!!
Further poof:
"For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE WILL HE SPEAK to HIS PEOPLE."
Only THE CHOSEN will understand the language of LOVE.
Only to the ones who can hear Him in the wind, in a word of a child, see Him in the clouds, in the tears of a brother,
desire Him until they are utterly consumed with HIS LOVE, when NOTHING in this world can satisfy, when you see Him in the
trees, in the flowers, in the billboards on the highway, the ones who are willing to lay everything down for Him, even the hope of salvation, the ones who don't desire anything apart from Him, that one my friends, is a CHOSEN!!!
SO, LET US LOVE EACH OTHER, THAT IS THE MOST EXELLENT WAY!!!
Shibboleth!! ;D
Ariel
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'And may the God of peace sanctify you-By the peace he works in you, which is a great means of sanctification.
Wholly-The word signifies wholly and perfectly; every part and all that concerns you;
all that is of or about you.
And may the whole of you, the spirit, and the soul, and the body-just before he said you; NOW HE DENOMINATES THEM FROM
THE SPIRITUAL STATE.
The spirit (Gal.6:8); wishing that it may be preserved whole and entire; then from their natural state, the soul and the body;
THESE TWO MAKE UP THE WHOLE NATURE OF MAN, (Mat.10:28) wishing it may be preserved blameless till the coming of Christ."
"TO EXPLAIN A LITTLE FURTHER: OF THESE THREE HERE MENTIONED, ONLY THE TWO LAT ARE THE NATURAL CONSTITUENT
PARTS OF MAN. THE FIRST (SPIRIT) IS ADVENTITIOUS, AND THE SUPERNATURAL GIFT OF GOD, TO BE FOUND IN CHRISTIANS
ONLY."
"That man cannot be possibly consists of three parts, appears hence: The soul is either matter or not matter: there is no medium.
But if is matter, it is part of the body:if not matter, it coincides with the Spirit."
This explanation make complete sense to me, and answers my previous question of how we are different from the rest of the world.
We are different because we have received a downpayment of the Spirit of God, a seal!!
Hello Ariel,
One question regarding this explanation of the spirit: If 1 Thess 5:23 is referring to the Holy Spirit and not the life-giving spirit that is in all men and beasts, why would Paul pray for the Holy Spirit to be santified? Isn't it the Holy Spirit which works in sanctifying us? That is what I thought was the big difference between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of life within us: the Holy Spirit is pure and leads us into all truth.
Thanks,
Marques
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That is a great question!
Give me, I begg, a little time, to think how I can properly explain that.
I have some housework to do until later.
Thank you.
Your sister, Ariel
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Just my 2 cents, seems Gen 2:7, 6:17, 7:15, all speak of the breath of life that makes the man a living soul.
The other Scriptures speak of the (Holy) Spirit Of God; and (breath) spirit of man. Hope i am not confusing
the issue but there is a lot of sound and fury here it seems.
Genesis 2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
Genesis 6:17:
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath
of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:15:
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Isaiah 42:1:
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he
shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles
Isaiah 48:16:
Come all of you near unto me, hear all of you this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the
time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, has sent me.
Isaiah 59:21:
As for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD; My spirit that is upon you, and my words which I
have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of
the mouth of your seed's seed, says the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Ezekiel 11:24:
Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the
captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.
Zechariah 12:1:
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, says the LORD, which stretches forth the heavens, and lays
the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Matthew 12:32:
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against
the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 3:29:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Luke 3:16:
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the
latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:
george.
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Hello, Marques
I thought about the explanation that I posted, and then to your question.
Now that you ask that, I can see that John Wesley did not help me much either.
Your question made me see that that explanation did not make that much sense after all.
Did you ever had something like that happen to you? Hmm ::)
Now I am more confused than ever.
I will pray and meditate on this.
In my experience, when I cannot get a satisfactory understanding, is because:
1. The answer is deep in Jordan, and I'm not there yet, or
2. I am not ready to receive the "light" on that scripture, because the Lord has other plans.
Thank you for opening my eyes! ;D
Dear George, awesome scriptures! A lot to think about!
In His Love,
Ariel
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Hello, Marques
Your question made me see that that explanation did not make that much sense after all.
Did you ever had something like that happen to you? Hmm ::)
Oh, all the time...then I remember Ray's paper on 12 spiritual truths. That's helped me tremendously with understanding scriptures.
The thing I think can be confusing about spirit, is when you think of it 'only' as breath of life. True, that is one aspect but look at a definition from a concordance:
Spirit
Gk. pneuma
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
The spirit causes our body to be 'animated' or to have movement. Spirit is 'how' you move and do. Paul is not praying that 'how' you move and do be sanctified as it has no moral basis. Paul is praying that 'what' you move and do be sanctified and Paul knows that the spirit is 'how' you do this or that.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
A person is born and has life. Their spirit is only giving them life; the ability to move and do. This person chooses to 'move and do' for unlawful gain or stealing. They are using the spirit of life in them to steal. The spirit of life in them is not what causes them to sin; their carnal mind is the cause. But they are still using the means to 'move and do' for ungodliness. This is the very opposite of what Paul prays for: For us to not use the means to 'move and do' for ungodliness.
Well, as you can see, I am definitely not a teacher...but I hope this helps nonetheless. Keep searching through Ray's emails and check out his 2nd paper to Dr. Kennedy as he teaches on this subject as well.
Thanks,
Marques
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1 Corinthians chapter 2 has this :
....."who KNOWS the things of a man, but the spirit of the man which is in him, even so the things of God KNOWS no man but the Spirit of God"...
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1 Corinthians chapter 2 has this :
....."who KNOWS the things of a man, but the spirit of the man which is in him, even so the things of God KNOWS no man but the Spirit of God"...
High Pulpit,
If you believe the spirit in man rather than the soul of a man has perception, feelings, emotions, thoughts, etc....just say so.
Does Ray teach that the soul has these things: YES.
If you disagree, please email Ray. This issue has been beaten into the ground enough.
Marques
P.S. Spirit is not just 'breath'...it is LIFE! The 'life' in a man is mindful to the things of this world...the 'spiritual life' [spirit of God] in a man is mindful of the things of God. How you move and do...one is worldly the other is Godly and righteous.
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This topic has run it's course. So I'm locking it.
Dennis