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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: bob on April 28, 2014, 02:39:55 PM
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Jesus, God?
« on: May 31, 2007, 10:27:28 PM »
Ray commented on this verse saying, "Jesus emphatically declared that no man at any time has ever seen or HEAR THE VOICE of God His Father" (John 1:18; 5:37; Matt. 11:27; John 6:46; Luke 10:22, etc., etc.)
Was he just referring to the Jews at that time or does this still apply now in our time?
Bob
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Col 1:15 is one of the major Scriptures that explain how God is.
Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. The Father is the invisible Force behind everything. He is outside our five senses. He cannot be seen or heard by us.
Jesus is His visible image. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Jesus is the only access to the invisible God.
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it is an interesting question
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
as opposed to Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
many thousands saw Christ according to the gospels,Jesus was crowded all the time, then Paul was introduced as well, literally this word is so big we are puny in what we call knowledge, Ray has some stuff on his understanding of the question i think i heard it on an audio
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many thousands saw Christ according to the gospels,Jesus was crowded all the time, then Paul was introduced as well, literally this word is so big we are puny in what we call knowledge, Ray has some stuff on his understanding of the question i think i heard it on an audio
As Ray pointed out: Not many became disciples:
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
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Thanks John and Ian, so would we agree that the voice heard from heaven when John Baptized Jesus was not God the father? Even though it said this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. If so how would we explain to someone questioning the scripture itself as being UN true, if in fact it was not God the father in that case? If the scripture is true then wouldn’t it be God the father speaking?
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Hi bob,
Here a email that explains that verse.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---
Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him." The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message. Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
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Even before the Jew and at the time of Jew many of them had already heard and seen God.
At the time of disciples they clearly see and hear God himself.
Then Jesus told them that no one heard and seen His Father at anytime..........
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My question came from this comment I found while searching the internet:
"In the three gospel accounts of the transfiguration of Jesus in Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9, Peter, James and John heard a voice say, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear him!" (Matthew 17:5). Simple logic tells us that this was the voice of God the Father. It could not have been an angel, or the words would be a lie!" Aha, but I just remembered Ray saying Jesus said tell no one the vision. It was a vision. I guess that would also apply to any references of God speaking in Revelation. If I may borrow a quote from Ray, " Am I off track on this" Bob
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I am only asking about this because as I was reading the post, Genesis 2:16 came to mind as well as Gen. 3:8 thru- what command, voice, sound did man/Adam hear. Just so you know I must believe John 5:37
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All of this is easy to understand if two basic, paramount truths are understood by the power of the Holy Spirit.
1) God does not lie.
2) God's Word does not lie.
That means there are no true contradictions in the Scriptures! No, not one.
Of course, the unlearned and unstable can find hundreds, if not thousands of apparent contradictions in the Scriptures, and these apparent contradictions are the source of their unbelief.
When Jesus says that no one has seen or heard His Father--that is absolute truth. There can be no contradiction of this basic truth or Jesus is a liar. Which cannot be so because Jesus is God and does not lie.
Therefore, when others hear a voice that says, "This is my beloved Son", that voice is not the voice of the Father.
Whose voice is it? As Ray simply stated it, it is the voice of a messenger. A messenger brings a message. There are no two Scriptures that say the voice was actually the voice of the Father.
In Col 1:15 and elsewhere, Jesus is the image of the invisible God. In John 1:1 Jesus is called the Word or Spokesman or Expression of God.
The Father is invisible Spirit outside our five senses and our comprehension. If the Father could be seen or heard, then why would Jesus be needed as His visible image or His Word?
In the Old Testament, when God is seen or heard, it is therefore not the Father. It is the One we know as Jesus.
None of the Scriptures contradict, which is why those with God's Spirit can have peace and understanding, if they believe the Scriptures by the Grace of God.
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Thanks JFK I believed this all along. I was looking for loop holes and you just shut them as far as I am concerned. Back on track====== Bob
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Bob,
I believe all of this is a matter of understanding, we are given spiritual ears and eyes.(if we ask ,are led to ask)all of us see dimly ...1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then(as we grow in him) face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
So i would think we are in process of getting to know him or see him for who he really is (this to me is the perfecting process).
We see The Father with spiritual eyes ,the eyes of our hearts If we are at a stage where" ïf you have seen me ,You have seen the father" our understanding (eyes) are being opened.
So the statement "no MAN has seen the father nor heard his Voice" could this possibly apply to "NO CARNAL, SELF INDULGENT BEAST" who is prideful in his understanding of literal ,logical translations
Seems I need to ask for more grace in order to understand. I have been reminded of a few scriptures....
The lords Messenger said to Moses you cannot see my face and live ( is this when we see his face we die spiritually)?Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Lest a kernel fall to the ground and die it cannot (see GOD) perhaps.....
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.( Does Moses represent Christ in this verse?he is about to die (because he has seen God with his spiritual eyes) and Joshua is getting prepared to lead) ??
As I said Interesting Question
Its a matter of the degree of understanding one has been given at least that is what I believe
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Folks,
I have been told that the phrase "face to face" could have been translated "i have been in the presence of".
In those days before telephones, ;D when dignitaries visited a foreign nation they spoke with authority from having it delegated to them by a ruler such as a king or emperor. So the credentials were proven by the statement that the message came from the King and not from some lower level servant.
So when the English translation says I have seen the face of God or [god a superior person] it could have been translated I believe that I felt God's presence and am sure that the message given to me in my mind or via a vision was from God. Of that they had no doubt.
The translation of foreign tongues is a very subjective discipline and we need to be careful to discover whether it is a word for word translation even in the case where there is no exact word in the other language or whether it is a translation of what was meant by the original author, but put in terms that are close to what would have been understood by a native speaker living during the exact time period in question.
That's why it is dangerous to take a statement from scripture that stands alone, when we should compare the statement with the whole of scripture in context.
I do believe that Ray Smith covered this topic in his letters.
Indiana Bob
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Hi Ian, most translations do not even have the word "man" in the verse.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
And if you use that logic then Jesus Christ was a man when He made that comment, so I think it included Himself that had not seen the Father's face. The Father is not a person or even a being to have a face or voice and that is what the Son was for, "the Word made flesh" and "the image of God."
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory (that was speaking of the believers with the Spirit indwelling), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
But in the account of Moses in Exodus 33 in verse 11 it says "so the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Then down in verse 18 it seems that Moses is asking for something different, v. "he said, "Please, show me Your glory" and that is when the LORD said in verse 20, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." So it seems the same words face or face to face can mean something different in different places in Scripture, I guess that is where spiritual discernment comes in. When the LORD appeared to somebody in the OT, and that would always have been the Son who would become Jesus Christ, like in verse 11 it seems to have been in a image/form that was like a normal human being. But the glorious 'face' was a totally different thing, but He did allow Moses a glimpse.
Exo 33:22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
v. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."
All of the images of people seeing "the LORD" in the OT is the Son, not the Father, but even then it would not be the Son in His glorious state of being.
Gen 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land."
Gen 26:24 And the LORD appeared to him (Isaac) the same night and said...
1Sam 3:21 Then the LORD appeared again in Shiloh. For the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
I think there is a parable in the exchange between Moses and the LORD in Ex 33, as is usually the case. Since Moses predated Christ appearing in the flesh, and there Moses wanted to 'see' or maybe know His glory, but as you were talking about the spiritual, I think this is speaking of the "face" or presence that reflects the spiritual/glorious aspect of His Being. This glory may have been reserved to be revealed more so later, to the elect as it was revealed to Paul.
2Co 12:2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
v.7 and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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The fact is, God has an image!
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26
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Kat there are some translated Man, the version "You" would apply to the disciples ( unregenerate )?
Yes I agree the word face is speaking of spiritual sight/presence, not an actual face,
thanks
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The fact is, God has an image!
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26
The Father's image is the Son. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So, yes, God is invisible and also has an image.
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Hi Ian, unregenerate yes, but actually it was not the disciples He was speaking to. In this chapter the verses before show that on this occasion Jesus was in the Temple speaking to the Jews.
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
v. 15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
v. 16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
v. 17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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The fact is, God has an image!
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26
The Father's image is the Son. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So, yes, God is invisible and also has an image.
Greetings Nathan,
I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)
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I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)
Hi santgem, well there are quite a few times where "the Lord" or the "Angel of the Lord," the Son did appear to people in the OT as a 'man.' I believe that "the Angel of the Lord" was actually the name of God in the OT, as that is what was the name initially in the episode of burning bush, but then it states it is the LORD.
Exo 3:2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
v. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
v. 4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
It doesn't seem like He appeared as a man in the burning bush, but He also appeared to Gideon as "the Angel of the Lord... face to face."
Jdg 6:12 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him, and said to him, "The LORD is with you, you mighty man of valor!"
Jdg 6:22 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face."
v. 23 Then the LORD said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."
He does seem to have appeared to Adam and Eve as a man 'walking' in the cool of the day in the Garden of Eden.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Three 'men' appeared and visited with Abraham and ate a meal with him.
Gen 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
A 'Man' wrestled with Jacob all night and this I believe was a literal event that happened, yet represents a parable about Israel.
Gen 32:24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
v. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
He also appeared to Moses and many elders of the Israelites, I'm not sure what form this was, but it was in some kind of recognizable image and notice He had "feet."
Exo 24:9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
v. 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
So this is the Scripture that I could find that I felt could help to show that the Son did have an image before He was a human man, and when appearing to people in the OT He did literally appear in a human form.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Also, don't forget in the Book of Ezechiel, God appeared in a human form to Ezechiel, out of the whirlwind and with the Cherubim.
The God of the Old Testament, Who appeared in human form, was He Who we know as Jesus.
Actually, that is the form of the visible God. God made man in His (God's) image. Humans look like God.
However, that aspect of God Who Jesus called the Father, is the invisible God, Who we have not seen or heard, because Jesus said so.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The only way to know the Father is through Jesus.
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Oh yes John that certainly is an awesome image and it too depicts God in the form of a man, enthroned above the cherubim or "four living creatures." I'll add the Scripture of it.
Eze 1:4 Then I looked, and behold, a whirlwind was coming out of the north, a great cloud with raging fire engulfing itself; and brightness was all around it and radiating out of its midst like the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
Also there in Daniel that describes His glorious figure, but still He appears as a man.
Dan 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz!
Dan 10:6 His body was like beryl, His face like the appearance of lightning, His eyes like torches of fire, His arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of His words like the voice of a multitude.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)
A 'Man' wrestled with Jacob all night and this I believe was a literal event that happened, yet represents a parable about Israel.
now there is some good food,thanks Kat - like a wow moment
Also I think, back to the topic, the key word here is seen" if you have seen me you have seen the Father" - "I and the father are one" seek and ye shall find - knock and the door (to the kingdom) shall be opened,the father is pleased to shew you the kingdom etc it is not the sight of carnal eye but the spiritual sight we are after - as in open my eyes that i may see - is the key...like Ray said keep asking ,begging.God Jesus Is the fire that purifies us,how do we match up loooong way to go
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Exodus 33:20
Thou canst not: This is well explained by Rabbi Jehudah, in Sepher Cosri (P. iv. § 3): "Of that divine glory mentioned in the Scripture, there is one degree which the eyes of the prophets were able to explore; another which all the Israelites saw, as the cloud and consuming fire; the third is so bright, and so dazzling, that no mortal is able to comprehend it; but should anyone venture to look on it, his whole frame would be dissolved." In such inconceivable splendour is the Divine Majesty revealed to the inhabitants of the celestial world, where he is said to "dwell in the light which no man can approach unto" (1Ti_6:16). By the "face of God," therefore, we are to understand that light inaccessible before which angels may stand, but which would be so insufferable to mortal eyes, that no man could see it and live
anyone agree ?
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Exodus 33:20
Thou canst not: This is well explained by Rabbi Jehudah, in Sepher Cosri (P. iv. § 3): "Of that divine glory mentioned in the Scripture, there is one degree which the eyes of the prophets were able to explore; another which all the Israelites saw, as the cloud and consuming fire; the third is so bright, and so dazzling, that no mortal is able to comprehend it; but should anyone venture to look on it, his whole frame would be dissolved." In such inconceivable splendour is the Divine Majesty revealed to the inhabitants of the celestial world, where he is said to "dwell in the light which no man can approach unto" (1Ti_6:16). By the "face of God," therefore, we are to understand that light inaccessible before which angels may stand, but which would be so insufferable to mortal eyes, that no man could see it and live
anyone agree ?
Well I cannot agree with this considering that God did come down to Moses and "stood with him."
Exo 34:4 So he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.
v. 5 Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
v. 6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,
This is what the LORD said He would do when Moses had asked "to see His glory" in chapter in 33. So Moses as a mere mortal man did stand in the presence of God (though not allowed to see His face) and his whole frame was not dissolved. So actually it is as the Lord said when Moses made the request, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exo 33:19).
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Actually, that is the form of the visible God. God made man in His (God's) image. Humans look like God.
My understanding is that God is making man in His image. I do not believe this is talking about a "physical" image.
1Cor 15:49-50 - "And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. And this I say, brethren —that, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Col 3:9-10,12 - "having stript off the old man, together with his practices, And having put on the new—who is being moulded afresh unto personal knowledge, after the image of Him that hath created him,— Put on, therefore, as men chosen of God, holy and beloved, tender affections of compassion, graciousness, lowliness of mind, meekness, long-suffering"
Rom 1:23 - " And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man..."
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Exodus 33:20
Thou canst not: This is well explained by Rabbi Jehudah, in Sepher Cosri (P. iv. § 3): "Of that divine glory mentioned in the Scripture, there is one degree which the eyes of the prophets were able to explore; another which all the Israelites saw, as the cloud and consuming fire; the third is so bright, and so dazzling, that no mortal is able to comprehend it; but should anyone venture to look on it, his whole frame would be dissolved." In such inconceivable splendour is the Divine Majesty revealed to the inhabitants of the celestial world, where he is said to "dwell in the light which no man can approach unto" (1Ti_6:16). By the "face of God," therefore, we are to understand that light inaccessible before which angels may stand, but which would be so insufferable to mortal eyes, that no man could see it and live
anyone agree ?
No I disagree. I do not need the opinion of any man when truth is established by at least two Scriptures.
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Actually, that is the form of the visible God. God made man in His (God's) image. Humans look like God.
My understanding is that God is making man in His image. I do not believe this is talking about a "physical" image.
1Cor 15:49-50 - "And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. And this I say, brethren —that, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Col 3:9-10,12 - "having stript off the old man, together with his practices, And having put on the new—who is being moulded afresh unto personal knowledge, after the image of Him that hath created him,— Put on, therefore, as men chosen of God, holy and beloved, tender affections of compassion, graciousness, lowliness of mind, meekness, long-suffering"
Rom 1:23 - " And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man..."
The Scriptures speak of spiritual bodies too. As Paul said, there is a physical body and then there is a spiritual body.
Jesus is called the visible image of God. Therefore He has a form and can be seen in His Spiritual body and can appear in a physical body, as He did multiple times in both the Old and New Testaments. By two or three witnesses let every word be established.
Of course, His Father is the invisible God, Who cannot be seen or heard, Who is beyond our senses. The Father, the invisible God can only be revealed by the visible God, Jesus, which multiple Scriptures attest.
No one can provide two Scriptures that reveal the Father has an image or can be heard by us. Jesus Himself said so.
If we believe the Scriptures, understanding of these matters comes easy. But most reject the Scriptures, and follow the opinions of some Rabbi or other man. God alone reveals Himself through His Scriptures and His Spirit within us.
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Indiana Bob's view point, a few random thoughts.
We don't have an illustration of what God is or what God looks like to prove anything. All that has been revealed could very well be visions in the heads of those who "saw" something or a manifestation of a man made for the express visitation.
We may for the present assume that God invented the form of a human for the purpose of mobility and the sharing of communication between beings in a gaseous atmosphere.
God's spirit can manifest anything God wants to reveal including clouds, fiery pillars, angels in chariots etc. Most of these things could be brought into existence for a temporary use and simply disappear once again. The spirit in man that gives life, returns to God who gave it at the death of the person.
God may use anthropomorphism as a means of communication without being in any way deceptive. God is sovereign and may withhold full information for God's own purpose. AND because we are not ready to know of it...
We know that Jesus was a physical man and we are told that Jesus will appear on the earth once more in that form; so humans can see him (?). That in and of itself does not prove that Jesus is confined to that form. OR that the form of a man is the natural state of an immortal being after the change to immortality.
That God can illustrate God or manifest God in a form to which humans can relate, does not prove that the form we see or the form we imagine from a word picture are the actual basic or underlying fact.
God did not need God's self as a model to copy when God made Adam or when God made the second Adam, the Lord Jesus. It is quite likely that God exist in a manner that we have NOT imagined and that has not been revealed to any but the son of God the man, the Lord Jesus when Jesus was changed to immortality and ascended.
I think it is quite likely that God is withholding many secrets from us and that we will spend at least the beginning of eternity being regularly thrilled and impressed with our Father's power and inventiveness.
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Greetings!
In my opinion i think we will have an image in a form of a spiritual man in the resurrection and immortality.
But, Jesus said that we will be like an angel in the resurrection;
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.Mat 22:30
But the angel is made of flaming fire;
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Psa 104:4
and we will be having like image of the heavenly, like angels;
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.1Co 15:49
But according to Paul, we will be like Jesus;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2
and when John saw Jesus, He was like the Son of man;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; Rev 1:1314
as when God has an image and created the man according to His own image, i think it is the most wonderful, beautiful and perfect form that God had in mind.
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The key here is we do not yet know what this image is:
But according to Paul, we will be like Jesus;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2
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I can see that the Son was brought forth into being to look a certain way from His starting point the beginning of this creation. He is what the Father (it's hard to put a name on what God the Father is, certainly cannot be contained within a being, but Father works because that's what Christ called Him) is using for everything concerning this creation, His image as well.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and FOR Him (the Son).
Every place in all the Scriptures posted that described the Son is as a man, even in the spiritual state He has the shape of a man; arms, feet, waist, face and eyes. Now these Scripture give me enough proof to know what the Son looks like, so that I can believe it.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
The way I read this, it says the begotten "sons of God" though they do "not yet appear" now as such or as they will be then... "but we know" at His second coming we will be "like Him" in His glorious state of being. Then they can look on the face of His glory and live, because they have life and will have been "raised a spiritual body" and all my translations have "body" there.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
v. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
v. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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that quote was frm King James commentary on e sword ...... so we fire the Rabbi
moving on
"Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of every creature KjV and ..... we will be like him".
2nd witness 1 Jn 3v2 = Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear(in Us ), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is...
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I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)
A 'Man' wrestled with Jacob all night and this I believe was a literal event that happened, yet represents a parable about Israel.
now there is some good food,thanks Kat - like a wow moment
Also I think, back to the topic, the key word here is seen" if you have seen me you have seen the Father" - "I and the father are one" seek and ye shall find - knock and the door (to the kingdom) shall be opened,the father is pleased to shew you the kingdom etc it is not the sight of carnal eye but the spiritual sight we are after - as in open my eyes that i may see - is the key...like Ray said keep asking ,begging.God Jesus Is the fire that purifies us,how do we match up loooong way to go
Actually, that is the form of the visible God. God made man in His (God's) image. Humans look like God.
My understanding is that God is making man in His image. I do not believe this is talking about a "physical" image.
1Cor 15:49-50 - "And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. And this I say, brethren —that, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Col 3:9-10,12 - "having stript off the old man, together with his practices, And having put on the new—who is being moulded afresh unto personal knowledge, after the image of Him that hath created him,— Put on, therefore, as men chosen of God, holy and beloved, tender affections of compassion, graciousness, lowliness of mind, meekness, long-suffering"
Rom 1:23 - " And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man..."
You got it Rene.
"Humans look like God?" Are there two witnessing verses that support this statement?
Are we to understand that Jesus was saying that He and His Father are like identical twins? "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" I don't think Jesus is referring to His physical appearance. I think Jesus is referring to the image He was putting forth as He obeyed His Father and lived a godly life. Throngs of people SAW Jesus. Did they see the Father in Jesus? I don't think so. That's why "Jesus replied, HAVE I BEEN WITH YOU FOR SO LONG, AND YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ME, Phillip"? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
The scribes and Pharisees didn't SEE or RECOGNIZE the Father in Jesus. John 5.19: They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
Remember the saying "Like father like son"? In the Lord's case it is "Like Son like Father", since we haven't seen the Father. It is by SEEING/KNOWING the Son that we come to know what His (our) Father is like.
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Hear, hear Indianabob!
God could have given us another appearance, say like any science fiction alien looks like. And Jesus would have come into this world having that alien appearance too. That appearance is irrelevant. What is relevant is our character, our spiritual makeup.
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1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; WHAT WE WILL BE has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, WE WILL BE LIKE HIM, for we will see him as he is.
Consider "WHAT WE WILL BE" as opposed to "WHAT WE WILL LOOK LIKE". It's not about what we will LOOK LIKE; it's about what we WILL BE.
WHAT WE WILL BE has not yet been revealed. What we DO KNOW is this: when he is revealed, WE WILL BE LIKE HIM.
And what is Jesus like? Jesus is like His Father! And what is His Father like? The Lord God will have accomplished in the overcomers what He purposed in Himself when He said "Let us be making MAN in OUR image". The rest will follow eventually.
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The key here is we do not yet know what this image is:
But according to Paul, we will be like Jesus;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2
Greetings Dennis,
Yes it's true that we do not yet know what this image is.
The Lord loves us so much that it does not leave us clueless regarding the things that shall come. The Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine. Sometimes we have to go deeper just like our brother Ray had done.
As for the others are saying and like Kat that we will have a "body" and "image";
and the Scripture is giving us hints..............
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Mat 17:1-9
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Yes theo, I agree with what you are saying, it is ultimately all about the spiritual. But I know people that believe that when brought into the kingdom and made one with God it means to sort of dissolve into this oneness and become a part of it and to lose ones identity altogether. I totally disagree with that idea.
I believe that to recognize that Christ has an 'image' that identifies Him and that we all will continue to have one too, is an important thing to understand. Of course that is not more important than the spiritual aspect of it, but I think it is something that is significant.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes theo, I agree with what you are saying, it is ultimately all about the spiritual. But I know people that believe that when brought into the kingdom and made one with God it means to sort of dissolve into this oneness and become a part of it and to lose ones identity altogether. I totally disagree with that idea.
I believe that to recognize that Christ has an 'image' that identifies Him and that we all will continue to have one too, is an important thing to understand. Of course that is not more important than the spiritual aspect of it, but I think it is something that is significant.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I see. Them people are wrong. If we speak of having a body, it follows logically that it will have an image. Jesus said his Father was greater than him. Also, 1 Cor. 15:28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be EVERYTHING IN EVERYONE.
It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.
Jesus is now a Placer, a subjector. When the culmination comes, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, he will cease to be a subjector.
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It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.
Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
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Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
Ian,
Here is an email reply from Ray which was included at the end of the paper "Is God a Closed Trinity or an Open Family."
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Ray Replies
Dear Brett:
I actually answer this in my paper on the trinity. Yet I get asked it continually. The reason is, I believe, that most are not willing to accept the answer I give FROM THE SCRIPTURES.
I am asked: "Is Jesus GOD or isn't He GOD?"
When I answer: "Yes, Jesus IS GOD," they are not satisfied with that answer they want to know: "Well then, as there is only ONE GOD, and if Jesus IS GOD, then Jesus must be THAT ONE GOD INCLUDING THE FATHER, and so by deduction, JESUS IS THE FATHER.
I'm not saying you, Bret, but there is no end to the times I get this posed to me. And yes, there are those religions that firmly believe that JESUS CHRIS IS GOD THE FATHER.
When the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because He said He was "The SON of God," Jesus reminded them that their own scriptures state that, "YE ARE GODS."
"I have said, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH" (Psalm 82:6).
"For WE [Believers] ARE members of His [Jesus] body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they TWO shall be ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH" (Eph. 5:31-32).
"That they ALL may be ONE [Who?--ALL. How many?--ONE] as you Father are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be ONE in US... And the glory which You gave to Me I have given them, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (John 17:21-22).
This IS the Scripture that Jesus quoted. They didn't accept what Jesus said, and people will not accept what I say.
I'll try once more:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH" (Gen. 2:24).
How many people?--TWO. How many flesh?--ONE.
There the Scriptural answer!
"...that they may be ONE, even as WE [Jesus AND His Father] ARE O-N- E"!!!
HOW many Persons? Jesus & Father--TWO. HOW many GODS?--O-N-E G-O-D!!!
As a "husband and wife" ARE ONE, and "Jesus and His Church," ARE ONE, so also "Jesus and His Father," ARE ONE.
I don't what more I can say or how many times I can say it. I hope this helps.
God be with you,
Ray
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It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.
Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
I, for one, explain it as "The whole is the sum of its parts."
The phrase "I and the Father are one" is great support for those who believe that Jesus is the Father. However, Jesus didn't say "I and the Father are ONE AND THE SAME". This latter phrase has a different meaning, don't you think?
"I and the Father" involves two subjects in the sentence. Jesus could have plainly said "I AM THE FATHER" but didn't. "I and the Father" leaves Jesus' individuality and that of His Father separate. This is my lowly take on this sacred topic. May God forgive me if I'm wrong. Or better yet, may God give me revelation.
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There is only One God.
As Ray mentioned before me, if God the Father is a separate entity, with a separate personality, with a separate existence; and if Jesus is a separate entity, with a separate personality, and a separate existence; then you have two Gods.
But the Scriptures teach over and over again that there is One God.
If you believe in two Gods, then you are a pagan with heathen, false beliefs. It doesn't matter if the names of your gods are Father and Jesus, or Zeus and Apollo, or Wodin and Thor; you are deceived and do not believe in the One, True God.
The same if you believe in a trinity of three gods--father, son, and holy spirit---or all the other multiple gods of mankind---you are an ignorant pagan idol worshiper.
How do you pray to your false, multiple gods? Fifteen minutes to the Father, then fifteen minutes to the Son, so that they don't feel slighted?
I have studied this subject for several years. I have well over a hundred Scriptures to show there is only One God. But they despise the Word of God. They hate those who bring the Word of God. Jesus told us not to give something of value to those who do not or can not appreciate it.
If any are interested in Truth, then read the attached from Ray. Also read the end of Ray's article on his creed. Only Jesus is our teacher, and only He can open up ones understanding.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html
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So… God the Father is the only GOD… but then you have His created Son, the Lord Jesus Christ… So there are, in fact, two separate entities… Just as a husband and wife are ONE, but yet they are two separate entities. Just as Christ and His Church are ONE, but they are two separate entities. Am I correct?
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John, I don't think anybody here is saying that as the Father and Son have distinctions from one another would means then they are 2 Gods, that's your reasoning. They are one in mind and Spirit, just as the elect will also enter into this oneness with the Father and Son. We will become united by His Holy Spirit and have the same mind, not become the Father.
John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
The Father and Son have differences, Jesus Christ had a starting point when He came forth from the Father (John 8:42; 13:3; 16:27, 30). It is impossible for me to think of this eternal entity (the Father) as a being having a shape or form of some sort, as the Son does. There are many Scripture that also say the Son was begotten of the Father (John 1:14,18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9), that beginning means He did not experience all that the Father knows before He came to be. Jesus clearly made the distinction between Himself and the Father, as the Son "was with" God the Father.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
He was in the Father "bosom" or embrace, like a father/mother lovingly holds their child. If Jesus is the Father how can He declare that His Father is greater than He is?
John 14:28 Ye heard that, I, said unto you—I go my way, and I come unto you,—Had ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, that I am going unto the Father, for, the Father, is, greater than I.
Now this relationship of Father and Son is not exactly like the physical that we have, as I do not believe that they are actually separate and acting independently. No, I think the Son is more like an extension of the Father, so He receives His direction directly and internally from the Father. Christ said He spoke what He 'heard' from the Father, but He also said nobody has ever heard His voice... that's because He has a natural internally connection (called the Holy Spirit), and perfect understanding with the Father.
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."
I think the Son is a connected part of the Father in that He is what the Father brought forth of Himself to do the work of this creation. It says He "is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens," His "right hand"... a parable or another way to explain their relationship. It could be that the Son is an extension of the Father sort of like our arm is an extension of us, everything about Him is totally controlled by the Father, but He is not everything that the Father is, there is much more to the Father. At least this is a way of looking at it that helps me understand what it could be like, and most importantly it does match with all the Scripture.
Heb 8:1 Now this is the sum of what is being said: Such a Chief Priest have we, Who is seated at the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
v. 2 a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle. which the Lord pitches, and not a man." (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi everyone,
This seems to be a never ending topic for discussion here and many other places.
Just believe the scriptures.
1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Is Jesus God?
Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
The debate goes on and will go on and on.
However we have yet to learn how we are part of being gods either now or definitely in the future
I think Ray got it pretty much in his reply recently posted here by Rene.
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It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.
Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
"I and the Father" involves two subjects in the sentence. Jesus could have plainly said "I AM THE FATHER" but didn't. "I and the Father" leaves Jesus' individuality and that of His Father separate. This is my lowly take on this sacred topic. May God forgive me if I'm wrong. Or better yet, may God give me revelation.
Ok I beliieve we are not GODs yet but (gods)PS 86v2:I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
We are being made into GOD's likeness, shape, form, if you like.When Jesus was born he was a god as well hhowever, the path to becoming like unto GOD (one with GOD), is the road Jesus walked - I believe it is when you have to,are led to, forsake all.
You then begin to walk with GOD and be his friend this is also kinda still in the beginning IE In THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED... this is part of our beginning learning (being taught ) to depend on God not our own worldly ways.(understanding) which I believe ties in with miracle no 1 being turned into wine...
actually we all, Jew and Gentile come out of the father and we will all return to the father and be ONE that is my understanding and I believe I have Gods spirit residing in me...
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actually we all, Jew and Gentile come out of the father and we will all return to the father and be ONE that is my understanding and I believe I have Gods spirit residing in me...
Hi Ian, actually I think Christ was unique in how He was brought forth from the Father "the only begotten Son" (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9), as His spiritual Son first, then entering flesh to fully share our own existence before He suffer and died.
Some people believe that mankind were spirit beings that came into the flesh, but we all are first of the flesh and only when we are begotten with the Spirit do we have life within us.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47 The first man came from the dust of the earth; the second man came from heaven.
But I do think I see what you mean we came out of the Father, in that He certainly gave us the physical breath of life.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
However we have yet to learn how we are part of being gods either now or definitely in the future
Only when the Holy Spirit is indwelling do we have the earnest of spiritual life and any part of God, sons of God.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
2Co 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
2Co 5:4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
v. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.
And to the point of the "future," taking the analogy of Christ being the right hand of God, then could the elect be further extensions like the fingers of the hand? It seems to fit thinking of it as all being through Christ, but still from the ultimate source of power, the Father.
mercy. peace and love
Kat
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Greetings!
I do believe that it is only Jesus that came out of the Father Literally;
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Jhn 1:14
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Jhn 1:18
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.Jhn 8:42
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. Jhn 16:28
and after Jesus came out of the Father, Jesus created all things;
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Jhn 1:3
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Col 1:16
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HI ,
One can go real deep on this subject...start in Gen 1v1 God created both the heaven's ( spirit ) and the earth [ MAN ], MAN was without form,empty and dark.or naked ,wretched and blind...
And Gods spirit was hovering [waiting]over us . at just the right time ....WE get separated ie light and dark [sheep an goats,good fish bad fish etc...GOD saw that the LIGHT was good - carry on reading - then comes a joining, a union [ADAM/EVE] "YOU AND CHRIST" you read on, the word will be opened up... as you seek his FACE or AS YOU GROW GOD will reveal the "Son" in you and then you will see God [if you have seen me,you have seen the father] ...
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I'll just wait for Heavenly Father to explain things to me! :) He can explain it better.
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this has been a good discussion ,I learned much
I leave it with this scripture ...
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
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this has been a good discussion ,I learned much
I leave it with this scripture ...
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Greetings Ian,
i am glad that me too is learning.........
also, i leave it with this scripture....... and God said,
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. Act 26:15
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Greetings Santgen did u notice the next verse ?
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the (ee) which I will appear unto thee;.............. Brackets "my own"..
;)
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Greetings Santgen did u notice the next verse ?
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the (ee) which I will appear unto thee;.............. Brackets "my own"..
;)
Greetings Ian,
this is the easiest way i can comprehend the scripture by NLT;
Now get to your feet! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. You are to tell the world what you have seen and what I will show you in the future. NLT
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There is only One God.
As Ray mentioned before me, if God the Father is a separate entity, with a separate personality, with a separate existence; and if Jesus is a separate entity, with a separate personality, and a separate existence; then you have two Gods.
But the Scriptures teach over and over again that there is One God.
If you believe in two Gods, then you are a pagan with heathen, false beliefs. It doesn't matter if the names of your gods are Father and Jesus, or Zeus and Apollo, or Wodin and Thor; you are deceived and do not believe in the One, True God.
The same if you believe in a trinity of three gods--father, son, and holy spirit---or all the other multiple gods of mankind---you are an ignorant pagan idol worshiper.
How do you pray to your false, multiple gods? Fifteen minutes to the Father, then fifteen minutes to the Son, so that they don't feel slighted?
I have studied this subject for several years. I have well over a hundred Scriptures to show there is only One God. But they despise the Word of God. They hate those who bring the Word of God. Jesus told us not to give something of value to those who do not or can not appreciate it.
If any are interested in Truth, then read the attached from Ray. Also read the end of Ray's article on his creed. Only Jesus is our teacher, and only He can open up ones understanding.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html
Still leaves us with more questions than answers... I've read that email a hundred times now. Didn't Dennis or Craig say that they often discussed this with Ray shortly before his death and that he wasn't able to make sense of it, even up until the end he didn't quite have it all there. I remember one of them mentioning that.
"To us there is one God: The Father...AND Jesus" - I understand very well the difference between a colon and a comma.... and yet it seems to become even more enigmatic when the colon is added though I do agree, it lines up much better with what Christ said. The one is the Father AND Son.
Alex
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Still leaves us with more questions than answers... I've read that email a hundred times now. Didn't Dennis or Craig say that they often discussed this with Ray shortly before his death and that he wasn't able to make sense of it, even up until the end he didn't quite have it all there. I remember one of them mentioning that.
"To us there is one God: The Father...AND Jesus" - I understand very well the difference between a colon and a comma.... and yet it seems to become even more enigmatic when the colon is added though I do agree, it lines up much better with what Christ said. The one is the Father AND Son.
Alex
I love meditating and searching deeper into this subject. Ray may not have fully understood this relationship between the Father and Jesus, but I believe Paul, an Apostle, certainly did.
Eph 1:2-3 - "Favour unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed, be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing, in the heavenlies, in Christ.
Eph 4:3-6 - "Giving diligence to keep—the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting-bond of peace, One body, and one spirit, even as ye were also called in one hope of your calling, One Lord, one faith, one immersion, One God and Father of all—who is over all, and through all, and in all.
1Tim 1:1-2 - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus—by injunction of God our Saviour and Christ Jesus our hope. ... favour, mercy, peace, from God our Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Tim 2:5 - "For there is one God, one mediator also, between God and men,—a man—Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:18 - "Because, through Him, we have our introduction—we both—in one Spirit, unto the Father.
René
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Ray understood the truth that God is One. Just read the end of his creed, which I have attached below. But as Ray said somewhere before, "There is a difference in knowing a truth and being able to explain a truth." Ray did not have the time or energy at the end to fully explain this truth.
I talked to Ray on the phone about this. I said I was stunned at where he was going with this enigma of God matter, and I thought most members on the Forum wouldn't get it. Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit leads. I respected his wishes and did not discuss this matter further with him.
But at the end of Ray's creed, where he says Jesus is God's autobiography, I immediately understood what Ray was saying.
It doesn't take great intelligence to understand, just knowledge of what the English word "autobiography" means.
When someone writes an autobiography, are they writing about someone else? Or. Are they writing about themselves? Easy peasy.
http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm
Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul presents one of the master Scriptures, which clearly explains the nature of God. But who believes it? Most have to explain it away.
However, in the Scripture just below, in 1 Cor. 8:7, Paul states, However not all men have this knowledge... Paul was speaking to the Church. Few had this knowledge 2,000 years ago, and few of the chosen ones have this knowledge today. Which is by the will of God. I believe it will be the age to come when Jesus explains the nature of God to His Elect. But I thank God (through Ray) that He gave me a foretaste of this understanding. I find it very comforting.
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Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
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Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
No problemo Dennis. I'm a big fat oyster with a pearl inside. ;D ;D ;D
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Ray understood the truth that God is One. Just read the end of his creed, which I have attached below. But as Ray said somewhere before, "There is a difference in knowing a truth and being able to explain a truth." Ray did not have the time or energy at the end to fully explain this truth.
I talked to Ray on the phone about this. I said I was stunned at where he was going with this enigma of God matter, and I thought most members on the Forum wouldn't get it. Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit leads. I respected his wishes and did not discuss this matter further with him.
But at the end of Ray's creed, where he says Jesus is God's autobiography, I immediately understood what Ray was saying.
It doesn't take great intelligence to understand, just knowledge of what the English word "autobiography" means.
When someone writes an autobiography, are they writing about someone else? Or. Are they writing about themselves? Easy peasy.
http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm
Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul presents one of the master Scriptures, which clearly explains the nature of God. But who believes it? Most have to explain it away.
However, in the Scripture just below, in 1 Cor. 8:7, Paul states, However not all men have this knowledge... Paul was speaking to the Church. Few had this knowledge 2,000 years ago, and few of the chosen ones have this knowledge today. Which is by the will of God. I believe it will be the age to come when Jesus explains the nature of God to His Elect. But I thank God (through Ray) that He gave me a foretaste of this understanding. I find it very comforting.
Bravo John. Bravo - great post!
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Wow… just wow… The arrogance and the lack of humility on display here in some of these posts, before the Almighty, is astonishing, almost to the point of being nauseating (you know who you are). Perhaps a good reading of 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 (the WHOLE chapter) would help, not to mention praying to God to see that we are nothing but the dust of the Earth.
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Hi AwesomeSavior,
Appreciate your comment but would like to add some "moderation" of my own.
Everyone here is in learning mode and God knows how much understanding HE has graced us with, so God is not offended at our limitations and emotional emphasis or lack of humility in certain comments. God would much rather we "shake our fists" in His sovereign face than to fight among ourselves. God can take it in stride without getting mad. Plus it gives us practice repenting on our knees. ;D
God is a loving Father and knows our frame and when we may comment in ignorance or from ego or even arrogance God just chuckles and considers the source. After all God put us here to stumble and skin our knees so to speak and to learn tolerance and to learn it the "hard way". The main thing God wants us to learn is to play well together and try to see things through the eyes of our brethren and to be always ready to forgive an offense.
Hebrews 2:6-8 asks what is man that thou are mindful of him/them.
It is speaking of the Lord Jesus and of course of Jesus' brethren
And yes we are nothing but dust physically, but what potential we have...
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The main point I wish to make is that we should be able to state our views curtly without offending a brother too much. It's sort of like having ourselves corrected by a spouse or one of our own kids who love us and yet understand little of the world.
I do sincerely appreciate your views as well.
Kindly offered, Indiana Bob
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Greetings everyone!
Trivia!
Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!??????what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!! ::) :-\ :( ;)
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Yeah John - you know who you are! ;D
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Indiana Bob:
You are an excellent role model for all of us. Thank you for your insightfulness. Hebrews 13:17 comes to mind: "Believe them that are highly esteemed, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
God Bless.
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Jesus is God's autobiography, I immediately understood what Ray was saying.
It doesn't take great intelligence to understand, just knowledge of what the English word "autobiography" means.
Chapter and verse please ..
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exists."
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Interesting - Col 1:15
The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
•Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)
•Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14) and is also the first born son of Mary. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
AND WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM
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Greetings everyone!
Trivia!
Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!??????what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!! ::) :-\ :( ;)
I'm thinking you are referring to this Scripture.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I understand your comment, but I don't see how this puts any limits on the Father. I consider it this way, that Jesus Christ was brought forth to be the Creator of THIS creation, that is the "all things" the Scripture is speaking of. The Son was brought to be as that part of the Father (God) for the purpose of this creation, it is "for Him." The Father chose to do it this way, but that was His determination, not a limitation of how He had to do it and certainly does not limit Him in any other way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. We are all studying deeply into the Scripture in search of the truth, it is a blessing to be able to study here together with like minded people until we all come into the unity of faith in God.
Eph 4:13 until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.
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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I think God spoke and that created Jesus Christ the Word as we know him.
When Jesus was ministering he always spoke the Word and that brought the results, the same as in the beginning at creation, "Let there be..."
Joel
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Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info. ;)
On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?
I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!
Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit? ::) But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?
I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know? ;)
I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!
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Interesting - Col 1:15
The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
•Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)
•Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14) and is also the first born son of Mary. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
AND WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM
And the inescapable conclusion is: WE SHALL BE LIKE GOD HIMSELF!
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Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info. ;)
On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?
I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!
Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit? ::) But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?
I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know? ;)
I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!
You do not have a clue what you're talking about, not a clue.
And no, you do not know what an autobiography is. The explanation you gave is of a biography. You need to educate yourself as to what an autobiography is. In Ray's Creed, he was contrasting a biography with an autobiography. Two different words, with different meanings.
As to Scriptures, I am old fashioned. I still read and use books. I print Scriptures out on paper and organize them by subject matter following the scripture that says, "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
Another thing you do not understand is that all understanding of scriptural truth comes from God and God alone. His Words are Spirit, and only the Spirit of God gives understanding. No human can ever understand any scripture solely by human understanding.
Jesus also tells us not to give something of value to someone who cannot appreciate or understand the value of a truth.
Finally, the Forum does have a no teaching rule, which limits how much we can discuss certain matters.
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oh dear God, here it goes again. ::)
cj
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Greetings everyone!
Trivia!
Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!??????what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!! ::) :-\ :( ;)
I'm thinking you are referring to this Scripture.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I understand your comment, but I don't see how this puts any limits on the Father. I consider it this way, that Jesus Christ was brought forth to be the Creator of THIS creation, that is the "all things" the Scripture is speaking of. The Son was brought to be as that part of the Father (God) for the purpose of this creation, it is "for Him." The Father chose to do it this way, but that was His determination, not a limitation of how He had to do it and certainly does not limit Him in any other way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. We are all studying deeply into the Scripture in search of the truth, it is a blessing to be able to study here together with like minded people until we all come into the unity of faith in God.
Eph 4:13 until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.
Hello Kat,
Greetings!
i will make myself clear, i am not and never thinking that i put any limits on the Father.
(thanks Kat for the response that you gave me the opportunity to explain more)
As you all know that most of the people go directly to God without Jesus.
They are praying directly and asking God without Jesus.
They know God but they don't know Jesus! ??? ???
They say that never the Father had the son for he is not human, blah, blah, blah and some other things!
What am i saying is that;
In this present world, we would only know Jesus and the only God Jesus, until God the Father will be all in all! And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.1Co 15:28
God the Father can do everything without the help of anything but he loves the Son and it is only through the Son, It is always through Jesus, and even the Father's will!
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:35
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John from Kentucky / Kat / All -
I believe Ray taught that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ)".
I believe Ray also taught that "some religions teach that Jesus is The Father".
Is Ray therefore not stating that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son The Lord Jesus Christ)" and also "Jesus is not The Father but the express image of His Father", as Jesus is the only one to come out of The Father, and all else come from The Father through the Son.
Is it not TRUE that we can only know The Father through the Son.
Regards, George.
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Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: this KJ version clearly suggests 2 or more persons
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, ( we are separate, here ...that is In the beginning, before/whilst Christ is being formed in us, we are "them" not a part of "Our" yet) we will contribute/play a roll in the transforming of many though - just as Christ and the apostles
and
creating is El ohim man in his image (Rays translation) "his" image understood as One - "our" image, understood as more than one
The "–im" ending denotes a plural masculine noun. Most of the time, however, when the noun is used for the true God it has singular masculine verbs. This is contrary to rules of Hebrew grammar. ---- (Hebrew streams)
One family, relate that to yourself you have a father and Mother (bride and groom) whether they were legally married or not, you were born from a joining together by your Father and Mother who are ONE in The sight of God ..
Ephesians 5v30 because we are members of His body.31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."I think this is the multiplication process" 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. (Bride and Groom ) we are the church --
If Paul calls this is a great mystery, hey lets call it that, and get on with it - for he says
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me
To Cheekie (George),quote "Is it not TRUE that we can only know The Father through the Son."
Brother it is true you can only know the Father by emulating the Son - no short cut into the sheep pen/fold .....Jn 14 v 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info. ;)
On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?
I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!
Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit? ::) But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?
I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know? ;)
I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!
You do not have a clue what you're talking about, not a clue.
And no, you do not know what an autobiography is. The explanation you gave is of a biography. You need to educate yourself as to what an autobiography is. In Ray's Creed, he was contrasting a biography with an autobiography. Two different words, with different meanings.
As to Scriptures, I am old fashioned. I still read and use books. I print Scriptures out on paper and organize them by subject matter following the scripture that says, "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
Another thing you do not understand is that all understanding of scriptural truth comes from God and God alone. His Words are Spirit, and only the Spirit of God gives understanding. No human can ever understand any scripture solely by human understanding.
Jesus also tells us not to give something of value to someone who cannot appreciate or understand the value of a truth.
Finally, the Forum does have a no teaching rule, which limits how much we can discuss certain matters.
My bad John!!! The following day after I posted my comment it dawned on me that I missed something! So, no hard feelings about your suggestion for me to educate myself; though I do educate myself! I should show you the apps I have on my phone! They're awesome! :)
Brother, I work nights, from 6 pm to sometimes 6 am, so my mind is very tired at that time. I should refrain from posting anything at that hour, since I'm exhausted. I read and re-read my post to make sure I had everything right. I honestly didn't see what you saw with fresh eyes. So, don't run away with the idea that I lack enough education to tell the difference between biography and autobiography, or that I'm plainly stupid.
So, if you will give me the chance, I will give it a second try:
In my own words, autobiography is the story of someone's life as written by that someone. So, if you write an autobiography, it will be your life story in your own words. Close enough? I hope so. Like I said, in my own words, since I didn't consult an online dictionary.
Nothing wrong with your approach to bible study. What you do on paper can also be done using a computer or smart phone. Whatever works best for the person I say.
As regards understanding any scriptural truth, I do believe wholeheartedly it comes from God. But I also believe God uses means to convey that understanding. You could be a means to someone understanding a scriptural truth, just as bible-truths has been serving as a means for many people to arrive at or receive said understanding. Even nature has been declaring the glory of God.
You're right about your pearls. If I can't value them, I shouldn't want them.
Just as this forum has a No Teaching rule, which I'm not suggesting you break, shouldn't there be a way to hint that a topic is a Pearl, only to be discussed by those who understand it? In fact, you could create a private thread to which an unenlightened person like myself wouldn't have access. It's not fair that you be discussing a topic and pique our interest only to show us the Pearls card and leave us hanging.
You do well in not teaching, since I imagine that might not be your calling. I suppose I should stick to reading the things Ray taught in his papers, what other authors have written and take my LOA from this forum. It seems to be the path of least resistance.
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John from Kentucky / Kat / All -
I believe Ray taught that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ)".
I believe Ray also taught that "some religions teach that Jesus is The Father".
Is Ray therefore not stating that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son The Lord Jesus Christ)" and also "Jesus is not The Father but the express image of His Father", as Jesus is the only one to come out of The Father, and all else come from The Father through the Son.
Is it not TRUE that we can only know The Father through the Son.
Regards, George.
:)
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Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: this KJ version clearly suggests 2 or more persons
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, ( we are separate, here ...that is In the beginning, before/whilst Christ is being formed in us, we are "them" not a part of "Our" yet) we will contribute/play a roll in the transforming of many though - just as Christ and the apostles
and
creating is El ohim man in his image (Rays translation) "his" image understood as One - "our" image, understood as more than one
The "–im" ending denotes a plural masculine noun. Most of the time, however, when the noun is used for the true God it has singular masculine verbs. This is contrary to rules of Hebrew grammar. ---- (Hebrew streams)
Thinking about this Scripture that speaks of God as "Us" and "Our," it most certainly denotes a plurality. I do not believe it is as in 2 individuals though, because there is ONE God... but using that wording clearly shows they are not one and the same.
There is some kind of distinction between The Son and the Father, so that though 'one' God, it is multiple. I do not believe that distinction can be described in human terms, it is just a difference than what we have here, but without question there is a difference, because one died and the other did not.
It seems this "mystery" is in that there is no real physical way for us to describe what God is... but nonetheless I do think we can have a degree of comprehension from the Holy Spirit. I guess it's like Paul said after an experience that showed him wondrous things, but there was no way for him to explain it.
2Co 12:4 that he (Paul) was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info. ;)
On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?
I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!
Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit? ::) But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?
I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know? ;)
I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!
You do not have a clue what you're talking about, not a clue.
And no, you do not know what an autobiography is. The explanation you gave is of a biography. You need to educate yourself as to what an autobiography is. In Ray's Creed, he was contrasting a biography with an autobiography. Two different words, with different meanings.
As to Scriptures, I am old fashioned. I still read and use books. I print Scriptures out on paper and organize them by subject matter following the scripture that says, "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
Another thing you do not understand is that all understanding of scriptural truth comes from God and God alone. His Words are Spirit, and only the Spirit of God gives understanding. No human can ever understand any scripture solely by human understanding.
Jesus also tells us not to give something of value to someone who cannot appreciate or understand the value of a truth.
Finally, the Forum does have a no teaching rule, which limits how much we can discuss certain matters.
My bad John!!! The following day after I posted my comment it dawned on me that I missed something! So, no hard feelings about your suggestion for me to educate myself; though I do educate myself! I should show you the apps I have on my phone! They're awesome! :)
Brother, I work nights, from 6 pm to sometimes 6 am, so my mind is very tired at that time. I should refrain from posting anything at that hour, since I'm exhausted. I read and re-read my post to make sure I had everything right. I honestly didn't see what you saw with fresh eyes. So, don't run away with the idea that I lack enough education to tell the difference between biography and autobiography, or that I'm plainly stupid.
So, if you will give me the chance, I will give it a second try:
In my own words, autobiography is the story of someone's life as written by that someone. So, if you write an autobiography, it will be your life story in your own words. Close enough? I hope so. Like I said, in my own words, since I didn't consult an online dictionary.
Nothing wrong with your approach to bible study. What you do on paper can also be done using a computer or smart phone. Whatever works best for the person I say.
As regards understanding any scriptural truth, I do believe wholeheartedly it comes from God. But I also believe God uses means to convey that understanding. You could be a means to someone understanding a scriptural truth, just as bible-truths has been serving as a means for many people to arrive at or receive said understanding. Even nature has been declaring the glory of God.
You're right about your pearls. If I can't value them, I shouldn't want them.
Just as this forum has a No Teaching rule, which I'm not suggesting you break, shouldn't there be a way to hint that a topic is a Pearl, only to be discussed by those who understand it? In fact, you could create a private thread to which an unenlightened person like myself wouldn't have access. It's not fair that you be discussing a topic and pique our interest only to show us the Pearls card and leave us hanging.
You do well in not teaching, since I imagine that might not be your calling. I suppose I should stick to reading the things Ray taught in his papers, what other authors have written and take my LOA from this forum. It seems to be the path of least resistance.
We cool brother, we cool.
I'm not a teacher. I'm an accountant. I'm over the hill, hoping not to be buried under it. ;D
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Yes, we cool John. 8)