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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Oatmeal on January 16, 2013, 08:06:45 PM
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In the Lake of Fire series (refer to parts 13 & 14) Ray ties the revealing of the man of lawlessness to the wild beast that comes out of the sea and with the is, was, and will be of Revelation.
Ray says that the revealing of the man of sin to each individual of the elect is in his particular time (is, was, and will be), but that the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future event.
Why does Ray not also tie in the coming of Jesus with the is, was, and will be of Revelation? Is the coming of Jesus mentioned in Revelation? If it is, why would that not also be a is, was, and will be?
Why were believers in the early church clearly commanded to wait for the coming of Jesus, and why did Jesus Himself command each and every believer to watch?
To be helpful, I have included Scriptures in regard to that waiting. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, at least in the English in a number of versions, has an interesting order of events, and that is the reason that for that Scripture I have given both the KJV and the CLV versions. Are others aware of more Scripture in this regard?
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (KJV)
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Hebrews 10:36-37 (KJV)
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (KJV)
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (CLV)
so that you are not deficient in any grace, awaiting the unveiling of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will be confirming you also until the consummation, unimpeachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye [ye is singular] know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Thank you for your assistance.
Oatmeal.
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http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#preterist
Try this one. It may make the question: "Why does Ray not also tie in the coming of Jesus with the is, was, and will be of Revelation? Is the coming of Jesus mentioned in Revelation? If it is, why would that not also be a is, was, and will be?" moot.
Hopefully that will be at least a start.
Can you point to where Ray said that "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future (only?) event?
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Can you point to where Ray said that "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future (only?) event?
The following quote from Ray refers to Jesus coming to us all collectively, the all being the manifest sons of God, by which I assume Ray is referring to the elect (the chosen). The quote does not say "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one" but I think that the Scripture is clear that that is when the lawless one is destroyed (at the coming of the Lord Jesus - 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (CLV) - then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence),)
And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he
[‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU
and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR
ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL,
COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."
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I guess I'm not really understanding your questions, then. That part you quoted DOES speak to the "Is, Was, and Will be" of the 'revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition'. I still don't see a place where Ray teaches that "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future event."
It's certainly 'future' for any who have not yet had this revelation, and this revelation is one that 'must take place'.
If that doesn't help, then I'm stumped as to the question.
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This is amazing. I have been looking for that email everywhere for other reasons than what Oatmeal is looking for, John, and here it is!
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Short and to the point. Excellent John :)
Rhys
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Thank you JfK that also helped me too. Not exactly the same question as above but one about Satan I had the other day. Thank you Oatmeal for for original question that helped to answer mine.
Greg
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you guys know who the lawless one is right? :o
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Yes
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YOU
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Me
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It seems that some members of this forum are bored – so let’s get this thread back on track.
Dave in Tenn, thank you for attempting to understand and to answer one of my questions. Please read the following slowly and carefully.
And so too, this wild beast that comes up out of the sea is the beast IS (at the time John
wrote of it), WAS (before it was introduced to John), AND WILL BE (down through the
centuries until our time and beyond until the consummation of this age).
And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he
[‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU
and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR
ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL,
COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."
Yes I agree that Ray says that the revealing of the man of sin is an "Is, Was, and Will be". The quotes above say that, we both agree that Ray says that, and in my first post I said that Ray says that.
In reference to the second quote above:
According to Ray (and to common sense) this revealing is something that happens to us “individually, not collectively” and this is because believers have been alive at different times in different generations and the revealing is at their particular time. The revealing of the man of sin is therefore logically (and also Scripturally), an "Is, Was, and Will be".
According to Ray the revealing happens for each of us in each of our times ("Is, Was, and Will be") UNTIL, the "until" denoting a future event, the future event being Jesus coming “to us all collectively” (not to us individually). If I have understood correctly, "collectively" means: to all of us at the same time, this reinforcing the future aspect.
We know that according to Scripture the destroying of the man of sin can only occur at the coming of Jesus. This coming is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, the KJV refers to "the brightness of his coming", and so this coming is a coming that is, or appears to be, very noticeable to those who see it. This coming according to Ray is an event that happens “to us all collectively” and is a future event. Thus according to Ray the destroying (as opposed to the revealing) of the man of sin must also be a future event, and therefore a "Will be" as well, not an "Is, Was, and Will be".
The link that was posted by John from Kentucky does not negate the above argument.
However those in the early church were taught to wait for Jesus in their lifetimes, and were told that He would come after they (the singular "ye" is used) had done the will of God.
So to me there appears to be a contradiction between the teaching of Ray and the teaching of Scripture. But then perhaps I have not understood the Scripture and/or the teaching of Ray, and that is why I have asked questions.
Why according to Ray is it not possible that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin be an "Is, Was, and Will be"? Why is it not possible for us, those who faithfully undergo tribulation, and who walk the narrow way to the end, unto Life, expect Jesus to come in our lifetimes, INDIVIDUALLY, before we physically die, to destroy the man of sin? Were those in the early church taught to expect that? Were those in the early church taught to expect Jesus to come in their lifetimes? If so, should we be watching and waiting and expecting the same thing? And what will we see when we see Jesus come? Is it a faith thing, or is it an experiential thing? When we find, and the door is opened, and we receive, is this a faith thing? Or is it the seeking that is done by faith, but the finding is experiential? When you find, how would you know that you had found, unless you actually found something or Someone? When the man of sin is revealed, he is actually revealed. To be counted as born again, is it enough to have a testimony of the revealing of the man of sin, but not have a testimony of the coming of Jesus to destroy that man of sin?
Do we dare be happy to wait until we die physically, to see what will happen? If we die (physically), and the man of sin has not been destroyed, then will we see Jesus come to our shame? Is that how He appears to us at a time that we least expect?
Those who are born again (John 3:3): know (ginōskō (know intimately)) the Truth (John 8:31-32) and are known (ginōskō) by Jesus (Matthew 7:23, John 10:27), know (ginōskō) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He sent (John 17:3), have been made free (John 8:31-32), made free indeed (John 8:36), have received a new heart and entered into the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12, Jeremiah 31:31, 33-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 18:31-32), have received the promise (Hebrews 10:36), Jesus has manifested Himself to them (John 14:21), they have seen the Son (John 6:40), have found, have had the door opened, have received (Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9), have been invited from the lowest room (Luke 14:10), sup with Jesus and he with them (Revelation 3:20), have the Son (1 John 5:12), shall not need anyone to teach them (Hebrews 8:11), have overcome (Revelation chapters 2-3), have endured much tribulation to enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22), and have walked the narrow way to Life (Matthew 7:14). (I am not saying that this is a complete list).
Is it possible for these things to be fulfilled before our physical death?
Is it possible to be born again, receive a new heart, and enter into the new covenant, if the man of sin has not been destroyed?
My questions remain:
Why does Ray say that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin (I’m not referring to the revealing of the man of sin) is a future event, and therefore not an "Is, Was, and Will be"?
Why were believers in the early church clearly commanded to wait for the coming of Jesus, and why did Jesus Himself command each and every believer to watch?
Thanks again for your help
Oatmeal
To forum members:
When posting on this thread please keep to relevant subject matter and try to refrain from idle chatter. No apologies needed.
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Hi Oatmeal,
Why according to Ray is it not possible that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin be an "Is, Was, and Will be"? Why is it not possible for us, those who faithfully undergo tribulation, and who walk the narrow way to the end, unto Life, expect Jesus to come in our lifetimes, INDIVIDUALLY, before we physically die, to destroy the man of sin? Were those in the early church taught to expect that? Were those in the early church taught to expect Jesus to come in their lifetimes? If so, should we be watching and waiting and expecting the same thing? And what will we see when we see Jesus come? Is it a faith thing, or is it an experiential thing? When we find, and the door is opened, and we receive, is this a faith thing? Or is it the seeking that is done by faith, but the finding is experiential? When you find, how would you know that you had found, unless you actually found something or Someone? When the man of sin is revealed, he is actually revealed. To be counted as born again, is it enough to have a testimony of the revealing of the man of sin, but not have a testimony of the coming of Jesus to destroy that man of sin?
Saved or born again is not achieved until we are born into the kingdom at the first resurrection, that is yet in the future and that is what we eagerly await for.
In this present life for each believer, in every generation down through the centuries, we are only begotten and sealed with the earnest of His Spirit now.
2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
v. 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
When Jesus returns, which is yet still to happen, then the dead in Christ are raised, changed in the twinkling of an eye, to glorious spirit body and receive the promise. They will become fully spirit, the physical carnal flesh will be left behind or changed and we will be "like Christ" and born into the kingdom.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Here is an email of Ray's on being saved.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#saved ---
[Ray Replies]
"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question! Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question? If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.
Here is what we do read regarding salvation:
"might save" "to save" "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.
And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.
Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.
If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.
This verse says it all:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13).
If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?" See the contradiction?
Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?
Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives? I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.
God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).
God be with you,
Ray
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What I understand from Ray's teachings from the scriptures is that all of us are the man of sin, the son of perdition, the beast. That we are God within the Temple of our heart because we think we have free will, that we decide what is good and what is evil.
To those who are the called and chosen, selected before the foundation of the world, then Jesus comes to us now, in our current lives. Through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, through the Power of God, we are converted and understand we are the beast. We understand that God is sovereign in all things. Jesus then rules in the Temple of our hearts. Jesus has killed the man of sin within us and He rules in the place of the beast. From now on Jesus is our King and sin no longer rules over us.
Jesus has appeared to us now because as He said, "The Kingdom of God is within you."
At His future return to the Earth, Jesus will resurrect the Elect to everlasting spiritual life, and we will be with Him as He saves the rest of all humanity.
So I don't understand Ray to be saying that the man of sin is to be destroyed only in the future. For the Elect, the man of sin must be destroyed now, in our present lifetimes.
I gleaned the above from the scriptures and Ray's LOF articles; concerning the beast and man of sin specifically articles 13 and 14.
That is why i said, YOU
That means all of us, until God called us! We are all the beast, the son of perdition, the man of sin. We are all the 666.
Thanks JFK and to others who have the Spirit of the Lord!
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Ray made two very good points about overcoming, and enduring to the end, from the scriptures.
We can see from the scriptures concerning the life of Paul, and how the Lord worked with him.
Paul had this to say in some of his writings, and his own walk as a Christian;
Philippians 3:10-14
10-That I may know him, and the power of his Resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death.
11-If by any means I might attain unto the Resurrection of the dead.
12-Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13-Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14-I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Paul later said this toward the end of his life , and ministry;
2nd Timothy 4:6-8
6-For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7-I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8-Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Joel
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Good. Because the way the conversation was going it sounded like you were about to talk about a future end time event and an anti-christ/beast character. It is not future tense. It is now. There are no second chances after death. Die to the flesh daily
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
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To say there are no second chances is contradictory to the message Ray was trying to get across over and over again.. If all mankind are saved(I speak as a fool), and Jesus is the Saviour of the world, then what is being missed out on any second chances. Unless of course you're speaking of the sealed 144,000.
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once you are dead it's over. you can't become an elect if you haven't overcome in life. This is basic doctrine. Are you confused? and the 144000 is a symbolic number. not real people.
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Hi thewatchman you are right, but so is Avidfisher,
I think you are both right, from your own perspective.
once you are dead it's over. you can't become an elect if you haven't overcome in life. This is basic doctrine. Are you confused? and the 144000 is a symbolic number. not real people.
Yes these are 'the few' that are chosen to be in the first resurrection, first begotten in this lifetime in this age. But it is only a very few that are being prepared now, to be brought into the kingdom at Jesus Christ's return to reign with Him.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
v. 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
To say there are no second chances is contradictory to the message Ray was trying to get across over and over again.. If all mankind are saved(I speak as a fool), and Jesus is the Saviour of the world, then what is being missed out on any second chances. Unless of course you're speaking of the sealed 144,000.
This is also true for 'the many,' the world, who will not be saved in this lifetime, in this age, no they will died never really 'knowing' Christ. But this is not their only "chance," even though they were not among the chosen few, the next age will be for their correction and purification. The 'many' will be in the resurrection to condemnation, but the few will serve with Christ to help bring all the rest of humanity, the many, to salvation.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Mat 25:31 But, whensoever the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the messengers with Him, then will He sit on His throne of glory;
v. 32 And there will be gathered before him, all the nations, and He will separate them one from another, just as, the shepherd! separates the sheep from the goats,—
v. 33 And He will set, the sheep, indeed, on His right hand, but, the goats, on the left.
v. 34 Then, will the King say to those on His right hand: Come ye, the blessed of My Father! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
v. 41 Then, will he say unto those also, on His left hand: Depart ye from Me, accursed ones! Into the age-abiding fire, which hath been prepared for the adversary and his messengers;
v. 46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ever the peacemaker eh Kat?.
You are right. He is correct that all men are saved. But in the aspect that he tried to correct me he was wrong, I made the assumption that we had all drunk from the same koolade jar. That we don't have to regurgitate the same truth 'salvation for all' constantly, and show everyone the same respect that they to know this truth already. We can then talk about higher things and truths. Is this not really the case? Must we keep quoting the obvious? As you said, I wasn't talking about salvation, but election. And in that point, if we don't die to the flesh now, while we yet live then after death there is no second chance to make our calling and election sure. I see no point to even enter the race if I am not running to obtain the prize of the high calling. Maybe others don't share my goal. I only speak for myself.
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Second chances? What is this teaching?
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Second chances? What is this teaching?
Correct eskimojerry. There are no second chances. Your either one of God's elect or you are not. I would like to think that I am one of God's elect but I don't know that. I do know about the work He is doing in my life and more and more I want to obey Him. As He said if you love me you will obey me. Those who don't truly know Christ in this age never will and will always be in the judgement. I'm glad that God is working in my life and to whatever He has install for me I am happy with that. Indeed I rejoice in that.
Rhys
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Correct eskimojerry. There are no second chances. Your either one of God's elect or you are not. ...Those who don't truly know Christ in this age never will and will always be in the judgement.
Am I still at Bible-Truths.com? Are "the Elect" the LAST to be chosen? What is judgement FOR except to lead people to truly know Christ? Won't every knee bow and every tongue aver that Jesus Christ is Lord?
Are the Elect not going to be "saved"? Are the "saved" NEVER going to be 'Elect'? How are "the saved" going to be "saved", then? By their own free-will? EVERYBODY is going to be chosen...each in their own turn. The Elect aren't the Elect because of anything in them or done by them...they are ELECT because they have been ELECTED. And they aren't the end, and truly not even the beginning.
When Ray talks about theology's use of the term 'second chances', he's talking about the element of CHANCE, not 'first'. 'second', 'only', etc. This isn't about CHANCE but about CERTAINTY!
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Sorry you have me confused Dave. Was talking in reference to no second chance in this life. I agree with you God's elect have been elected by Him and not based on what they have done. Of course God has time for each of us. We can only die to the flesh by His leading.
Dear Ray: I have learned a great deal from the writings on your website. We are studying Paul’s letter to the Romans. Paul writes often about the wrath of God starting already in Rom 1:18. How do you reconcile God’s wrath with the Gospel and 1 Tim 2:4 where it says ‘He desires all to be saved’?
Sincerely,
Ed
Dear Ed:
I'm afraid I don't understand your question. What does the fact of God's wrath have to do with His will to save all mankind? His wrath is His Judgment, and God will SAVE most of humanity through JUDGMENT. Read my series on "The Lake of Fire." There are two judgments--one on believers NOW; and another on non-believers LATER. If we are judged now, we will avoid the "wrath to come."
God be with you,
Ray
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Correct eskimojerry. There are no second chances. Your either one of God's elect or you are not. ...Those who don't truly know Christ in this age never will and will always be in the judgement.
Am I still at Bible-Truths.com? Are "the Elect" the LAST to be chosen? What is judgement FOR except to lead people to truly know Christ? Won't every knee bow and every tongue aver that Jesus Christ is Lord?
Are the Elect not going to be "saved"? Are the "saved" NEVER going to be 'Elect'? How are "the saved" going to be "saved", then? By their own free-will? EVERYBODY is going to be chosen...each in their own turn. The Elect aren't the Elect because of anything in them or done by them...they are ELECT because they have been ELECTED. And they aren't the end, and truly not even the beginning.
When Ray talks about theology's use of the term 'second chances', he's talking about the element of CHANCE, not 'first'. 'second', 'only', etc. This isn't about CHANCE but about CERTAINTY!
I conclusively agree with Dave, perhaps it's the use of the word "Chance," nothings by chance, everything that happens to everyone was already planned in advance down to it's intricate details which includes who the Chosen Elect are going to be, God does the work in you. Ask Paul, better yet, ask anyone who knew Paul prior to His conversion and even some of the apostles for a short time after. They knew who He was before and what He was doing, so they had some caution towards associating with Him for a short while. None of them knew or expected that Saul who became Paul would be a chosen vessel because of His sordid past being the worst of sinners, but God had other plans.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKETH in you both to will and TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME.
Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Good Post Dave, Samson.
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chance in the form I used meant opportunity. How did you all go off on this ridiculous bender? obedience and suffering the cleansing fires of gehennas fires does bring a reward. It's not salvation of the masses. It is election and adoption.
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Okay then how do you reconcile with the verses in Romans that Say none Are righteous or seek after God or understand .
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Christ had nowhere to lay his head the foxes have holes in the bird had nests. None are righteous It says none are righteous or seek after God. I think the key here is 1 simple verse. Let not sin reign in your mortal body. I won't go in to why I think it is crazy to even suggest 1 lives without sin. The key is like Ray said we are all of the beast the only difference is is it has been manifested in some to realize itto and others it has not.
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there is no conflict with what I said and Romans. I cannot comprehend why you would think so. Christ within us is our hope of Glory. Any righteousness any of us has is only to the measure and the fullness and stature of Christ worked within us. I never stated otherwise, so why do you think I did? I said quite clearly that we must die to the flesh. Did you miss that?
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Hi thewatchman,
I see where you are coming from, I'll just add a bit more to it.
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
v. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
We know that "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7). So where does this motivation/desire to follow Christ come from?
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
So we have been given the motivation from God to "work out our own salvation," "to run the race," this does not come from our own 'self' motivation, only if God "draws us," through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And yes there is a glorious prize to keep us motivated towards our ultimate goal. It should be a joy to have this hope of being born into the kingdom in the first resurrection.
Luke 12:32 "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
But to reign with Christ is only for those few elected and prepared in this life. The rest will certainly enter the kingdom, but not to reign and rule with Christ. That's what makes being in the first resurrection such a prize and one to highly desire.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1529.msg12918.html#msg12918 -----
The "Kingdom of God" is the kingdom that will rule the nations under the Kingship of Jesus Christ, composed of lesser kings, lords, priests, and judges. These kings, lords, priests, and judges, are composed of the ranks of God's Chosen Elect Saints.
Only those worthy of the First resurrection from the death will ever rule with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Those who are judged, purified and saved in the Great White Throne Judgment will be in God's family, but they will never be rulers with Christ.
And don't ask any more detailed questions on this, because it would take hours to answer you, and I just don't have the time. Much of this material is already covered in my Lake of Fire series. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
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Ok you all have fun I will let you back to your normal discussion.
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Avidfisher, are you and Oatmeal the same person?
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I have no need to hide behind multiple names, and will not be back, so like I said before, have fun and resume your discussion like I was never here.....
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nicely put kat. it was hard to imagine that Ray hadn't covered it.
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the information in this post was very nourishing thanks
everyone