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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rocky on January 03, 2007, 02:06:05 AM
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I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor.
If this is the case, then who does the older son represent. I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called.
But then i read this verse regarding the older son,
Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"
Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction.
So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire).
any thoughts??
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I think the prodigal son was first a vessel of dishonor and later a vessel of honor.
Like Esau, the prodigal son sold his inheritance for a bowl of stew (riotous living). He was reduced to the level of pig. His father called him "lost and dead". The word "lost" is apollumi which also means "destroyed". So he was a vessel of dishonor who was destroyed.
But once he realized the error of his ways and repented and returned home, he was shown mercy. Thus he became a vessel of honor.
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I think the prodigal son was first a vessel of dishonor and later a vessel of honor.
Like Esau, the prodigal son sold his inheritance for a bowl of stew (riotous living). He was reduced to the level of pig. His father called him "lost and dead". The word "lost" is apollumi which also means "destroyed". So he was a vessel of dishonor who was destroyed.
But once he realized the error of his ways and repented and returned home, he was shown mercy. Thus he became a vessel of honor.
Yeah, I agree. And that's why i'm wondering if he represents the many called rather than few called and chosen. While the faithful son (older son) represents the called and chose??
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I guess i see the Lof as complete destruction, the stone falling on HIm and crushing him, rather than him fallling on the stone.
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Are you sure the elder son was faithful? He SAYS he was faithful. In fact, he claims to NEVER have sinned:
Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends.
But what does Christ say about those who think they have no sin?
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Look at the elder son's attitude:
Luke 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
Compare how the pharisees and the elder son complained about accepting and eating with sinners.
Matthew 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Luke 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
I don't think the elder son is elect at all.
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I'm not sure just which one is the elect; I'm thinking that the prodigal son is he elect b/c he repented and finallly lived right; whereas the oldest son whom always had lived right had suddenly developed a hardened heart and become jealous (evil and unforgiving.), kind of like the two boys switched roles/hearts??? ??? :) This will be interesting to see what the real story is.
( I do know that in MY earthly Family I am always the black sheep; and yet I do realize that our fight is not against the flesh and blood but, against the evil one, thus they are not spiritually minded, rather carnal.)
THANKFULLY tho...to those whom HE loves are sons indeed! :D
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I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor.
If this is the case, then who does the older son represent. I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called.
But then i read this verse regarding the older son,
Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"
Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction.
So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire).
any thoughts??
I believe the prodigal son to be about the elect and their lives.
We all come to the truth and see how marvelous it is, and then before that man of sin is revealed comes the falling away. We go into a far away land and spend all our money that we had, and we don't return until we have rolled around in the filth of the pigs and come to see the beast we are, how the works of our flesh are discusting until we get so sick of sinning that we return to our father and just tell Him, look make me one of your servents i'n not even worthy, and then when we are completely broken is when He gives us everything, when He fainly take sthe throne in the temple of our hearts.
Thats how i see it, and have for a while. Let me know what yo uthink, agree disagree, why/whynot.
God bless,
Alex
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Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
One son refuses to go but later repents and goes. Isn't that what the prodigal son did?
Meanwhile, the other son SAYS "I go" but does not go. Didn't the elder son say "I go" when he said "...neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment..." But was the elder son telling the truth? I don't see how, seeing as "...they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one...."
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Something very important guys is..
Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Christ saves that WHICH IS LOST.
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
I'm pretty sure the one that is 'saved' [He that endureth to the end shall be saved.] is the the elect, a type and shadow of the elect and their life.
Atleast how i still see it, feel free to share your insight.
God bless,
Alex
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On one of Ray's tapes he said that all the parables are the same. He said if you understand one parable you will understand all of them.
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On one of Ray's tapes he said that all the parables are the same. He said if you understand one parable you will understand all of them.
Yup many are called and few are chosen, that can be seen in ALL the parables.
God bless,
Alex.
P.S. I'm off to bed :P
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I hear you all, and can and have seen it the same way.
But several things make me wonder, one is the verse i posted on broad is the way to destruction and many go that way (many called, few chosen) and narrow is the way to life (few). The prodigal son took the path to destruction. Secondly, the verse that Jesus says to the elder son,
Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
That to me doesn't sound like the whore, babylon. Why would Jesus say to the whore, all that I have is thine.
The other thing is as Bob pointed out, the prodigal son is like Essau, who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup. Well in Romans 9, we know that Essau is who is hated, and Jacob is who is loved (for election purpose). Jacob represents the few called and chosen doesn't he?
I also see the LOF is seen as the means to repentance through complete destruction, so again the prod son seems to fit that bill.
But as a lot of you have posted, there is good argument the other way, and I do agree with what Bob wrote about the elder son was prideful, and didn't see his sin (sounds like a pharisee to me), and i find it interesting the elder son is the first born, and we are told the elder is to serve the younger. Essau was the elder son, so maybe the prodigal son shouldn't be looked at as the one who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup, but there sure is some resemblance; being given the inheritance up front, and wasting it away.
Anyway, thanks for the dialogue, good thots.
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Here are a few more thoughts on this, the prodigal son seems to me is reflective of those who build their house upon the sand.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand (wasted inheritance??):
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
The prodigal son built his house upon sand, and great was his fall.
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
But we have the example of those who don't build there house on sand, but on the rock (chosen and faithful)
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken (chosen and faithful); but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (prodigal son, house built on sand).
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I found this in Ray's LoF article 4, thought I would add it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html ----------------------------------------
LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let’s look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks are easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don’t even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won’t read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.
God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.
"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).
This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn’t this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).
Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:
"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).
How pray tell can the physically dead, stand, if they are dead?
So here then is the order of things. The Prodigal Son SINNED, he was LOST, he spiritually DIED, and then? And then he was JUDGED! Where and when was he judged? In the hog pens of a far alien country, that’s where. God had to bring him out of this alien county (Mystery Babylon the Great) with all its "riotous living" (Luke 15:13). And so it was that God JUDGED this Prodigal with the beasts and swine of Babylon until he "came to himself." (Ver. 17). Seems to me that God sent King Nebuchadnezzer into the fields with the beasts to live like a beast, so that he too "came to himself." God has not warned in vain to
"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).
Him that has an ear, let him hear.
And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can’t be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.
May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God’s "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!
"...For when Thy [God’s] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat.
Ray quotes a verse
"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).
That is interesting to me. did the prodigal son partake of her sins? or did he come out before partaking of her sins? Did he receive the plagues (destruction)? or did he repent before the plagues?
Seems to me, the called, chosen and faithful come out of babylon, before destruction by plagues.
Also, the Nebechenezer sp? example is helpful. He went the way of destruction in order to come to a point of repentance. He had to have everything stripped of him. He received the plagues.
Thanks again.
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Hi Rocky,
That is interesting to me. did the prodigal son partake of her sins? or did he come out before partaking of her sins? Did he receive the plagues (destruction)? or did he repent before the plagues?
Seems to me, the called, chosen and faithful come out of babylon, before destruction by plagues.
Yes I do think we partake of her (the church) sins,
when we are there, we are just as blind as they are.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.
So if we do come out of her (the church), as it says "that you may notreceive of her plagues."
We have this assurance that if Christ is in us, He will protect us from the plagues that come.
Psa 91:14 "Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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One underlying point in this and other parables is RELATIONSHIP. The Prodical parable says the father has 2 sons one who stayed, and the other, who left. The father obviously LOVED both sons and here is how it appears to me. The Prodigal son wanted to be AWAY from his father and live it up. The other son stayed with his father while the other was away. The question is, to a casual glance, though the father LOVED both sons, he didn't really have a RELATIONSHIP with either one.
Just as our Heavenly Father LOVES us. Some who are lost are caused to see their waywardness repent of that sin, like the prodical son was. On the other hand, the other son represents those who think, just because"I was here working my tail off...." will feel shafted at the love shown to those lost sheep who wander from the shepard. Was "being there" enough to be called a RELATIONSHIP ? Jesus said that not all who call Him Lord Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This refers (to me) to the home son. Just because you did good work (in your eyes) doesn't mean your work won't be filthy rags. Because they were done to please your flesh, it's filthy rags to God.
That verse Rocky and Bobf point to about election is in Romans 9:11
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT OF WORKS, but of him that calleth;)
As we grow in proper RELATIONSHIP with our Father in Christ Jesus. Then the work we do, as the Spirit leads, will prosper in what God intended.
Ches
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Hi dogcombat,
I like what you have said.
This parable is about the church. Those in the church are introducted to Christ, so to speak, but they do not 'know' Him.
He is our first love, but then we fall away, as the prodigal son left his Father, we too lose our first love.
We were always lost, as the church is, but when we hit rock bottom, when we have went the ways of this world to the point we can not take it anymore and we see how filithy we really are.
Then we come to our senses, or our eyes are opened, and then we begin to have a relationship with Christ and the Father.
It is at this point that we are able to really appreciate, what we are given in Christ.
It is a great day when God brings us home, and clothes us.
The brother was satisifed just to have a knowledge of Christ, but did not have a relationship with Him.
All have to go through judgment, the elder brother or the whole church, will have to go through judgment later, as the prodigal son or elect are going through judgment now.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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By far, the most interestng character in this story is the stay-at-home son; but that's not what's on my mind.
Why all the talk about which son fulfills anyone's idea of who is "saved" or "elect?" Such talk is clanging bells. I believe the overarching theme of this (and, yes, all biblical parables) is that love conquers all -- therefore, if God is love -- then God conquers all. Whichever path brings us home is the right path and is cause for rejoiciing -- sometimes party-like and sometimes in the quiet confidence of a dutiful son.
Does it matter which son you are or I am? What matters is all are welcome to come home. I do not understand the futile impulse to categorize each other. Jesus did not ask us to evaluate one another -- He asked us to love one another. It's that simple.
The story stands on its own without meddling. It is a beautiful lesson on life, love, acceptance and forgiveness. It is folly and does Jesus' words a disservice to try and make His lesson into something to make us feel special -- we already are!
Peace
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Beautiful, beautiful
I think that this story is so tampered with we lose the orginal beauty of it just as your post says. Your post has showed me the original beuaty of this parable. All things are beautiful until mankind tampers with them to justify his own position of things.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor.
If this is the case, then who does the older son represent. I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called.
But then i read this verse regarding the older son,
Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"
Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction.
So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire).
any thoughts??
The verse that you underlined has always thrown a bit of a wrench into my view of the parable, which seems to be the same as yours. That is, if the stay at home son represents the called, the one who will be cast into outer darkness, the one who will be weeping and gnashing hist teeth, looking at the kingdom from the outside, then why does his father tell him "you are always with me, and all that I have is yours?"
First of all, the stay at home son has to represent the many called who will not be in the kingdom, because it harmonizes with all of the other parables such as the 99 sheep, the faithful and wicked servants, the house on the sand or the rock, the rich man and Lazarus, and so forth.
There is only good one answer that I can surmise as to why the stay at home son is told that.
Ezekiel 14
4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.
2 Thessalonians 2
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
That's the best I can come up with. In this parable, Jesus is showing us how God will answer the called according to the idols that they have in their heart so that they remain complacent, because of their carnality and stubborness.
That could also be why in the parable of the wedding banquet, the man is speechless when he is asked why he is not wearing wedding clothes. Because, due the idols in his own heart, he was given over into thinkingthat he was on the narrow path to life, when in fact he was on the path to destruction.
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I always thought this parable was about people like me. My only problem is that I've been a prodical son several times. You just wonder how many chances God gives you. I may be wrong, but I feel like this is my last shot. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I don't know what brought me out of that pigpen; if it was His love or because I feared Him. I pray to God everyday that He'll never let me fall again. Is it just me or have any of you had these experiences too? I know that God is in control of everything and that nothing slips by Him, but just like this parable, one brother is with Him always and the other brother was such a failure that he did'nt even feel like a son anymore. I have felt like that so many times I can't tell you.
You know, even Ray talks about how few will really be chosen, I mean two million came out of Egypt and only two made it into the promise land. The Lord said on many occaisions that only a few will be chosen. Are we at the mercy of the Lord or what? When you realize that you can't even take a breath without Him or do anything without Him is so humbling. And the closer we get to Him, the more we feel so helpless. This parable has been such a merciful blessing to me that when ever I read it I just cry.
I love you all in Him,
Dwight
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Dwight,
I have felt that way many times.
We are always at the mercy of the Lord. I love that. It makes me feel great that I can do nothing to thwart the Will of God. That takes so much pressure off my back to where I can be like the brother who came home after spending some not so quality time with the pigs. It allows me to experience grace and the Father's love in a new way.
Truly his banner over us is love. What a mighty and awesome God we serve.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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My Dad ask me how many times am I going to be the prodigal son. I have had quite a few "Do Overs"
Longhorn
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Are you sure the elder son was faithful? He SAYS he was faithful. In fact, he claims to NEVER have sinned:
Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends.
But what does Christ say about those who think they have no sin?
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Look at the elder son's attitude:
Luke 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
Compare how the pharisees and the elder son complained about accepting and eating with sinners.
Matthew 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Luke 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
I don't think the elder son is elect at all.
Exactly! The elder son is the self-righteous -holier- than- though- modern-day- pharisee- christian who sees no need to repent [since he 'sinned not'] and or forgive but rather to judge and condemn.
That's how I see this.
Take care,
Sorin
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I always thought this parable was about people like me. My only problem is that I've been a prodical son several times. You just wonder how many chances God gives you. I may be wrong, but I feel like this is my last shot.
Hello Dwight,
We are all prone to fall, repent and ask Him to lift us up again and again. This is the purging of our carnal nature, the things we once loved we begin to hate, we despise being in bondage to our baser desires but are powerless to overcome them without His Spirit within us giving us the strength.
I know the torment of continual failure and weakness, the following verses are a few of the many scriptures that give comfort in times like this.
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Look at how we are admonished to forgive our brethren, does the Lord expect more from us than He is willing to give? We all know the answer to that.
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor.
If this is the case, then who does the older son represent. I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called.
But then i read this verse regarding the older son,
Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"
Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction.
So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire).
any thoughts??
The verse that you underlined has always thrown a bit of a wrench into my view of the parable, which seems to be the same as yours. That is, if the stay at home son represents the called, the one who will be cast into outer darkness, the one who will be weeping and gnashing hist teeth, looking at the kingdom from the outside, then why does his father tell him "you are always with me, and all that I have is yours?"
First of all, the stay at home son has to represent the many called who will not be in the kingdom, because it harmonizes with all of the other parables such as the 99 sheep, the faithful and wicked servants, the house on the sand or the rock, the rich man and Lazarus, and so forth.
There is only good one answer that I can surmise as to why the stay at home son is told that.
Ezekiel 14
4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.
2 Thessalonians 2
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
That's the best I can come up with. In this parable, Jesus is showing us how God will answer the called according to the idols that they have in their heart so that they remain complacent, because of their carnality and stubborness.
That could also be why in the parable of the wedding banquet, the man is speechless when he is asked why he is not wearing wedding clothes. Because, due the idols in his own heart, he was given over into thinkingthat he was on the narrow path to life, when in fact he was on the path to destruction.
I found this interesting this morning, by faith we are children of God. The inheritance is ours.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
or another translation (NLT)
7 Now you are no longer a slave but God's own child.* And since you are his child, everything he has belongs to you.
this sounds similar to the verse re: the elder son in Matthew, everything I have is yours.
Both sons started out with the inheritancde (Christ), one waisted it (sounds like the foolish Galatians, reverting badk to self righteousness through law abiding), and one by faith stayed close to the father. One a martha, and one a mary.
Excellent points from all parties. And either way, like a post earlier said, we're missing the big picture of God's love. To me, one is through destruction/LOF, waisting Christ through law abiding; and one by faith. Either way all will confess Christ is LORD.
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I used to feel that this was unfair to the older son. I no longer do. I used to be like the older son in one way. I thought I was righteous. But I was not. I was proud and should have been ashamed. I was jealous and should have been grateful. The older son is very righteous. He acts like he is a perfect son without flaws. He resents the celebration the younger son gets because he is jealous. He should have been glad his brother returned and was not. His heart was NOT filled with love. The younger son came back humbled with a heart filled with love for his father and family. It is a journey we all take. For those of you who are righteous, I feel sorry for you. You are not. I am filled with joy that the prodigal son came back. He is me and he is every man and women. We all stray and we all sin. Thanks and praise be to Jesus, we are forgiven. We are all welcome back into the loving arms of God but we must be humbled before we "want" to return. That was the true miracle in the story. The prodigal son suddenly "wanted" to go back. His heart was changed. The older son had a hardened heart judging by his lack of rejoicing for his reunion with his long lost brother. That is my 2 cents for what it is worth.
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I can see a parallel between the story of the prodigal son and with the story of Joseph.
Joseph was living a good life with his Father, as was the younger brother with his father.
Both left there father, the circumstances were different, but they both ended up in a far off land, and they were dealing with a lot of trails and difficulties.
As the younger son 'came to himself' he went to his father, sounds like us coming to our senses, when God dragged us to Him.
In Joseph's story his father sent his brothers unknowingly, to seek help from their brother. It was a very difficult thing for them to except Joseph as being their ruler. There could be seen a parallel there as to the church most certainly will not want the elect to rule over them.
Now the older brother was complaining about what the Father had given the younger son.
Luk 15:31 And he said to him, Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.
If you notice, this is after the younger son had returned home and was received back unto the father, maybe this is a parallel to the reward of the first resurrection.
So this seems like to me the older brother is not happy about what he received.
It is the same as in the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
Mat 20:10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius.
Mat 20:11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house,
This unwillingness to forgive what we see as faults of others is also shown in the parable of the unmerciful servant.
Mat 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.
Mat 18:35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."
I think all of these parables are showing the same thing, that the Father will reward as He sees fit,
And nobody should be bothered or jealous, because it is the Father who rewards as He so chooses.
mercy, peace,a nd love
Kat
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Hello Joe and Slim,
I want to thank you both for your words of understanding. How wonderful that God's forgiveness has no bounds or limits. I just feel so unworthy as I know you both do too. Slim, especially now, knowing about your cancer must really put this into perspective. Brothers, our lives are so short like a vapour and then is gone so quickly. So what that we know all the doctrines and have all the knowledge that we can show the world our self-taught wisdom, without His love and mercy we are nothing. I thank God that He led me to you because quite frankly, I can't go on alone anymore. I need the body of Christ. I need your fellowship.....I need you!
Your brother,
Dwight,
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Someone may have said this, but the older son seems to represent the jewish people (jews by the flesh) and the prodigal represents the gentile people who went away but came to the knowledge of his father through experience. He who is first will be last. The jew in the flesh always had the opportunity but since he did not take it the prodigal son was grafted in. The older son respected his father out of his father's position and the prodigal respected his father out of love.
CIY
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Dwight, sometimes I get a little jealous of the fellowship that real live believers have, but ya know I love this forum, Ray, Mods, posters, lurkers who ever. I feel a connection here. Dwight, you have a home fellowship group right here!! Cyberspace is kinda like the spirit world now, anyway!!
Please don't think better of any of us-we are all human and seems like we mess up a lot!! :D
I have found nothing but love & acceptance here.
love ya,
gena
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Thats the way I feel too gena.
If i feel down or if I'm having a really bad day,
I come to the forum and I get to feeling better,
because there is so much love here.
Iris
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Gena and Iris,
I come to the forum first thing every morning and that is the last thing I do before going to bed. I also do it several times during the day. It is the love and fellowship as well as the openess to discuss with eachother questions of the faith. I love it. I can be ME and not be condemned for it or have to walk on the proverbial egg shells. Yeah. ;D
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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I find this in support of the elder son being the elect:
Here to the elder son, this is quoted:
Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
And here to the chosen, Jesus quotes this:
Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
I also find it interesting that everyone who believes in Him won't perish (be destroyed) but have life eternal
and the prodigal son did perish (be destroyed).
Still studying this.
God bless.
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I also find it interesting that everyone who believes in Him won't perish (be destroyed) but have life eternal and the prodigal son did perish (be destroyed).
Everyone who believes in Christ won't perish, but that is different from saying that everyone who believes in Christ never perished.
Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Both underlined words are apollumi [destroyed, lost, perished]
The sheep that went astray WAS perished. And yet Jesus also says that it is not the Father's will that that sheep SHOULD perish. Likewise, the prodigal son DID perish and yet once he returned he WON'T perish.
The elder son is like the 99 sheep who "never went astray". Is there any such sheep?
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Notice below it says Jesus is not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
Matthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Is Jesus really saying that some are truly "whole" and "righteous"? No, he's talking about those who THINK they are whole & righteous, like the pharisees. Jesus came to call the sinners (prodigal sons) to repentance, not the righteous (remember the elder son claimed to be righteous).
As far as "all that is mine is thine" it may be similar to Israel according to the flesh being entrusted with the things of God.
Romaans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.
That's how I see it anyway.
You might want to read Psalm 107. I think it gives the "pattern" for the "redeemed of the Lord".
God bless
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I also find it interesting that everyone who believes in Him won't perish (be destroyed) but have life eternal and the prodigal son did perish (be destroyed).
Everyone who believes in Christ won't perish, but that is different from saying that everyone who believes in Christ never perished.
Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Both underlined words are apollumi [destroyed, lost, perished]
The sheep that went astray WAS perished. And yet Jesus also says that it is not the Father's will that that sheep SHOULD perish. Likewise, the prodigal son DID perish and yet once he returned he WON'T perish.
The elder son is like the 99 sheep who "never went astray". Is there any such sheep?
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Notice below it says Jesus is not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
Matthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Is Jesus really saying that some are truly "whole" and "righteous"? No, he's talking about those who THINK they are whole & righteous, like the pharisees. Jesus came to call the sinners (prodigal sons) to repentance, not the righteous (remember the elder son claimed to be righteous).
As far as "all that is mine is thine" it may be similar to Israel according to the flesh being entrusted with the things of God.
Romaans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.
That's how I see it anyway.
You might want to read Psalm 107. I think it gives the "pattern" for the "redeemed of the Lord".
God bless
i fully understand your post, and i'm not saying i don't see it too, but what about the verse above in my post. Why would the father say this to the elder son.
Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
And here to the chosen, Jesus quotes this:
Jhn 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
These verses make me think.
(oops, just fully read all of your post Bob re: the verses above, i'll look more into that. thanks)
Also,
I also think it is interesting that both sons were already given their inheritance (past tense), before the prodigal son went out and waisted it on worldly pleasures. This would make me think that both at one time had repented, recieved the inheritance; and then one went and turned back to the world. One seeked his own life and lost it (lost his inheritance, the prodigal son) and one didn't waist his inheritance.]
Seems like to me the prod. son was this guy
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
One last thing i think of, isn't the LOF also to bring one to repentance, to humble one.
Thanks Bob for the scriptures, and as I said; i can see it both ways.
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I have a question about this verse, hope some will help me here.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
I see the ground to powder, as those in LOF, and the chosen those who by his mercy have fallen on Christ, not having to go through the severeness of LOF.
My guess is, most here see this as the opposite, that the elect are the one's ground to powder.
But then who is the one's broken??
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i fully understand your post, and i'm not saying i don't see it too, but what about the verse above in my post. Why would the father say this to the elder son....
Luke 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
I gave one possibility for "all that I have is thine." I don't have an answer for why he says "thou are ever with me."
I also think it is interesting that both sons were already given their inheritance (past tense), before the prodigal son went out and waisted it on worldly pleasures. This would make me think that both at one time had repented, recieved the inheritance; and then one went and turned back to the world. One seeked his own life and lost it (lost his inheritance, the prodigal son) and one didn't waist his inheritance.
I see what you're saying. But lets suppose the elder son represents God's elect.
- Do God's elect claim to have never transgressed God's commandments?
- Will God's elect, who are appointed to judge the world and to bring the world into God's kingdom, object and complain when God welcomes a repentant sinner?
- Will God's elect refuse to come in and celebrate with God?
- Did God never kill the fatted calf for His elect (as the elder son says)?
The elder son seems to have the qualities of a pharisee who follows the letter of the law but does not know mercy. They do not seem to be the qualities of God's elect, who will be raised like Him.
One last thing i think of, isn't the LOF also to bring one to repentance, to humble one.
Yeah, that's how I see it.
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Rocky,
I see it as you see it; the elect are the ones that are willingly and humbly falling at the feet of Jesus with a broken and contrite heart; while Jesus is the one whom must and will fall onto the 'non elect' with the intention of purging the sin out of them- probably against their 'will', whereas they must be crushed and ground to powder for HIM to start all over with molding their hearts and minds since they didn't or weren't willing to do it on their own. (I may be wrong here, but, this will be interesting to see what the others perceive. ):D
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I have a question about this verse, hope some will help me here.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
I see the ground to powder, as those in LOF, and the chosen those who by his mercy have fallen on Christ, not having to go through the severeness of LOF.
My guess is, most here see this as the opposite, that the elect are the one's ground to powder.
I used to see it 100% the way you see it: ground-to-powder=LOF. But yeah, now I see it the other way: ground-to-power=beast slain.
But then who is the one's broken??
The one who stumbles at the stumbling stone.
Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
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Bobf wrote: I don't have an answer for why he says "thou are ever with me."
Rocky: maybe something related to this:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Bob wrote:
I see what you're saying. But lets suppose the elder son represents God's elect.
- Do God's elect claim to have never transgressed God's commandments?
Rocky writes:
Good point, here are a couple scriptures that came to mind
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
But then we have this one too:
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Bob writes:
- Will God's elect, who are appointed to judge the world and to bring the world into God's kingdom, object and complain when God welcomes a repentant sinner?
- Will God's elect refuse to come in and celebrate with God?
- Did God never kill the fatted calf for His elect (as the elder son says)?
The elder son seems to have the qualities of a pharisee who follows the letter of the law but does not know mercy. They do not seem to be the qualities of God's elect, who will be raised like Him.
Rocky writes: good point again. I definitely see what you are saying here.
Appreciate your input.
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This thread is an example of why it is such a blessing to be here in fellowship with like minded brethren.
As Joe said in another earlier thread….there are three types and two results.
For me the types are categorised as follows:
1 The Elect. Called and chosen. This is the Prodigal son returning home. Faithful to the mission to get home and focused in this endeavour neither turning left nor right. Faithful to death if necessary to return home to the Father. Psalms 31 : 15 My times are in Your hands; deliver me from the hands of my foes and those who pursue me and persecute me.
2. The called. The unfaithful. Those in the house of Christendom who worshiping the carnal house have no knowledge of the Father. The stay at home son who will be cast out, corrected and then returned to the Father once corrected for his blindness, envy and disagreement with his brother. Luke 13 : 26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets. 27 But He will say, I tell you , I do not know where, what household – certainly not Mine you come from; depart from Me, all you wrongdoers.
Matt 8 : 12 While the sons and heirs of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
3. The ones that go by the broad way. The Prodigal son leaving home for the carnal temptations of the world and leaving His first love. Mark 10 : 24 ...Children how hard it is for those who trust, place their confidence, their sense of safety in riches to enter the kingdom of God.
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
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I wanted to say thank you to all who responded to this thread. After prayer last night, and pondering more on this this morning, the spirit of Christ in me agrees with what you all have been saying, and I have been looking at this parable wrongly. I was drawn to this verse this morning:
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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I wanted to say thank you to all who responded to this thread. After prayer last night, and pondering more on this this morning, the spirit of Christ in me agrees with what you all have been saying, and I have been looking at this parable wrongly. I was drawn to this verse this morning:
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
That's cool rocky. I'm familiar with how you've been thinking about this, because I went down the same road on this subject and struggled with it for quite a long time.
The parable of the prodigal son and the narrow gate vs. wide gate is found all throughout scripture. But so far as I have been able to tell, there is no such thing as one who goes through the narrow gate without going through the wide gate first. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, I'd like someone to point out how & why.
Here is an OT passage where I saw the same pattern as the parable of the prodigal son.
Notice the subject: The REDEEMED OF THE LORD.
Psalms 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
God has to GATHER them.
Psalm 107:3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
Because they went their own way and were scattered and in distress.
Psalms 107:4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. 5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
From inside trouble, they return to the Lord and cry out in faith and God delivers them.
Psalms 107:6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
And leads them home.
Psalms 107:7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.
Praise God!
Psalms 107:8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men.
The rest of the Psalm repeats this same parable about five times over in different ways.
Arcturus summed it up nicely. The prodigal son leaving home is entering the wide gate. The prodigal son returning home is the elect entering the narrow gate.
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I enjoyed the Psalm you added Bobf 8)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello All,
Seems you have all raised many questions but are left with many answers without some one putting them all together and really nailing a conclusion.
Has the parable the prodigal ( or a bettered translation is "lost") son whetted your appetites.? If you want to get a better pespective on the whole teaching and get a few more straight answers, why not study all 42 Chapters of Job.
You could say Job started out as the son who stayed at home, but became the "lost" son who found the Lord. He had a fate and terrible trial fart worse than just feeding the pigs.
I think Job was called and chosen and is on of the elect.
Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto satan, Have you considered my servant Job, here is none like him in he earth, as perfect and upright man, one that escheweth evil? and still holdss
fast his integrity, though you move against him, to destroy him without cause.
Vic.
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Vic,
Job is a wonderful book. I have not read it all, but becuase it has come up so much on the forum I am going to read it. I thought in the first chapter, God said to Satan In all the earth is there NO ONE like Job? Guys was he ever lost? Or are you referring to him being lost becuase he went through the trials?
Job is a very confusing book for me, I am trying to nail down the basic books of the bible first. I have not been a believer and follower of Christ for a long time in my life and am learning some of this for the first time. I have believed for about 4-5 years now.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hi Vic,
No one could receive salvation before Christ came.
Here is an email of Ray's that makes this point.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html -----------------------
Dear Dave:
Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.
What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing! And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:18). Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ. "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes. Are we 'saved by faith?' NO--'By GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8. Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life? NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).
Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins? NO. No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']" (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).
Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?' Answer: "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN H-I-M [JESUS]" (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.
Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat