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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: DWIGHT on February 18, 2007, 03:31:21 AM
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Hi all,
For many years I have thought about the Father and the Son and their eternal relationship. The word beget or begotten occurs in both the Old and New testaments many times. The Greek word is 'monogenes' it means..only born, that is, sole: only (begotten, child), Strongs #3439. Now we have read and heard this term most of our lives but did we ever really know what it actually meant? According to Merriam-Webster Collegiate Thesaurus, there are two synonyms to this word beget, and they are: (1) Father and (2) procreate. A deeper meaning goes like this; to sire or bring into life.
Now the question is, if Jesus was sired or brought to life, how can He be eternal? The Bible says that He is eternal, and yet it also says He was the only begotten Son of the Father...a contradiction? No!!!!
Brother Ray has taught us so many deep truths, that the other day, Joe said, we could discuss his teachings on the forum for a long time even if he never wrote another paper.
When the audios from the September conference came out, Ray said something that absoulutley blew me away. It's the #2 audio about God creating Adam and Eve in His own image. I have wondered why no one has brought this up before or maybe you have and I just didn't see it, but toward the end of his message he said, "where did His Son come from?" Now you had to listen to the first part of the audio to know why Ray asked this question.
Ray shows and proves to us through the scriptures that in creating Adam and Eve in His image that God is both male and female. Gen. 1:24 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Then later in Gen. 5:1-2, "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness (image) of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them," Now, for those of you that are hearing this for the first time, please don't fall off your chair as I almost did.
God created all the different species with a mate except for Adam, and the scripture says, that it is not good for man to be alone; and then God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam then He took one of his ribs and made a woman. When Adam saw the woman he said, this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh because she was taken out of man. Now, when you hear what Adam really says, you'll be shocked. He looked at the woman and saw that she had something that had belonged to Adam and it was not just a rib. Remember that God created Adam in His image and His image is both male and female....so what Adam really saw was the female part that he had, and now it was in the woman. He never created Eve from the dust like he did Adam; He created Eve from Adam because Adam was both male and female, like God.
This revelation that God is both male and female unlocks the mystery of the oneness of the Father and the Son. Have you ever heard that expression, "you were just a twinkling in your fathers eye?" Sure you were, because you were always in your father. Jesus has always been in the Father and the Father is eternal and so is Jesus. The Father begot Jesus, thus Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. He was in the begining because He was always in the Father. When Ray blew away the doctrine of the so called trinity, this began to open my eyes to the oneness of the Father and the Son.
Now the Fathers' desire is to have childern, that's why He told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and to multiply or have children. This symbol is Christ and the Church. God and the Son are one, and God and the Son want to be one with us, His children. Why? That God may be all.
Brothers and sisters, I hope this helps to open our eyes to His eternal plan for us, I know that Ray only touched upon this because there is so much more to be unveiled that we may not be ready, but I just had to share this because it's been stirred up in me ever since I listened to it.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Jn. 17:21-26.
The oneness that we share with each other is in the Father and the Son. Brothers and sisters........we have always been in the Father. Praise His holy Name.
Your brother,
Dwight
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Wow, that interesting Dwight! I've never heard the audios from the September conference. Thanks for sharing this!
I love the last sentence you wrote Brothers and sisters........we have always been in the Father.
That's awesome!
~Paula :)
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Hi Dwight,
I just listened to that audio the other day :)
You brought out some very good points.
Now the question is, if Jesus was sired or brought to life, how can He be eternal?
I was searching and found a few things of Ray's that I think might add to what you have already presented.
Here is an email.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2666.0.html ----------------------
Hi Ray, I Love your straight forward answers to the many carnal questions you must receive on a daily basis. I hope you dont find mine as such.
Question:
In what state of being was Jesus before he came to earth considering that GOD is Spirit and Jesus while on earth was a man just like you and I.
Some where in Johns Gospel Gods word states that Jesus Christ comes to earth in the flesh.
Respectfully,
Louie
Dear Louie:
Jesus was the LORD [Jehovah] God of the Old Testament. He "emptied" Himself is the word used in Phillipians to describe what Jesus did in order to become man, flesh, so that He could DIE. He has once again been returned to this splender, although he always had the "glory" of God upon Him even in His flesh. Jesus now possesses with the Father all power in heaven and earth, and all judgment is given unto Him.
God be with you,
Ray
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Here is an excerpt from Ray's Trinity paper too. It makes some very good points about how Christ and the Father relate, before He was born on earth.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -----------------------------------------------------
Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone.
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM!
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Dwight I am so happy that you have come forward to share what you have seen and that Kat has added to your insights.
I too was stirred by this observation and I have not understood it. It really threw me! All kinds of questions blew my mind! I was still on the floor and after seeing your thread and reading your post I think I am now seeing some light! Please help me out here...
So...we, the called, have come out from God through Jesus
John 1 : 1 In the beginning was the Word (Christ) and the Word was with God
...and God draggs us back to Jesus who conforms us to HIS image
Heb 12 : 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith:
... and when finished....that we may be one in one with Jesus who is in God.....
Those who are not in judgment now of God's process (those who are not called now ) of judgment, will be conformed into the image of Jesus later in the LOF White Throne and then after that God will be ALL in all......
Can you see any flaws in this understanding so far Kat or Dwight?..do you have any re-inforcements either?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus,
You are right on. For God to be all, He had to cause all, including the fall of man. As the Father, He wanted children; His Son was His only begotten, but He wanted children for His glory. They (the children) all came from the creation of Jesus (Jehovah), or out of Jesus. In the garden, they had no idea what they had, because they had nothing to compare it with, so He made the tree of good and evil. When they ate it, they died spiritually and so death passed upon all mankind. Through Christ and the cross, came the sacrifice for all mankind, so that God the Father, through Christ, could reconcile the whole world to Himself and thus be all and all.
Sister, I know that is probably oversimplifying, but some times the clearer the picture, the easier it is to see. Of course, much is left out, but that is also for a purpose; the types, the alegories, the parables, the signs, and many other things, but it all has to do with the will and purpose of God.
Remember that God the Father is the husbanman, and Christ is the firstfruit, then the chosen are the firstfruits, and then comes the harvest, It is a perfect picture of Him who is, was and will be. When Christ, who is from God, will put all under His feet and everthing is subject unto Him, that is, He has purified man in this age and the age to come, then He will deliver up the kingdom to God that God may be all and all.
In the end, the whole universe and all the earth will be God; He will be all and all.
I hope that many others will help us here, because this is just the tip of the iceberg.
God bless,
Dwight
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Hi Dwight,
What a great post!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Iris
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Dwight
Thank you brother.
Your responce does much to help and encourage my faith :
Excerpt from your post Dwight of 2nd Jan :
And in an instant, Faith and Love were at his side, and all the brothers embraced and prayed with thanksgiving to God that they were together again. And Love held him and kissed him on the neck and they wept together and all got on their knees thanking God for the vision that He had given to Christian.
"Without a vision, the people perish."
Pro. 29:18 .
Your eyes that see Him blesses me with your words that show Him...
Peace to you brother
Arcturus :)
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I think that is right - Jesus came out from God just as Eve came out from Adam. He was not created, per se, but He came out from God. There must be a difference there, because the scriptures are emphatic in telling us that we are not to worship created things, and yet, Christ is worthy of all worship.
He is The Word - so anything spoken by God - anything that comes out from Him, is Christ. I suppose the printed words on the pages of our bibles are just a shadow of the True Word. Paper and ink are nothing. The bible itself is not the true word of God - it is simply a tool we use to help us understand the true Word of God, who is Christ in us. And I'm just kind of rambling now...
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Hi Dwight and Arcturus,
This is certainly an interesting topic, I have wondered about this a lot.
These scripture in John 17 give some perspective on this subject.
John 17:22 The glory that You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as We are one,
v. 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that You sent Me and loved them even as You loved Me.
v. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, may be with Me where I am, to see My glory that You have given Me because You loved me before the foundation of the world.
v. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know You, I know You, and these know that You have sent Me.
v. 26 I made known to them Your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which You have loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
This is saying that Christ is 'one' with Father, the very same in mind and spirit. So this oneness is beginning in us now, but will be completed/perfected at the resurrection. This will evenually be given to all human being, and when all have received salvation, it is then that God will be all in all.
Eph 1:22 And He has put all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, v. 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
In the end, the whole universe and all the earth will be God; He will be all and all.
By the whole universe, you mean all being (human and angelic), right?
It is my thinking that God is creating a kind of family out of humanity, to bring them into oneness with/as God (Father and Son).
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
v. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent.
v. 19 For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
v. 20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.
What this scripture say of the Father is, He's invisible (Col. 1:15), but He is Love (John 15:10)... it is from Christ that we have to get most everything we understand about the Father.
John 14:6 Jesus said to Him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
v. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him."
I believe that the Father is the supreme being (John 14:27), but He is not a man and I think He is a being that the human mind, in it's limitations, just can not comprehind.
I believe that is why we were given Jesus Christ from Himself, the perfect representative we need, so we could have a being, like us, that we can relate to.
Heb 1:2 in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;
v. 3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high. (LITV)
This is how I am coming to see this, at this time anyway.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Lots to think about here.
When they ate it, they died spiritually and so death passed upon all mankind.
I think Ray wrote or said somewhere that the wages of sin is death and it is physical death and not spiritual death. When someone dies his spirit returns to God who gave it and his body returns to the earth. At the resurrection that same spirit will be put into a new spiritual body. It says that our spirit returns to God who gave it so does that mean that our spirit came out of God?
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Hello everyone,
I only post on rare occasions, but I try and read the posts most of the time.
Anyway, am I missing something here?
I keep reading posts that talks about the Son coming out from the Father, and Him not being the first creation of the Father.
I'm guessing we all remember Rev 3:14, Col 1:15, and Prov 8: 22-31......at least I hope the rest of you do.
Three witnesses of scripture that tells us Christ was the first creation of His Father.
Christ is created and worthy of worship, because he is our Lord and Savior.......He is one with the Father.
Not trying to bust on anyone, but just stating the truth!
Also, I am not aware of any scripture that says Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation. If you have that, please post it.
And if you have one or two more, that would be extra special.
It's fun to search for the hidden treasure, as long as it doesn't conflict with the ultimate truth of scripture.
Peace,
Alan
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Kat
Thank you for sharing what your insights and what you see. It helps us all see the bigger picture. 8)
Hello MG
You ask : so does that mean that our spirit came out of God?
For me the answer is, Yes. God is a title. Jesus is God and one with God. God the Father is the SOURCE and origin of Christ. Christ is the source and origin of us. All that is is out of the Father even Christ. We are out of all that is given to Christ which is from the Father who has given Christ everything. When we are all conformed to the image of Christ then Christ will return everything back to the Father and HE, the Father will be all in all. He is not in all at this time. His Spirit is everywhere and there is no where that His Sprit is not. He knows the beginning from the end and the end HE will be all in all….but not until Jesus returns everything back to the Father.
Alan
I think this is where we need to look at that word begotten from above. Jesus was begotten of the Father…part of the Father as is the seed in the Father. The egg was the flesh of Mary into which the seed of God was planted and became man. Christ was always the Son or seed of God. The Spirit of Christ, that is the Holy Sprit begets us and we become the children of God begotten from the seed of Christ. This is our promise and hope within us that is greater than he who is in the world.
This could never happen in the OT. It could only happen after Christ became man and died as the wheat that fell to the ground and produces a harvest. Christ is that seed that died. People are either the harvest or the tare….. the counterfeiter, the imitator or the real thing. For me Mystery Babylon is the tare storehouse in the field of the world that is visited by Jesus who calls out His own.
Christ is the personification of Wisdom that is the Spirit of Gods nature. The Spirit of God is Christ. Christ is God’s Spirit that became man. We become the children of Christ when His Spirit is begotten in us and begins the work of transforming us into the image of our Creator that is Christ. We are the begotten of Christ and Christ is the begotten of God. There is only one who is the begotten of the Father and that is the pre-eminent and ever first begotten Son of God that is Christ Jesus. There is only one to whom the name Christ applies and that is to the Anointed of God that is Jesus Christ. We are being made into the image of Christ through whom all things to man have come through which all things were given by God to Him Who is Christ.
First the Father then the Son. The Son is not the product of the Fathers Spirit. He is the Fathers Spirit. There is no Trinity. All creation is the product of the Son who has created all things in heaven and earth. We are a product of God’s Son whose Spirit is at work in us to conform us to His image. ….. grand-kids! …chosen by God, dragged to Christ and changed by Christ to the image of Jesus. That is what God wants because that is who God loves….Jesus and Jesus is the only one who has perfectly pleased His Father and would have us, His creation, do the same!
….anyway… ….that is how I see it right now…….. :-\
Thank you for your insights
Peace to you :)
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Allan Asked:
I am not aware of any scripture that says Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation. If you have that, please post it.
And if you have one or two more, that would be extra special.
It's fun to search for the hidden treasure, as long as it doesn't conflict with the ultimate truth of scripture.[/i]
Hi Allan,
I can certainly provide you with more than two witnesses to the fact that Christ was eternal with God, before the start of Creation.
First let us look at the introduction to John
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Paul supports this by staing:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
No where are we told that Christ was "created," rather he was the first born or begooten of God and is the "Word" of John 1:1. He was with God in the beginning
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
He came out of God, before the beginning because he was with God in the beginning. :)
And when God say's the following in Genesis:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Who exactly was the "us"?
It can be no other than the Word or Christ, and the following Scripture bares wittiness to this:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I hope this helps you in your search for truth Allan,
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Lots to think about here.
When they ate it, they died spiritually and so death passed upon all mankind.
I think Ray wrote or said somewhere that the wages of sin is death and it is physical death and not spiritual death. When someone dies his spirit returns to God who gave it and his body returns to the earth. At the resurrection that same spirit will be put into a new spiritual body. It says that our spirit returns to God who gave it so does that mean that our spirit came out of God?
Hi M.G. :)
Yes, our spirit is basically the breath of life, and when we die, it does indeed return to God.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The word used for "spirit" is ruwach and we can learn more by looking at it's meaning.
Spirit ( ruwach ) - 7307
Which has the first meaning of "breath" in Strongs dictionary
A further witness to this can be found in Genesis
Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.
I hiope this helps,
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Allan Asked:
I am not aware of any scripture that says Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation. If you have that, please post it.
And if you have one or two more, that would be extra special.
It's fun to search for the hidden treasure, as long as it doesn't conflict with the ultimate truth of scripture.[/i]
Hi Allan,
I can certainly provide you with more than two witnesses to the fact that Christ was eternal with God, before the start of Creation.
First let us look at the introduction to John
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Paul supports this by staing:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
No where are we told that Christ was "created," rather he was the first born or begooten of God and is the "Word" of John 1:1. He was with God in the beginning
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
He came out of God, before the beginning because he was with God in the beginning. :)
And when God say's the following in Genesis:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Who exactly was the "us"?
It can be no other than the Word or Christ, and the following Scripture bares wittiness to this:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I hope this helps you in your search for truth Allan,
Love in Christ,
Darren
Darren,
I see what you are trying to say, but respectfully......I disagree!
You use the scripture from John 1. "In the beginning was the Word....etc.....
This is the same beginning as Genesis 1. "In the beginning, God (Christ) created the heavens and the earth"
Jesus is The God of the Old Testament.
The Father has no beginning!
The verse in Colossians states that Christ is the firstborn of creation. I think this is pretty straightforward.
The US of Gen 1:26 is The Father and the Son. The Father created His Son, gave Him power over everything, and He proceeded
to create everything we know as creation! Everything is by the Father, and done through His Son!
Rom
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Just as Eve was created out of Adam, so was the Son created out of the Father.
I hope this helps your understanding. Ray will tell you the same thing.
Alan
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Allan,
Thanks very much for your comment. :)
Your original question was:
Also, I am not aware of any scripture that says Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation. If you have that, please post it. And if you have one or two more, that would be extra special.
You also state: :)
The Father has no beginning!
Which of course is totally true!! :)
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
But who was talking here? Was it not Jesus Christ giving his testimony? Is it not He who is to come?
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Does this not state that "in" the beginning, the Word was with God?
In the beginning of what?
Well Paul said the following:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
So if the begining means of all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers (Col 1:16)
Then this surely means that: "Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation"
If this is not true, then please give me Scriptual proof that God created Christ on the first day of creation.
There is no mention of that:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Remember that: "For by him were all things created" - Col 1:16
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
That God, created Christ (Jehovah) is a given, but there is no Scriptual proof to my knowledge that ever states when. We simply do not know; however, the Scriptures do say on this matter:
Jhn 1:1 [b]In the beginning was the Word[/b], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (This Christ giving his Revelation)
Whether God created Christ a 1,000,000,000,000,000th of a nano second after he was, or 1,000,000,000,000,000 light yrs later (Christ created light) :) Is I feel irrelevant, for He either was with God in the begiinng before creation or he was not. :)
Alan, respectively, please provide two or Scriptures to prove what I have stated here is incorrect.
Of course this invitation extends to everyone, for if I am wrong, I need to know. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Darren,
I'm finding this a little confusing.
I can certainly provide you with more than two witnesses to the fact that Christ was eternal with God, before the start of Creation.
I think you are saying that you agree that Christ was created at some point. The word eternal is causing some confusion for me in these posts. Are we talking about an age or never having a beginning?
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...and if I understand Dwight's post he is saying that Christ is eternal (never having a beginning) because he was always in the Father and came out of the Father?
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The Myth of the Trinity is an outstanding study by Ray that pulls out the truth from a deluge of contradictions, illusions and nonsence. Although it may not directly relate to what we are discussing here it does have a bearing on the revelations as to the relationship of Christ to God.
Ray points out that Jesus is not the Son of the Holy Spirit of God. He is the Son of God.
What really nailed it for me was the revelation Ray offers in this message that makes me believe that Christ is the Spirit of God that grew Jesus into the stature and height that was presented as the spotless Lamb and sin offering sacrificed for us by God Himself.
Excerpts from : Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?
[A Scriptural Refutation of the Trinity Theory]
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"
This whole study is worth reading over and over again "until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God..." Eph 4 : 12.....and this of course includes me as I share in your desire to come to know the Truth.
I do know that there are volumes of information on words and meaning in words like create, created, born, begat, eternal imortal and seeking, studying, praying, pondering and reflecting are simply Gods plan that through His Spirit will open all things to us all in His precious way and time.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Darren,
I'm finding this a little confusing.
I can certainly provide you with more than two witnesses to the fact that Christ was eternal with God, before the start of Creation.
I think you are saying that you agree that Christ was created at some point. The word eternal is causing some confusion for me in these posts. Are we talking about an age or never having a beginning?
M.G. It is all pretty confusing :)
I like what Dwight say's, which you commented on. "...and if I understand Dwight's post he is saying that Christ is eternal (never having a beginning) because he was always in the Father and came out of the Father?"
I believe the Scriptures I posted supports this.
Of course I might be wrong and if I am then please forgive me.
Love,
Darren
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This was all new to me when I got here Darren so I have much to learn and I'm not in any position to see what is right or wrong with any of the comments unless I've read something that Ray said. I'm eager to watch and learn though. I struggled very hard with this when I first got here. I came to a simple understanding that I was comfortable with after much prayer. It was a hard teaching for me to accept at first.
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M.G.
You are doing fine! I'm kind of different because I want to quite a few different churches growing up, and they all differed to a greater or lesser degree, so I kind of didn't believe any of it. That is what differed from what I read and studied myself. Being told that I wasn't spiritually mature enough to understand a concept that "they" couldn't explain always seemed like an oxymoron to me. :)
It's a great place to learn so please never be afraid to ask for understanding; for there are many here more knowledgeable than I. :)
Brotherly love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Allan and Darren,
Brothers, I think that you are both seeing the same thing from a different perspective. Jesus is both the first creation and the eternal Son of God. Again, this sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't.
Listen to what Isaiah says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." How can something created be called, The mighty God, The everlasting Father? Well, it just said so. The only begotten Son is The mighty God and The everlasting Father. Don't try to read something into it; it is what it is. It doesn't say that He's like the Mighty God or He's like the everlasting Father; it says, He is The mighty God, he is The everlasting Father....that's His name, that's what He shall be called.
Now, this scripture is a witness to the scriptures that Darren quoted. "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word....WAS GOD." Jn. 1:1 So, we have proof that Jesus was God...even as Ray points out that Jesus Himself never claimed to be God...but thought it not robbery to be equal with God...
Now, Paul says in Col. 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:..." and in Rev. 3:14 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" These two scriptures match the fact that Jesus is the first of all of God's creation, these are the scriptures that Allan quoted. Both are 100% right. Jesus is the almighty God, the everlasting Father, the Word, who was God, and the firstborn of every creature.
It all goes back to cause and affect. When a husband and wife come together they create a child.....male and female=child. They caused a child to be created. Right? God, being male and female, created the only begotten Son who is the firstborn of all creation. The earthly child was always in his earthly father as long as that father has lived. But the Spiritual Father, has always lived, and has always been eternal. Therefore, the Son who was always in the Father, is therefore, also eternal.
Can Jesus be both? Yes, the scriptures say so. Ray says, we just have to believe the scriptures. This is very deep, but I believe that God wants us to know the deep things of God.
In Him,
Dwight
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Hey Darren,
I think I see what you are saying now!
I will quote you....."That God, created Christ (Jehovah) is a given, but there is no Scriptural proof to my knowledge that ever states when. We simply do not know; however, the Scriptures do say on this matter:"
There is no scriptural proof of when God created His Son and I'm not saying that there is.
We do not know what happened before Genesis 1:1, but I believe that Christ was created and not infinite as the Father is.
God could have created Him right before the creation as we know it, or it could have been way before. From my understanding, time has no relevance in the spiritual realm.
I believe that when the holy scriptures talk about the beginning, I always equate it to the start of Genesis. I will post some of the scriptures you use....
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (of creation=Gen 1:1) and the ending (when death is destroyed, Christ is in subjection to God and God is all in all), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning (of creation) was the Word, and the Word was with God (with God, pre-existing but not eternal/infinite), and the Word was God. (My father and I are one)
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning (of the creation) with God.
(((((((((("So if the begining means of all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers (Col 1:16)" Then this surely means that: "Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation" )))))))))))
This only means that we don't know when Christ was created, but He wasn't eternal with the Father. Anything that comes out of something is not eternal, but something that has a beginning. When exactly that beginning was.......maybe we will find out when we are given spiritual immortality!
I'm not trying to debate.....and I hope I don't come off harsh and cold.
In Christ,
Alan
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I don't think that a belief that Christ was not "created" in any way would be synonimous with a belief in the "holy trinity" as it is taught in mainstream Christiandom.
Let's go to the scriptures:
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.
The KJV renders it "worshipped and served the creature." This verse is a clear admonition against the worship of anything or anyone that has been created. And yet we know the scriptures also say:
Matthew 28
9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
Hebrews 1
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him."
Romans 8 also presents a problem for us if we believe that Christ is a part of creation.
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I just don't believe we can do justice to the scriptures or to Christ by calling Him a creature.
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Joey, for all its worth, I agree with your last statement 100% :)
I believe that as God the Father is eternal, so too is the Son.
Love,
Darren
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Alan wrote:
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (of creation=Gen 1:1) and the ending (when death is destroyed, Christ is in subjection to God and God is all in all), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Ah....Alan now I see where you and I differ in our reasoning.
I do not believe that the beginning refers to creation and neither do I agree that the end is when death is destroyed. Rather I believe that both God and Christ always were, are, and always will be, that they both are the Alpha and the Omega. Have you noticed that it is Jesus is referring to himself as the "Almighty?".
Does that make sense?
Love,
Darren
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Joey, for all its worth, I agree with your last statement 100% :)
I believe that as God the Father is eternal, so too is the Son.
Love,
Darren
Hi Darren. Here's another thing to consider. That is the concept of time. When exactly did eternity mesh into time? Or more precisely, when did God create time? Christ would have had to have existed before the existence of time, because time was created. And we know that all things (including time) were created through Christ.
In other words, how could the first 3 "days" spoken of in Genesis be literal days as we understand them in our concept of time? Notice that the sun was not even created until the fourth day. And we know that a ''day'' is constituted by the earth making a complete rotation, facing and turning away from the sun.
So, if Christ was already in or with God before time, and before all creation, how does that relate to the concept of eternity? I don't claim to have all understanding on this complex issue, but I also think the scriptures are clear that Christ is not a part of "creation," or at least, not a part of the creation which is subjected to the bondage of decay. :)
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Joey,
I understand exactly what you are saying. Even the concept of the speed of light (Light yrs) is solely reliant on our measurement of time and that is how long the Earth takes to rotate on its axis. When one begins to consider that many scientists believe that could be as many as 100 billion galaxies, our concept of time seems puny indeed. :)
But here is where it get's tricky, regardless of the measurement scale used, there has to be a then, is and future. Which fits with Christs own words:
Rev 1:8 ".....saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
It is my understanding that the "is" begins on the fourth "day" of creation.
Another thing that we must never forget, and that is how many God "days'' were there before the first day of creation? I think this is where the concept of eternity begins, because there is no way of measuring or even comprehending?
Fascinating don't you think? :)
Adds a whole new perspective to the following:
Rom1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
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Great post Joey,
Love,
Darren
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think what you're saying is that Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, just as Eve was begotten of father Adam from his heart.
Now Adam wasn't a begotten Son but a made son. Genesis 2:7 says - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (THE SPIRIT); and man became a living soul. It's almost like Pinnochio.
Anyway, Jesus didn't come in this way. He did not come out of the dust to get into physical creation. He was begotten of THE FATHER or He was the Begotten of THE FATHER as Eve was of Adam. John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom (THE RIB TAKEN AWAY) of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 Corinthians 15:45-46 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. This is why i'm beginning to believe that Adam was made to fall.
Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
IN HIS LOVE,
Bradford
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1Tim 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies,
which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
I could not see clearly on this topic so I decided to call Ray, this is a scripture he gave concerning this discussion. Endless genealogies has a spiritual meaning, speculation, and that we should not do it..
I have read through this thread and the brief conversation I had with Ray about this subject, leads me to say that Alan has got this right, thanks Alan. Christ was created and His coming out of God does not change that or make Him eternal.
So as Ray said, I do not want to speculate on anything else concerning this topic :)
Bradigans, here is what Ray has to say about the idea that Adam was made to fall.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html -------------------------------------------------
THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’
Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man’s fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat! May God be with you and continue to open your eyes to see more clearly. :-*
And thank you Ray! May God be with you and bless you.
Peace and Love,
Iris
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Kat, my dear sister :)
Thanks again for pointing us in the right direction. I believe I was not seeing Alan's real point.
So I decided to research the word "Eternal" and this is what I found: :)
Eternal (aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}) [Strongs 166]
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
So you are of course perfectly right. :) It matters not when Christ came out of the Father; rather, that he did. Therefore, Christ did have a beginning and thus can never be classified as eternal in the complete sense, becasue he is is not "without beginning."
Thanks for contacting Ray and giving us his feedback in a loving matter. :)
Brother Love in Christ,
Darren
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Thanks kat,
It's good to have a clarification because it was getting a little bit out of hand.
God bless,
Dwight
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To All,
Christ had a beginning????? Wow, this is getting deep. If there are resouces that go into this more deeply in Ray's papers, please by all means post them. I am thouroughly confused. I thought that Christ said he was the beginning and the end, and to meet those fufillments you would have to be outside of time. If he had a beginning was he in time or something else.
I was understanding this thread, until this came up. Please help, I am a little lost.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hi Anne,
Here is a section I took out of the Trinity paper. I think this might help you :)
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------------------------------
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
Notice that the holy spirit is NO PART of this analogy. Now seriously, if the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why does it have NO PART in so many dozens and dozens of Scriptures like this one? Surely if there is a trinity, the holy spirit could represent maybe the soil, or the sunshine, or the rain, or at least be some part of this analogy with the Father, the Son, and the Saints, don’t you think? But no! The holy spirit is not mentioned. That is because it is not necessary for it to be mentioned, and also because it is not a third god of a trinity.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hello Kat
Thanks for the direction....it got me thinking ....again...
Kat Ray says pay attention to the WORDS.
He said : Christ was created and His coming out of God does not change that or make Him eternal.
i know by now that Ray does not say things superficially. As i understood and really looked closely at what Ray says I see this. Please correct me if I am wrong. Ray said about Christ....as I see it and maybe not as Ray means it.....help me here please...
…His coming OUT OF GOD does not change that ( He CAME OUT OF GOD) or that HE came out of God does not make Him eternal.
Now that would be the same for us too wouldn't it! Our coming out of Babylon doesn’t make us elect. Our being faithful to God and to the end ~Does~ !
Our being "called" does not make us "chosen"….our being chosen makes us chosen!
That Christ died as the sin offering, completed the work His Father sent Him to do. THEN....
Heb 5 : 10 Being designated and recognized and saluted by God as high Priest after the order with the rank of Melchizedek.
Can this relate to once resurrected the Elect too will share in the inheritance of Chirst in this Priesthood of Christ.
On a lighter note :)
I found out that elect is short for electric….this Forum is an electric place. :D ;D
Thanks for any more insights and direction Kat.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Kat,
That was very helpful, I will have to go and read that paper fully. There's just so much wealth of Truth to read from, and it is spread before me like a banquet table, and it is hard to choose which to read first, becuase they are so fufuilling and rewarding to read.
Arcturus,
That is an interesting parrarell for sure. I am very interested in what Kat has to say. Yes this forum is quite electric. Good pun. Kudos to you. I love puns keep them coming, those bring little patches of sunshine into my life each day.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
P.S. - If I have hijacked this thread, please let me know, and I can start an appropraite thread.
ACM
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Anne asked:
Christ had a beginning?? Wow, this is getting deep. If there are resouces that go into this more deeply in Ray's papers, please by all means post them. I am thouroughly confused. I thought that Christ said he was the beginning and the end, and to meet those fufillments you would have to be outside of time. If he had a beginning was he in time or something else.
I was understanding this thread, until this came up. Please help, I am a little lost.
Anne, there has been much truth uncovered here. I to held that Christs words in Rev 1:8 spoke of him being the beginning and the ending. :)
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Actually, haven given this some thought, I believe now that what Christ was speaking for his Father, not of himself. Here is my reason:
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
If they are one in everything except their being, then surely Christ can speak for His Father.
There is also a verse in Isaiah that might shed some light on this:
Isa 41:4 - Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I [Jehova], the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
We know from Rays studies that Christ of the NT was Jehovah of the OT. So let's pay particular attention to what is being said here. :)
Jehovah say's they he was the first born of all creation
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
However, the word creature is not exactly correct ion this instance. The word used is ktisis and its first meaning is "Creation"
Creature ktisis {ktis'-is} [2937]
1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created
1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
Are you still with me? :)
The words "and with the last" cannot mean that he "IS" the last. By his own words, he is with the "last," for we know that God the Father is the one and only Alpha and Omega! :)
I hope that helps a little,
Brotherly Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Arcturus,
All things come from God, even the earth came from God, and it is not eternal, but physical.
Psa 90:2 Before, the mountains, were born, Or thou hadst brought forth the earth and the world, Even, from age to age, thou, wast GOD. (Rotherham)
Can this relate to once resurrected the Elect too will share in the inheritance of Chirst in this Priesthood of Christ.
That sounds like what these scripture say.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
"Electric forum, that is good :)
Hi Darren,
I believe in Col. 1:15-20 this is speaking about the creation and not eternity.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent.
v. 19 For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
v. 20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.
The creation was made through Christ and for Him, v.16.
"He is before all things," in the creation, v. 17
"He is the beginning," of the creation, "that is everything He might be preeminent," v.18
And it will be "through Him" that the whole creation will be reconciled, v. 20
It just seems to me that where Christ is concerned it involves the creation. He was brought forth of the Father to bring about the creation, to be God over it and to substain it. It's contrary to God's ways now (Rom 8:7), Christ will bring all the creation to sudjection to the Father and He will turn it all over to the Father in the end, so "God may be all things in all." The Father is supreme (John 10:29) and all this done totally by the Father's will.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
Where the scripture speak of eternity, that is not translation correctly and is referring to a period or age of the creation. Ray has an article on this - Is "Everlasting" Scriptural?
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
So becuase Christ was the first of creation, did he have a beginning? I don't want to pigeon-hole you here. Your post did shed some light, but left me a little more confused.
Darren,
I will respond to your post, when I have the time and have read up on this so that I can at least clear some confusion away. Your post did help. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Kat wrote:
It just seems to me that where Christ is concerned it involves the creation. He was created by the Father to bring about the creation, to substain it, and to bring all the creation to sudjection to the Father. He will turn it all over to the Father in the end, so "God may be all things in all," all this done totally by the Father's will.
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Hi Kat,
Thanks so much for sharing your view. :)
I do have a bit of a problem with something you wrote: He was created by the Father to bring about the creation, to substain it, and to bring all the creation to sudjection to the Father.
Is there any Scriptual proof on this? I personally am not comfortable with this because of the words of John :)
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You could of course argue that this makes perfect sense, because God spoke (through Chriist - the Word) and creation began.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
This sounds pretty logical, but I feel there is an inherant danger in this thinking because of the preceding verse:
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
It seems to me with the inclusion of Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
What do you see? :) I see the three elements of the so called Trinity, all wrapped up in a pretty bow :)
Kat, please let me offer an alternative view. What if it happened like this.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
They are so alike that they are an exact replica of each other. The only difference being that out of the Father, came the Son. Equal in all aspects except Christ is the Son.
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Does "Greater" mean more powerful or of greater stature or perhaps greater due the Sons repect for His Father?
So let us no return to Genesis. :)
Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Okay so who "created?" It was Christ, because:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
But there is a limit to what Christ did Create , those being the Heaven and the Earth (Gen 1:1) and all things in them Col 1:16)
Paul says something similar in his letter to the Romans:
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world kosmos {kos'-mos} [2889] (Universe) are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Do you see the difference between "created the heaven and the earth" of Genesis and the words of Paul "the creation of the universe'
The begiining as recorded in the Bible does not cover the creation of the universe, galaxies, soloar systems or planets. The matter was already in place albeit with out form. :)
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
So how did matter that Christ formed to create the Earth come to be? Where did the universe come from? :)
We must not assume that the first time God spoke was during the creation/formation of the Earth.
It would seem that God would have been doing a lot of speaking through Christ prior to Gen 1:1.
Kat my Dear Sister, please do not take offense to this, I am purely speculating as were you. :)
I believe that this is all irrevelant and has no baring on what we need to know, for we want not to lose sight of the Truth as it is recorded for our instruction.
I promise no offense was taken just as it is my intention to offend no one. :)
Brotherly Love in Christ,
Darren
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He said : Christ was created and His coming out of God does not change that or make Him eternal.
Okay, just one question. Is God's Spirit eternal? The rib removed symbolizes...
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It would not be wise for me to try an answer all these question :)
I have only a simple understanding from what Ray said.
I would suggest to email him,
he will read it and answer it, and sometimes it 's not that long before he answers.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat