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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 01:33:06 PM

Title: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 01:33:06 PM
For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, IS FROM THE LORD" (Prov. 16:1). [Regardless of the proper translation of the first half of this verse, the second half is emphatically] "…FROM THE LORD."

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 I've been visiting another forum the last few days, and found it to be very humbling. I got involved in several topics. This forum had believers, and those that don't believe in God at all. Some that have read Rays writings. Anyway, I learned some things about myself. The topic I got more involved in was a discussion about responsible and accountable.I found out that I couldn't explain it at all because I myself still struggle with it. I think that I so much want to that I just except it rather than understanding it. There are times that I just say its one of those things that God just doesn't want me to know, and then as I was re-reading Free Will part 2, I think; I came across the verses above quoted from that series. It seems that these verses nurtures my not understanding even more than before, but on the other hand it seems to put me at the edge of something even bigger, such as a treasure I've been digging for that I thought was in a large chest, but as it turns out for me that this gem might very well be in a small chest in a big field, but a large treasure; if that makes sense to anyone. Well anyway; back to the verses above, and responsible vs. accountability. Doesn't both words mean the same? Since our steps are led by God, then where do we get lust of the heart such as any carnal thought or action or words that we speak. Ray says that we of our own have lust of the heart, but where does that come from since it is God that directs our steps, even this posting I'm doing now, and how am I to understand my own way?
  Pastors mislead the flock and the flock follows; all steps directed by God, and they understand not. Isn't trying to expose those that contradict, actually exposing that God is the one in charge of what they are doing? According to the verses above, they don't understand because God is leading their steps, and at the same time leading the steps of those that want to expose them? Is this correct? Am I right or wrong to think that no one can be led astray by man unless that's the steps  God wants them to take?
  There are times when I'm having thoughts that are very carnal or some sort of action or words that lead me to ask God why am I doing this, or having these thoughts that I can't get rid of. Last night my wife and I was watching a TV serious that has a Gay person on it. He is more feminine than a woman; well I made a comment to Silvia that the least he could do is at least act like a man. This guy literally annoys me to no end, but I don't want to think and feel like that toward anyone.I want to understand, and not judge people like that. Well it was this morning that I found the verses above, and they explained that he can't help the way he is and acts no more than the things that I think and do. Is this not correct? I also want to be in Spirit all the time, and see things, and understand in Spirit, but I come nowhere close, no matter how much I want it.
 Can someone explain the difference between responsible and accountable, and why does God, who is responsible for all things including our steps, hold us accountable and punish, or correct which ever is the right word when we are doing what he directs us to do?
 I went to a forum of which I have avoided all forums except for this one, because I thought I could be misled into some other belief, but I was wrong to think anyone can mislead me or lead me in the right direction unless that is the step God wants me to take. Isn't that what the verses above are saying?
 I can understand being submitted to vanity to humble us and teach us as we are being transformed. Is it that I'm seeing accountability as punishment rather than correction or transformation?

Peace
Roy
  
  
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Marky Mark on December 24, 2009, 02:11:15 PM
Roy. Hope this helps some. :)

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

God "created evil" (Isa. 45:7). God does not create things that do not serve a good purpose. By the way, the word translated into "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra, and it is the very same word translated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times as "evil" throughout the Old Testament.

Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN.’ God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part, this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable), but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by Sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ:
v
v
We have seen that not even Satan can go against God’s intentions. Satan needs permission from God to do his dirty work. Since God is responsible (but not accountable—seeing that nothing He does is without a great and beneficial purpose), God takes responsibility for His whole creation, and that is why everything will turn out perfect for every one of God’s creatures.


http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray




Peace...Mark


Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: soberxp on December 24, 2009, 02:36:37 PM
ROY


Matthew 7:
1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.   
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 
 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 
 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.   
Quote
AS we know the Genesis , before Adam n Eve eaten forbidden fruit , they just didn't know what's the knowledge of good and evil, can you think of that ,MAT5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

 figuratively ???6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.   ??? figuratively
"dogs n pigs "  refers to unbeliever  ???

ASK SEEK KNOCK
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 
8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 
9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 


 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.  
easy for understanding, if I don't like people tell me :"I don't believe in God at all ." it means I hope that people tells me:"I believe in God." so forget about everything,I just need to say:"I believe in God."


THE NARROW AND WIDE GATES
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 
 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 03:07:43 PM
Hi Mark, Thats some good stuff.
 So God basically makes us weak and dirty, since we can do nothing of our own even sin which isn't evil, but yet is part of evil. I mean how can we have one without the other, or separate them into two different meanings, or is it like the structure of a house or vessel that has other components that makes it a house or vessel. Vanity consist of several things. We can't have vanity without evil and sin or lust of the heart, and even the unbeliever who's steps also are directed by God according to scripture. If God didn't create sin, then who did? We can't create anything in ourselves nor change ourselves from one vessel to another. Is there a scripture that says we are accountable, or that we of our own have lust of the heart and act on them?

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 03:11:27 PM
Hi Soberxp,

O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 Soberxp, its all just a part of learning and growing, don't you think?

Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: soberxp on December 24, 2009, 04:28:00 PM
Hi Soberxp,

O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 Soberxp, its all just a part of learning and growing, don't you think?

Roy

yep,I agree with you n these scripture are right!     how can I understand my own way,no matter which way, I'm choosing to going [steps] are OF THE LORD,   I'm not ‘free’ but free to choice where I will walk, cuz no matter which way I was choosing to going [steps] are OF THE LORD,  life is really and truly a part of learning and growing.

before I knew Jesus n god,   I always have a feeling,some of my thoughts were not from myself.

can you understand my some kind of rap?
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: zvezda on December 24, 2009, 05:28:41 PM
Is there a scripture that says we are accountable

Mat 12:36    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Luke 16:2  And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Pet 4:5  Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


Hope this helps.  :)
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Marky Mark on December 24, 2009, 05:56:32 PM
Hi Mark, Thats some good stuff.
 So God basically makes us weak and dirty, since we can do nothing of our own even sin which isn't evil, but yet is part of evil. I mean how can we have one without the other, or separate them into two different meanings, or is it like the structure of a house or vessel that has other components that makes it a house or vessel. Vanity consist of several things. We can't have vanity without evil and sin or lust of the heart, and even the unbeliever who's steps also are directed by God according to scripture. If God didn't create sin, then who did? We can't create anything in ourselves nor change ourselves from one vessel to another. Is there a scripture that says we are accountable, or that we of our own have lust of the heart and act on them?

Peace
Roy

Quote
If God didn't create sin, then who did?


Hi Roy.

Sin is the disobedience of God's commandments and a falling short of Gods truths[Spiritual mistakes]. Since man was made exceedingly weak this would lead to a sinful nature,which we all are.All fall short of the glory of God because of our carnal mind.So to me at least, sin originates in the heart and mind so as to be from within us,not from God.Remember we do get to make choices in life and God wants us to choose,but how we choose is what separates right from wrong.

A few email replies from Ray.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2302.0.html

> Hi L. Ray,
>
> One question? Only one. Very simple. If God controls everything,
> then what is sin?
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> Chad


Dear Chad:

Sin is sin regardless of whether "God controls everything," or God

controls nothing.  Sin is lawlessness, missing the mark, coming short

of the glory of God, etc.  God never ever does any of these things. Men

do. God made men so that they would "miss the mark," "fall short," and

be "lawless."  It is not a sin for God to have made man so weak as to

prevent him from having the power to resist sin. There is a great purpose

for God creating man so that he cannot overcome the lusts of his carnal

weak mind, which God created. For the details, read the rest of our site.

God be with you,

Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1189.0.html

Dear Reader:
I explained all this in great detail in my series on "The Myth of Free Will Exposed."
God forgives because you and I have been guilty of voluntarily sinning from our hearts, and this is wrong.  God gives us an experience of "evil"--things that are wrong (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Literal New Testament), so that we will learn and desire to do what is RIGHT.  This spiritual truth is entirely too high for the carnal mind to comprehend.
God be with you,
Ray



Quote
Is there a scripture that says we are accountable


ISV
Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says applies to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

2Co 2:17  At least we are not commercializing God's word like so many others. Instead, in Christ we speak with sincerity, like people who are sent from God and are accountable to God.

GW
Mat 23:35  As a result, you will be held accountable for all the innocent blood of those murdered on earth, from the murder of righteous Abel to that of Zechariah, son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36  I can guarantee this truth: The people living now will be held accountable for all these things. 

Darby
1Sa 22:22  And David said to Abiathar, I knew it that day, when Doeg the Edomite was there, that he would certainly tell Saul: I am accountable for all the lives of thy father's house.

ESV
Jas 2:10  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
 
WNT
Mat 12:36  But I tell you that for every careless word that men shall speak they will be held accountable on the day of Judgement.  


Hope this helps.



Peace...Mark



Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 06:13:20 PM
Is there a scripture that says we are accountable

Mat 12:36    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Luke 16:2  And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Pet 4:5  Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


Hope this helps.  :)

Thank you Zvezda, and also,
  Some how I forgot that the OT is packed with stories of God holding people accountable by punishing them in all kinds of ways; plaques, famine,droughts, death; to even children because of their parents sin. Wow! just when I thought I was about to get somewhere.
  It definitely takes an act of God to see His love in all of this, and have understanding of it. I can also see why no man dead or alive can prove to someone that God exist and that He loves us. Yes! no doubt that God guides our steps, and this is definitely one topic that I would like to give up on because there just doesn't seem to be an end to it, but that's not going to be the case; I already know.

Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 24, 2009, 06:27:12 PM
Hello Roy

If it is of any consolation, try to think of your choices as your preferences.
The preferences of a person who is pleasing to God, will be to avoid, shun, have nothing to do with and steer clear of evil. This is pleasing to God

1Pe 3:11  Let him turn aside from evil and do good. Let him seek peace and pursue it.
1Pe 3:12  For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears open to their prayers. But the Lord's face is against those who do evil.

The preferences of a person who does not please God will be to be preferring their own god serving self interest  through guile, cunning, crafty, devious deceitful duplicity.
Just ask yourself what you prefer and you will see how God is shaping you to be either a vessel to honor or to dishonor. We can check our own motives but only truly with fear and trembling because it IS God who is working in us according to His Will and Council making us as He pleases. Many are made for His Mercy. Few will receive His reward for being made righteous. Is God wrong to make many fit for His Mercy and only a few for His reward? Of course not. 
Many are called and few are chosen.

 Php 2:12  And so, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I am absent, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13  For it IS God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.

Arc
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 06:35:37 PM
Thanks again Mark for your time.
 Well the one thing I know is I must not be in spirit as Ray says because it's just a bunch of circles to me the more I try to see it.


Dear Chad:

Sin is sin regardless of whether "God controls everything," or God

controls nothing.  Sin is lawlessness, missing the mark, coming short

of the glory of God, etc.  God never ever does any of these things. Men

do. God made men so that they would "miss the mark," "fall short," and

be "lawless."  It is not a sin for God to have made man so weak as to

prevent him from having the power to resist sin. There is a great purpose

for God creating man so that he cannot overcome the lusts of his carnal

weak mind, which God created. For the details, read the rest of our site.

 When I read this I see that God created everything in us. Its like He built a house with a weak structure, all the plumbing and electrical, except the house provides its own water or electricity. This just seems impossible. If you build a car, you put all the parts in it to do the things you want it to do. God made us weak, and carnal, and we had to add other parts of which we know not how or where or when we did it.
  Man oh man I want to see this, but its not going to happen unless God shows it to me, because man isn't coming anywhere close; only more confusing. I'm sorry for bothering anyone or taking your time. This obviously is between God and me.

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 06:41:24 PM
Arcturus, thank you for you reply.
 I know that regardless of my lack of understanding, it will all come out good eventually. As for now I just have to except that God doesn't want me to know what I seek for His own good reason. He has already shown me some wonderful truths and gave me much more understanding than I ever use to have back in Babylon. All in Gods time.
  Thanks everyone.

Roy

  I got everything I read in all of Rays writings, and scriptures, but this one thing has twisted me since I read it. I don't know why it seems so important to me or even matters, but it does, and I can feel it in my heart, and it gnaws at me daily.
 To say that God didn't put everything in us is hard to swallow or even believe. I'm not saying I don't believe; its just hard to believe.
 Insert Quote
For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, IS FROM THE LORD" (Prov. 16:1). [Regardless of the proper translation of the first half of this verse, the second half is emphatically] "…FROM THE LORD."

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 These scriptures makes a lot of sense to me and seems to be where I am right now.
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 24, 2009, 07:33:56 PM
Roy

Only God can give you the desire to understand Him, and only He can fulfil that desire.

God is entirely responsible. As for making us accountable if God did not make us accountable, we could never know or come to experience our deep need for His Mercy and we could never comprehend our dependence on Him for His fathomless Love.
 
Arc
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Kat on December 24, 2009, 07:37:26 PM

Hi Roy,

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

If God knows the "the end" then He knows everything that will happen in between from beginning to end.  That is why God is sovereign, He is the all powerful Being that is now and will always be sustaining all of this.  Now He created all the physical things that we have, so that we can have this experience of life.  As we go through this life each and every one of us have a unique experience and yes it is all caused by God (He is sustaining it all), to make us into individual beings.  Now some might say then we are just robots, I think not, since we live out all the things we think, say and do, with all the emotions involved, this is creating a personality unique to each individual.  Ultimately He will finish His work in us to have a big family of all these varied individual that can communicate with each other, go about experiencing different things with all these different people.  Then throw in the angels and we have a whole other experience too.  I can just imagine this going on without end and never getting bored with it.  

That is just my simple way of looking at this, maybe it will help you a bit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 08:00:10 PM
 Kat, that's exactly how I'm thinking I should look at it too; that all is of God, everything, not just parts of this and that which is just too hard to swallow.
The point is we can't have one without the other, and it all comes from God. He said He created all things and saw that it was good. I'm sticking with that for now.
 Thank you. Yes it helped me very much.


Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Dave in Tenn on December 24, 2009, 08:45:15 PM
The only thing He didn't say was 'good' was man.  He, collectively, is a work is progress.  Individually, he is a brand new creation and also a work in progress.

This is a hard pill to swallow at first.  We're not usually raised to 'blame' God, and it feels like such a failing and so blasphemous to say that God is responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.  Yet, we are happy to acknowledge that God is responsible for our redemption, and for conforming us to the image of Christ.  Evil had/has to happen for those things to be fulfilled too. 

Without the first part of our lives (where we are subject to the rule of sin and death) there can't be a 'rest of the story' in ressurection/being raised to newness of life (where we are subject to the rule of Christ).  He didn't come to call the righteous to repentance.  He also is not currently calling those with no 'ear' for repentance.  That's two reasons why the way is so narrow.   :)           
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Marky Mark on December 24, 2009, 09:01:57 PM
I think God lets conditions exist in the world that give meaning to the word sin. Why can't God create whatever He deems necessary in order to have a family of righteous sons and daughters? Just because sin exists does not mean that God puts sin in our hearts to commit. We know that God is Holy and that humanity is not.God cannot sin but He can and has created evil conditions so that sin can ultimately flourish. Satan comes to mind as one of His creations that was created for the explicit purpose to deceive and make mankind fall short[sin] of Gods glory.You would have to ask yourself if God created evil does that mean that He is evil? The carnal nature of mans heart is what commits sin because it was by design to facilitate an end purpose. Just because the Creator creates does not mean that he is being sinful in His creation.The evil choices that we commit are the reasons that sin exist. Remember God is Perfect and Perfection does not make mistakes[sin].

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.



Peace...Mark
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 09:21:29 PM
Hi Dave, when I first realized that God was responsible, I had such a good feeling, and the burden became so much lighter. I accepted it with arms wide open, and still do.
  I can also see that He isn't calling those that don't have an ear for repentance. I never know that this isn't happening when someone is questioning me about God. I remember when I didn't believe in God and would argue with believers and question them. Most of them were kind and polite, and little did I know that God was planting His seed in me that took many years to sprout. At the time, nothing could convince me of a loving God. The whole time I was denying that God didn't exist nor thinking I would ever be repenting while I'm talking to believers, God was calling me, but I didn't have the slightest clue it was happening. I'm not disagreeing with your statement, just adding to it. Hope you don't mind.

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 24, 2009, 09:41:56 PM
I think God lets conditions exist in the world that give meaning to the word sin. Why can't God create whatever He deems necessary in order to have a family of righteous sons and daughters? Just because sin exists does not mean that God puts sin in our hearts to commit. We know that God is Holy and that humanity is not.God cannot sin but He can and has created evil conditions so that sin can ultimately flourish. Satan comes to mind as one of His creations that was created for the explicit purpose to deceive and make mankind fall short[sin] of Gods glory.You would have to ask yourself if God created evil does that mean that He is evil? The carnal nature of mans heart is what commits sin because it was by design to facilitate an end purpose. Just because the Creator creates does not mean that he is being sinful in His creation.The evil choices that we commit are the reasons that sin exist. Remember God is Perfect and Perfection does not make mistakes[sin].

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.



Peace...Mark

Of course Mark, I agree. I'm to that point that I except that God created everything. God might not make us sin Himself, nor tempt us, nor is He evil or ever sinned or ever made a mistake, but He did create everything and gave life to everything. He built vessels  with everything it takes to do his will and purpose. He doesn't tempt us, but He sends Satan to do it. This doesn't interest me much right now as to why it's this way with Satan doing the tempting. God knows what Hes doing. Its me that doesn't know most of the time what I'm doing. Someone put all the ingredient's in me that causes me to sin. If I did it then I should be able to take it away, but I can't, but I do pray daily asking God to give me a new heart and change me.

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Marky Mark on December 25, 2009, 12:50:40 PM
Quote
Someone put all the ingredient's in me that causes me to sin. If I did it then I should be able to take it away, but I can't, but I do pray daily asking God to give me a new heart and change me.


Roy,that someone is you. As a infant you did not learn of things until you were introduced to them. As you grew up and experienced the things of this world, that is when you had to make your own choices that would ultimately affect who and what you are or become.We all are accountable for the decisions that we make and our sweet Father knows this,because that is His way of doing it. Amen.
 
I look at this life that we live in of the flesh as no more than a proving ground for our eventual Spiritual conversion.God is the One who will bring all in line with what He needs to do in order to complete in His work,not only in this world, but more importantly, in the Spirit.The Fathers works in you will be how all come to the point of righteousness so as to become perfect children of The Most High. There is absolutely no way that we of ourselves can do the works which need to be done in ourselves,this can only come from God.

Pray to God and ask for what you seek with a earnest and loving heart and I can say with confidence that he will answer your prayers because of the works that He has already started in you. He will finish them,rest assured. All is of Him and for Him and to me that is reason enough to worship and rely on Him, and not of myself. My prayer for you Roy is that our Father in heaven gives you the patience and knowledge to come to an understanding of who and what He is and why we have to go through the things of this world in order that His plans of perfection can come to bloom.


All Praise and Glory to The Most High.


Peace...Mark
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: 9440geoff on December 25, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Hi Roy,

This is an excellent thread so thanks for starting it. With so many excellent answers I'm reluctant to try to add anything. However, the following has helped me to understand sin a little better.

In French the verb 'to lust' and the verb 'to covet' is the same, i.e. 'convoiter'.
The noun 'convoitise' means 'greed ', 'lust', or 'covetousness'.

Ray has said of Eve  
Quote
It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

So our sin comes from covetousness, wanting something that is,not ours, or that we should not be desiring.

 But that is the way God has made us, and perhaps if He hadn't made us that way, we would not have the capacity to want Him more than anything else in the world.

Geoff
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: soberxp on December 25, 2009, 04:13:45 PM


So our sin comes from covetousness, wanting something that is,not ours, or that we should not be desiring.

 But that is the way God has made us, and perhaps if He hadn't made us that way, we would not have the capacity to want Him more than anything else in the world.

Geoff

good point.

Adam n Eve ,they didn't know good n evil ,they must pure in heart,except GOD has told them never eat forbidden fruit,but never told why.P.S when you eat of it you will surely die. why ???
Did Eve ever think "why" n "then what"?or Did she have ALREADY sinned by think of "why".I dunno.
but I know that Eve didn't know the serpent is evil,they are too pure to discriminate good from bad ones.
How do you know good n evil n what's means die ,when you didnt know good n evil n what's means die.even god told them:"GEN 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." "they didnt know good n evil n what's means die!!!!!!

is this a hard one to understand the logic?

here is another hard one .
GEN 2:9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  

trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.   In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 26, 2009, 09:29:13 AM
Thank you Geoff,
 I've been trying to come up with an analogy that will put this into perceptive for me, and just can't seem to come up with one that fits. I have read, and am still re-reading Myth Of  Freewill over and over. I read all the things we can't do of our own; not even a single thought, and I believe all of it about freewill. The proof is undeniable. The answer seems to be in this weak heart we have. I ask myself, what is in a weak heart? This is where covetousness comes from. This is where all the bad things come from. Sin is in there.God gave us this weak heart. It was in Eve, but apparently she didn't know, and then comes Satan sent by God to make it sprout or surface so to speak.
 I know that God knows what Hes doing, and its all good. I know that I'm here right now communicating with all of you because of God, even my thoughts on this topic are not of my own; the hunger to understand everything about this topic, not just most of it, but all of it. I also have thoughts that wants to just shut it down and not give it any more thought as Silvia suggested I do.
 I think and feel I have my answer, but all of the replies and comments gives me more food to chew on that opens doors to other areas of thought that all seems to tie in to this circle that leads to something in the middle of this circle that contains the treasure with more than I was looking for, you know, like an extra bonus kind of thing. Its all about understanding that will stick, that I can cling to, that doesn't slip through my hands like sand, having to keep picking it up over and over.
  I want to be like all of you that say you have it and understand it. Some of you say you still struggle with it from time to time. Well I want it super glued to my heart with complete understanding.

Love to All
   Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Kat on December 26, 2009, 01:33:37 PM

Hi Roy,

I found these emails, each one has an aspect that needs to be understood, that should give you a little more to chew on.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9822.0 -----------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ------------------------------

Unfortunately, we can not often learn the meaning of Scriptures from Strong's Lexicon. We learn from God by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, and only then by the inspiration of His Spirit.

And like many Scriptures in God's Word, the Christian World understand little about spiritual things.  Furthermore, when the Scriptures suggest that God is and will be triumphant and victorious over ALL ENEMIES, the theologians of this world are quick to reel God in and diminish often to ought the grand declarations of God and His accomplishments and blessings. Witness their turning I Tim. 2:4,

"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the TRUTH,"

into an unattainable "WEAK WISH."

Now then, just how did Jesus, "lead captivity captive" (Eph. 4:08)?

This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18.  After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."

There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8.  Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse:  "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind."  So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.

Now Strong's is correct in that "captivity" does, make captive, take captive or captures. And those who ARE made captive, taken captive, or captured, are called "CAPTIVES."  Hope I didn't loose you yet.

And so "captivity" is the instrumentality that brings about "captured captives," if you will.  God is here labeling all the evils of the world under the one word "captivity." There is a new spiritual law mentioned under the New Covenant called "The Law of Liberty" (James 1:25).  Notice that while the "false prophets" of II Pet. 2:1, "...promise them LIBERTY, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the SAME  is he brought IN BONDAGE" (Verse 20). Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leads into captivity shall GO into captivity...."

Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES.  Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL.  Just how did He do this?  (1) "He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship!   "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)?

The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish?   EVERYTHING!  John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF!  And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!

And of the immediate gifts Christ gave, we read:

"And he gave some apostles and some, prophets; and some , evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the PERFECTING [MATURING] of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

And finally this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the [spiritually] blind, to set at LIBERTY them that are bruised [crushed by the burden of this world, which Christ OVERCAME], To preach the acceptable year of the Lord ... And He [Jesus] began to say unto them, 'THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS" Luke 4:18-19 & 21).

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation -----

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?

After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."

Then James comes along and says

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MAN." (James 1:13).

And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to

"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!

What is going on here?

Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.

First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."

"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food,  and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).

"...when YOU  FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray

Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 27, 2009, 06:38:32 AM
Until I found that word PREFERENCES that Ray introduced into one of his teachings on this subject of free-will, I too was going around in circles, sensing something bigger that I was not grasping.

What we PREFER reflects our spiritual condition.
 
We begin in spiritual weakness.

 Rom 8:20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to VANITY
2Pe 2:18  For when they speak great swelling words of VANITY, they lure through the lusts of the flesh, by unbridled lust, the ones who were escaping from those who live in error;

See what Kat has brought for consideration in Rays teachings quote....
We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"—
Who puts us IN IT? God does! If God INTENDS anything then it is going to be exactly what God intends. No weak wishes or wiggle room out of it either!

Our preferences begin with us wanting to get into trouble. We like to get in and out of trouble. We enjoy it! We start life as “automatic sinning machines” L Ray Smith.
God changes us through our circumstances and through His goodness He brings us to repentance for enjoying evil. We go from automatic sinning machines to deliberate children conformed by God into HIS image. How does God conform us? Through trials and tribulations, through judgment and Grace, through the Goodness of God.

Isa 29:24  Those who erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and those who murmured shall learn doctrine.

Arc
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: G. Driggs on December 27, 2009, 01:58:52 PM


And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray



This is very encouraging! It really explains a lot going on right now. Never really understood this, until now. Was beginning to get a bit weary of all the trials lately, but now that I understand God intends it to be this way, it gives me a little more faith and courage to face each day. I really thought I was doing something wrong, or maybe there were so many things tempting and trying me that there was something I was not doing right. Considered giving up a few times, but God had different plans. These trials are so strong, but thank God Jesus overcame, so in turn we could overcome also.

Does this verse have anything to do with what Ray is talking about? If so, then it makes a lot more sense.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Thank you all and thank God for such a good topic.

G. Driggs
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on December 27, 2009, 05:41:37 PM
Thank all of you for responding to this thread of which has been very beneficial to my understanding. I hope that it has helped others as well. I realize this topic has been brought up many times, but its still all good to me. Thank you and God bless.

Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 28, 2009, 05:01:27 AM
Hello G Driggs

Yes that has everything to do with it :D

Here are some witnesses to the Scriptures you have posted.

Luk 22:28  YOU are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 8)

2Th 1:4  so much so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations which you endure.

Act 14:22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Roy
Quote
I realize this topic has been brought up many times….

Those of us who love the Word of God should never tire of speaking about Him even if the same question appears OVER AND OVER AGAIN!. :)
 
Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
Rom 11:35  Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?
Rom 11:36  For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen.

Arc
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: LiberatedEagle on December 28, 2009, 02:49:10 PM
Glory be to God for this thread.

Prior to reading this thread I sent a pm to one of the mods regarding the same subject of accountability. It gives me peace to know that I'm not the only one wrestling with this subject. Roy, you relayed my thoughts precisely. Waiting, hoping, believing and trusting to be converted into a child of God is so hard when you are constantly committing sin everyday. Sometimes I wrestle with the thought of being a vessel of dishonor, but then I consider the truths God has revealed to me here. Would God reveal these truths to me and I understand and receive them, but still not be a vessel for Him? Am I in err to think it impossible for God's chosen to reject Him and not become a saint in the Kingdom of God?



Charles

P.S. Thanks Roy for posting what God laid on your heart    
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: aqrinc on December 28, 2009, 09:59:03 PM

When we get right down to where the rubber meets the Faith, we are all in error. Humanity thinks we know what we need to fix us (human wisdom). GOD Says the (human wisdom) of this entire world is Foolishness to Him, yet we persist in our wise choices of what we think GOD can or cannot do. When in doubt, check this out, go find the Scripture that addresses the doubt then eat it up (not literally) but in a symbolic way.

One thing to note; humanity is not the object of GOD'S Displeasure and to be destroyed, but the things we are subject to are. First though; we are going through this life to learn about those things and how to deal with them like Jesus Christ Has Done.

Isa 29:16 (ASV)
Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?

Isa 29:17-24 (BBE)
17  In a very short time Lebanon will become a fertile field, and the fertile field will seem like a wood.

18  And in that day those whose ears are stopped will be hearing the words of the book; and the eyes of the blind will see through the mist and the dark.

19  And the poor will have their joy in the Lord increased, and those in need will be glad in the Holy One of Israel.

20  For the cruel one has come to nothing; and those who make sport of the Lord are gone; and those who are watching to do evil are cut off:

21  Who give help to a man in a wrong cause, and who put a net for the feet of him who gives decisions in the public place, taking away a man's right without cause.

22  For this reason the Lord, the saviour of Abraham, says about the family of Jacob, Jacob will not now be put to shame, or his face be clouded with fear.

23  But when they, the children of Jacob, see the work of my hands among them, they will give honour to my name; yes, they will give honour to the Holy One of Jacob, and go in fear of the God of Israel.

24  Those whose hearts were turned away from him will get knowledge, and those who made an outcry against him will give attention to his teaching.

To arrive at that verse 24 point here are a few of the things GOD In HIS Wisdom (The Good Wisdom) has set in motion for us.

Ecc 1:13 (CLV)
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom 9:19 (TCNT)
19 Perhaps you will say to me-'How can any one still be blamed? For who withstands his purpose?'
20 I might rather ask 'Who are you who are arguing with God?' Does a thing which a man has molded say to him who has molded it 'Why did you make me like this?'

21 Has not the potter absolute power over his clay, so that out of the same lump he makes one thing for better, and another for common, use?

22 And what if God, intending to reveal his displeasure and make his power known, bore most patiently with the objects of his displeasure, though they were fit only to be destroyed,
23 So as to make known his surpassing glory in dealing with the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared beforehand for glory,
24 And whom he called-even us-Not only from among the Jews but from among the Gentiles also!

25 This, indeed, is what he says in the Book of Hosea-'I will call those my People who were not my People, and her my beloved who was not beloved.

26 And in the very place where it was said to them-"Ye are not my People", they shall be called Sons of the Living God.'


Act 14:19-22 (MKJV)
19 And Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there, who, having persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, they drew him out of the city, supposing him to have died.

20  But the disciples surrounding him, he rose up and came into the city. And the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

21  And preaching the gospel to that city, and having made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and Iconium and Antioch,

22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

george. :)


Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on January 02, 2010, 09:03:26 AM
Thank you George for your time and provided scriptures. Thanks to all of you. Everyone has provided me much to chew on for a much better understanding.

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Ricky on January 02, 2010, 10:07:04 AM
Hi Roy, understanding what the unforgivable sin is, and who commits it, has been made very clear here. I would still have a question though, If ALL, will be saved in the end, how can this sin be unforgivable? it sounds like the people that commit this sin will be forgiven in the end, somehow this does not fit right.  ???
     Bless you all.    Ricky
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Roy Martin on January 02, 2010, 10:13:55 AM
Hi Ricky.
 I wish I could answer your question. I have read the answer somewhere it seems like several times, but its for sure that someone here can and will help you with this.

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Kat on January 02, 2010, 10:53:12 AM



Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Mat 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Though this sounds like a very long time, but it is of limited duration.  We know that there will be no 'eternal' punishment as there was no word for eternal in the Scriptures.  Here is a short excerpt from the letter to Hegee 'The Seven Wonders Of Hell.' 

http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm -----------

There is not one word in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures that can be properly translated "forever" or "eternity," or any other word meaning "endless" time. Some might suggest that a verse such as Rom. 16:26-- " ... the everlasting [Greek: 'aionian'] God" proves that aionian is eternal. It does not. Paul isn't trying to tell us here that God lives "for ever." The Scriptures have long ago told us that God's life has no end (Psalm 102:27). Paul is telling us that God is not off in a corner somewhere unconcerned with mankind, but that He is " ... the eonian God." That is, He is God of the eons in which we live (Rev. 15:8). This does not say God ceases to exist at the end of the eons any more than Christ ceases to exist after He is no longer "King of the eons (Rev. 5:3)."

When there are no more eons, Christ ceases to be the King of the eons (I Cor. 15:24). He certainly doesn't cease to exist. When the eons end (and they all will), then God will be the same God He has always been. It's just that there will be no more eons or ages.

-----------------------------------------------

Eternal was never spoken of, but here are the words "no end" found a couple of times.

Luke 1:33  And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (for the ages/eons), and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Psa 102:27  But You are the same,
       And Your years will have no end.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: mharrell08 on January 02, 2010, 10:57:06 AM
Hi Roy, understanding what the unforgivable sin is, and who commits it, has been made very clear here. I would still have a question though, If ALL, will be saved in the end, how can this sin be unforgivable? it sounds like the people that commit this sin will be forgiven in the end, somehow this does not fit right.  ???
     Bless you all.    Ricky


Ricky,

This sin is said to be unforgiven in this age & the next [Matt 12:32], not forever. This sin is only unforgiven because those that commit such will not repent in this age, God is not calling them.

When God opens our understanding, we repent...it is only God's goodness that leads to our repentance [Rom 2:4].


Marques
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Marky Mark on January 02, 2010, 10:57:38 AM
Hello Ricky.

Here is an email reply from Ray on the question of concern.Something to add to what Kat posted.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3966.0.html

Hello Ray,
        
        I've been looking at the idea of the "unforgivable" sin. I decided to see what you had written on the subject (2 emails that you've placed on your website). Your corrections to the use of "never" made sense, especially in light of the idea of ages, rather than eternal.
        
        But I read what you wrote a couple times and you never really responded to Luke 12:10.
        
        There is no usage of "eternal", "ages", or "never".
        But it does say "not" in a different way then the other scriptures.  
"...but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
        
        The fact that the sentence ends with "shall NOT be forgiven.", without any exceptions or limitations tacked on, seems to leave "not" as a concrete statement. There is no "for", "until", "through", or any other form of conjunction followed by a time frame to indicate an end... I know the other verses can indicate an end, but I don't see that in this one. Your insight?
        
        Thanks.
        Jojo

        
        Dear Jojo:
        I have probably answered this question a hundred times over the years. Not your specific Scripture, but any Scripture that indicates that someone will die in his sins, and not be forgiven, and not be in the kingdom of God, etc.  What amazes me is that I cannot recall one time that anyone has presented this from the positive perspective. That is not one person has ever asked how someone could "NOT be forgiven," when there are dozens of and dozens of Scriptures that show that ALL shall be forgiven and saved. I would venture to say that 90% of all Bible questions that I am asked are concerning negative contradictions, or negative comments that I contradict the Scriptures.
        
First recognize, Jojo, that there is not this one Scripture which suggests that some "shall NOT be forgiven,:" but there are HUNDREDS of such Scriptures:
        
        "...and he that believes not the Son shall NOT see life..." (John 3:36).
        
        "...broad is the way that leads to DESTRUCTION..." (Matt. 7:13).
        
        "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME...." (Matt. 7:23).
        
        "DESTROY Thou them, O God...CAST THEM OUT..." (Psalm 5:10).
        
        "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION...." (I Thes. 1:9).
        
        "Whose END IS DESTRUCTION..." (Phil. 3:19). Etc., etc., etc.
        
        Jojo, "broad is the way to destruction" IN THIS LIFE.  Not one of these verses is
        speaking of the final destiny of sinners. Judgment will save sinners in the resurrection:
        "When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants OF THE WORLD WILL
        LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).  Is God going to eternally destroy and
        not forgive "THE RIGHTEOUS?" This "save in this life ONLY" doctrine of Christendom
        is one of the most damnable doctrines on the face of the earth.
        
        God be with you,
        Ray





Peace...Mark
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Ricky on January 03, 2010, 07:18:02 PM
Marques, Bible says in this age and the coming, they cannot be forgiven. I not sure if I understand it right or not, this age, meaning since the beginning of time or life as we know it ? and then the coming, does this mean the coming of Christ and His 1000 year reign, which would be the next age. And then they would be forgiven. And there would be 1 more age after that? the third age. I have heard somewhere that when God creates anything He does it in 3`s ex. water, air, soil have 3 components each to make them what they are, true or not I do not know. Can you add any info to this. Thanks
                          Bless you all.    Ricky
Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: aqrinc on January 03, 2010, 07:44:39 PM
Hi Ricky,

A few Scriptures that may help to show ages talked about in Scripture.

Mat 12:32 (CLV)
And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

Mat 12:32 (WNT)
And whoever shall speak against the Son of Man may obtain forgiveness; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, neither in this nor in the coming age shall he obtain forgiveness."  

Eph 2:4-9(MKJV)
4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us
5  (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
6  and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
7  so that in the ages to come  He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Heb 13:8 (WNT)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day--yes, and to the ages to come.  

Here is a link to more from Ray on unpardonable Sin:
http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#unpardonable

Any place in Scripture that those things you mentioned in threes? are said to be significant.

george :).

Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Kat on January 03, 2010, 09:31:32 PM

Hi Richy,

Here is an email about how many ages there may be.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1305.0.html -----

The Scriptures speak of "ageS" in the past (Rom. 16:25, II Tim. 1:9, Titus 1:2, ). So that would equal at least 2 or more ages before our present age.

The we have this "present evil age" (II Tim. 4:10, Titus 2:12, etc.)  So that would equal 1 mone age.

Then we have "the on-coming ageS" (Eph. 2:7) and the "conclusion of the ageS" (Heb. 9:26).  (Eph. 2:7). That would equal at least 2 or more future ages.

So now we are already up to a minimum of FIVE AGES.

God be with you,

Ray

Title: Re: Accountable, responsible
Post by: Ricky on January 03, 2010, 11:02:32 PM
Thanyou you all for your replys the more there is the easier it becomes.
         Bless you all.      Ricky