bible-truths.com/forums
=> Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings => Topic started by: Dennis Vogel on January 02, 2007, 12:54:09 PM
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A little mini-article just posted: http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Dennis
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Thanks Dennis for the link. Always good to see new material. I agree with what Ray is saying there but it's no new revelation to me since I already knew and believed that and thought about it and came to the same conclusion.
Although Ray does a much better job of explaining it and backing it up with scripture than I could have. :D
Take care,
Sorin
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Dennis,
Yeah I just read this. I had always known these truths but did not have the Scriputural backing. This has made me feel better. We should not be scared of death. That was the last fear that I had to let go.
Hmmm now if we could work on the fianances.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Ray,
Thanks for putting that into perspective and making it a bit clearer, you articulated that quite well. I love the part that states "God must put us to sleep and set us aside for awhile so that He can work with our children and their children' (paraphrased); that is soooo tender of God to look at 'death' that way. What an AWESOME AND BRILLIANT GOD WHO LITERALLY MADE THE DYING PROCESS TO WHERE WE NEVER KNEW THAT WE WERE ACTUALLY DEAD; TO WHERE WE NEVER SKIPPED A BEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS...AMAZING, LORD!!!
I think I will make a few copies of this and send it to ones whom I know that are facing this very process as we speak; as it will encourage them.. I can't imagine of not understanding thge death process and having to FEAR death or dying. How sad indeed, that most people are living their lives by being motivated (even if it is at the subconscious level) by the fear of dying. I think they tend to dwell on 'how' they will die and then run from facing the reality of 'death' for all of their years. I can see how satan can use this fear tactic to really hinder ones' peace during one's lifetime...
thanks again Ray!
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Excellent.
What a comfort!
gena
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.....and so we are passed from death to life and will not taste death! Oh death....where is thy sting now?....for now we know, see and hear the truth and the truth has set us FREE!
Thank you Ray of Gods light from the heart of Gods love.
Arcturus :D
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That was a very kind gift from Ray. I believe that also and it brings me much comfort.
When my father died I had a lot of grief thinking he was separated from all of us. I thought that must be worse than it was for us. At least we all had each other.
I also went through much grief when I was only 22 and my husband took his own life. I can't tell you how many people walked up to me and told me he went to hell. I searched the scriptures to prove that hell was not the truth and couldn't find the proof on my own. Ray cleared that up for me and I'm very thankful.
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M.G. I'm sorry you had so much grief.
What kind of person would walk up and say that to someone,
who had just lost a loved one? :'(
Thanks Dennis for posting the new article.
It really is an encouraging word about death.
Iris
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Oh MG! I am so sorry that you had to suffer at the hands of spiritually ignorant and cruel people who said those awful things to you. :'
I too a (at the age of 22 also) was tormented after my Grandmother, Aunt and cousin died all in a matter of three months; I was a babe in Christ and I was told that 'b/c they were not in the 'denomination' that I was in, then they were going to hell'...(I literally gained 60 pounds over that one-then I lost the weight. But, they will have to answer one day for what they were teaching to babes! As it definately made me stumble!)
Sadly, :'This reminds me of a Jewish friend of ours whom died and (I was too immature to know the truth about hell) that I was guilty of telling the widower that I was concerned of her dying without Yeshua! (Should I go back now and apologize to him or is it too late? It was about 12 yrs ago.)
"
I once was told by an 'elder' that "there is no hope for you in Heaven Susan, b/c you married a man who has been divorced!!???"
I have known of several people whom have died without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour, and a few whom have taken their own lives as well, and I must say that these deaths bothered me more than the rest at one time. (A dear friend of ours took his life a few yrs back and it tore us up) b/c we didn't know the 'no hell' truth. We really did anguish over this hell issue. We truly didn't know what to think; of course we are releived and understand now that we have been shown BT info. I'm so thankful that God answered our prayers over this one heart wrenching issue.
There was no end (in the pious religious world) to the reasons as to why certain people would go to hell!
At least now we can all encourage others with the truth about death, hell, and our new life to come (if they'll take it.)
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That was a very kind gift from Ray. I believe that also and it brings me much comfort.
When my father died I had a lot of grief thinking he was separated from all of us. I thought that must be worse than it was for us. At least we all had each other.
I also went through much grief when I was only 22 and my husband took his own life. I can't tell you how many people walked up to me and told me he went to hell. I searched the scriptures to prove that hell was not the truth and couldn't find the proof on my own. Ray cleared that up for me and I'm very thankful.
Hi M.G.,
They did what?! Oh that's real comforting, how christian of them. *shakes head*
Like those other nutty christians who go to dead soldiers funerals and hold up signs that read 'thank God for dead soldiers, God hates you, you're going to hell' etc...
It's a crazy world full of hatefilled, evil angry people. But their time will come.
Sorin
P.S. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
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Sorin, you got that right! I was just at one of those type funerals here, where two brothers had died over in the Gulf War recently. It was very sad, but when those self-righteous and hatemongers came out and protested this funeral using the very sings that you spoke of to picket with...well...lets' just say that they were running for their lives to get into their mini van to get out of there! Those "Harley Riders For Fallen Soldiers" whom travel all over the country to drown out these picketers didn't see any humor in that!!! >:( >:( :-\
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Sorry for resurrecting a dead thread, but I don't want to clutter the place up.
Anyway, to get to the point: Ray says that the Bible likens death to sleep, where there is no consciousness. But that seems to be reading into it to me. I had pondered using experiences described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, but considering that reincarnation/rebirth is bad or whatever, I won't. So if death is like sleep, how does that preclude consciousness? When I sleep I frequently have dreams, and there are people who can control their dreams and project their consciousness.
Also, if someone would mind telling me exactly why reincarnation is evil or wrong, I'd appreciate it. I mean, aside from the fact that it comes from "pagan" traditions, because I don't see that as a valid reason considering much of what is in the Bible.
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Hi moseslmpg,
I see this is your first post, welcome to the Bible-Truths forum :)
Jesus compared death to sleep, because as with sleep we are unconscious which means - experiencing loss of senses: unable to see, hear, or otherwise sense what is going on.
John 11:11 He said these things; and after that He said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps. But I go so that I may awaken him out of sleep.
v. 12 Then His disciples said, Lord, if he sleeps, he will get well.
v. 13 But Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He had spoken of taking rest in sleep.
v. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
But with sleep as you say, you do dream. But with death there is no mind function, as it says here.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,
Here are a few email that Ray has answered concerning death sa sleep and reincarnation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3747.0.html ----
Dear Lodewyk:
You need to read the material on our site. I spend thousands of hours researching and writing the material for our site. You need to read it. It answers all of your questions in great detail.
True, at death one's spirit returns to God, but it has no consciousness whatsoever. The consciousness is in the soul. Man IS a living soul, and when He dies, he is a dead soul. It is neither the soul, nor the body which are said to "sleep" in death, but rather that death itself is called "sleep." We are not resurrected with the dead body we died in, but are given a new, spiritual body (I Cor. 15:42-54). Read the first five pages of my Critique of Dr. Kennedy's sermon on Africans, and the Part C of my HELL series for detailed information on the body, soul, and spirit.
God be with you,
Ray
http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm#reincarnation ------------
Dear Randy:
It is not a bother for me to answer your questions.
Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons. God changes us into a new creature, a new creation, but this happens to us as the person we are, not a reincarnated different person.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3897.0.html ----
Dear Walter:
No, there is no such thing as human "reincarnation." Reincarnation is an ancient doctrine of the pagan Egyptians. God knew us from before the foundation of the world, not because we existed back then, but because we were IN HIS PLAN. God knew every person who would ever live, and when they would be born, and how long they would live, how they would live, etc., etc., etc. And He didn't plan for any to perish, but that all will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth (if not in this life, then in Judgment).
God be with you,
Ray
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Hello new member moseslmpg.
Welcome,
Love to know what lmpg means.
I'm 72 years old and married and live in Northern Indiana.
I'm interested in meeting new people and sharing ideas.
If you would like we can share our religion history and learn a little more about the other person. Maybe we came from similar backgrounds.
I was raised Presbyterian, then married a Methodist girl.
I served four years in the Air Force and then the Steel Mill.
six years on the police force in a small town of 10,000.
Studied to be an insurance salesmen for Prudential
Worked for a plumbing contractor.
Worked in municipal government for 17 years and later at the U. of Notre Dame
in the Civil Engineering Department and in Radiation Chemistry Research.
Recently retired & devoting my spare time to sharing God's truth with any who are truly interested. Don't believe in being pushy or going from door to door.
Love to discuss almost anything as long as we don't argue personalities.
Sincerely, Indianabob
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Sorin, you got that right! I was just at one of those type funerals here, where two brothers had died over in the Gulf War recently. It was very sad, but when those self-righteous and hatemongers came out and protested this funeral using the very sings that you spoke of to picket with...well...lets' just say that they were running for their lives to get into their mini van to get out of there! Those "Harley Riders For Fallen Soldiers" whom travel all over the country to drown out these picketers didn't see any humor in that!!! >:( >:( :-\
Well, since this thread was resurrected, I just wanted to say: Hooray for those Harley Riders! ;D
God Bless them!
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Hi Moseslmpg, welcome. Yes, I also would be interested in knowing what your signature means. I thik Kat did an excellent job in explaining your questions. Where do you live? I hope you find Gods' truths here. :)
Hello ole buddy Sorin, I haven't talked with you (or everyone else here in quite sometime now...) Yes, those Harley riders For Fallen soldiers do an amazing job by going around the country and following that group of hatemonging and judgemental picketers' at fallen soldiers' funerals; those riders simply roar up their engines and that drowns out the noises that the picketers are shouting about...
On another note, God has me SOO busy ministering to others lately that there is not much time to be on my favorite site and with my favorite people in the whole wide world (yes, BT). (Like just last night my nephews xwife passed away at age 42 and she left behind a 17 and a 19 yr old daughters, and one of them called me and I was able to share the NO HELL truths to her and she was sooo comforted; and relieved (and I had shared this with her mama months before she died (last night), and she accepted it, praise God. THE INFO FOUND HERE IN BT IS NOT JUST HEAD KNOWLEDGE,; THIS INFO iIS ABSOLUTELY ABLE TO ENCOURAGE, HEAL, COMFORT, AND SETS PEOPLE FREE!!! THE WORDS OF TRUTH FOUND HERE TRULY HELP THOSE WHOM HAVE A HEART TO RECIEVE IT!!!
blessings,
Susan
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Hi Susan,
It is always good to hear from you so stay in touch as you are able.
I must say it is inspiring to hear of how the Lord is presently using you to share His Good News to those who are hurting, what a horrible thing to contemplate, a loved one tortured for eternity with no hope of salvation. What a wonderful thing it is that they are hearing the message of hope, giving them some peace through a most difficult time.
Praise God!
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
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Hi Susan
I can second what Joe says!
My Gran passed away this morning. I am so grateful that finally she is out of her misery. She was a very precious person and suffered terribly in the final years of her life. My dear Cousin in Spain is very unhappy and so I will be sending her Ray's teaching on Death. I too hope it will reach in and comfort hurting wounds of pain and give my Cousin some hope. She resents religion and is quite clueless about the Love and Sovereignty of God.
Peace to you sis!
Arcturus :)
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Hello Susan, good to see you 'round these neck of the woods. ;)
How did you find out about these Riders? That is a wonderful thing they're doing. Glad they exist.
I understand they {those nutty Christians} have free speech or whatever; and I'm all for free speech. But what they're doing goes beyond freedom of speech, what they're doing is hurting people's emotions when they're most vulnerable. It's truly despicable.
Not to mention those are the same soldiers who sacrificed their lives defending the country so that those morons could even have 'freedom of speech'. Do they think freedom of speech is something that exists everywhere, in every country?
Though sadly, freedom of speech is something that's slowly fading in this country as well.... :-\
I also saw on the news that those nutty christians got sued, and the person suing them won. I'll see if I can find the video on youtube or something.
Enough about that, that was a great thing you did ministering to those who lost loved ones and showing them that there really is no fabled christian hell and that their loved one is not and will not be tormented anywhere for all eternity.
I attended a friend's funeral and got into a debate about 'hell' or lack there of...not to mention the deceased was not a 'follower of christ'
or 'saved' if you will. So according to their own doctrines he would have been burning in hell as the funeral was in session, but of course they wouldn't say that to his mother who was grieving so much they had to give her meds to even stand up. And my sister too, who was his girlfriend.
Every sunday that pastor preaches hell, hell, hell, come to Jesus, avoid hell, blah.... then at the graveyard, he conveniently says {which
I don't mind, but it's against his own doctrines} that they will all be reunited again {in heaven}. And that since Jesus rose, he too will rise. That's fine, except that, that's not what he teaches every sunday. Can you say, contradiction?
Well, I'm done rambling for now.... ;)
Oh, and welcome Moseslmpg
Take care,
Sorin
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Hi there Joe,
It is always great to hear from you as well. I have come to the reality that life is hardly ever easy most of the time and that the 'good times' are few and far between; not to sound pessimistic,, just realistic. But, right now I blessed with preparing for one of those good times; we are having the last night of Hanukkah with some friends whom are interestred in THESE TRUTHS. (The husband is an athiest.)
It IS neat in how God is using me Joe, just last hour a woman had called me to get my address (in order to pick up some blankets for a family that does'nt even have heat or blankets; and they lost everything in a house fire this time last year) and we ended up discussing biblical things and now she will be coming by this afternoon and she is eager to 'hear more'. So we will have some Hanukkah cookies and hot chocolate and discuss some major BIBLE TRUTHS. ("...Be ready in season and out of season to give an account for the hope that is within us...") God provides for me to teach those whom HE is dragging unto Himself; thankfully, I do not have to go evangelizing, proselytizing, or missionary 'izing' anymore(lol) if ya know what I mean.
There is another person who is a literally a PAID EVANGELIST/missionary in a church. whom we had business with last week. He had overheard me and my little boy speaking the other day and was SHOCKED that Daniel and I were having an adult conversatino about the HOLY OF HOLIES (in the OT temple at Jerusalem) and this guy wanted to know which church we went to; long story short, he got to talking with Daniel and so Daniel asked me in a whisper if he should tell him about there being 'no hell' and so we spoke about it to this church representative and so now he wants to be ''enlightened' like we are. Well, he has been reading the BT site for a couple of days now, so, we shall soon see how he is taking hold of the truths, and decide wether or not to study with him one on one. One word of caution though: this person seemed to not know anything more that how to argue his doctrine with me and I told him straight up, that we are not going to get along very well if he does that and that I will not tolerate any underhanded manipulations of his trying to convert me back to that religion. (Alot of Christians have a way of sneaking their agenda in while saying that they are only interested in studying with me; thats' why I sent him to BT's first; to see where his heart really is...know what I mean?
Shalom and Blessings to you too,
Susan
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Hi moseslmpg,
I see this is your first post, welcome to the Bible-Truths forum :)
Jesus compared death to sleep, because as with sleep we are unconscious which means - experiencing loss of senses: unable to see, hear, or otherwise sense what is going on.
But with sleep as you say, you do dream. But with death there is no mind function, as it says here.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,
Thanks, I appreciate the welcome.
Anyway, my problem with this is that while I can concede that when you are asleep your senses are not "working," that doesn't preclude me from dreaming that they are working. It's like the sensation is being bypassed itself and it goes directly to the consciousness that experiences the sensation. I'm sure that the brain is totally dead when you die, and for most people this means absence of consciousness, but I don't think it necessarily means that.
We are all spiritually "asleep" and "dead" in any case, but I think that more spiritually awakened individuals would stay "awake" during death. For instance, there are people who can project their consciousness while they sleep and go to different places in their house while their body is asleep. For the majority of the world, death is just like dreamless sleep because they have not developed enough to be able to stay conscious during the process IMO.
I think that if the metaphor is meant to be taken seriously, that dreaming should be included, are at least not precluded. There is evidence of reincarnation and there are instructions on how to remain conscious during death, but I imagine that these experiences would be attributed to demons (which is another story).
Here are a few email that Ray has answered concerning death sa sleep and reincarnation.
Dear Randy:
It is not a bother for me to answer your questions.
Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons. God changes us into a new creature, a new creation, but this happens to us as the person we are, not a reincarnated different person.
Dear Walter:
No, there is no such thing as human "reincarnation." Reincarnation is an ancient doctrine of the pagan Egyptians. God knew us from before the foundation of the world, not because we existed back then, but because we were IN HIS PLAN. God knew every person who would ever live, and when they would be born, and how long they would live, how they would live, etc., etc., etc. And He didn't plan for any to perish, but that all will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth (if not in this life, then in Judgment).
God be with you,
Ray
First of all, I want to say that I don't really see what point Ray is trying to make, and I don't think he really understands reincarnation, no offense meant. In the first e-mail he says that reincarnation (I assume this includes rebirth as well) is a doctrine of demons, but I have yet to see a reason why this is the case. In the second one, he uses the "argument from paganism" or from personal incredulity, and may be even setting up a straw man. I don't mean to attack Ray, but I just don't think this is as solid as some of his other findings. If you have this life and the Judgment, what's wrong with adding a few more in between? It certainly makes the task of learning your lessons and coming into knowledge of God more feasible.
What I would really like is some verses in the Bible that either preclude reincarnation or condemn it outright as evil. If there are none, then I think it is unreasonable to discount the doctrine based on one's personal belief system. Contrary to popular belief, the Abrahamic religions don't break down if reincarnation is true.
Edit: Also, the LMPG stands for Let My People Go. I used to use my friends as puppets during lunch to re-enact the Moses story, which is how I got my nickname. I live in Atlanta, GA during breaks and Hamilton, NY during school, but I've lived all around the world.
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What I would really like is some verses in the Bible that either preclude reincarnation or condemn it outright as evil. If there are none, then I think it is unreasonable to discount the doctrine based on one's personal belief system. Contrary to popular belief, the Abrahamic religions don't break down if reincarnation is true.
I would be lying if I said I didn't consider the validity of reincarnation, but the scripture has no validation for it and though it does not come out and say it is not true there are other scripture that seem to discount it. Ray has touched on these.
Be very careful on what doctrines you want to hang your hat on, I could state vampires are real and I would like some verses in the Bible that either preclude vampirism or condemn it outright as evil. I won't find these verses so I claim it as real? Apply the same logic to aliens, time travel, etc. etc. You see where I'm going. Our ideas can become idols of our hearts. I can't condemn an idea because scripture doesn't speak of it but if I go down that path rather than the path that scripture does speak about, I'm afraid I will miss out on the message that God wants us to strive for, and that is Christ living in us. That is a very hard thing to let happen to us and IMO other ideas only make it harder.
Craig
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I'm not saying that reincarnation is true because there are no Scriptures that disprove it, but just pointing out that since there are none then one can't say that it is really disproved. It's fair game, or it appears to be so. I'm not trying to get people to change their beliefs, but I think that belief in reincarnation actually might be more helpful for certain people than for others. The idea that you are "chastised" after one life or after 108 doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me.
BTW depends on what you mean by vampires, but I think it would fall under stealing and harming one's health. I personally believe that vampires are just a literalization of certain types of demons, aliens most likely do exist (the vastness of the universe coupled with our anthropocentrism points to it), and time travel is certainly possible but not with any type of machine. I agree that our ideas are idols, but that includes pretty much all of them, especially any ideas of God. But that's the world we live in, and very few people will ever be able to remove these idols (at least in this life).
Out of curiosity, what message that God wants us to strive for does reincarnation obscure? That's basically all I want to know. It doesn't have to be the official position, but just the general Christian idea. Also, could someone give me their understanding of reincarnation? It seems to be a very misunderstood doctrine nowadays. Lastly, how does one explain away the near death experiences where one has been dead for hours, or anecdotal evidence of reincarnation? Again I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just want to know the arguments for the other side.
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I do not want to argue for this side or against that side because that is fruitless. Here is what I believe.
The Word of God is the final authority for me.
Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appoint for all men once to die, and after that the judgment, 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many ONCE and ONCE FOR ALL, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting HIM.
Religious ideas that strain away from Christ, embrace reincarnation. They look to their formulas and ideas to resolve their imperfections and they invent their illusions to accommodate their beliefs that do not include the sacrifice of Christ. That should clarify this discussion should it not?
1 Tim 6: 20 O Timothy (moseslmpg ) guard and keep the deposit entrusted to you! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the SUBTLETIES and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. 21 For by making such profession some have erred, missed the mark as regards the FAITH. Grace be with you all! Amen so be it.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi moseslmpg,
I believe the Scripture that Arcturus gave make the idea of reincarnation an impossibility,
Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appoint for all men once to die, and after that the judgment,"
I believe we are given this life as an "experience of evil," but not to have this evil experience repeated over and over. That would be a horrible thought.
Ecc 1:13
(CLV) ...it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
(LITV) ...It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by it.
(NASB) ...It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
(NKJV) ...this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.
(Rotherham) ...is the vexatious employment God hath given to the sons of men, to work toilsomely therein,
Also your idea; aliens most likely do exist (the vastness of the universe coupled with our anthropocentrism points to it),
We have a Scripture for that too.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
I believe this is a indication that there is no other human life. What would be the point in that. This Elect from this human race will be the means by which the "whole creation" shall be "delivered from the bondage of corruption."
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
v. 22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
This is what I see in these Scriptures :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Craig, Arcturus, and Kat,
Excellent scriptural references! The truth of these scriptures speaks for themselves MOSESLMPG! I would stick with the Word and only the Word, and not worry about what the spirit is not letting you know right now. (You sound like you are Anne....are you?)
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Great post Kat. I am glad you mentioned that scripture about Eve being the "mother of all living."
Here just to put the nail in the coffin of the false teachings of demonic reincarnation is this :
Acts 4 : 11 This Jesus is the Stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which has become the Head of the corner, the Cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in and through NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we MUST BE SAVED.
That pretty much says it all! :D :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Sorin, (I guess our emails crossed earlier). I found out about these riders b/c lots of them are from here in Lubbock ,Texas ;) ;D Yes, I agree, that our soldiers died to give that mouthy group of christians their freedom to be mouthy and negative at vulnerable funerals; I did not know that they finally got sued; maybe they will learn their lesson now?. :-X :-X :-X Yes, freedom of speech is coming to a close in our Country isn't it? (In Philadelphia, one is not allowed to say the word 'gay' or they can be sued!!!! A grandmother was picketing about 'gays' and she got thrown into jail.... :-\ )
Yes, that is our job while here to minister to those who are mourning....(Sad how the preachers enjoy judging on people going to hell while in the pulpit and then are hypocritical at the funeral/graveyard where he would be FIRED (or possibly hurt) for saying the same thing in front of the family members; so he stays quiet at the funeral on the issue of hell...amazing! :-[ :-\
So, where is your home now? (sorry, I couldn't remember?) ;)
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OK, since my post was deleted for whatever reason, can someone just give me a straight answer as to why reincarnation is bad?
At the risk of dissenting from the Infallible Truth of the common interpretation of the Scriptures as presented on this site, I don't believe that the verses provided prove anything about physical death. They of course are related to it, but I think to assume that they refer to only it to is have a shallow understanding of death and ignore the fact that Scripture is rarely literal.
I'm not going to touch the aliens though, lest my post be deleted again. Though one wonders what harm there is in asking a simple question.
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Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons. It has its origins in Egypt and is Pagan.
God says Ezekiel 20:7 Let EVERY man CAST AWAY the abominable things on whichhe feasts his eyes, and defile NOT yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.
For me there is no discussion. No debate. No argument. No story worth observing or entertaining that would present a doctrine of demons as having any credibility or authenticity or love for Jesus Christ and His Father God. There is just no contest. ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I know it is "a doctrine of demons," but I would like an explanation of exactly what is demonic about it. I am not going to debate it or argue either, I just want to know what characterizes reincarnation as demonic.
Saying reincarnation is bad because it is pagan or a doctrine of demons, is like saying something is bad because it is bad. And anyway, I think the pagan argument is the weakest one there is for this case because...well I probably can't say without my post being deleted. Suffice it to say that I would like an explanation rather than a scapegoat.
And in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not trying to convert anyone.
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You know it is a doctrine of demons do you?
Why do I not believe that? .... If it is true that you DO KNOW IT IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS then WHY do you wish to discuss it? I would much prefer to put my mind on Christ and HIS Doctrine and Gospel. That is food to my soul and life to my heart....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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When I say I know it, I mean I know that other people regard it as such. I'm just wondering why they think that and whether I am missing something.
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At the risk of dissenting from the Infallible Truth of the common interpretation of the Scriptures as presented on this site,
Hi moseslmpg,
Is this response really necessary?
Perhaps instead of us scripturally refuting reincarnation you can provide the scriptural witnesses that support it.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Well very few things are necessary, but that doesn't stop us from doing them. I'm still mildly frustrated that my post was deleted because I don't know why and as far as I know it didn't violate the forum rules. The idea that I got from that is if someone posts something, even a question, contrary to the consensus interpretation of the Bible the post is deleted. I can respect censorship in some cases, but I was clearly doing nothing wrong and I didn't even get a warning or indication that I was. This gives the illusion of infallibility and unwillingness to even consider other positions, so I felt that the comment was warranted. Hopefully sarcasm isn't against the forum rules...
Anyway, back to the topic: I am not trying to convince anyone of reincarnation so giving evidence of it is pointless and could be construed as against teaching/preaching. I have already been given scriptural evidence that seems to refute reincarnation with a literal reading (although being untrue and being evil are two different things), but since that didn't help I would like someone to explain why reincarnation is bad.
I am asking a simple question, but people keep sidestepping it. Someone explain to me like I am a child, and I have no idea of what pagans are or what demonic means, why reincarnation is wrong. What ideal of Christianity does it obscure or corrupt?
If this is a futile line of questioning, please tell me and I will give it up.
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Hi moseslmpg,
I didn't see the post but, which God would be doing the reincarnation?
If the scriptures say that people have no thoughts or works after death than which God would we be worshiping?
We are to have no other gods before our God and THATS what makes it wrong.
Gods speed.
Randy
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Hi moseslmpg,
Forum rules in red.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
Your post that I pulled had, almost nothing to do with what is taught at BT.
This is a statement I pulled out of that post.
Forgive me if I come off as antagonistic or overly argumentative. This is just how I discuss things. I am actually making a lot of effort not to push my views on to others in the thread. But if I see something which I believe is wrong/harmful, I will at least give my opinion on it, as I expect others to do as well.
THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
Being argumentative is debating.
But if any of the other mods think that post should be reposted, then so be it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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If this is a futile line of questioning, please tell me and I will give it up.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Please consider that we are not inclined to give weight to every humanistic or pagan philosophy man has invented, our purpose here is to study the Word of God and the articles presented on Bible Truths, we could discuss the merits of Socialism, Nazism, Communism, New Age Philosophy, Atheism, etc. with zero resolution until the end of the ages if we decide to discount the importance of His Word, replacing it with our own reasoning.
This is not our purpose.
We can discuss scripture you feel supports reincarnation but it is unfair for you to put this burdon of disproving it on us, there are many things that are not specifically addressed in scripture but in using the principles presented you can discern the answers.
Drunk driving is not addressed.
Sex change operations are not addressed.
Gambling the rent money is not addressed.
Selling Mom's heirlooms for cocaine is not addressed.
Hacking computers is not addressed.
Shooting steroids is not addressed.
We have over 2000 pages of articles on Bible Truths as well as the entire Bible we can discuss why is this so critical and important and where in the rules you agreed to did you get the impression we are anxious to give credence to pagan beliefs?
We all should consider every person who may peruse this site (guest, new member, etc.) as we seek to increase our knowledge of His plan and purpose for His creation. If anyone seeks to explore outside of this outline then please do, there are many sites out there devoted to debate and an anything goes atmosphere. You are still more than welcome here but it is not our desire to go down that road in this Forum.
To be honest we have not even scratched the surface of the depths of the articles and scriptures that we have to resort to speculation of unscriptural theories.
I hope you understand.
Peace,
Joe
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I am going to make this short and to the point
Reincarnation implies that the soul is immortlal. This is totally unscriptural and has its sourse in Greek and Eyptian and othe cultures. Hense not a subject that interest people at the BTF.
Demonic is a malevolent spirit/ divsisive /clestial shining. In hebrew the serpent in the garden was given this later discrpition... Even though they are part of the power and principalities ....we know that all of these are under the control of God as part of HIS orderly arrangement.
They are of the dark....not the LIGHT...hence they too ....are of little interest to people at BTF.
Beloved
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Well very few things are necessary, but that doesn't stop us from doing them. I'm still mildly frustrated that my post was deleted because I don't know why and as far as I know it didn't violate the forum rules. The idea that I got from that is if someone posts something, even a question, contrary to the consensus interpretation of the Bible the post is deleted. I can respect censorship in some cases, but I was clearly doing nothing wrong and I didn't even get a warning or indication that I was. This gives the illusion of infallibility and unwillingness to even consider other positions, so I felt that the comment was warranted. Hopefully sarcasm isn't against the forum rules...
Dear moseslmpg
So there is no misunderstanding
If you have a problem with a moderator, the way the forum is managed, or another user of the forum then address this through private mails. Publicly airing your grievances could be grounds for banishment, and will get your post deleted.
Please understand there is a set of rules YOU agreed to when you signed up, the above paragraph is ONE of those rules, and you are breaking it.
Please refrain from breaking the rules.
Chris R