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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sorin on March 04, 2007, 03:48:37 PM
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Another from the email section, this was titled assumptions.
"All these thousands of years and all of these Christians wrong. Thank God that God finally sent you to explain everything to us. I am jumping on your bandwagon because only you and your followers will be saved.
whew!
Dear Matt:
Your false assumptions, not mine.
Ray
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I just want to say that anyone who follows Ray will most assuredly not be saved.
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I believe that the false assumption that Ray was refering to was where the writer assumes that Ray and only Ray and his "followers" will be saved. Ray doesn't teach that at all. Ray shows us what God says that ALL will be saved in the end. ;D
As for Ray, I follow Ray's teachings....I think I would have a pretty difficult time literally following Ray the man! I am not interested in following Ray the man...but I do agree with Ray's teachings and am a student...I study...what Ray teaches! I think that makes me a follower! :D
The Lord...Eph 4 : 11... gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists, and some pastors and TEACHERS.
Ray says he is a teacher but I think he is being modest...I think he is all of the above! I know some of us agree that he is of the Elect!...what would that make some of us.... ::) Heretics I think ;D ;D ..worse than followers! ;D
Ray is a teacher. He offers us a school of thought that happens to be revelations, wisdom, insights and truths from the word of God and from what God has shown to him.
I think that is what Ray meant....All will be saved because that is what he teaches and that is what God says.
In Pauls day there were those who "followed" agreed with and accepted Pauls teachings and there were those who did not. the same can be said for Jesus. Come "follow me".....and so we do...we follow HIM who speaks via our teacher!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Another from the email section, this was titled assumptions.
"All these thousands of years and all of these Christians wrong. Thank God that God finally sent you to explain everything to us. I am jumping on your bandwagon because only you and your followers will be saved.
whew!
Dear Matt:
Your false assumptions, not mine.
Ray
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I just want to say that anyone who follows Ray will most assuredly not be saved.
Hi Sorin,
I agree, in the strict sense what you have posted is absolutely true. I am speaking for myself here as I do not "follow Ray" as we are instructed to follow Christ but as Ray would tell anyone himself, he is a teacher, he has been called to give the "Good News" by the foolishness of preaching. He is not seeking followers but is providing material for students (this is what I consider myself) who will use this treasure to move forward in their own personal walk with the Lord.
Now as to listening to what Ray teaches and giving much weight to the things that have been by the grace of God revealed to him that is a whole different topic, there have been some who have passed through this Forum that have believed they have progressed to a deeper understanding of the plan and purpose of our heavenly Father and His Son. Have they done this with sound scriptural witnesses? Or have "feelings" and private (without much if any scripture) interpretations been the cornerstone of their assertions?
Look at the volume and wealth of information on Bible Truths, consider whether these others who have made bold statements have produced anything significant in their one or two small points of contention.
Unfortunately this sort of topic is a breeding ground for strife and misunderstanding, I am sure this was not your motivation or intention but I wanted to get this perspective on the table before a feeding frenzy develops.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi Arcturus,
You were posting as I was formulating my thoughts, you stated this very well.
Thank you,
Joe
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Let me restate what I meant with this verse.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Joe, I believe you understood what I meant, but just to make myself more clear to everybody else.
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Hello rj :D ;D :D
Thank you Joe! ;D
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Joe, I believe you understood what I meant, but just to make myself more clear to everybody else.
Hi Sorin,
Yes, there wasn't any doubt in my mind as to where you are coming from on this topic, I have see you in action with the heavy artillery when others have suggested there was a group of "blind followers" here. ;)
Appreciating even respecting a teacher who has proven to be scripturally sound is not something to be ashamed of or having a need to justify, many of us here have benefited from all the time, effort and prayers that have been put into proclaiming and distributing the Wisdom the Lord has provided Ray, I (and I am sure you agree) would feel like an ingrate if I were to minimize or trivialize the impact these papers have made on my growth and understanding of His Word.
No one in my (almost) 53 years of being on this earth has come close to sharing with me the liberating knowledge that Bible Truths has provided.
For that I thank God,
Joe
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Ditto and Amen and I Absolutely agree with all of you here. :D
We must be very careful to not follow a man; but if his teachings are of God, then it would behoov us to learn from the teacher. In this case...God has blessed me beyond words as to the life changing and mind altering and heart softening touch that Ray's teachings have brough into my life. One day I will be able to thank Ray (in person) for his diligence to study out these hard spiritual issues and to thank him for his unselfish sharing of these bible truths with those of us that are seeking only the truth. (Thank You Yeshua for putting this humble man in our lives!) And thank you all who have put this forum together and for all of you that help to maintain it everyday! Your work does not go unnoticed) ;)
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Good post, Sorin.
I see that Ray never have goal anyone to follow him as others false assumption because they have not see any of Ray's letters. He always showing of God's words, the real words. And even he always mentioned Jesus is the Savior WHOLE world. He loves the truth as we do, too. That is simple. ;)
Brett :)
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I agree too, great posts from all. :)
Because of God leading me to Bible-Truths
i have been able to have a full banquet meal
every day, and it just keeps coming.
Thanks Ray for all your hard work.
Iris
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Ray is not seeking a following. Ray has been given a gift of decerning the scripture, and is sharing the understnading that God has given him. This has brought a lot of condemnation on him, because people do not believe the scripture. He has repeated time and again for someone to prove him wrong with two scripture. No one has done this, because they can't.
There are some who God leads to find bibletruth and He begins revealing the truth to them through Ray's teaching. This is the way God has determined to do it.
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.
I look on Ray as a brother in Christ. He knows a great deal more than I, so I study what he writes to learn what the scriptures say. Maybe in a way I am a follower/imitator of Ray, because I would like to imitate how he serves Christ. Ray studies and works on his papers constantly, hours every day. As Paul said;
1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Christ is first in my life, anyone that helps me get closer to Christ is someone I want to be apart of my life. I am so blessed to know Ray, but he is not like a leader or superior, he's my friend.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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L. Ray Smith certainly has been an instrumental vessel in all of our lives as we come into a deeper understanding of bible truths! We all should thank God for this man.
But in keeping with the topic of the thread, I will follow that up with a friendly reminder that we all must be vigilant that we do not fall into the trap of following any man. It does take deep careful inspection of ourselves to make sure that we do not do that.
Remember that nearly the whole Christian world believes they ''only follow the bible'' or ''only follow Christ,'' but as we know they deceive themselves because they follow their traditions and denominational teachings.
Also remember that in Revelation John fell at the angel's feet to worship him. That happened for a reason - as an example to us of how easily we can also begin to exalt man and traditions above God. :)
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Hi all,
We have been accused of being followers of a man. I have always heard that we should never follow man and perhaps in most cases that's true. But, the scriptures also teach this....
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:14-17
"I" Corinthians 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
I'm like Arcturus, I have no desire to follow the man Ray Smith, my desire is to follow the Christ in Ray Smith.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul." I Cor. 12,13
Just following a man will produce nothing except division and strife; so we must always heed the word of the Lord, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matt: 7:20.
I have seen a lot of good fruit being produced here, so I think I'll just follow along.
In Him,
Dwight
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I marvel at how like God it is to use a man of no reputation, or seminary degree, but a roofer, to teach and give revelation of His word.
I remember the first letters I read on Ray's site. The letter to Hagee and Kennedy. I knew that my paradigm was shifting because I was reading truth like I never had before. To me it was so plain it was indisputable. I was blown away by the spiritual wisdom and insight into God's word. I treaded carefully not sure what to think about Ray's writings at first but so awe inspired that I continued to read with fervor.
I came upon Ray's website as I was looking for information on God's sovereignty. I was having a hard time with the teachings of the church. I knew there was something missing. I remember watching a show called word pictures that touched on God's sovereignty but left me starving and my questions unanswered. I just didn't understand how we were suppose to choose God when no one can come to God unless He draws them. In reading Ray's writings he answered those questions and more that I've had that didn't make sense from Christiandom's teaching.
Before the Bible was like a book of contradictions that didn't make sense unless you discounted a part of scripture, which is what denominations do. I love how Ray explains the congruency of the Scriptures through teaching us The TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD.
I am so thankful for the work that Ray has done for the Lord in bringing these truths to us. I notice many places I go on the internet I see ads for Bible-Truths. Ray has invested a lot of time and resources to bring these truths to us! God Bless you Ray!
I am also blessed by the moderators who take their time to moderate these boards. I'm sure that it is a great sacrifice of their time. Thank you and Bless you for the work you are doing.
I follow Christ as Ray has helped further reveal Him to me.
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Amen and Amen!!
ARe there chosen in every generation?? Who was their "Ray Smith"??
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I like the fact that Sorin posted it just because it helps us realize that Ray is just a vessel and it is God who is actually teaching us. It is a reminder for us to beware of cult of personality. The tendency to Adore Ray because of the gift God bestowed on him is ever present as it is in every walk of life when people are worship because of a gift or a talent received from God.
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EXCELLENT Point Pro
Ches
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I don't see myself as a follower of Ray either but more of a follower of the wisdom and insight God has graciously bestowed on him. I feel tremendously blessed for the opportunity to take advantage of this. It's not as if these truths were given to him all at once in one unbelievable prophetic vision. According to Ray, much struggle, time, prayer, reflection and study has been involved in what he's learned. I know I cannot bypass everything, but if God can use Ray to show me and others truths in a fraction of the time God took to show it to Ray, then PRAISE GOD! I know I still need to have patience but I'm getting up there in age and I don't want to waste anymore time believing lies, so studying Ray's material is like a well illustrated map to all the treasures...you still have to do the work in hunting (studying Ray's material and looking up all the scripture) but at least you have a guide to point you in the right direction.
Ray says it so well himself in this email:
Dear Ambrose:
I sometimes spent five or ten hours on one word or phrase in the Scriptures. Sometimes weeks. Sometimes I entertain a thought or Scriptural phrase FOR YEARS AND YEARS before God opens my understanding to it. Then I take twenty minutes to write it down in a paragraph. Why would not rather read my paragraph than take YEARS AND YEARS to come to the same understanding by your own independent study? I wish I had someone to go to like me to learn the things that often take me years to learn. Have you read all of the material on my site at least three times? Do you UNDERSTAND all of the material on my site? Then maybe you need to start reading again. Paul told timothy to STUDY. If it didn't require study, then I don't think Paul would have told Timothy to study, nor would Paul have (in his old age) requested that they bring him the scrolls that he left behind. Also trust me when I tell you that a lot of great study tools will not teach you the truths of the Scriptures . Most Bible Scholars have a hundred times more Biblical study aids than I have. Only God can show you His Truths. Study aids can help verify those truths, but those study aids will not teach you spiritual truths.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3700.0.html
Peace and God Bless, Diana
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Excellent post Diana,
Thank you,
Joe
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There is not a problem adoring Ray if you look at it from this definition of the word.
Main Entry: adore
3 : to be extremely fond of <adores pecan pie>
Ray = pecan pie
I look on Ray as a brother in Christ. He knows a great deal more than I, so I study what he writes to learn what the scriptures say. Maybe in a way I am a follower/imitator of Ray, because I would like to imitate how he serves Christ. Ray studies and works on his papers constantly, hours every day. As Paul said;
1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Christ is first in my life, anyone that helps me get closer to Christ is someone I want to be apart of my life. I am so blessed to know Ray, but he is not like a leader or superior, he's my friend.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Awesome response, Kat.
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I agree with you Diana,
I see Ray, less as a teacher and more as a guiding light. Ray has shed light on many, many concepts that were either totally in the dark or at least shady. Shady, because through God, I questioned the belief of the church, but not lit Ray presented spiritual understanding by God.
I am not sure if I am not only one that feels this way, but God has shown himself and of himself more and more everyday.
Past beliefs and half beliefs are either being substantiated or blown completely away. We of course should expect this: :)
Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Ray's guiding light sure does promote unity and this is something I am very thankful for. Praise be to God.
Love,
Darren
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As I'm going about my morning business, making breakfast for my beautiful children, I was thinking about this also:
I remember when I first read Ray's writings I was in awe of HOW MUCH SCRIPTURE he uses. I mean, the man barely writes a few sentences without inserting yet another witness of scripture. Because of this, I felt like it was the scriptures talking to me and not Ray. (Although I "adore" Ray's humour and the way he comments on the verses he uses!)
I had been using E-sword already before I discovered bibletruths, but after reading Ray's material I was using it more than ever, looking up EVERYTHING, and by doing this was led to even more scripture that he didn't list but that nevertheless substantiated what he was saying. The scriptures really did come alive.
Now, do Pastors in the churches do this when giving their sermons or bible studies? Not in my experience. It amazes me when the detractors exclaim that Ray is spouting out his erroneous "opinion". How can it be his opinion when he lays out scripture after scripture?? This floors me every time I see this in an email. But it also shows me clearly that God really does blind people and I am forced to remember how blind I was. I still can't believe some of the scriptures I've read that I didn't really SEE. It's like, "Whoa, where did that come from?" Simply Amazing, and this obviously can only be a gift from God.
So if citing scripture after scripture is only "opinion" and "foolishness" to some people, then so be it. I for one am ever so grateful for being taught for once in my Christian life HOW to understand the bible for myself.
Peace, Diana
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Same w/ me Diana!!!
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I believe that God has given Ray a special gift of discerning the scripture. This is being revealed to him as he studies the scripture, it is from his constant personal biblestudies that God is showing him what he knows. Ray knows that he has a special gift of understanding of the scripture and he is devoted to getting the truth out as much as time will allow. He spends many hours everyday at the computer working on those papers and emails.
Ray is a friend and brother, I do not feel any high regard as of him being superior to me. God is just using him one way and me another way now, one is not superior to the other. Of course he knows a lot more than I do, so he is teaching me, I do not have a problem calling him a teacher, because that is what he is doing.
Since he knows the truth, he realizes that God could bring him down and raised someone else up as quick as a wink. He is aware that he is just a tool in God's hand. I am trying to get across that Ray is just an ordinary man that God is using to do His will, that's the way I see him. I easily see beyond Ray to Jesus Christ, where all my hope lies.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
You stated that very well.
I know what you mean about what Ray is like when you are with him versus what someone's perception may be by only reading a two dimensional paper or e-mail response. It was at the last 2 conferences that I had the opportunity to meet and get to know Ray a little bit and all you wrote I have also found to be true.
He truly is a humble man who recognizes the gift he has been given and all the accountability that comes with that gift.
I thank the Lord every day that He saw fit to put Ray Smith in my path toward Him, I have learned more in the past 1 year and 7 months than the 51 years previous. I would be an ingrate to feel otherwise.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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You are right about not getting the bigger picture from the written communications we have from Ray Joe!
his audios are most helpful to allow us on other continents or who are not able to come to visit Ray, to appreciate the mood and attitude of his statements! These can so easily be mis-understood or seen as angry or hostile as he is often accused of being! When you HEAR the gentleness, wisdom and effortless clarity and truth as he speaks and refutes error, then you begin to experience patience, humility and reverence for God that comes through via Ray.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I found this scripture interesting in relation to this topic.
1Timothy 5:17 - Let elders who have presided ideally be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who are toiling in word and teaching.
Ray has been blessed with gift of spiritual understanding and we have been recipients of this blessing. It is ALL of God!
Peace,
Rene'
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Amen Rene!
...and let us add this as good measure, pressed down and shaken together.... ;D
! Thes 5 : 12,13 Now also we beseech you, brethren, get to know those who labor among you, recognize them for what they are, acknowledtge and appreciate and respect them all - your leaders who are over you in the Lord and those who warn and kindly reprove and exhort you. 13 And hold them in very high and most affectionate esteem in intelligent and sympathetic appreciation of their work.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Amen Rene!
...and let us add this as good measure, pressed down and shaken together.... ;D
! Thes 5 : 12,13 Now also we beseech you, brethren, get to know those who labor among you, recognize them for what they are, acknowledtge and appreciate and respect them all - your leaders who are over you in the Lord and those who warn and kindly reprove and exhort you. 13 And hold them in very high and most affectionate esteem in intelligent and sympathetic appreciation of their work.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Arcturus, my sister what a wonderful Scripture.
After reading it several times, I have come to the realization that there are many here that labor amongst us, yourself included. :)
Of course there is Ray, but then there are the Moderators whose task is to: "warn and kindly reprove and exhort." And then their are the brothers and sisters of Christ, who through much diligence and perseverance, bring forward for the attention of others, Scriptures and snippets of articles or responses of Rays.
Thanks for posting this. :)
Love in Christ,
Your brother, Darren
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Amen to all the above posts.
Just one more thing. Uh, gee, where is the "give, give" button on his site?? Does he live in a mansion?? Does he own several rolls royces???? Does he wear Armani??? Does he & his wife own jets???? Do all his kitties have diamond necklaces??? I am being silly but you know what I mean.
Yeah, I am following him all right, straight to the Bible and trying to be real & honest and loving. He is a great role model. I thank God for him and for God blessing me thru him.
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Gena,
I know what you're saying. If L. Ray Smith were a "False Profit" what is he getting out of it? Certainly not money and fame. So why would a "False profit" go through the trouble of writting all those papers, putting up a website, and paying for it, and all the research and study, and put in all the effort and time if he is not benefiting from it? And by benefiting from it I mean
what you were saying about living in a mansion and owning luxury cars and his and her jets, and a mistress too. ;) It just doesn't add up.
So let's look at it from the christians' point of view. He is a false profit even though he doesn't benefit financialy from 'deceiving people, so then what does he get out of it?
What did he strike a deal with the devil, to decieve as many people as possible so that they too wil end up in hell, with him and the devil.... wow, he'd have to be a real sucker to do that and not even get to live it up in this life. It just doesn't add up.
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Exactly!!!!
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I just discovered his writtings a couple months ago.
I had been searching for the truth and wondering why I just couldn't bring myself to go to any church anymore.
I had been so disappointed in church it seemed so superficial I felt like I just didn't belong anywhere well anyway...
I had been wondering why I seem to be judging myself daily.
I told a relative about my struggles, she said was there anything good I said no not really, she said well you know where that came from then.
She said Satan is trying to make you feel worthless, I didn't argue with her but knew I was being judged and it was right.
There was one day I acted up in front of my daughter by a curse word *my daughter is grown* I felt so bad for doing this I felt like such a failure because her and I had been talking how God was working in our lives.
I tell you that was the weirdest thing the curse word just came out and to be honest I was more shocked than she was.
This is what really made me realize God was showing me things by my worthless feelings.
The good part it didn't last he got his message to me through my bad actions.
My first post here was something about this and all my failures, It really was good to hear we do go through rough times for our own good.
It was humbling and to feel humble and worthless for a short while helped me realize I am going to be ok.
I am greatful for that and for Ray's writtings and this board it is helping me get to where I need to go on this journey.
I am not saying it is easy my husband can be so uncaring and for years I prayed Lord can you change him to be more loving.
He is not a bad person though just cold and aloof I knew this when I married him he is very responsible but cold...Lol
Anyway through all of this and there is so much more God is showing me I am where I am supposed to be at this time.
I am so grateful God is teaching me to learn through all of this, So Ray's teaching has been a lifeline to me.
I don't follow Ray but I know what he is teaching finally explains all of my why God why why?
I am learning through his teachings I am grateful for that and most I am grateful that God saw fit to reveal a bit of truth.
I say a bit because I don't always see right away.
If I have been wrong on anything I have said about learning from my faults please correct me...I really finally am teachable. I think. :)
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Just to add one more thing...I found Ray's site when I was researching funding of the figures in the apostate "Religious Right" and clicked on a link for Bible Truths while reading about Pat Robertson's funding sources (an interesting story in itself). Also, I had started serious Bible study on my own at the time (having eschewed Bible Study at the church I was going to at the time because of some false doctrine the pastor was teaching). Because I was searching for the truth, God had revealed to me that certain popular Christian doctrines were absolutely false...and then, He lead me to Ray's site, and the articles blew me away with their incredible truth, the undeniable, proven so completely by use of Scripture, and, in fact, I had never known anyone who could use Scripture the way God has chosen Ray to do so. My point is this: I believe those who "find themselves" on Ray's site are pointed there exactly at the right time when those can handle the truth...as well as for those who are led there to try to debunk what he does, and can't, so they use name calling and damn the man to "hell." I don't "follow Ray", but anyway I'd like to say here "thanks, Ray" all the same.--Deb
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I found this scripture interesting in relation to this topic.
1Timothy 5:17 - Let elders who have presided ideally be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who are toiling in word and teaching.
Ray has been blessed with gift of spiritual understanding and we have been recipients of this blessing. It is ALL of God!
Peace,
Rene'
Exactly