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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: jakfr0s on July 28, 2008, 09:19:08 PM
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Hi all! Iam asking this because I was reading in this.
Joh 9:1 And, passing along, He perceived a man, blind from birth."
Joh 9:2 And His disciples ask Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he should be born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man sinned, nor his parents, but it is that the works of God may be manifested in him."
Is blindness considered a kind of sickness? If so then it seems to me that sin has does not cause sickness.
I could be so very wrong, but it seems that its just as verse 9:3 states.
I also read somewhere in one of Ray's papers that in fact Jesus did get sick, but I could be wrong and maybe read it somewhere else. But for the life of me I cant find that in Scriptures cause I know there was something in there that said something like maybe Jesus got sick. I searched the forums here but could not find such a subject. I may have to re-read all of Ray's papers again just to find it.
You know I tried to get this all out of my mind, but for what ever reason I couldnt.
Anyway I was looking for info on sweating blood sickness or something like that. I went over to webmd.com and put in the terms "sweating blood". It didnt show me anything about sweating blood, but it showed me something called Supraventricular Tachycardia. And I was like whoa! I think I got that sickness in me. The symptoms were, * A racing or fluttering feeling in the chest (palpitations).
* Chest discomfort (pressure, tightness, pain).
* Lightheadedness or dizziness.
* Fainting (syncope).
* Shortness of breath.
* A pounding pulse. You may feel or see your pulse beating, especially at your neck, where large blood vessels are close to the skin.
* Sweating.
* Tightness or fullness in the throat.
* Tiredness (fatigue).
* Excessive urine production.
Im like thats me! Except for the fainting, although I have felt like fainting before. Im no doctor but I did see a doctor before about one of those symptoms, which was the palpitations, but he said I was fine.
Anyway I suffer from all kinds of illness, but to me this is the scariest and most pressing. Its also why I think I quit going out, playing ball and all kinds of outdoor activities I use to do. I thought maybe my heart would explode or something.
I really dont like going to the doctor or even the dentist. Hopefully God will put a desire in me to go and see them one of these days.
But I still would really like to know what you all think or know from Scriptures about Jesus possibly getting sick?
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
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George,
This is taken from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007, under the title "Who and What Is Jesus?"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Luke 4:22 …And they said, "Is not this Joseph's Son?"
v. 23 And He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to Me this proverb, 'Physician, heal Yourself.’
Did you get that? Doubtless He said, your going to say that to Me. Why? He healed people, right? But He was sick and diseased! So your going to say to Me, well if you’re the great Physician and You're healing all these people, surely you're going to say to Me, “Physician, heal Yourself.”
Christ had a burden to bare. He was nothing to look at though, sickly and diseased, “a tender shoot out of dry ground” (Isa 53:2), sick, diseased with infirmaries.
Now it says in Isa 53:3, “He is despised and rejected by others, a Man of suffering (Heb.-pain).” Because when we say suffering, right away we think of some spiritual thing. You know He suffered persecution and things of that nature. It’s still suffering, but the word is pain. Why was He in pain? Because He had infirmaries. Is this a different Jesus than you have been thinking about?
Isa 53:3 “...and as One from whom men hide their faces…” that’s not what it says in the Hebrew, it should say “As One who hides His face,” Imagine the Son of God, Creator of the universe and in a body that’s uncomely, diseased, infirmaries and pain. It’s like when you go through a crowd, you don’t want to call attention to yourself, because there’s nothing here to see, you know.
Isa 53:3 “… He was despised, and we held Him of no account. V. 4 ….. and carried our diseases;”
Do you understand where this says He was tempted in all ways as we, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). And we think once in a while a pretty girl passed Him, He had to say, well I’ll look the other way. No! This is a whole lot more real than that.
He carried our diseases, oh. They will say, no He went to the cross for our diseases. No, He carried them in His body. And now is where they say, God just really beat the living day lights out of Him? That we count Him stricken down and afflicted? Who would say that?! It says WE. It doesn’t say God struck Him down. That is blaspheme. WE accounted Him stricken down and afflicted, we that’s a people. When they saw Him, they said 'this Man is being cursed of God, look at the pathetic thing. God is cursing this man bad, I wonder what He did wrong.' And then He would heal the people.
I mean it wasn’t the first time where He said, I know your all looking at Me saying, “heal Yourself Physician.” That must have come up many times, you know. It’s not in the Bible though it says;
John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
I mean how many hundreds of times did someone say, Lord you’ve healed me, I’m whole, why doesn’t God heal You? He would say that’s not My job to be healed and walk around whole and handsome, fortified and all that. He came to carry your diseases. I heal you, but I carry them in My body. WE account Him stricken down by God and afflicted, because that’s what you would conclude and that’s what people would look at.
Hope this helps.
René
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Wow thats incredible! How did I miss all that the first time? Not only did I read your post but most of the article you linked.
I dont feel so bad about my sickness anymore. Seems to be a very good thing. I know it dose not feel good at times, but I see it's just something we have to go through also. What a contrast it will be when we experience the good God has in store!
Thank you very much Rene, that really helped alot.
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
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I just looked up Isa 53:3 This is something I never contemplated before. I always thought of this verse as being spiritual. Not Jesus having physical pain and suffering physically. This has never crossed my mind. As I looked up several of these words it became clear to me. e-sword is great.
Darren
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I would think he got sick and tired! Wouldn't you with those nagging Pharisees! ;D
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Hi there George,
1 Pet 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.
This verse has helped me a great deal as I am in pain, daily. I have had spinal surgery and have four titanium screws in my lower back. Because Christ suffered in his body, I can live with my pain.
Love in Christ
Heidi
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Okay let me tell you this Jesus did not get sick. I will show this with the scriptures. Rev. 12:10 '. . . For the accuser(Satan) of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.' If we do wrong (Jesus didnt) then Satan accuses us and if God agrees we get sick or something is done to us, because Jesus didnt do wrong he could not get sick because Satan couldnt accuse him of anything. Why do you think Satan tempted Jesus in the desert? Its to get something to accuse Jesus off.
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Take a look at the story of Job my friend.
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Take a look at the story of Job my friend.
What did Job do "wrong"?
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Good point. what wrong did Job do? He love the Lord and was a righteous man. Berg3699, where is it said(scriptural) that we sin and God lets the devil make us sick. Is this what your said? If so it sounds like you are injecting your own opinion. if your going to prove scripture you need another scripture to back the first one up. I believe Ray said that. It takes two. If you did not say this then I'm sorry. Forget what I said.
Darren
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I knew some folks who had a friend and he had switched churches from their church and he had car trouble like a week later. They said it was because he had upset God. ???
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I knew some folks who had a friend and he had switched churches from their church and he had car trouble like a week later. They said it was because he had upset God. ???
Ok, I almost spit my coffee out laughing at that... THANK YOU!
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Yea, it is funny, but tragical true.
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Maybe God was mad, he switched Churches.....instead of coming out of Her? ;D
(So God the most Powerful of All......has a temper tantrum on a car, for changing churches)
Give Me A Break!
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According to Exodus 4:11, God creates the deaf, the dumb, the seeing and the blind.
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Col 1:16 For in Him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by Him and in Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all: and by Him all things consist.
1Ti 5:23 Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy frequent infirmities.
Luke was a physician and it's just my opinion right now, but Luke may have been Paul's personal physician and may have been the one who instructed Paul to tell Timothy about the wine.
If you have the means, go see a doctor. If they bother you that much, try something holistic.
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Anyway I was looking for info on sweating blood sickness or something like that. I went over to webmd.com and put in the terms "sweating blood". It didnt show me anything about sweating blood,...
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
Greetings George,
The medical term you are looking for is HEMATIDROSIS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis
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Wow, Jesus was under alot of stress then. I mean who wouldnt be, knowing the suffering He was about to experience. The next thing that comes to mind is the incredible peace He must have felt when He was resurrected. He truly is the Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
There are over 400 instances of the word peace in the King James Version of the Bible, these were some of the ones that really spoke to me.
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
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Amrhrasach, I will answer your question about what Job did wrong.
Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
Since the Word tells us 365 times not to fear and since fear is Satan's greatest weapon, fear is a bad thing for us to have. How many people get what they fear? Job was righteous, but he was apparently in great fear.
Fear is not allowed in our home. We fight it hard! >:( It isn't easy but we work at it. And believe me when I say we have faced fear many times in the past several years and come out victorious when we choose NOT to fear.
Just this spring we faced the IRS (and won) and forclosure on our home (and tomorrow the judge will hit his gavel and we are out of forclosure!) ;D
We thank God for teaching us not to fear and for giving us the faith needed to walk through these trials in victory! We ask and believe for what we need and we get it. God is faithful!
I am thankful for Job's story and the lessons within it.
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Hi Linny, I hope not to offend, please believe me when I say this.
I beleive Job did no wrong according to the first verse in Job which says;
Job 1:1 There was a man in the country of Uz. Job was his name. And this man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.
And this;
Job 1:8 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.
It was God who caused Satan to do this to Job
Job 1:12 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must not put forth your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence.
Even after God did this to Job's family Job said this;
Job 1:21 And he said, Naked I came forth from the belly of my mother, and naked I shall return there. Yahweh, He gives, and Yahweh, He takes away. Blessed be the name of Yahweh.
Job 1:22 In all this, Job neither sinned nor ascribed anything improper to Elohim.
It seems Job said this after God did this to him;
Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me
I mean who wouldnt be fearful after all that? Isnt it God Who inspires fear? All and any fear? Isnt fear part of evil, which God created? Seems Job was fearful of God as we all should be. I dont think it was the evil kind of fear Job had though.
Exo 34:10 Then He said: Behold, I am contracting a covenant; in front of all your people shall I do marvels which have not been created on the entire earth, or among any of the nations. So all the people among whom you are will see the handiwork of Yahweh, for fear inspiring is that which I am doing with you.
I believe here is why evil happens to us, according to Job;
Job 5:7 But humanity is born to misery, Even as sparks of burning coal shoot aloft to fly.
Job 5:8 Howbeit, as for me, I inquire of El, And before Elohim do I place my cause,
Even after all this God blessed Job even more than before. Because Job endured and was always patient. Just like God will do for us if we endure and be patient even when we suffer. Job is one of the best examples on how to endure trials.
I agree evil fear needs to be repented of, I simply cannot choose to be fearless. I have to ask God to grant me courage, and to remove the fear. There is also a healthy fear of which Job had for God. Maybe Im wrong, and prepared to be corrected. Im always willing to learn ;D
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
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Hi Linny, I hope not to offend, please believe me when I say this.
I beleive Job did no wrong according to the first verse in Job which says;
Job 1:1 There was a man in the country of Uz. Job was his name. And this man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.
And this;
Job 1:8 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.
It was God who caused Satan to do this to Job
Job 1:12 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must not put forth your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence.
Even after God did this to Job's family Job said this;
Job 1:21 And he said, Naked I came forth from the belly of my mother, and naked I shall return there. Yahweh, He gives, and Yahweh, He takes away. Blessed be the name of Yahweh.
Job 1:22 In all this, Job neither sinned nor ascribed anything improper to Elohim.
It seems Job said this after God did this to him;
Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me
I mean who wouldnt be fearful after all that? Isnt it God Who inspires fear? All and any fear? Isnt fear part of evil, which God created? Seems Job was fearful of God as we all should be. I dont think it was the evil kind of fear Job had though.
Exo 34:10 Then He said: Behold, I am contracting a covenant; in front of all your people shall I do marvels which have not been created on the entire earth, or among any of the nations. So all the people among whom you are will see the handiwork of Yahweh, for fear inspiring is that which I am doing with you.
I believe here is why evil happens to us, according to Job;
Job 5:7 But humanity is born to misery, Even as sparks of burning coal shoot aloft to fly.
Job 5:8 Howbeit, as for me, I inquire of El, And before Elohim do I place my cause,
Even after all this God blessed Job even more than before. Because Job endured and was always patient. Just like God will do for us if we endure and be patient even when we suffer. Job is one of the best examples on how to endure trials.
I agree evil fear needs to be repented of, I simply cannot choose to be fearless. I have to ask God to grant me courage, and to remove the fear. There is also a healthy fear of which Job had for God. Maybe Im wrong, and prepared to be corrected. Im always willing to learn ;D
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
Excellent point, George. I totally agree with your statement 'I simply cannot choose to be fearless'. That shows a knowledge of not only knowing you have no free will, but living in that knowledge as well. Similar to 'knowing Christ' compared to Christ in you and you in him.
Too often, we know these truths such as 'no free will' but we don't live our lives in that knowledge.
Thanks,
Marques
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No offense taken. However, allow me to explain further as I think you misunderstood me.
I do NOTHING without the power of God working within me. When fear comes upon me, I choose to fight it with all I have within me. I am not talking about my personal inner strength here. I am speaking of the prayerful use of Scripture and lots of prayer. I DO ask God to grant me courage and take away my fear. This is why it leaves me. Not through my power or will but through His. I believe He answers my prayer because it is His will that I not walk in fear.
So, this is not about my free will, it is about making choices to either sin or not to sin.
About Job, I know that Job was an upright man. It is not my intention to harshly criticize Job.
In the KJV, he is called perfect:
H8535
תּם
tâm
tawm
From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically gentle, dear: - coupled together, perfect, plain, undefiled, upright.
However, I think people tend to take this too far. You said that Job did no wrong. Only Jesus Christ walked a perfect life. Job did not. He was a man and the Scripture tells us that all men fall short and it also said that all he feared came upon him. Since I know from 365 other Scriptures that we are commanded NOT to fear, then Job, although upright and moral, was not perfect because none of us are.
Hopefully I did not offend either. We may certainly disagree on this point.
;)
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I always thought that God gave permission for Satan to do anything he wanted to Job except kill him. To prove Job love God more than anything or anyone. God told Satan that no matter what he did to Job,he would not curse Him. I don't know for sure but I don't think Job did anything to God in order that God had to punish him. Which leads me to a question that has bother me for a long time. Why would God do this to Job? What purpose did He have by putting Job through this? God created evil, God created Satan and Satan had to get permission from God before touching him.(Job) What was the purpose for this suffering?
Darren
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I totally agree with you that all have sinned. I would be foolish to think otherwise. But I also believe that God can bring us to a point where sin no longer has dominion in our lives. I believe this is where Job was in his life. Im sure Job willingly sinned before God changed him. But it seems that Scripture is telling us of a time when Job no longer willingly sinned. I truly believe the Scriptures when they say
Job 1:1 A man there hath been in the land of Uz--Job his name--and that man hath been perfect and upright--both fearing God, and turning aside from evil.
Even after God did this to Job's family, which Job knew it was God, the Scriptures say this
Job 1:22 In all this Job hath not sinned, nor given folly to God.
After all that God caused Satan to give Job painful boils. We can see Who Job is fearful of.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me; their fury is drinking my spirit; the terrors of God are set against me.
I agree the Scriptures say many times not to fear, but they also say to fear God. Is this a contradiction? Or maybe a two different kinds of fear? Two different translations of fear?
Do you really believe Job was fearful of anything besides God? If the Scriptures say he was perfect and flawless and without sin at this time in his life, there could be only one thing he could be possibly afraid of, and that would be God. If he feared anything else during this time in his life wouldnt that be sin? When Im fearful of my kids getting hurt, im saying I dont trust God, and that is a sin. I must repent of that. And trust that no matter what happens to my kids good or bad it wasnt in my control, but in Gods control. God's will is perfect no matter what happens to my kids. Thats not to say it wouldnt hurt. If I curse Him for hurting my kids that would be a sin, but if I thank Him for the trial, and do nothing but praise Him like Job then I can be blessed and receive a even more than I had before.
You said " how many times do people get what they fear?" I personally dont believe there is anything I can do that would cause God to either curse me or bless me.
Joh 15:5 I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
I never once said that you Linny believed in free will. You said, "when we choose NOT to fear." If I misunderstood you, please I humbly ask for your forgivness.
As for everything else I think I will believe in the Scriptures. Please no offense intended.
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
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Darren, I have that very same question! :-\
I lost my mentor suddenly 4 years ago. She was the most loved woman I've ever known and her ministry (outside the church) was huge. She was the healthiest person I've ever known as well and took better care of herself than anyone I know. Yet, at 61, she dropped dead. Many of us were crushed by the loss and none of us can fathom why God would take her. I was angry with God for a long time. Then I did as she taught me and I released her and the need to know why.
I often think this is what I have to do where Job is concerned.
George, you asked, "Do you really believe Job was fearful of anything besides God?" That's a great question.
Since we know everything he feared came upon him, we know that he feared losing his family, losing his wealth, and losing his health. If he only feared God then he feared that God would take these things from him? I don't have that kind of fear of God. I don't understand that kind of fear of my Heavenly Father so I can't say that it is a healthy, sinless fear.
I would have to do some more study to Scripturally answer this.
"I personally don't believe there is anything I can do that would cause God to either curse me or bless me. "
But this is what I found quickly...
Deu 11:25 No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you.
Deu 11:26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
Deu 11:27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today,
Deu 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known. "
And...
Gen 27:12 "Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be mocking him and bring a curse upon myself and not a blessing."
It doesn't set right in my Spirit to think God would ever "curse" me. He is my Dad and as a parent I would never curse my children. I am certainly not even close to having the kind of love God has.
I know that my trials bring me closer to being more like Him, but I don't consider my trials a curse but a blessing. Because when I come out of them, I come out stronger.
Again, all my oh, so humble opinion from my reading of the Scriptures...
:)
In Love,
Linny
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Job had reach a place of perfect in where he was. Line upon line precept upon precept. He had every thing a man could want in this world? wealth, land, family, respect, and Godliness. God began to do a deeper work in him and took all that away from him. It was a letting go of the earthly things. It was a death. What was the results of that?
Job 42:2 I know that Thou canst do every thing, and that no purpose can be withholden from Thee.
Job 42:3 Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech Thee, and I will speak; I will demand of Thee, and declare Thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I had heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth Thee;
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor my words, and repent, seeing I am dust and ashes.
and what did Job do after that?
Job 42:13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
Job 42:14 And he called the name of the first, Jemimah; and the name of the second, Keziah; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch.
Job 42:15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
he gave his daughter the same equal rights as his sons. Land inheritance. It was unheard of at that time. With land inheritance came authority.
I do not know if Jesus was a sickly man. This is too hard for my understanding at this time. He did bear our infirmaties.
By the power of the HOly Spirit was he able to overcome them? I don't see how he could of carried the whole world sickness and not be dead. There is something more here. The scriptures do say in the heavenly there will be no more sickness. Is that a clue? Peggy
one more thing a few years back i had a girlfriend, she was more like a mother figure to me, we were very close. She started dying of lymphoma cancer. Knots started appearing on her body like tumors. knotts started appearing on my body as well. Never happen to me since. I showed her the knots and she told me to cut it out. That i could not carry her sickness and i had to let her go she was dying. It was a different time. I let her go and the knots left me. This really did happen. I love her very much
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Hi All---------
In whom did Job believe his righteousness abided?We read God's response to Job.
Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Note Jobs words when face to face with the Almighty where before......
Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
Job 27:2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Job 27:4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Job 27:5 God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.
Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.
My righteousness?my integrity?---filthy rags all -- Elihu the true fiend points this out in chapter 34
much love-----------knuckle
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Hi Darren, you ask what the purpose was for Job's suffering? Personally I think it was in part to show us how its done. How to suffer rightgeously. Just like Jesus taught us how to live and die rightgeously. Also to show us what we can expect when we are faithful to Him no matter what happens. We will have our reward after all is said an done, as long as we are faithful Him. I hope this helps.
Linny, no where does it say in Job that he was afraid of losing his family or his possesions, or wealth or his health. All he said was, that which he feared the most has come upon him. I believe that it was God that he feared the most. I think that if we are living a godly life then there is nothing to fear but God. If you cant see it written plainly, I cant make you see it. I also want you to know this is nothing personal, Im not trying to be right for the sake of being right. I only do this for sake of the Truth as it is written plainly.
Your Friend in Christ, George D.
P.S. This is my last post on this subject, and it has been a huge blessing.
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Thanks George D. I can see clearly now. I use to think God let Satan do this to Job in order to show him how good of a servant of the Lord he was. Now I see It was a lesson for us. Never give up or doubt in the Lord.
Darren
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Was Jesus Ever Sick?
The Bible does not tell us. So why not leave it as it is. Getting a cold doesn't come from sin. It comes from germs.
The Holy Scriptures are becoming clearer and plainer all the time. This is precisely what God prophesied would happen as we approach the End of the Age. That time is just on the horizon.
In the meantime, we should dispense the real Gospel of Jesus Christ to this world. Believe me, there is very little of the basic substance of the Gospel being taught today. What we see in this world is a watered-down version of the Gospel that is given to please and to amuse (in a frivolous sense) the sentiments of humankind. We are provided with wonderful and often spectacular "church services," but there is very little teaching of the fundamentals of the Scripture.
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George,
This is taken from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007, under the title "Who and What Is Jesus?"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Luke 4:22 …And they said, "Is not this Joseph's Son?"
v. 23 And He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to Me this proverb, 'Physician, heal Yourself.’
Did you get that? Doubtless He said, your going to say that to Me. Why? He healed people, right? But He was sick and diseased! So your going to say to Me, well if you’re the great Physician and You're healing all these people, surely you're going to say to Me, “Physician, heal Yourself.”
Christ had a burden to bare. He was nothing to look at though, sickly and diseased, “a tender shoot out of dry ground” (Isa 53:2), sick, diseased with infirmaries.
Now it says in Isa 53:3, “He is despised and rejected by others, a Man of suffering (Heb.-pain).” Because when we say suffering, right away we think of some spiritual thing. You know He suffered persecution and things of that nature. It’s still suffering, but the word is pain. Why was He in pain? Because He had infirmaries. Is this a different Jesus than you have been thinking about?
Isa 53:3 “...and as One from whom men hide their faces…” that’s not what it says in the Hebrew, it should say “As One who hides His face,” Imagine the Son of God, Creator of the universe and in a body that’s uncomely, diseased, infirmaries and pain. It’s like when you go through a crowd, you don’t want to call attention to yourself, because there’s nothing here to see, you know.
Isa 53:3 “… He was despised, and we held Him of no account. V. 4 ….. and carried our diseases;”
Do you understand where this says He was tempted in all ways as we, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). And we think once in a while a pretty girl passed Him, He had to say, well I’ll look the other way. No! This is a whole lot more real than that.
He carried our diseases, oh. They will say, no He went to the cross for our diseases. No, He carried them in His body. And now is where they say, God just really beat the living day lights out of Him? That we count Him stricken down and afflicted? Who would say that?! It says WE. It doesn’t say God struck Him down. That is blaspheme. WE accounted Him stricken down and afflicted, we that’s a people. When they saw Him, they said 'this Man is being cursed of God, look at the pathetic thing. God is cursing this man bad, I wonder what He did wrong.' And then He would heal the people.
I mean it wasn’t the first time where He said, I know your all looking at Me saying, “heal Yourself Physician.” That must have come up many times, you know. It’s not in the Bible though it says;
John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
I mean how many hundreds of times did someone say, Lord you’ve healed me, I’m whole, why doesn’t God heal You? He would say that’s not My job to be healed and walk around whole and handsome, fortified and all that. He came to carry your diseases. I heal you, but I carry them in My body. WE account Him stricken down by God and afflicted, because that’s what you would conclude and that’s what people would look at.
Hope this helps.
René
Brian,
The scriptures do tell us whether Jesus was sick or not. Here is a great post from Rene from this very thread that covers that subject.
Also, what prophecy are you referring to that states 'the scriptures are becoming clearer and plainer all the time'? 1 Cor. 13:8 states that knowledge will 'vanish away'.
Thanks,
Marques
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Wow, Brian, that was a great rebuttal. I didnt put much thought into the paper by Ray (i was more interested in something else), but you have sparked my interest to study up on that. You did exactly what Ray tells everyone to do and that is to "not to just take his word for it, check the scriptures yourself".
Im not saying right now you or Ray is right, that is not my place but i will study this too and hopefully God will open up my eyes to see what is Truth.
Has anyone showed this rebuttal to Ray, it would be interesting to see his rebuttal?
Anthony
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If you read Isa53:3 He is speaking of Jesus. The first word is He, the H is capital and it says He is despised. I look up the word despised on e-sword.It says (baw-zaw) to disesteem, despise, disdain, contemp, scorn and vile person. Rejected(khaw-dale) vacant, frail,destitute ceasing. A man with sorrows,(anguish, affliction,grief, pain. Acquainted( to know). With Grief(malady, anxiety,calamity and diseased). Reading the text with these knew found words it take on a clear understanding of Jesus. What do y'all think?
Darren
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What is pleasing to the natural man, health, wealth, worldly wisdom and status are nothing to God. Jesus as a man did not possess the things the world desires, Satan offered it all to Jesus who promptly rejected it and commanded Satan to depart.
The sacrifice that Jesus made was the fulfillment of the animal sacrifices, the spotless animals were a type/shadow of the spiritual spotlessness, the perfection that is Christ, what the animals foreshadowed in physical perfection Christ fulfilled in spiritual perfection.
Jesus did not sacrifice a perfect physical body, He sacrificed a perfect spiritual heart.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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If you read Isa53:3 He is speaking of Jesus. The first word is He, the H is capital and it says He is despised. I look up the word despised on e-sword.It says (baw-zaw) to disesteem, despise, disdain, contemp, scorn and vile person. Rejected(khaw-dale) vacant, frail,destitute ceasing. A man with sorrows,(anguish, affliction,grief, pain. Acquainted( to know). With Grief(malady, anxiety,calamity and diseased). Reading the text with these knew found words it take on a clear understanding of Jesus. What do y'all think?
Darren
Excellent points Darren!
Peace,
Joe
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I dont know if anyone read the post by Brian that got moved but i think its both, he was in pain, sickness, and afflicted physically, and also spotless without blemish, spiritually, a worthy sacrifice to God. reference Malachi 1
Brian i guess that was mainly for you. Look at it like this----
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Maybe physically he was what is stated in Isa 53, but we all know spiritually He was spotless.
Tell me what you think, Brain
If i crossed the line with this post Kat or any of the Mods im sorry it wont happen again
In Jesus
Anthony
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ahh you beat me to it Joe ;D
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Thanks Joe: I was quite hastaint to post that thread. After being on Bible-Truth and reading Ray's teachings I realize that some of these words have a different meaning from what i think the meaning of a word is (in English). For instints the word sorrows I know what it means to me in my brain but in the original text it means something a little different. (sorrows- anguish,, affliction, grief, pain). Affliction and pain is what made a big difference in that verse>Isa 53:3. I like to know as much info as possible on any given subject.
Darren
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Hi Anthony,
I am sure you will return the favor soon! ;)
Hey Darren,
That should be what all of us are doing, seeking His Wisdom, searching all matters pertaining to our Lord and our salvation. I will never forget the intensity of that moment at the Conference when Ray brought forth the painful, lonely and isolated life of Christ, He didn't only suffer for those few days leading up to His crucifixion.
In the life He led will there will be no room for any man to say or think, Christ had it easier than me.
Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;769 but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
G769
ἀσθένεια
astheneia
as-then'-i-ah
From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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We thank God for teaching us not to fear and for giving us the faith needed to walk through these trials in victory! We ask and believe for what we need and we get it. God is faithful!
Wow, Linny. Something about your statement hit me just now like a ton of bricks. I can't describe it as a thought because it was more or less a sensation of power. I'd like that to happen more often in my life.
I don't do it on a conscious level most of the time, but when I think about it intentionally, I know in my heart that fear is the predominant emotion in me almost every day. It sucks the life right out of you. In my head I know that God has me on a path, but I wonder if I don't fear what He's got planned for me. That I can "know" of God's utter Supremacy and still react as though I don't is kinda scary. Don't like that one bit.
See, I just did it again - used the word scary. I gotta quit it.
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thanks joe
dewey and paula in the spirit love ya.
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this is something to think that Jesus was suffering maybe sickly why would any one want to be with Him?It doesn't make sense to me. how could it be? how could he have done the things he did if he was sickly? My husband is very ill, his heart is bad and he is not able to do and go like he did when his heart was better. Can there not be something more to this? peggy
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thanks joe
dewey and paula in the spirit love ya.
Hi Dewey & Paula,
You are very welcome.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi Peggy,
The following verses have been quoted previously in this thread but please look at them again;
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form8389 nor comeliness;1926 and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows,4341 and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised and we esteemed him not.
H8389
תּאר
tô'ar
to'-ar
From H8388; outline, that is, figure or appearance: - + beautiful, X comely, countenance, + fair, X favoured, form, X goodly, X resemble, visage.
H1926
הדר
hâdâr
haw-dawr'
From H1921; magnificence, that is, ornament or splendor: - beauty, comeliness, excellency, glorious, glory, goodly, honour, majesty.
H4341
מכאבה מכאוב מכאב
mak'ôb mak'ôb mak'ôbâh
mak-obe', mak-obe', mak-o-baw'
From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow.
Luk 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
I can understand the difficulty of overcoming the worldly, churchian, Hollywood image of Jesus being the quintessential leading man but when we look at all the scriptures that have been quoted in this thread and in Ray's article I have yet to see one that describes Christ as a beautiful physical specimen, we do not get that image from His Word, we get it from church (and worldly) tradition.
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name:
As far as the ability to work through pain I was a first hand witness to my own parents who worked through pain their entire lives. My Dad was born (1918) with a deformed hip and left leg, it was amputated when he was 2 years old and was in and out of the hospital until about 8 or 9 years old from all the complications of the rather primitive surgery as well as the hip issue that plagued him (in silence) his entire life.
He worked for close to forty years in a low to average paying job with arthritis and a heart condition. He may have missed 5 or 6 days during that entire time as well as working every hour of overtime he was offered. The accumulation of unused sick days helped him to retire a couple years earlier than he otherwise would have been eligible for.
Thankfully he did get those extra couple years as shortly after he retired he was discovered to have colon cancer, a very severe colon cancer which he managed to survive for about 3 years but in a very weak state.
Not once, ever in my life did I hear him say "woe is me" or seek sympathy from anyone, not ever. He worked hard, provided as best he could and did not complain about his afflictions. He was not a religious man, I don't even know the degree of faith he had but he was a real inspiration as an overcomer.
With all that said I do not believe my Dad suffered more than my Lord.
Christ set aside His glory to walk among men as a man, he did not turn stones into bread (or any other food) when fasting in the wilderness, he did not use any of His power for His own self interest, only for the glory of His Father. He not only humbled Himself by becoming lower than the angels as a man but took on man's afflictions as well as suffering temptations, all without sin. Therein lies His beauty, by His suffering, by His love, by His humble spirit, by His sicknesses and pain we are made whole and acceptable to our Father.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Very well put Joe.
He was not just here to share the truth with the world and die on the cross, I believe He wanted to know first hand about this evil experience that man must go through.
I think this verse is key to undestanding what Jesus experienced in His life on earth, in a few different translations.
Isa 53:3 Despised was he, and forsaken of men, Man of pains and familiar with sickness,—Yea, like one from whom the face is hidden, Despised, and we esteemed him not. (Rotherham)
Isa 53:3 Despised is He, and shunned by men, a man of pains and knowing illness. And, as One concealing His face from us, despised is He, and we judge Him of no account." (CLV)
Isa 53:3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not. (YLT)
Isa 53:3 He is dispised and abhorred of men, he is such a man as hath good experience of sorowes and infirmities: We haue reckened hym so vile, that we hyd our faces from hym. (Bishop 1568)
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected--a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care. (NLT)
Isa 53:3 He was hated and rejected; his life was filled with sorrow and terrible suffering. No one wanted to look at him. We despised him and said, "He is a nobody!" (CEV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jeff, You made my day. I know EXACTLY the feeling you had. I refer to them as "getting a revelation."
I heard this once and I loved it. FEAR is False Evidence Appearing Real.
The Word says I am not to fear anything man can do to me. It says God will never leave nor forsake me. I meditate on these truths to keep fear away. It does come upon me, believe me, but now only for really big stuff. And I have to spend a lot of time in the Word to keep it at bay.
Dealing with fear is something that God has really worked hard on my husband and I in the past few years. The hardest is releasing those kids. Whew! But I do it daily it seems. Perhaps He is beginning to make this a project for you?
My mentor told me once that fear would be the predominate emotion in the last days and that faith and fear are opposites. I am a much more at peace person now.
:)
Bless you,
Lin
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Dealing with fear is something that God has really worked hard on my husband and I in the past few years. The hardest is releasing those kids. Whew! But I do it daily it seems. Perhaps He is beginning to make this a project for you?
Lol. Yes it's a project. I have many.... :)
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Wow, Brian, that was a great rebuttal. I didnt put much thought into the paper by Ray (i was more interested in something else), but you have sparked my interest to study up on that. You did exactly what Ray tells everyone to do and that is to "not to just take his word for it, check the scriptures yourself".
Im not saying right now you or Ray is right, that is not my place but i will study this too and hopefully God will open up my eyes to see what is Truth.
Has anyone showed this rebuttal to Ray, it would be interesting to see his rebuttal?
Anthony
Thank you Anthony,
I too am curious if anyone has shown it to Ray. I guess we will never know. I find it interesting that it was yanked instead of refuted. There is a lot to be learned and each of us, including myself, has to do so by degrees. If anyone wants to teach me, in a gentle loving spirit, then please do so.
For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
(Ephesians 1:15-23)
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Brian,
I asked the Mod and she only moved it because they said it should of been directed to Ray directly, but out of all the emails i have read that Ray has replied to and that are on the BT website yours was the most well thought out one and scriptural and actually had substance. Great job!!
So what did you think of the reply i put or what some others had put? I was probably the only one who got to see what you posted because it stay posted too long.
In Jesus
Anthony
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oops, that should say that it didnt stay posted too long. :D :D :D
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So is the genral feeling is that Jesus was a sickly human, or not? What say you???
Darren
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Hi Brian,
I explained in a pm why I 'yanked' your post, but since it is being discussed let me say this. It is not the purpose of this forum to refute those who come here and teach something different than what Ray has taught. At the 2007 Nashville Conference 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?' ( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ) Ray speaks a good deal about what he felt the Scriptures say about 'Did Jesus ever get sick.' Your post clearly shows that you think differently about this subject.
Now if as Anthony says, but out of all the emails i have read that Ray has replied to and that are on the BT website yours was the most well thought out one and scriptural and actually had substance. and you feel like this, then by all means send it to Ray and let him do his own refuting. We do have a rule, If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.
I hope this does not sound too blunt, I just wanted to explain why this was handled as it was.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I don't know if anyone read the post by Brian that got moved but i think its both, he was in pain, sickness, and afflicted physically, and also spotless without blemish, spiritually, a worthy sacrifice to God. reference Malachi 1
Brian i guess that was mainly for you. Look at it like this----
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Maybe physically he was what is stated in Isa 53, but we all know spiritually He was spotless.
Tell me what you think, Brain
If i crossed the line with this post Kat or any of the Mods im sorry it wont happen again
In Jesus
Anthony
Greetings Anthony,
TRUTH NUMBER 1...First the physical and then the spiritual.
(From Ray's Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word)
We know that the Christ was fully human.(cf 1 Tim 2:5, etc.)
I believe we are all in agreement on this. So I really don't think we need dwell on it.
We also know that the living God would protect him physically. (cf Psa 91:11-12; Mat 4:6; Luk 4:11)
This seems to be where we are having difficulty. I won't repeat what I have already stated. (Because I would actually like all to have an opportunity to, as Ray says, use their God given brain.)
The question as I understand it...
Is it possible for the Christ to be physically the description in Isaiah 53 and be spiritually unblemished?
The only answer I can give is what I have previously stated.
Also, I would like to state that if truth # 1 is of any value it would and should be applied to this question.
Much Love in Christ
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Hi Brian,
I look at it this way: Ray used scripture to prove his point and you did also. So what i've been meditating on these last couple of days since your post is how can we put yours and Rays proof scriptures together. I've been trying to find scriptures to help with your point and Rays. Well let me try to get to it.
All of Mal 1 has to be God looking at the heart and intentions of the Isrealites when they had to sacrifice. Lets just examine the hearts of them first. Well i was going to explain verse by verse but i am sure you can see how God is showing the heart of the Isrealites when it came to sacrifices and even their heart towards Him.
They--were ungrateful
had no respect
showed contempt by placing defile food on his altar
thought the sacrifices were burdensome and something to sneer at
were cheaters and robbers of God
Mal 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
lekh'-em
From H3898; food (for man or beast), especially bread, or grain (for making it): - ([shew-]) bread, X eat, food, fruit, loaf, meat, victuals. See also H1036.
shool-khawn'
From H7971; a table (as spread out); by implication a meal: - table.
baw-zaw'
A primitive root; to disesteem: - despise, disdain, contemn (-ptible), + think to scorn, vile person.
What symbolizes bread--who is the bread of Life? Jesus. What is Jesus? The Word of God. What could the Isrealites been defiling? His Word and bringing this into the temple. where is the temple? We are his temple.
So look at v7 like they are saying "the meal/bread (Word) of the Lord is like a vile person"
v 14 pretty much summarizes all of chapter 1 showing how the heart of the Isrealites were. They made the vow to keep Gods Word and but obviously they didnt.
Now how can we apply this to Christ and how Christ heart was toward God.
Was He ungrateful?
Did He have respect?
Place defile food on his altar?
think He being the sacrifice for all burdensome and something to sneer at?
A cheater or robber of God?
We all know the answer to each of those and the scriptures to back them up.
Brian remember where i posted that his Words are Spirit. Look at Mal 1 like this and you will see the spiritual in it and how Christ still could have carried our sicknesses and still be an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord.
Also v13 and 14 when applied to Christ, who's hand is offering the sacrifice of Christ? Is he the acceptible male who kept his vow to the Lord? You know the answer.
IMO this is how what you and what Ray revealed, through Him, that all of his scripture is one and their are no contradictions.
I hope this helps and i didnt stretch it to far.
In Jesus
Anthony
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Hey Brian,
What's (this apostrophe thing is killing me) :-X your take on what I put above. I'm (ugh there it is again) :-X very interested in what you think.
Anthony