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=> Testimonies / Prayer Requests / Fellowship => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on August 04, 2014, 06:32:13 PM
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Truly, you all here are the only ones who understand me. My family does not understand me, my lover does not, the world does not. Jesus wasn't joking when He said
Luke 21:17 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."
Mark 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
My world is crumbling around me and not a single person understands how I am who I am in the midst of it all. My own flesh and blood brother said its so easy to hate me because of it. To be angry with me.
Part of me is ashamed to share this with you all, I don't know why. I feel like i'm always burdening you all with my life and you all seem so strong compared to me. Maybe I am simply fragile emotionally. I don't know..
My lover has told me that there is nothing I Have done wrong, that I am a good man, that I am good to her and her daughter but that my touch makes her angry for some reason. She cannot be close to me, feel intimate with me because the love is gone but she says it is absolutely none of my doing. And she has no clue why she feels this way towards me, she claims she doesn't understand it.
I have never felt more alone...
Psalm 143:3 "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."
If there is any prayer that I would have answered it would be that the Lord does not dismantle the family I (Well that HE has) have built (through me) over these past few years, that somehow my lover could get past whatever it is that is making her angry to my touch and feeling far removed from me.
The rest is as it has been since the beginning, minus the revelation that I'm easy to hate.
Your brother,
Alex
P.S. Yes... i'm still working on applications but all these things don't make it easy to focus on them. :/
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Alex, Alex,
I do not want to add to your anguish. But this is a discussion forum on a website called Bible-Truths.com.
Being a pre-med student, I know that you are no dummy.
So when you tell us about your lover, the implication is that the woman is not your wife, but that you are having (or had) sex with her.
Is that implication a reality? If so, are you interested in any of our comments from a Scriptural perspective?
John
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Alex, Alex,
I do not want to add to your anguish. But this is a discussion forum on a website called Bible-Truths.com.
Being a pre-med student, I know that you are no dummy.
So when you tell us about your lover, the implication is that the woman is not your wife, but that you are having (or had) sex with her.
Is that implication a reality? If so, are you interested in any of our comments from a Scriptural perspective?
John
Hit me where it hurts John. Do it... open rebuke is better than secret love.
If It means anything, we have, well.... we HAD intentions of getting married. I'm not sure where that is going right now due to whats happened.
If I lose her, I lose the baby girl I have cared for these past three years as a father. She is four years old now. She is also very much the most precious gift the Lord has given me other than my faith.
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Alex, Alex,
I do not want to add to your anguish. But this is a discussion forum on a website called Bible-Truths.com.
Being a pre-med student, I know that you are no dummy.
So when you tell us about your lover, the implication is that the woman is not your wife, but that you are having (or had) sex with her.
Is that implication a reality? If so, are you interested in any of our comments from a Scriptural perspective?
John
Hit me where it hurts John. Do it... open rebuke is better than secret love.
If It means anything, we have, well.... we HAD intentions of getting married. I'm not sure where that is going right now due to whats happened.
If I lose her, I lose the baby girl I have cared for these past three years as a father. She is four years old now. She is also very much the most precious gift the Lord has given me other than my faith.
I'm just a big dumb accountant. What do I know of such things?
I think you already know what I would say. So I'll just shut up.
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A lot of people these days don't care much for marriage; "just a piece of paper," they say. I know Ray (and most of us here) do not agree with that sentiment, and I can personally testify to the power of that "piece of paper." My wife and I have had some fiery trials in our four years together. Had we not been married, it is possible--even probable-- we would have separated. It would have been much easier to part ways if we were merely "dating" or merely "lovers." But the "piece of paper" held us together. We were committed to each other and committed to our relationship, and we were determined, with God's help, to honor that commitment.
Of course, it doesn't work out that way for everybody. Many people don't have a problem saying "Adios" even after signing the piece of paper. But for us, it was a bond that held us together.
I guess the point I'm trying to make--painful though it may be--is to not be surprised if your lover wants to end this. It's a lot easier to end it--and induces less guilt--without having committed to one another in marriage, even if you have taken on the father role wholeheartedly. Obviously I don't know your lover or know what she's thinking, but what you quoted here--"the love is gone but she says it is absolutely none of my doing"--sounds like a slightly fancier version of the universal, candy-coated excuse for breaking up: "It's not you, it's me."
You can pray that God will not dismantle this, and hope that your prayer will be answered. But there is another prayer that is even more important that you should want answered, and indeed must be answered. And I think you know what that prayer is. ;)
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A lot of people these days don't care much for marriage; "just a piece of paper," they say. I know Ray (and most of us here) do not agree with that sentiment, and I can personally testify to the power of that "piece of paper." My wife and I have had some fiery trials in our four years together. Had we not been married, it is possible--even probable-- we would have separated. It would have been much easier to part ways if we were merely "dating" or merely "lovers." But the "piece of paper" held us together. We were committed to each other and committed to our relationship, and we were determined, with God's help, to honor that commitment.
Of course, it doesn't work out that way for everybody. Many people don't have a problem saying "Adios" even after signing the piece of paper. But for us, it was a bond that held us together.
I guess the point I'm trying to make--painful though it may be--is to not be surprised if your lover wants to end this. It's a lot easier to end it--and induces less guilt--without having committed to one another in marriage, even if you have taken on the father role wholeheartedly. Obviously I don't know your lover or know what she's thinking, but what you quoted here--"the love is gone but she says it is absolutely none of my doing"--sounds like a slightly fancier version of the universal, candy-coated excuse for breaking up: "It's not you, it's me."
You can pray that God will not dismantle this, and hope that your prayer will be answered. But there is another prayer that is even more important that you should want answered, and indeed must be answered. And I think you know what that prayer is. ;)
I'm sorry Jesse, I'm afraid I don't follow you. The only prayer I know is always ever answered is "Thy will be done."
Painful doesn't begin to describe losing the last three years of your life, losing what is very much your own child, and for reasons that cannot be articulated to you. She is my daughter. She is as real as a daughter could be, as we all are sons and daughters of our real Father, so is she my daughter. I know I have never been in control of my life and that is why I haven't lost all hope that this issue cannot be resolved but many moments in my life recently have come to a crescendo and all during a difficult period that have made matters worse.
Marriage was not done for many various reasons and I know the Lord knows our reasons for not doing it. I cannot know if He looked upon our relationship with disapproval or if He we were blessed in it, all I know is that to me, the reasons made sense. They included financial reasons. They included the fact that she was married prior to our relationship but due to infidelity on her husband's part and abuse the marriage was ended. She was hesitant to jump right back into another marriage after what she experienced and I respected that. The other major fact was that as boyfriend and girlfriend, we needed to actually date. In this day and age, you don't just pick a girl and say I'm going to marry her! You date, find out whether you two are a match, can you live together? etc...
My plan was to propose to her once I got accepted into medical school as a promise that we would be together and a sign of my commitment to her.
Its amazing how the whole world can turn on you in a heartbeat though. My own brother I never thought could feel so angry towards me to the point of hatred, has and does at times feel that way towards me.
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You got it. "Thy will be done" is what I was implying at the end. And we both know that is the one prayer that is always answered. And in this time of pain, I hope you can take some comfort in that. Whether you lose your love or marry her, it is God's will that will be done. You may have 50 years of happiness with her, or you may lose her next week; but either way, it will be God's will. And what's more, it will be for your good.
You date, find out whether you two are a match, can you live together? etc...
I disagree with that last part. Though many people think otherwise, it's entirely possible to get married without having lived together. It is possible to have a very happy marriage, even if there are some growing pains as you learn how to live together after the wedding. In my own opinion, when people say "We have to find out if we can live together..." what they are really saying is "We want to find out if we like having sex with each other," or "We want to have sex without all the fuss of getting married." My wife had a friend who could not believe she married me without first finding out if we were "sexually compatible." Incredible! Have things really gotten that bad?
Anyway, are the angry feelings of your brother and the angry feelings of your love somehow connected? Or do you think they are entirely independent of one another? And is it for "[Christ's] name's sake" that they feel that way? Either way, I know this is rough for you, and you will be in my prayers.
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You got it. "Thy will be done" is what I was implying at the end. And we both know that is the one prayer that is always answered. And in this time of pain, I hope you can take some comfort in that. Whether you lose your love or marry her, it is God's will that will be done. You may have 50 years of happiness with her, or you may lose her next week; but either way, it will be God's will. And what's more, it will be for your good.
You date, find out whether you two are a match, can you live together? etc...
I disagree with that last part. Though many people think otherwise, it's entirely possible to get married without having lived together. It is possible to have a very happy marriage, even if there are some growing pains as you learn how to live together after the wedding. In my own opinion, when people say "We have to find out if we can live together..." what they are really saying is "We want to find out if we like having sex with each other," or "We want to have sex without all the fuss of getting married." My wife had a friend who could not believe she married me without first finding out if we were "sexually compatible." Incredible! Have things really gotten that bad?
Anyway, are the angry feelings of your brother and the angry feelings of your love somehow connected? Or do you think they are entirely independent of one another? And is it for "[Christ's] name's sake" that they feel that way? Either way, I know this is rough for you, and you will be in my prayers.
To your disagreement, I say I disagree Jesse. For me it was never about finding out if we were sexually compatible. I'm not sure I ever shared with you all the family I grew up in but if I haven't then it is worth noting that it is by far the most dysfunctional and completely broken family I know of anyone in my life. That being said, seeing my parents fight physically and verbally is enough to drive anyone to be weary of marriage or at the very least, afraid to jump into it head first. I had to make sure that we would not end up as my parents did before I committed my life to it. Marriage i take very seriously and wanted to make sure it would last a lifetime.
As to my brother, it is in part related but it is also not related. It is very difficult to explain here without giving you the dynamics of my family life and I am a bit hesitant to reveal all its dysfunctions and problems on the forums. The reason it is related is because my girlfriend and I live with my parents where my brothers also lives. I can explain this in greater detail to you over the phone if you'd like to talk about it there but otherwise, at this point in time, i'd rather not divulge everything about my family here.
Thank you for engaging me in this discussion Jesse. In the end I am only human and all these growing pains, though they are for my benefit, still hurt. I just don't understand how all of you seem so much stronger. Dealing with your issues in private and between God. Me... I always call upon your help here, I feel like a burden sometimes. Thanks for putting up with me.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Alex,
I want to be encouraging, but we know nobody really lives that charmed life we all wish we had. Facing the reality that this life is for learning about good and evil makes you fully aware that there is going to be the good, but also the bad. And it sure seems to be a lot of bad... but then there is that good and that makes it all worth while, doesn't it?
I think what makes a difference is attitude, try not to dwell on the negative possibilities, or better known as worry. Christ made this point a good many times.
Matt 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Yes we all must face problems and trials, it is how we learn... that is for sure, because we all have built in weaknesses of one kind or another. Our own weaknesses are bad enough, but we are also many times effected by the weaknesses of others, making life less predictable and more difficult. So are we to lose hope of really having any kind of a good life? I don't think so, as I was saying there is the good parts in life.
I know from my personal experiences that I did have to go through some real difficulties, it's never easy and while in the midst of these things it does seem overwhelming. But if our trials were easy, would they really be a trial? So are the trials and struggles worth those oh so fleeting good times? Absolutely, the good experiences, the people I have known and the joys make me so thankful, and I'm so happy to have had them, it certainly has been worth it.
I guess we all know that bad things happen to good people, I think the most we can do is try to live a righteous life and hope to at lease minimize the negative consequences from wrong behavior. And of course this is not easy, you need help, a lot of help and you know where that comes from, therefore PRAY!
Mat 6:27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
v. 28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
Mat 6:31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
v. 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
v. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
Knowing the truth gives you a great advantage, do the best you can and then when you slip and stumble throw yourself on God's mercy, it far exceeds any and every sin we may comment.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Did you know that the Apostle John is 'traditionally,' believed to be the youngest disciple, perhaps as young as 16-20 at the time of the crucifixion of Christ? And there is a possibility that some of the other disciples were under 20 (except for Peter was known to be older). Reason being in Matthew 17 to pay a required tax Jesus instructs Peter to going fishing and he would find the coin to pay it. Peter does so and finds it in the mouth of the fish, and was instructed to pay the tax for himself and Jesus only. So this could mean that the rest did not need to pay the required (tax law-Exodus 30:14-15) and were under the age of 20 or perhaps they had already paid it. Though accounts differ concerning their ages I think the idea of some of them being a young age is very interesting.
Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
v. 5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
v. 6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
v. 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes there are good things in life. I have known those good things. I am thankful for them, for however long they lasted.
Thank you for the encouragement Kat... I will do my best to "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let my requests be made known to God;
that the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard my heart and mind through Christ Jesus."
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Hi Alex.
This verse came to mind when reading your posts
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Keep digging into the truth over and over and then over again and then some more.
Times of testing will come and we all go through but the end result is perfect so be at peace.
And remember........
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Grace be with you
Rhys
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Alex:
You made an interesting comment. "I just don't understand how all of you seem so much stronger". That's an illusion. We AREN'T stronger than you. Many of us are older than you, and have some years of experience behind us, Glory to Him. When I was your age, I was just entering into Babylon hardcore, with my local southern baptist church. This was 22 years ago. See? You are WAY AHEAD of where I was at your age, with the spiritual understanding that the Lord has given you. Praise the Lord!
Your girlfriend says she doesn't understand why she recoils from you. This is His Sovereignty at work in her life, and also in your life, and all of our lives. Everything we do falls under His Lordship, including our disobedience. This is exactly how we learn right from wrong, over a long period of time. A LONG period of time. "Here a little, there a little…" And remember… we all do indeed have problems, but you are one of the FEW who opens up to the whole world of the struggles God has placed in your life. Glory to Him :)
Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God…" If the Lord wills, may He cause you to meditate on His Sovereignty.
Dean
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Wise words AwesomeSavior.
Good for all of us to appreciate.
:)
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Hi Alex.
This verse came to mind when reading your posts
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Keep digging into the truth over and over and then over again and then some more.
Times of testing will come and we all go through but the end result is perfect so be at peace.
And remember........
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Grace be with you
Rhys
Thank you Rhys... I just wish sometimes I was stronger, that these things would affect me. That my faith were more than just words... :(
God bless,
Alex
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Alex:
You made an interesting comment. "I just don't understand how all of you seem so much stronger". That's an illusion. We AREN'T stronger than you. Many of us are older than you, and have some years of experience behind us, Glory to Him. When I was your age, I was just entering into Babylon hardcore, with my local southern baptist church. This was 22 years ago. See? You are WAY AHEAD of where I was at your age, with the spiritual understanding that the Lord has given you. Praise the Lord!
Your girlfriend says she doesn't understand why she recoils from you. This is His Sovereignty at work in her life, and also in your life, and all of our lives. Everything we do falls under His Lordship, including our disobedience. This is exactly how we learn right from wrong, over a long period of time. A LONG period of time. "Here a little, there a little…" And remember… we all do indeed have problems, but you are one of the FEW who opens up to the whole world of the struggles God has placed in your life. Glory to Him :)
Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God…" If the Lord wills, may He cause you to meditate on His Sovereignty.
Dean
Thank you Dean... I needed to hear these things. Thank you brother.
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Hi Alex.
This verse came to mind when reading your posts
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Keep digging into the truth over and over and then over again and then some more.
Times of testing will come and we all go through but the end result is perfect so be at peace.
And remember........
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Grace be with you
Rhys
Thank you Rhys... I just wish sometimes I was stronger, that these things would affect me. That my faith were more than just words... :(
God bless,
Alex
That's the whole point, they do affect us and achieve the desired result as God has willed. I remember struggling a lot more many years ago but God is at work in us perfecting us. It is difficult and very difficult at times so we need to keep our focus in the right place as this verse below says.
Php 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Blessings
Rhys
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I loved this thread, I love this church.
How I wish I'd had similar mentoring as a younger woman. But this is also of God.
Titus Chapter 2
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
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Here is another passage that may be helpful Alex.
1Pe 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! Because of his great mercy he has granted us a new birth, resulting in an immortal hope through the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, from the dead and to an inheritance kept in heaven for you that can't be destroyed, corrupted, or changed.
Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of this era.
You greatly rejoice in this, even though you have to suffer various kinds of trial for a little while, so that your genuine faith, which is more valuable than gold that perishes when tested by fire, may result in praise, glory, and honor when Jesus, the Messiah, is revealed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you dear sisters. My heart is wounded and broken but the Words of our Father are so powerful to me and they bring me great comfort. I'm holding to Him as best as I know how. Keep them coming if you have them, they are my life line.
With love,
Alex
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Hi Alex. Well God is sovereign and it is Him who worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. And think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened onto you. Because one day;..... Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?...... This is your destiny, think on these things, things above!! My heart is with you Brother!
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The disturbing thing about this thread is the lack of repentance for the underlying sin.
Sorrow and pain over the effects of the sin.
Excuses and excuses to try and justify the sin.
And tea and sympathy from the gallery.
Jesus has already forgiven all sins.
But sin is not removed until there is genuine repentance, which comes from God.
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The disturbing thing about this thread is the lack of repentance for the underlying sin.
Sorrow and pain over the effects of the sin.
Excuses and excuses to try and justify the sin.
And tea and sympathy from the gallery.
Jesus has already forgiven all sins.
But sin is not removed until there is genuine repentance, which comes from God.
John I see what you're saying but don't take it out on your brethren. They are merely trying to comfort me and I am grateful for it. I think there is a time to confront a sin and a time to mourn and a time to comfort. We need to be patient with one another. Don't think ill of your brothers and sisters please, we are not all as forward as you and as courageous to confront ourselves while we yet grieve.
I am now at a crossroads though. I have repented and I am repenting. Though I wish the issue of marriage were more clear to me. What is marriage? A state of affairs recognized by a government? What does a piece of paper mean if the two in marriage are not committed to one another or there is infidelity? If the two in marriage fall out of love? Are these more just in the eyes of God than two who would live together and commit to each other wholly and faithfully without breach of trust and yet not be "married" as recognized by some government body? Tell me John, give me wisdom. What is the truth in such a matter? If in my heart I am wholly committed to her and our family, as a father and husband, do I need a piece of paper to recognize this bond to make it just in God's eyes? Is it not the heart that God searches? Can you explain please? I'm genuinely struggling to understand what God wants in this matter.
I want to do right by God and what is right period. I just don't know what it is in this matter right now. Clarity is needed.
Thank you and God bless,
Alex
P.S. This question is for anyone who can help shed light on the matter.
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Your questions have come up before.
Ray gave an excellent scriptural study of this marriage question in the attached bible study.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html
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Your questions have come up before.
Ray gave an excellent scriptural study of this marriage question in the attached bible study.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html
Dear John,
Thank you for this. It was quite a revelation to hear. I listened to the part 1 audio and was blown away to see the connection of marriage all the way back to adam and eve.
I believe now that I must do what is right by God and cannot live in sin under Him any longer.
I am very fearful and barely have the courage to do what is right but I am praying for strength and guidance in this matter.
I believe I must, at the very least, make an effort for our "espousal" as ray put it, to make this right in God's eyes. I will ask her parents for their blessing to propose to their daughter and if they give it to me, then I will ask her.
She has already told me she would not marry me even if I asked because of how she feels right now but I must trust God and do what is right. This could very well be the needle that breaks the camel's back and push her away for good. I don't think it is right we continue living together if we are not espoused together after having listened to what ray and the scriptures teach on the matter. We must at the very least be promised to one another for marriage. I know espousal is as serious as if we were married but my commitment to her is such as it is now so to me it is all the same.
Again I am terrified to do this because the reality of it is that it may be the end of any hope if she rejects me and tells me that my pushing her has made her mind up for her.
Please pray for me... I don't know if I will seek her parents today but she is returning to stay with me this night and I know now that these things must be made right. I will need prayer and guidance, I am tempted to go now to her father and seek his permission but am not 100% certain.
Please pray for me dear brothers and sisters.
Kindly,
Alex
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Hey Alex,
As I said before, I think the "piece of paper" is quite important. Even though some people with the piece of paper divorce, and others who never marry stay together their whole lives, that doesn't mean we should not make the commitment before God. Saying we don't need the marriage certificate is a convenient excuse for fornication--I think Ray taught us some important things about marriage, and for us who know better, we should take marriage pretty seriously.
You should listen to Part 2 of the marriage talk---in Part 2 he talks more about this issue: is it really just a piece of paper, can we be married without the paper, etc. Here are some of the best parts:
Well what about the email I got. If you just have to say, I love you as a husband and wife, and we’re married. So you could do this the very day you met. The first night… a one night stand, you go to bed and say I take you as my wife or whatever and now you are married? But what if that’s all it is, a one night stand and then you split up. So are you still married? Can you marry somebody else? By this man’s own admission they are husband and wife.
Let’s say they are together a year. After a year of fornicating outside of marriage, they say, ‘let’s take each other as husband and wife. But we’re not going to have a ceremony, we’re not going to swear an oath, we’re not going to have an covenant, we’re not going to have witnesses, we’re not going to have a license, we’re not going to have it done legally, we’re not going to do it by the custom of the land you know. We’ll do it right here in bed.’ Now it’s a year or two later and they hate each other and they split. Does this person really tell me that for the rest of his life, he’s going to consider he’s married to that woman? I mean I may have been born at night, but not last night. He would no more consider himself married.
But now for arguments sake, to fight the system, you come across the super pious and religious and spiritual person and he’s got this spiritual marriage. There doesn’t need to be a marriage, it’s going to just be what he says and what he believes. So if they were together for a year or so, would they get a legal divorce, with a piece of paper? What if she claimed for the rest of his life, half of what he has is hers. Do you think he would go along with that? Probably not. What if he found another that he wanted to marry one night in bed? You think he would first say to his other ‘wife’ lets have a spiritual divorce together?
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alright you and this woman have a child together a daughter 3 years old and are you living together? for how long? is this a common law marriage? is she a Christian? yes christian live together now. i know in relationships sometimes you level off and feel like you don't care for the person as much as before but love is not like what we think it is,which is a movie. Love is more subtle . being there each day doing and living its not romance as much as being a part of someones else life. sometimes a person doesn't know how much they learn to grow with another until that person dies. sharing your lives together with a child is great motivator to be committed to each other. I don't believe the government has the rights on declaring marriages. that is Gods doing. It is always better to make that big step in a relationship by commitment to God. That is what has held my marriage of 30 years together. not the state. divorces destroy families, terribly hurts children ,separation do too. that child needs both her parents. always working together. you have been working very hard to get ahead and become a doctor that is a lot of pressure my last three children has done the same in different fields going through colleges getting their jobs. none of them are marriage, no children nor in a relationship. you have bitten a big bite of the apple in a short time no wonder yo are sooo stressed. i really mean what i have said here. i don't believe you know how much you are doing in a very short time
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I have read that before where Ray talked about marriage. And as usual, I didn't find anything there that I disagree with. I understand the importance of the paper, but that teaching still leaves me with the biggest unanswered question, Where do you get the paper?
Matthew 19:6(KJV)
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
The key here is what God has joined. So how does God join you?
Not to pick, but let's use the Catholic church as an example. They will give you that piece of "paper". If you marry in the Catholic church and get divorced (which is a no no) they will not let you marry again. And I know there are situations where you can remarry. I don't know any of the rules, but it doesn't matter for this issue.
If you get married in an Episcopal or Methodist church and get divorced, then you can get married in the Catholic church. Why? Because according to them since you were never married in the Catholic church to begin with you were never really married. Huh? And if you have children already that doesn't matter.
And then of course there's the body and blood that is part of the ceremony. How does God view this and is He really joining you here?
Just about any other denomination you can name will also give you that piece of paper, but the person performing the needed ceremony, will be preaching some of the most damnable heresies know to mankind. Is God joining you through all that? I don't know.
So, ok, let's just go with a justice of the peace. Well, they might honor any vows you want to say, but does it matter what they believe? They'll marry people from any denomination, and we all know how denominations vary in their beliefs. So is it ok to get married by a JP if he believes people are going to suffer in an eternal hell? Or maybe doesn't even believe in God for all I know. Does God join people under such a person? I don't have an answer.
I'm just glad I'm married now, because if I found Ray's teaching before I met my wife I would not have been able to marry her without searching and learning more. Yet all is of God so I know I'm supposed to be with her.
Not trying to rain on you Alex, your situation isn't exactly stellar. Don't know what I would do if I were you. Maybe I'm really over-thinking this, and some of the wiser people here can fill me in on something I'm missing.
FWIW, I am getting an idea on marriage, but this isn't the place for it, and if I told anyone what I was thinking, they'd call the men in the long white coats. It isn't on the top of my study list atm, but some day I hope to have the time to look into it.
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Jesse, Virginia and Abednego, thank you for your comments.
I especially appreciate the thoughtful perspective you've provided Abednego. I think you make interesting points.
I suppose this is between the Father and myself on this one and no one can really give me a clear cut answer on what to do next. I'm praying and doing my best to obey Him in hopes of some deliverance from this delima.
I did take some steps to speak with her father, who had some harsh words for me but I appreciated his candor. In the end her father told me he doesn't know what I should do but that being engaged doesn't fix problems in and of itself. We have to take steps to address the issues that have caused us to reach this point in our relationship.
I appreciated his wisdom and did agree with him in this regard. However, I cannot ignore God's judgement and chastisement either in this matter. I've done my best in this difficult situation to heed the words of our Lord with the current understanding He has bestowed upon me and by His Grace He will give me His blessing and continue to guide me in what I should do to make this right.
God bless,
Alex
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Alex, if this thread has shown you anything it should remind you that you are not alone. Your God loves you enough to show you the Way, to be the Way, to correct you and discipline you because he loves you. And those of like minds and hearts hurt with you- even though it's easier for us to see where you have strayed from God's wisdom in your life.
I'm so sorry about the little girl who you have raised as your own. I'm so sorry her mother has rejected you and how painful that is. But, my friend, they were never yours to begin with. It is not just the ring and the paper you lack, it's the covenant.
You are going to come through this . You hold on. God hasn't left you, but He is molding you.