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Oh this is good.  Thanks for the rebuttal of this being literal. 

Porter, thank you for taking the time to reply. These are bewildering times we
live in but we do have the privilege of knowing that Our Lord is doing a strange
work on the earth.
Isaiah 28:21.’…For the Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth
as in the valley of Gibeon that He May do His work , His strange work and bring
to pass His act , His strange act.

We know God is changing humanity from what we are into what He is. We know
why . I think what we don’t quite understand yet is the how.

I would like to address the scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and I think Ray uses the
Concordant version here.

Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away
together with them in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.

I believe this is talking about a literal meeting as taught by Ray . Maybe our mods
or anyone else who knows exactly where this is taught can help us find it. I know I studied it and I have seen it being discussed in many posts .  But did you notice.
It’s the living who are SURVIVING. Surviving what?

From the Rapture Paper. Here is what Ray had to say.

“ We are not being rescued out of indignation today. But those who are ALIVE
at the COMING indignation will be rescued out of it. None of God’s saints are
appointed to indignation ( wrath) and only those ALIVE at His actual coming
will be rescued( Greek, dragged away from danger) from it.
There are two vivifiications after Christ the first fruit. Those who are Christs in His presence and thereafter the consummation ( 1Cor. 15: 22-23}
All believers are in the first catagory. ( At the unveiling 2 Thes. 1:7-8)

Whether we are alive or dead when Christ returns , we will be snatched away
meeting the Lord in the air or being resurrected from the dead.

Drowsers will not be locked out of the kingdom .
The parable of the ten virgins is relevant to this study also.
May our Lord give us wisdom , eyes to see and ears to hear and endurance
to overcome the things coming on the world.
There is more I want to discuss but I have to rest those old hands for awhile.

Octoberose, I gave up trying to convince people the truth.
The blind can’t see. And when Jesus returns, will He find faith on the earth? No
very little. 
More to come, gotta eat something. God Bless you all.

Porter , I want you to know that I appreciate your fellowship as I do all
who love the truth. Jesus is the truth. Jesus is everything. 💕

Porter, what a labor of love that was. 

I have not known what to make of the sequence of events of Noah . It is a good point to bring up.

How do we resolve this?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Or Matthew 24:31
 And he will send out his angles with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .

You mentioned the fact that Jesus only taught in parables ( I keep trying to tell people that and they don’t believe me - Matt 13).   But he only taught the masses in parables and then he would tell the disciples what he is referring to and would teach them in greater depth.  Revelation is a vision to John, from an Angel, from Christ, from his Father.  So, discerning that vision is… complicated and one of those matters that I have to keep seeking . 

Pamela, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, as there's been a lot going on over here on the home front. I haven't had a lot of energy to do much in the way of studying. However, I did find a few more clues concerning your question regarding what Jesus said when He talked about shortening the days for the elect's sake.


Firstly, thank you for the reminder about Ray's teaching on birds/fowls symbolizing evil spirits. I also found this from Ray to support this idea.


This will be long, and for that, I apologize, as it may be hard to follow. If the mods need to remove it, that's fine. I will save a copy and just send it in a PM to Pamela. To be totally honest, I never intended this response to be this long. However, most, if not all, of what I've written here can be corroborated by what Ray has already written. So if you've already read Ray's papers, you're not missing much aside from more supporting Scripture.

https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
 

Satan entered Eden as "that Old Serpent [Satan]" and deceived Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Satan didn't sneak into the garden against God's will. He performed a needful task with our first parents. God knew what Satan was going to do to Adam and Eve. God did not try to prevent it. It is all part of God's master plan.

Just as God has provided food for mankind, He has also provided food for Satan. And just what kind of food does Satan dine on?  Satan dines on mankind.

  "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).
 



This is, of course a parable. That "serpent" in the garden was none other than




  "...that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world..." (Rev. 12:9).
 



And this is the same serpent that "deceived" Eve.




Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]..." (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS "dust.'




  "...for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).
 

 When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:


  "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5: .
 

Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).


Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.


Satan even had King David for dinner:


  "And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
 

But always remember, Satan never operates beyond his God-given parameters as we will see in the case of Job.

God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:


 "And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6).
 

It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not..." (Mal. 3:6).

David prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:

  "Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).
 
Are not these activities of Satan necessary? Does God use Satan for no good purpose? Then why can't men see that God also CREATED Satan for these very purposes?

Satan is constantly finding fault with God's Chosen ones:

  "And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and SATAN standing at his right hand to resist [accuse] him" (Zech. 3:1).
 
Remember, Satan can do NOTHING without God's approval. When God completed His creating, He said

  "And God saw EVERY THING that He had made [including Satan, the Adversary], and, behold, it was VERY GOOD..." (Gen. 1:31).
 
Satan was not only necessary, but he was, in fact, PERFECT for the job that God created him to fulfill.

Then we have this from 1Co 5:5 - " turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh [Greek: sarx], so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord."

It is the same Greek sarx used in Romans 8:7, where Ray explains that it refers to the “carnal mind”. It is also the same Greek sarx Jesus used in the passage in question.

Mar 13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh [Greek: sarx] should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The ravenous bird from the east that God Himself is calling (Isa_46:11) could very well be Satan, seeing how it's Satan's job to destroy the carnal mind. Not Satan only, but possibly Satan's children also—remembering God uses evil for good.


1Jn 3:7  Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.


1Jn 3:8  The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works.


1Jn 3:9  Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.


1Jn 3:10  This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother [1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.].


Here's another passage that details the manner in which Jesus reveals and then destroys the works of Satan. (I'm constantly amazed at how many other passages are connected to the following passage.)


2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. Only when the present detainer (Jesus?) may be coming to be out of the midst,


2Th 2:8 then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth (Joh_6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.) and will discard by the advent of His presence),


2Th 2:9 whose presence is in accord with the operation (works) of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles"

It seems Satan rather frequently operates through his children.


Luk 8:5  A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.


Mat 5:13  Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.


Ray stated that God provides food for Satan and gave some proof text. Here's what sounds like another proof text.


Mat 6:26  Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?


Remember when Ray talked about man's heaven vs. God's heaven? To paraphrase, Ray said something like: "man's heaven is a place of spiritual delusion. God's heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment".


Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles (Greek: strategies) of the devil.


Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness [Joh 3:19: …and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.] of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places.


We may not be wrestling against the flesh and blood of men; we are, however, wrestling against the things they teach, the things that appeal to the natural, carnal-minded man. Teachings that come from Satan and rule or have dominion over our lives in some way. 


While all the above supports the idea of the fowls of the air being “evil spirits”, it still doesn't explain why the days of great affliction would need to be shortened for the elect's sake. What's more, it doesn't explain why the flesh/sarx or carnal mind needs to be saved at all. I mean, I would understand if it replaced the word flesh for the word spirit, but that's not the case, and it confuses the heck out of me. Hence, it piqued my interest in it a while back when I first tried to study it.


I'm well aware of the churches teaching on it, as they use it to try to prove that most of mankind will be wiped out by some world war or worldwide catastrophe. All this, of course, is supposed to happen after “the antichrist” appears on earth and after the church has been raptured. I'm inclined to reject that belief automatically. Not just because Ray says everything the church teaches is a lie. But because my personal studies and the Spirit have shown me that everything the church teaches is a lie and contradicts the things I have learned from the Scriptures and from Ray these last 11 or 12 years. The foundation on which I base this is the fact that Jesus said He only taught in parables, and I believe Him.


Having said all that, I did find these from Ray.


https://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
 

Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"


  "For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
 

Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!

And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, " Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."

For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won't repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares

  "are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
 
And

  "they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend..." (Ver 41).
 
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.

Notice Romans 8:33, "... God's elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn't have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."

Didn't our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?

One more,

  "Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
 
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!

https://bible-truths.com/towers.htm

 

Matt. 24:21-22- "For then [when? At the END of this age, Verse 3] shall be GREAT TRIBULATION [pressure, anguish, affliction, persecution, tribulation, trouble] , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor EVER SHALL BE. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
 
Yes, there will be salvation for the human race, but it will happen only after a great slaughter of humanity to the point that no flesh would remain alive except for God shortening that period of carnage. Are we told elsewhere of such a great slaughter of humanity? Yes we are, back to Isaiah 30:

  "And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of water [yes God will bring peace to the earth, but He also tells us when this will be...] in the day of the GREAT SLAUGHTER, WHEN THE TOWERS FALL" (Verse 25).

 

Is it me, or is Ray applying a literal interpretation to what I thought was a parable in Mat. 24:21,22? I'm beginning to wonder where I got this idea that the great affliction Jesus mentioned was only in the future, in the Great White Throne Judgment/Second Death/Lake of Fire. It could be that I'm not rightly dividing the word of truth (2Ti 2:15) in this instance. Which means that the part about great affliction is a parable to them, seeing how the elect are appointed to tribulation and are not to be taken out of the world. But the part about most of mankind being wiped out is true. Can you, Pamela, or anyone else explain?


It seems more than ever that the world is afraid that the world is about to end. It's easy to get caught up in that fear, especially when the church is pushing hard to scare everyone. I hope that we can figure out what Jesus meant in the parable we are discussing. Otherwise, maybe we can at least try to comfort one another in these times.


Please forgive the excessive spacing between the paragraphs. It's the only way I know how to keep everything from bunching up and looking like a mess.  It's possible I missed a few spaces here and there between paragraphs, so it may end up looking bad either way due to the formatting.

I don’t have any answers except that I don’t know…and therefore must wait and trust in Elohim. I am like Octoberose, heart sick and confused how I should be viewing the events. I want retribution to the terrorists, but God says vengeance is His! What do I do about that?

I think this is the passage you're referring to?

Rom 12:19  Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath [Greek: desire]. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord.

Rom 12:20  But If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For in so doing you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.

Rom 12:21  Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.


Paul in the passage above is quoting and interpreting the 'Song of Moses' found in Deut. 32:35. God's idea of “judgment” is to feed His enemies when they are hungry. God's idea of “vengeance” is to give His enemies something to drink when they are thirsty. And God's idea of repaying His enemies is by conquering them with good, not evil.


I suppose this next passage is as good a second witness as any.


Luk 6:35  But love [Greek: agapao] your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil.


Luk 6:36  Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Amen. The Lord has given us clear instructions.  The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Friend Ralph,

And God intends that the flesh remain weak until we die. It is part of the lesson that we of ourselves cannot overcome sin. Oh we may improve a little and treat ourselves and others with a little more grace and consideration in our daily lives but,,,
It will take a miracle to fix the other 99 percent and that will not happen until God changes us with the gift of a new heart, mind and spirit at the resurrection.

=  Found on the web. A letter in rebuttal to a man who believes in hell and that the parable was literal.
Bob
=  =

We can eliminate the thought that God lies, because we both will agree that He doesn’t. The question is, what did He say? Neither God nor Jesus ever said "hell." They inspired their writers to say Gehenna, tartarus, and hades. It’s the King James translators (and the NIV people) who have translated these three different Greek words with the catch-all "hell." So as soon as you say, "there is a hell," you are already confusing the subject and demonstrating your weaknesses, which are imprecision, carelessness, and—I’m sorry—a touch of laziness. I don’t mind that you’re this way, except when you impinge upon the name and character of God, at which time you strain both my niceness and kindness.

Luke 16:19-31 (the Rich Man and Lazarus) is a parable. Jesus is in the midst of teaching five parables, beginning in 15:3 with the parable of the lost sheep. Following that are the parables of the lost coin, the prodigal son, the unjust administrator, and the Rich Man and Lazarus. The purpose of these parables is to teach the Pharisees a lesson about how they treat publicans and sinners. If you take the Rich Man parable literally (which apparently you do), you have to throw out everything the rest of the scriptures have to say about death. But not only that.

Is Lazarus literally sitting on the bosom on Abraham? Why not, if this is literal? In the parable, the Rich Man is damned because he was rich and wore fine things. Lazarus is sitting on Abraham’s chest simply because he got bad things in this life. Think about this, Ross. There is nothing here about the gospel, nothing about faith. If you’re going to make this parable the criteria for either being consciously tormented in flame or sitting on Abraham’s chest for eternity, then you’re going to have to base salvation on wealth, not faith. Well? What is the criteria for salvation in this context? Physical disadvantage only; there is nothing about faith here. So lets all wear grubby clothes and get dogs to lick our cold sores. We’ll be on our way!

I’m curious. Since this is a five-fold parable, beginning in chapter 15, why don’t you make the Prodigal Son in 15:11-32 literal? At the end of the parable, the father says, "This, my son, was dead." Why don’t you take that death literally? Using your system of interpreting parables literally, you can use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that, after people die, they go off to a far country, spend all their money on whores and alcohol, then end up in a pig sty eating indigestible corn. Ross, I don’t think you want to do this.

As for your verses from Matthew and Mark, Jesus is speaking of Gehenna, not hell. All you need to discover this for yourself is 1) a concordance, 2) a Bible dictionary, 3) the Bible itself, and 4) an ounce of common sense. The concordance will verify for you that Jesus said Gehenna, not hell. The Bible dictionary will tell you that Gehenna is a valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem, not some mythological torture chamber. The Bible will inform you (Isaiah 66:24) that Gehenna is the place of capital punishment in the thousand-year kingdom, where "all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem, says Yahweh. And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

Common sense will tell you that corpses neither writhe nor scream.

Let God be true, though every man a liar.

I want to say that I asked God to forgive me for my reaction to the people who did such unspeakable things in Israel.  God is just and God will take care of it and one day all those who killed and raped will fervently ask God’s forgiveness. And all in Israel will see the fulfillment of Law that they have only seen in shadows and they will forgive and they will be forgiven.  Sometimes it’s hard not to react as a human being because my cannel side feels one thing and a higher calling takes me another direction altogether.  I expected chastisement and  not your gentle response .

 I lose my temper and lash out more often than I should.  You aren't alone.  I have a long way to go.  This is a very difficult walk.

Oh, it’s common among , well, everyone who goes to typical churches to say that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable because they say it would be the only place in the Bible where a parable has someones name.   Why that matters to them is beyond me but it does and they believe in heaven and ‘hell’ based on that parable,

 Should say that we know IS. A PARABLE !

But one is Samaria and one is Jerusalem.  Surely that’s a parable.  And can you see what is happening now in the description of Jerusalem ?  I think I do.

Should have said carnal. But you probably knew that. :0)