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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: daywalker on February 10, 2009, 09:01:49 PM
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Jude 1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
A little help with what this verse is about here. I don't recall if Ray ever wrote or spoke about it. I think I remember hearing that it was from a story either in the Apocrypha or one of the Jewish teachings, but my memory is failing me. ???
Anyways, just trying to understand this verse; I tried reading the book, but it didn't help [perhaps I overlooked the answer?]
Thanks in advance.
- Daywalker.
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Hi Daywalker,
I know that Ray has said that there's a good case for showing that Michael in this verse is Christ. Other than that, I'm not aware of him teaching on this verse.
Steve
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I was a Seventh Day Adventist for 20 years..they believe and teach that Michael the archangel is Jesus. I don't know what anyone else teaches about it. I don't recall what Ray has said about it. Dennis or Kat could answer that question a lot better that I that's for sure! Here's another mystery for you..Melchizedek
His name means "King of Righteousness" Who is he? Don't know! I never have really given it much thought! Just happened to think about it in relation to your question! Gotta be somebody smarter than me! :D
Kathy ;)
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Hi Daywalker,
I know that Ray has said that there's a good case for showing that Michael in this verse is Christ. Other than that, I'm not aware of him teaching on this verse.
Steve
Hey Steve,
Yea, I've heard that for other passages, but in this verse it doesn't fit to me, because it says,
"... [Michael] durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Surely, Jesus has the Authority to rebuke Satan, Himself, but perhaps I just don't understand what is happening in this verse...
There are a few places in Scripture, where it appears that the Archangel Michael is actually Jesus...
Michael = "who is like God"
Daniel 12:1-4 (Young's Literal Translation):
And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book (lit. scroll) And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever (Hb: and beyond). And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'
Matthew 24:20-22, 27-31 (Concordant Literal New Testament:
Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath, for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring. And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted...
For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind. Wheresoever the corpse may be, there will the vultures be gathered. "Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. "And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities.
Matthew 25:31, 45-46 (CLNT):
Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,...
Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.' And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Revelation 20:13, 15 (CLNT)
And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life (AV: book of life), he was cast into the lake of fire.
================================
Revelations 12:7-12 (CLNT):
And a battle occurred in heaven. Michael and his messengers battle with the dragon, and the dragon battles, and its messengers. And they are not strong enough for him, neither was their place still found in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth. It was cast into the earth, and its messengers were cast with it. And I hear a loud voice in heaven saying, "Just now came the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brethren was cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night. And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death. Therefore, make merry, ye heavens, and those tabernacling in them! Woe to the land and the sea, for the Adversary descended to you having great fury, being aware that brief is the season that he has."
Revelations is a book of symbols (Rev. 1:1)...
Luke 10:17-20(CLNT):
Now the seventy-two return with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Thy name!" Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven. Lo! I have given you authority to be treading upon serpents and scorpions and over the entire power of the enemy, and nothing shall be injuring you under any circumstances. However, in this be not rejoicing, that the spirits are subject to you, yet be rejoicing that your names are engraven in the heavens."
This is from a personal study I started a while ago. I'm know that I'm merely scratching the surface here. But I still don't get that Michael in Jude 1:9 is Jesus Christ, seeing, as I said, that He has Authority to rebuke Satan. But again, I could just be missing the point...
Thanks for your input, Steve & Ninny.
- Daywalker.
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Daywalker, Steve,
These are all the Scriptures about Michael The Archangel i could find.
I do not see that Ray has yet developed this subject so do we want
to pursue it now. ???
george. :)
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
george.
Ray answers an email
Archangel
« on: January 25, 2007, 04:42:27 PM »
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Hi Ray,
I have posted my new revelations of the bible on my Myspace page and I got a response from a sister from the church I used to attend. I sent her the true meanings of scripture and no response. It seems to be a trend. I send explanations of vital Bible verses and then it is like they fall off the face of the planet. It happened to me with a guy who runs a very influential website (he even made a bet with me). It’s like he never got my email. Anyway, just wanted to share that, but I do have a question….
Who is the archangel Michael? I don’t know, but this guy seems to be very important. Is he a mere angel or something more? Was curious about your views on this, I’m sure you have come across this question in the past. Thanks
God be with you,
Roy
Dear Roy:
We need to be careful about using words like "mere" when referring to such as Michael the ARCHANGEL. The "ANGEL OF THE LORD" mentioned so often in Scripture is more than mere! Likewise Jesus is in every meaning of the word, a "Messenger--Angel" of His Father. If ARCH- signifies the very highest, (and we have no other being called an ARCHangel in Scripture except Michael [which means LIKE GOD]), then just maybe Jesus IS THAT ARCHANGEL.
God be with you, Roy,
Ray
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Hi Daywalker,
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
It seems to me that Satan is just asking for the "body of Moses" so as to reveal it's whereabouts to the Israelites. He knew that he could lead them into all kinds of inappropriate idolizing of the remains.
Michael/Jesus did not intend for things to go that way, but did not make "accusation" about the request, He just said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey George,
From Ray's answer to that email it seems that he isn't willing to treat the subject lightly, it seems some things should just be accepted for what they are. It's possible that Michael IS Jesus, we leave it at that. No real importance to prove or disprove it. It says what it says, if God wants us to understand it then at some point He will bring it out. some FUTURE point maybe? :D That's just the way God works everything, in HIS own good time! ;D
Kathy ;)
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Hey Steve,
Yea, I've heard that for other passages, but in this verse it doesn't fit to me, because it says,
"... [Michael] durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Surely, Jesus has the Authority to rebuke Satan, Himself, but perhaps I just don't understand what is happening in this verse...
Daywalker,
A 'railing accusation' is not the same as rebuking. The greek word for 'railing' is blasphēmia, which of course is translated time and again as 'blasphemy', 16 times actually. It is only translated 'railing' one other time which is in 1 Tim 6:4.
1 Tim 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings
Now remember the apostles' witness of our Lord:
1 Pet 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 John 3:5 And ye know that he [Christ] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Also remember, Christ referred to His Father in Heaven as not only Father, but also God and Lord:
Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve
Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment
The greek word for 'accusation' is krisis, which is translated 'judgment', 41 times. It is translated as 'accusation' only one other time, and yep wouldn't you know, in 2 Pet 2:11. This scripture also has the word 'railing' in it, though it is translated from blasphēmos.
2 Pet 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord
So 'blasphēmia' which is translated to 'railing' in Jude 1:9 is a feminine noun, according to Strong's concordance. And blasphēmos is translated to 'railing' in 2 Pet 2:11 is an adjective. But both mean to BLASPHEMY, which is something Michael [Gk. 'who is like God'] would not do, seeing our Lord does not speak evil from his mouth.
My personal opinion, and kind of goes along with what Ray hints to in his email, is that 'Michael' may not be a 'name' per se, but a title. Similar to Antipas from Rev 2:13 which means 'Like the Father'.
Excerpt from Lake of Fire series #11 (http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html):
WHO IS ANTIPAS?
"I know your works and where you DWELL, even where SATAN’S SEAT [throne] is: and you hold fast My name, and have not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr [Gk: ‘witness’], who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLS" (Rev. 2:13).
But how do we know that this is Jerusalem, and not the literal city of Pergamos to whom this message is addressed?
Because God gives us the same proof as when He tells us that,
"their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE also our Lord was crucified" (Re. 11:8 ).
And "where" was that? Jerusalem.
Where ever "Antipas" was martyred, is where Satan dwells and has his throne. But just who is Antipas? "Antipas" is not translated. It is the same word in the Greek Manuscripts. It is a compound word: "antee" and "pas." Antee carries the meaning of being ‘in place of another,’ and pas is from pater meaning ‘father.’ And so Antipas is speaking of one who is here in the place of his father. Who might that be?
"I came forth FROM the Father…" (John 16:28).
"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come FROM God, and went to God" (John 13:3).
"But now I go My way to Him that SENT ME..." (John 16;5).
"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is IN THE BOSOM of the Father, he has declared [unfolded or revealed] Him" (John 1:18).
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I PROCEEDED FORTH AND CAME FROM God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me" (John 8:42).
"God… has in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON…" (Heb. 1-1-2).
It is absolutely Scripturally clear that it is Jesus Christ who came "in the place of" His Father to reveal His Father to us. Jesus Christ is the Antipas.
The phrase "faithful martyr" is a proper translation, however the word translated "martyr" is from the Greek martus and is translated martyr only three times, but is translated "witness" twenty-nine times, for that is what its meaning is—a witness.
So Antipas, has come in the place of the Father. And Antipas is God’s faithful witness. And Who does the Scripture tell us is the "faithful witness" of God? Answer:
"And from JESUS CHRIST, Who IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…" (Rev. 1:5).
And Antipas, Jesus Christ, was martyred IN JERUSALEM. Satan’s throne and dwelling place is in JERUSALEM!
Sorry, it's pretty early in the morning...don't know if I put all this in the order I meant. Just PM me if I need to be in more detail. Thanks
Marques
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Hi guy's,
I just want to say that I think Kat made an excellent point. It appeared to me anyway that she was seeing the verse in a way that didn't present a problem with Michael and Jesus being one. The way I interpreted what she said was, Michael/The Lord...did not bring a railing accusation.... but only rebuked him. At least that's how I took what she said. Certainly it seems that there must be a difference between a "Railing accusation" and a "Rebuke" ??? If that is the correct way to interpret the verse...this verse would confirm Michael as being the Lord.
Harry
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Hi Harry,
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Yes that is what I meant. I took a simple approach. Believing that this Michael is Jesus Christ and He knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10), then there was no need for a "railing accusation" (Strong's - condemnation, damnation, judgment) Because He knew that Satan would not get his desire, as this was not in the plan of God. But Christ did "rebuke" (Strong's - admonish; by implication forbid) Satan for even making the request.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey Marques,
WOW! I didn't even think about looking up the Greek Words [idk y?], that clears up a lot! Thanks. Gosh, I forget sometimes how the meaning Scriptures can be altered or hidden by the way a word is translated...
Your explanation was superb! ;) Obviously, Jesus would never "blaspheme". Thanks a bunch! [And yes, I do recall "Antipas", that was an amazing revelation when I read it in Ray's LOF]
I will do more study tonight on this subject. Thanks to everyone who took the time to post. You guys rocK!
- Daywalker. :D
Daywalker,
A 'railing accusation' is not the same as rebuking. The greek word for 'railing' is blasphēmia, which of course is translated time and again as 'blasphemy', 16 times actually. It is only translated 'railing' one other time which is in 1 Tim 6:4.
1 Tim 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings
Now remember the apostles' witness of our Lord:
1 Pet 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 John 3:5 And ye know that he [Christ] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Also remember, Christ referred to His Father in Heaven as not only Father, but also God and Lord:
Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve
Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment
The greek word for 'accusation' is krisis, which is translated 'judgment', 41 times. It is translated as 'accusation' only one other time, and yep wouldn't you know, in 2 Pet 2:11. This scripture also has the word 'railing' in it, though it is translated from blasphēmos.
2 Pet 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord
So 'blasphēmia' which is translated to 'railing' in Jude 1:9 is a feminine noun, according to Strong's concordance. And blasphēmos is translated to 'railing' in 2 Pet 2:11 is an adjective. But both mean to BLASPHEMY, which is something Michael [Gk. 'who is like God'] would not do, seeing our Lord does not speak evil from his mouth.
My personal opinion, and kind of goes along with what Ray hints to in his email, is that 'Michael' may not be a 'name' per se, but a title. Similar to Antipas from Rev 2:13 which means 'Like the Father'.
Excerpt from Lake of Fire series #11 (http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html):
WHO IS ANTIPAS?
"I know your works and where you DWELL, even where SATAN’S SEAT [throne] is: and you hold fast My name, and have not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr [Gk: ‘witness’], who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLS" (Rev. 2:13).
But how do we know that this is Jerusalem, and not the literal city of Pergamos to whom this message is addressed?
Because God gives us the same proof as when He tells us that,
"their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE also our Lord was crucified" (Re. 11:8 ).
And "where" was that? Jerusalem.
Where ever "Antipas" was martyred, is where Satan dwells and has his throne. But just who is Antipas? "Antipas" is not translated. It is the same word in the Greek Manuscripts. It is a compound word: "antee" and "pas." Antee carries the meaning of being ‘in place of another,’ and pas is from pater meaning ‘father.’ And so Antipas is speaking of one who is here in the place of his father. Who might that be?
"I came forth FROM the Father…" (John 16:28).
"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come FROM God, and went to God" (John 13:3).
"But now I go My way to Him that SENT ME..." (John 16;5).
"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is IN THE BOSOM of the Father, he has declared [unfolded or revealed] Him" (John 1:18).
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I PROCEEDED FORTH AND CAME FROM God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me" (John 8:42).
"God… has in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON…" (Heb. 1-1-2).
It is absolutely Scripturally clear that it is Jesus Christ who came "in the place of" His Father to reveal His Father to us. Jesus Christ is the Antipas.
The phrase "faithful martyr" is a proper translation, however the word translated "martyr" is from the Greek martus and is translated martyr only three times, but is translated "witness" twenty-nine times, for that is what its meaning is—a witness.
So Antipas, has come in the place of the Father. And Antipas is God’s faithful witness. And Who does the Scripture tell us is the "faithful witness" of God? Answer:
"And from JESUS CHRIST, Who IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…" (Rev. 1:5).
And Antipas, Jesus Christ, was martyred IN JERUSALEM. Satan’s throne and dwelling place is in JERUSALEM!
Sorry, it's pretty early in the morning...don't know if I put all this in the order I meant. Just PM me if I need to be in more detail. Thanks
Marques
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I don't know about you others, but THIS is the way I think these forums are supposed to work. Without breaking forum rules in any way, we've helped one another apply principles that HAVE been taught to get a clearer understanding of God's Word.
Well Done!
Steve
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Marques, Kathy, Steve, Kat, Daywalker, Harry,
Buying the field (we have bought the field) now we keep searching for The
Hidden Treasures Put there by Our Lord And Saviour And King Jesus Christ.
Just finished reading the Book of Ruth, all 4 chapters. This thread led me back to those
Scriptures; it would do well for anyone who sees this thread to go and read again.
george ;D
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I don't know about you others, but THIS is the way I think these forums are supposed to work. Without breaking forum rules in any way, we've helped one another apply principles that HAVE been taught to get a clearer understanding of God's Word.
Well Done!
Steve
True that, Steve! ;D
That's what sets this forum above every other. That's how I know we're headed the right way.
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These are some of the different definitions from strongs re: Michael.
There may be others but it starts to wander so i only used these.
H4317
מיכאל
mîykâ'êl
me-kaw-ale'
From H4310 and (the prefixed derivation from) H3588 and H410; who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: - Michael.
H4310
מי
mîy
me
An interrogitive pronoun of persons, as H4100 is of things, who? (occasionally, by a peculiar idiom, of things); also (indefinitely) whoever; often used in oblique construction with prefix or suffix: - any (man), X he, X him, + O that! what, which, who (-m, -se, -soever), + would to God.
H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in “-el.”
H352
איל
'ayil
ah'-yil
From the same as H193; properly strength; hence anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree: - mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.
H193
אוּל
'ûl
ool
From an unused root meaning to twist, that is, (by implication) be strong; the body (as being rolled together) also powerful: - mighty, strength.
H3588
כּי
kîy
kee
A primitive particle (the full form of the prepositional prefix) indicating causal relations of all kinds, antecedent or consequent; (by implication) very widely used as a relative conjugation or adverb; often largely modified by other particles annexed: - and, + (forasmuch, inasmuch, where-) as, assured [-ly], + but, certainly, doubtless, + else, even, + except, for, how, (because, in, so, than) that, + nevertheless, now, rightly, seeing, since, surely, then, therefore, + (al-) though, + till, truly, + until, when, whether, while, who, yea, yet,
george. :)
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Certainly if Christ can do nothing apart from his Father neither can Michael apart from his Lord.
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Michael= who is like/(with)God?..maybe, through Christ/Annointed of/with the Holy Spirit power/force of God.
I've heard of St. Michael the Archangel... as a baby I was baptised by the Catholic church.
also Saint Michael & the Archangel.. I've seen it written many ways.
I guess the most Important Angel is.. the angel of the Lord.
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Michael= who is like/(with)God?..maybe, through Christ/Annointed of/with the Holy Spirit power/force of God.
I've heard of St. Michael the Archangel... as a baby I was baptised by the Catholic church.
also Saint Michael & the Archangel.. I've seen it written many ways.
I guess the most Important Angel is.. the angel of the Lord.
Yeah.. I am one of those who believes that Michael the archangel is actually [a symbol for] Jesus Christ. I provided several scriptures on the last page in case you hadn't already read em.. interesting topic no doubt..
Daywalker 8)
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???
Michael is an archangel, the angel of the Lord. Jesus is the Lord of glory. Wouldn't Michael be his angel?
Also I noticed the question Ninny had about "Who is Melchizedek".
Since he is without Father or Mother, and has no beginning of days
nor ending of life and is the Priest of Salem (the city of Peace) I always figured it must be God himself as I never heard of anyone else who would fit that description.
What other insight does anyone have on Melchizedek, I'd be interested to hear.
Lorine
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???
Michael is an archangel, the angel of the Lord. Jesus is the Lord of glory. Wouldn't Michael be his angel?
Also I noticed the question Ninny had about "Who is Melchizedek".
Since he is without Father or Mother, and has no beginning of days
nor ending of life and is the Priest of Salem (the city of Peace) I always figured it must be God himself as I never heard of anyone else who would fit that description.
What other insight does anyone have on Melchizedek, I'd be interested to hear.
Lorine
Hello Lorine.
I believe this may expound on what you are stating. My belief is that Jesus is above all angels.
From the CLV
Heb 1:1 By many portions and many modes, of old, God, speaking to the fathers in the prophets,
Heb 1:2 in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son, Whom He appoints enjoyer of the allotment of all, through Whom He also makes the eons;"
Heb 1:3 Who, being the Effulgence of His glory and Emblem of His assumption, besides carrying on all by His powerful declaration, making a cleansing of sins, is seated at the right hand of the Majesty in the heights;"
Heb 1:4 becoming so much better than the messengers as He enjoys the allotment of a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For to whom of the messengers said He at any time, "My Son art Thou! I, today, have begotten Thee"? And again, "I shall be to Him for a Father And He shall be to Me for a Son"?
Heb 1:6 Now, whenever He may again be leading the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He is saying: And worship Him, all the messengers of God!"
Heb 1:7 And, indeed, to the messengers He is saying, "Who is making His messengers blasts, And His ministers a flame of fire."
Heb 1:8 Yet to the Son: "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eon, And a scepter of rectitude is the scepter of Thy kingdom."
Heb 1:9 Thou lovest righteousness and hatest injustice; Therefore Thou art anointed by God, Thy God, with the oil of exultation beyond Thy partners."
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, originally, Lord, dost found the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands."
Heb 1:11 They shall perish, yet Thou art continuing, And all, as a cloak, shall be aged,
Heb 1:12 And, as if clothing, wilt Thou be rolling them up. As a cloak also shall they change. Yet Thou art the same, And Thy years shall not be defaulting."
Heb 1:13 Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, "Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet"?
Peace...Mark
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Hi Lorine,
The Smith's Bible dictionary has a bit of information on Jewish tradition of Melchizedek.
The "order of Melchizedek," in Psa_110:4, is explained to mean "manner" = likeness in official dignity = a king and priest. The relation between Melchizedek and Christ as type and antitype, is made in the Epistle to the Hebrews to consist in the following particulars: Each was a priest, (1) not of the Levitical tribe; (2) superior to Abraham; (3) whose beginning and end are unknown; (4) who is not only a priest, but also a king of righteousness and peace.
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Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
v. 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
v. 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
v. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
v. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
v. 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
v. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Melchizedek is foreshadowing Christ, and as a preview of Jesus’ priesthood he is used to show that there is another line of priests which is greater than the Levitical priesthood. So this shows the superiority of Jesus as the High Priest over the Levitical priests and uses Melchizedek to substantiate this point.
So in Hebrews Paul presented Melchizedek as like Christ in that he is without father, without mother, without genealogy, "having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God" (verse 3). Now I don't believe this is saying that Melchizedek literally did not have father or mother, but his background was mysterious and this was not known about him.
There is a few mentions of Melchizedek in Ray's tithing paper. Here are the excerpts where he is mentioned.
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html ------------------------------
Gen. 14:20, "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he [Abram] gave him [Melchizedek king of Salem, the priest of the most high God, Ver. 18] TITHES of all [all the goods of war, Ver. 16]."
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In this, the first mention of tithing in the Bible, Abram gives to Melchizedek (a priest of God who was also the king of the city of Salem) a tithe of the best of the booty taken in war. Notice that this was not wheat, corn, wine, oil, or cattle from Abram’s personal possessions, but rather booty taken from conquered nations.
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There is nothing stated here that would cause us to conclude that Abram (later changed to Abraham) ever tithed on a regular basis on his own person possessions. Although Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe of the booty of war, he told the king of Sodom that he would take none of it for himself.
In this same account recorded in the seventh chapter of Hebrews, we learn that the priests of Levi, from the family of Aaron (although far inferior to the priestly order of Melchizedek) also receive tithes from the people according to the law.
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Now in order to be a priest one not only had to be of the tribe of Levi, but he also had to be of the family of Aaron. In fact, if one could not trace his genealogy back to the family of Aaron, he could not be a priest of God. This is the whole point of Hebrews seven. Jesus Christ is a priest for the eons of the rank of Melchizedek because Melchizedek predated the law which stated that only sons of Aaron could be priests. Therefore Melchizedek’s genealogy is not given in the Scriptures, and Christ, who according to the flesh is of the line of Judah, can and will be God’s High Priest in the Kingdom of God.
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hope this is of some help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Lorine and Folks,
Some have supposed that Melchizedek may be Shem the ancestor of Abram who according to the genealogy in Genesis lived longer than Abraham. Curious speculation if anyone is interested.
Indiana Bob
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Hello Daywalker
I am relatively new to Ray's website and this is my first forum post.
A question comes to mind regarding the following verse:
Revelations 12
And a battle occurred in heaven. Michael and his messengers battle with the dragon, and the dragon battles, and its messengers. And they are not strong enough for him, neither was their place still found in heaven.
If Jesus is Michael would he not have been strong enough?
Warm regards to all,
Pamela
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Hi Pamela. It wasn't Michael who wasn't strong enough or didn't prevail...it was the dragon.
Rev 12:7-9 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers, and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven; and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. (YLT)
So Michael was "strong enough".
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If Jesus is Michael would he not have been strong enough?
Also one side note:
Ray does not teach that Jesus is Michael, though he does state that 'MAYBE' Michael is Jesus or symbolic of Jesus.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3232.msg24050.html#msg24050):
Dear Roy:
We need to be careful about using words like "mere" when referring to such as Michael the ARCHANGEL. The "ANGEL OF THE LORD" mentioned so often in Scripture is more than mere! Likewise Jesus is in every meaning of the word, a "Messenger--Angel" of His Father. If ARCH- signifies the very highest, (and we have no other being called an ARCHangel in Scripture except Michael [which means LIKE GOD]), then just maybe Jesus IS THAT ARCHANGEL.
God be with you, Roy,
Ray
The reason I point this out is because Hebrews 1 makes a distinct difference between Christ and His angels...I'll ask Ray directly this weekend if he's free, or see if Dennis can ask him. Either way, I'm sure he can provide more insight than the short paragraph above.
Thanks,
Marques
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If Jesus is Michael would he not have been strong enough?
Also one side note:
Ray does not teach that Jesus is Michael, though he does state that 'MAYBE' Michael is Jesus or symbolic of Jesus.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3232.msg24050.html#msg24050):
Dear Roy:
We need to be careful about using words like "mere" when referring to such as Michael the ARCHANGEL. The "ANGEL OF THE LORD" mentioned so often in Scripture is more than mere! Likewise Jesus is in every meaning of the word, a "Messenger--Angel" of His Father. If ARCH- signifies the very highest, (and we have no other being called an ARCHangel in Scripture except Michael [which means LIKE GOD]), then just maybe Jesus IS THAT ARCHANGEL.
God be with you, Roy,
Ray
The reason I point this out is because Hebrews 1 makes a distinct difference between Christ and His angels...I'll ask Ray directly this weekend if he's free, or see if Dennis can ask him. Either way, I'm sure he can provide more insight than the short paragraph above.
Thanks,
Marques
Hey Marques,
I would love to hear more from Ray on this topic... thanks in advance!
Daywalker
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I usually see Michael as a warrior, with battle gear..satan under his foot there is an angel that chains him in the bottomless pit. When he is released, and can't go back to heaven.. He'll show up.. in the flesh/ or through a person?
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As an ex-Worldwide Church of God member, I previously understood Melchizedek to be Jesus and Hebrews 7 was a record of him reclaiming his previous position...
v. 2 ...first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
...that only Jesus can be called King of righteousness because: Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;...
v. 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
...that this verse indicated immortality...that Melchizedek was 'made like unto the Son of God' because he had not yet been born of Mary...
v. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
...and that this verse by stating the lack of perfection of the Levitical priesthood, implied perfection of the priesthood of Melchizedek.
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I usually see Michael as a warrior, with battle gear..satan under his foot there is an angel that chains him in the bottomless pit. When he is released, and can't go back to heaven.. He'll show up.. in the flesh/ or through a person?
Rev 12:7-9 there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
Hello XxMYKLxX,
You seem to be interpreting the above verse as literal...though the book of Revelation is a book of symbols [Rev 1:1]. Heaven is a realm, not a place...Satan is a spiritual being, so he always is in the spiritual realm, though he influences the carnal mind here in the physical.
No where in scripture is it ever stated that Satan 'shows up in the flesh'. When Satan is released from the bottomless pit [Rev 20:3] he will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone for 'the eons of the eons' [Rev 20:10 CLV].
Have you read Ray's Lake of Fire series yet? Ray goes over a multitude of scriptures teaching about the Lake of Fire and the symbols used in Revelation.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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As an ex-Worldwide Church of God member, I previously understood Melchizedek to be Jesus and Hebrews 7 was a record of him reclaiming his previous position...
v. 2 ...first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
...that only Jesus can be called King of righteousness because: Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;...
v. 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
...that this verse indicated immortality...that Melchizedek was 'made like unto the Son of God' because he had not yet been born of Mary...
v. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
...and that this verse by stating the lack of perfection of the Levitical priesthood, implied perfection of the priesthood of Melchizedek.
Hello Pamela,
Melchizedek is not Jesus and Jesus is not Melchizedek...he was only a 'shadow/type' of what Christ truly is. There are no scriptures which claim Jesus 'reclaimed' any position.
1. There are many passages where someone is referred to as 'righteous'...but this is only in the relative, not in the absolute. Similar to Jesus stating 'seek the Kingdom and it's righteousness' [Matt 6:33] which is relative because the absolute is 'none seeketh after God' [Rom 3:11].
Basically, no one in and of themselves is righteous...only through the grace of God is one righteous or in right standing.
2. Hebrews 7:2 states one 'like' the Son of God...Jesus IS the Son of God, never referred to as 'like' or 'similar'. Melchizedek's priesthood was continually because he had no son ['no descent'], not because he was immortal. Remember, Christ only has immortality [1 Tim 6:16].
The fact that he was not born of Mary has absolutely nothing to do with being the Son of God...only regarding Jesus did the Father state 'this day have I begotten you' [Ps 2:7, Heb 1:5]. Jesus is the Son of God because He is the Son of the Father [2 John 1:3].
3. No, there was no perfection of Melchizedek's priesthood implied...the writer of Hebrews states a priesthood 'should rise' [there would be no need to 'arise' a new priesthood if Melchizedek's was perfect] and one 'after the order' [in similar fashion...'a priest continually'].
Remember, 'all these things happened unto them for examples' [1 Cor 10:11] as well as 'These are the words which I [Jesus] spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me' [Luke 24:44]. Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of all the shadows & types of the OT, including Melchizedek.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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???
Could this Melchizedek, the King of Righteousness possibly be similar
to the Man that went to see Abraham before the destruction of Sodom. Gen. 18:1 says "And the Lord appeared unto him". Verse 2
"And he lifted up his eyes and looked and, lo, three men stood by him." Verse 3 "And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy
sight, pass not away from thy servant." Verse 22 "And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord." Verse 23 "And Abraham drew
near, and said, wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Verse 25 Abraham said "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Verse 26 "And the Lord said" Verse 33 "And the Lord
went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham, and Abraham returned unto his place." Chapter 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom."
My thought is regarding this man that stayed and communed with Abraham after the other 2 left. Abraham called him Lord, and the Judge of all the earth. Was this man God in human form. Could this be the same as Melchizedek?
Lorine
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My thought is regarding this man that stayed and communed with Abraham after the other 2 left. Abraham called him Lord, and the Judge of all the earth. Was this man God in human form. Could this be the same as Melchizedek?
Lorine
Hello Lorine,
The angel in Gen 18 is a messenger from God, and represents Him...but He is not God in the flesh. Jesus was not made in the flesh until after John the Baptist was born [John 1:14].
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4925.msg38376.html#msg38376):
The "change in the law" had nothing to do with putting the tithing law under the Melchizedek priesthood! Where di you ever come up with that. Maybe it is YOU, Peter who needs to "research all sides of it Scripturally."
The "change in the law" had to do with Christ being now our High Priest, although He did NOT becomes a priest after the line of Levi/Aaron which was what THE LAW stipulated. Melchizedek was the HIGH PRIEST of the Canaanites (call the priest of the most high El--god, the Canaanite god Baal). This priest had the power and authority to TAX Abraham a tenth of all the spoils of war under his jurisdiction. Heb. 7:6 should read: "Yet he [Melchizedek] who is not of their genealogy has TITHED Abraham...." (See, Concordant Literal New Testament). Who do you mean Melchizedek "tithed" Abraham? He TAXED him. Jehovay God Almighty never requested ten percent of the pagan junk from war. Since when would God or HIS high priest desire the pagan gold and silver of Sodom. Give me a break. Was Abraham more righteous than GOD, in that he would not even touch the pagan belongings of Sodom? Did God say, "Oh, but I WANT IT, and I want 10% of the BEST of the spoi ls?" It's almost blasphemy.
And we know that Christ IS of the geneology of Abraham seeing that He is the seed spoken of in the promise [Gen 22:18, Gal 3:8]. Again Melchizedek is a shadow/type of Christ but not the reality.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Remember, 'all these things happened unto them for examples' [1 Cor 10:11] as well as 'These are the words which I [Jesus] spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me' [Luke 24:44]. Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of all the shadows & types of the OT, including Melchizedek.
Hope this helps,
Marques
What I thought was very fascinating was the fact that the prophets of old knew their lives (as it was revealed to them) were shadows, types, and examples for the Elect.
1Pe 1:10 The prophets searched very hard and with great care to find out about that salvation. They spoke about the grace that was going to come to you.
1Pe 1:11 They wanted to find out when that salvation would come. The Spirit of Christ in them was telling them about the sufferings of Christ that were going to come. He was also telling them about the glory that would follow.
1Pe 1:12 It was made known to the prophets that they were not serving themselves. Instead, they were serving you when they spoke about the things that you have now heard. Those who have preached the good news to you have told you those things. They have done it with the help of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into those things.
Isnt that something? This was (good) news to me just recently.
Peace, G.Driggs
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Hello Pamela,
Melchizedek is not Jesus and Jesus is not Melchizedek...he was only a 'shadow/type' of what Christ truly is. (...etc)
Hope this helps,
Marques
Hi Marques
Previous teaching that has not been corrected can really mess one up.
Grateful thanks, Pamela
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Hi Marques
Previous teaching that has not been corrected can really mess one up.
Grateful thanks, Pamela
Hi Pamela, very good and truthful point you make. I think all of us has brought with us some hay and stubble (previous teaching) from Babylon which needs to be burned. I probably still have more that needs to be burned that I may not be aware of. I think it is going to be a lifetime process, one day at a time.
Peace, G.Driggs