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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: josh on June 05, 2006, 04:16:33 PM
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"...those who are ready to rouse Leviathan..."
Job 3:7-9
"...Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?..."
Job 41:1-3
"...It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert..."
Psalm 74:13-15
"...There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there..."
Psalm 104:25-27
"...In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea..."
Isaiah 27:1-3
Leviathan... Symbol or literal beast? Both?
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Hey Josh,
Who/what else do we know as a 'serpent', as being 'formed', that goeth 'to and fro' (and up and down)?? :shock:
Good study on the TONGUE there, too. :lol:
Chrissie
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Monsters!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leviathan a Monster?
Please Help and explain?
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Mercie, Hi and welcome. The Leviathan as Chrissie said is symbolism for the Serpent, that crafty devil....No monsters :D
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Mercie, Hi and welcome. The Leviathan as Chrissie said is symbolism for the Serpent, that crafty devil....No monsters :D
Gina
Thank you so much for your friendly welcome and response.
Im new here and have read so many articles from both Mike and Rays Respective sites (and posts )but reading this thread became confusing.
If Chrissie would add some more , I would also be very thankful.
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Hey Josh,
Who/what else do we know as a 'serpent', as being 'formed', that goeth 'to and fro' (and up and down)?? :shock:
Good study on the TONGUE there, too. :lol:
Chrissie
That tongue :shock:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;[/u]
Power of death is two places (above and below :shock: )
Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue[/u] :shock: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
James 3:6 the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity[/u] :shock:
Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or HIS TONGUE with a cord which THOU LETTEST DOWN?[/u]
2Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity :shock: doth already work: only he who NOW LETTETH WIILL LET, "until he be taken out of the way".
Prov 17:14 The beginning of strife is as when "one" letteth out water[/u]
Psalm 31:21 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.[/u]
Psalm 55:9 Destroy, O Lord, and divide their tongues :shock: for I have seen violence and strife in the city.
Job 5:1 Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue: neither shalt thou be afraid of destruction when it cometh. :D (Pride goeth before destruction)
Leviathan
Job 41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things (highminded?): he is a king over all the children of pride.[/u]
1Titus 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.[/u]
2Cr 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of HIS DEVICES.[/u]
Lam 3:62 The LIPS of those that rose up against me, and their DEVICE against me all the day. :shock:
The tongue is a small member but it sure plays a big part in scripture :lol:
Daniel
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Thanks Daniel!
Those scriptures are what convinced me that the Blab it and Grab it theology was right. Ha. I was constantly monitoring every word I said so as not to say something that would "get" me later-like saying Oh that kills me like after a funny story. Nope saying kills me is a no no. Funny, I didn't think of it as magic incantation.
Now these scriptures read as parables and seeing me in them. How liberating. I am nothing. He is everything!
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The whole chapter, Job 41 speaks of leviathan:
(Job 41:1) Can you draw out the leviathan with a hook, or hold down his tongue with a cord?
(Job 41:2) Can you put a reed rope into his nose, or pierce his jaw with a thorn?
(Job 41:3) Will he multiply pleas for help to you; or will he speak soft words to you?
(Job 41:4) Will he cut a covenant with you; will you take him for a slave forever?
(Job 41:5) Will you play with him as with a bird; or will you tie him up for your maidens?
(Job 41:6) Shall your partners bargain over him; shall they divide him among the merchants?
(Job 41:7) Can you fill his skin with barbs, or his head with fishing spears?
(Job 41:8) Put your hand on him; remember the battle; you will not do it again!
(Job 41:9) Behold, his hope has been made false; will he not be cast down at the sight of him?
(Job 41:10) None is so fierce as to dare to stir him up. Who then is able to stand before Me?
(Job 41:11) Who has gone before Me that I should repay? All under the heavens, it is Mine!
(Job 41:12) I will not keep silent as to his limbs, or the matter of his powers, or the grace of his frame.
(Job 41:13) Who can take off the face of his covering; who can come with his double bridle?
(Job 41:14) Who can pry open the doors of his face? Terror is all around his teeth.
(Job 41:15) The rows of shields are his pride, shut up with a tight seal;
(Job 41:16) one is so near to another that no air can come between them;
(Job 41:17) they are joined to one another; they clasp each other, so that they cannot be separated.
(Job 41:18) His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are as the eyelids of the dawn.
(Job 41:19) Out of his mouth go burning torches; sparks of fire fly out.
(Job 41:20) Smoke goes out of his nostrils like a boiling pot fired by reeds.
(Job 41:21) His breath kindles coals and the flame goes out from his mouth.
(Job 41:22) Strength abides in his neck and terror dances before him.
(Job 41:23) The folds of flesh cleave together, cast firm on him; he cannot be moved.
(Job 41:24) His heart is cast hard as a stone, even cast hard as a piece of a lower millstone.
(Job 41:25) The mighty are afraid from his arising; from the crashings they miss the way.
(Job 41:26) The sword overtakes him, but will not hold firm, nor the spear, the dart, or the javelin.
(Job 41:27) He counts iron as straw, bronze as rotten wood.
(Job 41:28) A son of a bow cannot make him flee; slingstones are turned to stubble by him;
(Job 41:29) darts are counted as stubble; he laughs at the shaking of a javelin.
(Job 41:30) Points of potsherds are under him; he spreads sharp marks on the mire.
(Job 41:31) He makes the deep boil like a pot; he makes the sea like a pot of ointment;
(Job 41:32) he makes a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be grayheaded.
(Job 41:33) There is nothing like him on earth, one made without fear.
(Job 41:34) He beholds all high things; he is king over all the sons of pride.
Seems as though this leviathan is one tough beast. Of course these are spiritual words describing the beast within us all. Interesting words in this chapter: tongue, cord, thorn, false hope, double bridle, pride, tight seal, strength in neck, slingstones and without fear.
The carnal mind is one tough beast, but not one that God can't conquer. Makes for one hell of a battle. :wink:
God bless,
Gary
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The tongue is a small member but it sure plays a big part in scripture :lol:
That nasty little devil!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mercie, Hi and welcome. The Leviathan as Chrissie said is symbolism for the Serpent, that crafty devil....No monsters :D
Gina
Thank you so much for your friendly welcome and response.
Im new here and have read so many articles from both Mike and Rays Respective sites (and posts )but reading this thread became confusing.
If Chrissie would add some more , I would also be very thankful.
Hi mercie!!
I see that some others beat me to it.... I'll have to read what was added already and then maybe tomorrow I can add some more.... :wink:
But right about now my pillow is calling me. :lol:
Chrissie
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Yeah thats why He is SHUT UP or LOOSED :lol: Much like the Tongue, isn't it? l
Jesus healed a dumb man and He LOOSED to STRING of His TONGUE :lol:
The tongue is like "a bow" that can "be bent" (try it) "with a string" that "shoots off" fiery darts :shock:
Psalm 11:2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, "they make ready their arrow" upon the string, that they "may privily" shoot at "the upright in heart." :shock:
No man can tame the tongue, they give away their positions easily enough :lol: Thats why if a man bridelth not His tongue, "this mans" religion is vain.
Either the King of Humility is riding your back or the King of Pride, God try the reins of my heart PLEASE :lol:
Daniel
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que this:
Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the tail.
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Thank you all so much , you have been very helpful.
Could this be why New Tongues were given as all things made New being a New creation ?
Dividing the Old sharpened Ones ?
Psa 140:3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison [is] under their lips. Selah.
Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
Psa 55:9 Destroy, O Lord, [and] divide their tongues: for I have seen violence and strife in the city.
Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What [is] the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:29 [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I [am] against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
Jer 23:31 Behold, I [am] against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer 23:32 Behold, I [am] against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
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The reason for my original question was that the description in Job chapter 41 (in some parts) made this beast seem almost invincible...
It wasn't until I searched the scriptures on biblegateway.com, that i realized this "beast" was found in other portions of scripture...
While I definitely see the symbolism for "satan" or the devil.... I'm not sure I would have seen it representing the tongue... (it's neat to me that this symbol represents something both physical and spiritual.) After reading jobs friends yammer on for about 20 chapters (using their tongues to judge/condem Job, rather than encouraging him) I can see how this crafty beast was at work in the story of Job long before chapter 41.
Learning
Josh
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Mercie, I see it as you wrote it :lol: Psalm 55:9 DESTROY O Lord and DIVIDE THEIR TONGUES :shock: I have seen VIOLENCE and STRIFE in the city
Then I HEARD a sound from heaven as of a rushing wind and it filled the house where they were sitting :idea:
Acts 2:3-4 And there appeared unto them CLOVEN (Divided?) TONGUES like AS OF FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Perhaps KINDLY? :lol:
Daniel
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Pro 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
Just came across that.... thought WOW!!! :D
Figured I'd work it in here with the TONGUE. :lol: :lol:
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Hi Mercie and so nice to see a not so familar face(name) here at the forum.Welcome my friend.
The tongue is a nasty serpent and it can be taimmed. I should know for God has the leash on mine!!!!
bobby
Thanks Kindly Bobby very nice to meet you too.
AMEN that nasty little member.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another
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Pro 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
Just came across that.... thought WOW!!! :D
Figured I'd work it in here with the TONGUE. :lol: :lol:
Nothing like the FRUIT of your LIPS huh? :lol: The TONGUE of the wise IS the Tree of life a WHOLESOME TONGUE.
Keep THE LAW as THE APPLE of YOUR EYE. What law? If you "judge your brother" you judge THE LAW :shock: We are our brother's KEEPER. The simplicity of the faith and the love of Jesus Christ (the SINGLE EYE) of purity and devotion to Christ. The Kindness you have shown TOWARD HIS NAME.
There is a "law of kindness" on ones lips :wink:
Daniel
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Sgs 2:3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so [is] my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit [was] sweet to my taste.
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Sgs 2:3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so [is] my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit [was] sweet to my taste.
Excellent Mercie!!! :D Who hath made us accepted in the beloved
Daniel
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I like this thread!!!
bobby
Me too! :lol:
It went from "monster mouths" to "fruity lips", seems like a "pattern" :lol:
Daniel
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Does Not Our God Give the Increase?
Pro 18:20 A man's belly( mind) shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled
Isa 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name
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Does Not Our God Give the Increase?
Pro 18:20 A man's belly( mind) shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; [and] with the increase of his lips shall he be filled
Isa 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name
Amen Mercie!!!
Theres that tongue again, those who love either life or death will eat the fruit of their lips
Here...
Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Consider...
Prov 1:31 Therefore shall "they eat of the fruit" of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.[/u]
Or here...
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, :shock:
Its our way, as our tongue, by our words :shock:
Prov 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway "thereof" there is no death.
Great stuff! Reaping and sowing for sure :lol:
Daniel
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Nothing like the FRUIT of your LIPS huh? :lol:
No kidding huh!!
A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.[/list:u]
Talk about eating your own words, huh? (Out of your own mouth :shock: )
Better make sure thems some SWEET words!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Chrissie
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Mathew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.[/u]
No wonder the rich man was tormented by His own tongue, seems it was THAT FLAME that swallowed Him up :shock:
Its more profitable indeed that one of our members should perish :lol: The tongue IS a " little member" and "a fire" I suppose it is "this flame"
Isnt there a scripture with tongues consuming away in their mouths? :lol:
Eating ones words seems scriptural eh'? :shock:
Daniel
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Daniel and Chrissie, you two are a hoot! :lol: :lol:
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Daniel wrote:
Isnt there a scripture with tongues consuming away in their mouths? :lol:
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
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Daniel and Chrissie, you two are a hoot! :lol: :lol:
Com on' bro Gill, give "a hoot" alongside us here :lol:
A revelation of the tongue is something else. Just rejoicing in "the realization" that we were our our own worst enemies concerning our own growth
Don't do THAT :shock: right?
Who said, I AM A MAN OF UNCLEAN LIPS and I LIVE AMONG those with UNCLEAN LIPS. Then a seriphim flew with a coal and put it on HIS LIPS. In this he removed his iniquity and his sin. The TONGUE is a WORLD of INIQUITY. :shock:
Like the mystery of inquity being unveiled
Wow, clap my hands over my lips :lol:
Daniel
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(http://bestsmileys.com/kissing2/3.gif)
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Daniel wrote:
Isnt there a scripture with tongues consuming away in their mouths? :lol:
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Alex thanks! Thats it! :D
How bout that? :lol:
Its better for the flesh to perish, the tongue and our own eyes which see nothing to consume away. All in ones perspective I suppose
Edited in
Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. THIS IS the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and "their righteousness" IS OF ME, saith the LORD.
Wow :D
Daniel
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Hmmm. The tongue has the power of LIFE AND DEATH (Pro 18:21) and it can be “set on fire of hell� (Jam 3:6)
Noticing though that even the Lord’s tongue is a FIRE… a DEVOURING fire at that! :cry:
Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy:
his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:[/list:u]
Same word as used here:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Isa 33:13-16 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? :?:
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. \:D/ [/list:u]
We are to live by every WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of God.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of God.[/list:u]
His PURE WORDS are AS SILVER tried in the furnace of earth :shock: (Psa 12:6)
We will be tried AS SILVER and Gold…..
And we are judged out of own mouths! :cry:
Hmmmmmmmmmm… bet there’s tons in that!! OUR words, HIS words, OUR mouth, HIS mouth, OUR tongue, HIS tongue. AS it is only HE who can TAME our TONGUE (setting it on "fire of hell" :?: ). :cry:
Lots more to this ‘tongue’ thing then maybe even I first thought. :mrgreen:
Chrissie
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Daniel and Chrissie, you two are a hoot! :lol: :lol:
HI Gill!! (http://foolstown.com/sm/yaya.gif)
Chrissie
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GREAT smilie Chuck!!! (http://kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/he_and_she/girl_in_love.gif)
Chrissie
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Well there you go Chrissie, another thing to consider concerning fighting "fire with FIRE" :lol: Whose WORD would prevail? The tongues of men or GOD? Who is the mightier of the two? Should I even ask? :lol:
GREATER is HE that is within you then he that is in the world :wink:
Daniel
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Better make sure thems some SWEET words!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Chrissie
Amen
.
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Psa 64:3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, [and] bend [their bows to shoot] their arrows, [even] bitter words:
141:6 When their judges are overthrown in stony places, they shall hear my words; for they are sweet.
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! [yea, sweeter] than honey to my mouth!
Pro 16:24 Pleasant words [are as] an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
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Orion77,
Reading Job 41, the entire chapter, I see this as a reference to both the literal beast and symbolic beast (man), as well as Satan.
Job 41:1 "capturing him is futile" would apply to the animal.
The witness: Ps. 104:26-The ships are there, sailing to and fro; Leviathan , which you formed to play there.
Job 41:15 "his scales are his pride" would also apply to man's pride.
Job 41:34 "he is king over all the children of pride" would apply to satan.
Leviathan has been described as a crocodile and whale as well as a man in various scriptures.
Job 41:2 has a witness at Isa. 37:29-And because of your rage against me, because of your pride that has reached my ears, I am putting my hook in your nose and my bridle on your lips; and I will make you return by the way on which you came.
Job 41:34 has a witness at Isa. 30:28-His breath is like a racing torrent that rises up to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of destruction, and put a bridle in the peoples' mouths to lead them astray
Satan, the proud deceiver, leads all the children of pride. His as well as man's rage against God will be met with a hook through the nose and all vanity met with a bridle in the jaws from God. Do you see any of this? I think pride was one reason for Job's chastisement.
Grace be with you.
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Orion77,
Reading Job 41, the entire chapter, I see this as a reference to both the literal beast and symbolic beast (man), as well as Satan.
Job 41:1 "capturing him is futile" would apply to the animal.
The witness: Ps. 104:26-The ships are there, sailing to and fro; Leviathan , which you formed to play there.
Job 41:15 "his scales are his pride" would also apply to man's pride.
Job 41:34 "he is king over all the children of pride" would apply to satan.
Leviathan has been described as a crocodile and whale as well as a man in various scriptures.
Job 41:2 has a witness at Isa. 37:29-And because of your rage against me, because of your pride that has reached my ears, I am putting my hook in your nose and my bridle on your lips; and I will make you return by the way on which you came.
Job 41:34 has a witness at Isa. 30:28-His breath is like a racing torrent that rises up to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of destruction, and put a bridle in the peoples' mouths to lead them astray
Satan, the proud deceiver, leads all the children of pride. His as well as man's rage against God will be met with a hook through the nose and all vanity met with a bridle in the jaws from God. Do you see any of this? I think pride was one reason for Job's chastisement.
Grace be with you.
Not Only Job Jennifer , Paul also for HIS pride in the law.
Recall that He was Blinded , His eyes full of Scales.?
Job 41:15 "his scales are his pride" would also apply to man's pride.
The Proud shall be Humbled such are an Abomination.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren
Pro 16:5 Every one [that is] proud in heart [is] an abomination to the LORD: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Pro 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, [and] the plowing of the wicked, [is] sin.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Jer 50:31 Behold, I [am] against thee, [O thou] most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time [that] I will visit thee.
Jer 50:32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
We all NEED eye salve to wash away the pride.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
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Jennifer
God said consider his servant Job who was perfect and upright, how was job be considered prideful and upright at the same time? :lol:
Especially In light of what God said, saying Job was one of the three who by their "own righteousness" could save themselves.
Clue us in :lol:
Daniel
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Daniel,
Let's go mining though God's Word for witnesses that can clarify the matter:
Job 32:1,2,3-So these three men stopped trying to answer Job, because he remained convinced of his own righteousness. But then the anger of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite from the family of Ram, blazed up against Job for thinking he was right and God wrong. His anger also blazed up against his three friends, because they had found no answer to Job but condemned him anyway.
Job 34:5-Job says I am in the right, but God is denying me justice.
Job 34:35-Job is speaking without thinking; his words lack discernment.
Job 34:37-For now to his sin he adds rebellion; he (mockingly) claps his hands among us and keeps adding to his words against God.
Job 35:1,2-Elihu went on to say: Are you so convinced you are right, that you say, "I am more just than God"?
Job 36:15,16,17-God with his affliction, delivers the afflicted; and he gets their attention by pressing on them. Indeed Job, he is drawing you away from distress to an untroubled open place, with rich food on your table. But the judgement on the wicked fully applies to you, judgement and condemnaton take hold (of them).
Job 36:19-Will your great wealth help you? Or all your efforts, no matter how strong?
Job 36:21-Be careful, turn away from wrongdoing, for because of this, you have been tested by affliction.
Job 38:1,2-Then God answered Job out of the storm: "Who is this, darkening my plans with his ignorant words"?
Job 40:8-"Are you impugning my justice? Putting me in the wrong to prove yourself right"?
Job 42:1,2,3-Then (at last) Job gave God this answer: "I know that you can do everything, that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. "(You asked)'Who is this hiding counsel, without having knowledge'? Yes I spoke, without understanding of wonders far beyond me, which I didn't know".
Job 42:5,6-I had heard about you with my ears, but now my eye sees you; Therefore I detest (myself) and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:8-"So now, get yourselves seven young bulls, and seven rams, go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering. My servant Job will pray for you-because him I will accept-so that I won't punish you as your boorishness deserves, because you have not spoken rightly about me, as my servant Job has".
From the above I see Job accepting reproof for being too anxious to declare himself righteous and neglecting to vindicate God. Thankfully, the scales fell off his eyes, for at the end, his faithfulness under test was rewarded.
God made him a priest for his three companions who had contended with him, restored his wealth two-fold, and gave him new children-seven sons and three daughters.
Grace be with you.
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God says He was perfect and upright to Satan twice and here
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.[/u]
And if He feared God which he did and hated evil then this is defined here as to what that was
Prov 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Holding fast to ones integrity and good conscience is not evil, Paul spoke of others shipwrecking their faith in not doing so. Job is an example even for us.
What did God say of what Job spoke?
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.[/u]
Jobb 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right, like my servant Job.[/u]
Ezek 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.[/u]
Pride being connected to Job cannot be in that he hated evil. The biblical definition of hating evil is to hate pride and arrogance. Not only that but it IS the "fear of the lord" combined and both were said of Job. These things were contained in the "speeches of his freinds" as I see it.
We differ on this and thats fine. We just don't see eye to eye on this. I just wanted to see where you drew your perspective and it was very much like my own at one time, so I hear you. I changed my mind concerning it.
Blessings
Daniel
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Satan said:
Job 1:9-11 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said,
Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.[/list:u]
Repeated here… where God gives Satan power over Job (but not his life):
Job 2:4-6 And Satan answered the LORD, and said,
Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh :shock: , and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. [/list:u]
It was Job’s wife who encouraged him to CURSE GOD AND DIE (as Satan predicted JOB would do):
Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him,
Dost thou still RETAIN THY INTEGRITY? curse God, and die. [/list:u]
But Job REFUSED:
Job 2:10 But he said unto her,
Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. [/list:u]
Job DID NOT SIN with his lips?? :D
Job seems to me more of a ‘type’ of Christ than a self-righteous man who does not fear God or walk upright??
Here is this from Elihu:
Job 34:1-7 Furthermore Elihu answered and said, Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge. For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat. Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment. Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression. What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water?[/list:u]
But is that what Job said? Where is that? I found this:
If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I NOT lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;[/list:u]
(Job saw his affliction.)
Sort of sounds like where Jesus said this:
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them,
Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.[/list:u]
But ‘false witnesses’ said they HEARD him say this:
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.[/list:u]
Still looking at this..... very interesting. :wink:
Chrissie
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Anyone know off-hand where the article is that Ray wrote on this? I read it some time ago, but can't find it now. There is no search engine on his website and I don't know how to do a search WITHIN a website if the 'tool' is not there.
Chrissie
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Daniel Chrissie.
Good Posts .
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Great post Chrissie I agree, I like this too.
Job 10:15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I NOT lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou MINE AFFLICTION[/u]
Psalm 34:19 Many are THE AFFLICTIONS of THE RIGHTEOUS: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
Yet spoken of Job
For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.[/u]
Great verse in showing Job not lifting His head, right on.
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Theres way more in Job then first appears and I too see Jesus Christ in this pattern. Notice the days job lived and his generations are 140 plus the 4 equals 144.
144 is seen in revelation the measure of a wall (God is a wall) is after the cubits. Cubits are concerning ones "stature". It is a "measure of a MAN, that of an ANGEL. Christ was made a "little lower" only "in" that He suffered death. The "perfect man" we grow up into is "Him". Of Job it was said that He was a perfect and upright man. I see Him as a "type". A man of sorrows. Job is used in scripture to encourage others and to count happy as one who endured and saw the end of "the lord".
I don't see Job's holding fast to his righteousness as a bad thing, what are we to do let go of it? By this I do NOT mean SELF righteousness thats an affront to God. But Jobs heart would not reproach Him, I mean should it? Should we cast off a good conscience? Paul said in so doing others had shipwrecked their faith of which Job is an example of endurance. The resurrection has everything to do with a good conscience. If Jobs faith was shipwrecked and did not endure to the end then why on earth use him as an example? Makes no sense to me.
Daniel
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Daniel,
I'm sorry for our disconnect. I would still welcome your perspective on Job. 35:2, 40:8, and 42:3.
I still see Job's scales falling away once he understood Isa. 55:9-"As high as the sky is above the earth are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Actually, I'd welcome any insight on these scriptures from any of you, especially Chrissiela-let me know if you find the article that Ray wrote on this
Grace be with you.
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Daniel,
I'm sorry for our disconnect. I would still welcome your perspective on Job. 35:2, 40:8, and 42:3.
I still see Job's scales falling away once he understood Isa. 55:9-"As high as the sky is above the earth are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Actually, I'd welcome any insight on these scriptures from any of you, especially Chrissiela-let me know if you find the article that Ray wrote on this
Grace be with you.
Okay heres the verses you mention, I'm not going to battle this out or debate this, I would say to each one their own.
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
Can you point out where Job said this?
Jobs freind said,
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Of all His freind said, Job replies
Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but HOW should man be just with God?[/u]
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, "mine own mouth shall condemn me": if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.[/u]
Yet the Lord said of Job
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?[/u]
The direct definition of both the "fear of the Lord" in proverbs IS to HATE "pride and arrogancy"
God said he was perfect and upright did GOD LIE here? :lol: Job understood IF he should SAY he was perfect his own mouth would condemn him.
Job 9:21 Though I were perfect, yet would I "not" know my soul: I would despise my life.[/u]
Sounds like "hating your life" in this world and saving it
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.[/u]
Job 40:8 Wilt "THOU" :idea: ALSO :idea: disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Will THOU "ALSO" (As his FREINDS DID disannul His judgment)
Job said (who said way earlier on)
Job 9:32 For HE is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
And answers to God accordingly,
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
BUT GOD SAYS
Job 42:17 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, AS my servant Job hath[/u].
Why on earth use Job as a "good example" of those who endured if his way was shoddy? :lol: That still don't make sense to me. You'd think the apostles would say, "Dont be like Job, because he was a self righteous proud man" :lol: Yet God starts out calling him perfect and upright and ends with Job speaking what is right of God. :lol: To me the point seems is moot. When I look at Job I dont see Him as much as the goodness of God that came to Him. Even after he had to endure the longwinded speeches of his freinds.
Surely God looked and saw they had no comforter, because THEY were such MISERABLE COMFORTERS :lol:
Thats how I see it anyway
Daniel