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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on July 18, 2009, 09:09:06 PM
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Hi Folks,
There are probably very few people who are not familiar with Jesus using and speaking in parables, there are less folks who understand (as Ray is fond of saying) the entire bible is a parable.
Sir Isaac Newton exclaimed that nature, the entire world is a parable.
Do any of you when you are interacting with family, friends, coworkers or complete strangers ever stop and think, "wow :o this experience is a parable/type/shadow of a spiritual lesson God has provided for me to meditate on and learn from?"
Ever have moments like that?
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Folks,
There are probably very few people who are not familiar with Jesus using and speaking in parables, there are less folks who understand (as Ray is fond of saying) the entire bible is a parable.
Sir Isaac Newton exclaimed that nature, the entire world is a parable.
Do any of you when you are interacting with family, friends, coworkers or complete strangers ever stop and think, "wow :o this experience is a parable/type/shadow of a spiritual lesson God has provided for me to meditate on and learn from?"
Ever have moments like that?
Peace,
Joe
Raising children, point blank...from the moment they come out of the womb, it is 'me, me, me' (not to blame them, they know no better). Then, from that point forward, raising them to be responsible, loving individuals.
Similar to our carnal nature being changed into the image of God, by the Will of God.
Great question,
Marques
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Considering this past week I learned a lot.
My brother recently died and the funeral was Wednesday.
Well it was not without a little drama. Without going into a long story.....................
I'm learning how to deal with family members who seem less than loving in high emotional situations.
It is very difficult at times because you want to be just as angry as they are.
But I realize sometimes the truth I know, and it gives me peace.
If I can understand this experience as a parable/type/shadow then I would relate it to the saints in the kingdom and their role in judgement on the earth. I feel helpless at times when problems arise especially now among my family.
How this will be changed in judgement is always a wonder.
The process in which a heart is changed, know what I mean?
Antaiwan
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for sure raising kids is like a big type and shadow of how God is raising me.
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The thing about kids is so true. How often are we refered to in scripture as children or little children? You can get angry and exasperated at your children but would you beat and torture them or send them to 'hell'? No, of course not. Yet as carnal as we are and still love our children how much more the heavenly father loves us and yet the church teaches that the heavenly father will torture most of his children for ever in fire.
Or with your children or even a beloved pet you can see danger coming and you constrain them in order to protect them. The kids wail and the dog is bewildered by your rebuke but neither of them perceives that your doing it for their own good and protection. There are tremendous parallels and parables here.
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Hi Folks,
There are probably very few people who are not familiar with Jesus using and speaking in parables, there are less folks who understand (as Ray is fond of saying) the entire bible is a parable.
Sir Isaac Newton exclaimed that nature, the entire world is a parable.
Do any of you when you are interacting with family, friends, coworkers or complete strangers ever stop and think, "wow :o this experience is a parable/type/shadow of a spiritual lesson God has provided for me to meditate on and learn from?"
Ever have moments like that?
Peace,
Joe
Hey Joe
I have found that anytime, I talk to anyone who is not like minded in the things God has been showing me in his word, it is a parable to them and you can see that they do not understand, at first it bothered me to see so many quote scripture wrong, only to realize that most don't even know what they are doing, They Are Blind!
Kenny
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Everything to me is a parable. I see them in some of the most simple things.
This is more so since Ive came to BT. It can keep me busy trying to figure them out and mediate on them.
Its usually in the what seems to be the little things that most of them appear, but only if I examine them. Then there are times that they are ever so obvious. I can see or find a parable everyday if I am watchful.
Roy
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Wow! Joe. Thank you! Life as a parable, maybe that would explain some of the mysteries of life..I have mysteries in my life and I ask God why? why THIS? Why NOW? No answers just more mysteries...God is using these mysteries these parables, I guess to lead us to a place in Him that we do not know yet...sometimes it is a bit frightening...remembering, God is in control...thanks again! :-\
Kathy :-*
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Hi Joe, I can see this forum of family members fellowshiping as a type/shadow of good things to come. Learned a lot of lessons here, I cant imagine the lessons we will learn when we are finally in His image. ;)
Peace, G.Driggs
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Everything to me is a parable. I see them in some of the most simple things.
This is more so since Ive came to BT. It can keep me busy trying to figure them out and mediate on them.
Its usually in the what seems to be the little things that most of them appear, but only if I examine them. Then there are times that they are ever so obvious. I can see or find a parable everyday if I am watchful.
Roy
That's pretty much my answer as well. Doesn't really matter what is going on around me, the Spirit means it for teaching. There's something very liberating about having a glimpse at how all these things that God is working out will end up. Pretty much all I have to do is shut up.
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I second, that Dave!
In His Love
Marlene
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Do any of you when you are interacting with family, friends, coworkers or complete strangers ever stop and think, "wow :o this experience is a parable/type/shadow of a spiritual lesson God has provided for me to meditate on and learn from?"
Ever have moments like that?
not that i was interacting with anyone, it's just something i read on the web.
the other day i was just reading some business news about google.com, but one thing led to another, i ended up reading the story about sergey brin (co-founder of google), when i was reading his biography, i thought to myself, wow, he's the one God chose to fulfill Daniel 12:4 -- knowledge shall be increased, God has started to fulfill it in the 70s -- when sergey was born.
i am sure many of us came to bible truths through google, without google we might not be here on this forum, so our spiritual knowledge might not be increased. it's interesting that God chose sergey to fulfill His plan, he was born in russia to jewish parents (a physical jew -- first physical, then spiritual), his family was going through trials in russia back in the 70s because they were jews, long story short, hence they immigrated to america, hence google was born and has been used to spread the bible truths, hence we are here learing bible truths. what a parable/type/shadow :P
that's one of my "wow moments" ;D
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Yes Joe,
There have been moments when I have thought back on conversations and realized the parable that I had unknowingly spoken.
Some might say that I read into things too much but I think it's just that the Kingdom of God is increasingly at the forefront of my mind...
We have two cats that are quite different in nature and do not get along at all.
The eldest cat (black) is not very affectionate while the younger (black and white) is very smoochy and has white fur like wool on his underside.
At the time when my eyes began to open to the truths of the Bible through reading Ray's articles, the younger cat started to bring huge Rubber Tree leaves from the garden to the back door each day.
He would let out loud (somewhat muffled) meows to announce his offering that he would then drop at the door and wait with 'til I would let him in.
I thought of it as a wave sheaf offering!
Since then, the Rubber tree has been chopped down and he has moved on to bringing small lizards (still alive) to the door, most often without their tails! ;)
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Thanks for the responses!
I am glad to see you all understanding where I was coming from. Yes, maybe the most profound "parable" we experience in this life is raising children, undoubtedly it is a type/shadow of our Father's love for His children.
How about marriage itself? Can we see any types/shadows here? In any and all scenarios?
I agree with those of you who can see parables in nature, animals as well as the cycles of vegetation, the universal parable of "from seed to maturation" that we witness throughout our entire lives.
How about even inanimate objects or materials? For instance water.
Water is something most of us take for granted, until of course we have too little or too much of it. ;)
The earth's surface is 70-75% water, it is odorless, tasteless and clear in it's purest form and also a very simple compound 2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen, pretty boring stuff right?
We see a lot of references to water in scripture, dividing the waters in Genesis, of course the Flood, the former and latter rains, baptism, etc.
Are there parables within the unique properties of water itself?
..Three times more abundant than all other substances
..One of few inorganic liquids
..Only substance that occurs naturally as a solid, liquid and gas
..The most universal solvent
..Highest surface tension of all liquids except mercury
..Expands upon freezing (by 9%), a property shared with few other substances
..Expands with increasing temperature above 4 deg C
..Greatest heat capacity of all liquids (1 cal/g/deg C)
..Greatest latent heat of fusion and vaporization
..Greatest thermal conductivity except for mercury
..High transparency
..Like air, a highly mobile substance
..A dense liquid and therefore only slightly compressible
Here is more information on this most unique yet plentiful substance.
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/waterproperties.html
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistryproperties.html
Peace,
Joe
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Here is more information on this most unique yet plentiful substance.
Thanks Joe. With all of the talk of water,I'm a little thirsty ;).
John 4
10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
John 7
37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[c] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Revelation 7
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
For a host of living parables, please read Proverbs.Good stuff :).
Peace...Mark
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Considering this past week I learned a lot.
My brother recently died and the funeral was Wednesday.
Well it was not without a little drama. Without going into a long story.....................
I'm learning how to deal with family members who seem less than loving in high emotional situations.
It is very difficult at times because you want to be just as angry as they are.
But I realize sometimes the truth I know, and it gives me peace.
If I can understand this experience as a parable/type/shadow then I would relate it to the saints in the kingdom and their role in judgement on the earth. I feel helpless at times when problems arise especially now among my family.
How this will be changed in judgement is always a wonder.
The process in which a heart is changed, know what I mean?
Antaiwan
not going to contribute to thread but just give my condolences for the loss of your brother. I have a brother who I have not heard from in years. We did not get on but I love him dearly.
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I believe Romans 1:20 shows there are parables in nature. I think it is wonderful to meditate on these kinds of things.
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Here is more information on this most unique yet plentiful substance.
Thanks Joe. With all of the talk of water,I'm a little thirsty ;).
John 4
10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
John 7
37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[c] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Revelation 7
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
For a host of living parables, please read Proverbs.Good stuff :).
Peace...Mark
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the additional scriptures! Proverbs has always been a favorite of mine, even when I did not read the OT very much, there is comfort in that book of wisdom.
It is interesting to contemplate that the element that is perhaps the most valuable thing in the Universe for sustaining life also happens to be the most abundant thing on earth (at least on it's surface).
I can't wait for the Day when we all have a better idea of just how all encompassing His Spirit is and how it is going to eventually lead us to immortality and perfection!
Peace,
Joe
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Hi folks,
Another interesting thread,
- "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" (Ro 1:20)
- "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge." (Ps 19:1, 2)
- "When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?" (Ps 8:3, 4)
- "Listen to this, O Job; Stand still and consider the wondrous works of God" (Job 37:14)
- "The works of the LORD are great, Studied by all who have pleasure in them." (Ps 111:2)
- "It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky. Selah" (Ps 89:37)
- "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!" (Mt 24:32, 33)
I could go on and on for everything we see, hear and experience will teach us about our Lord and God's purpose,
- "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence" (Col 1:15-18)
If Christ has the preeminence in all things TO US then we are understanding the parables of life. How wonderful is the Lord of glory who gives us eyes to see and ears to hear what the spirit says to the ecclesia. Good thread Joe.
Grace and peace to you all
Nelson
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I believe Romans 1:20 shows there are parables in nature. I think it is wonderful to meditate on these kinds of things.
I did not completely realize this until today. Here above the Arctic Circle in the spring and summer months there is always constant day light. Literally 24 hour Days, no night or darkness. The thought of that just blew me away.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Isnt that something?
Peace, G. Driggs
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I got to thinking about water as a parable too...
If I am thirsty I can get water from three different sources:
1. I could buy water bottled by man (an industry full of deception and questionable ethics)
2. I could have a glass of tap water (water that has passed through the earth.. best if filtered)
3. I could catch water in the form of rain, directly from the heavens (requires prayer and patience!)
Psalms 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass:
as showers that water the earth.
Uh oh.. :o gotta go.. Scooby, stop drinking from the toilet bowl!!
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I was just thinking the other day about being out in the barrenness of life and not knowing God's love, thinking about how people could go through certain things without knowing that God was in control...this all reminds me of some words to an old song and it is kind of sad how people can go without knowing that God loves them....
"Each day I face the barren waste without the taste of water, Cool Water..." and then the part of deception..how in this life we are deceived by the false doctrines of the church..." "..Don't ya listen to him Dan, he's a devil, not a man, and he spreads the burning sand with water...." It's amazing how at Bible Truths you begin to unlearn what you thought you knew! How what you thought was scripture and truth is really deception.. >:(
I can't imagine life without the cool water of God's love....
(By the way, for those who do not know that song, Dan is the cowboy's horse! Cool Water--The Sons of the Pioneers)
Kathy ;) :-*
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i woke up this morning at around 7am. i had set my alarm for 7:30, wanting to control what time i woke up (carnal mind), but i was awoken by the early morning light coming through my windows. what had been a darkened bedroom, where objects were undistinguishable, was now a room full of light from the day star, and everything in the room was easily seen.
as i lay in bed looking at the sunlight, i realized that even this occasion was a parable for me. i was shown how though we try to be in control of things, our Creator is indeed the Controller of all matters that pertain to each of us. and i was shown how, although we might be comfortable for a time sleeping in the darkness (of our skewed perception of His Truths), he knew we needed to WAKE UP. so, our Father began to draw us to Him, and He began to open up the curtains shrouding our minds. THEN, His Day Star, Jesus Christ, began to shine through the windows (our spiritual eyes), giving us clarity to see all that had been undistinguishable before. lighting our path so that we could see our way through. just like the morning sunlight coming through my windows now made it possible for me to arise out of bed and start out on a new day, without running into the wall, or tripping over the cat or dog.
yes indeed, the parables are here, there, and everywhere; STILL. just like when HE walked this earth.
love in Christ,
claudia
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I don't know how to use the quote but that really is something. It's so amazing how God uses certain patterns over and over in scriptures, such as first the natural then the spiritual and the first shall be last. Then He uses types and parables illustrating it again and again, such as Ishmael then Isaac, Esau then Jacob, Adam then Christ and on and on. It really shows He is in control of everything. He is so awesome and amazing and wonderful!!!
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Tess, you are so right!! God is Awesome, Amazing, and Wonderful! I always try to get people to see just that! Of all the truths we could share with anyone this truth is it!! God is an extreme Father!!
Kathy :D
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Talking of shadows….the children of Israel (in the OT) lived in the shadow of the glorious reality of the life of Christ and His extraordinary act of extreme love for mankind in dying for us. Had they been able to glimpse what lay ahead they might have felt differently about all those endless lambs and goats that they had to lump to the tabernacle to be killed, they might have seen that every step they took through that torturous desert was one step closer to Christ.
In the same way, I feel I live in the shadow of the most amazing reality that one day in the future I will be like God. I see through a glass darkly, but the more I can, by faith, hold onto that marvellous fact, then my day to day trials will take on greater meaning, my path, with all its unfathomable twists and turns are actually leading me straight to my destiny, to Him.
Myms
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after reading through all the posts on this thread, i find this to be a True Fact. Jesus Christ, while on this earth, spoke only in parables when speaking to the multitudes. even His chosen apostles did not understand the meaning of the parables until He explained them to them. in our day and time our Elder Brother Jesus Christ is still using parables to teach us what we need to understand. although He no longer is physically walking this earth, He is still with us, within us. walking each step with us. but we are as blind as the apostles were when trying to understand the current day parables by way of our carnal minds. Jesus Christ knew we would still need Him to explain the deeper meanings of these parable stories, so He gave us His Holy Spirit. when i think about the fact that we carry within us the very Mind of Christ, and the magnitude of that Truth, it delights the soul causing my heart to sing His praises! amazing. totally amazing.
claudia
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Hi Claudia and Everyone,
I am grateful and amazed at all the incredible responses!
When Christ said "I change not" He was not kidding;
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
His Words, this world and our lives are indeed one giant parable and if we continually pray for understanding without self pity or resentment He will open up brand new avenues of understanding.
If we can view each and every experience and observation as having His signature on it then we can also see this as one more step toward our inheritance.
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Folks,
There are probably very few people who are not familiar with Jesus using and speaking in parables, there are less folks who understand (as Ray is fond of saying) the entire bible is a parable.
Sir Isaac Newton exclaimed that nature, the entire world is a parable.
Do any of you when you are interacting with family, friends, coworkers or complete strangers ever stop and think, "wow :o this experience is a parable/type/shadow of a spiritual lesson God has provided for me to meditate on and learn from?"
Ever have moments like that?
Peace,
Joe
Raising children, point blank...from the moment they come out of the womb, it is 'me, me, me' (not to blame them, they know no better). Then, from that point forward, raising them to be responsible, loving individuals.
Similar to our carnal nature being changed into the image of God, by the Will of God.
Great question,
Marques
I don't have any kids yet... but as an IT at a car dealership, I get similar responses from my fellow employees, "it is 'me, me, me' (not to blame them, they know no better)" :D ;). Haha, sorry, I just couldn't resist it...
Daywalker. 8)
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Examples of the shadows of spiritual truths revealed in nature....
http://lifecycle.onenessbecomesus.com/
Peace,
Joe
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Joe:
Who could ever doubt GOD perfecting us after watching that. We just have a longer gestation period!
Thank you for sharing. NB
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Joe thanks for this thread and everyone who responded,just awesome i love parables now and how if we search we can see God in them,such joy.
Terry
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Examples of the shadows of spiritual truths revealed in nature....
http://lifecycle.onenessbecomesus.com/
Peace,
Joe
Joe:
Who could ever doubt GOD perfecting us after watching that. We just have a longer gestation period!
Thank you for sharing. NB
;D
So true NB!
You are welcome.
Peace,
Joe
Joe thanks for this thread and everyone who responded,just awesome i love parables now and how if we search we can see God in them,such joy.
Terry
Hi Terry,
Yes, I love parables too, especially when the meanings (often there are multiple layers & sometimes they are plural) become clear.
Peace,
Joe
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This was such a neat thread-just thought you might want to know. ;D Sometimes, I truly get these ahah moments. God is just awesome!
Beth :D
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Joe,
As always...I have been truely Blessed by You, and all those that posted here!
WOW
Brenda
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Has anyone else seen a parable inside the parable that theyve seen?
Ive had many but cant think of any right now
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yesterday afternoon i was laying face down on my chiropractor's table. my chiropractor is not the traditional crack your bones chiro. she is a nsa chiro, which stands for network spinal analysis. this means that she works on the "gateways" which are the beginnings of pathways that allow the mind to work with the body. anyway, my chiro always plays music while working on me. music that is very soothing to the soul, allowing ones' mind to let go of the carnal aspect of thinking and meditate on the spiritual. as i lay there, i thought about what our sister marlene had written in a recent post about God being able to move mountains in our lives. that thought led to remembering in the Scriptures how Jesus Christ, many times in His ministry on earth, would ascend into the mountains to pray and renew His spirit after being pursued by the multitudes. remembering how He carried within His body sickness and pain and how He had His lot of mental anguish, i began to picture Him, climbing the physical mountains with each step paining His aching body. i saw His feet digging deep into the mountain side, and could hear His gasps for breath as He labored to reach the Place of Comfort that awaited Him. away from the chaos of the multitudes. away even from His beloved apostles and disciples and His family. then i saw Him rest in His Father, communing with His Creator and becoming stronger in spirit. leaving off the physical in order to obtain the Spiritual. and this was to me a parable. showing me a picture of how it is the mountains in our lives that cause us to be drawn closer to Him. the mountains that loom over us are actually the impetus to draw us closer to God our Father. though we scale the mountains in painful steps, agony on our faces and in our bodies, our Father will renew us and infuse us with His power and might in our inner man. a reminder that in our trials and sufferings in this life, His peace awaits us if we will but separate ourselves from the world and come unto Him. as my session with my chiro came to an end, i understood that even the Son of God had to separate Himself from the physical in order to obtain the Spiritual. even our Elder Brother Jesus Christ had to endure the pain of the mountains on His physical body, in order to experience a renewing of His spirit and a building of His faith in His Father's love and will.
claudia
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Truly inspiring Claudia.
Ches
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Claudia, That is such a awesome post. What, a parable. This thought is giving me such comfort. Makes you think of the Song I need thee every hour. Our Lord over came those mountains. Nothing to big for God and it all has a purpose. If, we don't see it now we ill.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Claudia,
Thank you for the parable,that was most certainly a seed of inspiration. :)
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Hi Joe,
This is a tremendous thread that goes on and on. I have enjoyed every post, and I thank God that He gave you the wisdom to start it. Also, I have wanted to contribute to it but until today felt that I had nothing to offer. However, this 'offering' is more of a question as I have never been good at parables, and rely on Ray's teaching most of the time, as well as posts on this forum.
Practically every day I remind myself of the verse "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev 18:4. because the social side of 'church' is a tug at the heartstrings.
I know that Ray has said every verse in the bible has a witness, and so during some study I read in the gospel of John:
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
My question is , is this a witness verse, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Geoff
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I know you all know this, but we are in a war, everyday of our lives all day.
Hi Aktikt,
You know we may lose many battles in this spiritual warfare but through the One who never lost, who never came up short we all will ultimately win this war.
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
This is a tremendous thread that goes on and on. I have enjoyed every post, and I thank God that He gave you the wisdom to start it. Also, I have wanted to contribute to it but until today felt that I had nothing to offer. However, this 'offering' is more of a question as I have never been good at parables, and rely on Ray's teaching most of the time, as well as posts on this forum.
Practically every day I remind myself of the verse "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev 18:4. because the social side of 'church' is a tug at the heartstrings.
I know that Ray has said every verse in the bible has a witness, and so during some study I read in the gospel of John:
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
My question is , is this a witness verse, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Geoff
Hi Geoff,
I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
If one looks at what you quoted from the Gospel of John not only is it a witness to Rev 18:4 but actually gives it added depth. It is a beautiful and wondrous thing when we see for ourselves (through His Spirit) how intertwined all scripture really is and how it all eventually crystallizes into One thing;
Christ is the Savior of all!
Read Psalm 95 which is a witness to John 10 (and by extension Rev 18:4). ;)
Even so there is a time and season for each person to come to this realization, it is only by spiritual discernment which is a gift from God that opens up the giant parable that is His Word. We can see what the ultimate conclusion of our Lord's work results in but for the vast majority they can only see the first portion of God's plan and purpose, the complete work is yet hidden to them. This is why we should have compassion and mercy toward those who vehemently oppose the knowledge given us, anger with the spiritually blinded makes as much sense as anger toward a physically blind person who cannot differentiate red from blue.
Peace,
Joe
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Hi All,
I just noticed this as I was researching something else (happens often). This fits right into what Geoff presented earlier in the thread. Perhaps some of you are already familiar with this but it is new to me;
Luke 6
13And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
I must admit total ignorance here as I have always assumed/believed/thought that the apostles were chosen first and the disciples were those who sort of were hangers on maybe like groupies or hero worshipers who were rather fickle and would follow whatever was the "flavor of the day" or newest thing happening.
From what I am perceiving from Luke is that they all started as disciples (temporarily intrigued and excited) and were chosen to be apostles at a later time. Of course we know that any and all truly chosen were created to be of the elect from the beginning but what I am seeing here is that the process of called then chosen is the pattern Jesus established during His earthly ministry.
Like I said before this is the first time I noticed it, this could very well be old news to many of you.
Peace,
Joe
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the vast majority they can only see the first portion of God's plan and purpose, the complete work is yet hidden to them. This is why we should have compassion and mercy toward those who vehemently oppose the knowledge given us, anger with the spiritually blinded makes as much sense as anger toward a physically blind person who cannot differentiate red from blue.
joe,
as geoff brought forth the spiritual witness for rev. 18:4 in john 10:3, my eyes were opened to the spiritual witness of these 2 scriptures also for the first time. reading the witnesses in the scriptures as they connect to each other and intertwine with each other, i sit here amazed at how intricately our Father set for His Words.
and the statement you made that i have noted above in green, was just so simple yet so profound. i have never, ever thought of this in this way. thank you my dear brothers in Christ for your hearts for His Word and His Truths, and thank You Heavenly Father for opening my eyes yet again. i pray that You will continue to feed us from Your bounty. in Jesus Christ's Name. amen.
claudia
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Hi Joe,
When He was up on the mountain with His disciples (students), how many were up there with Him?
At daybreak He called them all to Him and out of these He chose the 12 apostles.
I hope that I'm not off base here or out of line in answering you post.
Peace, Bluzman
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Hey Joe,
I was watching the video of the Chrysalis morphing into the Butterfly and it was truly amazing. It brought to my remembrance what I had heard some time ago. To save money, many times the WCG local congregation would use silk flowers as the arrangement. On the "holy days" they were always real. As long as you were across the room you could not tell whether they were "real" or "fake". However, the closer you were to the flowers the more apparent it became. Those that were made by man became less and less perfect the closer you looked until you knew they were made by the hand of man. Those made by God became more and more perfect until you knew they were made by Him. The closer you look at something God has made the more orderly it becomes-the more beautiful those things are. This shows me that what man does is only a shadow of what he will be able to do when he is granted real life in the family of God.
Jim
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God is a consuming fire. The burning bush that didn't get destroyed.
Roy
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Very Very Good Posts! My kids are chapters 17, 16, 11, 3 and 1 of my life of parables. Ok. Even that sentence is a parable. Amazing!
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What a wonderful thread really open up my mind to the creation of God. Not to be anger because those around us are walking in darkness, seeing the parables in every day life and knowing God is choosing us by this witness of having his truth. Praise God
doesn't this just make you wanta grow and grow and grow!!!even though its through suffering? now we can understand and look at our trials and hardness of our life differently. peggy the sheep are feeding and it is good
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"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly"
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Has anyone else seen a parable inside the parable that theyve seen?
I must have missed this one earlier....... Yes there certainly are parables within parables, as well as riddles that must be scrutinized and studied, sometimes though (and I like these the best) we find new meanings in familiar verses that His Spirit has opened up to us.
Here is one that I find compelling, and it also provides more evidence that salvation is not a "one shot deal" where one is lost forever if not among those called and chosen in this age.
Remember these familiar verses?
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake1223, those days shall be shortened.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake,1223, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
Rather than "for the elect's sake" it appears it really should be saying "through the elect" as in "through the elect those days were shortened."
We know the elect will hold key positions in bringing salvation (through Christ) to the rest of humanity.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Looking at the Greek word dia could these verses have been clearer in the translation, actually doesn't the present translation tend to obscure the real (hidden) truth? Although there is merit in the translation the way it written knowing the original and primary definition of the Greek word adds depth to it.
Peace,
Joe
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Hey, yes, Joe! That makes a LOT of sense!
"through the elect" I have puzzled over that verse a lot! :D
Kathy ;)
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Joe,
That filled me with WONDER and AWE!
I just can't imagine being apart of this process...
:o
Brenda
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Hi Joe,
As I was thinking about this in the beginning of this chapter in Matt. the disciples had ask Jesus "what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"
Mat 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"
So now am thinking that down in verse 22 isn't Christ still talking about the end of this present age that the days will be shortened?
Mat 24:22 "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
What do you think, just wondering about that?
mercy, peace andlove
Kat
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I asked Ray to comment on this subject. He replied:
Denny:
There is more to understanding a Scripture than to just looking up the Greek or Hebrew words or checking various translations. Just because a certain word can mean this of that doesn't mean that it should be translated this way or that way. Here are some proofs that "through" the Elect is decided not the proper translation of Matt. 24:22--
[1] Before we ask whether it is the Lord Who shortens those days or whether the Chosen Elect shortens those days, we need to ask just how would the Elect have the ability to "shorten days" in the first place? This seems clearly out of the realm of possibility for mere mortals to accomplish.
[2] I know of no translation that translates "for" the elect's sake as "through the elect." "For" does seem to be the proper translation, or at least a word meaning "for," such as "on account of" (Emphatic Diaglott); or "yet, because of" (Concordant Literal New Testament); "for the sake of" (New Revised Standard Version), etc. The meaning is clear that it is "for or because of" of the Elect that these days will be shortened, not "by means of" the Elect.
[3] If it is the actual coming of Christ that shortens this destructive period of time, and the Elect are the instrumentality through which this shortening takes places, then they would of necessity, have to know when Jesus would have to come, but we are clearly told that "...of the day and hour knows no man" (Matt. 24:36).
[4] When all else fails check the parallel prophecies in the synoptic gospels to see if the wording makes it any clearer. Obviously most all translators have done this, and therefore did not make a mistake when they translated Matt. 24:22 as "FOR" the elect's sake. Notice the parallel in Mark's account of this very same prophecy:
Mar 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days [Who shortened those days? The Elect? NO, 'the LORD'] , no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days [Who? 'He (the LORD) has shortened']." There is the absolute irrefutable answer as to Who shortens these days--the Elect or the LORD.
God be with you,
Ray
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Rather than "for the elect's sake" it appears it really should be saying "through the elect" as in "through the elect those days were shortened."
We know the elect will hold key positions in bringing salvation (through Christ) to the rest of humanity.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Looking at the Greek word dia could these verses have been clearer in the translation, actually doesn't the present translation tend to obscure the real (hidden) truth? Although there is merit in the translation the way it written knowing the original and primary definition of the Greek word adds depth to it.
Peace,
Joe
I appreciate the critique as it will challenge me to continue to study the patterns within the scriptures as well as the depths of verses rather than one singular understanding or meaning.
The point I was trying to make is not that there was no truth in the way these 2 verses were translated but rather when we look at the original Greek there is more treasure to be mined and they are not necessarily in conflict!
Aren't the elect going to be the workers of the great harvest? Isn't Christ going to work through the elect bringing humanity to Him and His Father?
From Lake of Fire Part 6;
If you have never experienced COMING OUT of Babylon the Great, then maybe you are being called to respond to God’s plea: "Come OUT of her MY PEOPLE." It is a great and wonderful thing to be called by God at this time to be prepared as the very SONS OF THE LIVING GOD to bring salvation to the rest of the world and the entirety of the universe!
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Jacob,
I wondering if this means that the length of the daytime period will be shortened. It seems to me that this is saying that God will not let the world continue on it's present course towards complete debauchery. No, He will step in and Christ will return, thus He will shorten the number of days that the present course this world is on. It's for the Elect sake because they are living in this world and cry out for Him to do something.
Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened...
"Days should be shortened" reminds me of another phrase that He uses in Revelation "I come quickly."
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Just a few thoughts on this subject.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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That is interesting, though, isn't it? I have often thought of what the meaning of those words might be..literal days, being literally shortened or the time for Christ's returned being shortened because of the elect and the pain they are in..and the circumstances...you have to think of how that might be, people have suffered a great deal through the years and endured hardship, pain, and death for professing Jesus...wow! What will change because of the "elect"?
Kathy ???
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Let me ask it this way: Has there ever been a day go by or a circumstance we find ourselves in that He doesn't/hasn't/will not have performed His will for our sake? Has He not framed Evil and shown mercy? He's 'lengthened' and 'shortened' all the days/events/circumstances/periods of our lives to bring us to where we've been, are, and are going. His will be done.
Does it need to be said that He's done it all without literally and physically shortening the literal and physical 24-hour-day? At least not routinely, we can all agree. :D
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Dave...are you saying God changes our perspective?? Or the way we see our circumstances?? hmmm
Kathy ;)
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Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
From LOF Part 12;
God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!
And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:
God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it:
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
Peace,
Joe
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Kathy, I'm saying that God does what He wants. He works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. His purpose is to conform us all to the image of His Son. If and when there ever comes a period of time (days) when mercy must be shown to the world for the sake of the elect, then it will NOT be the least bit out of character or the practice of God to show it. That's all He's ever done in regards to us.
If we don't see all those times, it's because He has blinded us to the full brightness of His glory. This too is mercy. Our perspective or sight doesn't change anything--except us.
I don't pray for the end of this world, though I do love His appearing. Go figure.