Print Page - Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 03:27:20 AM

Title: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 03:27:20 AM

In all the studies I have done about Gehenna, Hades and Sheol, I am still left with a question mark.
We know the Greek words Hades and Gehenna, but do we know if Jesus used these terms?

Was the Greek words Gehenna and Hades implemented in the Aramaic language Jesus spoke,
or did he use the old Hebrew words when he preached his Sermon on the Mount and told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 03:47:03 AM

I'm afraid all anyone can do is speculate the answer to that. But I would venture to say, No, He most certainly did not use any Greek when speaking to the Jews. ;D

But what if He did? Does that change anything we know to be truth? How could it?

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 04:09:21 AM

Though, it just occurred to me that there may have been among those that heard the Sermon on the Mount other people than Jews; there may have been Greeks and Italians. Or maybe there wasn't, seeing Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel:

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kenneth Clark on May 28, 2012, 05:03:59 AM

wasnt gehenna a greek word and hades a jewish word...if so or the other way around Jesus would have spoken either or

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 06:26:44 AM

Kenneth Clark - No Hades is a greek word. But in the Greek translation of OT Septuginta, the Hebrew word Sheol is translated Hades

Gina I'm not sure if there were so many listeners when Jesus gave Sermon on the Mount. Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Looks like he was only preachint to his disciples

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Samson on May 28, 2012, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 03:27:20 AM

In all the studies I have done about Gehenna, Hades and Sheol, I am still left with a question mark.
We know the Greek words Hades and Gehenna, but do we know if Jesus used these terms?

Was the Greek words Gehenna and Hades implemented in the Aramaic language Jesus spoke,
or did he use the old Hebrew words when he preached his Sermon on the Mount and told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

Jesus & The Apostles Used The Greek Septuagint Translation of The Hebrew Scriptures(Old Testament). Although Jesus and the Others spoke Hebrew/Aramaic, they knew Greek, it was the official Language of the Roman Empire. The Word Hades is Greek and is the exact equivalent of Sheol literally meaning " the unseen, imperceptible, Sheol is Hebrew.

Acts. 2:27 uses the word Hades and is a quotation of Psalm. 16:10 proving that Sheol & Hades are equivalent. Sheol is incorrectly translated Pit or Grave in the Old Testament, but should be translated Sheol every time. Grave is similar to Sheol & Hades, but is not exactly the same. Grave is referring to the burial place of an individual Person. The Greek Word for Grave is Taphos. I don't recall the Hebrew word for Grave. Interestingly, the Greek Word used in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is Hades, not Gehenna.

About Gehenna, this word has nothing to do with Sheol(Hebrew) or Hades(Greek). The Greek word Gehenna literally means "Valley of Hinnom," or "Valley of the Son of Hinnom," Ge' = Valley and Henna = Hinnom.

Jer 7:28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
Jer 7:29 Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the VALLEY OF THE SON OF HINNOM, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

In Jesus Day, this former location used for Idolatrous Worship where they offered their Children as Sacrifice to the god Molech, became Jerusalem's Garbage Dump, hence Ge' Henna or Ge' Hinnom.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Gehenna)

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell(Gehenna) fire (Pur).

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell(Gehenna).

geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

Below are references from Ray in Blue Color.

Hades IS sheol. Hades is the Greek translation in the New Testament when an Old Testament Hebrew verse is quoted containing the word "sheol." Here is an example:

Acts 2:27--"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither wilt thou suffer Your Holy One to see corruption"

This is a quotation of Psalm 16:10:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer Your Holy One to see corruption."

So the Holy Spirit inspired the New Testament writers to translate the Hebrew word sheol into the Greek word hades. Therefore, sheol IS hades and hades IS sheol, and this is precisely how Dr. Strong defines them:

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: #7585, "sheol, hades or the world of the dead."

Technically, I could end our study on the meaning of hades right here. I have already written two Installments on sheol in which we saw that sheol is the state of the dead--not hell, not even the grave, but the state of the dead. And as sheol IS hades, hades cannot take on any greater or opposing meaning that is not contained in an older parent language word "sheol."

No matter how fanciful one's ideas may be regarding the use of the word hades in the New Testament, it does not take on the meaning of consciousness, judging, torture, chastisement, annihilation, or eternity. It is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE, UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD called sheol throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

[2] Matt. 10:28 & Luke 12:5

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [Gehenna]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Luke's account is the same as Matthew's, however, it is a shorter version. From Matthew we learn that God is "able to destroy" our very soul in Gehenna. But that is not a wicked thing, but a good thing. It is a good thing to loose (apollumi-destroy) our carnal soul for God's sake, and this destruction of the soul for God takes place in Gehenne. See Matt. 10:39 losing (destroying, "mortifying the deeds of the body" Rom. 8:13) takes place in spiritual Gehenna, Verse 28.

[3] Matt. 18:8-9 & Mark 9:43, 45, 47

"Wherefore if your hand or your foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [eonian] fire. And if your eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell [Gehenna] fire" (Matt. 18:8-9).

This is the very same teaching Jesus gave on the Mount, but we now have one added factor. The "Gehenna fire" of verse 9 is also called "eonian fire" in verse 8. They are therefore the same. Eonian fire is Gehenna fire and Gehenna fie is eonian fire. This phrase "eonian fire" is found only one other time in Scripture:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [Gk: 'aionios/eonian' or 'age-abiding'] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

And so Matt. 18:8 is a pivotal Scripture in our understanding of Gehenna fire, everlasting fire, and lake of fire. The spiritual Gehenna fire, is the very same eonian fire which are used to Judge Gods people-the House of God. Then Jesus tells us it is also the very same fire that will be used to Judge Satan's messengers. And these messengers/angels of Satan are his "transformed" [Gk: metaschēmatizō, 'disguised'] ministers of righteousness: "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).

All of Satans ministers-the deceived clergymen of the Church, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH, will not be judged until the Resurrection to Judgment at the Great White Throne, and that Judgment is in The Lake of Fire. Thus we now have it on the authority of Jesus Christ, that Gehenna fire, eonian fire, and lake of fire, are all the same spiritual fire of God, seeing that "Our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29), and God does not change.

Jesus says that Gehenna fire is eonian, not eternal. And the ministers of Satan will go into this eonian fire. Now then if the fire is eonian for us, then it is likewise eonian for them. We only go through God's Gehenna/eonian fire for our eon, our life. A man's life is an eon, his eon. So eonian fire cannot be eternal, or we, God's chosen Elect, would go through Gehenna fire for all eternity. Now then, since it is only a temporary fire for us, the very SAME fire can be only temporary for the rest of humanity as well. Truly, the Scriptures do not contradict.

On the very same occasion recorded in Mark 9, we have two more additions to this teaching: The mention of "their worms die not," and "everyone shall be salted with fire."

We already discussed the meaning of these worms earlier in this paper. But this added phrase of our Lord is very instructive. Notice again that Jesus is speaking to His twelve apostles (Mark 9:35), not the multitudes. So, when He states that, "everyone shall be salted with fire" in Verse 49, He is telling His Apostles that THEY will be salted with fire. Hence this Gehenna fire cannot be eternal, but it is good, "Salt IS GOOD" (Verse 50).

This is admittedly a strange phrase, as technically we do not "salt" anything "with fire." It is a kind of play on words. As we salt food to bring out its best, so God will salt us with fire, to bring out our best. But once more, it is not eternal torture, it is temporary purification.

[4] Matt. 23:15 & 33

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

"You serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell [Gehenna]?"

This one might seem a little more severe on the surface than the others, but it's not. In the first verse Jesus says that they turn their proselytes into children of hell or Gehenna. Let's think about that for a moment. I have now been accused, literally hundreds of times, of leading people into hell, and that I will receive so much greater punishment and damnation from God for leading "others" into hell.

Imagine that? One person can be responsible for, and the single cause of another person loosing their salvation and then being tortured in literal fire for all eternity, and God can't or won't do anything about it. I guess it's just a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. If all those hundreds of thousands of people had just not come to our site for some reason, they would then be saved, but now they are being lead into the eternal torment of an eternal hell. What a Christian crock.

Imagine the mother and father of such a person that would be consigned to an eternity of torture because of my false and deceitful teachings, asking God why He didn't close me down? or prevent their daughter from coming to my site? or protecting them from being deceived by me in the first place? How hard could that be for God Almighty to save a precious son or daughter from being deceived by me? But no, it is assumed that I outsmarted God, and conquered one of His dear Sons or Daughters, and became the sole reason for them loosing their salvation. What do you suppose God would say to such a scenario? Well as it will not and cannot happen, we don't need to surmise such utter unscriptural nonsense.

Did the Pharisees encompass land and sea to make one proselyte and then turn that convert in a "child of Gehenna?" Yes, of course they did, Jesus said they did. But will that "child of Gehenna" loose salvation and be tortured eternally in some Christian hellhole of fire because they were outsmarted by these Satan-inspired clergymen? Of course not. Not only will those the Pharisees deceived and turned into children of Gehenna not loose salvation, but this hypocritical blind leaders of the blind will not loose salvation either.

Verse 33 tells us how they will be saved. They will be saved by "the DAMNATION of Gehenna." What is this damnation? It is JUDGMENT. We have gone over this many times in our "Lake of Fire" series. The word "damnation" is from the Greek word, krisis, and it means "tribunal, justice, accusation, condemnation, damnation, JUDGMENT." What specific judgment is Jesus talking about? Why the damnation of JUDGMENT OF GEHENNA. Is not this "judgment" then an evil thing? No, it is a RIGHTEOUS thing! It's just that the old English word "damnation" sounds so terrible and awful, when it is not.

WORM DIES NOT:

The word "worm" appears in most bibles three times in Mark 9. However, Mark 9:48 is the only time it appears in the earliest and best Greek manuscripts. Mark 9:44 is spurious, and Mark 9:45b ("...into the fire that never shall be quenched") and 9:46 are all spurious. The one time it is used in verse 44, it is a quotation from Isa. 66:24. Worm is translated from the Hebrew word Itola, and is defined as "a maggot." It's one time use in the Greek is from skolex, and also is defined as 'a maggot.' These are not tube worms at the bottom of the ocean, but rather maggots. And as any school boy knows, maggots are not immortal, but rather in a few short days turn into common house flies, which then lay more eggs on garbage, produce more maggots which then produce more flies to lay more eggs... And hence, they do not die [out] but just keep reproducing over and over. I am sure that some of the flies at your last picnic may have been descendants of the very maggots of which Jesus spoke of from the Gehenna city garbage dump at Jerusalem.

Now then, what was the purpose of these maggots and fire in the valley of Gehenna? To destroy that which is putrid and worthless; to purge; to purify the city of its garbage. That was their physical purpose and Jesus has the same thing in mind when He uses these symbols, word pictures, and analogies to represent His spiritual sin-purging judgments.

We know that Peter said, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the House of God..." (I Pet. 1:17); and that Paul said, "For if we would judge ourselves..." (I Cor. 10:31); and Jesus said that we ourselves must "Agree with our adversary quickly," and we ourselves must "pluck it [our eye] out and cast it from us," etc. But do all these things constitute being judged by "worms and fire?" Absolutely. Gehenna fire does not represent eternal torture in literal flames upon the wicked. It represents cleansing and purging of His called and chosen Elect, now, in this Church age.

GEHENNA FIRE IS EVERLASTING [EONIAN] FIRE:

Next notice that Judgment for offending with our eyes, hands, or feet, is once again called Gehenna fire in Matt. 18:9. But back in verse 8 this Judgment for the same sin is called "everlasting [Gk: 'aionios/eonian/age-lasting] fire."

So here we have Scriptural proof that Gehenna fire, and everlasting [eonian/age-abiding] fire are one and the same fire. And so "everlasting/eonian fire" is just another term for the judgment of Gehenna.

GEHENNA FIRE/EONIAN FIRE IS THE LAKE OF FIRE:

When Jesus returns to this earth in glory with His holy angels (Matt. 25:31), He will come with great power to JUDGE (Rev. 19:11), and those who oppose Him will be thrown into "a lake of fire" (Verse 20). Satan also is cast into this "lake of fire" (Rev. 20:10), and "death and hell/hades" is cast into this "lake of fire" (Verse 14).

Now then, what fire does Jesus say he will use for His judgment on the goats and on the Devil and his messengers? It is "everlasting/eonian/age-abiding fire" (Matt. 25:41). Once more we have clear Scriptural proof that all these descriptions of fiery Judgment are the very same fire, and that Fire is GOD:

"For our God is A CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

Gehenna fire is the furnace of fire, the unquenchable fire, the everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the lake of fire, as we just saw proven by Scripture.

Below is a good email response of Ray's regarding Hell(Hades) & Hellfire(Gehenna Fire).

[Ray replies]

Dear Robert:

Thank you for your e-mail and your demeaning curiosity about me.

First of all, maybe your professor should do his own homework before giving assignments which label people he knows nothing about.

I will try to answer your questions succinctly:

I am NOT a "cult." However, if you read the latest books on what constitutes a "cult," you will find that the [orthodox] Christian religion fits ALL the categories that qualify a religion as a cult.

I DO NOT have a "church." I belong to the body of Christ, which is the only true called-out assembly.

No, I do not hold that I alone have the correct interpretation of the Bible.

I DID NOT start a "religion!"

The Scriptural doctrines that I believe are NOT mine, and they are NOT new.

My "advanced training in the Bible" did not come from a school.

Yes, I believe that Jesus "rose from the dead." But, probably, unlike your professor, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS DEAD BEFORE HE WAS RAISED. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world--Jesus Christ's "body" did not die for the sins of the world! We do not have a "cadaver" for a Savior! Jesus Christ, "HE" (not just His dead body) is the savior of the world, therefore, contrary to Christian teaching, Jesus Christ's HIMSELF died, and Jesus Christ HIMSELF was raised from the dead!

What makes you think I accept the "bible" as being "inspired?" I believe the Holy Scriptures written in Hebrew and Greek ARE INSPIRED! Bibles are translations, or as with KJV a revision of a revision, and thus are open to human error.

I DO NOT HAVE "followers." I tell my readers to believe in and follow Jesus Christ!

And I pray to God that no one who reads my material thinks that I am a "prophet or priest!"

I hope this answers your questions. Be sure to show this note to your professor, and say "hello" for me.

Humbly in Christ's service,

Ray

Hope this helps, Samson.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: onelovedread on May 28, 2012, 11:46:27 AM

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm

JESUS AND HIS DISCIPLES ON THE MOUNT

The following verses taken from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount make it abundantly clear that Jesus was not addressing the Pharisees, or Saducees, or the Priests, or Scribes, or even the multitudes which did not follow Jesus up the mountain, but waited for His return. Rather, Jesus addressed His Own disciples (of whom there were initially, many) who followed Him up the mountain. These only He instructed regarding a much higher standard of conduct and judgment:

"...and when He was set, His DISCIPLES came unto Him" (Matt. 5:1)

"And He opened His mouth, and taught THEM [His disciples]" (Ver. 2).

"Blessed are YE [all you disciples]..." (Ver. 11).

"...for great is YOUR [disciples'] reward..." (Ver. 12).

"YE [disciples] are the salt of the earth..." (Ver. 13).

"YE [disciples] are the light of the world..." (Ver. 14).

"Let YOUR [disciples'] light so shine..." (Ver. 16).

"For verily I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 18).

"For I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 20).

"YE [disciples] have heard that it was said..." (Ver. 21).

"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... whosoever is angry..." (Ver. 22).

"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... shall say to his brother, Raca..." (Ver. 22).

"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... whosoever shall say , 'You fool' shall be in danger of hell [Gehenna] fire" (Ver. 22).

"Therefore if YOU [disciples] bring your gift..." (Ver. 23).

"Agree with YOUR [disciples] adversary quickly..." (Ver. 25).

"Veryily I say unto YOU [disciples], YOU [disciples] shall by no means come out thence, till YOU [disciples] have paid the uttermost farthing" (Ver. 26).

"But I say unto YOU [disciples], that whosoever looks on a woman to lust..." (Ver. 28).

"And if YOUR right eye offend YOU [disciples], pluck it out, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body [the bodies of Christ's disciples, not the wicked unbelievers in the day of Judgment] should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Ver. 29).

"And if YOUR right hand offend YOU, cut it off, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples of Mine] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Verse 30).

Any question as to whom Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount?" Is this "Gehenna fire" for the world of unbelieving sinners, or for His Own Disciples?

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 11:59:00 AM

Thanks a lot Samson for your information. I was not aware that Septuginta was in use in Israel at the time of Jesus. I know it was This was new information to me. I know it was written 200 years BC, but just thought it was used among the Jews in diaspora.

I agree with you on that onelovedread
This is another point that contradicts that Jesus talks about "hell" in the Sermon on the Mount. If he really wanted to warn people against an eternal damnation, why should he not tell this to all the people

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 02:18:54 PM

Quote from: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 06:26:44 AM

Gina I'm not sure if there were so many listeners when Jesus gave Sermon on the Mount. Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Looks like he was only preachint to his disciples

Yep, you're right. Just testing ya! hehe

Excellent replies, everybody. (You too Wasco55!)

Tah-tah

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 02:46:07 PM

And, a few more thoughts, Wasco55, to put your mind at ease:

Though we know there isn't, let's suppose for the sake of argument there were such a place of never-ending/eternal suffering made for the wicked and unbelieving. Wouldn't that:

1. make God out to be more wicked and evil than Satan, or Hitler, or Sadam and a thousand others throughout history all together?

2. make Jesus an utter and total failure, seeing He would not be able to save / free people from the law of SIN and DEATH? (Sorry, Jesus, I know you want to, but I'm afraid my sin is just too much for you to do anything about. The thought is ridiculous.)

3. make God stupid for commissioning Jesus to be the Savior of the WHOLE WORLD (seeing how Jesus would then fail at saving the whole world).

And lastly, it would:

4. make not one bit of sense. Why would God make something (humanity) knowing full well (the end from the beginning) that it will malfunction (after all, the flesh is weak), and then toss the majority of humanity in a furnace of literal fire and brimstone to be burned for ever and ever and ever (I jest) as punishment when it does the very thing He knew all along it would do?

We just have to believe God and not fraudulent theologians. It's that simple. Easier said than done for some of us. It's going take time, and lots of it, to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

But some believe Jesus will fail at that. I don't think so.

God bless.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Samson on May 28, 2012, 03:25:56 PM

Quote from: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 11:59:00 AM

Thanks a lot Samson for your information. I was not aware that Septuginta was in use in Israel at the time of Jesus. I know it was This was new information to me. I know it was written 200 years BC, but just thought it was used among the Jews in diaspora.

I agree with you on that onelovedread
This is another point that contradicts that Jesus talks about "hell" in the Sermon on the Mount. If he really wanted to warn people against an eternal damnation, why should he not tell this to all the people

Actually Wasco55, My apologies, I gave you the wrong Email of Ray's regarding Gehenna, Read Below ! That's what happens when I rush trying to get many things done with 1 3/4 of a Leg, ;).

Dear Dan:

I am sure that you are completely convinced that what I am saying in my material is wrong, evil, and of the devil. You are primarily basing all of that on a few mistranslation and false teachings of Christendom.

Your knowledge of the word "hell" is quite lacking. Hell has NOTHING to do with fire. "Hell fire" mentioned in the KJV is from the Greek word "Gehenna." It is a valley south of Jerusalem. It used to be the city garbage dump. As such it was on fire. As garbage and organic materials were constantly thrown into this fire, the worms there did not die out, but kept on multiplying until there was nothing left to eat. The valley is STILL in Jerusalem, Dan, but the fire is OUT and there are no WORMS there.

The word "hell" in the KJV is translated from the Greek word "Hades" which means the UNSEEN or etymologically, UN=PERCEIVE or IMPERCEPTIBLE. There can NOT be feelings, torture, pain, etc., in a place that by its very name means to have NO PERCEPTION OF ANYTHING!! People must first be resurrected from Hades before they will have perception again.

Are you interested enough in the Word of God to study this word and see if I am correct?

In Luke 8, the demons did not fear going to "hell." Read it, Dan, they feared being put back into the "deep" as it is in KJV or more properly the "submerged chaos." It is the SAME word translated "bottomless pit" in Rev. where Satan is held for a thousand years, and THEN he is put into the "lake of fire" (Ver. 10). (He is held in the pit because God has one more dirty work for Satan to perform before he begins his purification in the lake of fire (not the pit).

There is NO WORD in either the Hebrew or Greek scriptures that means "eternal" or "everlasting" or "for ever and ever." Since there is NO SUCH WORD IN THE BIBLE, all such translations are WRONG and misleading. See the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee for absolute proof of this. If you don't agree, prove me wrong SCRIPTURALLY!

Dan, on a personal note. I know you feel very smug and comfortable in calling me OF THE DEVIL and that the DEVIL HAS ME and that I AM OF MY FATHER THE DEVIL, etc., etc. However, a word of warning: The one time that the Pharisees accused Jesus of doing something of the devil or the prince of demons, He warned them that if something really is of THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD and one says that that is really THE SPIRIT OF THE DEVIL, then they have committed a sin that will NOT be pardoned in this life (or age or world) or in the age to come. Such people WILL have to suffer the punishments of the lake of fire to be purified of such evil sins.

Sincerely,

Ray

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: wasco55 on May 29, 2012, 02:19:14 AM

Thank's a lot Gina for sharing these thoughts with me

Thank's once again to Samson also
I enjoyed Ray's explanation of Hades. This is the best interpretation of this word I've ever seen

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 30, 2012, 11:45:30 AM

Does anyone here remember what things where like in say....the year 1800 ? No, of course not. And that is because we had not been born yet, we did not exist. This is what hades ("hell") is like. Before we are born we do not exist (except maybe in the mind of God ). Then when we are born (given life), we experience "death" and return to that same sate of being, and that state being "dead" ( no life ).

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 30, 2012, 01:32:38 PM

"Does anyone remember what things were like in the year 1800"? Bad example, David. We can't go back there, but we have some records, David. Even pictures/paintings. But I see what you're trying to say. It's just not quite right. Not to argue.

When people die they don't know they're dead. But they're loved ones do! Do you know and feel the emptiness of someone that was there and now isn't? Maybe, maybe not. But my memory isn't erased of them simply because they are now dead.

So no, it's not like the year 1800.

Not to be pushy, but have you had an opportunity to study any of Ray's papers, David?

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 30, 2012, 02:45:56 PM

A better example, if we absolutely have to use one that Ray hasn't already used or isn't in the bible, might be to ask

"Do you remember what you were thinking when you were put under anesthesia when you had your gallbladder removed?"

I remember nothing when my wisdom teeth were removed. I was out for 45 minutes at least and when I woke up, it felt like I closed my eyes for a few seconds and then woke right back up. That's what death is like.

David, your example is like saying, "You can't possibly know what Abraham Lincoln was like at all because you weren't born yet -- you weren't there."

But that's not right because we have records and pictures so we can kind of know.

But death is like sleep, it is not like "not being alive in the 1800."

And not being born yet is not the same thing as having been alive and now being dead. But I see what you're saying.

Again, I don't mean to be argumentative. Just paying attention to all the words. :)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 30, 2012, 05:39:32 PM

Thanks Gina, but I think you missed a word....."remember", as in first hand knowledge, actually being there in time. We have no knowledge, or memory, or anything of any time before we are born into this world. The same applies to death, the state of being is the same. And as to sleep, did you know that medical science today , as advanced as it is cannot tell us why we sleep ? They can figure out how we sleep, and when, etc. But they cannot say why. But if they , as a scientific community, knew God they would understand. When we go to sleep at night, it is a picture of our death, and when we wake up in the morning, when we "rise" ( "rise and shine" ), it is a picture of our ressurection from death. The Father has a way of hiding things in plain sight.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 30, 2012, 06:52:22 PM

That is fascinating, David. :)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 30, 2012, 09:04:42 PM

It is , isn't it Gina. And not because we can see it, but because it's true. The physical reveals the spiritual in many ways. Take water for example. God uses water to symbolize His Spirit. And God, through His Spirit can be the most destructive force on earth ( and no surprise He used water before ) , or the most healing, regenerative, life giving force on earth. And physical water on this planet is the most powerful physical force on earth, while at the same time is also the most life sustaining force on earth. I marvel all the time at the beauty and majesty of this physical creation we are a part of. It has His signature all over it. So thats why He can say we (man) are without excuse .

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Cypress on May 30, 2012, 10:47:02 PM

I love that. I think I'm going to cry :).

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 10:12:00 AM

Hey Gina, just wanted to respond to your question about "if I have had the oppurtunity to study any of Ray's papers". Yes Gina, I have read most if not all of his teaching. But you most know that the truths Rays taught, I did not learn from him. I already knew these things before I read his work. Truth is revealed, not learned. Oh yes, I know that we can "learn" from someone, but whoever that person is, it is not that person teaching us.

"Whom shall He teach knowledge ? And whom shall He make to understand doctrine ? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little "

I have never been a part of any of this world's church ( false ) system. The Father called me from my mothers womb. I was born to know the truth. ( as all of the elect of God are ). He has already determined our path, who, when , where, etc. So it matters not how we got to where we are. All that matters is that we are here.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on May 31, 2012, 11:40:22 AM

Hi whyisthatso,

Quote

I have never been a part of any of this world's church ( false ) system. The Father called me from my mothers womb. I was born to know the truth. ( as all of the elect of God are ). He has already determined our path, who, when , where, etc. So it matters not how we got to where we are. All that matters is that we are here.

This comment of yours gives me pause. "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4), certainly I see this is true. But I do not feel that our eyes are opened to the truth from birth, in Scripture the Holy spirit comes and your eyes are opened as mature adults. First we are all deceived (Titus3:3), we go to church hear about Christ (first love), are taught the man made doctrines and we do leave our first love (Rev2:4). So then after we have had our "experience in evil" (Ecc1:13) and have developed a dark backdrop, then we are called out this darkness (2Cor6:17; Rev18:4) and He shows us His marvelous truth.

1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

So what I am saying is that I believe we do go into the false church, Babylon and then are called out. Yes if we are Elect we will with a certainty be prepared and made ready by the time of our death. But any Elect would be kept humble and not be presumptuous about being chosen and continue to strive to endure to the end.

2Ti 2:11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
v. 12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
v. 13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 01:48:30 PM

Oh, boy, David. I don't know about all that.

Kat? ----------------> http://youtu.be/AWtZ1TqMq4g (http://youtu.be/AWtZ1TqMq4g)

:-D

(Just kiddin' David! I have my doubts about you, but you're fascinating and very smart, if nothing else.)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 02:41:42 PM

Thank you for your reply, David. I wanted to respond to your post (perhaps a little more appropriately? I'm easily amused I guess) now that I have a little more time.

I'll say it again - you are very smart. Yes, these things are revealed to us by the Spirit. I agree. Paul even said something of that very sort.

I suppose it's alright that you never were a part of the world's false church system, but when did you leave your "First love"? Hmmmmm? ;) ;D

:)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 03:08:11 PM

Speaking of John the Baptist:

for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb;... Luke 1:15 YLT

Wasn't John one of God's elect even from his mother's womb?

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 03:18:24 PM

'fraid not.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 03:22:03 PM

Quote from: Gina on May 31, 2012, 03:18:24 PM

'fraid not.

Please explain.

There is only one spirit of God.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 03:36:05 PM

So, am I to take Luke 1:15 as a spurious verse even though it says that John was filled with the Holy Spirit right from the get go? What else does one need to be an elect of God?

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 03:44:36 PM

Doug, he didn't even know who Jesus Christ was:

Matt. 11:2-3 When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 04:11:00 PM

Quote from: Gina on May 31, 2012, 03:44:36 PM

Doug, he didn't even know who Jesus Christ was:

Matt. 11:2-3 When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Gina, In my opinion, that verse has nothing to do with John being filled with the Holy Spirit. What John had said was because of doubt. He was afraid for his life. He was in a fox hole so to speak. He didn't understand that while he was imprisoned, it wasn't what he had anticipated. He was frightened and he wanted to know for sure that what he had seen when the Dove came upon, was surely the One.

The Comforter is another name for God's spirit. It was "poured out" at the time of pentecost. That doesn't mean that no one ever had the Holy Spirit before.

There is only one spirit of God. Eph. 4:4.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 04:27:04 PM

Luke 12:2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

I am not a teacher. I don't have the answer for you. I'm sorry. But it will come to you and to me. Fear not!

All I know is, Jesus Christ's death and resurrection ushered in the new covenant, for which John the Baptist was not around to partake. He was doubting -- I would have been too! Afraid? So was Jesus before his crucifiixion. I would have been too!

Was John the Baptist "filled with" or "moved by" the Spirit of God? Doesn't matter. There were others moved by the Spirit of God in the OT. Neither will they be in the first resurrection. But ALL will be saved through the same FIRE.

Again: There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. ( Luke 12:2 ) You will know the answer eventually.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 04:41:05 PM

Thanks for your encouragement JFK and Gina. :)

I am convinced that what you have to say is true. Do you know how Ray would say that he was playing the "devils advocate"?
Well, that is what I am doing now... only not like Ray... who knew the Truth beforehand... the Truth hasn't been revealed to me as yet, so I have to propose these types of questions in order to get it all straightened out in my mind. Can you follow me?

I know it will all eventually fall into place... but in the mean time it makes me "antsy"! I know - patience doug - patience! :-\

I'm eagarly waiting for you to get off work and for your response John. 8)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 04:48:30 PM

Thanks, Doug. I totally understand and I'm glad you brought it up. It was a great question and one I'd never encountered before. Thank God we have all of Ray's material to refer to!

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 05:01:02 PM

Maybe this will also help:

Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on May 31, 2012, 05:24:04 PM

Hi Doug,

Quote

The Comforter is another name for God's spirit. It was "poured out" at the time of pentecost. That doesn't mean that no one ever had the Holy Spirit before.

I think that the Holy Spirit certainly worked with/upon people in the OT, but there is no other way to be saved accept through Jesus Christ, He is key and absolutely necessary in the process. I know the God of the OT is who became Jesus Christ, but He was not yet Jesus Christ who died on the cross as a sacrifice for sin before He was born of Mary.

John 10:1 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who does not enter into the sheepfold by the door (Jesus Christ), but going up by another way, that one is a thief and a robber.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
v. 11 And not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Here are a few places where Ray speaks on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3120.0 ---------------------------

Acts 4:12 And there is no salvation in any other one, for neither is there any other name, given under heaven among men, in which we must be saved."

The word "must" (Greek means 'necessary, behooves, binding') shows that salvation
can not come by or through any other ways or means, than the NAME of Jesus Christ, ONLY.
Hence, the emphasis upon that Name. Jews, for example, cannot be saved in the Name of "God" aside from the Name of Jesus as John Hagee teaches. They MUST acknowledge the "Name" of Jesus Christ.

http://bible-truths.com/part2.htm -----------------------------------

And here is their only salvation:

"And there is NO salvation in any other one, for neither is there any other name, given under heaven among men, in which we MUST be saved." (Acts 4:12)

How could anyone have the audacity to suggest that Africans and Chinese by the billions are responsible for their own salvation through their "conscience" without any knowledge of God or Christ's blood and His sacrifice for them? If a person can be saved by his "conscience," then he doesn't need Jesus Christ. Do you really want to teach such a farce?

Look at the twelve hand-picked Apostles. They walked and talked with Jesus day and night, seeing miracle after miracle for three and one-half years. Yet in Gethsemane they all forsook Him. Peter cursed His Savior three times in one night. And you would have us believe that man, in himself, has the ability to do right and walk the walk and qualify for salvation? You might respond: "But I never said that." Sure you did. You only say it's all of God and pretend to give God all the credit for salvation, but in the end, your teaching always holds man responsible for his own salvation. Why else did you invent your own analogy?

According to modern Christian teaching, if the twelve Apostles had all been killed that night in the Garden by the Roman soldiers, they would have all gone to "Hell!" Theologians would say: "They had their chance." Well, if salvation is a thing of "chance" then I guess they had a better "chance" than most people. But they blew their "chance" didn't they? Why can't we learn from these simple Scriptures? These twelve Apostles lived closer and longer in an intimate relationship with our Lord than any other human beings in the history of the World, and yet, after three and one-half years they all rejected and forsook Him, all in one night.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2385.0.html --------------------

John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm -----------------------------

Here is the briefest outline of how God "saves us:"

Jesus Christ must first "CHOOSE" us (John 15:16). You don’t choose Him until He first chooses you. You have no "free will" by which you choose Christ. Christ CHOOSES YOU, or you aren’t chosen. (Be sure to read my four-part series on "Exposing the Myth of Free Will" on this site).

The Father then "DRAWS" [Gk: ‘drags us’]" us to Christ (John 6:44). You don’t come without an invite. What may seem like a "free choice" on your part to come to Christ, in reality is the Father dragging you by many unseen circumstances beyond your view or control.

By GRACE, God gifts us with FAITH (Eph. 2:08. Both are from God; man contributes NOTHING. If you don’t give God credit for all of your faith then you don’t have any faith, because faith comes ONLY from God.

Then "the goodness of GOD leads you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4). Our repentance originates in GOD, not in ourselves. If God doesn’t lead someone to repentance then they CAN’T REPENT.

We are spiritually "BAPTIZED into Christ’s death" (Rom. 6:3).

"For he that is dead is freed from sin… For SIN SHALL NOT have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under GRACE" (Rom. 6:7 & 14).

And it is the grace of God ONLY that will save us. But HOW and WHEN? What does it mean to be "under grace?" Answer:

"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: ‘to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach’] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).

If you are not doing this and growing every day, then you are not being graced by God, and you are not on your way to salvation. The grace of God WILL DISCIPLINE AND CHASTEN us into obedience to all of God’s Spiritual laws and commandments.

"Whosoever will come after Me, let him DENY himself, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME" (Mark 8:34).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I decided to add this last excerpt to show all that is require in God's plan for our salvation. So just trying to show you the teaching where I gained my understnding on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 05:40:46 PM

We read in Heb 11:39-40, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Was this promise these faithful saints didn't receive in this verse that of receiving the Holy Spirit or that of obtaining the first resurrection after death? Or something else? The answer to this question must, in my opinion, take into consideration that the chapter is about the especially faithful. Sometimes, it is helpful to concentrate on one word of a verse in question and find the same word in the context. (I know Ray's "context, context, context" so I believe I am using the term correctly!). In this case the word is "better". We read in Heb 11:35, "...that they might obtain a better resurrection."

What is a better resurrection? I believe it is a resurrection unto rewards. We read in Rev. 20:4 that those of the tribulation who will not receive the mark of the beast will partake in the first resurrection and will reign with Christ a thousand years. Actually, all believers will be raised at the first resurrection including those of Heb 11, but not all believers will reign with Christ. That is a special reward for the faithful.

This is best seen in II Tim in regard to believers of the present dispensation. We read in II Tim 2:12. "If we suffer we shall also reign with Him." Of course, in my opinion, our reigning will be with Christ; and the faithful saints of Hebrews and Revelation will reign on earth (but not with Christ). But it's the same principle, i.e. the faithful will be rewarded by reigning.

Consider also I Cor 9:24:25, "know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible". Note the "crown", it denotes reigning. This tells us that all faithful believers will reign with Christ.

So the promise the saints of Heb 11 had not yet received was, in my opinion, the "better" resurrection". A better resurrection is a resurrection unto the reward of reigning with Christ. Far from Heb 11:40 having to do with anyone not being spiritually converted, it is a promise "of some better thing".

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on May 31, 2012, 06:18:04 PM

Hi Doug,

All Scripture must fit together in perfect harmony, you can not exclude the verse in Acts 4:11 that I gave you which states "for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved" and others like it.

Here is an email that addresses the Hebrews 11:35.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,973.msg8056.html#msg8056 -----

Are you saying that no one from the OT will be in the 1st. resurrection? In Heb. 11 it mentions a number of people who suffered that v.35 they might obtain a better resurrection. Luke 13:28 says the patriarchs will be in the K. of G. while others are denied entrance at that time. I understand that all will eventually receive eternal life. Is it not correct to say that all will enter the Kingdom (which lasts forever and is handed to the Father) after receiving eternal life 1sr. Cor. 15:24; Dan. 7:27?
May God continue to use you to free many of us from our enslavement to HWA's teaching.
Mel

Dear Mel:
The fact that some will enter into the Kingdom before others, does not necessarily mean that those will, therefore, be in the first resurrection. Remember that in judgment some will be given few stripes (as I suspect the patriarchs of old will be), and other MANY stripes, which indicates that those with many stripes will come in at a later time. In Rev. 21 we see people entering into the city, but without, there are those who are not as yet entering in.

Read verse 40 of Heb. 11: "God having provided some better thing for US [for 'us' not 'them']. that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect" It is only through US, that THEY will thereafter [after the first resurrection] be perfected (make complete).

Even King David (a man after God's Own heart), died a MURDERER. He appointed his son Solomon as a hit man to KILL David's enemies after he was gone. And James tells us that "he who hates his brother is a murderer, and no murderer has eternal [eonian] life abiding in him."

God be with you,
Ray

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 06:19:12 PM

Thanks Kat for the input

The verses that you give are talking about salvation. It's understood by all of us that the term salvation is not an "instant" concept but won't occur until either at the first resurrection or at some time in another age. But eventually all will be saved.

And yes, there is no other name under heaven that anyone can be saved. The verses you showed proved that. He is the Door by which we enter etc.. Therefore in this life time - dispensation - no atheist, buddist, Muslim, confuciest, or what I am understanding now... any "church goer" will be "saved" in this generation... before Jesus Christ comes back for the first resurrection. I believe what those verses you supplied are saying that you cannot be "saved" by any other god. Only THE God, Jesus Christ. In my opinion they do not apply to the Holy Spirit indwelling someone or who will or will not be in the first resurrection.

I don't believe that just by His physical appearance while on earth, that that is what is needed for someone to enter in the first resurrection but that it WAS needed in order to be "saved" in this age and of course the next.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on May 31, 2012, 06:38:44 PM

Hi Doug,

Quote

In my opinion they do not apply to the Holy Spirit indwelling someone or who will or will not be in the first resurrection.

This Holy Spirit indwelling that saves anybody is Christ's Spirit. But it was not given until He was crucified and returned to the Father.

John 7:39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.

1Peter 1:10 About which salvation the prophets sought out and searched out, prophesying concerning the grace for you;
v. 11 searching for what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ made clear within them, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow.
v. 12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 06:39:02 PM

Thanks Kat, and Gina. You kinda tag-teamed me there.......wooaa, just getting up now, ok , up. Seriously though, thanks to all of you for your input. I don't quite know what to say Kat. I could say something like, " Let he who thinks he stands take heed, lest he falls ", but I dont think thats appropriate. I could tell you all about my life, but I dont want to bore you either. And besides I dont think you would believe me anyway. All I can do is ask you if you believe that all the truth that God revealed to Ray is all there is to know and understand ? And do you suppose that Ray is the only person that God has called to teach them ? Please do not think that I am one to teach, I would never assume that title and position. "title and position", now that reminds me of another question. Have any of you been given any understanding of the "kingdom (government) of God" as it pertains to such ? Or do you believe that we will all be the same somehow ? Not that we are all the same now, but thats irrelevant . ( or is it ?). Just curious, honestly.
It is my understanding that when Christ spoke of the first being last and the last first, He was not speaking of order, as in the resurrecton from the dead. But that He was speaking of position in the Kingdom. We have many scriptures that tell us that most (if not all) of the OT "saints" received God's Spirit (Christ), and will be there. But many (if not most) of them will not be "first" in terms of position. Even as much as they endured and went through, they are not as qualified to rule over this earth as Gods elect today and future, for the simple reason, among others, that they lived in a different age.|
Also do you believe that the "church" started with Christ, or do you suppose it has always existed ? Like the "church in the wilderness" for example ? Honestly, I'm just trying to understand better. Thats all I have ever wanted to do...... since birth, honestly . I have a lot of questions Kat, I always have. And the fact that God blessed me enough to ask them and to know and understand the answers to many.......from birth, without any of this worlds false indoctrination, I cannot appologize for. Maybe I am a misfit, or oddball somehow, I dont know. Or maybe a "virgin" ?

In love, David

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 07:04:14 PM

Quote from: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 06:39:02 PM

Thanks Kat, and Gina. You kinda tag-teamed me there.......wooaa, just getting up now, ok , up. Seriously though, thanks to all of you for your input. I don't quite know what to say Kat. I could say something like, " Let he who thinks he stands take heed, lest he falls ", but I dont think thats appropriate. I could tell you all about my life, but I dont want to bore you either. And besides I dont think you would believe me anyway. All I can do is ask you if you believe that all the truth that God revealed to Ray is all there is to know and understand ? And do you suppose that Ray is the only person that God has called to teach them ? Please do not think that I am one to teach, I would never assume that title and position. "title and position", now that reminds me of another question. Have any of you been given any understanding of the "kingdom (government) of God" as it pertains to such ? Or do you believe that we will all be the same somehow ? Not that we are all the same now, but thats irrelevant . ( or is it ?). Just curious, honestly.
It is my understanding that when Christ spoke of the first being last and the last first, He was not speaking of order, as in the resurrecton from the dead. But that He was speaking of position in the Kingdom. We have many scriptures that tell us that most (if not all) of the OT "saints" received God's Spirit (Christ), and will be there. But many (if not most) of them will not be "first" in terms of position. Even as much as they endured and went through, they are not as qualified to rule over this earth as Gods elect today and future, for the simple reason, among others, that they lived in a different age.|
Also do you believe that the "church" started with Christ, or do you suppose it has always existed ? Like the "church in the wilderness" for example ? Honestly, I'm just trying to understand better. Thats all I have ever wanted to do...... since birth, honestly . I have a lot of questions Kat, I always have. And the fact that God blessed me enough to ask them and to know and understand the answers to many.......from birth, without any of this worlds false indoctrination, I cannot appologize for. Maybe I am a misfit, or oddball somehow, I dont know. Or maybe a "virgin" ?

In love, David

Well, David, you just said it. Can't unring a bell. lol

I know Ray said he didn't know all there was to know, so obviously there is more to know and understand. But we're going at the pace that God has set for us -- not you. And we have a lot to learn from Ray, still. So, maybe you could try and exercise a little patience with us.

And since you brought it up, please tell me about your life. I'll be honest. I googled your moniker and found you on the forum "Bible Unmasked" back in 2008. Why did you make a prediction regarding comets impacting the earth in the years 2012-14 ("no pun intended")? Nothing boring about that. What do you know that the rest of us don't know? lol

And why did you say on that forum that all things originate from Thought (aka God)? Is that what God is? Thought? Not judging. Just trying to understand better. I'm pretty open minded, but learning to not be so open minded that my brains fall out. hehe

Thanks.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on May 31, 2012, 07:27:58 PM

Hi David,

I can see that you are seeking and wanting to discuss these truths. I will tell you this about what I believe. I was 25 yrs in several churches, seeking to serve and obey, I really wanted to do God's will and put a lot of effort into it. But it was a hopeless thing, because I was striving to serve God with my own power, I had not yet been given the Holy Spirit or had my eyes opened. I 'happened' upon the BT site and was very intrigued and started reading, it's been 6 1/2 yrs and I have never looked back.

Ray was prepared and then sent out to teach and God fulfilled that mission in him very well. No, of course I do not believe that Ray had all the truth. But what truth he did have and taught was more than enough from which to build a solid foundation on, with his great use of multiple Scripture witnesses. I didn't just accept what Ray taught, I studied it in the Scriptures very much, I had been in church long enough and did not want to be deceived again.

But without a doubt it takes the Holy Spirit indwelling to see and understand these truths, that is bared out in all the hate emails that Ray received from people that did not understand.

I have just been discussing with Doug about those in the OT not being in the first resurrection, you can see it in the above posts. It's not that they did not have faith and didn't serve God good enough, the first resurrection is reserved for a very few, that are unworthy, have done nothing to earn and qualify for it. It is a gift pure and simple to a few "base things" of this world "that no man should glory/boost." These undeserving Elect are a few predestined to be prepared in this life time and used by God for HIS glory, but that want come till the next age. What better way than to show His glory than to bring the least likely to salvation in the first resurrection?

The church started when Jesus Christ sent His Holy Spirit to those first believers at Pentecost. He has been adding to those ever since, those He has predestined to be called out and chosen all the way up until now. I would not dare to say who is or is not and Elect, but when you are speaking with a person sometimes I feel a kindred spirit with them. So I just keep studing these things and seeking the truth as God sees fit to give it and I feel the Spirit of Truth indwelling will keep us on the right path :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 07:34:33 PM

Kat - please, please do not think that I am trying to be argumentative in any way. I am not a teacher and I am not an arguer... I am just searching for the truth. Like I said, it will come to me eventually.

Now, to the verses you gave: "Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

What is meant by the phrase, "as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."? We read in Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you." This was said just before His ascension and it speaks of what will be received in the future. Note that both Jn 7:39 and Acts 1:8 speak of that which is given/received after Christ's ascension/glorification. But Acts 1:8 makes it clear that it is "power". That tells us that it is the gifts from the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled after Christ's ascension as we read in Acts 2:4, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit moved them."

In other words Jn 7:39 is speaking of gifts from the Holy Spirit that were received on the day of Pentecost. When those gifts were received the result was that they spoke in tongues. In my opinion, the gifts from the Holy Spirit have nothing at all to do with salvation.

Now to John 16:7 - "Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that i go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.".

The Greek word translated "Comforter" in Jn 16:7 is also used in the following passages: Jn 14:16-18; Jn 14:26; Jn 15:26; & Jn 16:7-15. And in John 2:1 the word is Advocate.

Nowhere do we read that the Comforter gives eternal life. He does many things, but don't forget He comes to believers, i.e. those who are already converted, He does not come to convert them.

In my opinion, i believe there are several difficulties with the belief that comes with the understanding that one must have the Holy Spirit in order to be "saved" (which I believe we both agree that many are called but few are chosen) and He "was not given until Pentecost."

What was sent at Pentecost was the gifts from the Holy Spirit. Those gifts, in my opinion, had nothing to do with salvation. And at Pentecost we are told quite specifically in Acts 1 that what was received was "power" from the Holy Spirit which allowed them to speak in tongues, i.e. nothing to do with salvation.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on May 31, 2012, 08:17:45 PM

Hi Doug,

I am willing to discuss things as much as needed, as long as I feel someone is considering all of the Scriptures in proving a point.

Quote

Note that both Jn 7:39 and Acts 1:8 speak of that which is given/received after Christ's ascension/glorification. But Acts 1:8 makes it clear that it is "power". That tells us that it is the gifts from the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled after Christ's ascension as we read in Acts 2:4, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit moved them."

In other words Jn 7:39 is speaking of gifts from the Holy Spirit that were received on the day of Pentecost. When those gifts were received the result was that they spoke in tongues. In my opinion, the gifts from the Holy Spirit have nothing at all to do with salvation.

I am trying to follow what you are saying here. The "gifts" that any Elect receive is to help one another in this walk.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
v. 4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
v. 5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
v. 6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
v. 7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

Quote

Nowhere do we read that the Comforter gives eternal life. He does many things, but don't forget He comes to believers, i.e. those who are already converted, He does not come to convert them.

In my opinion, i believe there are several difficulties with the belief that comes with the understanding that one must have the Holy Spirit in order to be "saved" (which I believe we both agree that many are called but few are chosen) and He "was not given until Pentecost."

I trying to understand how you are seeing the Holy Spirit, you seem to be saying it is separate from God? The Holy Spirit is the power of God, as the Father and Christ are One and He gave all things to Christ, it is also the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit-Comforter, He is the "bread of life." ALL THINGS are through Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
v. 10 For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings.

John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.
v. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives LIFE to the world.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------------------------------

On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!

It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!

"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).

The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,

"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 08:23:14 PM

Thank you Gina for the fine compliment earlier, but I am not "smart" in any way. Now if you had used the word "wise" as in wisdom, I might not be so quick to relent. What ever I know and understand is not mine. As for me, I am nothing and nobody. But, to be more specific if you must know. I am a 56 year old "grease monkee", aka mechanic (45 years), I work 12-15 hours everyday (literally), with an almost debilitating arthritic condition (thanks mom), I live with a mentally ill wife ( bipolar) .....who can be quite abusive at times, almost 30 years now, with 2 rebellious daughters (well 1 at least), eyeball in debt trying to support all of them ( I'm 56 ).........and lets see, oh I struggle with sexual lust ( as I believe most men do....yes, you guys too), and have had no intimacy with my wife for almost 20 years who hates my guts.........and, well I think you get the picture.
And I THANK GOD for ALL of it, every night and everyday. As for me making any predictions on line in the past about the future, all I can say is you either misread the subject matter or else you misunderstood it. I am no "prophet: ....per say. What else would you like to know Gina ? I am not ashamed of Christ.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on May 31, 2012, 08:25:37 PM

Quote from: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 06:39:02 PM

It is my understanding that when Christ spoke of the first being last and the last first, He was not speaking of order, as in the Resurrection from the dead. But that He was speaking of position in the Kingdom. We have many scriptures that tell us that most (if not all) of the OT "saints" received God's Spirit (Christ), and will be there. But many (if not most) of them will not be "first" in terms of position. Even as much as they endured and went through, they are not as qualified to rule over this earth as Gods elect today and future, for the simple reason, among others, that they lived in a different age.|

David, I alluded to your comment in my comments about Hebrews 11 a couple posts back. I believe as you have suggested that it has something to do with "positions" and/or "rewards" and not only if or do not reign with Christ while on the earth or not.

It gets to be pretty complicated stuff until we blend all of the right scriptures relating to the matter.

doug

btw - I usually spell my name with a lower case "d" as there are at least two other Doug's on this forum.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 08:27:08 PM

Gina, oh, I forgot.......I was born dirt poor, 6 of us kids, with an alcoholic father who abused all of us.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 08:39:18 PM

Gina, in case you are wondering about the 12-15 hour work day comment, when you know I have been in the forum all week, it is because I am on "vacation" this week, and work on my house and in my garage all week to late at night. Thats what I do when I take a vacation.....work. And today is no exception either. Just so would know.

David

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 08:47:57 PM

Well, David, I'm glad that you found us. I hope we can all work together to be the best we can possibly be for and to each other.

And with that, I'm out of this particular discussion. :)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 09:51:28 PM

Thank you Gina for your understanding. But I did not answer your other question about when I "left my first love"...and by that I understand you to mean when did I leave or come out of this worlds false apostacy. I didn't, because I was never in it. So I would like to know when did the litteral, physical church at Ephesus, the one that received John's letter personally, the ones that were meeting in secret in fear of their very lives, when did they leave an apostate system ? Oh, I know "anti-christianity " ( in place of christ ) was around then, but it was not organized to any point. And certainly not a world wide force. So what "love " did they leave.......their "first love" at that.
What I "hear" when I read the letter is Christ warning them of turning away from the TRUTH, and warning them to repent of it. This has been the problem with Gods "church" from the beginning and the ages since. They allowed false teaching (doctrine) to come in and accepted it as truth. Christ and all the apostles warned of this throughout the new testament. I know what you understand, but to leave ones first love is to leave the Truth . And I have done that defore, not as in a group, but individually, personally, as has all before. When we do that we leave Him (The Truth) and we leave "Love" ( what God is ). Then we must repent of it. " ...and God will send them ( the apostate system ) strong delusion, because they received not the LOVE OF THE TRUTH " They did not receive it because it was not offered them. They are deaf and blind, and are because God purposed them to be. They are in "darkness" as Kat commented. And I know God calls many out of this false system......like in Revelation when He told His servants to go out and beat the bushes, so to speak.

Sorry for the windbagging, I will leave you in peace.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on May 31, 2012, 10:05:58 PM

Quote from: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 09:51:28 PM

Thank you Gina for your understanding. But I did not answer your other question about when I "left my first love"...and by that I understand you to mean when did I leave or come out of this worlds false apostacy. I didn't, because I was never in it. So I would like to know when did the litteral, physical church at Ephesus, the one that received John's letter personally, the ones that were meeting in secret in fear of their very lives, when did they leave an apostate system ? Oh, I know "anti-christianity " ( in place of christ ) was around then, but it was not organized to any point. And certainly not a world wide force. So what "love " did they leave.......their "first love" at that.
What I "hear" when I read the letter is Christ warning them of turning away from the TRUTH, and warning them to repent of it. This has been the problem with Gods "church" from the beginning and the ages since. They allowed false teaching (doctrine) to come in and accepted it as truth. Christ and all the apostles warned of this throughout the new testament. I know what you understand, but to leave ones first love is to leave the Truth . And I have done that defore, not as in a group, but individually, personally, as has all before. When we do that we leave Him (The Truth) and we leave "Love" ( what God is ). Then we must repent of it. " ...and God will send them ( the apostate system ) strong delusion, because they received not the LOVE OF THE TRUTH " They did not receive it because it was not offered them. They are deaf and blind, and are because God purposed them to be. They are in "darkness" as Kat commented. And I know God calls many out of this false system......like in Revelation when He told His servants to go out and beat the bushes, so to speak.

Sorry for the windbagging, I will leave you in peace.

No, it's all good. Thank you. What you said makes perfect sense to me.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on June 01, 2012, 12:07:18 AM

Please excuse my error, the verse is in the parables in Mathew and Luke. My mind is in Revelation a lot these days.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on June 01, 2012, 12:10:13 AM

JFK - If you would like to take the time... please unravel me. I know that you are a "tough" character, and I respect you. Let's keep our emotions civil. That's what this discussion forum is for??

I have presented some alternative scriptures to why I understand that there will be some elect at the first resurrection (even if they don't all share the same rewards or position with Christ) from Adam to Pentecost. I have shown some scriptural examples. It would help if you would first show why those scriptures I presented "don't cut it". I have tried to present why the scriptures shown to me don't prove beyond reasonable doubt what I believe could very well be, and that is some elect between Adam and Pentecost that will be at the first resurrection.

To be honest with you, I certainly don't object to the idea of only a few elect and only after Pentecost to receive the honor of being in the first resurrection. If God's word says so... then that is absolutely cool with me. But if someone were to pose the doctrine shared by Ray and even after studying the concept as Kat and you have mentioned (and I wouldn't be sharing the verses contrary if I didn't) I would not be able to defend myself as to Ray's position. It's not that cut and dry for me. I'm not a "man follower" and I question everything, as I believe everyone should.

Let me start out with baby steps so that you might discern a flaw and to see if I at least have a correct foundation.

When all of mankind is born, that person is given the breath of life to make him a living person. At the same time, God gives that person, spirit, to make him a living soul. That spirit God gives to all humans is from Him... God. That spirit has to be Holy because it is from God. Each person has a small portion of God's Holy Spirit. Albeit not much, but some.

Okay, now all people have a conscience to understand what is right and what is wrong. Everyone intuitively knows that there is God. No one can claim to have an excuse. We have no excuse because His spirit and His works declare it.

Now I also believe that there is only one spirit of God. God is spirit. Eph 4:4. I've stated before and I will say it again - I'm not a trinitarian, but you have to also realize, even between those that don't believe in the trinity, there are five or six different views.

Here is where it now gets sticky and I have tried to present scripture to support myself - then at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was "poured out" and many were "filled" with the Holy Spirit. In addition to the spirit that every one has from creation, some were filled to overflowing with God's spirit. This issue about the spirit is even more confusing because translations like the KJ took the liberty to capitalize spirit when ever they felt like they needed to, and a lot of times not correctly. This outpouring at Pentecost was for the gifts needed for the task at hand, and that was to carry on His church with the many believers, and sprinkled here and there some of the elect that were named before the foundation of the world. I understand only the elect will be in the first resurrection.

Now I am having a hard time understanding why for instance Abraham, Isaac and Joseph (not being Jews but Gentiles) were not of God's elect and therefore not at the first resurrection. And again, not necessarily reigning with Christ but nonetheless with a great reward.... kings, priests, lords, and judges etc. In OT times and forward to Pentecost, God worked with those individuals that He wanted for His purposes (including being elect) by using His spirit mostly amongst/ alongside and even sometimes indwelling that person to accomplish His purpose.

If it would be God's will for me to be an elect at the first resurrection, I don't feel that I could in any way preside over and teach, let's say, those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on June 01, 2012, 01:14:14 AM

Quote from: doug on June 01, 2012, 12:10:13 AM

If it would be God's will for me to be an elect at the first resurrection, I don't feel that I could in any way preside over and teach, let's say, those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

I know exactly what you're saying, Doug. Putting those saints way up on a pedestal. Is that what you're doing?

I don't know if you are, but they aren't deserving of that, and nobody should be doing that.

Should God will, God WILL equip you and all the other elect to teach those saints.

You don't have to worry that God would call you and then choose you to be an elect and then not equip you for the task. But that's precisely what we're doing when we think to ourselves, "I could never teach them." Well, of course not at this point in our walk with the Lord ... Duh!

But later, after having completely gone through judgment? Sure! Is anything too hard for God?

I mean, think about it, Doug, we're talking about people who believed in an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth and all that and hating their enemies and "tithing." Why couldn't God equip you for the job? You're basically halfway there.

Is anything too hard for God, Doug?

It is He Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith, not the patriarchs of old. They went through a LOT, but they don't belong on a pedestal.

I'm following JFK's advice and re-read Ray's materials, starting with the first thing.

God bless.

p.s. It's okay to ask someone a question. But it's an entirely whole other matter to expect them to dispel your doubts about the things you've read and expect them to lead you into all truth. That's not for Kat or JFK or anyone to do. That's God's job. That's what the Holy Spirit is for.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Doesn't matter if you believe that now or not, Doug. If God wants to teach you and make you an elect, it's going to happen. That's just the way it is.

Cheer up.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on June 01, 2012, 02:15:07 AM

Hi Doug,

When Ray had researched these things to the degree that he did and line up many Scriptures to prove it and I can see that what he says is the truth, I am not so vain as to think I need to put that in my own words, probably in a less concise way? So I just use Ray own words (copy and paste) that I have studied and proved to myself, when I can. I don't think that makes someone a man follower to appreciate and use the work he did.

Quote

When all of mankind is born, that person is given the breath of life to make him a living person. At the same time, God gives that person, spirit, to make him a living soul. That spirit God gives to all humans is from Him... God. That spirit has to be Holy because it is from God. Each person has a small portion of God's Holy Spirit. Albeit not much, but some.

Every living creature has the breath of life. This breath of life is a spark/spirit from God bringing a physical fleshly creature (all animals as well) to have a physical life.

Gen 7:15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath7307 of life.

H7307 ruach - breath, wind, spirit:

Gen 7:21 And all flesh ceased to breathe that moved on the earth, of birds and of tame-beasts and of wild-beasts, and of all the swarming things that swarm on the earth,—land all mankind.
v. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life of all that were on the dry ground died. (Rotherham)

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html --------

ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.

God be with you,
Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We can see that a man needs a second "spirit which is of God" to go with their own "spirit of man."

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
v. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

In Romans 8 Paul speaks of those that have the Spirit of God/Christ and those that do not. So this is a separate Spirit from our own spirit/breath of life and all living breathing creatures have as long as they are physically alive.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
v. 10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

God is not limited in how He uses His Spirit, He is able to do whatever He so desires.

Quote

Now I am having a hard time understanding why for instance Abraham, Isaac and Joseph (not being Jews but Gentiles) were not of God's elect and therefore not at the first resurrection.

Not even John the Baptist whom Christ said of him "those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater," not even he will be in the first resurrection.

Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

Now I would think that many of those great prophets and the great men and women of God in the OT could/would hold high positions of service to God on earth, in a physical sense. Just saying that because somebody is not in the first resurrection does not mean they could not still be given some kind of physical position durning Christ reign on the earth. Those born into the kingdom at the first resurrection will join Christ in the spiritual realm. But we do not know how the people will serve on the earth and maybe that would be a way for their preparation to enter the spiritual kingdom. Just a possibility to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on June 01, 2012, 12:13:31 PM

"........there will weeping there and gnashing of teeth when you see ABRAHAM, ISAAC, and JABOB, and ALL THE PROPHETS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from the east and west, north and south and take their places ( SEATS OF AUTHORITY ) at the feast ( " the great feast / supper of God .....Rev ) IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Indeed, there ARE ( NOW, present tense......the very day Jesus spoke these words ) those who ARE ( NOW, the very day Jesus spoke these words) last, who WILL BE ( future tense ) first. and the first ( Abraham, Isaac, Jabob and all the prophets) who WILL BE last ". Luke 13:28

Please compare this with the other accounts speaking of the same thing in Mathew and Mark and you will find a common denominator. In every case the subject of concern was position of authority. When we can understand that the "kingdom" of God is the very GOVERNMENT of God, then you will know why the concern was valid. And I might add, it is no mere trivial matter that Christ was born into the great Roman Empire, and was put to death by this Empire.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Foxx on June 01, 2012, 12:26:04 PM

Doug,

As far as who will be around at the resurrection of the dead, Martha said to Jesus, when he told her Lazarus would live again, she said to him

John 11:24 - I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

of course Jesus went on to raise him back to life. Whether or not you are an "elect" is unimportant. God determines these things. You will be resurrected on the last day and that should be comforting. He is the potter and we are the clay. So trying to determine your 'post resurrection destiny' is a fruitless effort. God knows your heart as well as the millions of others who have had thoughts and feelings just like you. He has a way to deal with such things in us. Abraham was not a better man than you, Jesus said that NO ONE is good, not even himself. Only The father is good. That's a powerful statement .

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on June 01, 2012, 12:52:18 PM

Hi again whyisthatso,

Here is an email for you to consider.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm --------------------------

he was speaking to the Jews only, okay. Now then, were the Jews the FIRST to be offered this salvation? Yes, of course they were -- "go NOT the way of the Samaritan" -- remember? But what is the context of these verses? Not all of the JEWS that call Jesus "Lord, Lord" will "enter" the narrow gate to the Kingdom, will they? No they won't. (Matt. 7:21). Even of those Jews who "seek to enter" will "NOT BE ABLE" (Luke 13:24). They are the FIRST TO BE CALLED, but they will not be the FIRST TO ENTER.

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye [Gk: 'all of you'] shall see Abraham [Abraham was not a Jew], and Isaac [Isaac was not a Jew], and Jacob [Jacob was not a Jew] and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [JEWS] yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east [Jews? No, GENTILES], and from the west [Gentiles], and from the north [etc.], and from the south, and shall sit down IN THE KINGDOM of God" (Luke 13:28-29).

The Jews should have been FIRST, but the Patriarchs and the Gentiles will enter before them. The Jews will NOT ENTER FIRST!

But will they EVER enter? Do the Scriptures state that "they will NEVER, EVER, enter?" Is there such a Scripture in all the Bible, Brian? NO, there is not. There are hundreds and hundreds of Scriptures [you gave me but two] that state that the evil, wicked, sinner, unregenerate, unrepentant, etc., etc., etc., WILL NOT be saved in this lifetime. But is there ONE verse of Scripture that states they will "never EVER be saved?" No, Brian there is not. There is a plan of God, a schedule, a time table, and "order" to who God saves and when.

Let's read I Cor. 15:22-24 in a more accurate translation than the KJV:

"For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall ALL [it's the SAME 'all'] be vivified. Yet each in his own CLASS [or order]: [1] the Firstfruit, Christ; [2] thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; [3] thereafter the consummation [those at the end, the LAST]..."

Paul explains this perfectly and simply: In Romans 11 Paul tells us that the natural branches [the JEWS] have been broken off and the wild branches of the Gentiles grafted in. But is this FOREVER? NO. The natural branches can also be grafted back into the tree once again, and Paul says that they WILL BE (Rom. 11:24). Now what is the "context" of all this Jew/Gentile business?

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be IGNORANT [we don't want to be 'ignorant' of this context, context, context, Brian] of this mystery [a mystery that ALL OF CHRISTENDOM does not yet comprehend], lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [no danger of that ever happening, do you think?] that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL [if you don't know the meaning of the word 'until,' Brian, look it up] ... UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25).

Blindness to Israel was only to be UNTIL, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Has the "fullness of the Gentiles" as yet come in? No. Well what about all of these millions and millions of "Jesus" rejecting Jews down through the centuries. Can they "reject" Jesus as virtually all of Judaism has done and still be saved IN THIS LIFE TIME? NO. Well then, just when WILL they be grafted "back into the vine" if not in THIS life time? Why in the next, of course. All of these DEAD Jews will be resurrected back to life in order to BE grafted back in, but they will have some mighty DEEP REPENTING TO DO FIRST! (See Phil. 2:9-11 Vs. I Cor. 12:3).

God used Israel for a time and then cast them away, but, as Paul asks:

"Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid, but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the GENTILES, for to provoke them [the Jews, Israel] to jealousy... For if the casting away of them [Israel -- Israel NOT entering the narrow gate, NOT entering the kingdom when it was offered] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? For if the firstfuit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES... AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED... " (Rom. 11: 11, 15, & 26).

But you see, they are NOT SAVED FIRST, are they? No, they are saved LAST!

If the Jews are cast out of the kingdom and not able to enter the strait gate, when will they be able? When they are grafted BACK INTO THE VINE, in the next life, in the resurrection, in the judgment. For in JUDGMENT, they WILL learn righteousness:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)

And finally, back to your "context, context, context" verses. Clearly we have seen that there are MANY who will not be saved in this life. In fact, MOST OF THE JEWS will now be saved in they life. They will not enter through the strait gate and they will not enter the kingdom. They will NOT be the first to be saved, but will they be saved at ALL? Yes, of course they will, we just read it -- ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!

When? Why AFTER the Gentiles come in -- those who come from the east and west and north and south (Luke 13:28). These Gentiles will all come in FIRST, that's what Paul taught us if we are not "ignorant" of God's "mystery." So if the the Jews are NOT FIRST, what are they according to the "context, context, context" of YOUR PROOF Sciprtures to me? Let's read it, it's the NEXT VERSE IN CONTEXT -- Luke 13:30:

"And, behold, there are LAST [the last-called Gentiles] which shall be FIRST [first IN the kingdom, first SAVED], and there are FIRST [the first-called Jews] which SHALL BE LAST."

Oh, yes, they "SHALL BE" in God's family. They "SHALL BE" saved, but they will be saved, LAST!

One final thought just to expand you thinking out of the theological hole of "context," let me show you where God likens His chosen people Israel to the God-jeweled city of Jerusalem, and where He likens the world of the Gentiles to the most wretched city of the Gentiles, SODOM. What is the fate of the evil city state of Sodom and the evil city state of Jerusalem? Right now, God is calling a people from among the Gentiles, but in the resurrection we saw that Israel will be brought back to life and grafted back into the Vine of Life once more. But what of the rest of the Gentiles that are not chosen now and the rest of Israel who was not chosen for the Kingdom?

Ezekieal 16 tells us. Read the "context" for sure, Brian, but then see the conclusions OF THE CONTEXT! God says that Jerusalem [Israel] sinned FAR WORSE than even SODOM (Ezek. 16:48). Yet we see that God will, nonetheless, YET SAVE ALL ISRAEL. When? And if Sodom is also to be saved in future judgment, when will they also be saved? Read it in (Ezek. 16:55) which tells us WHEN this will happen.

Seriously, Brian, if you think you can FIGHT the Scriptures and TWIST the Scriptures I have presented above, and suggest that I have in the LEAST taken them out of your 'holy context,' then you are FIGHTING GOD, and not me or my writings.

May God be with you, and open you eyes to these marvelous pearls of God's Word which have been trampled under the feet of swine for centuries.

Ray

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Foxx on June 01, 2012, 01:12:30 PM

Kat, in regards to the verse in Matthew

11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I don't think Matthew 11:11 is stating that John will not be in the first resurrection. Jesus is saying that as great as John is (as a mortal imperfect man) the least in the Kingdom of heaven will be even greater. Jesus is making a comparison statement here. A comparison of how even though John was great as a carnal minded human the spiritual greatness of those in the kingdom of heaven is greater than all he did .

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: eggi on June 01, 2012, 01:46:44 PM

Hi all,

Just a quick note (more to myself than anyone else) about something I thought about this subject which has been discussed in this thread (one of them at least). Hope I am on the right thread, if not forgive me (I was thinking about this while vacuum cleaning, and just made a quick pitstop here).

What I think is the key to answering some of the questions about what it means to have the Spirit of God could be "understanding and knowledge". The Spirit of God gives us understanding and knowledge about God. This is definitely something we DON'T possess when we are born, or children for that matter. Jesus had this knowledge, He KNEW God. John might have known certain things about the Messiah that was to come, he was able to "prepare the way" for the Lord.

To KNOW Jesus Christ is life aeonian John 17:3:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The beginning of Titus:

Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,...

1 John 2:20:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I don't have time to go into more detail about what I'm thinking about here. These are just my thoughts on this, now I must get back to my house chores.

God bless you,
Eirik

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on June 01, 2012, 01:50:19 PM

Hi Foxx,

I think what Jesus is saying and is also backed up by all the Scriptures that are posted here, is that that John was a very godly man, Jesus even states "among those born of women there has not risen one greater." But even as John was such, the very least to enter the kingdom (first resurrection) will be greater than any human being alive, because Jesus did say that there was none greater human born than John.

Here also is an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2385.0 -----------------

John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).

God be with you,
Ray

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Rene on June 01, 2012, 02:58:27 PM

Quote from: doug on May 31, 2012, 05:40:46 PM

We read in Heb 11:39-40, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Was this promise these faithful saints didn't receive in this verse that of receiving the Holy Spirit or that of obtaining the first resurrection after death?

doug,

Moses was one of the "faithful" ones mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, and guess what? God did not even allow Moses into the "Promise Land" even though Moses was a great "deliverer" of God's people. Just think about that. If Moses was not even allowed in the "physical" Promised Land, why would it be so hard to believe that he may not be in the 1st resurrection, which is to me a "spiritual" Promised Land? Just something to think about.

René

Heb. 11:24-29 - "By faith Moses, becoming great, disowns the term "son of Pharaoh's daughter, referring rather to be maltreated with the people of God than to have a temporary enjoyment of sin, deeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked away to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the fury of the king, for he is staunch as seeing the Invisible. By faith he has the passover made and the pouring of blood against the door jambs, lest the exterminator of the first-born may come into contact with them. By faith they crossed the Red Sea as through dry land, attempting which, the Egyptians were swallowed up.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 01, 2012, 03:13:19 PM

Why do some seem to see this as a bad thing that the Patriarchs and John are not first? (Actually, I think I know, but this thread is getting mighty long and cumbersome and far away from its beginning). They were good for "US" in that what they lived was for our admonition. Why is it bad that "we" should be able to be good for them? Isn't that the entire point of Judgement? Hebrews 11 is GOOD NEWS for EVERYBODY who believes. That's the way I read it, and I don't desire to "unread" it some other way.

If I'm missing the point of the discussion, sorry about that.

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Gina on June 01, 2012, 03:39:55 PM

Maybe this will help?

from Twelve God-Given Truths:

How many things written in the prophets concerning the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus did the disciples understand? "NONE."

At Jesus’ last meeting after His resurrection with His apostles we read:

"And He said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you while I was yet with you [words which they never understood] that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me [in other words, the entire Hebrew Scriptures]. Then [When? ‘THEN.’ Not during their three and one half years of learning at His feet? NO, ‘then’] opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures [ALL of the Scriptures]" (Luke 24:44-45).
Why did Jesus reveal His message, His gospel, His kingdom, His word to so very few people? Christ’s answer is much harder for most to believe than the parables themselves:

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, WHY speak You unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven [not at that precise time, but eventually, after His resurrection] but to them it is not given [not then OR later]. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has [another parable answers the reason for parables]. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand [here Jesus gives us a parable within a riddle].

"And in them [and in all future generations down through the centuries, save a very small elect few] is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart [the people’s heart in Isaiah’s day, Christ’s day, through the generations, and in our day] is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should HEAL them [SAVE them]."But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them" (Matt. 13:10-17).

I doubt that many of my readers are comprehending the marvelous truths contained in the above passages. The prophets THEMSELVES (even Isaiah himself), desired to see these things, but did NOT see them. All of the Apostles and New Testament writers understood that the patriarchs of old including the prophets themselves, did not understand their own prophesies, therefore they were not converted, and they are not saved. These things are for those who come after Christ, not before:

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto YOU [not unto them!]: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow [not come BEFORE, in their day and time].

"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US they did minister [‘for OUR admonition upon whom the ends of the ages are come, I Cor. 10:11] the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto YOU at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:10-13).Therefore I repeat once more:

"And these all [all the saints and all the prophets, Ver. 32], having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing FOR US, that they without US should NOT be made perfect [be saved]" (Heb. 11:39-40).
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm)

(Emphasis mine)

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Marky Mark on June 01, 2012, 03:54:19 PM

Quote

I don't think Matthew 11:11 is stating that John will not be in the first resurrection. Jesus is saying that as great as John is (as a mortal imperfect man) the least in the Kingdom of heaven will be even greater. Jesus is making a comparison statement here. A comparison of how even though John was great as a carnal minded human the spiritual greatness of those in the kingdom of heaven is greater than all he did .

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women [the church of the letter/law..babylon..spiritually speaking] there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. [because the elect will have been Spiritually converted unto His Truth,John was not]

Why are the least greater than John?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith [of Jesus Christ] came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

The Scriptures do not lie...

Peace...Mark

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on June 01, 2012, 09:19:45 PM

Kat, I'm sorry but I cannot believe that the spirit that is in man is the same as the animal. I know that we share the same "breath" of life and perish the same, but the spirit that Paul speaks of is another spirit. There would be no point in telling us that we have a breath in us. The words may have virtually the same meaning but they do not mean the same thing. The spirit that is in us is the one that God takes back when we die. And whatever it is , it is all that we are. Our spirit is what and who we really are.

"As a man thinks in his heart, so is he"

The words "spirit", "mind" "heart" and "thought" are interchangable, because they are the same essence. This is the part of our being that is not physical. You cant see me, and I cant see you. Oh, yes, we can make outside observations, but we can't really see each other. And no two people, no matter how intimately close they are can ever "know" one another in this flesh.
This spirit in us is what connects us to God. It is how He knows all there is to know about us. It is what is with us always, and never leaves us. We talk to ourselves constantly, never ceasing night and day. Only at night do we take a break, so we watch picture shows instead. Even when some of this spirit spills out of our mouths, we continue to think ( right or wrong ).

" Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks "

Here is where our problem lies. We do not think right. We cannot do right, until we can think right. To think right is "righteousnss". WHY was Abel "righteous" ?, I mean, really , what did he do that we know of. He made a better sacrifice to God. WHY, because he thought right, He know what God wanted. And God caused him to think right. He had Gods Spirit. This is where the "church" began. The Spirit of God is not limited in any way. The day of Penticost was a "show" more than anything else, to fullfill prophecy, to make a statement, to mark a milestone, to place a marker on the path of the journey of the Great Plan. We cannot know Gods will, until we know how God thinks..... until we think as He does.

( and not to get off subject but the story of Cain and Abel is for our learning . It is the first picture of Gods "church" and the false system that persecutes us )

This is what God is doing with us. He is changing our minds. This is what " repentance" is......a changing of the mind. This is a process . He gives us repentance, its not something we do.

"Be not conformed to this word ( this worlds way of thinking), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind "

All throughout the scriptures , this is the central message. God gave us (man) a carnal mind. A mind, a heart, a spirit, that cannot please God, it is hostile towards Him. The purpose for this is another subject, but it is all for our good and His Glory. The most intimate part of our being is our thoughts. Did you ever try telling someone HOW to think ? ALL strife, conflict and war , the history of the "world" , is the result of this problem.

"....the way of peace they have not know "

The spirit that is in man, is the part of us that is not physical. It is what connects us to God so that He can change us from the inside out. Its an inside job. It is our "heart", our "mind", our thoughts.......our "spirit"
When a person has unexplainable skill or insight, we say they are "inspired" ( INtered spirit ), when a person dies, we say they "expired" ( EXITed spirit ). Our spirit is who and what we really are. It is what survives after death, and only because God keeps it, takes it back. It is all we will take with us to our grave, because it is all that we are.

Just some food for thought David

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: doug on June 01, 2012, 09:39:56 PM

Ahhhhh.... The deeper and more painful root of an infected molar.... the harder it is to extract! Praise the Lord the tooth has been extracted now!!

This Old Testament Saints, Elect and the 1st resurrection issue was the last (and by far the most difficult for me) hurdle that I had to yet jump over.

I read and re-read this thread and concepts started coming together and like JFK said - most of my comments were non-sensible (but at the time they seemed to be for me). Where I started to gain some understanding was through the pulling of the many scriptures together so that they are in one place (this thread) for comparison. That's undoubtedly the best way for me to comprehend. thanks guys... you went all out for me!

I hope that beside me, all who contributed did gain at least some new understanding to all of the scriptures, concepts and ideas posted. God's word doesn't return void!

Like Dave in Tn said, this thread is getting too long and cumbersome... so I will rest my fingers for awhile.

A heart felt thanks to all who have contributed to my "progressive revelation"... I have really learned from everybody's input.

Time for partyin' --- I'll get out the grill and throw on some shish kabobs....
If I were with you all now I would give you a great big hug!

with love to all, doug

p.s. We are so blessed... because of all christiandom "out there", do not know these truths!!

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Kat on June 01, 2012, 10:40:01 PM

Okay whyisthatso, I can see that you have your own way of thinking about these things and that's fine. I see no point in continuing this discussion, that is why we have the rules, I will put here what I am speaking of in particular.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

We do not want confusion here that is the reason for the rules. Maybe you should re-study the articles that are taught on the BT page to see if you do share our beliefs, as you seem to have a difference of opinion on these things we have been discussing. We are not trying to convince anyone to believe as we do, but why would someone want to fellowship with a group that they do not agree with?

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together unless they are agreed?

Eph 4:1-3 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: whyisthatso on June 01, 2012, 11:49:47 PM

Thank you Kat for your time, patience and love. I did not come here to disrupt this forum in any way. I was sent here for a purpose, to direct your thinking. You are on the right road, but have a ways to go. And thank you for underlining " people of like mind ", to enforce my words. My work is done here.

in peace, David

Title: Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 02, 2012, 01:06:06 AM

Wasco55, I hope your question was sufficiently answered. :D

Doug, I'm glad the bulb turned on.

If there are any unanswered questions, please start a new thread.

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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: wasco55 on May 28, 2012, 03:27:20 AM