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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Evan600 on April 26, 2007, 09:09:29 PM
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This is a question that I have been pondering for a minute now. The question that I have, comes from Rev. 20.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The question being; what are the Elect ruling over for a 1000 years? If the rest of the dead do not live until AFTER the 1000 years, what, or who are they ruling?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
We can see also that at the end of the 1000 years, Satan is released. This is AFTER the thousand years. What is going on during this 1000 years?
I always thought that the 1000 year reign was judgment day. For a day is like a thousand years, etc. Now, I have to wonder.
If the rest of the dead(everyone that is not God's very Elect) are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years, what is the 1000 years?
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Continuing on in the same chapter, we see that after the dead were raised, this is the Great White Throne. This is where the dead are judged. Is this speaking spiritually of something else that is considered "dead?" If they are raised at the time of this judgment, they wouldn't be "dead," would they?
I'll be honest here. I am quite thrown off by this whole resurrection/judgment thing. Not to mention that Paul only talks about one resurrection that I can think of.
Anyone have a link, or an exposition on this somewhere? Maybe from Ray? If not, I would appreciate some conversation on understanding this.
In Christ,
Jason
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Hi Jason,
It seems there is some evidence that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" may be spurious.
These words are missing in the earliest Greek manuscripts—Codex Sinaitic and Codex Alexandrine. (The Codex Vatican #1209 does not contain the Book of Revelation.) These words are also missing in the earliest Syriac and Aramaic manuscripts.
If these words are not inspired by God then it changes how we view the first and second resurrections. They could potentially happen at the same time, or on the same day. This would seem to make more sense, since then the Elect, along with Christ, would be judging the "nations" (the rest of humanity) and bringing them to complete healing and salvation. I tend to think the White Throne Judgment, The Lake of Fire and the Thousand Years could all be referring to the same thing???
I seem to be the queen of sending you to other links (lol) but here is yet another thread that discusses a similar theme which I also followed with great interest:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2749.msg20353.html#msg20353
May God reveal his blessed truths to us all regarding these matters, if it be His will.
Peace,
Diana
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Diana,
I thought that's what I read on another page that you replied on.
Can you tell me where you got that information about those verses not being in the original?
thanks,
Jason
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Hey Jason,
At this site they list all the texts that are not found in early manuscripts and Rev 20:5 is listed among them:
http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm
I've tried to research this and there's lots of sites and info out there; it can get confusing and overwhelming as to what's been changed or added from the original manuscripts. Perhaps it is all part of God's plan to blind the majority. But it does seem, in light of the truths learned here at bibletruths, that this particular text could very well be spurious. Time will tell.
God bless in your studies,
Peace,
Diana
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Hey Jason,
At this site they list all the texts that are not found in early manuscripts and Rev 20:5 is listed among them:
http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm
I've tried to research this and there's lots of sites and info out there; it can get confusing and overwhelming as to what's been changed or added from the original manuscripts. Perhaps it is all part of God's plan to blind the majority. But it does seem, in light of the truths learned here at bibletruths, that this particular text could very well be spurious. Time will tell.
God bless in your studies,
Peace,
Diana
Thanks Diana!
I will look into this. I printed it out, and was looking it over. I think that I've heard of this before. I know for sure that the King James manuscripts are different than the NASB. I was always told that the NASB had the "more accurate" earlier manuscripts. What is going on???? ???
Can someone say faith test???? Indeed I could see how something like this would cause growth in an individual!
In Christ,
Jason
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I would like to post what I see so far about these manuscripts.
Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*
* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript. These not thus marked are omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts. The Epistles to Timothy, the latter part of Hebrews, and all of Revelation, are missing from the Vatican Manuscript, No. 1209, having been lost during the fifteen or more centuries since it was written. The Sinaitic Manuscript is perfect and complete and is the oldest known copy of the Scriptures, having been written (it is believed) in the year 331 A.D.
According to Professor C. Tischendorf, the earliest manuscript is from the year 331 A.D. It is believed anyway. I looked at my NASB bible, and my King James, and I see that the first portion of verse 5 is still there. Which doesn't necessarily mean that someone didn't add that part of the verse. If that part of the verse was not there, it would read something like the following:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I feel deja-vu as I write this. Strange.
Anyway, I must look into this deeper. Does anyone have any other good links, or information on where I could find out more about original Greek manuscripts?
Another thing that comes to mind as I read this verse is this:
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (nasb)
In this version, the NASB, it's wording is different than the King James also. These are different manuscripts from each other. It says that "...the dead did not come to life until..."
Could it be that this is talking about aionian life? The aionian life that is for God's elect before the rest of the world? In other words "...the dead did not come to aionian life until after the thousand years were completed."
Just some thoughts. But it still says in the remainder of the verse; "This is the first resurrection." Is it not referring to "The rest of the dead..."? If not, why is it directly after those words?
God bless,
Jason
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Jason,
The Vatican has so many hidden original manuscripts...I wonder what all they have hidden, even holding onto today! ??? :-X :-X :-X 8) I would love to know...
I know that the Brittish Museum holds all these diff codexes: (Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, the Alexandrinus and the Pliny the Younger and Pliny the Older...) of course they would never let you touch them either.
interesting thread!
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Hi Jason,
One thing you need to consider is that a scripture can not stand alone, where is the second witness to Rev. 20:5.
The only time the first resurrection is mentioned in here in Rev 20:5 and 6.
Other scripture that mention the thousand years speak of it more as being symbolic, as being any duration of time, from one day to a thousand years.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
But we do know what the first resurrection is, as it says in Rev. 20:4, judgment;
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.
The saints will judge with Christ at His return and who will He judge, the living and the dead. He can not judge the dead if they are waiting until after the thousand years to be raised.
2Ti 4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,
1Peter 4:5 But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
I am trying to look at what the scripture as a whole say. This Rev. 20:5 all on its on does not by itself sway me and it being spurious make it more suspect :-\
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Diana
Thank you for that site!
As Ray teaches, everything that we have learnt from Mystery Babylon is not the truth.
I believe and as I have accepted and been taught here in Bible Truths,the Judgment is on the house of God now means NOW upon those called and chosen. Those who are called and not chosen will be raised to judgement in the second Resurrection at the White Throne.
God does not change and this process of changing us to His image has been on going since the garden of Eden, and continued once Christ came and it will continue until He returns.
After Christ returns then the elect and Christ will correct, train and judge those that remain in the second Resurrection. Once all is put under the feet of Christ to adore and recognise HIM as Lord of all and King above all, then Christ will submit to God all and HIMSELF and then after that God will be All in all.
The time for HIS return is nearer each day and I believe the season for HIS coming to the WORLD is just up ahead considering the height of wickedness and the unprecedented degree of decay in the ecco systems and moral fibre of humanity that we witness in the world today.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I believe and as I have accepted and been taught here in Bible Truths,the Judgment is on the house of God now means NOW upon those called and chosen. Those who are called and not chosen will be raised to judgement in the second Resurrection at the White Throne.
God does not change and this process of changing us to His image has been on going since the garden of Eden, and continued once Christ came and it will continue until He returns.
After Christ returns then the elect and Christ will correct, train and judge those that remain in the second Resurrection. Once all is put under the feet of Christ to adore and recognise HIM as Lord of all and King above all, then Christ will submit to God all and HIMSELF and then after that God will be All in all.
Arcturus :)
This post brings up a question i have.
We know in this verse
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
this seems sequential to me, die and then judgment.
Dying comes before judgment. God doesn't change; and judgment is now on house of God. So the elect must of died already if we are going through judgment now (as judgment is after death). So this death seems to me must not be a physical death, if we are already going through judgment. And this judgment must not be producing death, as judgment is after death. So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again.
elect: die---->judgment now (in a state of death)-------->resurrected to life.
Now, it seems to me the non elect, die first, are resurrected to life next (rather than judged first), and then go through judgment. So judgment, is after resurrected life.
non elect: die-------->resurrected to life------->judged-------->???die again second death??-------->???resurrected again???
Am i way off on this?? seems God does change (at least in his order) in how he deals with elect versus non elect.
any ideas??
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Hi Jason,
One thing you need to consider is that a scripture can not stand alone, where is the second witness to Rev. 20:5.
The only time the first resurrection is mentioned in here in Rev 20:5 and 6.
Other scripture that mention the thousand years speak of it more as being symbolic, as being any duration of time, from one day to a thousand years.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
But we do know what the first resurrection is, as it says in Rev. 20:4, judgment;
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.
The saints will judge with Christ at His return and who will He judge, the living and the dead. He can not judge the dead if they are waiting until after the thousand years to be raised.
2Ti 4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,
1Peter 4:5 But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
I am trying to look at what the scripture as a whole say. This Rev. 20:5 all on its on does not by itself sway me and it being spurious make it more suspect :-\
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
You're right, the Scripture must be looked at as a whole, and I don't see a second witness for the first part of Revelation 5. Another friend that I spoke with had mentioned to me that it was written by a Scribe in the margin of the text, and was later included as an error. It would make perfect sense.
I love it when I'm 'caused' to study more!
Love,
Jason
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Hi rocky,
Well you are right about the elect being judged now.
So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again.
And you are right all must die once, but this is a spiritual death. This is what is meant in the scripture you referred to.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The elect are dying to the carnal flesh, spiritually now and are being judged now.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
All will die physically and be in the grave until the resurrection. Then at the resurrection all the dead will be raised, some to life spiritually and brought into the kingdom. The rest will be brought back to physical life and must go through judgment and they too must die to the carnal flesh spiritually and then they will be given spiritual life and be brought into the kingdom.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
v. 29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
So the 'death' all of humanity must go through is a spiritual death, because there will actually be those who do not die physically.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
v. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Here Paul is speaking to the believers who will be raised incorruptible at Christ appearing, they do not actually die a physical death. And there will be a lot still living on earth at His return, that are not brought into the kingdom, but they still must go through judgment. But I do not believe there will be physical death any more, because when Christ returns there will be no more death.
Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
The rest of the dead are not raised incorruptible, they are not found in the book of life, they are raised physical to be judged. They too must live a life of overcoming self in the lake of fire and learn the truth, to be given spiritual life and be brought into the kingdom.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
v. 12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
v. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
v. 14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
v. 15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Hope this helps :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi rocky,
... The rest will be brought back to physical life and must go through judgment and they too must die to the carnal flesh spiritually and then they will be given spiritual life and be brought into the kingdom.
Hope this helps :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
thanks Kat, good stuff. But i do wonder,
do you have any scripture that substantiates a return to physical life again, after physical death??
also do you see these physically resurrected people, after spiritually being given life as having unending life in physical bodies??
thanks.
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I just read an e mail to Ray from a Scott asking about ANZac day in Australia. Ray's reply was that at judgement day all the elect chosen will be resurrected to judge. All the other people will be resurrected to go thru judgement. Which suggests "all the other people" have died.
So, at some point, is there no more births and then everyone has to die off till the last person left dies THEN the resurrection of the dead?
Then, the chosen will judge all of humanity for a "time" (dunno if its 1,000 or not) as we are the LOF.
Next, I am confused on the Satan "loosed" thing. Where it fits in my scenario. Also confusing to me is "eonian chastisement" versus a split second conversion. When every nation & tongue gives Him all the praise and glory when they see the Lamb, why is there a need for punishment at all. Since one cannot say He is Lord w/o the Spirit, all the people must have received the Spirit? Yes/No??
Summed up. Here is what I want. ::) All are dead and know not anything. At the VERY end of the eons, all are resurrected, (everyone has to be dead first to be resurrected,) we all see the Lamb, repent, and we join God in "all in all". There is no long term punishment for anyone and we all live happy ever after!
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Hello Kat
That is the most insightful post I have seen you write!
Rocky to answer your question, the Scriptures say Matt 5 : 5 Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit THE EARTH.
The work of the earthy phase of the Kingdom of God is given to such as these.
Luke 13 : 28, 29 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth, when you SEE Abraham and Isaac and Jacob (WHO?...RESURRECTED Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....WHEN? When there will be weepiing and grinding of teeth...) and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth, banished, driven away 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and SIT DOWN , feast at table in the kingdom of God....
The Kingdom of God arrives with the KING. The King is the Sovereign of HIS Kingdom and the King is Christ who is coming again!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Rocky,
Let me bring this email of Ray's forward, he got me to thinking about this.
I want to give credit where credit is due :)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1883.0.html --------
Hi Ray, reading part 1V of lake of fire series. Im strugglin to follow your
> thought on the parable of the prodigal son. Especially where u are talking about
> death as spiritual death and then toward the end of the article you make the
> statement "it is after death that most of humanity will be saved" is this after
> physical death?Because, as far as i see all of humanity will be saved after
> 'spiritual death' I agree that all die in Adam.... Sorry Ray, there is just so
> much to process. HELP!
>
> Wesley
Dear Wesley:
Man is mortal, so all manknd will and must die eventually. Even those "who are alive and remain" unto the coming of the Lord will be changed. In that sense, their old flesh body dies.
But we must also spiritually die to ourselves WHILE WE ARE STILL ALIVE. This only happens to those who are "baptized in Christ," not baptized into water. Those who are "crucified with Christ." Those who are "begotten anew from above." Those who are made "a new creature," in the "Image of God's Son," etc. In other words only God's chosen elect few will experience these things in this life and be resurrection to immortality with a spiritual body in the first resurrection.
The rest of humanity which has died once PHYSICALLY, will be resurrected in the second resurrection in which they too will have to spiritually die to their old carnal man and be made righteous (Isa. 26:9).
God be with you,
Ray
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In 1Cor 15 Paul is talking to the brethren, this is important because what he is saying to them is only for the elect. But you can also understand what will be for the rest by what is said.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
v. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?
v. 36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
v. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).
Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting (eonian) from the (Holy) Spirit.
So Spiritual 'life' only come from the Holy Spirit indwelling, after we die spiritually to the flesh. And who Paul is speaking to here, is the believers who have the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
v. 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
v. 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
v. 45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.
John 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
So we can see what is given to those who are 'in Christ' at the resurrection, spiritual 'life' in the kingdom. That is the ultimate goal, to enter the kingdom, and to do so you must be spirit.
All must go through this process, there is no scripture that states otherwise.
What is stated is that a corrupt person, will be raised to condemnation and cannot enter the kingdom. So if one can not enter the kingdom because they are corrupt, why would they be rasied spirit? I do not believe they will be.
1Co 15:46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Those raised before they have received life from the Holy Spirit, they are not yet born of Spirit. So I believe they will be raised into a physical body.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
v. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.
v. 8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Though there is not a scripture that I know of, that states in exact words that the rest of the dead will be raised to physical life. But all the scripture about being raised to spirit is referring to the brethren.
So it seems to have been interjected by the church that all would be raised spiritual beings, not the scripture.
This is just the way I have come to understand it :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Gena,
We are going through judgment right now and we have not died. So those that are living at Christ's appearing could be cast into judgment alive, don't you think.
It does state when Christ returns there will be no more death.
Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
If the judgment on those that are not in the first resurrection in worse than those being judged now, it will not be a quick and easy thing.
Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
v. 14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
v. 15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
v. 16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Mat 13:49 So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just,
v. 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Rom 2:5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
v. 6 who will render to each according to his works;
Mat 12:36 But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
v. 37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
v. 27 And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.
Psa 9:7 But, Yahweh, unto times age-abiding, will sit, Ready for judgment, is His throne;
v. 8 And, He, will judge the world in righteousness, He will minister judgment to peoples, in uprightness.
This age-abiding judgment does not sould like a brief period.
And also the 'day' of the Lord, a day is symbolic and means a period of time, or as long as it takes.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Hope this will help :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat, i'll keep studying. Something doesnt' "click" with me re: the idea of physically dying, then being resurrected physical again in order to be judged. With this idea, basically those individuals will be immortal in physical bodies, as there is no third resurrection that i'm aware of.
I'll keep studying and praying on this.
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Kat, thanks for this reply, but I have some questions for you.
All will die physically and be in the grave until the resurrection. Then at the resurrection all the dead will be raised, some to life spiritually and brought into the kingdom. The rest will be brought back to physical life and must go through judgment and they too must die to the carnal flesh spiritually and then they will be given spiritual life and be brought into the kingdom.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
v. 29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?" I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.
So the 'death' all of humanity must go through is a spiritual death, because there will actually be those who do not die physically.
The rest of the dead are not raised incorruptible, they are not found in the book of life, they are raised physical to be judged. They too must live a life of overcoming self in the lake of fire and learn the truth, to be given spiritual life and be brought into the kingdom.
Again, this brings up the same question. Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?
Just searching for answers.
In Christ,
Jason
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Hi Jason,
Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?" I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.
John 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom. That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'
John 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3 And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.
To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether.
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep.
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.
Again, this brings up the same question. Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted. They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Jason,
Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?" I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.
John 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom. That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'
John 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3 And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.
To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether.
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep.
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.
Again, this brings up the same question. Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted. They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
thanks again Kat, that was very helpful.
So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death? do they physically die again? do they get ever get a spritual body? They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
What i still struggle with is the physical death part. Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.
Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment. I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.
but it is interesting the verse that talks about this does say "tomb".
Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
a lot to think about.
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Hi Rocky
Not that Kat needs any help to answer but here is my view regarding your questions for what it is worth. My comments are in blue.
thanks again Kat, that was very helpful.
So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death? do they physically die again? do they get ever get a spritual body? They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.
In the resurrection of condemnation AFTER the second death....they are SAVED, REDEEMED, PURIFIED, CORRECTED AND THE CROOKED IS MADE STRAIGHT. Do they physically die again AFTER THE SECOND DEATH? No. Do they ever get a spirityual body? Yes. As the Scriptures promise.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
What i still struggle with is the physical death part. Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.
What you say here is correct. We are alive in the flesh yet many are dead in their tresspasses and have not yet died with Christ to sin. There are some who have been babtised into the death of Christ who are dead to sin yet still are in the flesh and these are hearing HIS voice and following HIS steps.
So what is the problem? I do not see the struggle. You are correct.
Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment. I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.
Who says they have to physically die first? Do you mean they have to physically die first or die to the flesh? Lets take the first possibility. They have to physically die first is not scriptural because Christ will return when there are those who have not yet died physically or to the flesh. If you mean that they have to die to the flesh first then they will discern the voice and see the Spirit of Christ, then yes these are the Elect and chosen who have already passed judgement in their life times. As for the others, theirs is the judgment to the resurrection of the wicked and to meet their sentence.
but it is interesting the verse that talks about this does say "tomb".
Anything short of the life of Christ is a condition of partial death.All have fallen short of the Glory and non are saved or born again. The most anyone has is the deposit and promise of reward which requires the faith from God that is HIS gift to those HE chooses.
The physically and spiritually dead will not live until Christ returns. Only HE brings with HIM our full redemption. Only HE is the Resurrection and THE LIFE. For me, those dead that will not live again, is for those who will suffer the second death and then be saved. Not all will suffer the second death but many will as there are only few who are chosen.
Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
a lot to think about.
There ceratinly is a lot to ponder and seek understanding about. Understanding comes only from the Spirit and the Spirit knows everything. That is a lot! ;D
Thank you for letting me voice my perspective. Hope it adds and helps.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Jason,
Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?" I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.
John 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom. That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'
John 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3 And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.
To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether.
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep.
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.
I agree with everything here thus far.
Again, this brings up the same question. Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted. They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
It is the above that I don't understand. You said:
"They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually."
I agree that the second death is die spiritually. That is not my question. My question arises when you mentioned earlier that those that go to the lake are raised in physical bodies. In order for it to make sense with the Scripture, there must be more than just one verse explaining that those that go to the lake are raised in physical bodies.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And a couple verses above this also:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
I realize that the carnal mind is going to be 'burned' out of those that go to the lake. If the resurrection of the dead has people that are raised incorruptible, then clearly they are not raised corruptible. If that were the case, Paul would not have said that the resurrection(any resurrection, just the resurrection of the dead, any dead) consists of being raised incorruptible.
Am I missing something else here? I just don't see any physical bodies being raised up anywhere. Perhaps spiritual bodies that are raised with some kind of spiritual flesh like Jesus, and spiritual bone, but not physical as we see now. That might even be a stretch, but that is the closest answer that I have right now.
God bless,
Jason
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There are precedents to the fact that Jesus can raise one from the grave or tomb to physically continue life.
Matt 9 : 25 But when the crowd had been ordered to go outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.
Matt 27 : 53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Luke 7 : 14 And He went forward and touched the funeral bier, and the palbearers stood still. And He said, Young man I say to you, arise. And the man who was dead sat up.
Luke 11 : 43....He (Jesus) shouted with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 And out walked the man who had been dead.
Heb 11 : 35 Some women received again their dead by a resurrection...
These events in Scripture are within the scope and operation of Christ and for me they foreshadow the Resurrection to life in the Spirit of Christ, or to judgment in the flesh that is appointed to die the second death.
Not all will be raised incorruptible. Were those who were raised in the times of Christ, raised incorruptible. I don't think so. Only Christ Jesus has was and is incorruptible. Some will share in HIS inheritance appointed to HIM by the Father. Everyone will be saved but not all will be raised incorruptible to share in the reward that Christ brings to the Elect.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi rocky,
Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.
This is true, we are all dead spiritually, tho alive physiaclly, until our eyes are opened. The whole world is dead, only when Christ comes in to you and your eyes are opened, then you have life.
As the parable of the sower, only a few seed fell on good ground, that is the few that are chosen now.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
v. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive; (Isa 6:9)
v. 15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
v. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
v. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them.
But in this physical life the elect only receive the earnest of the Spirit and will receive the fullness in the resurrection, when the elect become spirit, as Christ so shall we be.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
2Cor 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment. I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.
Well we all die in this life. The exception would be that generation at Christ's return.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
And the vast majority will not have had their eyes open to the truth, before they die. So when all are resurrected, they will then have their eyes opened. But it will be a process of coming to the truth, they have to unlearn all the false teaching, just like the elect do now. They will have to learn to live a righteous life, just like the elect do now.
So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death? do they physically die again? do they get ever get a spritual body? They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.
When Christ returns there "will be no more death." (Rev 21:4)
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings. This is when Christ will turn His kingdom over to the Father and all will be all together as one.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
This heaven and earth passing away, hummm, it sounds symbolic in 2 Peter. It does say it's 'the day of the Lord,' so it may mean that the ways of the earth will be changed. We know that the spiritual fire does not actually burn physical things up.
2Peter 3:10 Howbeit the day of the Lord will be here, as a thief,—in which, the heavens, with a rushing noise, will pass away, while, elements, becoming intensely hot, will be dissolved, and, earth, and the works therein, will be discovered. (Rotherham)
Hi Jason,
The resurrection is on the 'day of the Lord' first for the just to be brought into the kingdom incorruptible. Then on the same 'day' the unjust or corrupt, to be cast into the Lake of fire to be judged. This is the resurrection of all the dead.
Act 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
When Christ and the elect returns He will judge on the earth or the people that are on it. Spirit being are not bound by the earth, they would be in the heavenly kingdom.
Psa 98:9 before Jehovah; for He comes to judge the earth; with righteousness He shall judge the world, and the peoples in uprightness.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Arcturus,
Thanks for adding your response :)
There is a great deal to this subject of the resurrection of the dead. I only know a little bit of what can be gained from the scripture, and it's not what I was ever taught.
It is an interesting topic to be considering for sure.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat writes: Well we all die in this life. The exception would be that generation at Christ's return.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
And the vast majority will not have had their eyes open to the truth, before they die.
Rocky writes: so, am i correct in that you see Hebrews 9:27 referring to physical death for non elect (except those physically alive at Christ's return), and spirtual death for elect??
Seems to me, the death in Hebrews 9:27 is the death administered by the law, and has nothing to do with physical death.
Paul talks how he was alive once, then the commandment came and he died.
Kat writes:
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.
Rocky writes:
How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??
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Hi Gang,
This is yet another great thread! Thanks everyone for sharing your insights for the rest of us to ponder and learn from :)
Here are some of my thoughts as I was reading this thread:
Rocky,
I sense that you are struggling with the idea of "two" deaths, one being physical and one being spiritual and when and how all of this happens. I use to get hung up on the phrase "the second death" of Revelation, thinking that it is literally a second death happening after a first death.
Now I'm not saying this isn't true as it may well be. But here's also how I've come to look at it from another angle which helps to clarify things for me, as I try to sort out the grand theme of the two resurrections.
The "two deaths" show up right at the beginning of the bible in Genesis; though this cannot be detected in most bible translations here is the verse in the Concordant Literal Version:
Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
Gen 2:17
In an interlinear you can see it in Hebrew as "muth thmuth" and underneath it reads "to-die you-shall-die".
We know then, that this body of "dust" is destined to return to the dust.
For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.
Gen 3:19
You see, we are "physically" dyING the moment we are born. This is a given, an unavoidable fact. In a sense, I see it as yet another "literal" experience that is a "type" or "shadow" of the spiritual experience: the TRUE death is the death of the carnal mind. It is the only death we really need to understand or even concern ourselves with. Physical death is a PROCESS which is a reflection of the only real and true death and that is the PROCESS of spiritual death. Therefore, the bible is really speaking of ONE death....Ray talks about this many times, how everything in the scriptures is really ONE....there may be a "literal" meaning but it points to the "spiritual" meaning....so in fact there is really only ONE meaning.
For example, there are not TWO sabbaths, one physical and one spiritual.....No, there is ONLY ONE Sabbath. There is a literal seventh day which is called the Sabbath...but what concern is this to the spiritually minded??? It is the true spiritual Sabbath (Jesus) that the physical Sabbath points to...once a believer understands this, the physical loses all significance and the spiritual meaning can be embraced. Ray has said, if one focuses too much on the "lilteral, physical" thing, you will never see the spiritual.
With this in mind, when we are reading about death in the bible, it points to this all important spiritual death.....the ONE death:
And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
Heb 9:27
I believe this is referring to that spiritual death....it is the ONE death, the ONLY death we need to understand, it has nothing to do with physically having to die.
Now Paul says, he dies daily....is he dying mulitple spiritual deaths??? No, I think what this means is this spiritual death is a process, but it is the same ONE death. One in unity of meaning.
So then, when Revelation speaks about the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire, most of us understand and see that this is that ONE spiritual death. It is that same death the elect go through now. So why is it called the "second" death. I think it is merely called the second death because it corresponds to the "second" resurrection. The people in the second resurrection die the second death....you see? They are not dying twice. It is still ONE death, "second" is simply a name applied to the group of people who are coming up in the resurrection to judgment.
This is why I also think (as discussed on other threads) that the two resurrections could happen on the same day or even simultaneously and the first resurrection is called "first" because it is FOREMOST in importance and honor. Just as we leave our "first" love....we're not leaving a love that was "first" sequentially in our lives, rather a love which is MOST IMPORTANT in our life, first in honor, meaning and priority.
The physical death is a shadow. It's not important that everyone MUST physically die, anymore than it is important that every believer MUST keep a physical seventh day Sabbath. A believer may have never kept the "7th day" his whole life, but if he keeps the spiritual Sabbath, that is all that matters. So then, many may be physically alive when Jesus comes and not experience a physical death of the body....so what?? (they will instead be "transformed" and lose their physical bodies that way). It is not appointed on to man to "physically" die once but to spiritually die once...and this will happen in the lake of fire for all those who are not the elect.
I hope this has made sense and hasn't confused the issue more.
I just thought it might give people like Rocky another angle to look at, and hopefully help anyone to let go of struggling to understand how physical death plays in to all of this.
Kat writes:
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.
Rocky writes:
How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??
I think what possibly happens Rockey is that all who are resurrected (whether first or second) will be resurrected into their new "spiritual" bodies which are NOT corrupt....BUT the second resurrection group will still possess the carnal mind/heart which will need to be burned out of them....they still need to die! (spiritually speaking of course) and this has nothing to do with a physical body.
This really is a grand subject which will likely take all of our lives and then some to truly understand....so these are just some of my humble thoughts.
Together perhaps we can all add our insights and get closer to the truth, by the grace of God.
Peace to all of you,
Diana
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Hi rocky,
Seems to me, the death in Hebrews 9:27 is the death administered by the law, and has nothing to do with physical death.
I think you are right about that verse referring only to spiritual death.
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.
Rocky writes:
How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??
What I am thinking it may be, is that when those in the next age, under Christ's rule reach spiritual maturity, then they will be changed into spirit, and enter the kingdom. This is how the elect will be changed at Christ's appearing, it is referred to as the first resurrection, because most will be raised from the grave, but those alive will only be changed to spirit.
So if there is no death after Christ returns, then why would there be a resurrection?
In Rev 21 it is speaking of Christ setting up His new kingdom, the earth will become a different place under Christ's rule.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
v. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
v. 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
v. 5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
v. 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
v. 7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
This is what Christ's will do for the people on the earth. But verse 8 shows how He will accomplish it.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
There is this mention of what those that reach spiritual maturity can receive, there name written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
v. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
v. 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
v. 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Good post Diana :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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There are precedents to the fact that Jesus can raise one from the grave or tomb to physically continue life.
Matt 9 : 25 But when the crowd had been ordered to go outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.
Matt 27 : 53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Luke 7 : 14 And He went forward and touched the funeral bier, and the palbearers stood still. And He said, Young man I say to you, arise. And the man who was dead sat up.
Luke 11 : 43....He (Jesus) shouted with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 And out walked the man who had been dead.
Heb 11 : 35 Some women received again their dead by a resurrection...
These events in Scripture are within the scope and operation of Christ and for me they foreshadow the Resurrection to life in the Spirit of Christ, or to judgment in the flesh that is appointed to die the second death.
Not all will be raised incorruptible. Were those who were raised in the times of Christ, raised incorruptible. I don't think so. Only Christ Jesus has was and is incorruptible. Some will share in HIS inheritance appointed to HIM by the Father. Everyone will be saved but not all will be raised incorruptible to share in the reward that Christ brings to the Elect.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Thank you for this reply Arcturus.
Although, I still have questions. Do we know for sure that those that were raised at Christ's resurrection weren't raised incorruptible?
I'm sorry for all of the questions that I have for everyone.
I appreciate all of your answers, and replies very much, I just need more info. You guys know how babyon was, and is, so I know that you can relate to where I'm coming from. Lord willing, this will come clear in my mind.
In Christ,
Jason
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Hi Jason,
Oh yes, we can all well relate to how much undoing of Babylon we all need in our lives! If questions are stirring in your mind, this is likely God spurring you to study and seek Him out. It's ALL good!
Although, I still have questions. Do we know for sure that those that were raised at Christ's resurrection weren't raised incorruptible?
Your question caused me to review this passage of scripture:
Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
1Co 15:49-55
There may be some clues in this passage that can help us understand WHEN we become incorruptible.
"...we shall ALL be changed...at the last trumpet" When is the last trumpet? I'm not exactly sure, but at the very least it seems it hasn't happened yet.
I had always thought the last trumpet IS the resurrection, when Jesus returns:
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:16
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:31
Either way, since the last trumpet has not occurred, those who were raised thus far in any resurrection, would not have been raised incorruptible. It looks like they would have been raised back into physical "dying" bodies....and all of them would have died by now and are sleeping the sleep of death.
Now, twice in this passage it says, that at the time of the resurrection, "we shall ALL be changed...." Then it says, "for the dead will be raised imperishable..." is this all the dead or just the elect dead? I suppose it could be argued that Paul is speaking to the brethern (the elect) but I'm not sure that it is clarified here in this passage. We know that the elect are raised to eternal (aionious) life, which seems to me clarifies what kind of life they are raised to...it seems to me aionious life is referring to the life of honor, ruling as priests and kings alongside Jesus; the age of ruling the nations with a rod of iron (the spiritual millennium age).
Now, the rest of humanity are also raised to "life", but a different kind of life. Their life will initially consist of a life of judgment (just as the elect experienced before them). Once the judgment is complete, and the spiritual death to the carnal mind is experienced, then Jesus gives back the Kingdom to the Father, and God will be all in all.
So in that sense, once the "perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality" there will be no more death of "life". Whether that means the non-elect will have physical bodies that will eventually be changed, I don't know. It seems to me from this passage that it is at the time of the resurrection that the "change" occurs for everyone. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I suppose you may "need" the physical body to learn how to overcome such things as the "lust" of the flesh. But then again, these things are really spiritual. It is not your body parts themselves that are sinning, but it is the "heart" of man that is desperately wicked....it is in the heart (not a pumping organ) where sin plays itself out. So then, what need is there of a physical body?? Things that make you go hmmm......
However, the last part of this passage raises more questions,"O death, where is your sting?"
because the next verse is:
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin comes from the Law.
1Co 15:56
Here's where I'm caused again to wonder.....this must be after "sin is no more"....and how can this be when the nations (the non-elect) must still be purged and cleansed, that is, they are still struggling and learning to overcome sin....because "death is swallowed up in victory" only after "the perishable puts on the imperishable"....
Hey Kat, do you know if Ray writes about this?? I haven't been able to find it so far.
Anyways Jason, I hope you might be closer to your answer about those raised at Christ's resurrection. Those were possibly yet another "physical" type of the spiritual which is yet to come.
May God shine His light of wisdom on all of us,
Peace to you brothers and sisters,
Diana
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Great post Diana!
Lord willing, we will understand these truths.
God bless,
Jason
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i've been thinking more on this today, and thank you all for your feedback.
There is only ONE resurrection, and that is Jesus Christ. He came in the flesh, a jew, under law; died to the flesh and rose again (resurrected) and declared Son of God with power, according to the spirit.
Rom 1:4 Who is designated Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead),
He was the firstfruit, guaranteeing an order for all to be resurrected.
The one resurrection happens in stages, Christ, the first fruit, then those at his coming (his body, the first fruits), then the end/consumation (the non elect). All are the ONE resurrection, through the cross, death to life.
To me, the resurrection is a process, not a single event, and we currently are being ressurected, dying to flesh, death being swallowed up in life; with full consumation at his coming.
The resurrection of the non elect, is also a death to life process, death to "human possiblility=flesh, and life in the spirit, which is not happening now, but will occur at his coming.
i dont' see the non elect as resurrected first, then judged, but rather the resurrection to judgment as the same thing as the ONE resurrection, where death is swallowed up in life.
I was also thinking about how Christ died and rose again for us, but not so we don't have to die and be raised, but rather so that we can be baptized into his death. He is the forerunner.
Then I thot of this verse,
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
I started thinking about the elect, and their baptism into Christ's death, how they also were being baptized for the dead, the non elect, to occur at the consumation.
Shed new light on I Co 15:29.
Thanks to all for the input.
.
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Hi Diana,
We know, by God's mercy, that all scripture is one. It all speaks of one God, one Lord and one Body. And all the parables, stories, history, shadows, types, mysteries and revelation point to Christ. He and He alone is the focal point of all scripture. He is, was and will be. Every type and shadow of the old Testament and the new Testament speak of Christ. You can't have an old (was) without having a new (is) without having Christ. And you can't have a will be without having Christ, for He is, was and will be. If the kindom of heaven is within you, and Christ who is the King of the kingdom is within you, then all these scriptures must be in us now.
You said, ""...we shall ALL be changed...at the last trumpet" When is the last trumpet? I'm not exactly sure, but at the very least it seems it hasn't happened yet.
I had always thought the last trumpet IS the resurrection, when Jesus returns:
Diana, I think all these scriptures (although they will happen in the future for sure) are happening within us today. I think that we are being changed today...the strong delusion suggests that we won't be changed until the last trump.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Our problem is not the future or the past, it's now. This verse is not for the future, it's for now....
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he IS.
In Him,
Dwight
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Dwight,
That was beautiful and I agree. For those who have ears, and eyes to see! :)
IS, WAS, AND WILL BE. All for our dear Lord Jesus Christ.
Glory be to God,
Lisa
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Yes, Dwight, you are right; the scriptures do tell us that we are being changed daily into HIS image,. So i am in agreement with you that this changing in us is a STRONG DELUSION to the masses who believe that they must weight for it to occur. I thank God that it is happening NOW for some of us and that HE has given us the eyes to see these truths. :)
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Hi Dwight,
Amen to your post! I'm still learning to remember to apply the "is,was, and will be" principal to all my studies. I do agree that the "is" application is integral to see in the scripture, especially if we are to see the spiritual meanings.
I also see how the scriptures are all one...which is why I think the scriptures are speaking of one death. And I love what Rocky says here about the one resurrection:
There is only ONE resurrection, and that is Jesus Christ. He came in the flesh, a jew, under law; died to the flesh and rose again (resurrected) and declared Son of God with power, according to the spirit.
Rom 1:4 Who is designated Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead),
He was the firstfruit, guaranteeing an order for all to be resurrected.
The one resurrection happens in stages, Christ, the first fruit, then those at his coming (his body, the first fruits), then the end/consumation (the non elect). All are the ONE resurrection, through the cross, death to life.
To me, the resurrection is a process, not a single event, and we currently are being ressurected, dying to flesh, death being swallowed up in life; with full consumation at his coming.
I realize that those in Christ (the elect) are being changed in their life in the flesh...(God willing that includes me!!)....but figuring out that process, especially as it is laid out in Revelation, and then trying to discern where I'm at personally within that process, is quite the challenge!!
In his talk on How Hard is Getting Saved, Ray discusses how Jesus never converted anyone during His earthly ministry. How the first conversions were at Pentecost:
When came around Pentecost time though, a whole bunch of them were converted. About 120 of them. But Christ was leading them up to that. And He’s probably leading some of us up to that…
All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.
I can see how some of these things have happened in my life, and God is revealing more to me all the time. But I have yet an overwhelming way to go.
Dwight, you say:
Diana, I think all these scriptures (although they will happen in the future for sure) are happening within us today. I think that we are being changed today...the strong delusion suggests that we won't be changed until the last trump.
So the changing is happening now, but the completion of that change, when we are finally immortal and incorruptible, won't happen until the last trump...am I understanding this right? I guess I'm just not yet clued in as to how the last trump happens in the life of the elect, or even what it is. Because if it is at that time that the mortal is changed to immortal etc. how can this be since while living in the flesh we yet carry sin....while living in the flesh we are still corruptible, right?
I pray God gives me eyes to see!
Thanks Dwight for inspiring me to look deeper,
Peace,
Diana
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Two resurections:
Two resurrections is fundamental to Rays teachings. I hope, you hope, we hope to attain to the first resurrection, also known as the high calling, the prize, the crown , our reward. If we attain the first resurrection it is because we have gone through the judging that begins in the house of God. Having been judged in this life is how we attain the first resurrection to life.
All others are in the second resurrection, the resurrection to judgment.
All others includes everyone in the OT and anyone who has not received the holy spirit and love the truth. The first resurrection elect do the judging of the second. Review Ray's Secret rapture paper and also Understanding Gods Truths, particularly #9.
Kat, I don't see where those in the second resurrection are resurrected with physical bodies as death is destoyed in the lake of fire.
Ask seeknock
Charles O
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Hi CEO,
I agree with your post.
And I don't have much to argue with you or any scripture about people having physical bodies after second resurrection. It just seems to me if they are going to be put on earth and learn to live righteous lives, it would be with a physical body. I wouldn't think they deserve a spiritual body yet either. There are those cases of people being raised to physical life in scripture, so we do have that example. I know those did eventually die, but the ones after the second resurrection could just be changed to spirit, when they were ready for it.
This is just speculation on my part.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Diana, I think all these scriptures (although they will happen in the future for sure) are happening within us today. I think that we are being changed today...the strong delusion suggests that we won't be changed until the last trump.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Our problem is not the future or the past, it's now. This verse is not for the future, it's for now....
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he IS.
In Him,
Dwight
Amen to that!!!!
That verse in 2 Cor. is such a powerful one!!!!!
"The revelation of Jesus Christ" in God's very Elect!!!
God bless,
Jason
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Hi Diana,
The very fact that you are asking for eyes to see and ears to hear, shows that you, and all who are seeking the same, will hear and see. You said....
"So the changing is happening now, but the completion of that change, when we are finally immortal and incorruptible, won't happen until the last trump...am I understanding this right? I guess I'm just not yet clued in as to how the last trump happens in the life of the elect, or even what it is. Because if it is at that time that the mortal is changed to immortal etc. how can this be since while living in the flesh we yet carry sin....while living in the flesh we are still corruptible, right?"
The book of Revelation begins with, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3
Notice, "for the time is at hand."The time is at hand and yet that was two thousand years ago.
John also said...
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Two thousand years ago it was,"the last time," and, "the time is at hand." We do know that the book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (symbolized) it by his angel unto his servant John: Rev. 1:1
Symbolic of what? The last time, and the time is at hand, that's what. Now if you take the principle of is, was and will be, there is no difference in John's day than our day. So all those symbols that he saw in his day, we have now in our day.
The seven angels (messengers) to the seven churches, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven plagues, the two witnesses and the 144,000 etc. are all God's elect. Even as you quoted Ray...
"All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives."
This is why Babylon (Christianity) cannot understand the mysteries of the kindom of heaven. God does not want them to understand.
Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
We are the last trumpet. The first shall be last, and the last (trump) shall be first. Everthing in the scriptures are the "called and the chosen." When we look at the scriptures in this way, it will help us see much clearer the deep things of God. Hope this helps a little.
In His love,
Dwight
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Hi everyone,
I have been only observing this thread but I want to put a couple of ideas out there into the mix.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Would angels then be transformed into flesh, bone & blood to go through a judgment? Is it possible (of course all things are possible with God) that those risen to "the second death" don't even realize they have died or been resurrected? Now this is pure speculation on my part and a just thought, not even a theory. I have not discovered anything definitive yet on those who are risen to the White Throne Judgment, remember the Revelation is a book of symbols and we should be careful to not take it purely literal.
But if angels (spiritual creatures with carnal minds) can be transformed in the Lake of Fire, why not a risen (in a spirit body) man also be purified in a like manner?
The second part is while reading this I began to think about what Peter wrote in 1Peter Chapter 4;
(I prefer the Rotherham's Translation here)
1Peter 4:12 Beloved! be not held in surprise by the burning among you, which [for putting you to the proof] is befalling you. As though a [surprising] thing were happening unto you;
1Peter 4:13 But <in so far as ye are taking fellowship in the Christ's sufferings> rejoice!
In order that in the revealing of His glory also ye may rejoice with exultation:
1Peter 4:14 <If ye are being reproached in the name of Christ > happy [are ye]!
1Peter 4:15 For let [none of you] be suffering as a murderer, or as a thief, or an evil doer, or as one prying into other men's affairs;
1Peter 4:16 But < if as a Christian> let him not be ashamed, but be glorifying God in this name.
1Peter 4:17 For it is ripe for the judgment to begin with the house of God;
But <if first with us> what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Peter 4:18 And <if the righteous man is with difficulty saved> Where then shall the ungodly and sinful man appear?
This (I believe) testifies to a different experience for unbelievers and the called than what it is, was, and will be experienced by His elect.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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I don't have the reasoning powers to understand all this. What I do know is that He is sufficient and it will all happen in the way God has planned. Study and meditation on the scripture is vitally important and as important is showing through our lives the change that the Holy Spirit has made in our lives. I apologize for interrupting the study going on but I believe faith is the answer and reaching out to others that come into our lives is what is most pleasing to God. He's got the future covered whether it is eternity, tomorrow , aionian(?) .
Seminole
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Hi Everyone,
There is much to ponder and study in this thread!
Two resurections:
Two resurrections is fundamental to Rays teachings. I hope, you hope, we hope to attain to the first resurrection, also known as the high calling, the prize, the crown , our reward. If we attain the first resurrection it is because we have gone through the judging that begins in the house of God. Having been judged in this life is how we attain the first resurrection to life.
All others are in the second resurrection, the resurrection to judgment.
All others includes everyone in the OT and anyone who has not received the holy spirit and love the truth. The first resurrection elect do the judging of the second. Review Ray's Secret rapture paper and also Understanding Gods Truths, particularly #9.
Of course you are right Charles..there is a first and a second resurrection, and we are to reach for the high calling of the "better" resurrection (Heb 11:35). But I also understand what Rocky is saying about the ONE resurrection, being Jesus Christ. Without his death and resurrection there would not be any for us, and it is through Him that all of us are resurrected. So while there are two resurrections, I don't see the resurrections themselves as being "different" but rather the resurrections of two "different" groups of people. This may be "splitting hairs" so I apologize, I only wanted to show how I can think that both of you could be right ;)
Kat, I don't see where those in the second resurrection are resurrected with physical bodies as death is destoyed in the lake of fire.
I have wondered in the past about the passage in Ezekiel 37:1-14 where it looks like there is a resurrection to physical bones and flesh, but whether this is really what it means....I don't know. Bones and sinew could be symbolic for something spiritual maybe? Still waiting on the Lord on this one.... ???
Dwight,
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand. God may be putting you and your family through many trials, but he has also blessed you with a heart that searches out the deep things of God! I always learn something from you and it inspires me to never stop looking deeper...thank you! :)
We are the last trumpet. The first shall be last, and the last (trump) shall be first. Everthing in the scriptures are the "called and the chosen." When we look at the scriptures in this way, it will help us see much clearer the deep things of God. Hope this helps a little.
Helps a lot brother!
Hi Joe,
Is it possible (of course all things are possible with God) that those risen to "the second death" don't even realize they have died or been resurrected?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had thoughts like this!! This is an intriguing thought...especially since death itself is unconscious, to our perspective we pass from life to life, going to sleep and waking up as if we've had a night's rest.
1Peter 4:17 For it is ripe for the judgment to begin with the house of God;
But <if first with us> what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Peter 4:18 And <if the righteous man is with difficulty saved> Where then shall the ungodly and sinful man appear?
This (I believe) testifies to a different experience for unbelievers and the called than what it is, was, and will be experienced by His elect.
It seems it likely will be scariest for those who have a perverted view of God, thinking Him capable of throwing His children into a fiery pit of torture....
with the pure you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you show yourself perverse.
Psa 18:26 (NRS)
or here's how the Douay-Rheims renders it:
And with the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.
Psa 18:26
Remember Joseph's brothers? Even after they were all re-united and Joseph had provided for them, this whole time the brothers still thought Joseph would yet take revenge on them, and kill them. They still did not comprehend that Joseph (representing Elect/Christ) did not operate or think like them....This is why forgiveness and love is so important to learn and embrace in this life. If you carry in your heart the desire to see your enemies roasting in an eternal hell....you may experience for a season that this is happening to you on resurrection day....
what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Pe 4:17
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:2
May we all yield to the glad-message of God now, in this life!!
Peace,
Diana
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There is so much being brought out in this topic.
One thing I would like to mention is about the trumpet, Ray has a segment in his no. 13 paper "Jesus Christ is the sounding Trumpet." Here is an excerpt from that paper.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------------
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SOUNDING TRUMPET
"…AND HEARD BEHIND ME A GREAT VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last…"
The Alpha and Omega is CHRIST. This "voice of a trumpet" is Christ. There is something most interesting about this statement of John’s. John says he "heard behind me a GREAT voice, as of a trumpet."
You will be interested to learn that the word "great" is used 72 times in Revelation. But only five times is it said to be a "great VOICE." We will look at the last four and then come back to the first:
-----------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks for clearing that up Kat!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (together, at the same time??)
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put n incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.
Ray says "Look at the words."
We have a physical body, we will have a spiritual body.
IT'S ALL ONE!!!
Iris
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Hi
Thank yall for your comments. I feel we are all very close in our understanding. Compare our views with the other 6 1/2 billion souls on earth today. I am sorry I will not be in Nashville. Verbalizing give and take on the fine details would be really fun.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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I believe and as I have accepted and been taught here in Bible Truths,the Judgment is on the house of God now means NOW upon those called and chosen. Those who are called and not chosen will be raised to judgement in the second Resurrection at the White Throne.
God does not change and this process of changing us to His image has been on going since the garden of Eden, and continued once Christ came and it will continue until He returns.
After Christ returns then the elect and Christ will correct, train and judge those that remain in the second Resurrection. Once all is put under the feet of Christ to adore and recognise HIM as Lord of all and King above all, then Christ will submit to God all and HIMSELF and then after that God will be All in all.
Arcturus :)
This post brings up a question i have.
We know in this verse
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
this seems sequential to me, die and then judgment.
Dying comes before judgment. God doesn't change; and judgment is now on house of God. So the elect must of died already if we are going through judgment now (as judgment is after death). So this death seems to me must not be a physical death, if we are already going through judgment. And this judgment must not be producing death, as judgment is after death. So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again.
elect: die---->judgment now (in a state of death)-------->resurrected to life.
Now, it seems to me the non elect, die first, are resurrected to life next (rather than judged first), and then go through judgment. So judgment, is after resurrected life.
non elect: die-------->resurrected to life------->judged-------->???die again second death??-------->???resurrected again???
Am i way off on this?? seems God does change (at least in his order) in how he deals with elect versus non elect.
any ideas??
The DEAD aren't ressurected to LIFE. They are THE DEAD STANDING. Literaly that makes no sence, the dead CANNOT stand, but in this we are seeing tehse people are still SPIRITUALY DEAD. Then they are put through the fire of Judgement, and given life after. Death - Judgement, LIFE.
Make sence? sorry this is late lol, i thought the forums were down, or they were with me.
If this was answered, my apoligies also.
Love in Christ,
Alex
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This post brings up a question i have.
We know in this verse
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
this seems sequential to me, die and then judgment.
Dying comes before judgment. God doesn't change; and judgment is now on house of God. So the elect must of died already if we are going through judgment now (as judgment is after death). So this death seems to me must not be a physical death, if we are already going through judgment. And this judgment must not be producing death, as judgment is after death. So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again.
elect: die---->judgment now (in a state of death)-------->resurrected to life.
Now, it seems to me the non elect, die first, are resurrected to life next (rather than judged first), and then go through judgment. So judgment, is after resurrected life.
non elect: die-------->resurrected to life------->judged-------->???die again second death??-------->???resurrected again???
Am i way off on this?? seems God does change (at least in his order) in how he deals with elect versus non elect.
any ideas??
Alex writes:
The DEAD aren't ressurected to LIFE. They are THE DEAD STANDING. Literaly that makes no sence, the dead CANNOT stand, but in this we are seeing tehse people are still SPIRITUALY DEAD. Then they are put through the fire of Judgement, and given life after. Death - Judgement, LIFE.
Make sence? sorry this is late lol, i thought the forums were down, or they were with me.
If this was answered, my apoligies also.
Love in Christ,
Alex
[/quote]
Rocky writes:
I understand what you are saying, but how does a physically dead person (one whose spirit returns to the Lord, flesh goes to dust, and soul ceases to exist) come to "Dead Standing" in order to be judged?
To me, it has to be through a resurrection. Like arcturus said, maybe it's a resurrection to a physical body again in order to be judged. I personally don't think this is the case. Jesus is the resurrection. I don't see after the cross, him raising people up temporarily again to physical life in order to judge them. But it is possible.
Here is what i am thinking, the second death is the second resurrection. It's a process, with a final consumation. To me this is the same as those going through the first resurrection (it is a process, now are going through it, with a consumation later). I think that is what you are saying too, by LIFE being the last thing given. The process of resurrection equals death to death=LIFE.
I just struggle with how this is done after physical death? Maybe the soul/carnal mind can exist without a physical body?? or all the people who ever died physically will be brought back to a physical life, to be judged in second death??
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The soul comes into existence through the Spirit of God and the dust made flesh. The soul can not exist independently as has been taught by pagan Egypt and believed in error by many.
Jesus said Matt 8:28 Follow ME, and let the DEAD bury their own dead.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Yes God breaths into all livings creatures the breath of life.
Gen 7:22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
I would like to add that it is another Spirit from God that is given to the elect now, and all will evenually receive the Holy Spirit also, but now in this life only the chosen few.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html -----------
ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Arcturus and Kat, I agree.
And if the LOF judgment is to "burn out" the carnal mind/"soul" through the LIFE giving Spirit, then it must be on a human as it is in humans the carnal mind/soul exists.
So this to me supports that I Corinthians 15 is for believers only, and not for non believers. The resurrection to judgment (John 5) appears to be on humans (a soul (body plus spirit being).
Unless the carnal mind is not the same thing as the soul, "thinking, emotions, etc.).
Or unless we are missing something in our thinking.
For some reason, the resurrection to judgment doesn't "feel right" to me in thinking it is on a "resurrected human again". But that could be just my carnal mind thinking this.
thanks to all for your replies.
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Rocky
Our spirit is conformed to the image of HIS Spirit. We are not annihilated. We are conformed!
Thanks Kat for the input. Yes, the Spirit of Christ dwells within those chosen and only with not within those called. The throne of the Beast has to be converted over to Christ by the Spirit of Christ as I understand this.
peace to you
Arcturus :)
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There is yet another consideration of the resurrection of the dead, and that is all the babies and young children that have died. So what age would they be raised to, if not the age of their death?
These little ones brought up from the grave will need a place to grow up, I would think physically.
If the elect are raised to rule the earth, and the resurrection of the dead is on the physical earth, why would the rest of the dead be raised spirit?
So this is not really that simple, that everyone will be raised and purged spiritually.
The Lake of fire judgment is a process of learning to 'live' a righteous life. Just like the elect are now, with the spirit of Christ indwelling, but living and learning while still physically alive.
Well just something else to think about.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Does anyone know what Ray believes re: if people are resurrected to judgment in a physical body again, or spiritual body?
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i went ahead and emailed him. Hopefuly he will have time to respond.
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Here is what i am thinking, the second death is the second resurrection. It's a process, with a final consumation. To me this is the same as those going through the first resurrection (it is a process, now are going through it, with a consumation later). I think that is what you are saying too, by LIFE being the last thing given. The process of resurrection equals death to death=LIFE.
This, my friend, is a very interesting thought.
God bless,
Jason
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:-\ I gotta tell you guys that basically, these same questions that you've discussed here, have been heavy on my own heart for a couple of weeks now!
1) if flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom....then those that ARE flesh and blood after the first resurrection could exist IN THE KINGDOM....but will NOT INHERIT the kingdom.
2) if, at the end of the millennium, no one is saved still....what purpose did the elect serve in "ruling and reigning" with Christ for the thousand years?
3) Since Satan is bound during that period....how can anyone learn to be an "overcomer" during that time?
4) if a "sudden conversion" like Paul's on the road to Damascus is an example of how the Lake of Fire "transforms" people....and Paul learned to "die to self" AFTER his conversion....what about the parallel of those destined for the Lake of Fire?
and many other similar questions...
Kat...I really appreciate what you've done: categorizing the teachings on Ray's site so that we all may learn more efficiently ...but all of these questions remain in my mind and I am seeking the Lord's answers daily now....as if in a RACE....I want to KNOW the TRUTH...I hope for EYES to SEE and EARS to HEAR!
God bless you all in your diligent search of the scriptures!
Joyce :)
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There is yet another consideration of the resurrection of the dead, and that is all the babies and young children that have died. So what age would they be raised to, if not the age of their death?
These little ones brought up from the grave will need a place to grow up, I would think physically.
If the elect are raised to rule the earth, and the resurrection of the dead is on the physical earth, why would the rest of the dead be raised spirit?
Kat, this made me think of these verses:
Isaiah 65:17-24 ESV
17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.
20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.
I've wondered if this passage is speaking about the thousand years when the elect are ruling as Priests and Kings (my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands).
It looks like during this period, when God creates the new heavens and the new earth, people are laboring and bearing children. Yet we read here:
Mark 12:25 ESV
25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
This passage sure sounds like it would be that blissful period of the millennium when Satan is bound. I've often wondered why God would loose Satan on such a supposed utopia....and this falls into the category of Joyce's question:
3) Since Satan is bound during that period....how can anyone learn to be an "overcomer" during that time?
It looks like, with the elect and Christ ruling the nations with a rod of iron, no sin will be tolerated and perhaps will be dealt with on the spot...so in some ways the people will learn the evils of sin and repent...
But Satan's job is to destroy the flesh, to consume it:
1 Corinthians 5:5 ESV
5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh
and we know that the serpent (Satan) eats dust (man)
so, I'm thinking Satan is released to finally put an end to all flesh (whether that's literal physical flesh, or some spiritual carnality of the mind I don't know) but either way it seems Satan must complete his mission before he himself can be converted....
I just can't figure out why else God would release Satan ???
Peace,
Diana
This seems to be the never ending thread! :D
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Hi Diana,
Those scripture in Isaiah does seem to be referring to Christ's reign on earth to me too. It most certainly will be a new earth, everything will be different under Christ's rule and it will be good.
In verse 23 I do not believe that is talking about women having babies. The word children does not seem to be in the original version.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. (KJV)
Isa 65:23 "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.
It will also be a new heavens, and I do not believe Satan will the adversary from then on.
I speculate that the verse that says Satan will be bound, is talking about his time in the Lake of fire. He will be loosed when the age is ended, because I think he will be the last to be finished and when he is completely purged the age will end, and he will be loosed.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
v. 7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
But there is verse 3, and it goes with this except the word 'until,' and that makes it sound like he will decieve the nations after the thousand years.
Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.
The word 'until' from Strong's.
G891
achri achris
akh'-ree, akh'-rece
(of time) until or (of place) up to: - as far as, for, in (-to), till, (even, un-) to, until, while.
It says "that he should deceive the nations no more" would the word 'while' or 'as far as' "the thousand years should be fulfilled." seems to fit better to me.
Rev 20:3 And he casts him into the submerged chaos and locks it, and seals it over him (lest he should still be deceiving the nations) until the thousand years should be finished. After these things he must be loosed a little time." (CLV)
And at the end of the thousand years, which is the white throne judgment, all humanity will be "...All in all." (1 Cor.15:28) with God. So who is Satan going to deceive anyway?
But next in verse 8, I'm speculating here that this is back before Satan was imprisoned, at the end of this age.
Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
v. 9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.
This verse 9 sounds like that will happen at the end of this age, and "fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them." this is when Christ return and His fire is on the earth.
2Pe 3:7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
This is a lot of specilation and if Ray comes out and explains this differently, I would have no problem straightening my understanding :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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This post brings up a question i have.
We know in this verse
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
this seems sequential to me, die and then judgment.
Dying comes before judgment. God doesn't change; and judgment is now on house of God. So the elect must of died already if we are going through judgment now (as judgment is after death). So this death seems to me must not be a physical death, if we are already going through judgment. And this judgment must not be producing death, as judgment is after death. So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again.
elect: die---->judgment now (in a state of death)-------->resurrected to life.
Now, it seems to me the non elect, die first, are resurrected to life next (rather than judged first), and then go through judgment. So judgment, is after resurrected life.
non elect: die-------->resurrected to life------->judged-------->???die again second death??-------->???resurrected again???
Am i way off on this?? seems God does change (at least in his order) in how he deals with elect versus non elect.
any ideas??
Alex writes:
The DEAD aren't ressurected to LIFE. They are THE DEAD STANDING. Literaly that makes no sence, the dead CANNOT stand, but in this we are seeing tehse people are still SPIRITUALY DEAD. Then they are put through the fire of Judgement, and given life after. Death - Judgement, LIFE.
Make sence? sorry this is late lol, i thought the forums were down, or they were with me.
If this was answered, my apoligies also.
Love in Christ,
Alex
Rocky writes:
I understand what you are saying, but how does a physically dead person (one whose spirit returns to the Lord, flesh goes to dust, and soul ceases to exist) come to "Dead Standing" in order to be judged?
To me, it has to be through a resurrection. Like arcturus said, maybe it's a resurrection to a physical body again in order to be judged. I personally don't think this is the case. Jesus is the resurrection. I don't see after the cross, him raising people up temporarily again to physical life in order to judge them. But it is possible.
Here is what i am thinking, the second death is the second resurrection. It's a process, with a final consumation. To me this is the same as those going through the first resurrection (it is a process, now are going through it, with a consumation later). I think that is what you are saying too, by LIFE being the last thing given. The process of resurrection equals death to death=LIFE.
I just struggle with how this is done after physical death? Maybe the soul/carnal mind can exist without a physical body?? or all the people who ever died physically will be brought back to a physical life, to be judged in second death??
[/quote]
What i know about the reesurrection of the Dead is this;
1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
We are told that the natural body is raised a spiritual body.
So they are raised in a spiritual body, bieng dead they stand. After this they are judged and given life.
Thats atleast how i understand it, i could be wrong offcourse =]
I havn't read through the WHOLE thread so this could have already been covered. Again my apoligies if it has been.
God bless,
Alex
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The question is " Two resurrections; when do they take place?
For me the first resurrection is and has been taking place in the NOW ever since Pentecost for the few chosen through out the ages.
The second resurrection begins at the return of Christ after the chosen have been gathered.
Rom 11 : 25 ............... I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren; a hardening insensibility has temporarily befallen a part of Israel TO LAST until the FULL NUMBER OF THE INGATHERING OF THE Gentiles has come in.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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i went ahead and emailed him. Hopefuly he will have time to respond.
I did get an email back from Ray, here is what it said.
Rocky writes: "Hi Ray, we've been discussing on the forum re: the resurrection to judgment and LOF.
In regards to non believers/non elect, some think that those who have physically died, will be resurrected into a physical being again to under go judgment and go through second death , while others see it as a spiritual resurrection.
Wondering how you see it? thanks.
Rocky"
Ray writes:
"Dear Rocky: I do not see Saddam or his sons being resurrected or being "..raised in INCORRUPTION...raised in GLORY...raised in POWER...raised a SPIRITUAL body"
(I Cor. 15:42-44). That's heresy from the days of M.V., and I don't believe most of his "revelations."
God be with you,
Ray"
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That's heresy from the days of M.V., and I don't believe most of his "revelations."
Brain fart here.......who was M.V.?
Matt
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Hi Matt,
M.V. is someone Ray used to be connected with in this work, but they no longer associate. They do not agree and have differing teachings on many things.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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So the chosen will be raised to incorruption and the called to judgment, many or few lashings to correct and straighten them out until they know and recognise and bow to Christ as Lord of Lords. When will this happen. For me it will happen when Christ returns. Till then, the chosen are being gathered in each generation, and are being prepared, judged and elected for rulership with Christ under His Sovereignty. That is the prize I believe that has been won by Paul the Apostle of Christ and is the prize he exhorts us to run our race to win. 8) ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Kat, is he talking about Mike? He didn't lose his way did he? I actually learned a lot from him too.
Matt
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I wondered the same Matt. He seemed like a real good guy. Seminole
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Mike used to agree with the teachings of Ray then he went totally out of sync!
That is a lesson in itself. We can walk the walk talk the talk then end up like Judas. It can happen to anyone! God can remove His wisdom knowledge and understanding from anyone anytime. Those who are kept by Christ and continue in discernment, suffer the loss of once close ties with brothers or sisters who become estranged to the truth. This loss is painful, disappointing but part of our training in right standing with God not man.
I believe the teachings we receive through Ray, are inspired of God. If not. I am deceived and will find out. If correct then I am blessed and privileged to be shown great insights that reveal who God is and Who His Son Jesus Christ is. Now that is important!
The loss of Disciples happened in the experience of Jesus Himself. All abandoned Him. I should not be overly concerned with speculation, supposition or the how and wherefore's but should keep on with the business of following Christ and learning how to continue in His footstep's :) To do otherwise would be to loose the plot! ...like going after finding out how someone got lost and following after their footsteps!....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Back to the subject at hand, it does seem to me that Ray is thinking those in second resurrection are raised to a state of carnality to then have the carnal burned out. He never really answered my question re :would they be physical bodies. Maybe there is no clear cut answer.
What do you all think about that resurrection as not being a one moment event, but a process; so in other words the elect are being resurrected now as the carnal mind is being destroyed, yet to be fully revealed;
and the second resurrection is also a process of carnal mind being destroyed, so in other words not resurrected, then judged in LOF; but the resurrection of judgment is the LOF?
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Yes I think you are correct Rocky.
The Scriptures do say "Ye shall see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the Kingdom of God." This does not mention that Christ and His Apostles will be visible in carnal form mingling with the earthly phase of the kingdom. Others will be gnashing teeth not to be part of this honor of inheriting the earth and ruling with Christ as with a rod of iron to establish judgment and knowledge of God on earth.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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i went ahead and emailed him. Hopefuly he will have time to respond.
I did get an email back from Ray, here is what it said.
Rocky writes: "Hi Ray, we've been discussing on the forum re: the resurrection to judgment and LOF.
In regards to non believers/non elect, some think that those who have physically died, will be resurrected into a physical being again to under go judgment and go through second death , while others see it as a spiritual resurrection.
Wondering how you see it? thanks.
Rocky"
Ray writes:
"Dear Rocky: I do not see Saddam or his sons being resurrected or being "..raised in INCORRUPTION...raised in GLORY...raised in POWER...raised a SPIRITUAL body"
(I Cor. 15:42-44). That's heresy from the days of M.V., and I don't believe most of his "revelations."
God be with you,
Ray"
Getting a more "in depth" understanding of what in the world is going on here would be nice ;)
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
What is going on here??? This is after the thousand years were expired that Satan was loosed during. Are these Scriptures just NOT in a 1,2,3 order? I could really use some insight as to what this is about, especially after reading Ray's reply to your question.
God bless
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What messes me up is the 1000 year reign. Things make sense to me, if we look at it as elect judged now, death being swallowed up by life, as we daily die, and at the return of Christ; resurrected immortal, incorrupt.
The tares/non elect are gathered, and then go through GWT judgment and LOF.
But why the 1000 year reign in between the elect resurrection and the general resurrection??
To make things even more confusing for me, there is this verse
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
so here at the harvest, the tares are gathered first to be burned, ie: lof??
yet we have this verse in I Thess.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and then in Revelation,
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
First resurrection is the elect, yet they are not gathered First, the tares are??
confused.
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Here are the questions i am working through.
What is the 1000 year reign for?
What is Christ doing during his reign?
Is he reigning now? Is it at a later time?
I think a key is this verse regarding his reign;
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Seems to me, the "age" the last enemy is to be destroyed (death) is during the LOF/second death.
So it seems to me, that the reign of Christ and the destruction of death (LOF and reigning till the last enemy destroyed) could be the same thing.
Interestingly, the reign is also with the saints. And we know the saints are to judge the world.
So, I wonder is the 1000 year reign a seperate event prior to the GWT judgment/LOF, or is it a process of death being destroyed, a part of the LOF?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
I Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
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Hi rocky,
It seems to me you have figure out most of this already.
This thousand years is symbolic, it is not a literal period of time. I understand that it means whatever amount of time it takes, a day or a thousand years or more.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The elect are being judged now(1peter 4:17), so they will not be jugded with the world in the Lake of fire. This judgment is purging and chastening the elect to prepare them now to reign and rule with Christ, at His return.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!" (CLV)
Christ returns and all the elect who have died are resurrected, those still alive are immediately changed, and they all join Christ. This is the marriage supper(Rev 19:9). This is the reward of those faithful few. None after Christ returns will reign with Him, just those who are in the first resurrection.
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now when Christ returns, He comes to rule and to judge the world, there does not appear to be a time lapse here.
Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
The elect join with Christ and then immediately begin the judgment on the world, this is the white throne judgment.
Christ will reign and rule over the people on the earth(Rev 5:10), this is the judgment.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The first part of verse 5 is spurious and omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
v. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
v. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
All those raised to physical life, I think will be resurrected much the same as before they literally died. They will be judged and have to live a physical life on the earth, where the elect will be ruling with Christ, I think the whole earth will be the Lake of fire. The people will live on earth and be purged, Christ will rule them with a rod of iron, until they have reached spiritual maturity, and then they too will be changed and given immortality.
Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
v. 14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
v. 15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
v. 16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
The world will be a very different place when Christ rules.
Rev 21 give a description of New Jerusalem, but it is mostly speaking symbolicly. The temple is Christ and His kingdom, where the elect will be with Him. The world will be constantly aware of the presents the Christ and will began to seek Him, until every knee shall bow(Phi 2:10).
Rev 21:2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.
v. 3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
v. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
v. 24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
v. 25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
v. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
v. 27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Well this is a lot of speculation on my part, but that is the way it seems to me.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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thanks Kat, that was a helpful post.
any ideas on this
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
so here at the harvest, the tares are gathered first to be burned, ie: lof??
seems backwards that tares are gathered first?
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also, do you see Christ as reigning now?
and do you see it possible that we are reigning now too, (but not fully revealed, only in ernest), but our life is hid in Christ, so not fully revealed??
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
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What i was wondering/thinking, is maybe part of the way we are reigning with Christ right now and helping defeat his enemies is:
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
I don't know, just some thoughts running through my head.
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Hello Rocky
Here are a few thoughts you might consider on some of your comments through your posts:
You ask : do you see Christ as reigning now?
Decidedly not. If He were would there be any doubt that He had returned? No. The scriptures declare that there will be rejection of those not received into the Kingdom. Christ Himself will tell them to Depart from Him. Has Mystery Babylon fallen yet? No. Has Mystery Babylon been told by Christ to depart from Him and now they are gnashing their teeth. No. They are still going strong and buying up jet planes on widows tithe money.
So has the full regal authority of Christ returned to earth yet? No. Those who preach that it has, profane the word of God and they neither know the word nor the power of Christ. Paul warned of this apostasy and condition of deception that the wolves would bring forward. Paul said : They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have TURNED SOME PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE FAITH.
You ask : and do you see it possible that we are reigning now too, (but not fully revealed, only in ernest), but our life is hid in Christ, so not fully revealed??
What conclusion does this question point to? That salvation has come? Do you think salvation has come and that the scriptures are now fulfilled that each person destined to die once, has died? No. Each person has not died once yet. Each person is not yet raised to resurrected life and into judgment or reward. This can only happen once Christ BRINGS salvation. THEN SALVATION will appear because CHRIST IS SALVATION – HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE. Has He come yet? No. If He has then I missed Him and so did Ray and some others who are looking for His return with anticipation and eagerness in waiting for His return. Heb 9 : 28 …Christ will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly WAITING FOR HIM. “We will receive our full reward at the resurrection, not while we are still in the flesh.” a very precious brother taught me. This is also fully endorsed by the Word of God.
There is serious danger of following after false teachings that say that Christ Has returned at any time in the past or the present or/and His Kingdom has come. Our Father who art in Heaven….Thy Kingdom COME…is NOT fulfilled yet.
Heb 2 : 1 So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it.
You ask : What i was wondering/thinking, is maybe part of the way we are reigning with Christ right now and helping defeat his enemies is:…
We do not reign in “part” Royalty is not in part. Authority is not partial and Christ when He returns He will come in Power, Might, fierceness and the wrath of Almighty God. Has that happened yet? I don't think so.
Consider the alternative. Christ has come. He is invisible. He is reigning through Benny Hinn and Jessie Du Plantas via TBN. He is sorry He did not take Satan up on his offer to give Christ all the Kingdoms of the world. I DON’T THINK SO!
Rocky, I know you cannot hear the tone of this Post. I am not trying to defeat you or make you feel uncomfortable or challenged. What I do challenge is the heresy and the inadequacy of what Mystery Babylon has professed to be the truth and is a brazen and bold lie.
The provocation to jealousy has not yet happened to Israel and the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet come in. This is yet a work in progress and Christ will come again! We can be certain, sure and faithful to that fact as prophesied in the Word of God. No dot or title has passed away and the word remains. We too have yet to die once not in type as in the death with Christ but in reality. Everyone has to die. It has not happened yet and I do not see Abraham, or Isaac ruling on earth yet as Christ prophesied. There is so much more to this. I hope you benefit from this post.
Here are some scriptures to consider:
Rom 8: 18,19 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory He WILL (future) reveal to us LATER. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that FUTURE DAY when God will reveal who his children really are.
2 Cor 1 : 22 And He has identified us (not that we have identified ourselves! He knows who are His and we know Him and follow His voice because of His Spirit in us) as His own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first INSTALLMENT that guarantees EVERYTHING (not part thereof as some would confuse us to think we have already received) He has promised us.
Peace be to you as you search for the truth, you shall surely find and I hope this post has helped scrap some of the confusion. God is not a God of confusion but of love, power and a sound mind.
Arcturus
:)
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Hi Joe,
That is an interesting way to look at it. I'm sure that is a good application of the tares.
But I have a different perspective also :)
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Now I'm thinking the tares are those who come among the elect, in many ways they look like the chosen, but they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. There are these 'tares' that remain among the elect until Christ returns.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
These wolves are wearing sheeps clothing(Matt7:15), they look like the elect, but are not.
The tares are mixed and mingled among the elect, and they do not know who the 'tares' are.
These 'tares' need to be separated from the body of Christ, which is His church(Col 1:24), before they meet Christ.
1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
v. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
The whole church of Christ--the elect, will go to meet Christ in the air, this is when the wheat will be gather to Christ. But first the tares must be removed from the body.
This looks like the way it is explained in the scripture about the sheep and the goats.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
I agree with Arcturus, all the scriptures that I could find on Christ reigning, referred to after His return.
Now I don't think it would be wrong to say He is reigning in the lives of the elect now. Maybe that can be applied to this scripture.
Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ .
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks for the replies.
Joe, I do see and have thought of your interpretation of tares and wheat, and I think that is another application (an internal one). And I do see the tares being burned out of me, and the wheat hopefully is all that will be left.
But as I think Ray has said in the past, all the parables tell the same story, "called versus chosen". Thanks Kat for your explanation of the tares and wheat too, I'm still hung up on the tares gathered "first". Maybe it's to many years of rapture thinking still messing me up.
Kat writes: "Now I don't think it would be wrong to say He is reigning in the lives of the elect now. Maybe that can be applied to this scripture.
Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ ."
The way I see the verse above, is it is "those who recieve grace" that reign through Christ. So are we reigning now with him? Obviously Christ is judging us now to conform us into his image, by his mercy; but at the same time purposely using us to start the defeat of the enemies (death=Israel) through us making them jealous.
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (seems to me, the making of Israel jealous is part of his plan to defeat the death in them).
If we are reigning with him, it is not fully manifest in my opinion, as grace is yet to be fully manifest.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Arcturus, if Christ is not king now, and has no kingdom yet; then how can we be translated into his kingdom?
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Is this scripture purely future? Are we (should say hopefully we, the chosen) still children of the night/darkness until the return of Christ; or are we children of the day, daily being conformed into his image by grace (life), not by law (death)?
1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
Thank you again for your replies and the opportunity to express things "outloud", as I dig.
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Rocky
Arcturus, if Christ is not king now,
EXCUSE ME? What does that mean? If Christ is not king now...WHAT? This comment immediately brings me to recall what Jesus said to Pontius Pilot John 18 : 36 My Kingdom, kingship, royal power belongs not to this world. IF MY KINGDOM were of this world, My followers would have been fighting to keep Me from being handed over to the Jews. But AS IT IS, MY KINGDOM IS NOT FROM HERE, THIS WORLD, IT HAS NO SUCH ORIGIN OR SOURCE.
You say...and has no kingdom yet; WHAT....WHO HOW? WHERE ???
You counter with the question ; then how can we be translated into his kingdom?....
OH I get it. Now I see your confusion. Look again at Genesis Rocky. It all begins THERE. ;D :D The translation is not Genesis 1 : 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them....as to say that they were already IN THE IMAGE of GOD. NO! How can the image of God sin against God? It can't! So Gen. 1 : 27 shows that this was the beginning of the work of God creating Sons and Daughters who would be perfected into the image of HIS SON. This is supported by Paul and the Scriptures show it over and over again. This was the beginning, the start and the work is a work IN PROGRESS until CHRIST comes AGAIN. Christ IS COMING AGAIN!
Then you pick up the following Scripture:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
YES This is the hope and the promise not the fulfilment in to-days times for the Kingdom of God is within not without yet. As Joe said. The tare is in us and is being burnt out in judgment to perfection on the chosen few.
You ask : Is this scripture purely future? Are we (should say hopefully we, the chosen) still children of the night/darkness until the return of Christ; or are we children of the day, daily being conformed into his image by grace (life), not by law (death)?
WE ARE NOT SINLESS. Are children of light sinless? YES. We are not there yet Rocky. We are not even BORN YET! ;D We are following THE LIGHT that is CHRIST and HE is leading us into becoming His Children of His Light :D We are still in the race. The race is not over yet. :D We are promised this reward for those who remain faithful till the end and for some, even to the death as in martyrdom.
You present the following scripture : 1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
Yes./ This describes CHRIST in us. HE is the child of GOD of light of the day. WE are the creations of Christ being made into His image and conformed into children to be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. It is the One true Son of God who dwells in us and HE alone has this title and merit which is HIS inheritance that He shares with us His brethren who HE is not afraid to call His friends.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Artc writes: YES This is the hope and the promise not the fulfilment in to-days times for the Kingdom of God is within not without yet.
I think this is where we differ, I dont' see the kingdom as being outward at some point. I think the kingdom is not physical, but spiritual (and always will be) imo.
I appreciate your replies Artcurus, but I need to back off, as they tend to make me want to debate, rather than discuss; and that is not my intention at all.
I think these verses are interesting.
Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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Hello Rocky
Your compilation of scriptures still do not prove that God does NOT call people elect BEFORE they are elect. :D That would make God very confused wouldn't it...but then some would have us believe that God is not Sovereign, Almighty and knows exactly how many hairs on your head!...or would that just mean spiritually speaking :D that God knows your thoughts BEFORE you think them! or that He is the potter and we the clay and that HE KNOWS ;D :D 8) what we have yet to find out! ;D
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I e-mailed Ray this morning after posting my thoughts on the "tares" parable and I should have consulted him first as I was confused as to what I perceived this to be when listening to this last week, here is the clarification/response from him and I am in agreement.
My apologies for this error!
Dear Joe: I hope I did not insinuate that. We (the ELECT) are the WHEAT, not the tares. Besides, we cannot be wheat and tares at the same time "growing up TOGETHER" as this parable suggests.
The wheat and the tares grow up TOGETHER in this world: "I pray not that Thou should take them out of the world, but that Thou should keep them FROM THE EVIL" (John `7:15).
The "EVIL"--"...the TARES are the Children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38). We are the "good seed" which are "the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDEOM [the Elect}..." (Matt. 13:38).
We are not "tares," but we do have "chaff," and it it is that CHAFF that is burned out of us, not "tares." I pointed this out in my last Installment on HELL:
Here, being baptized (immersed) in fire [pur] is as important and beneficial as being baptized with God's Holy Spirit.
"Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His [threshing] floor, and gather His wheat [wheat is good] into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12).
Chaff is the bracts enclosing the good, mature wheat, which is removed during threshing-it has no value as food, and so is burned like the wood, hay, and stubble of I Cor. 3:12. The Elect are composed of both the valuable wheat and the worthless chaff, but we are not the tares. Notice that the chaff is "burned up... with unquenchable fire." If this "unquenchable fire" "burns up" the chaff, surely it cannot be eternal. Unquenchable has nothing to do with eternal. Unquenchable fires is Scriptures that are not allowed to be quenched before they are allowed to burn themselves out.
Winnowing Wheat
"He will gather His wheat... but He will burn up the chaff" (Matt. 3:14).
We are the wheat of Jesus' parable, and we have unwanted chaff surrounding our lives. Jesus is not likening some people to wheat and others to chaff. The wheat is not one group and the chaff another, but rather the unwanted chaff belongs to the desired wheat. The wheat is the baby and the chaff is the bath water. We do not throw away the baby with the bath water, but we do throw away the dirty bath water (in this analogy the bath water represents chaff which is burned in fire).
Notice my statemehnt: "we ARE NOT THE TARES," in the middle of the third paragraph.
Hope this clears up your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
(It did)
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Well that just goes to show that God works all things to good for those who love Him...and that error sure helped me see better.
Thank you for the clarification Joe!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello everyone!
I have been reading through some of these replies, and I can totally understand where Rocky is coming from, as I have pretty much the same issues here. Let me show you my questions, that seem to not have been answered yet. Not by anyone, on this forum, or even elsewhere. This is not for anyone to take offence, and I hope that you don't take it that way.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is crystal clear. The tares(which are NOT the elect) are gathered first. Then we have this:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We have here something that seems TOTALLY different. First the dead in Christ are gathered, THEN those that are alive and remain are meeting the Lord in the air. This seems like a contradiction, and I have yet to find understanding about this. All I hear is "back peddling" about this subject. No offence to anyone, but no one has clarified this. Also:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
These last two verses that I quoted are in conflict with the wheat and the tares. The tares being NOT the elect are gathered first.
Then I will ask another question:
I hear a lot about those that are not the Elect will be raised in physical bodies. Where is the Scripture??? I have not seen one yet that says anything like this, only the complete opposite. Again, please don't take offence I pray, to my questions. If you don't know, believe me, I'm right there with ya.
Yet another question:
Revelation 20 has me very confused. It goes like the following order:
1. Those that are in the first resurrection will reign with Christ a 1000 years.
2. After the 1000 years Satan is loosed out of his prison.
3. Satan is then loosed to decieve the nations, and then cast into the Lake, and this is after the 1000 years.
4. After the 1000 years is the Great White Throne judgment in which the dead are judged.
What?
Okay, what I hear time and time again is that the Elect are the ones that are going to judge everyone that is not the Elect for a 1000 years, and that they are the Lake of fire. Where are the Scriptures for this doctrine? The only thing that I can see is that the rest of the dead are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years.
There are far too many things going on here that do NOT line up with that as far as I'm seeing, and what everyone has said about this. I could really use some insight on these questions. Bits and pieces make sense, but as far as the whole, it does not.
with love,
Jason
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Hello Jason
First off, if God did not say it then it is Heresy.
Revelations 20 : 5 is NOT in the oldest manuscripts. Why keep considering it as if it is Gods word? It is NOT Gods word!
Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ. What is so difficult?
In Rom 11:17 Paul tells of the Abrahamic covenant as a root out of which fleshly Israel grew naturally and which the Gentiles were grafted in after the natural branches were cut off. They were cut off because of disbelief and rejection of the truth and the Messiah who came to them and they knew Him not. So there you have the two types. The earthly, human and the heavenly spiritual that constitutes two phases of the kingdom.
The scriptures tell us that in order of development it was first the natural, earthly and then afterward the heavenly as in first from corruption or Adam and then conformed into Christ the second Adam. During the time of Abraham, the promise to him was earthly: it related to the land and this promise has not yet been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the still higher heavenly promises concerning Christ are fulfilled that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:13,39,40.
Also consider that they shall inherit the earth. Jesus said it. Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said that too. Is this not the two phases? Well I believe it is.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
earth:
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.
maybe this is a stretch, but since Jesus was speaking spiritual truths, could it be that the earth, "land", is the promised land.
earthly Promised land a similute to spiritual promised land, the New Jersualem, entered by faith.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
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Amen Rocky!
The Scriptures of full of this allegory. The called and the chosen. The lost and found. The goats and the sheep. The left and the right! Those who receive a reward and those who receive lashings.
It will all be Spiritual in the end of the flesh and carnal mind and if my posts are a bit too hot to handle at times please forgive me!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Jason
First off, if God did not say it then it is Heresy.
Revelations 20 : 5 is NOT in the oldest manuscripts. Why keep considering it as if it is Gods word? It is NOT Gods word!
Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ. What is so difficult?
In Rom 11:17 Paul tells of the Abrahamic covenant as a root out of which fleshly Israel grew naturally and which the Gentiles were grafted in after the natural branches were cut off. They were cut off because of disbelief and rejection of the truth and the Messiah who came to them and they knew Him not. So there you have the two types. The earthly, human and the heavenly spiritual that constitutes two phases of the kingdom.
The scriptures tell us that in order of development it was first the natural, earthly and then afterward the heavenly as in first from corruption or Adam and then conformed into Christ the second Adam. During the time of Abraham, the promise to him was earthly: it related to the land and this promise has not yet been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the still higher heavenly promises concerning Christ are fulfilled that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:13,39,40.
Also consider that they shall inherit the earth. Jesus said it. Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said that too. Is this not the two phases? Well I believe it is.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Okay,
In Romans 11:17, talking about the branches, what does this have anything to do with a so-called physical resurrection? That is definetly not a verse that is in support of that doctrine, as it is not even referring to the resurrection.
Now, let's look at Revelation:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
We omit that part of the verse. Then:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Still expounding from vs. 4. Then:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
After the 1000 years, the devil is thrown into the lake. Then:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne [From Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired] , and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mind you, we are ommiting a big section in verse 5, and as we move down in order of the chapter, it's no wonder why that was in there, even if it wasn't part of the manuscript. The dead aren't judged in the great white throne until AFTER the 1000 years. This is just the order of the chapter.
What makes this difficult is the order of the chapter.
When you said:
Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ.
This kind of makes sense to me. Does this mean that they are raised in a spiritual(not physical) body, and then after the 1000 years, they are then placed before the great white throne? In other words:
There is the 1000 year judgment which is done by the Elect, and then there is the great white throne judgement in which God saves them?
peace to you
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To add one more thing. If we do omit that part of vs. 5, we are just missing the fact that they are not raised until after the thousand years. Meaning that they were raised before the 1000 years were up, and were not at the GWT until after the 1000 years. They are still judged, just not raised, because they were already raised.
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Hello Jason
I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?
For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.
Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Jason
I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?
For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.
Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
I see where you're coming from. The reason that I have trouble with the dead being raised physical is because there is no Scripture that I can find to support it. This is what I see:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
moving on:
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up[all of the dead]? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead[the resurrection of ALL the dead; "as in Adam ALL die"]. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
I believe that the second death occurs after this resurrection for those that are not the elect. The second death occuring after they are raised in incorruption. I see nothing at all in the Scripture that says anything contrary.
In Christ,
Jason
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Hello Jason
I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?
For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.
Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body.
Otherwise, we in the flesh wouldn't have to die physically to be raised spiritual.
Unless, resurrection has nothing to do with death of the physical body, and it is all spiritual.
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Hello Jason
You say : I believe that the second death occurs after this resurrection for those that are not the elect. The second death occurring after they are raised in incorruption. I see nothing at all in the Scripture that says anything contrary.
We are in like mind on that point. To add Jesus cautions us to Luke 21 : 36 ...pray that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things taken together that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.
Christ is talking here about what is going to happen in the days of vengeance until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. He says there will be great fear and dread of the things that are coming on the world and THEN they will see the Son of Man coming. Christ says that these things will BEGIN to occur and when they do we should LOOK UP. For me that means look above the worldly cares and fears in the world and lay our burdens down.
Rocky you say that : For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again
Okay, so where did you get that conclusion? The scriptures say those who are alive at the return of Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. So? Don't you think that is what can happen for them who are to be raised and changed in the LOF? Perhaps not so much in a twinkling of an eye though ;D :D
1 Cor 15 : 22 For just as because of their union of nature in Adam all people ALL PEOPLE....DIE...so also by virtue of their union of nature shall all in Christ be made alive. 23 BUT EACH in his own rank and turn.
....52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet call, For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable...IMPERISHABLE...free and immune from decay and we shall be CHANGED....TRANSFORMED... 8)
Peace be to you
Arcturus
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Hello Jason
I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?
For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.
Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body.
Otherwise, we in the flesh wouldn't have to die physically to be raised spiritual.
Unless, resurrection has nothing to do with death of the physical body, and it is all spiritual.
Me too ;)
I see NOTHING in the Scripture that says anything about a resurrection of physical bodies. I only hear these things from people. It would be another "transformation." It would be:
1. Elect risen incorruptible. (scriptural)
2. Non elect raised corruptible(physical). (unscriptural)
3. After the non elect are raised 'corruptible,' they would die again. (first part unscriptural, second scriptural)
4. By now we are way off.
God bless
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In chapter 15 of Cor. who is Paul speaking to?
1Co 15:1 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;
So what is being said in this chapter is applied to the brothers/elect only. That is who he is explaining things to.
You gave those verses in the middle of that chapter, but there he is still talking to the brothers.
And he ends that chapter speaking to the brothers, he is telling them about their resurrection, the first resurrection. That word brothers can not be discounted.
1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
v. 52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 58 So that, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Okay Jason
So you agree that they, the non-elect die again, the second death, but not that they are raised corruptable. How do you figure that? You say the non-elect are not raised "corruptible"...YES you said it not me! Quote : "After the non elect are raised 'corruptible'....first part unscriptural....." unquote...So do you think the non-elect have no corruption that has to die? ...so what is going to die in the second scriptural death according to you: What is it that has to die and has to be defeated under the rule of Christ if not corruption and corruptible flesh? What then? Do you perhaps believe that the person is the flesh body. We are not our bodies but that which are in our bodies. The body of flesh carnality of mind has to die. It is the chaff as has been clarified by Joe via Ray Smith.
I believe the tares will perish. Then God will remake them through the LOF. They will perish in the second death and be remade through the correction process of rebirth. The elect will help Christ administer this Government to this end don't the scriptures say? ALL will be saved...but not in the same time or the same way!
You say : 3. After the non elect are raised 'corruptible,' they would die again. (first part unscriptural, second scriptural)
Are you confusing the issues here to try to get to something that doesn't exist? Either we believe God or we don't. He says what is going to happen and HE is not way off but false teaching can certainly be way out! :D
That is all I am going to say on this matter for this time being.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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In chapter 15 of Cor. who is Paul speaking to?
1Co 15:1 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;
So what is being said in this chapter is applied to the brothers/elect only. That is who he is explaining things to.
You gave those verses in the middle of that chapter, but there he is still talking to the brothers.
And he ends that chapter speaking to the brothers, he is telling them about their resurrection, the first resurrection. That word brothers can not be discounted.
1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
v. 52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 58 So that, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Though this chapter IS directed to the brothers, or the Elect, are we to say that this verse is applied ONLY to the Elect:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Though it is directed to the Elect, Paul is still expounding on the resurrection. The ONLY resurrection. This is the same type of logic that someone else uses to justify the wrath of God abiding on the Elect. This is not Scriptural. There is no where that I see of another "type" of resurrection other than incorruptible, for ALL of the dead.
Love to you,
Jason
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Okay Jason
So you agree that they, the non-elect die again, the second death, but not that they are raised corruptable. How do you figure that? You say the non-elect are not raised "corruptible"...YES you said it not me! Quote : "After the non elect are raised 'corruptible'....first part unscriptural....." unquote...So do you think the non-elect have no corruption that has to die? ...so what is going to die in the second scriptural death according to you: What is it that has to die and has to be defeated under the rule of Christ if not corruption and corruptible flesh? What then? Do you perhaps believe that the person is the flesh body. We are not our bodies but that which are in our bodies. The body of flesh carnality of mind has to die. It is the chaff as has been clarified by Joe via Ray Smith.
I believe the tares will perish. Then God will remake them through the LOF. They will perish in the second death and be remade through the correction process of rebirth. The elect will help Christ administer this Government to this end don't the scriptures say? ALL will be saved...but not in the same time or the same way!
You say : 3. After the non elect are raised 'corruptible,' they would die again. (first part unscriptural, second scriptural)
Are you confusing the issues here to try to get to something that doesn't exist? Either we believe God or we don't. He says what is going to happen and HE is not way off but false teaching can certainly be way out! :D
That is all I am going to say on this matter for this time being.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Okay Arcturus,
Bottom line: There is NO Scripture that says anything about a physical, corruptible resurrection.
Do you agree, or disagree?
We must define something here. We must define what the lake of fire is for. Here is a question, because I purify something, does that mean that I corrupt it? Not neccessarily. If I purify silver, it is NOT corrupted, but it is purified. Does this make sense?
I see that you have to add to the Scripture to support a doctrine of a physical, corruptible resurrection. Because something is purified, does not mean it is corrupted. Until I see 2 Scriptures to support another kind of resurrection, I see only an uncorruptible one.
This is almost getting ridiculous. Not one verse that says anything about a physical resurrection.
Love to you,
Jason
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I don't know if this helps, but this is why i earlier said i see the resurrection as a process. I see those in the LOF as being raised incorruptible, a process. Not linear.
I believe there is only one resurrection, and that is Jesus Christ. He is the resurrection. Two different times they occur, but only one resurrection.
I see the resurrection to judgment (non elect) a process that leads to incorruptible too.
But I agree Jason, there is no good scripture to support the non elect are raised into a physical body, spirit (equalling a soul) again. But we can trust scripture that however God does it, the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Thesting of sin is death. The strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:56 The sting of sin is death; and the strength of sin is the law.
Somethting i find interesting too is this:
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Why referring to "it" rather than they?
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Great point Rocky. I think that the word it would be referring to the body, as a general term.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up[referring to ALL of the dead, that die in Adam]? and with what body do they[all of the dead that die in Adam] come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it[the physical body is the first death] die:
- Jason
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I just want to take time to thank the moderators and all who have participated on this thread for bearing with me as I ask questions and outline the things I'm going through to understand God's awesome plan.
I have often been worried of stepping over the line here at this forum by bringing in my thoughts and questions; but I believe this thread is a good example of how we can explore without being reprimanded. Thank you all.
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I just want to take time to thank the moderators and all who have participated on this thread for bearing with me as I ask questions and outline the things I'm going through to understand God's awesome plan.
I have often been worried of stepping over the line here at this forum by bringing in my thoughts and questions; but I believe this thread is a good example of how we can explore without being reprimanded. Thank you all.
I also have to agree with you. I too am sometimes concerned about stepping over the line.
If anyone has felt that I went over the line, I apologize. I know how I can be sometimes. We are all brothers and sisters here, and I know that we all share a love for the truth.
Thanks everyone!
with love,
Jason
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Well, I guess this is not going to be something that is made clear to us yet.
It is my opinion that I Cor. is speaking to the brothers/elect and that is who Paul says will inherit incorruption in the kingdom.
1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Paul also speaks of running a race, and that only those who win receive an incorruptible crown.
1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
v. 25 And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.
Here in Romans Paul tell about God's judgment and every man must give account. There are those that recieve immortality/incorruption, and those that receive wrath and fury.
Rom 2:5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
v. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
v. 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
v. 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Here in Eze. I think it is speaking of the resurrection of the dead. It says nothing here about an incorruptible body, but appears to be raised to flesh.
Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones.
v. 2 And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
v. 3 And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, thou knowest."
v. 4 Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
v. 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
v. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD."
v. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
v. 8 And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them.
v. 9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."
v. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great host.
v. 11 Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
v. 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you home into the land of Israel.
v. 13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
v. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it, says the LORD."
I am not trying to fit this to what I believe or what anybody else believes, but what is in the scripture. I am ready to change whatever I think to get inline with what the scripture says.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body.
Hi Rocky,
I don't know if this has been addressed already as I have not had the time to read this entire thread (it's so long!!), but I wanted to add this before I forget. If the wicked are being resurrected into physical bodies, I do see how it is possible that they would not have to die again and be resurrected again into a spiritual body because of this scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ESV
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...
There are those who will not be dead when Christ returns and they are "changed" on the spot....so my reasoning is that God is able to accomplish this with the wicked after they've been resurrected into physical flesh again, gone through the process of refinement and then changed to spiritual. The wicked need to "die" to their carnal self, but I don't think this means that they physically need to die and be buried and then raised through resurrection...they can simply be "changed" by the limitless power of God. That's how I would understand it, that is. ;)
Great stuff brought out in this thread, I need to find the time to go through it in detail!
Peace,
Diana
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For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body.
Hi Rocky,
I don't know if this has been addressed already as I have not had the time to read this entire thread (it's so long!!), but I wanted to add this before I forget. If the wicked are being resurrected into physical bodies, I do see how it is possible that they would not have to die again and be resurrected again into a spiritual body because of this scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ESV
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...
There are those who will not be dead when Christ returns and they are "changed" on the spot....so my reasoning is that God is able to accomplish this with the wicked after they've been resurrected into physical flesh again, gone through the process of refinement and then changed to spiritual. The wicked need to "die" to their carnal self, but I don't think this means that they physically need to die and be buried and then raised through resurrection...they can simply be "changed" by the limitless power of God. That's how I would understand it, that is. ;)
Great stuff brought out in this thread, I need to find the time to go through it in detail!
Peace,
Diana
Hi Diana, the way i see it is at the twinkling of an eye, when those alive are changed, is at the resurrection. So if those people who are made physically alive again (resurrected to judgment) are made alive (spirit) in the twinkling of an eye, by the power of God, then they would be resurrected again. I don't see where there is two resurrections for the non elect (in scripture). Unless, we can assume that "second death", means death of death, which is really LIFE, which is the same as resurrection?? hmm, what ya think?
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The death of death is Life....I love that!
I don't know if this has already been mentioned but at the conference a sweet sister from K'zoo told me that the splitting of the tares/wheat, wolves/sheep, whatever good/evil thing its saying., is this....in US. Separating the tares and wheat in us!!
Whew!! I probably had read it on BT but it didn't hit me till then.
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The death of death is Life....I love that!
I don't know if this has already been mentioned but at the conference a sweet sister from K'zoo told me that the splitting of the tares/wheat, wolves/sheep, whatever good/evil thing its saying., is this....in US. Separating the tares and wheat in us!!
Whew!! I probably had read it on BT but it didn't hit me till then.
It was mentioned on this thread...thanks anyway :) You may want to read the replies about it. I believe that they are on page 7, or maybe on 6 of this topic. There was an email posted that Joe sent to Ray, and Ray's response about it.
God bless,
Jason
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Thanks Jason. I will check it out!!!
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Hi rocky,
So if those people who are made physically alive again (resurrected to judgment) are made alive (spirit) in the twinkling of an eye, by the power of God, then they would be resurrected again. I don't see where there is two resurrections for the non elect (in scripture). Unless, we can assume that "second death", means death of death, which is really LIFE, which is the same as resurrection?? hmm, what ya think?
I was looking at your reply, it seems to me that it is the resurrection part where we may be differing.
I am thinking that a 'resurrection' is only when the physically dead are raised back to physical life.
Christ was referred to as 'the Resurrection' because He was raised.
Those who join Christ at His return that are alive, are changed not resurrected.
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
This is referred to as the first resurrection because so many will be raised, just a relative hand full will be changed. But those changed are considered a part of the first resurrection, because they will join those raise to meet Christ.
The vast majority of mankind will be resurrected, that's why it is called the resurrection of the dead.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
In John where it speaks of the resurrection, and it's those in the grave.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
v. 29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
It will be a new thing that those alive at Christ's return will experience, being changed. They do not experience resurrection from the dead, but life immortal. But that does not mean it won't be the way it is from then on. Death will be cast into the Lake of fire, no one will physically die from then on.
Rev 20:14 And, death and hades, were cast into the lake of fire. This, is, the second death—the lake of fire. (Rotherham)
Hope you understand what I'm trying to say here :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Wow Kat, i'll have to think on that. I think i disagree, because it seems to put all the emphasis on physical death in regards to resurrection.
But I'm not sure to be honest.
Got me thinking about this verse:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
This to me is the Resurrection.
and this
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Since we know that some will not physically die, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye, it seems to me that resurrection does not need to involve physical death. But if i hear you correctly, your saying this is not a resurrection, because they never physically died.
So if all die, it seems to me that it is not talking about physical death.
I feel like i'm talkng in circles now. Maybe others can jump in and help.
Sorry Kat if I am not understanding your post.
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This tread is somewhat at length, however, there is a question (or two…) that I might ask - only for thought:
How does Revelation, chapter 21 (verses 11-17) fit in with the Resurrection, and Judgment? Also, with regards to the inhabitants who are (being) taught Righteousness?
(11) He that is unjust…he that is filthy…he that is righteous…and he that is holy…
(12) And, behold, I come quickly…my reward is with me to give every man according
as his work shall be.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the
Tree of Life…and may enter in through the gates, into the city (New Jerusalem?).
(15) For without (the city) are dogs…sorcerers…whoremongers…murderers…idolaters
And whoever loves to make a lie.
(17) And the Spirit and the Bride (of Christ), say "come"…And, let him (them) that
hear, say "come"…And, let him (them) that thirst, "come"…And, whosoever
will…let him take the water of life freely.
The Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ - be with you (US)!
- Jer
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Hi Rocky,
These things that we are trying to understand are not easy! I've learned a lot in this thread, but I've also been confused a lot in this thread. It's like a roller coaster ride...you think you understand something and then someone brings ups a question or thought and it mixes things up. This is all good of course, because it keeps us searching....
Having said that, I may be confusing the issue more by my added thoughts.... ??? (sorry :))
Rocky,
You bring up the scripture:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
I've often wondered about this scripture too, because if man dies once, then how can there be a second death. And we also have these scriptures:
Jude 1:11-13 ESV
11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion.
12 These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Kat, do you know if Ray speaks about this anywhere....I thought he did somewhere and for the life of me I just can't remember.
Anyways, I had come to think that because "it is appointed on to man once to die", that the "second" death was really not "another" death, but rather the same death that was already experienced by those in the first resurrection. And I'm thinking this is a spiritual death, happening in the invisible realm....like dying to the old carnal man.
The second death then, could be called such because it refers to those in the "second" resurrection. It's the same death, it's just that those who are resurrected haven't died this death yet. They've died physically, but so what. The physical means nothing (the flesh profits nothing). It seems to me that spiritually dying is of number one importance.
Once this death has occurred (whether you've physically died or not) then God can change you (or beget/birth you into the spirit) in the twinkling of an eye". Thus you are now a spiritual being, and the scripture: "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" is fulfilled.
Isn't flesh and blood a spiritual symbol for the carnal mind? Surely Satan has a carnal mind, but he is not flesh and blood, he is a spiritual being. So it is possible to be a spiritual being and be carnal. Satan must also, I'm assuming, die the spiritual death, and be changed into something new....the change to me, is the carnal heart (whether in physical flesh and blood, or spirit flesh and blood) being replaced with a spiritual heart/mind of God.
So Rocky, I think I'm heading along the same lines as you are when you say:
So if all die, it seems to me that it is not talking about physical death.
I looked at Strong's definition of the Greek word for "resurrection":
a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
I know that Strong's is not always correct in his definitions, but maybe he is here??
May God give us eyes to see in His perfect time.
Peace and may God bless our studies,
Diana
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Thats it I'm outa here...8 pages of confusion is more then this bear can bear.....I'm off to read the BT website.......I feel a lot less lost there !! ;D :o :D ;D :o :D
God loves you all.......we'll all understand it when He wants us to. So I'll shrug my shoulders and wait.
Love to all
John9362
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Kat nailed it down.
Don't split atoms then there is only energy and that's a realm of understanding not for our minds yet.
Keep it simple and I believe Kat did that with scripture.
Peace and Wisdom
Randy
8)
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.....Surely Satan has a carnal mind, but he is not flesh and blood, he is a spiritual being. So it is possible to be a spiritual being and be carnal.
Peace and may God bless our studies,
Diana
That's a good point. The part i've struggled with this thought, is that I keep going back to a definition of a "soul", which is where to me our carnal mind comes from.
But maybe we can be resurrected a carnal spirit, with a carnal mind.
Something to think about, satan has a diet, it's dust (thinking this means humans, made from the dust)
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
If there is no "dust" to eat (all spiritually carnal now), seems to me satan will starve.
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Sounds like from a couple of posts that this thread is just getting too confusing and too long.
So I'll back out for now, and leave us all with what we do know.
God is LOVE
God is Sovereign
God has a plan to bring all into his presence
God is working out that plan, and we are a part of it.
Through judgment (death to life), we are saved.
Christ didn't die so we don't have to, he died to show us the way to LIFE.
Jesus Christ is the RESURRECTION, He is LIFE.
Praise God, He is in control of the plan and not us.
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Hi Hi rocky and Diana,
Well I'm just not very good at explaining these things. Diana you really have it figured out pretty good. I do not think Ray has directly wrote on this subject anywhere.
I won't to take another shot at this scripture, rocky :)
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
All of humanity have and will die a physical death, as Adam did. This is the first death that all face, it is a physical death. All these people will be resurrected from this physical death, and this encludes all the people that ever lived up until Christ's return. Even all those prophets of old and David and John the Baptist, all died a physical death, and all these must yet die a second death to the carnal mind, this is a spiritual death.
Now since Christ was raised and become the Firstfurit, He gives His Holy Spirit to those that are chosen. Now these few die spiritually, but most have to still die physically, because Christ has not come yet. God has given this physical body just so many years, then it must die. All those who were faithful, still had to die a physical death, because their body died, one way or another, before Christ returned.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
I believe this scripture is speaking of that spiritual death that all, no exception, must go through to have spiritual life in Christ. And we are all judged by the spiritual fire, when we are symbolicly buried with Christ, and must learn to live anew in the spirit, few now, most later.
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
But just a few are going through this now, the vast majority will go through this spiritual death after they have physically died and are physically resurrected.
Now those living with the Holy Spirit in them at Christ's return, do not die physically, why? They lived into the age when Christ returns and rules, and there will be no more physical death.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v.4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
I believe this is physical death He is talking about, and so those very few chose and faithful who are physically alive at His return, can not physically die.
When Christ returns it will be a new heaven and new earth, there will be no more physical death. So all who die there after, it will be a spiritual death.
Hi jER,
In Rev. 21, this is when Christ is ruling and His judgment has come. All have been resurrected to physical life and now must go throught purging by God's spiritual fire, which is the second death. This is those in verse 8, they are being purged by Christ and the saints that are reigning with Him, they are the Lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Once these have been purified and have reach spiritual maturity, then their name will be written in the Book of Life They will be brought into the kingdom, it does not require another death at this point, but just to be changed. This we can see happening at the end of Rev. 21.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
v. 25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
v. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
v. 27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat