bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on March 10, 2010, 04:30:48 PM
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I love it that Ray says, repentance is a MAJOR door to understanding.
There is no haughty arrogance in that benefit of receiving repentance through the goodness of God.
Ray explains this so eloquently that even a small child would see it and understand it. It is "grown ups" :D that have trouble getting to grips with basic truths of reason and of Spirit.
That we repent in increments as Ray explains – is also wonderful in that God does not just zap any of us but tenderly, gently as we are able, God brings us changes we need to understand Him and see Him for who He really is.
Until we repent we are dead in our sins. So that major door to understanding may be also the door through which we meet the Resurrection to Life….our life in Christ. 8)
Ref : L. Ray Smith Transcript REPENTANCE
Arc
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Deb
I am going to read "Repentence' now.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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Great Charles O! ;D
I have just seen another thing. Ray describes maturity! 8)
It really is a compliment to see the definition that I believe is fitting this Forum more and more each day!
What speaks to you?
Arc
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Hi Arc,
I can see that the forum is really maturing too and I think that being here together has helped us tremendously. We are developing into a kind of close knit family, not only are we studying together that I think accelerates the learning process, but also we have comfort and encouragement from each other.
God has provided this place for His people so that we can be taken care of and He is using each of us one way or another to accomplish that. So those that have been here for a while and have gained some maturity, can help the new ones that come here after being beaten down by the world/Babylon. It's such a blessing to be here and to realize and see how He has brought all of this about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Arc,
Growth is never ending and it is from the teachings of Ray Smith and this forum that my greatest growth has come. A special thanks to you and Kathy who have contributed so much to my growth in HIM who is everything.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Until we repent we are dead in our sins. So that major door to understanding may be also the door through which we meet the Resurrection to Life….our life in Christ.
Arc
Repent with eyes wide open.
A turning away of ones sinful ways and knowing that the Word is all powerful in our desire to do what is right is such a blessing when our loving Lord explains the importance of such Spiritual Truths.The following verse just slammed me to the ground when my eyes and ears were opened to these all so important Spiritual Truths.
Simple,elegant, and to the point.
Amen.
WNT
Rom 2:1 You are therefore without excuse, O man, whoever you are who sit in judgement upon others. For when you pass judgement on your fellow man, you condemn yourself; for you who sit in judgement upon others are guilty of the same misdeeds;
Rom 2:2 and we know that God's judgement against those who commit such sins is in accordance with the truth. Rom 2:3 And you who pronounce judgement upon those who do such things although your own conduct is the same as theirs--do you imagine that you yourself will escape unpunished when God judges?
Rom 2:4 Or is it that you think slightingly of His infinite goodness, forbearance and patience, unaware that the goodness of God is gently drawing you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 The fact is that in the stubbornness of your impenitent heart you are treasuring up against yourself anger on the day of Anger--the day when the righteousness of God's judgements will stand revealed.
Rom 2:6 TO EACH MAN HE WILL MAKE AN AWARD CORRESPONDING TO HIS ACTIONS;
Rom 2:7 to those on the one hand who, by lives of persistent right-doing, are striving for glory, honour and immortality, the Life of the Ages;
Rom 2:8 while on the other hand upon the self-willed who disobey the truth and obey unrighteousness will fall anger and fury, affliction and awful distress,
Rom 2:9 coming upon the soul of every man and woman who deliberately does wrong--upon the Jew first, and then upon the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 whereas glory, honour and peace will be given to every one who does what is good and right--to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.
Rom 2:11 For God pays no attention to this world's distinctions.
Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who have sinned whilst living under the Law, will be judged by the Law.
Rom 2:13 It is not those that merely hear the Law read who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those that obey the Law who will be pronounced righteous.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who have no Law obey by natural instinct the commands of the Law, they, without having a Law, are a Law to themselves;
Rom 2:15 since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence--
Rom 2:16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of men's lives by Jesus Christ, as declared in the Good News as I have taught it.
Rom 2:17 And since you claim the name of Jew, and find rest and satisfaction in the Law, and make your boast in God,
Rom 2:18 and know the supreme will, and can test things that differ--being a man who receives instruction from the Law--
Rom 2:19 and have persuaded yourself that, as for you, you are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 a schoolmaster for the dull and ignorant, a teacher of the young, because in the Law you possess an outline of real knowledge and an outline of the truth:
Rom 2:21 you then who teach your fellow man, do you refuse to teach yourself? You who cry out against stealing, are you yourself a thief?
Rom 2:22 You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who loathe idols, do you plunder their temples?
Rom 2:23 You who make your boast in the Law, do you offend against its commands and so dishonour God?
Rom 2:24 FOR THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILE NATIONS BECAUSE OF YOU, as Holy Writ declares.
Rom 2:25 Circumcision does indeed profit, if you obey the Law; but if you are a Law-breaker, the fact that you have been circumcised counts for nothing.
Rom 2:26 In the same way if an uncircumcised man pays attention to the just requirements of the Law, shall not his lack of circumcision be overlooked, and,
Rom 2:27 although he is a Gentile by birth, if he scrupulously obeys the Law, shall he not sit in judgement upon you who, possessing, as you do, a written Law and circumcision, are yet a Law-breaker?
Rom 2:28 For the true Jew is not the man who is simply a Jew outwardly, and true circumcision is not that which is outward and bodily.
Rom 2:29 But the true Jew is one inwardly, and true circumcision is heart-circumcision--not literal, but spiritual; and such people receive praise not from men, but from God.
Peace...Mark
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I can see that the forum is really maturing
It has been a real joy being here Kat and also seeing the many challenges we have together encountered that have sharpened our discernment and appreciations for the Truth. Iron sharpening iron! :)
it is from the teachings of Ray Smith and this forum that my greatest growth has come
I believe every one of us here, who has been here and is yet to join, can affirm what you have pointed out Phil3:10 Our liberty, our freedom and our joy to have stepped out of darkness into the Light of Christ through His Heart and Mind reaching out to each of us here, through our Ray Smith.
Thank you for your acknowledgement of Kathy and I. Blessed are you Phil 3:10 as you too are here in the Name of the Lord.
Repent with eyes wide open.
Excellent Marky Mark! Who we have been looking for has been here all along. We belong with HIM.
Our praise is with, from and of Him.
Arc
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Yes, yes, YES! And thank you Mark, and Mark, did you write that verse in there???? Just kidding, but I just had not seen verse 4 stuck in there between 3 and 5 so bright and lit up!
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This discussion has caused me to become more sensitised to when I repent.
48 hours ago, I was Blessed to repent of something impossible for me to have identified needing repentance! It filled me with a deeper appreciation for Mercy and Pity.
When did any of you last notice that you repented of something poignant?
Arc
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My 2 cents: Unless we are dragged to Repent, we cannot even begin to understand what it entails. It took many readings and listening to Ray's Repentance Papers and Audio to understand how really desperate and wretched every one of us is(ME). My o'man is still very angry at me for listening to the then small voice, which now has taken the dominant position in what life (By Christ In Me) i live. Until we really understand Repentance and then start coming to Repentance; all we are doing; is just running in place, warming up for the race. Here are my Scriptures that now rings out always:
Mat 6:27-34 (CLV)
27 "Now who of you by worrying is able to add on to his stature one cubit?
28 And why are you worrying about apparel? Study the anemones of the field, how they are growing. Not toiling are they, nor yet are they spinning.
29 Yet I am saying to you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed as one of these.
30 Now if the grass of the field, which is today, and tomorrow is cast into the stove, God thus is garbing; not much rather you, scant of faith?
31 "You, then, should not be worrying, saying, 'What may we be eating?' or 'What may we be drinking?' or 'With what may we be clothed?'
32 For for all these the nations are seeking. For aware is your heavenly Father that you need all of these.
33 Yet seek first the kingdom and its righteousness, and these all shall be added to you.
34 You should not, then, be worrying about the morrow, for the morrow will be worrying of itself. Sufficient for the day is its own evil.
Php 2:1-13 (JB PHILLIPS NT)
Php 2:1 1-4 Now if your experience of Christ's encouragement and love means anything to you, if you have known something of the fellowship of his Spirit, and all that it means in kindness and deep sympathy, do make my best hope for you come true! Live together in harmony, live together in love, as though you had only one mind and one spirit between you. Never act from motives of rivalry or personal vanity, but in humility think more of each other than you do of yourselves. None of you should think only of his own affairs, but should learn to see things from other people's point of view.
Php 2:5 5-11 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his prerogatives as God's equal, but stripped himself of all privilege by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born as mortal man. And, having become man, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, even to the extent of dying, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal. That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus "every knee shall bow", whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, "every tongue shall confess" that Jesus Christ" is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This is one of the few Translations that i think got this right.
Php 2:12 12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
george. ;D
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'With what may we be clothed?'
Garments of praise, apparel of gratitude and rich cloaks of adoration for our God in reverential appreciation that He has caused everything and is responsible for all of us.
learn to see things from other people's point of view
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Kat has often mentioned in the welcome section of new members here in the Forum that there are many different views that are united in our diversity in the Mind of Christ. Well, not in so many words Kat, if you read this, but this is what I think you illustrate when you identify the like-mindedness of the membership here. :)
work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility.
We can comprehend, much better than this translation, with the knowledge of God shown to us through the expounded Word of God by Ray, to replace the word RESPONSIBLE with ACCOUNTABLE….
For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve His purpose.
I love that translation that shows the Sovereignty of God and the absence of free will!
YES God has given us a proper, humble and sober sense of awe and ACCOUNTABILITY knowing what we know now! Amazing isn’t it !
Thank you for posting the Scriptures you were guided to share with us George.
Arc
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work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility.
We can comprehend, much better than this translation, with the knowledge of God shown to us through the expounded Word of God by Ray, to replace the word RESPONSIBLE with ACCOUNTABLE….
The emphasis here, was on (awe and responsibility) (vs fear and trembling), rather than who is ultimately responsible.
Actually in this case, the word responsibility is quite correct, we are responsible to account for how the work done in and to us, is manifested, by shining the light and not hiding it under a barrel.
That may be a bit simplified, but that is what Grace through Faith Is teaching us to be; Responsible children of GOD THE FATHER And our Lord Jesus Christ. When we are totally regenerated, then we are to be in the image of (just like) our Creator; process continuing currently.
Php 2:12 12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility (Not fear and trembling). For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
george ;D.
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Ray's article on " Repentance & Guilty of ALL " from the 2005 Nashville conference is awsome. To think how many times in my life what could have happend had God removed his Hedge or Frame from around me is very humbling and scary.
Love in Christ
Longhorn
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This is one of the few Translations that i think got this right.
Php 2:12 12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
I really like that translation! I know it gives away my logistics.... But Glory! Aint God good!!!
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You know, if the forum were run any differently this fellowship wouldn't work but because of the discipline here it does. At first I thought you guys were somewhat fanatic but I get it now and it has had for lack of a better word a 'sobering' effect on me. There was a lack of integrity in myself concerning God and I didn't know what it was. My limited knowledge was my belief, there wasn't any growth. My soul and spirit by the Word of God and the teaching of it here are now fusing. Still have a ways to go though. My thanks to God and all of you! judy
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Hi Arc,
I can see that the forum is really maturing too and I think that being here together has helped us tremendously. We are developing into a kind of close knit family, not only are we studying together that I think accelerates the learning process, but also we have comfort and encouragement from each other.
God has provided this place for His people so that we can be taken care of and He is using each of us one way or another to accomplish that. So those that have been here for a while and have gained some maturity, can help the new ones that come here after being beaten down by the world/Babylon. It's such a blessing to be here and to realize and see how He has brought all of this about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Beautifully put Kat. Perfectly put! Of course I’m new here but I feel in my spirit that you are completely right on. I feel your sincerity here! It is like an oasis in a very dry desert!
cp
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to think how many times in my life what could have happend had God removed his Hedge or Frame from around me is very humbling and scary.
I was thinking the same thing yesterday Longhorn!
Most of the world’s assurances, sell us a false sense of security, that are for sale which we have to pay for like insurance, safety belts, tithes and vitamins.
A false peace of mind, doesn’t depend on God.
We cannot buy God’s protection.
Psa 119:117 Hold me up, and I shall be safe; and I will always have respect to Your Precepts.
Pro 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.
God’s protection is not for sale - so we can appreciate God so much more as you say, Longhorn, for that FRAME God has framed us in.
Yes micah7:9 I too enjoy that Scripture that shows us that God gives us the desire AND the ability to achieve His Purpose. There are TWO aspects to this. Desire and Ability. Both are God’s gifts to us
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God has you here for His wonderful Purpose Judy and it is great that He is showing you His Work as He trains you in His precepts.
Hi aqr
I expressed the comment that we are not responsible but accountable, with the following in mind. :)
GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS
A Sermon by:
James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by: L. Ray Smith
RESPONSIBILITY
Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.
We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.
Arc
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A Sermon by:
James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by: L. Ray Smith
RESPONSIBILITY
Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.
We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.[/color]
Arc
Hey Arc, this still blows my mind a bit. Can you explain why we are even accountable?
Do you see it as we will give an account of why we did as we did and God will know He was responsible for making us with weak hearts? Will our accounting of ourselves be an explanation to God on why we did as we did?
Is it like Adam and Eve who seemed to have to give an accounting for what they did…..she gave to me and I did eat…….or it was the serpent………?
God did seem to accept their accounts as factual which is clear by His response.
cp
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Can you explain why we are even accountable?
God MAKES us accountable.
If we were not accountable, then we would be as a robot. We are not robots.
God includes us in His work by extending to us accountability for our actions. This inclusion does not preclude God’s Work but depends on God’s Work within us. God will have ALL the Glory for His Work and one day we shall all see that if it were not for God, we could not have any part of the Glorious Work of God that is making us into His Image.
Our accountability is God’s way to include us in the Glorious finale when He will reward us for His Work. We shall come to see that all is of God and even those good works that God has ordained that we shall walk in, we shall see are His Works prepared before us. That God will give us the reward for these works that He prepares before us, is just the magnificence of God’s Love that is so vast it defies human logic.
How can God reward us for what He does? Make us accountable and see what God does.
Try to look at accountability not from the evil or painful consequence of mis-conduct, but from the every knee will bow, perspective and hold your breath as you see how Great our God is. 8)
That’s the best I can do for now. Let me know if you see something. :)
Arc
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Hi Claypot,
Here is an email response that Ray explains the accountability thing.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -----------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Chris:
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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Words mean things, some words mean many things, some really difficult words mean many more things on very different levels. I pulled these definitions from Synonyms.com to help bring some more depth of understanding what the words say, and could in mean in varying circumstances. If it was easy there would be no need for study, but it is not easy so sorry to say, we need to study more always.
Here is my counsel on this one; lighten up folks, we all learn at different speeds, GOD Is Not stamping out clones. The greatest thing about this life's journey is: All our different pathways converge at JESUS CHRIST The Righteous Savior And King Of Kings (currently in the making us
Synonyms for responsible
Similarity of adj responsible
3 senses of responsible
Sense 1:
responsible (vs. irresponsible)
accountable
answerable
amenable
liable
trustworthy
Also See: obligated#1; prudent#1; trustworthy#1, trusty#1
Sense 2:
responsible, responsible for(predicate)
causative (vs. noncausative)
Sense 3:
creditworthy, responsible
trustworthy (vs. untrustworthy), trusty
Joh 6:63 (MKJV)
It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
Read these Scriptures below with Christ admonition (The flesh profits nothing; the Words I Speak are Spirit and Life.)
Rom 14:1-23 (GW)
1 Welcome people who are weak in faith, but don't get into an argument over differences of opinion.
2 Some people believe that they can eat all kinds of food. Other people with weak faith believe that they can eat only vegetables.
3 People who eat all foods should not despise people who eat only vegetables. In the same way, the vegetarians should not criticize people who eat all foods, because God has accepted those people.
4 Who are you to criticize someone else's servant? The Lord will determine whether his servant has been successful. The servant will be successful because the Lord makes him successful.
5 One person decides that one day is holier than another. Another person decides that all days are the same. Every person must make his own decision.
6 When people observe a special day, they observe it to honor the Lord. When people eat all kinds of foods, they honor the Lord as they eat, since they give thanks to God. Vegetarians also honor the Lord when they eat, and they, too, give thanks to God.
7 It's clear that we don't live to honor ourselves, and we don't die to honor ourselves.
8 If we live, we honor the Lord, and if we die, we honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this reason Christ died and came back to life so that he would be the Lord of both the living and the dead.
10 Why do you criticize or despise other Christians? Everyone will stand in front of God to be judged.
11 Scripture says, "As certainly as I live, says the Lord, everyone will worship me, and everyone will praise God."
12 All of us will have to give an account of ourselves to God.
13 So let's stop criticizing each other. Instead, you should decide never to do anything that would make other Christians have doubts or lose their faith.
14 The Lord Jesus has given me the knowledge and conviction that no food is unacceptable in and of itself. But it is unacceptable to a person who thinks it is.
15 So if what you eat hurts another Christian, you are no longer living by love. Don't destroy anyone by what you eat. Christ died for that person.
16 Don't allow anyone to say that what you consider good is evil.
17 God's kingdom does not consist of what a person eats or drinks. Rather, God's kingdom consists of God's approval and peace, as well as the joy that the Holy Spirit gives.
18 The person who serves Christ with this in mind is pleasing to God and respected by people.
19 So let's pursue those things which bring peace and which are good for each other.
20 Don't ruin God's work because of what you eat. All food is acceptable, but it's wrong for a person to eat something if it causes someone else to have doubts.
21 The right thing to do is to avoid eating meat, drinking wine, or doing anything else that causes another Christian to have doubts.
22 So whatever you believe about these things, keep it between yourself and God. The person who does what he knows is right shouldn't feel guilty. He is blessed.
23 But if a person has doubts and still eats, he is condemned because he didn't act in faith. Anything that is not done in faith is sin.
george :).
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The greatest thing about this life's journey is: All our different pathways converge at JESUS CHRIST The Righteous Savior And King Of Kings (currently in the making
I thought this especially good, George. Thanks.
cp
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Thanks for the edification Kat! :)
This thread has gone right off the rails of the topic!
Repentance is the topic not accountability and responsibiltiy that could be a new thread.
As you were saying Longhorn :D ;D
Arc
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Folks,
I need to study these issues for my own understanding.
I hope that the thread will remain available to read even when enough has been written.
Indianabob
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I hope so too Indianabob.
I don't think this Thread has even started going anywhere yet :)
Maybe no one thinks repentance is necessary to understanding?
What did anyone understand after God with His Goodness brings us to repent. I know there are two very important scriptures that show the difference in worldly suffering and Godly suffering. I enjoy how Ray puts deep emphasis on Repentance and the way Christ showed the significance of it in being able to see the Truth. It is a very important subject with many ramifications in our being able to apply and understand the Truth.
Arc
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Hi Arc, very good topic.
I thought and prayed about it for a few days and re-read Ray's paper on repentance, and came up with these two Scriptures. Not sure if they are what you were referring to though.
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye (repent); and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
2Co 7:10 For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death.
This to me means first the goodness of God needs to lead us to repentance and quite sinning as much as is possible in this age, in this flesh, then and only then will we be able to help others and understand and live the Truth. When God makes us sorry, makes us feel guilty and ashamed for our sins, then can He begin to make us repent. He gets us to realize sinning is not ok. It does not happen quickly either, it seems to be a long and often painful process. Also to be thankful for all the grief and suffering He cause us to go through. Rather than be like the rest of the world who blames Him instead of understanding why suffering is important, to understand evil is meant to humble us. I believe part of the reason suffering is so important is like Ray says, its all about contrast. How will we know good unless we know evil? We will appreciate the good all the more. The "light suffering" cannot compare to the incredible glory He has in store for us. I even thought I read somewhere that Ray said that when we look back on this, we will wish we had suffered more. Dont get me wrong, I know suffering does not feel good right now, but it is what will produce many godly characters that God wants in us as sons and daughters. I dont thing He would have us go through what He hasnt gone through Himself. You have probably heard that "what does not kill you makes you stronger" but I think what is more true is what kills you is what will make you stronger. Dying to self is killing the carnal mind isnt it? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
I have personally noticed when I'm going through periods of sinfulness that I cant see the truth. Everything is confusing and cloudy and I end up not knowing what to believe. Pride, hate, resentment, jealousy and self pity take over and I find myself in a big mess. It is only when the goodness of God leads me to repentance, and I come out of these periods of sinfulness, is when I become humble again, and the Truth starts to become clear again.
I think only now am I beginning to understand what Ray meant when he said "I wanted to repent long before I did". I've often prayed, and cried and begged God to lead me to repentance, because I just cant do it on my own, and that can be very painful and frustrating. Usually I just give up asking, and after a while He leads me to repentance. It is a tormenting thing to deny self, to deny carnal desires, and then sometimes fail and have God show you how bad you were. This carnal mind wants to sin so bad, and if it was not for His Spirit I would be sinning as much as I want to without a conscious about it. It's getting to the point I do not trust myself anymore.
I dunno, maybe I'm off, but this is how it seems right now. Still a long way to go, God willing He will let me live long enough and be patient enough with me to teach me how to overcome the world and to put sin to death. All I can do is hope, pray and believe all will be ok no matter what happens. What choice do I have?
I hope I have made some sense. ??? If not, I tried. :-[
G.Driggs
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I dunno, maybe I'm off, but this is how it seems right now. Still a long way to go, God willing He will let me live long enough and be patient enough with me to teach me how to overcome the world and to put sin to death. All I can do is hope, pray and believe all will be ok no matter what happens. What choice do I have?
I hope I have made some sense. If not, I tried.
G.Driggs
Hi G.Driggs,
Makes perfect sense to me, keep on repenting brother, i do everyday and everytime God smacks me between the eyes with the attention stick.
Deb,
You are right, this is a topic that we cannot exhaust; while still in this tent of flesh.
I just put my stones away, and leave this Scripture as a reminder, to me, of why Repentance ???.
Joh 8:7 (GNB)
As they stood there asking him questions, he straightened up and said to them, "Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her."
george :o ::).
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Thank you for your contribution G Driggs.
I have personally noticed when I'm going through periods of sinfulness that I cant see the truth.
It is excellent that you are experiencing the connection between knowing and understanding the truth and the need to repent in order to do so. Ray puts this so clearly to us all through his own testimony in the Transcript. It is very important and so simple. A real find!
You mentioned the Scripture through which Ray gives insights regarding :
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye (repent); and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Did you catch the insight? :)
It is not that when we loose our beam in our eye, then we can see the mote. NO. Look at this again! It is awesome!
So you think your brother has a speck in his eye, he does not. He has a beam in his eye too. But you can’t see it with a beam in your eye too.L Ray Smith
That is so profound. Look again!
So you think YOUR BROTHER has a speck in his eye, he does NOT. HE HAS A BEAM IN HIS EYE TOO. But YOU can’t see it with a beam in YOUR EYE TOO.
It is so breathtakingly beautiful is it not?
Ray goes on to say, But you can’t judge him with a BEAM IN YOUR EYE, you can’t even see what his faults are, for crying out loud, you have so many yourself.
But this is what always got me.
Rom 2 :1 ‘……for you who judge practice the same things.”
This is just so exquisite don’t you think?
Hey aqr
It is good to put the stones away. :D
Did you know that the Scripture you posted is not in the oldest manuscripts and is considered spurious? John 8 1-11
Ray says : We are the Lake of Fire, we will be judging man and the angels. Don’t you think we aught to have some practice at doing that then? Don’t you think we should be learning to judge now?
Should we be throwing stones or trying to kill giants? Nope.
Some of the words Ray has said I have highlighted as follows As you judge,....... can mean to do good and to set right, it can also mean...... be bad....…there are always two possible sentences. Ref Repentance transcript.
That said, I do think judgment is really another topic for another thread. It is so vast!
So let's stick rather to this topic....The Door to understanding....what does it mean to you?
Arc