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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Lupac on March 28, 2010, 03:42:53 PM
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But may not be the one you expect. Ray has stated that sin is any mistake you make, if you mean to or not. So here's my question, Jesus fell down while carrying the cross to be crucified. According to what Ray said sin is, wouldn't that mean Jesus sinned because He fell down due to being weak from being tortured? I'm sorry if this is a shocking question, I'm just trying to understand. Thanks.
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Well, Bryant, the answer to that would be NO! Jesus was without sin, remember?
Sin is a missing of the mark..Jesus never missed the mark! If he hadn't fallen under the weight of the cross he would not have been human, which He was! If He hadn't been human, he couldn't have identified with us...If He hadn't been God, which He IS! He couldn't have saved us!! So NO, Jesus didn't sin by falling under the weight of the cross....that may not be the smartest answer you'll get, but it's mine!!
Kathy :)
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Hi Lupac,
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ---
Sin is a mistake (large or small), lawlessness, or falling short of the Glory of God.
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I think sin is 'a' mistake, but not all mistakes are sin. When we take a test and do not know the answer, it will be counted off for the mistake, but it is not a sin to miss a question on a test. Hope that helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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NO! Of course I wasn't saying Jesus sinned! Kat, thanks for your answer. What got me wondering is, I think Ray said if your trying to shoot an arrow into a bull's eye, and you miss, it's a sin because you "missed the mark". I don't believe that, but I think Ray said it. Anyone? But your answer helped.
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Lupac, find the quote and bring it here if you still need to. We can try to explain what Ray said. We can try to correct your misunderstanding of the subject. But you are asking us to explain or defend something that Ray did NOT say. How is a human supposed to do that? :D
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The definition of sin is not to rape little children and cut off their heads, that is not the definition of sin. That is only one ‘form’ of sin.
Sin means to miss the mark. So very technically, if you are having target practice at a target and you miss the bulls eye, because that’s what you were trying to hit, you sinned. You missed the mark. You didn’t do what you wanted to do, you missed. So any failure, any mistake is a sin. Now it doesn’t have to be a big sin. We all make mistakes, you know.
If we are peeling an apple and we cut ourselves, that is a sin. Now God is not going to strike you down with lightning out of heaven for that. But it is a sin and you have to suffer the consequences. Sometimes you sin and you don’t suffer a consequence, because you don’t know you sinned. It takes years sometimes to learn that you have sins you didn’t know about.
So although they would deny everything that I have said there, but if you nail them down on their doctrines they absolutely believe that God repents of His failures and His shortcomings, which are sins. Failures and shortcomings are sins.
They say, ‘well God doesn’t sin.’ But does He do things that don’t work out the way He wanted them to? They say, ‘yes.’ Well that’s a sin! It’s plain as that. You can play with words and games if you want to, but this is not that difficult. What we are studying today might be difficult, but some of the explanations I hope are not difficult.
Okay I think this is what you were referring to Lupac.
I can only say that as for the example you gave of Jesus stumbling when He was carrying the cross is that it was suppose to happen. Surely there is a reason for every single thing that He did whether we know what it is or not.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus fell seven times.
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Arc
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The definition of sin is not to rape little children and cut off their heads, that is not the definition of sin. That is only one ‘form’ of sin.
Sin means to miss the mark. So very technically, if you are having target practice at a target and you miss the bulls eye, because that’s what you were trying to hit, you sinned. You missed the mark. You didn’t do what you wanted to do, you missed. So any failure, any mistake is a sin. Now it doesn’t have to be a big sin. We all make mistakes, you know.
If we are peeling an apple and we cut ourselves, that is a sin. Now God is not going to strike you down with lightning out of heaven for that. But it is a sin and you have to suffer the consequences. Sometimes you sin and you don’t suffer a consequence, because you don’t know you sinned. It takes years sometimes to learn that you have sins you didn’t know about.
So although they would deny everything that I have said there, but if you nail them down on their doctrines they absolutely believe that God repents of His failures and His shortcomings, which are sins. Failures and shortcomings are sins.
They say, ‘well God doesn’t sin.’ But does He do things that don’t work out the way He wanted them to? They say, ‘yes.’ Well that’s a sin! It’s plain as that. You can play with words and games if you want to, but this is not that difficult. What we are studying today might be difficult, but some of the explanations I hope are not difficult.
Okay I think this is what you were referring to Lupac.
I can only say that as for the example you gave of Jesus stumbling when He was carrying the cross is that it was suppose to happen. Surely there is a reason for every single thing that He did whether we know what it is or not.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
That's it! That's the quote. Even if that was supposed to happen, He still fell. I'm sorry, but I can't believe a simple mistake is a sin.
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I love it when Arc replies. You just know it's going to be the real " Meat of the word " with some good old country gravy on the side.
Love in Christ
Longhorn
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Lupac, I do not want to try to explain this one, as I didn't do so well the first time I tried.
I would suggest that you email Ray L.RaySmith@comcast.net
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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You know, I just read the four gospel accounts, and I don't even think Jesus falling while carrying the cross is in the Bible. It just implied that He could not bear it, and so they got Simon to carry it. (Although in John it says Jesus carried it. ???)
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Now you got me wondering what the Scriptures say on this.
Matt 27:31 And after they had mocked Him, they took the robe off of Him and put His own clothing on Him and led Him away to crucify Him.
v. 32 And going out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They forced this one to carry His cross.
Mark 15:20 And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him and put His own clothes on Him and led Him out to crucify Him.
v. 21 And they made one who was passing by, Simon a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear His cross.
Luke 23:26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold on one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country. And they laid the cross on him, that he might carry it after Jesus.
John 19:17 And bearing His cross, He went out to a place called, The Place of a Skull (which is called in the Hebrew, Golgotha)
So the Scriptures do not even say that Jesus fall or anything. Interesting I had not even looked at this closely before.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yeah, it's so common in movies and in popular culture depicting that Jesus was struggling and falling with the cross. From the three gospels, it would seem that someone saw Him, and got Simon to carry Jesus' cross for Him, so that Jesus never carried it. But in John is says Jesus carried His own cross. I know that different information isn't a contradiction, but what do you think? (I'll post my thoughts a little later.)
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Very enlightening! Definitely.
Whether He had actually fallen or not isn't important... He still never sinned or missed the mark.
He suffered a tremendous amount of pain as any man would have...and still he never sinned....
Kathy :)
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Well aren't we all a little humiliated. LOL. I don't think this has happened quite so publicly since the 'immaculate conception' thread. Read ALL the words indeed. :-[
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I second that, Dave! :-[ Read ALL the words! never too late to learn that! Shutting up now....
Kathy ;)
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Insert Quote
I love it when Arc replies. You just know it's going to be the real " Meat of the word " with some good old country gravy on the side.
Sorry Longhorn
The meat was the Scripture I posted. The gravey was mud....appologies.
The Seven falls of Jesus as He carried His Cross is a false teaching out of Catholicism. A residual piece of rubbish from my Catholic up-bringing that is cleansed off me through this thread. :)
Arc
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I'll be the first to respond in that those who wanted to reply to this thread, I'm now humiliated.
None of the gospels even hint at such a stumble so why even assume it??? :-[
I feel ashamed of myself.......
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You don't have to be embarrassed, we all learned something new. I'm guessing they got Simon to carry His cross some of the way, but then made Jesus carry it up to the place He was crucified?
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It does serve as a very public reminder of why we are here. We're not here to entertain every piece of fluff that blows in on the breeze out of Babylon, but to affirm and hold to bible truths. "Let me be not ashamed" by doing that.
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AMEN Dave! Thank you! :D
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The Seven falls of Jesus as He carried His Cross is a false teaching out of Catholicism. A residual piece of rubbish from my Catholic up-bringing that is cleansed off me through this thread.
Arc
Being raised catholic also, this is just that Deb, garbage from a worldly church.
Even though the Scripture below may seem to be a contradiction upon first glance,they aren't. Ray teaches how certain people make contradictions out of something that really are not contradictions at all.In his rapture paper Ray explains how different events in the bible are covered by different scribes from their own vantage point and hence different variations upon the same theme.
If these verse were contradictions of the same event then one would have to believe that there was more than one crucifixion. I don't think so ;).
YLT
Mat 27:32 And coming forth, they found a man, a Cyrenian, by name Simon: him they impressed that he might bear his cross;
Mar 15:21 And they impress a certain one passing by--Simon, a Cyrenian, coming from the field, the father of Alexander and Rufus--that he may bear his cross,
Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, having taken hold on Simon, a certain Cyrenian, coming from the field, they put on him the cross, to bear it behind Jesus.
Joh 19:16 Then, therefore, he delivered him up to them, that he may be crucified, and they took Jesus and led him away,
Joh 19:17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha;
Peace...Mark
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I recognise what you are saying Mark ;)
Thank you. :)
Arc
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If I was asked did Jesus stumble carrying the cross I too woulld have said yes. For me I think it was Hollywood that in grained this into my head, I am not sure. :o :o
Interesting thread :D
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I was going to suggest that we shoot this thread in the head and put it out of its misery :o BUT I think we all learned something here! and hey...I was reminded why I rarely post any replies on this board...I just ain't that smart!! Carry on!!....without me! :D
Kathy ;)
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That is really interesting that Jesus didn't fall under the weight of the cross.
I saw a program where they did a test, and had an athletic type guy carry a typical cross.
He had to have a lot of help just to shoulder it, and was pooped at about 70 yards.
Their conclusion was, those going to be crucified, only carried the horizontal section.
Good food for thought.
Joel
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Jesus never fell because to fall is to miss the mark (sin) but He did carry His cross not a physical hunk of wood draped over His shoulder but a much greater cross (Spiritual) knowing that He would give His life so that all of humanity will be saved. He carried that cross all of His days on earth.
1John1:20 (GNB) He had been chosen by God before the creation of the world and was revealed in these last days for your (our) sake.
Luke 22:41 (GNB) Then He went off from them about the distance of a stone's throw and knelt down and prayed 42) Father He said if you will take this cup of suffering away from me. Not My will, however but your will be done 43) An angel from heaven appeared to Him and strengthened Him 44) in great anguish He prayed even more fervently; His sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
Jesus lived minute by minute moment by moment doing His Father's will.
Hummer
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I looked in the Douay version, the translation of Catholicism. The falls are not in the 4 gospels. And heaven forbid I should say to Arcturus, there were only 3 falls ever attributed to Jesus on the way to Golgatha in Catholicism. These must have been assumed with Veronica, Simon and the wailing women. The 14 stations of the cross are familiar to me having meditated on the Passion with the visual aids of the stations many times.
This is difficult for me but I cannot deny the fact that the falls are not mentioned. WOW!
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This is difficult for me but I cannot deny the fact that the falls are not mentioned. WOW!
Hi Judy,
It is as Ellie says in another Thread...another level :D ;D
Liberty feels so good, all thanks to our God! What a gift for us ex-Catholics... :) :D
Arc
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It is incorrect to say that Jesus did not fall down. We just do not know. There are two possibilities.
1) Jesus did not fall down.
2) Jesus did fall down, but that fact was not mentioned in the four gospel accounts.
If he did fall down, that was not a sin. Jesus did not sin. Sin, what defiles a man, comes out of ones heart: murder, hatred, lust, idolatry etc.
It would be understandable if he did fall down. He had been beaten to within an inch of His life by Roman thug soldiers. It doesn't appear he got any sleep the night before. In the face of all this, He stood tall; He did not sin; He did not deny His God. I am proud to call Him Lord and Boss.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
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Hi, although I am new to the forum, I am not new to Our Father and Lord Jesus. I have read much of the writings here and they fit in with what I have been taught over the past 23 years after coming out of Babylon and seeking the truth which can only come from our Creator, the Word.
Thus far in life regarding sin, I was taken back to the garden. In the garden before the fall, man was learning God's will. Man was commanded NOT to eat from the tree of "the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL", he was NOT given a choice. If the tree represents choosing for oneself what is good and evil, then eating from it means choosing SELF WILL over Gods Will and that is sin. Turning AWAY from the will of the ONLY one who can teach good and evil in an appropriate manner and choosing to deciding for oneself what it is is good or evil is sin. Even Jesus when he came said he came NOT to do his will but the will of the Father who sent him. When our sole purpose is to seek and learn Gods Will (his way) then we may fall but will always get up and try again as he teaches us more and more of his light (truth).
If this is wrong, please feel free to voice direction. :)
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Hi, although I am new to the forum, I am not new to Our Father and Lord Jesus. I have read much of the writings here and they fit in with what I have been taught over the past 23 years after coming out of Babylon and seeking the truth which can only come from our Creator, the Word.
Thus far in life regarding sin, I was taken back to the garden. In the garden before the fall, man was learning God's will. Man was commanded NOT to eat from the tree of "the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL", he was NOT given a choice. If the tree represents choosing for oneself what is good and evil, then eating from it means choosing SELF WILL over Gods Will and that is sin. Turning AWAY from the will of the ONLY one who can teach good and evil in an appropriate manner and choosing to deciding for oneself what it is is good or evil is sin. Even Jesus when he came said he came NOT to do his will but the will of the Father who sent him. When our sole purpose is to seek and learn Gods Will (his way) then we may fall but will always get up and try again as he teaches us more and more of his light (truth).
If this is wrong, please feel free to voice direction. :)
Hello Hcumbow and welcome to the forum,
A few points in regards to your comments:
1. There is no such thing as 'the fall' of mankind. (Please see Lake of Fire Part 15-D (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html) under the header 'The Unscriptural Fall of Man'.)
2. Adam and Eve were given a choice regarding whether or not to eat of the tree of life. But their choice was not free of other causes and circumstances present.
3. The scriptures state that the tree represents a knowledge of good and evil, not the choice itself to choose to eat of it or not. It was necessary for man to eat of the knowledge of the tree, as it is necessary process in making man into the image of God.
Gen 3:22 The LORD God said [after Adam & Eve partook of the tree of knowledge], Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
4. The Lord places everyone, save Jesus, in a position to resist His Will. One cannot be freed from the law of sin & death unless they are under it. (Please see Lake of Fire Part 15-A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html), under the header 'DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GOD’S STATED WILL AND HIS PLAN OR INTENTIONS')
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Another piece of light from the garden, did anyone ever really notice that man was put out of the garden for his own good? After disobeying the command to NOT partake of self will (to determine for oneself what is good and evil), man was banished to protect him from himself. How loving a Creator we have!
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Now man is tilling the ground from whence he was taken, and history is a trail of the fruit of those labors of attempting to figure out what is good or evil and the purpose of it by means of self instead of taught by God who created it all. Evil has its purpose, it is to teach and refine. Compare and contrast.
And even man's was disciplined for disobeying a direct command which was only meant for his good, even the discipline was laced with a promise of the way it will be when God's plan is completed and ALL will learn and delight in doing the will of God.
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Sin means to miss the mark. So very technically, if you are having target practice at a target and you miss the bulls eye, because that’s what you were trying to hit, you sinned. You missed the mark. You didn’t do what you wanted to do, you missed. So any failure, any mistake is a sin. Now it doesn’t have to be a big sin. We all make mistakes, you know.
Lupac. I believe that what Ray is referring to here is the basic meaning of the Hebrew word chata' that is translated most often as “sin” in the Old Testament. For example:
Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin (chata’) not.
Psalm 41:4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned (chata’) against thee.
Now from Judges 20:16...
Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss (chata').
So if these seven hundred chosen men had missed the target at which they were slinging stones, they would have sinned. i.e missed their mark.
That is all Ray was saying I think. Missing the mark, making a mistake is the basic meaning of the word, whether one is trying to shoot an arrow into a bullseye and misses or one is climbing a ladder and his/her foot slips and they fall.
Now when it comes to our relationship with God, we sin or miss the mark when we disobey His law. And since there are no laws from God that say that we should always hit a bullseye when we shoot an arrow or never fall from a ladder, we are not sinning against Him should we fail to do those things.
John says that sin is lawlessness (I John 3:4). God’s law is the mark and to fail to live by that law is sin against Him. That is what brings punishment and chastisement, not falling from a ladder or missing a bullseye.
As far as Jesus falling while walking to Golgotha, I agree with John from Kentucky. There are many things about Jesus’ life on this earth that we simply do not know because they are not recorded in the Scriptures. Just because it doesn’t say that he fell doesn’t mean that he didn’t. He was under tremendous physical pressure and stress at the time, so I for one would not blame him if he was not able to remain on his own two feet the entire walk. But the Scriptures just do not say, and the fault lies with those in the churches who have chosen to make a doctrine out of whether or not he fell and how many times he fell. It’s ridiculous some of the doctrines people make up these days simply to have something on which to preach every Sunday.
That said, if Jesus did fall, would he have sinned? If his “mark” or “goal” was to remain on his feet the whole walk to Golgotha (I’m not saying it was; this is just an “if”) and he fell, then yes, according to the basic meaning of the word, he did “sin.” He missed his mark. But he didn’t sin against God, because as far as I am aware, there is no law from God that says one must remain on his/her feet the entire time he/she is walking to his/her death.
Hope that makes sense,
Eric
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when God's plan is completed and ALL will learn and delight in doing the will of God.
That's a happy thought Heidi. :)
Welcome to the Forum.
Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Arc
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I think my first quote was misunderstood. I did not mean man was given a choice, that would be free will and we don't have it . However man did choose to eat from the tree AFTER being directly commanded NOT to.
Man is constantly making choices out of choosing to trust in what SELF wills (thinks or determines) instead of what God Wills (teaches, directs or reveals). They turn from CREATOR to SELF putting SELF in place of God. All sin results from that root premise and branches out from there into all the fruits of the flesh. God knew and planned for this to happen or He wouldn't have put the tree in the garden in the first place. Nor would He have created evil to use as a means to bring about His plan. What better way to teach man than to let him write the history until he nearly completely destroys himself?
Heidi
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I think my first quote was misunderstood.
Hello Heidi,
Sorry for any confusion, I think it's the continued reference of Adam and Eve partaking of the tree of knowledge as 'choosing self-will' that may be causing any miscommunication.
From the definition of self-will, it seems to be synonymous with carnality or sinful nature. But the 'choosing' of this self-will is what seems to be unscriptural. Here is why I say that:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
Paul tells us that creation was made subject to vanity [Gk. 'futility'] not willingly...there was no choice or choosing in the matter.
But maybe we're both essentially meaning the same thing...it's just one of those 'you say tomato, I say tomatoe' kind of things. Let us know if there is anything that else that is being misunderstood.
Marques
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Thank you Arc,
Ray articulates much better than I but if I didn't know what I meant I would never have spent 23 years waiting and finally finding someone who expounds (much better than I ) the truths as I have been taught by the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth. This site houses a great deal of them. I lay in bed one night wishing I was in the garden and praying and all of a sudden multiple scriptures came together to show me some things that astounded me. The serpent subtly tempted Eve to doubt the truth (what was commanded), doubt God, and finally judge for herself by external means (sight). When she partook she would be LIKE God knowing good and evil (Be self reliant, not need to be taught by the very one who Created and sustains everything and who alone can teach).
Then came the result of disobeying the command NOT to eat. The immediate result fear, then hiding (from God, the way and the truth)then blame etc (emotions and actions become chaotic)
Sin is missing the mark which is God and His Will, the RESULTS of sin (Turning from Gods will to self will) are the works of the flesh, all those listed in the bible. So if man is busy doing his own will, he misses the mark of doing God's will and will be busy with determining for himself what is good and evil which produces all the opposite of the fruits of the Spirit. Kind of like a tree, a tree starts from a root, grows a trunk, then branches and then leaves. Sin (turning away from God and His way) results in SELF-Will on the throne, Self-Will on the Throne results in wrong thoughts (not Gods way), wrong thoughts result in wrong deeds and on it goes until the fruit is evident.
I am so grateful we were created in His image and will be made in His likeness. Becoming like someone takes time interaction and learning from the one whom we hope to become like.
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Marques,
I think you are right. We are essentially saying the same thing. God may have destined this to happen but as Ray said, we still make choices. A choice is made when one Listens, processes what is heard (thinks), then takes action. That action resulted from a choice. Were they given the choice? NO, they were commanded DO NOT or ELSE. (But God planned it this way, else how would Jesus have been forordained BEFORE the foundation of the earth..?) There are good choices and bad choices but all choices can teach valuable lessons if we let God teach us. I have made many mistakes and been mistreated many times in my life. Before I learned that evil can teach good, my expectations and reactions were based much differently than now that I know I can learn valuable things that produce fruits of the Spirit. It also brings a sense of peace to know that I am about to learn something wonderful and makes the trial much more bearable when it happens. What did Joseph say: "...you meant it for evil but God meant it for good.... I really love that! :)