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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: M_Oliver on May 15, 2006, 09:52:39 PM
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It is very refreshing to have found a group of people who
are blessed with understanding or are on their way to
understanding. Thank you all.
I have a serious issue with the continued use of "soul" and
"spirit" in translation.
Can anyone explain why people who find so much truth by
examining the Hebrew and Greek to expose biased
translation continue to use "soul" and "spirit" when they
know the Hebrew and Greek mean breath, breathing, wind
current, a puff etc.?
Wasn't "soul" and "spirit" invented in Egypt's paganism?
What gives? Too much truth? I ask in sincerity. God has
kept me on this subject for quite some time.
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SOUL5315 (Hebrew)
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
SOUL5590 (Greek)
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants:
spirit7307 (Hebrew)
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
spirit4151 (Greek)
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
This subject comes up time and again, usually from someone who is attempting to show us the error of our ways. They claim the use of "soul" denotes something inherent in man outside of or in addition to; body + breath (of life from God) = soul
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed5301 into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.5315
Breathed (Hebrew)
H5301
נפח
nâphach
naw-fakh'
A primitive root; to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, scatter, kindle, expire; figuratively, to disesteem): - blow, breath, give up, cause to lose [life], seething, snuff.
Breath5397 (Hebrew)
H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
Breath4157 (Greek)
G4157
πνοή
pnoē
pno-ay'
From G4154; respiration, a breeze: - breath, wind.
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Welcome to the forum, M_Oliver.
Its my understanding we have a body and a spirit, which combined is what makes us a soul. Lot of people say we are three, body, spirit and soul to try and support their trinity doctrine.
God bless,
Gary
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Welcome to the forum, M_Oliver.
Its my understanding we have a body and a spirit, which combined is what makes us a soul. Lot of people say we are three, body, spirit and soul to try and support their trinity doctrine.
God bless,
Gary
Welcome abord M_oliver, i hope you take the time to read alll the articles posted on this site, and God willing Grow in the Spiritual Truth that has been granted to all of us, Praise God He is amazing :)
I can give an Amen to that Gary!
Body and Breath of life (Spirit) = SOUL!
The Body Dies = Soul dead. SPirit returns to God (Breath of Life returns to God because Body died obviously.)
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Body and Breath of life (Spirit) = SOUL!
when is a body a body? at conception? when does God breath into a fetus?
when does she soul come alive? at conception or at first breath?
when does the spirit enter into a body? at conception?
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1Ti 6:1-8
(1) Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
(2) And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
(3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
(4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
(5) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
(6) But godliness with contentment is great gain.
(7) For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
(8 ) And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
2Ti 2:23-26
(23) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do engender strifes.
(24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
(25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
(26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
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1Ti 6:1-8
(1) Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
(2) And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
(3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
(4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
(5) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
(6) But godliness with contentment is great gain.
(7) For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
(8 ) And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
2Ti 2:23-26
(23) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do engender strifes.
(24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
(25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
(26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
why dont you just say what you mean?
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Again this is a legit questiopn poses for you all.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed5301 into his nostrils the breath5397 of life; and man became a living soul.5315
at what point did God breath into you and you became a living soul??
or was this act in gen. a one time thing that was passed on to the human race??
thanks
chuckt
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Body and Breath of life (Spirit) = SOUL!
when is a body a body? at conception? when does God breath into a fetus?
when does she soul come alive? at conception or at first breath?
when does the spirit enter into a body? at conception?
Great question Euty,
It's also the one which was answered and influenced Bill Clinton to endorse abortion. He was taught that there is a difference between respiration and breathing...which there is. The lungs are not functioning in the womb. And cellular respiration is via the mother's blood supply. Therefore a fetus is not a breathing creature...until it draws breath at birth.
As far as when does the spirit enter the body???
[RSV] ECC 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.
I've only found this explanation in the RSV translation. I especially like that last part about how we don't know the work of God...nearly as well as we think IMO.
Exodus also seems to place a different value on the "life" of a fetus versus that of a birthed child, at least in the RSV again. If only a miscarriage takes place there is a fine. But if the mother dies...then it is a life for a life.
EXO 21:22 "When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
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I find this interesting, not sure if it really means anything in regards to this thread
Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
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well... I gave you my answer already but will go ahead and post it here...
I don’t think that is has anything to do with the ‘air’ (or breath) that we take at birth… but it has to do with His spirit (not the spirit of Christ, but the spirit which gives us life that comes from the Father) that He puts in us to make us a ‘living soul’….
When does that happen?? I don’t know…. But I would GUESS at conception…. When the body has begun to ‘form’ in the womb….. it seems to me that the fetus is ‘alive’ even before actual birth… BEFORE taking a breath of air… it is considered 'viable' even before considered 'full-term'... and responds to outside stimuli, etc, even while in the womb....
Chrissie
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[[RSV] ECC 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.
WONDERFULL , GREAT WORK, I WAS HOPING SOMEONE WOULD POST ECC.
EXCELLENT JOB!!!
LOVE
CHUCKT
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THREAD COMES ALIVE, I LOVE IT.
all life is from god and its a wonderfull gift!
i beleive Eve being the mother of all living has different levels.
ie, human race and in whom Christ would come.
while we can understand it perfectly no doubt conception is
life.
peace
thanks everyone
chuckt
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I find this interesting, not sure if it really means anything in regards to this thread
Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Hi Laren great verse I found another for John to add. A couple more too elsewhere, one of Jesus too.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Eccles 11:5 As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
LLuke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Daniel :)
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These verses in Jeremiah came to my mind:
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Love in Christ,
Andy
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:oops: Sorry Chuck I was typing my page and did not realize you posted the same verse of scripture
Daniel
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well... I gave you my answer already but will go ahead and post it here...
I don’t think that is has anything to do with the ‘air’ (or breath) that we take at birth… but it has to do with His spirit (not the spirit of Christ, but the spirit which gives us life that comes from the Father) that He puts in us to make us a ‘living soul’….
When does that happen?? I don’t know…. But I would GUESS at conception…. When the body has begun to ‘form’ in the womb….. it seems to me that the fetus is ‘alive’ even before actual birth… BEFORE taking a breath of air… it is considered 'viable' even before considered 'full-term'... and responds to outside stimuli, etc, even while in the womb....
Chrissie
Exactly! I agree because God created Adam from the dust of the ground, and it was not until He breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life that he became a living soul. so a baby is a "living soul" even inside his mother's womb. It needs to feed, and everything otherwise it'll die. therefore, alive.
I mean am I right on this, or am I a heretic?
Sorin
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Good imput guys. Verses I've never been taught or thought of before concerning this subject.
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Also in keeping with the fact that it is Godo who opens and closes the womb to begin with... so even conception is at the will of God.
Chrissie
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Hello M, I did not accuse you of having any ulterior motive if I gave that impression I apologize. My point was that we do not ascribe to the "soul" as being anything other than body (formed of clay by God) + spirit (breathed by God) = a living soul.
I did mention that this subject comes up time after time, and it is usually by someone who believes in an immortal soul or the trinity doctrine or both.
I was only attempting to answer what I thought was your question.
Again, my apologies.
Joe
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The life is in the blood. The blood of the lamb, who takes away the sins of the world. The shedding of blood is what paid for our sins. The human at conception is kept alive and born by the blood of the mother and the seed of the father.
In the same way Jesus came first, before the creation, so the fetus relies on the blood before birth, before the breath of life enters the baby. As in the natural so is the spiritual.
Spiritually speaking, it is the same for us while alive. While carnal we rely on our mother the church, until born again, this time with the Holy Spirit (wind) or breath. Then as we mature we come out of her and move on to the spiritual things of God.
God bless,
Gary
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The life is in the blood.
YES!!! :D I see it that way to.... seeing the physical verses the spiritual. In that 'death' came through one man (the FIRST Adam) and life came through ONE (the SECOND Adam, a life-giving spirit).
Through the first Adam we partake of his 'blood'... in a physical, corruptible sense.... DYING from the day that we are 'born' (even conceived).
Through the second Adam we partake if His BLOOD, SPIRITUALLY, pure and incorruptible and LIFE-giving....
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.[/list:u]
God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul.... body + spirit = soul.... and we through Adam (and Eve)... yet we have NO LIFE in us... :cry: for the flesh profits NOTHING.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
So cool!! 8)
Chrissie
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I love this place!!! :D Chrissiela that was great praise God for you!
I liked the way you showed that.
Daniel
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The life is in the blood. The blood of the lamb, who takes away the sins of the world. The shedding of blood is what paid for our sins. The human at conception is kept alive and born by the blood of the mother and the seed of the father.
In the same way Jesus came first, before the creation, so the fetus relies on the blood before birth, before the breath of life enters the baby. As in the natural so is the spiritual.
Spiritually speaking, it is the same for us while alive. While carnal we rely on our mother the church, until born again, this time with the Holy Spirit (wind) or breath. Then as we mature we come out of her and move on to the spiritual things of God.
God bless,
Gary
very good :idea:
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M_oliver
Like you, I too question Strong's definitons. They did not satisfy years of study concerning man being a spirit and body. I have asked for an explanation of the following verse several times with no one coming up to the plate with an answer.
1Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless....
Now I'm going to add two more. Mary the mother of Jesus separates spirit and soul:
Luke 1:46 And Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior.
The writer of Hebrews distinguishes three parts.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts right?).
I now have more than the first unanswered verse begging for explanation. So once again I'll ask for some one to give me a good explanation for man being biparte instead of triparte. And another misinterpretation IMO :wink: from Genesis and Strong's isn't what I'm looking for. I've known about both of them for a long long time. Please give honest and sincere dialogue.
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Chrissie brought up an excellent point. Unless we drink His blood (Spiritual) we have no "life" in us who are living souls (as Adam was) as the Lord said right?
Daniel
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Please give honest and sincere dialogue.
Any reason to believe that the dialogue here is not honest and/or sincere?? :shock:
Maybe I missed it, but did someone say that there is not a body, a spirit and a soul?
All ‘three’ are mentioned in the scriptures.
The body is not the spirit, neither is it the soul…. and vise versa (as applicable to each).
But ONE (the soul) is a 'combination' of the other two.... all resulting in ONE
‘whole’ (person).
The same can be said for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost, couldn’t it?
All ‘three’ are mentioned in the scriptures.
Yet, the Holy Spirit does not exist independent of the Father and the Son but is, in essence, a 'combination' of the Father and the Son.... who are ONE 'whole' (God).
Maybe I am not understanding your question or the reason for the references that you gave??
Chrissie
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Lightseeker, I had asked you before whether you have read any material on this Bible Truths, you told me you had. So I can only guess you missed this one; http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
It is right on top of Ray's page, here is a portion of it;
DR. STRONG’S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES
I personally use Dr. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. It is a most helpful book. However, when it comes to the major "damnable heresies" of Christendom, Dr. Strong plays the same game of contradictions and square circles, as do the pastors and theologians.
Next, let’s study Strong’s definition of soul in the Hebrew and soul in the Greek:
In the Hebrew Scriptures, soul is translated from, H5315 nephesh = neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Say, did you catch that one word Dr. Strong used to define the soul—nephesh?
He used as a definition of "soul," the word "MORTALITY." How pray tell, can pastors, teachers, and theologians tell us that man’s soul is IMMORTAL, when the very definition of "soul—nephesh" is "MORTAL." Yes, of course, Godly men inspired by God’s Holy Spirit have always known that man is "mortal"—"Shall MORTAL man be more just than God…" (Job 4:17).
And so, what kind of a "living soul" did Adam become? Why a "living [mortal] soul," of course. Maybe that’s why Jesus also stated that "souls" can be "destroyed." We cannot separate the man from his soul in two different parts, as though the soul were something that existed independently of the body. For this reason, when the Bible speaks of "people" dying or being destroyed, it sometimes refers to them as "souls," for the soul is the person. Adam himself was the "living soul." (See: Joshua 10:28,35,37,39).
In the Greek Scriptures, soul is translated from, G5590 psuche¯ = psoo-khay'
"From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you."0
Next notice this statement in Strong’s definition of psuche above: "G4151, which is the rational and IMMORTAL SOUL." Oh really? Just like that? Noticed how casually Dr. Strong just dropped that little gem into his definition of soul. First he confirms the fact that the soul of man is MORTAL, but then quickly asserts that there is, however, another, different Greek word, which really does mean immortal soul, and it is the Greek word # 4151—pnuma.
Even though Dr. Strong knew the Hebrew word nephesh meant "mortal," and not "immortal" he nonetheless must be quick to inform us of his own personal heresy, and tell us that although the nephesh/soul of man is mortal, nevertheless man also possesses an "immortal" soul. And in so doing, we must conclude that that (‘mortal’ Job 4:17) man possesses two souls: one mortal and one immortal. Do Christians ever think about all these unscriptural heresies? Of course not. As we learned in the Army—"Ours is not to reason why; ours is but to do or die."
So the Greek word #4151 = pnuma, is the "immortal soul?" I would have never guessed: I always thought pnuma meant "spirit." You all know, I hope, that in the King James Version, the words "spirit" and "ghost" are translated from the exact same Greek word "pnuma," don’t you? Well, now you do.
Now, get this: pnuma is used in the Greek Scriptures approximately 360 times. And Dr. Strong tells us that this word pnuma IS the word for "immortal soul." So just how many times do you think this word is translated "immortal soul" out of the 360 verses which contain the Greek word pnuma?" Oh, go ahead—guess? Three hundred? Two hundred? Fifty? Ten? Three? One? Would you believe not even once? What about the "soul" by itself. How many times is pneuma translated "soul?" Three hundred? Two hundred? Fifty? Ten? Three? One? Would you believe none?
That’s right, none. Not once is this word pnuma, which Dr. Strong tells us is the proper word for "immortal soul," actually translated "immortal soul." It is always translated "spirit" [sometimes, ‘ghost’], but never "immortal soul." Nor is it even translated "soul" even without the prefix, "immortal."
No one here believes Strong (or even any translation is perfect) that is why we are admonished to compare spiritual to spiritual and to gather at least 2 witnesses.
Joe
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Lightseeker,
Here is more reading for you given in the spirit of honest and sincere dialogue.
Spiritual Meaning Of Key Words In Scripture;
Soul
The attachment God has with each individual person is his creation. The soul is not alive without a body, be it a physical body at creation and conception: "He formed man of the dust of the ground and He breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7), or a spiritual body at the resurrection: It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body (I Cor. 15:44). A dead body is not a conscious body (Ecc. 3:18-20) but is "asleep in Christ" or not in Christ but asleep (I Cor. 15:18). But God does not forget "the work of His hands" (Job 14:15) and refers to the soul as His 'darling' in Psa. 22:20 and 35:17. The soul is Gods knowledge of who we are dead or alive.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/spiritdie.php
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/soultruth.php
Joe
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Good imput guys. Verses I've never been taught or thought of before concerning this subject.
Then you write? I now have more than the first unanswered verse begging for explanation. So once again I'll ask for some one to give me a good explanation for man being biparte instead of triparte. And another misinterpretation IMO from Genesis and Strong's isn't what I'm looking for. I've known about both of them for a long long time. Please give honest and sincere dialogue.
Lightseeker, both of these quotes are yours, in the same thread, what is up Brother?
Joe
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Lightseeker,
Here is more reading for you given in the spirit of honest and sincere dialogue.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/spiritdie.php
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/soultruth.php
Joe
hillsbororiver,
Thank you so much for posting this, I havent read these yet. I was reading the verses you just posted. The thought came to me, of one breath? I know Paul quoted an Athens poet saying "in Him we live more and have our being" both man and beast have no preeminence over the other. What I was wondering is, isn't the spirit of a man (or beast) different from the Spirit of God in Christ? Like a "second wind" :lol: if you'll allow that pun? I thought that was cute :D
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Then it speaks of us being given the Spirit which is from God, called the mind of Christ right?
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
That means only the spiritual man can receive the things of the spirit of God. Is that here or when we physically die? Is this speaking more of being in the flesh after a spiritual truth then a physical one?
Roman 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If the Sword of the Spirit is the word of God divides the soul and spirit, which spirit does it cut through? Wouldn't it be our own? We would then be joined to His Spirit, and Gods Spirit in us dies too, am I getting the swing of things here? :lol:
I will go look at those links you provided thank you, these are just what I was looking for :D
Daniel
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Daniel, being in the Spirit of Christ makes you a new creation!
The following is from Ray's Lake of Fire Part IX;
TO BE "IN CHRIST" IS SALVATION
What does it mean to be "IN Christ" seeing that ALL IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL BE "IN Christ?"
"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, ALL things are become new."
How many will be reconciled "IN Christ?"
"To wit, that God was IN Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TREPASSES UNTO THEM…" (II Cor. 5:17 & 19).
Of course, how could it be otherwise? Jesus doesn’t make just "some" new creatures from the old, no, He makes "ALL THINGS … NEW." And we all know this verse:
"There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are IN Christ Jesus…"
How many will be IN Christ? We read it: "ALL." There is coming the time when there will be no more condemnation IN ANYONE ANYWHERE! Praise God and BELIEVE
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
There is much meat in these articles,
Joe
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Thank you hillsbororiver, you even made a bit more sense of M_Oliver's thoughts I believe.
One is "the creature" and the other a "new creature".
"The creature" is subject to vanity (or corruption) and the other (new creature) liberated in Christ who is not corruptible? To be clothed in Christ?
spirit of man verses Spirit of God, the natural man cannot receive?
I need more spirit studies
Daniel
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Hi. I have read this entire thread several times. M. Oliver asks a question. We got off on tangents with babies and then M.Oliver asks again why don't we see it. Here is what I don't see. If Genesis is really meaning "alive breathing" not "living soul" What does that ultimately mean? M. Oliver I don't know the point but would like to know where you are headed. Others of you I don't understand getting upset or personal. I don't want this to get locked before I see what would be the big difference between alive breathing and soul. I am sincere. M. Oliver your first post was happy and your last post seemed exasperated. Shouldn't we leave Strong's alone and go to the interlinear or e sword?
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Not one of you is understanding my point at all. I am truly puzzled as to why I can see this as clear as day while even Ray blows right by it.
Thank you Joe for posting some of Ray's material so I can demonstrate. Do not mistake. I respect Ray greatly. God has used him to show me much. I am not picking a fight with him or anyone here. I am trying to shine some light on this lie.
From "DR. STRONG'S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES"
QUOTE: "In the Hebrew Scriptures, soul is translated from, H5315 nephesh = neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature"
If "nephesh" PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHERE do you get "SOUL" from? Do not dare tell me to ADD the breath of life + the body to = soul or some other stupid equation unless you can prove it with scripture. I'll tell you right now you cannot unless you 'ADD TO THE BOOK.'
QUOTE: "Say, did you catch that one word Dr. Strong used to define the soul—nephesh?"
Yes I did. If it PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHY is it translated soul? WHY?
QUOTE: "And so, what kind of a "living soul" did Adam become?"
He DIDN'T become a "living soul". He became ALIVE[chay-2416] BREATHING[nephesh-5315] OR He became ALIVE, a BREATHING CREATURE. Either translation is much more accurate than "soul". Soul is not in the Hebrew!
Is that so hard to understand? The Hebrew DOES NOT say that Adam became a "living soul". Am I really the only one here who can see this?
M, let me paraphrase what you are saying, "soul" has no root in Hebrew or Greek.
Agreed, it's root is Old English "sawol" similar to the Old High Greman "seula"
defined as: an actuating cause of an individual life
No argument.
Joe
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Hi. I have read this entire thread several times. M. Oliver asks a question. We got off on tangents with babies and then M.Oliver asks again why don't we see it. Here is what I don't see. If Genesis is really meaning "alive breathing" not "living soul" What does that ultimately mean? M. Oliver I don't know the point but would like to know where you are headed. Others of you I don't understand getting upset or personal. I don't want this to get locked before I see what would be the big difference between alive breathing and soul. I am sincere. M. Oliver your first post was happy and your last post seemed exasperated. Shouldn't we leave Strong's alone and go to the interlinear or e sword?
Excellent point gmik :shock: Is this speaking of spiritual truths between both the creature and the new creature or physical truths? Obviously the dead can burry the dead, and the dead were physically alive.
Gmik do you have a link to those reccomendations of yours?
Thanks
Daniel
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Thank you hillsbororiver, you even made a bit more sense of M_Oliver's thoughts I believe.
One is "the creature" and the other a "new creature".
"The creature" is subject to vanity (or corruption) and the other (new creature) liberated in Christ who is not corruptible? To be clothed in Christ?
spirit of man verses Spirit of God, the natural man cannot receive?
I need more spirit studies
Daniel
You are very welcome Daniel. If I can be of any help just ask and I will at least give an honest effort.
Gena, I admit to being thick at times and my wife would concur to that as well, I did not get what M Oliver's point was at first, he is right the word soul has neither a Hebrew or Greek root or Latin either for that matter, it has Middle Ages English as it's grandaddy.
Joe
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Not one of you is understanding my point at all. I am truly puzzled as to why I can see this as clear as day while even Ray blows right by it.
Thank you Joe for posting some of Ray's material so I can demonstrate. Do not mistake. I respect Ray greatly. God has used him to show me much. I am not picking a fight with him or anyone here. I am trying to shine some light on this lie.
From "DR. STRONG'S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES"
QUOTE: "In the Hebrew Scriptures, soul is translated from, H5315 nephesh = neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature"
If "nephesh" PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHERE do you get "SOUL" from? Do not dare tell me to ADD the breath of life + the body to = soul or some other stupid equation unless you can prove it with scripture. I'll tell you right now you cannot unless you 'ADD TO THE BOOK.'
QUOTE: "Say, did you catch that one word Dr. Strong used to define the soul—nephesh?"
Yes I did. If it PROPERLY MEANS a breathing creature WHY is it translated soul? WHY?
QUOTE: "And so, what kind of a "living soul" did Adam become?"
He DIDN'T become a "living soul". He became ALIVE[chay-2416] BREATHING[nephesh-5315] OR He became ALIVE, a BREATHING CREATURE. Either translation is much more accurate than "soul". Soul is not in the Hebrew!
Is that so hard to understand? The Hebrew DOES NOT say that Adam became a "living soul". Am I really the only one here who can see this?
I see your point, but I don't see the problem??
"Soul" is not in the Hebrew?
Neither are any of the other English words in the English translations of the scriptures.... the Greek and Hebrew words are translated into English (and any of a number of other languages).
If the English word "soul" means "a breathing creature" and the Hebrew word nephesh means "a breathing creature".... then what is the problem exactly?
From webster.com
Main Entry: 1soul
Pronunciation: 'sOl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soule, from Old English sAwol; akin to Old High German sEula soul
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe b capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
3 : a person's total self
4 a : an active or essential part b : a moving spirit : LEADER
5 a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment c : spiritual or moral force : FERVOR
6 : PERSON
7 : EXEMPLIFICATION, PERSONIFICATION <she is the soul of integrity>
8 a : a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) conveyed especially by black American performers b : NEGRITUDE c : SOUL MUSIC d : SOUL FOOD e : SOUL BROTHER
It doesn't exactly define it in English as "a breathing creature" but it certainly defines it as the person as a whole (which would certainly include a body and a spirit, would it not?) and that which 'animates' or gives 'force' to us.
So seeing that the body and the spirit together creates "a breathing creature" (termed, in english, as a "soul"). So I am just not seeing what the problem is???
Are you saying that the terms soul and spirit are interchangeable? Is the problem what you said about the "soul" being a term derived from "Egyptian paganism" or something?
Call me dumb... :lol: :lol: :lol: but I, for one, am still not understanding what you are asking or what the problem is.... even though I do believe that I understand your point. But maybe I am just fooling myself on that one, too. :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Chrissie
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Daniel. Maybe someone else will give you the links. But I think you can just type in e-sword and download it and then do interlinear scripture analyzer. They are on my desktop so when I open them I don't see an address.
Joe. I have read most of your posts and know for sure you are NOT thick headed! :D
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Sorry... I 'overposted' about 7 posts there :oops: ..... but I still do not see the "lie". :cry:
Chrissie
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If someone here is monitoring this and thinks it should be locked, I'll be first to say you are wrong.
Somehow that doesn't surprise me :D
I am a moderator, and as long as it remains civil it won't be locked or deleted.
Joe
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The carnal mind is death and the Spiritual mind is life.
One is terrestrial and the other cellestrial or earthly verses heavenly right?
Are you saying God is not Spirit? Or that Spirit does not exist?
Not sure what your getting at M_Oliver
To anyone, this verse? Know what the word soul here (in reference to God) means? Whats the correct word? Anyone knoow?
Isaiah 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: :?: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].
Thanks
Daniel
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M Oliver, you are getting over the top now, no one called you a liar, those are your words.
Please get your emotions under control when posting, no one is promoting paganism and your accusational, angry posts are not edifying and wearing thin.
Thanks,
Joe
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M Oliver, you are getting over the top now, no one called you a liar, those are your words.
Please get your emotions under control when posting, no one is promoting paganism and your accusational, angry posts are not edifying and wearing thin.
Thanks,
Joe
Amen hillsbororiver :D No ones being hateful here. Thats more the definition of a liar. Someone who "says" they love God but hates their brother that is a liar. Its not good to become hateful
Daniel
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edit
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Prove "SOUL". Prove "SPIRIT". If you can with Scripture, I am the the liar.
No one accused you of being a liar, even if your point is refuted, we all are capable of being wrong. Yourself included.
Joe
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Your word was liar, no one else used it, can't you read your own quote?
I said anyone is capable of being wrong. No one man has all the knowledge or understanding, being wrong does not make one a liar. My friend it was you that brought in that word. Please make your point and stop with the pagan accusations, no one here is promoting paganism.
What is your opinion of these words which also have no Hebrew or Greek as their root word?
Elect
Main Entry: 1elect
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: i-'lekt
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin electus, past participle of eligere to select, from e- + legere to choose -- more at LEGEND
1 : carefully selected : CHOSEN
2 : chosen for salvation through divine mercy
3 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed <the president-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time
Believe
Main Entry: be·lieve
Function: verb
Pronunciation: b&-'lev
Inflected Form(s): be·lieved ; be·liev·ing
Etymology: Middle English beleven, from Old English belefan, from be- + lyfan, lefan to allow, believe; akin to Old High German gilouben to believe, Old English leof dear -- more at LOVE
intransitive senses
1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>
2 : to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>
3 : to hold an opinion : THINK <I believe so>
transitive senses
1 a : to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> b : to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>
2 : to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE <I believe it will rain soon>
- be·liev·er noun
- not believe : to be astounded at <I couldn't believe my luck>
Breath
Main Entry: breath
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'breth
Etymology: Middle English breth, from Old English br[AE]th; akin to Old High German brAdam breath, and perhaps to Old English beorma yeast -- more at BARM
1 a : air filled with a fragrance or odor b : a slight indication : SUGGESTION <the faintest breath of scandal>
2 a : the faculty of breathing <recovering his breath after the race> b : an act of breathing <fought to the last breath> c : opportunity or time to breathe : RESPITE
3 : a slight breeze
4 a : air inhaled and exhaled in breathing <bad breath> b : something (as moisture on a cold surface) produced by breath or breathing c : INHALATION
5 : a spoken sound : UTTERANCE
6 : SPIRIT , ANIMATION
- in one breath or in the same breath : almost simultaneously
- out of breath : breathing very rapidly (as from strenuous exercise)
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Sorry... I 'overposted' about 7 posts there :oops: ..... but I still do not see the "lie". :cry:
Chrissie
Prove "SOUL". Prove "SPIRIT". If you can with Scripture, I am the the liar. Until then, "soul" and "spirit" are the liar and OF the church.
I never said that you were wrong; I said that I didn't see the problem.
If nephesh mean a "breathing creature" and I understand that the word SOUL means, in essence, a "breathing creature"... what do I have to PROVE?
I can certainly prove that those are the words that are found in the english translation of the scriptures..... and in my opinion the meaning of the words are very similar in meaning/definition, even if not the 'best' translation.
How does changing "soul" to "breathing creature" change the meaning? What shall we use for "spirit"? Wind? Breath?
These are WORDS.
Do I need to go through my scriptures and cross out all the words "soul" and write in "breathing creature" so that my translation will be 'more accurate'? Even though I know/understand that the word SOUL refers to a BREATHING CREATURE?
If the beast is the flesh and the flesh is the carnal mind WHY is not the opposite simply non-carnal or ethereal? Why must one abide in Egypt.
We are talking about WORDS?? How is using the words that are actually found in the scriptures (as translated) abiding in Egypt??
For instance, if I used the word "trinity" as part of my vocabulary or in my definitions/explanations about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, even though that word is nowhere found in the scriptures, then I could see a much more serious problem.... but we are talking about words that are actually found in the scriptures - as english translations of Hebrew (or Greek) words.
We can look at the Hebrew/Greek words in scriptures and make determinations about what the words mean, how they are used, etc, without physically changing them or re-writing the scriptures that we have.
Is that not part of studying to show yourself approved?
If we start changing the 'terminology' that is known and understood by most Christians who are already familiar with the scriptures, what good does that do? then you simply distance yourself even further and much more time and effort is involved in 'explaining' yourself and your beliefs to others.
If you submit to "soul" and "spirit" you are a promoter of all the paganism that the blind church too supports. Where am I wrong?
I don't see how I am submitting to anything by using the words that are provided, as they are, in the scriptures..... there are many words that could be translated "better". But I don't see that as a requirement to go out and rewrite the scriptures to correct every erroneous word/translation. What and who would that benefit? Why isn't it enough to know and understand where the words come from and what they mean as a part of your study?
I can get "to the bottom of it" by studying the words that are there - to learn from where they are derived and what they mean; how they are used, etc, without actually 'changing' them.
They are the words that most are FAMILIAR with and I just don't see how changing my terminolgy from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar (but has the same or very similar meaning) in beneficial. Then I would have to go about changing the terminolgy of everyone else who reads and studies the scriptures if I want them to understand what I am saying or referring to.
I could see if the translated word was completely erroneous or just plain wrong.... like translating 'lâbân lâbên' (white) as "black" or "house" or something.... just not seeing the problem with words like "soul" and "spirit". Seems to me that there are bigger fish to fry??
Chrissie
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M_Oliver,
Calm down NOW.
You asked a good question. The group is responding, some are thinking out loud.
Joe is not setting a trap, so that is not the way it works. And no one is hanging you out to dry. You need to take a chill pill.
I personally would like to see this thread play itself out, but......if we can't keep this discussion civil I will lock this thread.
Remember, don't try to read more into a post than the writer intended. It is easy to do and feathers tend to get ruffled when it happens.
As for now I am locking this thread until tomorrow, so lets take a deep breath and consider our posts wisely.
Craig
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This thread is open again. Be civil and agree to disagree if it comes to that.
Craig
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The salvation of our soul isn't a all or nothing salvation IMO. It is a salvation from one degree to the next. And that INCHRISTING of our soul is what transforms our flesh loving 'dying soul' into a Christ's life/quickening spirit 'living soul'.
Thoughts?
I can second that!! :wink:
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Chrissie
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M_oliver
Like you, I too question Strong's definitons. They did not satisfy years of study concerning man being a spirit and body. I have asked for an explanation of the following verse several times with no one coming up to the plate with an answer.
1Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless....
Now I'm going to add two more. Mary the mother of Jesus separates spirit and soul:
Luke 1:46 And Mary said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior.
The writer of Hebrews distinguishes three parts.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts right?).
I now have more than the first unanswered verse begging for explanation. So once again I'll ask for some one to give me a good explanation for man being biparte instead of triparte. And another misinterpretation IMO :wink: from Genesis and Strong's isn't what I'm looking for. I've known about both of them for a long long time. Please give honest and sincere dialogue.
Dee, a few of us went through this a few weeks ago, let me try again.
First off, you think it is impossible that the prejudice of the translators may have a role in the order of these words; spirit, soul & body? If it was originally written soul, body & spirit would it not have a different connotation? Much like it is written in Genesis, Psalms, Job, etc. that the spirit & body constitute "soul"?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
No mention of a 3rd part of the equation;
Take one page out of a book, the page is comprised of paper and ink, is it one page made out of two componants, or is the page three seperate things? Now I do not have a two edged sword that could split the ink off of the page, but if I had a laser that could seperate ink from paper would that prove the page was three componants and not two?
ink + paper = page
body + spirit = soul
Dee, please give us 2 witnesses to this body + soul + spirit = man
Joe
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which is a salvation subsequent to our "To be in Christ is Salvation" which Joe mentioned.
It is a salvation from one degree to the next. And that INCHRISTING of our soul is what transforms our flesh loving 'dying soul' into a Christ's life/quickening spirit 'living soul'.
Thoughts?[/quote]
Lightseeker,
Need some clarification, please.
"...which is a salvation subsequent...." By this do you mean "walking out" our salvation?
"It is a salvation from one degree to the next." Crucifying the flesh?
"...transforms our flesh loving 'dying soul' into a Christ's life/quickening spirit 'living soul'." This is not clear as to when you believe this takes place. Are you implying an immortal soul?
I agree with Chrissie "...are changed into the same image from glory to glory...", but is that all you're saying here?
Thanx,
Tom
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Hi lightseeker,
Thanks for sharing, how do you see these, I am curious
Luke 29:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.[/u]
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.[/u]
1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/u]
1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(you had already quoted that one) But this one in particular
Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.[/u]
Daniel
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Dee, let's agree to disagree, you and I are way apart on this and I can see you are not absorbing the point at all.
There is no eternal man spirit, the spirit that gave the body of Adam (and us) life is the breath of life from the Spirit of God.
You totally ignored my analogy about the two edged sword and how that verse gave an example of how sharp the edge was and not that there are 3 parts to mankind, we are the same as the beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Your second witness to your theory has nothing to do with a 3 part man but everything to do with the sharp edge of His Word.
You never answered my question about the ink, paper, page.
There is no purpose in continuing this, perhaps you might take the time in actually reading the materials on Bible Truths rather than glossing over the titles saying you already know everything.
How can you possibly judge these articles by their title? If a book was entitled "Science" would you claim to know all the contents without reading it? This will be my last post on this thread.
Dee, if you ever take the time to read the material I will be happy to discuss any of it with you, but at this time we are simply too far apart to communicate effectively. You are speaking Russian and I am speaking Chinese.
Peace,
Joe
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I'm still studying these things. I might need help if anyone can help me. I found the following.
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Is this correct, the word breathed here is found in only two places?
1) to blow or breathe upon
Which states
This word used only once by the LXX translators in Gen 2:7 where God breathed on Adam and he became a living soul.
Just as the original creation was completed by an act of God, so to the new creation was completed by an act from the Head of the new creation.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Is this corrrect that these both are the only place that this particular word is found? I can see the correlation between the two.
:lol: Joe its comical that we can all speak from scripture and not hear one another at times and at other times can hear each other. Each one doing their best to try to understand whats written.
Daniel
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Joe,
You quoted
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
I see this exactly as you wrotte it, I agree. I'm thinking if Adam as the beasts and us all share in the natural man one breath and the sustaining of the naturral man is counted as one breath, then the breath Jesus breathed into them was like a second breath in the above?
Reason I ask is because the first breath or pattern is seen as that which sustains the natural man to live in the body as Ray teaches, is this ccorrect? But if the same word is found in relation to Christ breathing on His disciples corresponds to the first, then the fllesh counts for nothing in regards to the first breath of the flesh right? :?
If not, then already living souls (the disciples, the creatures) received another breath by Christ Himself (to become to new creatures) how would this be counted? See what I am asking?
Daniel
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Daniel,
Wow quick response, are you sure you read thoroughly? I've been busy all morning trying to put that last one together while still seeing patients.
All the scriptures you quote are the very same kind which have me here seeking other opinions . I am curious as to the response from others here would be to those scriptures based on man being a spirit, body only.
GEN 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life/Chay also...
This is were M_olivers view caught my interest. Where the physical trees for physical food to sustain the temporal life until man breaths his last? But the tree of chay/life is aonian life, or life unto the end of the age?
Thanks for sharing, how do you see these, I am curious
Luke 29:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
The soul isn't totally saved/renewed by saying "Yes to Jesus at the alter."
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
This speaks of the backsliding, or not backsliding, salvation of our soul.
1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
I believe that speaks of someone having the complete mind of Christ by putting on the fullness of the stature of the image of Christ.
1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved/tereo blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(you had already quoted that one) But this one in particular
5083 tereo: to guard (from loss or injury, prop. by keeping the eye upon); by impl. to detain (in custody; fig. to maintain); by extens. to withhold (for personal ends;
Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I'll answer my view of this one with a verse.
ROM 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed/metamorphoo by the renewing of your mind,
3339 metamorphoo: to transform (lit. or fig. "metamorphose")
This word metamorphoo is only in the NT 4 times. Two times were the transfiguration of Jesus on the mount, once when Moses face glowed requiring a veil, and here in Romans which is a call to us.
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Thank you answering my post Lightseeker
I've got A.D.D. sorry :lol:
Daniel
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Daniel,
I'm not sure I understand the question.
We were given life (in the flesh) by God in the beginning (God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. Right?
But that 'life' that we were given is actually NO LIFE at all. We only have LIFE through Christ..... we have to be "born again".... this would be the recieving of the Holy Spirit (signified by Jesus breathing on His disciples). In essence, BOTH "breaths" coming from God... but the 'second coming' :lol: :lol: (just thought of that... hehe) is a 're-birth' :?: ... creating a 'new' creature :!: (born AGAIN)...
Chrissie
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Daniel,
I'm not sure I understand the question.
We were given life (in the flesh) by God in the beginning (God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. Right?
But that 'life' that we were given is actually NO LIFE at all. We only have LIFE through Christ..... we have to be "born again".... this would be the recieving of the Holy Spirit (signified by Jesus breathing on His disciples). In essence, BOTH "breaths" coming from God... but the 'second coming' :lol: :lol: (just thought of that... hehe) is a 're-birth' :?: ... creating a 'new' creature :!: (born AGAIN)...
Chrissie
Okay I think your mind reader aren't you? (just kidding) Although for never understanding my question you seem to anyway.
The CREATURE is subject to VANITY, CHILDHOOD and YOUTH are VANITY.
I see it as spiritual "ages" He is the Rock of AGES :D One of a CHILD, under the law. Christ being "THE End" of the law itself (WHO has "no end" in Himself, its just WHO He IS). The END "shall come", endure till "THE End" seems more like enduring until HIM as I see it :lol: Job saw THE End OF "The LORD" right?
He declares THE End of the law (HIMSELF) FROM the Beginning (HIMSELF).
I see two "AGES" here (Child and Son?) The End (Himself) WHO is without End? "THE Creature" subject to vanity being liberated "the NEW Creature" they are becoming.
The End of the law, and the Author and FINISHER of our faith, the end of our faith, that God or the fulness of God (Love) be in us. Perfected in love!
What a wonderful God and Savior we have!
Daniel
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Good honest communication going on, I really do appreciate that. Thanks to you all.
The tree of life was guarded by flaming swords, if I am correct, and God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, so they never partook of the tree of life.
Many prophets and good people desired to have what we have, in times past, before the time for Jesus to declare the Father. Jesus declares the Father and the Father declares the Son, by the Holy Spirit in us. No man has ascended to the Father except one, Jesus.
As things in the natural bear witness to the spiritual, as do all things in the spiritual bear witness to the natural. Born physical with a spirit, then follow Jesus and die to be reborn in a new life, which is spirit. His Spirit in us. The first part- body and spirit is a soul, and the second part- our spirit with His Spirit is His body, which is a many membered body.
Strange how it sounds, in the physical, body and spirit is a soul, which sounds spiritual, yet when our spirit is baptized in His Spirit it is called a body. But still no matter how you look at it, 1 plus 1 is still 2.
That's just my two cents worth, if its worth that much, :lol:
God bless,
Gary