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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: AK4 on October 25, 2008, 04:06:08 AM
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Is there anything stronger than this the illusion of "free will"--with every doctrine and almost every religion this will link. I have thought hard about this and this "free will" links to them all. They all link to the thought of free will.
Dont say hell please, yes it may be the most dispicable but its not in alot of religions, so no hell is not the strong(est) delusion. In almost all i have researched free will is in them all
Thoughts are welcomed
Anthony
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Anthony,
My vote is for free will as the most pernicious.
George.
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Anthony, Yes, I agree free will would have to be the one. I didn't even know before God leading me to truth, that I was trying to save myself. Does not get much terrible then that. Here, I would think about New Agers thinking they were a God to themselves. Little did I know, I thought I was one too. I thought, I had the will to do right. He sure had to bring me into what I would call my worse fall towards him. I felt such guilt I felt unpossible to be forgiven.
He gave me victory over it but I still did not feel forgiven. Hating Hell and Myself brought me to Ray's website. You definitely the Self-Will is a delusion. Seeing that man fall is painful indeed. All, kind of things come flooding into you spirit when you learn the truth. After, I have learned I am sure he has let Satan test me by people who send me things from the Babylon teachings or just sometimes when I see scriptures that Babylon taught a certain way. Yes, defintiely the Old Self-Will likes to reclaim its seat. Now, I understand Greater is he who is in you then who is in the world. Yep, he has to take the self-will out of us and put himself in its rightful place.
In His Love,
Marlene
P.S. I know I have plenty of growing to do. But, he sure did give me his victory on things my self-will has tried to do for years. He sure did give me alot to think about. Seeing that beast was really something.
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I think free will is a great delusion but I do have to say hell is right up there.
Christian hell
Jewish hell
Islam hell
greek hell
hindu hell
babylonian hell
egyptian hell
these all preach the myth of hell, according to Ray. the christian hell is a christian hoax.
just a thought.
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I believe that Free Will is the great delusion in many religions but not ALL of them.
Many scientists and atheists and some new age beliefs acrually do not believe in free will. They believe that free will is a delusion of mankind. Even Adams the author of "Dilbert" does not believe in it.
Free Will however is the big kahuna of stumbling blocks, it negates God's Sovereignty
(Psa 4:2) Sons of men! till when is my glory for shame? Ye love a vain thing, ye seek a lie. Selah.
beloved
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God has placed "obscurity" in our hearts to NOT know what He is doing. This is a process, purpose and Plan of God that He alone can show or reveal to who HE chooses, His Ways and Thoughts. So the delusion that we have free moral agency is upon us all at first because God has bound us up in vanity according to HIS Purpose.
For me, Free Will is not the delusion. It is the IDOL of the wicked heart.
Arc.
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I think free will is a great delusion but I do have to say hell is right up there.
Christian hell
Jewish hell
Islam hell
greek hell
hindu hell
babylonian hell
egyptian hell
these all preach the myth of hell, according to Ray. the christian hell is a christian hoax.
just a thought.
Yes Ray mentions some but not all... For example reincarnation--some believe in that hell is now "hell on earth" or hell may be in that lifetime you are reincarnated until you learn your lesson. When Jesus came that was it... So in otherwords you can CHOOSE in that lifetime to come to Him or not by learning from your past from other lifetimes. Once again free will is put in the situation....
Christian hell---choose to come to God or not
Jewish hell---- same--and some other bizarre stuff i have heard
Islam hell--- Dont believe Jesus is the Son of God--they can choose that or not
greek hell---same as christian hell
hindu hell --can choose to follow budahs teachings or choose the alternative
babylonian hell---traditional christainity and all its nonsense
egyptian hell---same
Now atheists--- There is no God and if there was i wouldnt want to be forced to love him because that is not love
Same thing for agnostics, some catholics, protestants, new agers, etc
Islamists-- believe in hell-- but if they choose to serve only allah then heaven for them
And all other religions and their gods---- "if i choose to do what they want and honor the spirits" etc, etc
See it all falls under man "choosing" what they want or choosing what they think may be true
I am not preaching but did we choose to follow Rays teachings on our own?
Take away the illusion of free will and you only have one will---Gods
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Hindu do not believe in Buddha, they believe in reincarnation into lower castes if bad higher one if you are good.
Arcturus hit the nail...it is the idol of your heart that is at work...even the atheist or philosopher who DO NOT believe in hell or free will, they themselves are deluded by themselves...they mistake knowledge for WISDOM.
(Isa 48:4) From my knowing that thou art obstinate, And a sinew of iron thy neck, And thy forehead brass,
(Isa 48:5) And I declare to thee from that time, Before it cometh I have caused thee to hear, Lest thou say, `Mine idol hath done them, And my graven image, And my molten image did command them.
(Isa 48:6) Thou hast heard, see the whole of it, And ye, do ye not declare? I have caused thee to hear new things from this time, And things reserved that ye knew not.
beloved
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As Ray pointed out look at Peter and Paul and the apostles---they thought they could do differently from Gods will. Pharaoh and king of babylon--which has prophetic implications
i could link link this with verses but there is no need to for us.
I guess my point is---with all that we have learned, what can not be linked to "free will"
You take away free will then what doctine can you come up with?
Nothing that i can think of. No thought can even be conceived of without "free will"
I am not saying we have free will. I am saying the illusion of it makes mankind come up with these convoluted ideas about Gods will. But if you takes away that "free will" you can only come up with the one WILL that is true.
Anthony
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Hindu do not believe in Buddha, they believe in reincarnation into lower castes if bad higher one if you are good.
Arcturus hit the nail...it is the idol of your heart that is at work...even the atheist or philosopher who DO NOT believe in hell or free will, they themselves are deluded by themselves...they mistake knowledge for WISDOM.
(Isa 48:4) From my knowing that thou art obstinate, And a sinew of iron thy neck, And thy forehead brass,
(Isa 48:5) And I declare to thee from that time, Before it cometh I have caused thee to hear, Lest thou say, `Mine idol hath done them, And my graven image, And my molten image did command them.
(Isa 48:6) Thou hast heard, see the whole of it, And ye, do ye not declare? I have caused thee to hear new things from this time, And things reserved that ye knew not.
beloved
Hinduism, Budism, Confusionism and what ever ism, they all basically believe in self. I do not debate the scriptures they are true. Yes it may be an idol of the heart and that is only proving my point. Free will has to be at least the strongest of the delusion--- i am not saying it is the only delusion.
Is there a stronger delusion than free will? Where free will has no play in it?
i am wanting to see if there is? So far i dont see that.
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Most Christians simply cannot conceive of us not having free will.
Free will is the loop hole that allows God to burn people alive forever and yet have no blood on His hands!
You would sooner convince them that there's no trinity than no free will.
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Im sorry i am harping on it.... and this is not my pet peeve either---but can anyone tell me, is there one doctrine/religion that has no link to free will
Anthony
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I don't think the trinity doctrine has a link to free will.
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I don't think the trinity doctrine has a link to free will.
LOL i knew that would be the one that would come up....Its 5 oclock in the morning but i do i have an answer from Rays paper that will take that away so i will answer that when i wake up
Thats the one i thought of when i thought of when typing that post
Traditional christainity thinks that God is a closed family (in their own free will/thought) but God is creating a family--all of humanity.
In their own minds their free will, i wont generalise, but the trinity doctrine people believe that they can come to Jesus on their own.
Now lets say they didnt believe that, what does the trinity doctrine do...oh so much besides divide--- "we are the true church" "we will the ones who are raptured" (pretrib or post trib) and it does something else but it eludes me right now-- im sleepy--- but overall their illusion of free will makes them feel they are the true church, are the ones who will be raptured and something else and its all because of their free will to choose the right church and come to Jesus on their own and be saved on their own free will (they chose Him and not Him choosing them) and etc etc etc.
Anthony
ps i tried anwering it while still awake--silly me ;D
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The trinity doctrine may encourage all kinds of other golden calves but it doesn't rely on the free will doctrine to exist.
You're not talking how the free will doctrine contributes to other doctrines are you?
are you just talking about other doctrines that need free will to exist?
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The trinity doctrine may encourage all kinds of other golden calves but it doesn't rely on the free will doctrine to exist .
You're not talking how the free will doctrine contributes to other doctrines are you?
are you just talking about other doctrines that need free will to exist?
Ah but it does,
Rene descartes remember what he said "cogito ergo sum"
(Latin: "I think, therefore I am.
The Trinity is the ultimate assumption that man has the ability to understand God It came straight out of Greek thinking being the counterpart of tripartite human body: soul body and spirit
Another example as Ray would say...they hate the Truth
What part of "One" do they not understand
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Yahweh, is our God,-Yahweh alone.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
No matter how much the Word said One.....
they chose to believe in at first........ two then .....three, .....then the Nicean Creed...where you choose to believe trinity or you are declared a heretic...and then burned so you could get an early start in hell.
beloved
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and that "Hell" was for eternity! :D
All go against God's Will and not one can thwart His Plan.
Arc
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Oky doky!
I forgot about the whole body soul and spirit comparison to the trinity thing.
I haven't thought about the trinity for such a long time.
Whilst I did believe in it, it was nothing for me to give it up as an idol.
It was never really a big part of my understanding.
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Anthony,
My vote is for free will as the most pernicious.
George.
Now dangit George, you know old Longhorn here dont have a clue what pernicious means. ;D
Love in Christ
Longhorn
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The trinity doctrine may encourage all kinds of other golden calves but it doesn't rely on the free will doctrine to exist .
You're not talking how the free will doctrine contributes to other doctrines are you?
are you just talking about other doctrines that need free will to exist?
Ah but it does,
Rene descartes remember what he said "cogito ergo sum"
(Latin: "I think, therefore I am.
The Trinity is the ultimate assumption that man has the ability to understand God It came straight out of Greek thinking being the counterpart of tripartite human body: soul body and spirit
Another example as Ray would say...they hate the Truth
What part of "One" do they not understand
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Yahweh, is our God,-Yahweh alone.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
No matter how much the Word said One.....
they chose to believe in at first........ two then .....three, .....then the Nicean Creed...where you choose to believe trinity or you are declared a heretic...and then burned so you could get an early start in hell.
beloved
Thanks for doing the leg work for me Beloved :)
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I hope you noticed that I put these two verses because Ray specifically pointed them out. He says, they both cannot be right, The Holy Spitit cannot be separate it is the Father who is the Father of Our Lord Jesus.
(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Jesus is now totally spiritually one with the Father and He was also with the Father in the beginning. Jeusu is the physical image of the Father to us physically and therefor for us He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Our High Priest and Savior. He can and will come again.
One One One
You have to really study so you can deal with this particular false doctrine...they will argue it up and down . Many wil not let this one go easily so you are blessed Longhorn in that it did not get so entrenched in it. I was certainly was and working the two into one took even more work.
beloved
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longhorn,
Here are some definitions of pernicious; i was not talking about the drinking part. LOL.
George.
Main Entry: per·ni·cious
Pronunciation: \pər-ˈni-shəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin perniciosus, from pernicies destruction, from per- + nec-, nex violent death — more at noxious
Date: 15th century
1: highly injurious or destructive : deadly
2archaic : wicked
— per·ni·cious·ly adverb
— per·ni·cious·ness noun
synonyms pernicious , baneful , noxious , deleterious , detrimental mean exceedingly harmful. pernicious implies irreparable harm done through evil or insidious corrupting or undermining <the claim that pornography has a pernicious effect on society>. baneful implies injury through poisoning or destroying <the baneful notion that discipline destroys creativity>. noxious applies to what is both offensive and injurious to the health of a body or mind <noxious chemical fumes>. deleterious applies to what has an often unsuspected harmful effect <a diet found to have deleterious effects>. detrimental implies obvious harmfulness to something specified <the detrimental effects of excessive drinking>.
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;D ;D George
Now you gave Longhorn another word to worry about BANEFUL ;D ;D ;D
Ignore it Lornghorn and read the rest of the definition that George provided....you will get it. ;D ;D ;D
I forgot that one myself....baneful it does not come up in many of my conversations whereas pernicious does for me occasionlly ...pernicious anemia, a vit b12 defieiciency caused by serious stomach disorder and/or diet defieicy.
You can use it around your ranch...you can look for dem pernious polecats now.
Your a hoot Longhorn thanks for bringing me back down to earth.
beloved
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longhorn,
You Brother; you have probably (and i am fairly certain) earned more onion skin than i will ever
see in this life. I don't know why in tarnation you start acting so ossified and ornery. Anyway
someday we need to hook up and swap a cup or two of swamp sludge.
George.
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longhorn,
Here are some definitions of pernicious; i was not talking about the drinking part. LOL.
George.
Main Entry: per·ni·cious
Pronunciation: \pər-ˈni-shəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin perniciosus, from pernicies destruction, from per- + nec-, nex violent death — more at noxious
Date: 15th century
1: highly injurious or destructive : deadly
2archaic : wicked
— per·ni·cious·ly adverb
— per·ni·cious·ness noun
synonyms pernicious , baneful , noxious , deleterious , detrimental mean exceedingly harmful. pernicious implies irreparable harm done through evil or insidious corrupting or undermining <the claim that pornography has a pernicious effect on society>. baneful implies injury through poisoning or destroying <the baneful notion that discipline destroys creativity>. noxious applies to what is both offensive and injurious to the health of a body or mind <noxious chemical fumes>. deleterious applies to what has an often unsuspected harmful effect <a diet found to have deleterious effects>. detrimental implies obvious harmfulness to something specified <the detrimental effects of excessive drinking>.
That describes my ex-wife. You still didn't give the definition of Pernicious. ;D
Love in Christ
Longhorn
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AK4 said: “Is there anything stronger than this the illusion of "free will"--with every doctrine and almost every religion this will link. I have thought hard about this and this "free will" links to them all. They all link to the thought of free will."
Here’s one particular voicing that Ray has given concerning free-will AK4.
Ray: “I will show that free will is indeed an "idol of the heart" which needs to be repented of. And of all man’s sacred cows, free will is the most sacred of all. It is undoubtedly the most difficult doctrine in man’s walk with God to acknowledge and give up. And though neither science nor Holy Scripture know anything of a power called "free will," most will continue to defend it even in the light of a mountain of Scriptural proof that contradicts it at every turn.”
“And of all man’s sacred cows, free will is the most sacred of all.”
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
“Sacred” doesn’t have to be explained. So, it would appear that “free-will” ranks high in terms of “illusion”. And notice he did say “all”.
Seems in-line with most all religions, and even Ray says the atheist crowd is in agreement with free-will.
A.
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It's true that it is an extremely difficult idol to give up.
Even after you come to the truth that you do not have free will, it is still very hard to not have the attitude that goes along with it.
For example, trying to do things in the flesh and feeling proud about the thing you have learnt even though they are nothing to do with you.
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Martinez,
Pride cometh before a falling away. We are all falling away and giving that Man of sin notice of eviction.
george.
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Martinez,
Pride cometh before a falling away. We are all falling away and giving that Man of sin notice of eviction.
george.
Very glad about that one George, I really hate that guy!
;D
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misconception, misbelief, an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Delusions centering on one's own importance, such as believing that one has done or created something of extreme value or has a "special mission, A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, An erroneous perception of reality. (from any good bible dictionary, thesaurus, dictionary ......
Basically the F L E S H .
Could also be E G O or SELF Esteem!....lots of good bible dictionaries out there :D
Arc
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Arc,
Thanks for your always timely comments and quotes, i do read and use (incorporate) them in my gestalt going forward. :)
Love Peace Knowledge Understanding,
george. :-*
misconception, misbelief, an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Delusions centering on one's own importance, such as believing that one has done or created something of extreme value or has a "special mission, A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, An erroneous perception of reality. (from any good bible dictionary, thesaurus, dictionary ......
Basically the F L E S H .
Could also be E G O or SELF Esteem!....lots of good bible dictionaries out there :D
Arc
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Trying to be precise about this but here you goes.
per⋅ni⋅cious /pərˈnɪʃəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [per-nish-uhs] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. causing insidious harm or ruin; ruinous; injurious; hurtful: pernicious teachings; a pernicious lie.
2. deadly; fatal: a pernicious disease.
3. Obsolete. evil; wicked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1515–25; < L perniciōsus ruinous, equiv. to pernici(ēs) ruin (per- per- + -nici-, comb. form of nex death, murder (s. nec-) + -iēs n. suffix) + -ōsus -ous
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
longhorn,
Here are some definitions of pernicious; i was not talking about the drinking part. LOL.
George.
Main Entry: per·ni·cious
Pronunciation: \pər-ˈni-shəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin perniciosus, from pernicies destruction, from per- + nec-, nex violent death — more at noxious
Date: 15th century
1: highly injurious or destructive : deadly
2archaic : wicked
— per·ni·cious·ly adverb
— per·ni·cious·ness noun
synonyms pernicious , baneful , noxious , deleterious , detrimental mean exceedingly harmful. pernicious implies irreparable harm done through evil or insidious corrupting or undermining <the claim that pornography has a pernicious effect on society>. baneful implies injury through poisoning or destroying <the baneful notion that discipline destroys creativity>. noxious applies to what is both offensive and injurious to the health of a body or mind <noxious chemical fumes>. deleterious applies to what has an often unsuspected harmful effect <a diet found to have deleterious effects>. detrimental implies obvious harmfulness to something specified <the detrimental effects of excessive drinking>.
That describes my ex-wife. You still didn't give the definition of Pernicious. ;D
Love in Christ
Longhorn
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misconception, misbelief, an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Delusions centering on one's own importance, such as believing that one has done or created something of extreme value or has a "special mission, A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, An erroneous perception of reality. (from any good bible dictionary, thesaurus, dictionary ......
Basically the F L E S H .
Could also be E G O or SELF Esteem!....lots of good bible dictionaries out there :D
Arc
AYE........
an over-inflated sense of self-worth = E G O or SELF Esteem .... ;D
Rodger
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Rodger,
My ego has been crushed for a while now, Thanks Be To God. Now i realize that not i But Christ In me is All in All To
The Glory Of God The Father.
george.
misconception, misbelief, an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Delusions centering on one's own importance, such as believing that one has done or created something of extreme value or has a "special mission, A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, An erroneous perception of reality. (from any good bible dictionary, thesaurus, dictionary ......
Basically the F L E S H .
Could also be E G O or SELF Esteem!....lots of good bible dictionaries out there :D
Arc
AYE........
an over-inflated sense of self-worth = E G O or SELF Esteem .... ;D
Rodger
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yes, the doctrine of ""freewill"" creates all kinds of delusions. :'(
peace
chuckt