bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Loverly on February 15, 2014, 08:38:13 PM
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The last couple of months have been interesting to say the least after finding Bible Truths.com. I had studied a lot the past 2 years so when I found Ray's teaching it all fell into place why I wasn't finding any Christendom doctrine really at all in my studying!
So with that said of course I was excited about it and told my childhood girlfriend about the site. She immediately told me she couldn't talk with me about this stuff. So our communication went from every day e-mailing about life to nothing at all really since that was annoying to be told I can't talk about Scriptures with a fundamentalist! lol
Then recently a big name Dean of Fine Arts from my university died and they put a webcast on of the funeral. I made comments on all of the heresy in it. My friend's mother in law had died a few days before and so I guess she read the post on FB. About a week later she informed me she was no longer going to keep me on FB because she said I was "negative" and my beliefs were "offensive and I was insensitive for posting those comments. LOL I didn't even bother to respond. Was just so funny to get such an arrogant message.
Then another lady that is about 15 years older then me from the same exact childhood church (still the same pastor) posted something about the KJV only etc. I simply commented on how it's not completely accurate etc. Tried to keep it light. She went nuts too. When I asked about innocent babies, retarded people, people who have never heard and pregnant women going to hell she told me those were "foolish questions". LOL She said that "God will have mercy on the weak." When I told her "EXACTLY! He will! He will save everyone!" Oh boy....she unleashed it on me for that. :)
The funniest part of her rant was that she said, "Jesus preached to people in hell!" and used Lazarus and the right man in hell parable. I couldn't believe it! I gotta good laugh from that one. Oh the garbage that they pass along to these people as truth!
Both gave me the cop out that God knows everything and they didn't when I started to ask logical tough questions about their doctrines and it was easier to write long rants and hateful emails to me rather than taking two whole minutes to go online and look up a few greek words to see if I was right or not!
They told me they would not learn Greek or look anything up and that they would stick only with the KJV. Both completely blocked me on FB for believing that God wasn't going to torture people forever and asking them "foolish questions"!
Anyone want to take their places? LOL I have more openings for people that aren't offended by a God that will SAVE ALL OF HIS CREATION! :)
Hugs!
Loverly
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Thank you for sharing, Loverly. It's a miracle that God has blinded so many people to simple truths. 2 Thes. 2:11 And for this reason God will send a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness
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Hi, Loverly,
I had similar experiences too, these people really believe these horrible deceitful things they were taught. Be careful because some can get vicious , I mean you can almost see the venom coming out of their mouth.
I always remember if God is not calling them they will not believe these wonderful truths we have not only learned here but also have excepted them too.
I have read some of Rays E- mails and find it difficult to comprehend their disbelief after Ray puts a ton of proof in front of them.
But I also know inwardly if God does not open ones eyes they simply cannot believe. So God is not dealing with those people now but thank God one day He will and that to me is the GOOD NEWS sister, God is going to save all.
There was a time I was one of them believing in hell and other false doctrines but God open my eyes to the lies and allowed me to see the goodness of our God and how great He is. No doubt He is WONDERFUL and one day all will know how great our God is, no I mean how GREAT OUR GOD is.
Peace and love to all. :) :) :)
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Yes, and I think "strong delusion" should have been capitalized or something in the original! It's a HUGE delusion!
Both know that I love God and study my Bible a lot and as a friend it's unthinkable that they wouldn't even bother to look up one word but choose to block and shun me (after knowing me for YEARS).
Just is really amazing how much they really do hate truth and anyone that knows or speaks truth. I didn't do it out of hate either believe me to prove them wrong etc. Just was sharing what God was teaching me.
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Yes, Rick they do have so much hate and arrogance. This is the third person (including my own mother) who has totally berated me in the past two months.
I was in Christendom my entire life... but always I was upset about the hell thing. Last couple of years I was waking up crying every night over my son. Just didn't like the whole idea of it and told God about it many times! These don't even have compassion or seem to be upset at all about anyone going to hell!
Sort of freaky to say the least that they can't even shed one tear over anyone. My daughter and I were weeping often and it was really affecting our daily lives thinking about so many being tortured. We are at peace now. :)
Yes, Ray's emails are amazing. People just scathing in their comments to him and never any Scripture to back anything up!
On a good note...last night my 19 year old son (who hasn't believe in hell WAY before me and my daughter) had a lovely talk about it all.
Yes, He is GREAT! 8)
Like you he's been so lovingly guiding my life and showing me truth step by step after the sand castle was flattened! I will be happy too for all to know Him! Won't they all be surprised with such an amazing happy ending? :D hahahahaha
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John 15:18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
v. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Just thought this really fits with this topic.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hadn't you been given eyes to see and a friend of yours came up to you telling you about the nonexistence of hell and the salvation of all, you too would shun your friend. Their reaction is not weird. It is to be expected by us.
I now see that what's also to be expected is our attitude of disbelief when we see in others the same blindness that used to plague our lives.
"Oh the garbage that they pass along to these people as truth!"
We used to swallow this same garbage hook, line and sinker before. :-\
Let us not allow a spirit of provocation get the best of us.
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Loverly, they believe themselves to be right not because they read what they know and believe from the scriptures but because they chose to believe what they were told what the scriptures say.
When I had first read Rays papers and saw all the scriptures he use in making his point, God had open my eyes at that time to these truths I was reading.
I remember this past summer being at a pool party and there was a couple who had also attended the pool party as well and this particular couple were very religious folks. They were talking about God to everyone there and so I had joined the conversation.......LOL
I went on to explain to this couple some of the things I was learning here at B.T. everything seem to be peaceful and fine at the time but when I started explaining to them about how excited I was to learn that HELL was a Christian hoax they became upset and said to me many things before getting up and literally leaving the pool party,
I remembered when I was apart of Christendom I use to have a great fear of death because I honestly believed in hell and being a sinner I believed it was my destiny until I came across Rays papers.
Believe it or not but in this life there are some people who derive pleasure in thinking that many people are going to hell after death to be eternally tortured without any hope of ever being released but they themselves feel exempt because they believe themselves to be righteous.
One thing about the blind, the blind are really blind , they cannot see and because they cannot see they cannot except God’s truths. :(
Anyways, it amazing to me that God chose me to understand some of these truths and for that, I am most thankful for.
Peace and love to all. :)
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Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jhn 8:31-32
Then, you are the true Jew....... :)
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Folks can get nasty when you tell them the wonderful truths of God. I haven't had anyone react in that manner, but a lot of people seem to just scoff and ignore what I have to say when I talk about it. I also have had people, including a pastor in a very conservative church, say that they would like it if what I said was true, but they know what their Bible says and don't want to take any chances.
That's a big thing in churches today. I think a lot of pastors know the truth deep down, but they choose to keep it a secret out of fear. Some fear the consequences of being wrong about that doctrine, some fear that their congregation will shrink which means less $$$ in their paychecks, some fear ridicule and loss of respect from their peers, etc.
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Our food is not their food. One mans food is another mans poison. What looks to the spider to be order, is to the fly, chaos. Its chalk and cheese, Oil and water yet YET, Ray identifies a very important point about the fruit on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Ray explains. ITS THE SAME FRUIT!
There is a tree here in Africa known for its fruit that makes Elephants drunk. It can be quite funny, if you keep your distance that is, to see drunk Elephants. Christendom is reveling in dead drunken carousing blindness, seeing double and unable to walk the strait line!
It is one thing to know good and evil, and quite another to take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever, or to be rescued by the Grace of God to recover from the inebriated conditions of false teachings inherit in all religions. Hell is a hoax, Ray has exhibited very well for those not so drunk. Whilst in recovery, steer clear of drunk elephants. They don't only live in Africa!
You can't tell a drunk person, they're drunk! Only a getting sober person can hear, and they won't like it! You have to tell them something else and God knows what that is! God really does know ~
Arc
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All these things happen and you soon know who your friends are
Pro 18:24 A man of many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.
John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
John 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
That's the friendship I want
Rhys
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Loverly, it took just a few minutes of reading to know that what I was reading was true. But that "instant" came after decades of 'hearing' those scriptures and questioning the contradiction in the overall message. In other words, I COULD NOT have believed had I not been exposed to and believed that 'other' gospel any more than I COULD believe unless somebody (Ray Smith) was kind and foolish enough to preach it and God was Good enough to let me hear and believe and repent. I am so glad that all their time is coming, and they will be to when it does and they repent. Then 'life' begins with all it's troubles and joys and remembering and repenting.
ALL Glory to God, for without HIM, there would be NO message of Good Things. Without HIM, there would be nothing at all. All of this is His. ;D
It's 'now' that I'm learning in the course of living life that every other word Jesus said, and through His Apostles, is also true. His words are Spirit, and they are LIFE. Hang on! The ride may be bumpy, but you will live it. ;D
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Hi Loverly,
Ray expresses so beautifully the wonder of finding out that even if you shine a huge light into the eyes of a blind person, they still will not see.
Ray also gave us a saying that went something like this : to convince a person against their will is to leave them with their same opinion still.
There are a variety of places throughout Rays teachings that carry the same theme. Another one to enjoy is the relief from the guilt trip taught by Christianity to go out and win souls for Jesus!
You were honest with your daughter and that kind of example teaches what the best Seminaries have yet to learn. :)
Arc
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You're right Loverly. There comes a time when people close to us will know the truths that we espouse. And it is God who ordains the time and the outcome.
The only one time I shared the truth soon after finding BT was with a friend who was already disillusioned with the church system. I had told her at the time that the institutional church was unbiblical and had introduced her to Frank Viola's Pagan Christianity, which she devoured. So I assumed that she was ready for another dose of truth, but when I told her that hell also was unbiblical, she got upset, instead she referred me to a book on hell . So I posted back some unsavoury reviews I'd read about the book and asked if she had read the book herself. She hadn't, but she wouldn't even read Ray's paper that I had read myself and was recommending as a friend.
These days I avoid church folk and if I do meet them, I steer clear of their christian jargon. The other day, a young lady I met said that she had just become a believer. Earlier I would have responded with 'Halelujah, Praise God!'. Instead, I smiled back in response, nodding my head for a very long moment before saying, 'so you've left the church. This is just the start, not the end, God has alot of work to be perfected in you, and it's not going to be easy all the time.'
Nowadays, I keep company with the ungodly. It's refreshing after so many years in Christendom. Isn't that what Jesus did, kept company with the pharisees and drinkers. :) There is this tension in Christendom between fellowshipping with believers and ministering to the unbelievers. Most churches, also the one I attended briefly, were very insular. Sundays, weekdays, celebrations were confined to the church members. Others try to achieve a balance by meeting on Sundays for spiritual food as they called it and then going out into the world during the week. Try as I did, I couldn't do either.
Thank God, I can just BE.
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Thanks Loretta, well said and helpful.
I'll bet you can expound even further on this topic and I for one would appreciate hearing of your experiences.
Regards, Indiana Bob
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Arcturus,
...I simply was talking with my two friends whom I've always talked with about Yeshua MANY times before...
Hello Loverly, I take it from the above statement that your two friends in question referred to JESUS the Son of God as Yeshua when they would hold these conversations with you? I was wondering if the entire congregation you fellowshipped with did the same thing? When I was part of CHRISTendom, I learned that the usual people that referred to Jesus as Yeshua were the so called Messianic Jews.
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Matthew 22 The Parable of the Wedding Feast
1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants1 to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
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In a few words my friend"Many are the call but few are the chosen! Tim
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Hi Loverly
I found the more involved I was in the church the more judgmental and self righteous I became. When God led me out and took off the blinders...wow. My best friend is in the church system; we don't judge our beliefs. We just appreciate each other and don't let religion get in the way. Thank God for that. I put the info out there for family and friends (conversation, direct them to BT etc) and let them be directed by God's will. As Arc quoted from Ray: " to convince a person against their will is to leave them with their same opinion still. "
I try to "love thy neighbour" and let God take care of the rest in His time. Ray stated in his paper on the different types of love something to the affect....doesn't mean you have to be their best friend or socialize with them.
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I'll bet you can expound even further on this topic and I for one would appreciate hearing of your experiences.
Bet that ungodly bit got your attention, Bob! ;)
Ah, not so interesting this life of mine. Hubby is a beer guzzler and mother is the pharisee. That's about it! :)
But sure I shall share my ocassional experience whenever.
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Dear Loretta,
We are praying for you, that you may be strong in your trials and forgiving of all offenses:
Bob
= = =
Suffering for God’s Glory
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.[d] On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.[e]
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”[f]
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
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Thank you Bob, I so need prayer in those two areas.
God knows I have issues. :)
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In a few words my friend"Many are the call but few are the chosen! Tim
;) You got it buddy! I went with the many words. I just like that passage.
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Hadn't you been given eyes to see and a friend of yours came up to you telling you about the nonexistence of hell and the salvation of all, you too would shun your friend. Their reaction is not weird. It is to be expected by us.
I now see that what's also to be expected is our attitude of disbelief when we see in others the same blindness that used to plague our lives.
"Oh the garbage that they pass along to these people as truth!"
We used to swallow this same garbage hook, line and sinker before. :-\
Let us not allow a spirit of provocation get the best of us.
Good Point! I used to seek out debate; admittedly, I experienced much enjoyment in fruitless debates that helped no one-it only boosted my pride in my own knowledge... And then I found Bible truths and I arm still so embarrassed by my actions. I'm not saying that is what is going on here...but this whole thread hit home for me and I have been struggling with the opposite problem for a time.
I don't want to be in endless debates or do anything that is not of God. I fear sometimes I do not speak up when I should in order to prevent the issues it would cause. I'm always thinking of the verse of not to throw my pearls before swine but I don't see my friends, family or coworkers as "swine," I love them and would really enjoy talking about the stuff I'm learning. I test the waters from time to time gently stating a belief or truth I've learned to see if the conversation can continue. When people say they don't agree, tease me for being silly or just ignore me, I take that as a sign that God is not leading and I stop...sometimes I worry this is cowardly...that I work too heard to blend in, keep the peace and I feel it has affected me negatively in a spiritual way.. I don't think I understand how to boldly proclaim the truth at this time.
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Hadn't you been given eyes to see and a friend of yours came up to you telling you about the nonexistence of hell and the salvation of all, you too would shun your friend. Their reaction is not weird. It is to be expected by us.
I now see that what's also to be expected is our attitude of disbelief when we see in others the same blindness that used to plague our lives.
"Oh the garbage that they pass along to these people as truth!"
We used to swallow this same garbage hook, line and sinker before. :-\
Let us not allow a spirit of provocation get the best of us.
Good Point! I used to seek out debate; admittedly, I experienced much enjoyment in fruitless debates that helped no one-it only boosted my pride in my own knowledge... And then I found Bible truths and I arm still so embarrassed by my actions. I'm not saying that is what is going on here...but this whole thread hit home for me and I have been struggling with the opposite problem for a time.
I don't want to be in endless debates or do anything that is not of God. I fear sometimes I do not speak up when I should in order to prevent the issues it would cause. I'm always thinking of the verse of not to throw my pearls before swine but I don't see my friends, family or coworkers as "swine," I love them and would really enjoy talking about the stuff I'm learning. I test the waters from time to time gently stating a belief or truth I've learned to see if the conversation can continue. When people say they don't agree, tease me for being silly or just ignore me, I take that as a sign that God is not leading and I stop...sometimes I worry this is cowardly...that I work too heard to blend in, keep the peace and I feel it has affected me negatively in a spiritual way.. I don't think I understand how to boldly proclaim the truth at this time.
Hi Reg,
Greetings!
As long as they cannot refute you, then why worry?
Let God do the rest, the most important thing is you informed the truth. :)
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Hi Reg,
I believe that the Spirit will lead us to stand up for this truth when we need to. We are all have different type of personalities, some will interject themselves into conversations and voice their opinion about this truth. That has never been my style and I don't believe I should necessarily force myself to do what I see others doing, but let the Spirit show me what to do. We have to be careful that our boldly proclaiming truth is to the glory of God, and not more on the lines of boosting to others what we think we know.
John 7:18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.
If the Spirit wants us to stand up for the truth, then we cannot resist Him working in/through us, it will move us when to speak, as it is teaching us we will do the will of God. The Apostles were delivered up before judges, I see us as more like being delivered up before family, friends and coworkers, if we are put on the spot God will give us the answer to speak.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak;
v. 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. Mark 13:11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate[3] what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
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Hello Reg,
I hear ya! Been there, done that. I think when we debate others about these truths in a boastful manner, God is doing a work in us. It's a phase, a part of the process of His teaching us to be patient towards others, just as He has been patient with us. Like Kat said, our proclaiming the truth should be done to glorify our Father, not to show others wrong. Even when we have proven them wrong, they still can't "see" it. No verse proofing on our part will ever convince them.
I have a friend at work who initiated our conversations about God. He attends a large Hispanic evangelical church and has even invited me to go. I have told him a thing or two and showed him the scripture verses. He asks me questions, I answer them. If the Lord wills it, this guy's eyes could be opened. But I don't push it.
The verse about the swine is an analogy. It doesn't mean that your friends/family are swine. It means that they would treat God's truths in the same way that swine would treat pearls cast on their path. God's truths are "pearls" to us, not to the unbelievers. Therefore, we love them and treasure them and meditate on them. :)
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Always good to share
Heb 13:16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
Share the good things God had done in word and deed
1Ti 6:18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
1Ti 6:19 thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.
Rhys
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Proverbs 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
I think we can know when it is the right time to say something or not.
If we are lead by the Spirit of God he will use us to plant a seed (word) in the heart of someone he is dealing with on some level we know nothing about.
And we may or may not see anything come fruition as far as that person is concerned. The key is to be willing and obedient when the time comes.
Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Joel
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A personal opinion lacking scriptural backup. More can be said. You should follow the Jehovah's Witnesses example of going door to door with their message. It's a better approach. I've taken the message of the gospel in rural areas in a third-world country where people couldn't even read or write. We would go house to house down the dusty roads. People always welcomed us. But we never antagonized anybody or showed them how wrong they were. You could bore anybody to death with the cleverest of arguments without ever making a dent on their hardened heart.
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Many things said in this thread make me grind my spiritual teeth. Just false Christian slop.
The billions of Christians alive today do not follow Jesus. Christians in name only. Don't follow the example of any of them.
Some facts:
While in the flesh, Jesus never converted a single person. No one was converted until after Jesus' death, at Pentecost, when they received God's Spirit.
Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables, to hide His teachings, so that none would understand Him.
Jesus said only the Father could drag a person to Jesus. None could come to Jesus on their own, by their own choice.
Now if Jesus couldn't do any of the above, how can I? I'm not in the salvation business. Jesus is Savior.
So I do not witness for Jesus, or any of the other crazy stuff that the mainline Christians or the funnymentalists do.
I do observe what they do, then I do the opposite. I don't attend church, or go to their bible studies. I do not speak like them. I do not do any of their so-called "good works". I do not witness for the lord, or any of the other crap they do. Away with all that nonsense!
Jesus says, Come out of her MY people. Come out does not mean go in and associate with their false ways.
Let Jesus be Jesus. He'll save everyone, eventually, at their appointed time. Jesus will save them. That's what He does.
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It is not for any of us to judge what the other should or shouldn't do, it is the Spirit that lead any of us in what to do.
Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
v. 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
v. 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
If the Spirit puts it on your heart then you will speak this truth to whom so ever God wills, it's all according to His will.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Agree John but:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
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Agree John but:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
So yes, there is a time to profess our faith, but we should not be doing it out of an attitude of arrogance or "self righteousness" so as to show others how "holy" we are.
Eccl. 3:1,7 - "To all things there is an appointed time.......vs.7 "a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." (GNV)
1Cor. 13:1 - "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (ESV)
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Agree John but:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Yes, I agree fully with that Scripture. But of the times I've been asked, they don't like to hear. Except, my youngest son seems to understand what I say about no free will.
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Agree John but:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Hello Dennis,
this is what I now do. If someone asks me something about God or the Bible, I try to respond. The preaching I did that I mentioned above was when I was in my teens, attending an evangelical church.
It astonishes me to see how effective is the strong delusion that God sends to men. On one occasion that I took a bus to get to my destination, a lady sitting in front of me gave me a little booklet about God. I asked her which church she attended. She told me and her face lit up because I showed some interest. I asked her if she believed in the existence of hell. She replied "Of course!" I said to her, do you realize that according to the Christian church, the majority of humankind will end up in hell? She explained that people choose to go to hell. I probed even further by asking her, if only ONE person came to know Jesus Christ out of the whole world, would you consider that a victory for Christ? Of course she answered Yes!
I shook my head, and she was clearly upset with me at this point. She didn't speak to me anymore.
I remember when I used to travel from my city to the capital in my country to learn English, there was almost always some lone person that would get in the bus and start preaching to the rest of us that were waiting for the bus to depart. These guys were persistent and focused. Nothing ever dissuaded them from their task. However, I never saw ANYONE being converted. Now I understand why.
Zechariah 4:6 Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Rodge
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John, I agree with what you are saying, but in reference to your last sentence remember that He does choose to do this through the "foolishness of preaching". So that means that someone somewhere will be witnessing. I think the problem lies in the interpretation of the word "witnessing". In my opinion, I would call Ray a witness, but I never thought that he was a mirror image of today's Christianity.
I believe there is a way God wants us to witness and there is a way modern Christianity teaches us to witness. (And keep in mind, what they witness is not to the truth.)
As far as myself, I don't talk about what I believe very much. Why should I? Most heretics can defend their position a heck of a lot better than I can right now. As Ray said in one of his videos, He can teach on tithing and get you to tithe better than some of the ministers of today. (He did follow that up with he'd have to lie to do it.) I'm just not that good yet. I have pointed people to this website who have thought it was garbage. If their eyes are not open to what they see here there is nothing I can say that will convince them otherwise. Their eyes simply haven't been opened.
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i also don't speak about what i believe unless someone asks me, or if the subject of "church" comes up with family members. but, with regards to the whole witnessing about the gospel to others, we have to remember these verses:
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." 1 corinthians 3:5-9
this scripture appears to be saying that all believers are fellow laborers in planting and watering the seeds of Truth we have been given through the Spirit of God and His Word. and it ALL is caused by God.
you can point a flashlight right into the eyes of a blind man and he still cannot see. you can yell and scream in the ear of a deaf man and he still cannot hear. yes. ALL is of the Father.
claudia
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Most of us who have been around for many years have learned the hard way to keep quiet unless asked.
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1Co 1:21 For, seeing that, in the wisdom of God, the world, through its wisdom, did not get to know God, God was well-pleased—through the foolishness of the thing proclaimed, to save them that believe.
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Certainly each of us should strive to understand these truths so that we can give an answer if asked. I think that requires us to feed the Spirit with study of the Word, meditation and pray.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But it does seem that very few are given the gift to become a teacher/preacher like Ray to explain these things so well to others. "He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers" (Eph 4:11).
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For some reason although it wasn't hard Dennis' response made me remember this.
TL;DR Witnessing didn't work.
It was circa 1982. I had moved a few towns away from my job and would commute by bus every day. After a while you got to see the same people every day. I was head over heels in love with Jesus. (my first love although I didn't know it at the time) I carried my Bible and read it daily on the bus for the 40 min commute.
There was a guy I later found out was a lawyer who rode the bus every day with me. It was kind of like going to church and sitting in the same pew. We all sat in the same seats each day, and he was always sitting in the seat across the aisle from me. He made a comment about my Bible one day, and we started talking. Turns out he didn't believe in God. The more we talked the more excited I got. Gotta admit I can get passionate about some things.
I hadn't been "born again" for my first year yet and I was still in gotta save the world mode. Having had a rather checkered past it was that much more important to share what I had found with the world. After all, it was my duty to help save them from hell.
I was getting so exasperated, because for the life of me I could not understand how someone could believe there was no God. At one point, I looked up and can't imagine the look on my face. There were about 25 - 30 people on the bus, and each and every one of them had turned in their seats and were enjoying our exchange.
Long story short......These people had been seeing me 5 days a week for almost a year. NOT ONE came up to me with a question or comment about anything I had said. That doesn't mean a seed hadn't been planted, but regardless they weren't seeds of truth.
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Seems like there are many excuses in this post about not sharing which I don't understand as it's a joy to share the truth and not the lies of Christendom.
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Of course God has His roles for all of us but all of them don't excuse one for not sharing the good news and it is good news. The church teaches it's bad news yet still call it good news when it's not. Who cares if they get it or not as God said His word shall go forth and not return empty.
I feel sad for all Ray did when I hear such comments as he seemed a man that spoke up to what God was doing in him without the excuses.
Always speak His truth in love whenever you can
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Paul and the disciples went out there and spoke the word so why not us. Maybe because it's difficult and hard we don't but the persecution should be part of our lives
Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
I'm not sure how you get persecuted from people who ask you about the hope you have, that's never happened to me. The times when I get persecuted are when I take a stand and say that's not right because this is what God's word says. Other than those times I don't experience persecution but maybe others get persecuted some other way......don't know. It seems that's what happened to the disciples.
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2Ti 4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Does not seem to hard to understand. I wonder why we just don't do what the word says, that's what I admired about Ray as that is what he did so why not do the same. I think I know why in the next verses:
Mar 4:3 "Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow.
Mar 4:4 And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
Mar 4:5 Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil.
Mar 4:6 And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:7 Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
Mar 4:8 And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
Mar 4:9 And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.
Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
Mar 4:12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."
Mar 4:13 And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
Mar 4:14 The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
Mar 4:16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.
Mar 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
Mar 4:18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,
Mar 4:19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
As Ray says from Winning souls for Jesus
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
I'm asked why I teach the Truths of God if "All is of God," and God does all the choosing and drawing? Because that is HOW God operates. God uses the foolishness of preaching as one of His means by which He communicates with His Elect:
"Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:20-21).
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
I feel that our life and our words should share the good news, live it and speak it. This email from Ray covers it for me
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10897.msg94142.html#msg94142
i've been reading your website for over a year now and i feel like a blind person who has recieved sight. so sorry to hear about your condition and you're in my prayers. i've heard i think it's B17 in apricot seeds (the nut part inside the seed) can actually heal cancerous cells. you can buy them by the bag-full in most asian markets, although i'm sure your kung-fu friend would have told you about them if there's any validity to this rumour.
i really want to thank you for the very extensive work you've put into your writing. the first time i opening up your website, i read for a few minutes and had to stop and pray right away because i was scared. i could tell there was something to this and i was scared it was satan who had planted the many questions in my head that lead me to your site, and scared that it was satan who led me to your site. but after reading with a critical eye for months, i finally allowed myself to relax and really absorb the truth. i want to shout from the rooftops about how very good the good news is, but something holds me back. in particular, i want to use my facebook status to tell people how amazing Gods love really is. this might sounds silly to you but of course God can use the silliness of facebook to teach us about himself too. i was just wondering if i SHOULD be shouting from the rooftops, or just being salt and light and letting the holy spirit do its work? i'm not bothered in the least if i don't hear from you. rest, pray and wait on the lord. (maybe that should be the advice to me?)
GOD BLESS YOU MR. SMITH!
-Vicki
Dear Vicki: There are numerous people who use a plethora of methods to introduce others to our Bible-Truths site. I don't discourage anyone from showing others the Truths of God by whatever method they feel comfortable in using. You might receive some persecution, but hey, that's one of the blessings that come along with defending and obeying our Lord. There is no better defense of the Gospel than one's own OBEDIENCE and KNOWLEDGE. Peter said we are to be ready always to have the proper answers and information regarding what we believe and why we believe it.
May God be with you always,
Ray
I know for me I need to get out of the church mindset that you must share or else but rather come from a place of joy and love that His truth has set you free in. That seems something you want to share and would love to do. God will do His will but what joy there is when He uses us to do it through so why not take the opportunities when they come. That is what I see in Ray.
Rhys
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I feel sad for all Ray did when I hear such comments as he seemed a man that spoke up to what God was doing in him without the excuses.
I feel sad that you made this comment. Ray is dead and he did all that God intended him to do. God is very much ALIVE and in control and HE will finish the work in us. :)
René
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I feel sad for all Ray did when I hear such comments as he seemed a man that spoke up to what God was doing in him without the excuses.
I feel sad that you made this comment. Ray is dead and he did all that God intended him to do. God is very much ALIVE and in control and HE will finish the work in us. :)
René
:)
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after all my years as a member of this forum, it seems that the direction of it is going more to airing our differences and disputing, than coming together in the joy and love and inspiration of the Spirit which our Father God gave to us. ray smith's work and study was a tool our Father provided for all who comes to this website. ray was a man of God who is now gone. the Spirit of our Father has so much more for us to discover. but we have to go to His Word daily, keeping it in the forefront of our minds. there is so much power and might and saving grace in the wonderful Spirit of God! where is the inspiration? where is the lifting each other up as spoken of in the scriptures? is it only available in the "testimonies/prayers/fellowship section"? that section is used as much for funny jokes as it is for prayer requests or testimonies. what is going on???
claudia
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I think how one views the forum is a matter of perspective, we each see it from our own frame of reference, how we are feeling about things. There is a large difference in the knowledge of truth in those who come here, some just having their eyes opened to those studying these truths for years.
I think that there are many productive discussions that go on here, even when there is a element of disagreement in them. But God's Spirit is certainly here and is working to teach us We grow by learning from our mistakes, if we study and get the basic principles down we can learn to discern this truth from heresy. We have to patiently allow for all that come here. Some being new to this truth, but I know that I'm still working out different aspects of the truth in my mind while here on the forum. We all have had some very differing life experiences and so there's differences, and discussing them is one of the best way I have found to come to a good/better understanding of something.
We just need to let the Spirit work as it will, not necessarily the way we think it should be doing.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I think how one views the forum is a matter of perspective, we each see it from our own frame of reference, how we are feeling about things. There is a large difference in the knowledge of truth in those who come here, some just having their eyes opened to those studying these truths for years.
Agreed. All is of God.
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SECOND VERSE--SAME AS THE FIRST!
6 years after being introduced to this site--I have had the same experience as lovely "Loverly"!
My attacks are just as vicious and digging as the day I proclaimed to be a "B-T'er"!
My sister's just attacked me yesterday for having the audacity to say that:
"Jesus IS the Savior of the World" and will NOT fail! (No sense going on and on as you all have experienced it!)
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I found this from Rays writings, winning souls for Jesus ( Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.)
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Hadn't you been given eyes to see and a friend of yours came up to you telling you about the nonexistence of hell and the salvation of all, you too would shun your friend. Their reaction is not weird. It is to be expected by us.
I now see that what's also to be expected is our attitude of disbelief when we see in others the same blindness that used to plague our lives.
"Oh the garbage that they pass along to these people as truth!"
We used to swallow this same garbage hook, line and sinker before.
Let us not allow a spirit of provocation get the best of us.
I agree with you .... we all swallowed it, I think we all have to, until we get called out of it, that is by the grace of God alone. So let us be thankful, His mercies endure forever, let us not be prideful or arrogant toward those who are still to be called - Jesus wept for Jerusalem or the world system which is passing .We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves ,Gods children are his - righteous and unrighteous, so who are we except sons and daughters of the most high by Grace we are being saved.When exposure is needed we expose however we are to do it gently and with Love.Who can say your own doing brought you understanding or to this site. Ray was a vessel and used, we cannot possibly begin to understand his suffering. We were all blinded like Paul we were all led into the fire and we will all be saved.
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Remember family, these folks cant help, but be blind.
Once I found this truth out I have stopped or been stopped from getting into arguments and quarrels, my own wife included.
Remember the 1st miracle, we are mere vessels, being filled with Jesus, The Word, then once filled with the water of the word, we are turned/changed into wine,then we are given to the Father to sample - no doubt we will taste good ... in his time not ours.
Pride does come /arrive, before a fall
walking in His grace
Ian
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Hello Ian. I for one, experienced this disbelief that how could other Christians not see what I was now seeing. I'm certain that others have experienced it too. I will not say that a 100% of people whose eyes God has opened to the truth go through the same thing. But a good number of us have.
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I was thinking about the words Preaching and Teaching.
According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:
Kērussein [to preach] does not mean the delivery of a learned and edifying or hortatory discourse in well-chosen words and a pleasant voice. It is the declaration of an event. Its true sense is “to proclaim” (III:683-718).
Friedrich, the author of this article on Preaching in this dictionary, shows that the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles was the proclamation that the Kingdom of God had arrived. Their “preaching” was not educational, seeking to impart an ever-growing knowledge of the Scriptures upon the hearers, but was closer to the task of a herald who traveled throughout the land, declaring that changes were coming from the king, and what these changes meant for the people of the kingdom.
Preaching was this declaration, this proclamation, that the Kingdom of God had arrived.
According to the author, the preaching of Jesus “did not expound the Scripture like the rabbis. He did not tell people what they must do. His teaching was proclamation. He declared what God was doing among them today” (III:713).
Friedrich explains the differences between teaching and preaching:
"Teaching is usually in the synagogue, whereas proclamation takes place anywhere in the open. Different hearers are present. Teaching is the exposition of Scripture in synagogue worship; it is for the righteous with a view to increasing their knowledge. Preaching is the herald’s cry ringing out in the streets and villages in houses. The herald goes to all, to publicans and sinners; he attracts the attention of those who are without and who do not attend the gatherings of the righteous" (III:713).
The message preached was the message announced, the message taught was the message explained, clarified, and applied, with exhortation to live by it.
I think I read somewhere that he whose eyes are opened must have been a part of Babylon. In this way, he must heed God's call to "come out of her [Babylon] my people".
If we are to preach or herald, what would we preach? Would we preach the nearness of the kingdom of God? would we preach universal reconciliation? maybe we could buy some air time at a local AM radio station and do this? I used to "preach" like this with my former pastor every Saturday night after the service.
In my case, no former inhabitant of Babylon came up to me preaching universal reconciliation, the nonexistence of hell, etc., etc. In my opinion, God led me, via the internet, to bible-truths.com and Mike Vinson's website. After having read some papers of Ray, I confronted Ray via email and DESTROYED his claims. Well, so I thought! Hehehe! I could kind of accept God reconciling ALL PEOPLE, but the Adversary and his minions? What a heresy!!! But good old Ray shot back an email that put me in my place. I stood chided and corrected. Yes, I received a dose of Ray's bluntness. I can laugh about it now, but at the time, I was seeing red! How dare this guy?! I mean, who the heck was he? God's means to reach me, of course!
So, I suppose that it was Ray Smith's HERESIES' EXPOSING PAPERS (TEACHING? CLARIFICATION OF SCRIPTURES? NOT PREACHING!) the means used by God to open my eyes. Having said this, I am confident that God had begun this work in me some good while before I ran into Ray's papers.
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I think I would rather go with "Instructions" or "instructor " a few translations call Jesus, Teacher
Psalm 40 v 10 I have not kept the good news of your justice hidden in my heart; I have talked about your faithfulness and saving power. I have told everyone in the great assembly of your unfailing love and faithfulness.
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Hi Loverly
I lost what I thought was a best friend over talking about these things. We both went to the
same church for years. Sometimes I think of all the wasted time that I spent sitting in church
just for the sake of being there.
My son never made a profession of faith when we were in church. It worried me to no end.
I felt like a failure as his dad, now I think that he was just more honest than the rest of us.
Felix