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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Nickreading1984 on February 27, 2013, 03:37:33 PM
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So here's some of the questions I need answered
So, I brought universalism before Darwin Fish and he shot it down pretty quick. I wanted to establish contact with one of his students because his videos tend to be a lot longer than they need to be. I figured I'd just run this stuff past you in point form. I'd appreciate a VERY straight-forward answer. Ray's videos and such wander all over the place.
1) In Ray's video series "Do you fear God?" He concludes by saying, repeatedly, that he does not. Isn't that blasphemy? Isn't it repeatedly stated in the scriptures that one should fear God? Fear God and keep his commandments for this is man's all?
-2 corinthians 5:11
"Knowing, therefore the TERROR of the lord"
2) What do you do with verses like this:
- Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake
Some to everlasting life
Others to shame and everlasting contempt
Doesn't everlasting mean it'll last forever?
-Revelation 22:11
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still
-Matthew 25:41
"Into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
-Jeremiah 20:11
"Their everlasting confusion will NEVER be forgotten"
3) Ray says that people will be able to repent while experiencing "Hell". I think I've found at least one verse that says otherwise
-Proverbs 1:28
"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer"
It seems wisdom is saying that there will be no repentance in Hell
4) About Lazarus and the rich man:
Ray says it's part of a five-part-parable; but I've heard it argued that
a) even if it were a parable, Parables are true stories that have parallel meanings. If Jesus says that there was a certain rich man and someone says "No there wasn't" you're calling Christ a liar.
b) It actually wasn't part of a 5-part parable. He told a couple parables to the masses and then, to his disciples and to the pharisees, he talked about the law and the prophets and then talked about divorce. What was parabolic about that?
5) explain the whole "aonian" thing as briefly as possible. the following is from atruechurch.info How can you read that and tell me that the torment won't be eternal?
They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Some may want to argue over words (1 Timothy 6:4) and argue against the words "forever and ever." The Greek words translated, "forever and ever," in Revelation 20:10 are tous aiônas tôn aiônôn. These same exact words are used for God's eternal glory (Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11; 5:11; Revelation 1:6; 5:13; 7:12), for Christ's eternal living, never ever to experience death again (Revelation 1:18), for God who lives forever and ever (Revelation 4:9-10; 10:6; 15:7), for Christ's eternal reign (Revelation 11:15), for eternal smoke (Revelation 19:3), and the eternal reign of the saints (Revelation 22:5).
-How can you read that and tell me that the torment won't be eternal?
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Hi Nickreading1984,
Question number 1) 1John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
2) Here is one of Ray's emails (there are numerous other on this topic): It matters not what "virtually all Greeks" believe today regarding ancient words of the past. The question is, How were they used and understood at the time of the writing of the Greek Scriptures?
Is there anywhere in Classical Greek literature, for example, where "aion" and later "aionios" meant "eternity" or "endless time?" No, no there isn't. People send me "translations" of Classical Greek in which the Greek "aionios" is translated into the English "eternal" as PROOF that this word means and MEANT eternal in the past. Oh really? You might just as well quote to me the the King James Bible if one thinks such nonsense is proof. They try to show that the Greek gods were "eternal." Excuse me, but THE GREEK GODS COULD DIE!! Didn't Zeus KILL his own father?
Or better yet is when someone shows me a modern dictionary definition of such words as "timeless" or "ageless" and suggests that these words mean eternity. Where did these dictionaries get their definitions for such words? From THEOLOGIANS, that's where. And these are the ONLY cases in dictionaries where the suffix "-less" means "more." "Ageless" is LESS THAN AN AGE, not eternity. Something that is "timeless" is not eternal, but rather HAS NO TIME. And this is because "No adjective can take on a different or greater meaning that the noun from which it is derived." An "age" is never suggested to be "eternity" in Scriptures. In fact, the very concept of eternity is foreign to the Scriptures. Instead we have phrases such as "has NO END," and "immortality."
As for there being no Greek scholars who believe that aions are not ages, but eternity, just read my paper on "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural" in which I cite many Greek and Hebrew Scholars who understand perfectly well that aionios never meant "eternal" in ancient Greece. http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3195.0.html
3) Here is another translation (GNB): Pro 1:28 Then you will call for wisdom, but I (wisdom) will not answer. You may look for me (wisdom) everywhere, but you will not find me (wisdom).
4) Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
5) Here is another email: Yes, of course, I knew exactly what Mr. Hagee meant by "forever and forever and forever." He is saying that when the Bible says "forever," it really means: "forever and forever and forever and forever and forever and forever....eternally." But that is not what "forever" means in the Bible. If "forever" means eternity, then what sense is there in adding eternities on top of eternities? There is only one eternity. There is no such phrase as "for ever and ever" in the Greek manuscripts. It is "aions of the aions" or "ages of the ages." It is not ages "and" ages, nor is it ages "upon" ages, nor is it ages "after" ages. It is genitive and it must be translated "ages OF the ages," which has absolutely nothing to do with eternity.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7863.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Less time copying and pasting from other websites and more time actually reading what is written here, in the Word of God and praying to the Lord for eyes and ears.
God be with you,
Alex
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Hey Nick - We all had similar questions,
1] dont be offended if answers come across a 'little in your face" this is going to stop your quest for the truth
2] go and check out the papers that Ray Has written
3] and keep asking and submitting questions
5]You did not arrive by accident
regarding you questions, Kat summarized all the answers, now you need to go and study them - Ask the lord to open up the scriptures to you as the disciples did
be blessed as you discover the truths of Gods word
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Ian 155: I'm not offended by things coming across as in my face. I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake. I'd really just like it if one of Ray's personal students could get in touch with me via E-mail.
Kat: The other translation of not finding wisdom anywhere doesn't make wisdom any less elusive after destruction and calamity (which I'm told means Hell). Also, if it means "Ages of the ages" what the heck does that mean?
Everyone: thanks for your help. I'm gonna need loads more.
-Nick
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An age - 1 : the length of time during which a being or thing has lived or existed 2 : the time of life at which some particular qualification is achieved; esp : majority 3 : the latter part of life 4 : a long time 5 : a period in history (Merriam-Webster)
So the the expression ages of the ages means multiplied ages/time periods.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ian 155: I'm not offended by things coming across as in my face. I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake. I'd really just like it if one of Ray's personal students could get in touch with me via E-mail.
Kat: The other translation of not finding wisdom anywhere doesn't make wisdom any less elusive after destruction and calamity (which I'm told means Hell). Also, if it means "Ages of the ages" what the heck does that mean?
Everyone: thanks for your help. I'm gonna need loads more.
-Nick
By God mate...
Being destroyed or a state of destruction is not the end of all things.
There is redemption for those that are destroyed.
As ray pointed out many times before;
"The word translated "lost" is the Greek word "apollumi" which is translated "LOST," "PERISHED," and "DESTROYED." Jesus Christ said that He is come to SAVE all those who are "apollumi"--destroyed, perished, and lost."
Jesus came TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST [apollumi ->>> DESTROYED!]" (Mark 18:11; Luke 19:10).
We are not going to fight your battles for you. Stop trying to wrestle a serpent. You're wasting your time and your breathe and in the end it is all vanity.
All the answers you seek, all the ways in which to declare the reason for your hope to the men who ask it of you will come in time, God's time. You won't convince anyone of anything and you certainly won't turn anyone by shoving this information down there throats. There is a reason paul said; "Be ready to give an answer for the reason of your hope to those who ASK you."
ASK you for it. Don't go looking for fights or to trying to argue. You have so much to learn and like the rest of us, you'll learn the hard way.
God be with you,
Alex
P.S. Calamity does NOT mean hell [Hades/Shaol] , it's the same word translated from/as EVIL, It means evil. God created "Calamity" remember? Isaiah declared it.
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I'd appreciate a VERY straight-forward answer. Ray's videos and such wander all over the place.
Here's a "straight answer" for you... Stop trying to argue about things that you clearly do not yet understand, especially, with those who are vessels of dishonor. If you were truly seeking out the Treasures in the Field for TRUE Spiritual growth....You would know that Ray's videos absolutely wander NOT! But, are actually, in fact bursting with profound Scriptural wealth and direction.
Start with Ray's TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm) ...Study these principles constantly and pray without cease....and you will take to the LIVING WATER like a fish to the sea. We've all been where your at now, but, please understand...debating only strokes an intellectual vanity, and like religion can only offer, at best, a temporary hysterical revolution within the listener, one of which is easily blown this-way-and-that-way by the winds of doctrine or scientific inquiry. Sincerely what ALL OF OUR FOCUS needs to be on... is JESUS CHRIST, in whom is found the ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL REGENERATION. Peace to you Nick.
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...I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake.
nick, what the heck do you mean by the portion of your statement i bolded above??? the talking with darwin fish part i understand, but "for zeus' sake" has me stumped. are you referring to the zeus of the pagans?
claudia
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...I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake.
nick, what the heck do you mean by the portion of your statement i bolded above??? the talking with darwin fish part i understand, but "for zeus' sake" has me stumped. are you referring to the zeus of the pagans?
claudia
Claudia, I believe he only meant it as a figure of speech, in replace of taking the Lord's name in vain.
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Claudia: It's just a Joke. It's like saying "For Ch***t's sake, only not offensive. It's an expletive.
Alex & Metamic: You say that debate is pointless and all that, and I appreciate the firmness of your tones, but doesn't Jude 3 instruct the faithful to contend for the faith?
I'm still really worried that all this stuff is too good to be true. I admit right now: I'm double-minded as all get-out. I wake up agnostic, scare myself into believing in Hell (because you'll go there if you don't believe in it, don'cha know) and then come here to see... I don't know... if I can just prove to myself it's not there.
I'm a friggin' mess.
-Nick
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thanks for the explanation nick. glad i checked rather than just assumed. i can relate to the "friggin' mess" feeling you mentioned. i remember after reading the bt website the first time about 7 yrs ago all i could do was say out loud, "oh my God, oh my God, oh my God" repeatedly after each new article i read. i was raised all my life in the southern baptist tradition of men and i could not believe what i was reading. i mean, how could this all be true?? it was so opposed to everything i had ever learned in church.
now i say, "thank you God, thank you God, thank you God" repeatedly. nothing God does is by chance nick. nothing. no thing. ever.
i hope you will linger on the bt website and forum so you can continue to read and study the many Truths of the Holy Scriptures contained here. i believe that if you do so, one day you will come to truly understand the uselessness of debate on Scriptural and Spiritual matters. if you are ever approached and need to contend for the faith which God has given you, His Spirit will supply the words to speak so that God is glorified. not you, not the other person, just God.
claudia
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only not offensive. It's an expletive.
Your discretion is appreciated. :D
Alex & Metamic: You say that debate is pointless and all that, and I appreciate the firmness of your tones, but doesn't Jude 3 instruct the faithful to contend for the faith?
Is that verse addressing our "struggle" with other people's opinions? I don't think so.
We are to mortify "our flesh" - "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13 )
- We are to bring our (own) flesh into submission. What's the value of winning a debate? First, you have to calm your own storm before you can possibly have a leg to stand on against any detractors of the FAITH. ;)
study this verse a few hours "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2)
I'm still really worried that all this stuff is too good to be true. I admit right now: I'm double-minded as all get-out. I wake up agnostic, scare myself into believing in Hell (because you'll go there if you don't believe in it, don'cha know) and then come here to see... I don't know... if I can just prove to myself it's not there.
I'm a friggin' mess.
Brother, just Pray and read through all of the material on the main site, and also all of the emails to Ray, and I'm confident that with time you will find harmony and grow spiritually.
all this stuff is too good to be true.
Now, you know why it's called "THE GOOD NEWS" ;D
John from Kentucky is absolutely correct when he says "Study the articles here. Don't take Ray's words and teaching alone. Study the scriptures he cites, and see that the witness of two or three scriptures opens to you the scriptural truths in all things, all as guided by the Great Sovereign God Who created all things, and Who will never accept failure of any kind."
Like I stated earlier, start with Ray's TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD. It truly is a key to Scriptural understanding.
You're here asking questions, so you're already heading in the right direction.
Brother, don't fear the pagan "hell", or any of that nonsense. But, also don't "just believe" to get a "reward" or some golden ticket to enter into some Star-Trek like utopian "heaven-planet" .... But, LOVE your CREATOR because HE Loved you first. HE created everything, and everyone. "we -- we love HIM, because HE -- HE first loved us;" (1 John 4:19)
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of all thy soul, and out of all thy strength, and out of all thy understanding, and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27)
:)
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now i say, "thank you God, thank you God, thank you God" repeatedly. nothing God does is by chance nick. nothing. no thing. ever.
i hope you will linger on the bt website and forum so you can continue to read and study the many Truths of the Holy Scriptures contained here.
Amen Claudia! And Nick, I also hope that you will continue to read and study here.
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http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
This is probably the most concise explanation of the use of 'aions' or 'eons' and its derivatives on B-T.
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Hi Nick,
I'm still really worried that all this stuff is too good to be true. I admit right now: I'm double-minded as all get-out. I wake up agnostic, scare myself into believing in Hell (because you'll go there if you don't believe in it, don'cha know) and then come here to see... I don't know... if I can just prove to myself it's not there.
Hell is a man made doctrine that is suppose to scare you into complying with the rest of the church doctrines.
Now in order to prove the truth of the Scriptures, will require effort on your part, a lot of effort. You have laid out before you here numerous articles that will help you build a solid foundation of understanding, but it will take quite a bit of time for you to study through them and meditate on it all, to let this truth take root. What it takes is pray, study, meditation and more pray. It's a process and there are no short cuts.
So if you really want to have understanding, then get away from the confusion of Babylon and start studying :)
Mat 13:44 The kingdom of heaven (truth, love and joy and all the fruits of the Spirit) is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found (it takes a lot of digging and work to get to it), and hid (in his heart); and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath (because all the physical things in life are of no value to him any more), and buyeth that field (because he wants it and never wants to loose it).
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks, guys. but, about the fear thing. Phil 2:12 says that believers should work out their salvation with fear and trembling. I know perfect love drives out all fear, but Ecc 12:13 still COMMMANDS to fear God and keep his commandments.
I can't help but think I'm talking to a bunch of vipers, of whom it can be said that there is no fear of God before their eyes (romans 3:18)
I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire
-Nick
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I can't help but think I'm talking to a bunch of vipers, of whom it can be said that there is no fear of God before their eyes (romans 3:18)
Fear of God is an Old Testament expression for Respect and Reverence for God. And is said to be the very beginning of knowledge Proverbs 1:7 and Job 28:28.
People without God are spiritually dead and produce bad fruit on a path of destruction.
Nick you are pulling one scripture out of the whole book and basing doctrine on it. You need an understanding of all scripture and 2 or 3 witnesses to any one particular scripture to claim it as a truth. You also must study the meaning of the words in scripture. This is not a simple, or easy process as there is 2-3 thousand years between what was written and what was finally translated. If you really believe God is going to burn you and your loved ones in hellfire for eternity then go for it. I've been where you are and it is not a fun place, and goes against the good news that Jesus talked about. Nowhere in scripture do I read you must believe in hellfire to be saved, but maybe you do.
Craig
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[Ray Replies]
Dear Michael:
You ask: "Why would GOD force a person, that by his own will and lifestyle chose to live apart from GOD, to live with GOD for Eternity? Would that be Heaven for that individual?"
ANSWER: Your question ASSUMES things that aren't Biblically true. Did you ever live a lifestyle APART from God? Do you now live a lifestyle WITH God? How did that transition come about? Did you ALL ON YOUR OWN, one day come to decide that you wanted to live WITH God as opposed to APART from God? Did you make that choice, without a cause, and INDEPENDENTLY of God's supernatural intervention? I don't have to ask, because I already know the answer, and the answer will be the same for all non-believers in the future.
Paul tells us that "NOT ONE is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11).
No one seeks God until God calls them to begin seeking. Jesus Christ plain stated that
"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be DRAWING HIM" (John 6:44 & 65)
I fully realize that most of Christendom including such greats as Billy Graham absolutely DENY this Scripture, but it is true nonetheless. It stands to reason if only those who are called and chosen (by the way, only Jesus does the choosing also:
"NOT YOU choose Me, but I CHOOSE YOU..." John 15:16)
can only be such when God chooses, then those who are NOT CHOSEN OR CALLED of God CANNOT of their own will come to God, choose God, or decide to live a lifestyle WITH God and opposed to APART from God. There is the Scriptural answer to your questions.
God only chooses SOME now--not all. But it is His will to call and choose ALL MANKIND in the future.
"God WILLS that ALL mankind be SAVED..." (I Tim. 2:4).
And "Thy WILL BE DONE..." (Matt. 6:10).
For God IS LOVE (I John 4:8), and
"LOVE NEVER FAILS...." (I Cor. 13:10).
So part of the problem is that your question contains errors of though. God doesn't FORCE people to worship Him, He opens up their minds and hearts so that they DESIRE TO WORSHIP HIM!
Again, Paul was inspired of God to write:
"Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial [those in the heavens] and terrestrial [those on the earth] and subterranean [all the billions who will be resurrected from the dead and be judged at the white throne and purged by God who is a consuming FIRE, Rev. 20:11-15],and every tongue should be ACCLAIMING [this is a heart-felt voluntary acclamation] that Jesus Christ IS LORD [And NO ONE IS ABLE TO SAY 'LORD IS JESUS' EXCEPT BY HOLY SPIRIT!!], to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:9-11).
God desires, WILLS, and is quite capable of saving ALL OF HIS CREATURES. It is UNSCRIPTURAL to suggest that God won't save all: It is BLASPHEMY to suggest that He can't save all!
I hope this helps your understanding a little. Most Christians look at the NOW, the HERE, the PAST and PRESENT in deciding who GOT saved and who is GETTING saved. They fail utterly to look to the FUTURE when God sets His hand to save ALL.
Remember that thing about Passover, then the "waveshief"--Christ, then Pentecost, the "firstfruits," those who God is now calling of the nations? Did we forget THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES AND THE LAST GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST? The GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS?
God be with you as you submit to His calling and His will.
Sincerely,
Ray
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I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire
-Nick
Nick,
What is your Father like. If he is/was a harsh and evil man I suppose it's understandable that you might think that God is the same. If you have a good father ask yourself if your dad wants you to be afraid of him or if your old enough to be a father yourself would you want your son to be afraid of you? And would you want your son to respect and obey you only because he felt you were going to take a belt to him and whip him unmercifully? If not, then how could you think a perfect and loving God (Who states in his written word that 'God is love' and 'Love never fails') would want you to obey and worship him because your terrified to death of him? See what this 'hell' teaching of the church has done to you?
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I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire
-Nick
Nick,
What is your Father like. If he is/was a harsh and evil man I suppose it's understandable that you might think that God is the same. If you have a good father ask yourself if your dad wants you to be afraid of him or if your old enough to be a father yourself would you want your son to be afraid of you? And would you want your son to respect and obey you only because he felt you were going to take a belt to him and whip him unmercifully? If not, then how could you think a perfect and loving God (Who states in his written word that 'God is love' and 'Love never fails') would want you to obey and worship him because your terrified to death of him? See what this 'hell' teaching of the church has done to you?
You simply have not lived long enough to fear God out of what He can do and save you from.
Sooner or later a loved one or yourself will be in great distress then you will understand.
This probably will not make sense, but I fear, respect, and am in awe of God but I am not afraid of Him.
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Thanks, guys. but, about the fear thing. Phil 2:12 says that believers should work out their salvation with fear and trembling. I know perfect love drives out all fear, but Ecc 12:13 still COMMMANDS to fear God and keep his commandments.
I can't help but think I'm talking to a bunch of vipers, of whom it can be said that there is no fear of God before their eyes (romans 3:18)
I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire
-Nick
Hi Nick,
Everybody did an excellent Job in explaining my favorite Bible related Topic regarding Aion and it's derivatives Aions(Ages or Eons) and most importantly Aionios, the adjective of Aion which literally means pertaining or belonging to the Ages. An Adjective can't be defined with a totally different meaning than the Noun it's derived from, it would be grammatically incorrect. Alexander Thomson, a Scottish/Irish inventor who happens to be a Greek Etymologist/Linguist that did a thorough word study on Aion & it's derivatives; Aions & Aionios. He included the Latin Aeternus & Seculum in His study and proved conclusively that none of these words meant endless. Ray quotes from Him in His paper entitled: Is Everlasting Scriptural. Ray quotes from Alexander Thomson(s) fine Paper: Whence Eternity ! How Eternity slipped In, I've read that several times and have no doubt that Aionios, the adjective of Aion never means " Endless."
Some quotes from Ray's paper:
Comment: The word "eternal" comes from the Latin "aeternum" which in the first century meant virtually the same as the word "seculum," and in fact, Jerome sometimes rendered "aion" aeternus, and in other places he renders "aion" as seculum. They were considered virtually synonyms. Here is the how Latin dictionaries define, seculum—"a generation, an age, the world, the times, the SPIRIT OF THE TIMES, and a period of a hundred years." (Caps mine).
Trajan, Roman emperor from 98 to 117 AD spoke of seculum as the time he lived in. Tertullian, born about 160 AD refers to "a mighty shock impending over the entire world, and the conclusion of the seculum itself." Lactantius, born about 260 AD speaks of the "learned ones of this seculum." Eusebius, early Church historian, born about 265 AD gives the account of a martyrs’ trail in which Speratus, the martyrs’ leader, replied, "The empire of this seculum [world] I do not recognize."
We read this from the work, Whence Eternity by Scholar and Expert in the Greek language, Alexander Thomson, "Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held, which were called ‘secular’ games. Herodian, the historian, writing in Greek about the end of the second or beginning of the third century, call these ‘eonian’ games. In no sense were the games eternal. Eonian did not mean eternal any more than a seculum meant eternity" (Page 12).
Comment: Yes, "IF" indeed. Let me assure you that "aionios" did not mean "eternal" by the people that "used the language when the Bible was written." If that were true, there would have been no reason whatsoever for Justinian to call a council in 540 wherein he labored to add the word "endless" to the Greek "aionios" life. He knew and conceded that "aionios" was not endless, and so insisted in the Church inserting the word "endless" before it to signify "endless life" and "endless punishment."
Also Nick, you quoted Philippians. 2:12, but forgot to complete the thought expressed in it's fullness by not quoting verse 13, found below.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The fear and trembling in verse 12 is resulting from God working in us. Look at what Paul experienced after God used His Spirit to work in Paul after His conversion, the trials and suffering were not pleasant.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Thanks, guys. but, about the fear thing. Phil 2:12 says that believers should work out their salvation with fear and trembling. I know perfect love drives out all fear, but Ecc 12:13 still COMMMANDS to fear God and keep his commandments.
I can't help but think I'm talking to a bunch of vipers, of whom it can be said that there is no fear of God before their eyes (romans 3:18)
I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire
-Nick
Hi Nick
God's word shows there is no Hell and there is plenty that Ray says about it as well.
From my own experience through life I never really believed in hell when preached in church. I just bought into it as you were suppose to. I've always struggled with the fact that God would accept me and not everyone else. When I sinned and fell short of the mark He was always there to pick me up and I felt His love so strong. It's the I didn't choose Him He has choosen me. So why does He do that for me and not everyone. The thing is he will do it for all. What kind of God would He be otherwise, not a very great one I would say. Seems absurd to me that He would just pick out certain ones for no good reason. Why pick out me I'm definitely nothing special and I know that all to well. I've come to that truth that He will save all because He loves all and nothing will stop Him from doing His will. I've come to know and understand God's love more and more over the last few years and it's amazing how big and vast it is. God is so so so GREAT and when you see it everything falls into place.
God bless you my friend and keep looking to Him and seek Him. You will get there one day as we will all. He's been so loving to me and He will be to you to.
Rhys
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He's been so loving to me and He will be to you to.
If ever there were a simple, concise, and yet, profound way to explain "The Good News", that would be it! Thank you Rhys.
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well, guys, I'm still reading LOF, but the poblem I have with a lot of these rationales is this:
No, it doesn't make sense to me that God would just pick some for eternal life and others for eternal torture. Yes, it seems horrible. But our standard is not God's. IF (notice I say IF) God says that's what he's gonna do; we gotta love it or burn. It's that simple.
So, while I can certainly relate to people saying that God must not send people to Hell if he loves everyone, that's leaning on your own understanding. Cold, hard scripture is all I'm interested in. Thanks.
-Nick
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The LOF series is full of scripture. As others have said, study them. Reasoning FROM scripture serves a good purpose in causing the questions, but Scripture itself gives the answers. It's not given to everybody to believe them, however.
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well, guys, I'm still reading LOF, but the poblem I have with a lot of these rationales is this:
No, it doesn't make sense to me that God would just pick some for eternal life and others for eternal torture. Yes, it seems horrible. But our standard is not God's. IF (notice I say IF) God says that's what he's gonna do; we gotta love it or burn. It's that simple.
So, while I can certainly relate to people saying that God must not send people to Hell if he loves everyone, that's leaning on your own understanding. Cold, hard scripture is all I'm interested in. Thanks.
-Nick
::) Stop trying to rationalize The SCRIPTURES against your current understanding, and let THEM teach you. Nick, you're not interested in what the Scriptures say! You are credulously fooled by thinking the WORD OF GOD is written in English, and you are frustrated, by trying to decipher HIS MYSTERIES within the confines and hard-lines of the English BIBLE alone. The BIBLE was not written in Old English! ...Well good-luck Nick. I do hope you continue your search. But, until your heart is humbled, Knowledge and Wisdom can not take root, and of course ...even this is, will be, ...in HIS time. :)
IF (notice I say IF) God says that's what he's gonna do; we gotta love it or burn. It's that simple.
Nick, many people believe that "spare the rod, spoil the child," is speaking of disciplining your children with a cane, belt or some such "beating" device! But, it isn't. A shepherd's rod is used to direct, lead as in "lead by example", or to put it plainly... To Guide. So, is HIS purpose for judgement really, truly going to be based on "love it or burn"?.........is it "that simple"? Just finish reading the LOF series. ;) Should a "good and loving" parent beat the-hell-out-of their child, simply to enforce their dominion over them? Or, is it possible that a GOOD parent will simply LOVE and GUIDE their offspring, and when needed, CORRECT (Chastise) them. Our FATHER will wash the hell out of all of us for sure, but in (spiritual) fire and with (spiritual) brimstone. But, HIS JUDGEMENTS serves a purpose (torture is the antithesis to MERCY!) Now, it is that simple.
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Ny head really did explode this time. I'm not kidding.
Longhorn
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Ny head really did explode this time. I'm not kidding.
Longhorn
Who's head in New York exploded? ;)
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that's longhorn's head that exploded. again. he's not from n.y. he from texas. the "ny" should be "my". but, longhorn always gets it back together again. just like humpty dumpty. kind of like his brain swirled trying to comprehend what nick was saying, until his head just exploded.
we love our longhorn.
claudia
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lol you guys are a riot
<3 u
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... But, HIS JUDGEMENTS serves a purpose (torture is the antithesis to MERCY!) Now, it is that simple.
thank you metamatic for your post response. i especially like the words you put in parenthesis which i've highlighted in blue above.
God's mercy abides for ever. even into the next age and until all have been saved. any torturing of people on His part would be going against His own character.
claudia
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... But, HIS JUDGEMENTS serves a purpose (torture is the antithesis to MERCY!) Now, it is that simple.
thank you metamatic for your post response. i especially like the words you put in parenthesis which i've highlighted in blue above.
God's mercy abides for ever. even into the next age and until all have been saved. any torturing of people on His part would be going against His own character.
claudia
Amen to that! I'm so grateful that such a schizophrenic God (that overwhelms and replaces any love with torture and spite) is a LIE. Such an unmerciful and hateful God who despises people more than we could ever manage to sink in our own hearts enough to hate (aka: eternally)" DOES NOT EXIST (except in the carnal minds of spiritually depraved individuals/churches)
How simple it is to see, how simple that is once God opens your eyes and grants such profound life changing truth:
Christ taught to LOVE and DO GOOD to our enemies, so I can't help but KNOW with conviction (by studying his actions and teachings in His Word), that He won't be the ultimate hypocrite like these fools would make him out to be in the. Woe to their blasphemy and their coming judgment for teachings such things going against Christ's own teachings about doing Good. Yet, those that are destined to die still teaching such nonsense, God won't torture forever (what an amazing God!), they will ultimately be cleansed and forgiven, but I can't imagine how awful that judgement is going to be, because those that are most sincere about defaming God so severely, will learn just how Just and Measured God's judgements are, but at the same time how terrible a balanced judgement still is...even though many stripes can never be "unlimited" striped (thankfully our true God does have a VALID sense of justice), stomping all over the character of God by turning him into a tyrannical monster, and rolling your eyes and His absolute capability to accomplish ALL He wills and desires is pure folly and I'm so grateful and don't blasphemy God in this way anymore by having such awful beliefs in my heart. (God wills and desires to save all men, to have all come to the knowledge of the truth, to save sinners, to save the world, etc..) and by His own Word, HE WILL HAVE IT COME TO PASS. PERIOD.
I say anyone who tries to rationalize around this simple truth is a liar and so they will "have their part" in the Lake of Fire...I will trust in God's word and His perfect character and capability more than any "religion" or "doctrine" and if somehow against all odds I'm wrong on this point, then I will fail on the side of love-enduring, mercy never ending, and TOTAL victory with Christ's sacrifice; completely actualized for everyone and everything, and if the gates of heaven should somehow be closed against any sincerely seeking soul, and I somehow still have been blessed enough (in light of individual sincerity perhaps?) "make it in", then I'll be the first one sticking my "foot" out to keep those gates swung open a bit longer, and all theology, beliefs, faiths, and knowledge that separate anyone from the Love of God (ultimately speaking) and the Love I have in me from God as He commanded, be DAMNED.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
So HAVE LOVE, and know that the difference between LOVE and HATE is only the biggest difference you can conceptualize, at least it is between REAL LOVE (aka forgiveness, mercy, unconditional, etc...) and the opposite, which is hatred, ETERNALLY. (aka torture for the sake of torture, not correction), it blows my mind that there is even a way to conflate the two concepts, it just amazes me to see now how twisted the scriptures can be for a person who in their mind and heart has already settled in bed comfortably embracing their hatred of others sooo absolutely, so much that it takes place over ever needing to love them as Christ would have us do. So if you must uphold your "knowledge" of eternal hell and judgment so high, know this: YOU ARE NOTHING, as scripture declares it.
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Nicely said there Sunsetdramaking(Brett). Thanks for openess in the way you shared, it blesses me so much to hear stuff like you just mentioned.
That sort of love is something I've been thinking a lot about recently. Especially in the sense of how we relate to another.
John 13:34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.
John 13:35 By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another.
God puts a love in my heart for people and I shouldn't be afraid to show that love. He gives it to us to give it out and so freely you have received so freely give. It's such a beautiful awesome love that you just can't keep it to yourself and when you give it, it feels so good. It's love straight from the heart of God and does so much good to those around us even if they don't thank you for it. It's who God is and shows that we are His disciples. Even when I go through my trials I still give it out and it does me good to, even if I think well what about me, who's there for me and often there is no one. I then think wow! God is using me to show His love to others in a way I never thought I could because it's Him working through me and I'm so blessed that He would use me in anyway.
I go down the track sometimes of getting angry with people and start getting hatred in me. Less and less these days. It seems so pointless to act like this, it steals my joy and never helps those around me. Why ever do it?
Luk 6:31 And as you desire that men should do to you, you do also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if you love those who love you, what thanks do you have? For sinners also love those who love them.
Luk 6:33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks do you have? For sinners also do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if you lend to those of whom you hope to receive, what thanks do you have? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return. And your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil.
So God wants us to do what the verses say above. So lets do it then and love our enemies. What a most evil thought it is that God would expect us to do this but won't do it Himself. It's just vile. God is so much more love than what He puts in me. He wants me to use the love He gives for good. He is perfect love so how much more good is He going to do for all people. When He fills with the love that I'm talking about then you will know and struggle to ever doubt again. God is so great and loving we often just don't see it. He has filled me with such wonderful love at times I just contain it and I truly say Wow! what love is this? It's just the best and I don't find anything that even comes close to matching it. It sets me free and I can be everything the God wants me to be despite anything that I am going through.
Let us rejoice in our God who will not fail us and will save all. One day we will all be surrounded in such awesome beautiful love. It makes me cry thinking about it. It's who God is and one day we will all it see it and be astonished at such beauty.
I'll finish with this verse:
Rom 12:10 In your brotherly love, unto one another, being tenderly affectioned, in honour, unto one another, giving preference;
May God's so perfect, wonderful, awesome love fill each one of you too overflowing.
Rhys
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Sunsetdramaking, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON!
Knuckleheads like darwin fish, and fred phelps (westboro) have nothing of worth to offer, to "any kind" of Christian! GOD'S Name is blasphemed by these unstable minds, and they will find themselves facing the terrible wrath of GOD for attributing such a vicious character to The PRINCE OF PEACE, But unlike they, GOD is MERCIFUL and this "terrible wrath" will be from the LOVING heart of GOD, and ultimately be for the purpose of chastisement (i.e., correction). darwin fish, and fred phelps are small men; small in mind and small in heart—who serve a dark, imaginary and vile despot. Our FATHER is JUST ( 2 Thessalonians 1:6) and HE is LIGHT (1 John 1:5)
Christendom is an old circus, with a multitude of different acts; all of 'em, performing with clowns.
"For, many, will come upon my name, saying—I, am the Christ,—and will, deceive many." (Matthew 24:5)
It's unbelievable that mere humans could honestly believe that THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING would need our money as tbn, creflo dollar, joyce meyer, etc insist that HE does! You can guarantee that all of those lying used car salesmen avoid 1 Timothy 3:3
Equally pathetic are those who confess to have a faith and hope in JESUS CHRIST, but then believe that HE would want HIS GOOD NEWS watered down into these generic oprah approved, self-realization type motivational speeches and positive thinking books! What kind of fluffy "purpose driven" nonsense is that garbage? It isn't even a whiff of the milk of GOD'S WORD! "But they're not greedy like the prosperity hucksters, are they?" :-\ Well, let's see... joel osteen, rick warren and rest of these "christian" deepak cobras are nothing more or less than dyed-in-the-wool humanist. These charismatic "self-help gurus" need to conform to CHRIST (Romans 12:2) and drop their "well-being" tomfoolery! But, it's not in their best interest to stray from what it's ALL really about...
The Financial-Driven Life ...So, not so different from the used car sales men, eh? ;)
Joyce and Joel skip along—hand 'n hand—happily to the Bank of Prosperity, whistling "When The Saints Go Marching In"
...Of course all of this is done with a positive attitude that anticipates a huge withdrawal! ;)
Like Ray said "It's only about the money!"
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While we're cracking bones of those 'mere humans' who are so easily deceived or being the great deceivers, remember, most if not all of us were there before. And that's why we're here now. But you never know, some may go back. Rhys, you have a thread on that very subject. Never say never. Your will is not in control.
As for what started this whole thread about going head to head and 'debating' the grand deceivers, hopefully we've all learned by now that 'debating'......... if put on a scale........ it would be on a sliding scale of -- idiot>>> to <<< fool foolishness --- and we've all been somewhere on that scale at some point.
And besides, Ray has said it many times:
Ecclesiastes 3:1
New International Version (NIV)
A3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
Cross references:Ecclesiastes 3:1 : ver 11, 17; Ecc 8:6
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While we're cracking bones of those 'mere humans' who are so easily deceived or being the great deceivers, remember, most if not all of us were there before. And that's why we're here now. But you never know, some may go back. Rhys, you have a thread on that very subject. Never say never. Your will is not in control.
As for what started this whole thread about going head to head and 'debating' the grand deceivers, hopefully we've all learned by now that 'debating'......... if put on a scale........ it would be on a sliding scale of -- idiot>>> to <<< fool foolishness --- and we've all been somewhere on that scale at some point.
And besides, Ray has said it many times:
Ecclesiastes 3:1
New International Version (NIV)
A3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
Cross references:Ecclesiastes 3:1 : ver 11, 17; Ecc 8:6
Absolutely, this isn't under "our control" of course; not at all!! That's the ENTIRE POINT in fact, but oh' how the Man of Sin (and his "free will") fights bloody tooth and nail for dominion over the throne (of the heart) in a person, and will do anything to not be usurped, not even by the very Words of Christ that contradict that man of sin.
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Ian 155: I'm not offended by things coming across as in my face. I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake. I'd really just like it if one of Ray's personal students could get in touch with me via E-mail.
Kat: The other translation of not finding wisdom anywhere doesn't make wisdom any less elusive after destruction and calamity (which I'm told means Hell). Also, if it means "Ages of the ages" what the heck does that mean?
Everyone: thanks for your help. I'm gonna need loads more.
-Nick
Not finding wisdom anywhere??
Enlightenment is all around us my friend.
God tells us in Genesis who the wisest of all the animals is and that view is basically identical to most of the older religions from which it came. The serpent is used as that icon.
Think esoteric and Kundalini.
Regards
DL
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I NEED AN EDUCATED TEACHER
Isaiah 8:20 Matthew 7:15 Matthew 23:27 Matthew 24:4 Luke 21:8 Luke 21:8
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 1 Thessalonians 5:21 2 Timothy 3:5
While we're cracking bones of those 'mere humans' who are so easily deceived or being the great deceivers, remember, most if not all of us were there before.
All that you wrote is true, thank you Horseman. :) But, I must stress that what I wrote is directed solely against those who fleece their flock and those who blaspheme the Name (the very character) of GOD ALMIGHTY. Not against their respected flocks, for we also came out of this same babylon. My phrase "mere humans" was referring to those so-called "faith leaders" only; and by "mere humans" I am contradicting their self-projected mantles of "wise and mighty". Those men and woman have a sick, and seared conscience: they intentionally exploit the faith, or hardship of others for their own selfish gain. I believe we are to speak boldly against all antichrists———we should follow the example of our Creator and Lord JESUS CHRIST———and drive them all out of the temple! (John 2:15)
Never say never.
So true! We don't know if we are meant to fall away....whether for a season or not, but there is an enormous chasm between this "never say never" and those "having the appearance of godliness", but in actuality it's a facade; they make their living by taking the Lord's Name in vain: "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord." (1Co 11:27)
...Therefore, it's of the utmost importance to discourage anyone from being taught by those bearing that (spiritual) mark of guilt!
Sometimes, I wonder, maybe all those filthy rich, egotistical megalomaniac "faith leaders" are really just atheist pantomiming religion......they must be!......they go far beyond being the "sincere, but sincerely wrong". Those god jockeys can't truly be believers, while at the same time hustling "the least of these" ! (Matthew 25:35-40) Especially, if they have any real confidence in GOD'S WORD: "Not, many teachers, become ye, my brethren, knowing that, a severer sentence, shall ye receive;" (James 3:1)
Enlightenment is all around us my friend.
God tells us in Genesis who the wisest of all the animals is and that view is basically identical to most of the older religions from which it came. The serpent is used as that icon.
Think esoteric and Kundalini.
Regards
DL
Esoteric yes. Kundalini, no!
"And be not configuring yourselves unto this age, but be transforming yourselves by the renewing of your mind, to the end ye may be proving what is the thing willed by God—the good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2)
All eastern "isms" direct a person inward, towards themselves to do "a work": by leading a person away from WHO they should be solely focused on. We are not to attempt a metaphysical "journey to god". We are to "cease our work" (sabbath) and be transformed by CHRIST and accept HIS will. The single-handed, most foundational truth that a follower of JESUS CHRIST can first be enlightened on is: "I can of mine own self do nothing" (John 5:30)
While it's true that many a creation is likened to something (aka: satan being likened to a serpent); it's also true that the serpent represents certain spiritual attributes (i.e., cunning, cleverness, etc). Satan is also very much a real spiritual entity, fulfilling the purpose he was created to fulfill. Nothing more, nothing less.
"nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ." (Matthew 23:10 - Young's Literal Translation)