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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Duane on February 12, 2012, 03:19:25 AM

Title: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Duane on February 12, 2012, 03:19:25 AM
I was reading about Jesus in John 8; and came to verse 42, which INSTANTLY reminded me of Ray's article debunking the Trinity.  Verse 42-- "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I p-r-o-c-e-e-d-e-d forth and came from God; nor have I c-o-m-e  o-u-t  of MYSELF, but He sent me".

Ray teaches that Jesus was GOD the Father's FIRST CREATION! So I wanted to see HOW it was handled by the translations.
Needing TWO WITNESSES,  the other "witness" was supplied by Revelation 3:14 (CLV) "and to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write:  Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and GOD'S C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E: ORIGINAL."
(God's "creative: ORIGINAL" would transverse to "God's ORIGINAL creation"--- meaning JESUS!)

So how did the KJV, NIV, CLV translate the SAME verse?

 (KJV) "...beginning of the creation of God"   (Okay)
 (NIV)"...the ruler of God's creation"  (huh?) 
 (CLV)"...for OUT OF GOD I came forth..  (perfectly clear)

My topic of discussion surrounds HOW fundamentals take HEATED UMBRAGE of the notion that Jesus was CREATED by His Father!  (surprise?--the father created the son??) INSISTING that Jesus (of the Trinity)  ALWAYS WAS "PART of God" -- so NEVER created!  Always was!!

The translations CLV--out of God I came forth --is implying a "birth" or "creation" from WITHIN the Father.
Such as I would say "out of my Mother, Ruth Gevert, I "came forth"--.
BUT the NIV would say of me "Duane was ruler of his families creation"!
      the KJV would say of me "Duane was the beginning of the creation of Ruth"  (literally accurate)

The confusion confirms my POST titled:  "The Bible clearly says??"  Now anyone reading the KJV would not necessarily
pause to think that the Bible was stating that "Jesus WAS the FIRST CREATION OF GOD" but would read "right over it" thinking "yes, Jesus did create the world and managed it in Eden" and never "get" that it was JESUS that was CREATED!

Anyone reading the NIV wouldn't "have a clue" about Jesus's ORIGIN at all!  Jesus was "just a ruler of God's creation"!

So NEVER wonder WHY we "B-T'ers" get severely criticized for our Biblical viewpoints BECAUSE even though Ray's observation and research of the un-Trinity was ACCURATE and "right on the money" the translations used by "fundamentalists" sure DIDN'T help THEIR understanding at all--it just made US hated and "heretics" for believing Ray--
and ORIGINAL GREEK TRANSLATION (CLV)!  Sad---comments?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 14, 2014, 07:43:40 AM
Greetings!

Jesus is eternal when God is alone...........
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 14, 2014, 11:33:21 AM

Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?

John 8:16  And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Farlsborough on August 14, 2014, 02:09:31 PM
It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...

I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two  ;D

Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.

Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.

They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).

It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.

I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy?  ;)), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."

And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 14, 2014, 03:48:24 PM
There is One God.

There are not three gods.

There are not two gods (a father god and a Jesus god).

One God.

The Father and Jesus together are One God. 1 Cor. 8:6  They are not separate..

Jesus was not created.  He came forth from God.  Jesus was the Creator.

Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God.

But as Paul said, not everyone knows this.  But everyone will know the True God at their appointed time.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: jojoross on August 14, 2014, 04:12:00 PM
What about this:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (the Father).

and...

Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image (not God but the image) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
 Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Seems like this verse is saying God the Father is ahead of Christ and that Christ is firstborn of every creature?

I always get confused with these verses...


Gods Peace,
Jordan
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 14, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
Hi Farlaborough,

Well the thing is what they teach about the Trinity is not true, there is not 3 equal being in the Godhead. No matter how insignificant this may sound to you this inaccuracy just leads to confusion and builds a false understanding of who/what God is. That is not good! And there is going to be accountability for that.

Mat 12:36  But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

But everybody will not be held to the same degree of punishment/stripes, it varies from person to person according to the intention in their heart in a matter.

Now another thing, Christ clearly stated that His Father is greater.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (2nd witness John 10:29)

But then there is the Scripture where it's stated that Christ is equal to God...

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, (NKJV)

Notice it is "equal to God," this is likely the Godly divinity that gave Him a spiritual existence...

G2316 theos: a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

He certainly was equal to the Father in divinity, but as the next verse states, until He became flesh and "emptied Himself" of that divinity that made Him a Spirit Being, so then He could die.

Php 2:7  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; (ASV)

He knew and stated that the Father was greater than He was, so there is no trinity or a Bitheism either, which is 2 distinct Gods. The Father and Son are one, this does not mean 2 in totally united, but as in connected, inseparable.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.
John 10:38  ...believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 14:7  "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 14, 2014, 04:34:14 PM
It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...

I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two  ;D

Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.

Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.

They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).

It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.

I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy?  ;)), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."

And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.

I won't claim to take responsibility for who will be in the kingdom.  That isn't my call and my opinion is not required by the One who made these decisions.

That said, "trinitarianism" is not on the surface and by itself the most evil way of looking at God.  Few of us talk about the real meat and truth of what Ray was saying...and it's not so much a hypothetical or theological truth about GOD, but about how WE fit in there.  The very title of the article:  Is God a Closed Trinity or an Expanding Family.  That ought to tell us what was most in Ray's mind when he wrote and had it posted on B-T.

It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that.  It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang.  Though it endeavors to do that as well.  It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family. 

The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'.  That's not what God has planned for us.  It's ALL about family.  Each in their own turn.

Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN.  The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image".  That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."     
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lareli on August 14, 2014, 05:29:28 PM
I would say that I relate to what Farlsborough said.. In my mind I would want to know more about how to do right instead of how to be right.

Scripture says we can know all the right answers and have all the mysteries of God known to us but still be nothing. We can know all this stuff and still miss the point.

The different things people believe about the trinity don't matter that much to me because either way it wouldn't change what God said I'm supposed to be doing.

Seek mercy, love justice, walk humbly with your God. Love your enemies. Be at peace with all men so long as it depends on you. Treat others as more important than yourself. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love God with all your strength.

I believe what Kat said about believing in the wrong thing leading to confusion... But I think believing in the wrong thing is different than acknowledging that you don't know the answer. There's lots of things that I would put in the "I don't know" box, the trinity being one of them. None of these things would change what it is I'm supposed to be doing though.

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: rick on August 14, 2014, 06:47:53 PM
In the end, it’s about having an accurate knowledge of God and ourselves. For those who are being call now are learning both who God is and who they are and why God made His creation in spiritual weakness.

For those who God calls not, does it matter what they believe ?  The day will come when no man shall say know the Lord for the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth.

Everyone will have an accurate knowledge of God and learn to do righteousness in the end.
 

And you the reader have no say...............you will be saved because its God’s ( Will ) that ( All ) men be saved , this also includes ( All ) women too.

All men plus all women equals everyone.   :)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 14, 2014, 06:54:05 PM
Is there a verse that explicitly states Jesus was created?

I know there is the verse that states He is the first born of the creation but that doesn't necessarily mean He was created. Only that He is born first much like we must be BORN AGAIN to enter the kingdom.

Also, being the beginning of the creation of God still doesn't imply you are created.

I do believe Christ came out of the Father and has a beginning, what I'm trying to understand is if there is a difference between coming out of God and being created by God.

I think coming out of God would imply that you were always a part of God were as being created by God, you are outside and not God yet but will be incorporated into God later.

I'm just kind of rambling, feel free to chime in. Thought I'd give this whole thread a shot ;)

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 14, 2014, 11:36:45 PM

Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.msg99627.html#msg99627 ---------

If Jesus were ‘just a man’ why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all? Why couldn’t He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER? Why? Why did He need to be more than ‘just a man?’ Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?

If Jesus Christ were nothing but a human being He did not have to be conceived by God, He did not have to empty Himself, He did not have to be made lower than an angel so He could die.  All men die. Just pay attention to the words.

Mr. Buzzard has a footnote on page 191 where he makes a comment from a dictionary about Revelation 3:14 where it says Jesus Christ is “the beginning of the creation of God.” Concordant translates it “God's Creative Original." Now that is a profound Scripture, I mean that’s one of those really profound Scripture. That is not a false translation or anything.

Rev 3:14  …write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus Christ the “beginning of the creation of God.” He is “the beginning.”

Col 1:16  for in Him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and unto Him;

He is the beginning and the beginner, all things were created through Him.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html ------------------------

Look at I Cor. 8:6 again.  Notice that it does not say, "But to us there is but one God, the Father." (Period).  Nor does it say, "One Lord Jesus Christ." (Period).  There is more to consider.  Is this verse saying that "God the
Father" is the ONLY God," and that Jesus, therefore cannot also be "God?" 

For sure Jesus can't be HIS OWN FATHER, but can Jesus also be "the ONE God?"  Look at that first statement again, as it IS in the Scripture as I will re-emphasize the words to make this one point:  "But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS."  There is only One God, the Father,  OUT OF Whom ALL IS" (Concordant Literal New Testament and The Emphatic Diaglott). 

Then concerning Jesus we read:  "One Lord Jesus Christ, BY Whom are all things." "Of" and "by" are two different words--"of" is applied to the Father, where as "by" is applied to the Son.  Actually the word "by" is better translated "through," but that doesn't change the fact that they are different and are applied to different actions. (See Rotherham's emphasized Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, and The Concordant Literal New Testament for verification of the word "through"). 

All creation is "OF" God the Father, but since Jesus was also created, not all creation is OF Jesus. But the act of creation is attributed to Jesus (See I Collosians, etc.), hence it is "through" Jesus that all the things of creation
are brought into existence by or "through" Jesus Christ.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27962.html#msg27962 ------

John 13:3  "and that HE CAME FROM GOD”... that’s where Jesus came from, GOD. Not from the Godhead, not from the Trinity, FROM GOD.

John 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD.  (Just like Eve came out from Adam)
v. 28  I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and have come into the world.

1 John 4:9  In this the love of God was revealed in us, because GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON into the world that we might live through Him.

v. 14  And we have seen and testify that THE FATHER SENT THE SON to be the Savior of the world.

Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom HE HAS APPOINTED heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,

If Jesus Christ was part of a triune god, a trinity, then nobody’s appointed anybody, nobody is sending anybody.  There is not one greater authority in a perfect equilateral triangle.  But Christ said, My Father is greater than I, (John 14:28).

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right?  The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.

In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
 
We read in 1 Cor 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.

That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
 
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 14, 2014, 11:54:33 PM
Thank you Kat,

So it seems like the only place that really puts the word CREATE and Jesus together, as in He is created by God, is in Revelations 3:14?

Look at the Young's translation for this however;

(RYLT-NT)  'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

Here is the ISV

(ISV) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this: "

If everything is out of the Father and through Jesus, then these translations make sense in light of that concept. Though I don't know how I feel about saying Christ is the originator as we know the Father to be so. However, young's is interesting.

My whole curiousity with Christ being created by the Father has nothing to do with whether He came forth from the Father and existed before He became man. I know that He did come forth from the Father and existed before He emptied Himself of His devinity.

My curiousity is with the word CREATE vs BRING FORTH or CAME OUT OF. God CREATED the heaven's and the earth, He didn't BRING FORTH these things out of Himself. As ray put, **there are two words, creating' and 'forming'.  One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed. ** Thank you dave for the correction!

So I was wondering, does the same apply to Christ? Was Christ CREATED or was he MADE from the Father? As in the Father took a piece of Himself and therefor it would really make sense that Christ is God, that He and the Father are one but that the Father is GREATER than He. Christ was never created then, in that sense, but He does have a beginning and He did come forth from the Father.

Does that make sense what I'm saying? That's why I wanted to find a verse that really NAILED the "Christ was 'CREATED' part."

Feel free to contribute or refute me or whatever. I'm not trying to teach, just trying to come to a better understanding of all this. I forget things sometimes so maybe I'm forgetting a verse here that would completely dismantle my little idea.

God bless,
Alex



Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 15, 2014, 12:28:19 AM
Ah, Alex.  But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.

The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'.  One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed.  That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment.   ;D
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 15, 2014, 12:42:41 AM
Ah, Alex.  But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.

The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'.  One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed.  That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment.   ;D

Oh yes, thank you dave for the correction! Let me make that change hehe.

Then I suppose if this is true there is no difference between creating and bringing forth. My idea still holds merit as now the two words are inclusive rather than exclusive to one another, right? lol
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 15, 2014, 12:46:48 AM

Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.

v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.

v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

mercy peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Joel on August 15, 2014, 02:07:52 PM
I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that God has given us called the Bible where anything was ever created before the Word.
There are many scriptures in the Old, and New Testaments that speak of God sending the Word, or the Word of God came to so and so.
God brought forth his creative Spiritual Word who knows how long ago? And then the Spiritual Word was made flesh a little over two thousand years ago that we all know now as The Lord Jesus Christ.

Joel

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Farlsborough on August 15, 2014, 03:01:57 PM

It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that.  It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang.  Though it endeavors to do that as well.  It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family. 

The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'.  That's not what God has planned for us.  It's ALL about family.  Each in their own turn.

Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN.  The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image".  That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."     

So Dave, how is what you believe different from A) the Mormons who believe we will (or can) be Gods ourselves eventually, or B) Hindus who's aim is ultimately to be obliterated/joined into God in one big swirling spiritual unity? Do you believe we will be literally the same beings as Christ, with the only difference being the spiritual medal or "brownie points" He got for volunteering to be the saviour of the world?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 15, 2014, 03:17:50 PM

Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?

John 8:16  And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

When there is nothing except God, Jesus is eternal.
When there is nothing except God, that God is the "I AM"
When there is nothing except God, the Word was with God
When there is nothing except God, the Word was God.


I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. Rev 22:13

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;this one was in the beginning with God; Jhn 1:1-2


How is it that both God the Father and Jesus be the First and the Last, because Jesus is God, and Jesus is the "I AM" and Jesus is the Word.



How come that Jesus is eternal, He is eternal when Jesus was with God, when He was the Word with God, when there was nothing except God.


who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages, 2Ti 1:9

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.Tit 1:2-4

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.Jde 1:25

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --Gen 1:1


Now the misunderstanding(confusion) comes out when.............

The Word with God comes out from (God)Father

for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'Jhn 16:27-28


When in a certain situation say certain time that the "WORD" comes out from God, that "Word" has now It's beginning, that is the beginning when the Word with God comes out from God.
There is now a so called Father and Son because the Father begotten the Son. That God which is alone before becomes the Father to a Son. The Father is God and also the Son is God. They are both God. The Son now has a beginning when He comes out from the Father. The Father is eternal, the Word is eternal when there is still nothing except God.


When the Word becomes a man and when the Word comes out from the Father, then you can now explain very well these passages;


1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (the Father).

Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image (not God but the image) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

 Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 15, 2014, 03:58:19 PM

Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.

v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.

v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

mercy peace and love
Kat

Very interesting Kat. Thank you.

I am in agreement that Christ was brought forth from the Father, though it's interesting to me JOHNFROMKENTUCKY in his post stated that Jesus was NOT created. Perhaps BROUGHT FORTH, though it means the same as CREATED, is more accurate in that this is how the scriptures describe Jesus' coming into existence? John your input would be welcome here.

Your final statement was very enlightening to me. I found this particularly helpful in my understanding;


"The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."

I think it goes nicely with what John also said; "The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God."

Very interesting to see how this discussion has evolved over time. I appreciate the clarifications. I think I am in agreement with you guys now.

God bless,
Alex

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 15, 2014, 08:20:57 PM
Farlsborough.  God is a family.  The word "god" is a title (Elohim in Hebrew, Theos in Greek).  It is nobody's name, unless some hippy named their kid God.   

Jesus said in teaching the disciples, "Joh 14:19-20  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

We have their witness that after the world saw Him no more, the disciples did.  WE "see" Him by faith.  WE are in this relationship.  We are in this family.

Presently, we are in it by the Spirit of adoption, but when we are 'born from above', we will be the sons and daughters of God.  We will be in the "GOD FAMILY"---the FATHER"S FAMILY, by name.

Now...I don't know what Mormons believe.  But I believe the Father in the God Family is creating more sons and daughters.  Sons and daughters are family.  What else does it describe?

Do we get the 'title'?  Could be we already have it.  There are many 'gods' and many 'lords'.  Some of them don't exist, and others are gods unto themselves.  I don't ascribe ANY "supernatural" (or pseudo-spiritual) attributes to the TITLE.  See Psalms 82.

Continuing, I don't even know what a big swirling spiritual unity is.   :D  No, I don't believe we will be 'obliterated' and joined into any such thing.  I DO believe we will be LIKE CHRIST.  That's what Scripture says.  Whatever He was is what we will be 'like' NEXT.  Was He 'obliterated'?  No, He was given all power in Heaven and on Earth.  Did he do anything, say anything, accomplish anything apart from what the Father gave Him to do, say, and accomplish?  No, by His own mouth. 

He is the FIRST to die and be raised to immortality.  He will not be the last. 

We may can speculate and have faith with some 'safety' and 'conviction' on what comes NEXT, (Jesus did walk among men after HIS resurrection).  But there are more ages to follow!  Paul had a vision of the 'seventh heaven' and said it was either unwise, inexpedient or illegal/unlawful to utter it (the translators disagree).  Eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, neither has it entered into the MIND (imagination?) of man what glories await.  For that reason ALONE, I can't 'believe' as the Mormons or the Hindus believe.  If it can be described, it is not what Paul 'saw'.

Add to that, that the INCREASE of His Government shall know no end.  Not just His government, but the INCREASE of it will not end.

I have a hard enough time with the christian, trinitarian (and unitarian too) 'heaven'.   ;D  I'm pretty dang sure he didn't see THAT.

   

 
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lareli on August 16, 2014, 03:10:45 PM
Farlsborough, Dave

Speaking of Mormons, Hindus etc. does God call people to other religions and then choose people from other religions? Or is the choosing only from those called into the Christian church?

Does God choose His elect from among Mormons, Hindus, also?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: theophilus on August 16, 2014, 03:13:27 PM

Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.

v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.

v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

mercy peace and love
Kat

Very interesting Kat. Thank you.

I am in agreement that Christ was brought forth from the Father, though it's interesting to me JOHNFROMKENTUCKY in his post stated that Jesus was NOT created. Perhaps BROUGHT FORTH, though it means the same as CREATED, is more accurate in that this is how the scriptures describe Jesus' coming into existence? John your input would be welcome here.

Your final statement was very enlightening to me. I found this particularly helpful in my understanding;


"The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."

I think it goes nicely with what John also said; "The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God."

Very interesting to see how this discussion has evolved over time. I appreciate the clarifications. I think I am in agreement with you guys now.

God bless,
Alex


I take exception with the phrase "The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."

Our Lord Jesus revealed that He CAME FORTH "FROM" the Father; not that He CAME FORTH "OF" the Father as the above phrase states. Maybe I am misunderstanding these prepositions.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: theophilus on August 16, 2014, 03:17:54 PM
Great point Dave!!!  :) :) :)

A cookie for you!  ;) ;) ;)

I love it!
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 16, 2014, 06:57:12 PM
God is not just a title.  God is not a family.

God is One.  God is unique.  God is special.

How do I know this?  The Scriptures.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.
  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.
  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Those who have ears, let them hear.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 16, 2014, 07:41:32 PM
Santgem, if you consider that the Son was "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) then He cannot be eternal, as eternity does not have a beginning. The Son is what God brought forth at the beginning/first of this creation, also He is the Alpha of this creation, the Son is all about this creation.

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

The eternal God brought the Son forth/out and by that became the Father and the Son was not with the Father before that or God would not have needed to bring Him forth. Now before/beyond this creation, I have no idea what the Father is/has, but I have no doubt it is very very much more than just this. The Son is for this creation and He was brought forth for that purpose.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 16, 2014, 09:23:14 PM
God is not just a title.  God is not a family.

God is One.  God is unique.  God is special.

How do I know this?  The Scriptures.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.
  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.
  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Those who have ears, let them hear.

Well I'll tell you what, These pieces of scripture have never made more sense than now!

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" ....  "there is none like me."(46:9)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 16, 2014, 11:01:42 PM
John, that is the God I know and worship.  I do not claim to BE Him.  He has a name, and it's not mine.  His NAME applies to Him, and the attributes of His Name to Him alone.  Our God is the Most High.  There is none like Him, and none beside Him.

No, GOD is not JUST a title.  The word "god", however, IS a title.  It's an English word.  I knew it was an English word many years ago, but I didn't know it was a 'title' and not a 'name' until Ray Smith taught me.   It is NOT WRONG to refer to a person by his title.  It's just wrong to think that's his name.

From the Enigma of God paper.

JESUS IS JEHOVAH - For that is His NAME!

Holy Father, You have given Me Your Name; now protect them by the power of Your Name so that they will be united just as We are. (New Living Translation - 2007).

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name, which You Have given Me, that they may be one, even as we are one. (English Standard Version -2001).

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name, the Name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. (American Standard Bible),

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name - that Name which You have given Me, so that they shall be one, just as We are. (Aramaic Bible in Plain English).

Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of Your Name, the Name that You gave Me, so that their unity may be like Ours. (God's Word Translation - 1995)

Holy Father, keep them in Thy Name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one as We. (Darby Bible Translation.

Holy Father, keep them true to Thy Name-the Name which Thou hast given Me to bear-that they may be one, even as We are. (Weymouth New Testament).

Holy Father, keep them through Your Name which You have given Me. that they may be one, even as We are. (New World English Bible)

Holy Father, protect them in Your Name, which You have given Me. (The New Testament According to the Eastern Texts By George M. Lamsa)

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name that You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. (The New Testament Bible for Catholics)

Holy Father, keep them by the power of Thy Name which Thou hast given Me. (James Moffatt, A New Translation)

I have given them the honour that You gave Me, that they may be one, as we are one. (The New Testament in Modern English By J. B. Phillips)

Holy Father, watch over them on account of Your Own Name which You have given Me, in order that they may be one just as we are. (New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania-THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES).

Holy Father, protect them in Your Name that You have given Me, so that they may be one, as we are one. (New Revised Standard Version)

Holy Father, protect them by the power of Your Name-the Name You gave to Me - so that they may be one as We are one. (Holy Bible New International Version).


Will nobody EVER be 'like' Him?  (PLEASE note the 'marks')

1Jn 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

or another translation:

1Jn 3:1  See what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3  And everyone having this hope on Him purifies himself even as that One is pure.


We can 'speculate' until the cows turn blue just how much and in what ways we will be 'like' him.  John was rather clear in the rest of that 'chapter', but that is not the end of Scripture.  For the record:  I do not expect I'll EVER be other than a man and a member of 'man-kind'.  But a man 'formed' in the image of God and Conformed to the image of His Son.

And if that's not 'family', I don't know what is.   


 
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 16, 2014, 11:05:23 PM

Theophilus, the meaning of 'from' as a preposition is - indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts. The meaning of 'of' as a preposition is - expressing the relationship between a part and a whole. indicating an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

Now in the phrase where Jesus stated "I came forth from the Father" I believe He is saying where or from Whom He received His existence, not that He is expressing that He came from as in separating from Him. That's what I believe...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Joel on August 17, 2014, 02:48:04 AM
These scriptures came to mind.
Ephesians 3:14-15
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Joel
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 17, 2014, 04:04:40 AM
Santgem, if you consider that the Son was "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) then He cannot be eternal, as eternity does not have a beginning. The Son is what God brought forth at the beginning/first of this creation, also He is the Alpha of this creation, the Son is all about this creation.

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

The eternal God brought the Son forth/out and by that became the Father and the Son was not with the Father before that or God would not have needed to bring Him forth. Now before/beyond this creation, I have no idea what the Father is/has, but I have no doubt it is very very much more than just this. The Son is for this creation and He was brought forth for that purpose.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,
Greetings!

The Father is not eternal and the Son is not eternal but God is eternal.

The Father and the Son had their existence when God became Father to a Son.

Both the Father and the Son are God. The Word is with God and the Word is God.

Before there was no Father and a Son that so called "Son" was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.

The Son is eternal when there was nothing except God because before he became a Son, He is the WORD with God and the WORD is GOD and God is eternal.



for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'Jhn 16:27-28

God was called "Father" when the Son comes out from God. The Son is that Word with God. When there was nothing except God there was no Father and a Son, the Father and a Son had their existence when God became Father to a Son but before that it is only God.

You say the the Son cannot be eternal. the Son cannot be eternal when he comes out from the Father, but when He was still the Word with God He is eternal. The Word is the "I AM" and the Word is the Son who dwells among us and the Word is God.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;this one was in the beginning with God; Jhn 1:1-2

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 17, 2014, 11:15:07 AM

Okay Santgem, I see what you are saying, I just don't see it that way. This physical creation was made in the way that it is, and we are made to look as we do and to use speech as a means to communicate. We were also made with a psyche that needs a God and He would need to be very similar to what we are for us to accept (which I do not believe the Father is). So He first brought forth the Word, God, the Son and we can relate to Him as He has an image and has a like manner of speech like us.

But I also see that this as a unique creation... I don't believe there is something else like this world that would need the Word before He was brought forth, so He purpose is just for this creation. So God determined to bring this creation into existence, He also determined that we would need a God that we relate to, and so He first brought forth the Son and from His beginning He had an image and a voice 'like' what we would have. I believe the way He did this, was to bring forth/create/product the Son that was another part/extension of Himself, then He used this Son-God, to do everything concerning this creation. That's how I see it...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: indianabob on August 18, 2014, 01:43:16 AM


Hi folks,
This is a once over lightly of the idea that Jesus was the logos of YHVH from eternity past. I've read the evidence as presented and still cannot see it or agree that it makes sense to this old man.

Genesis says "in the beginning YHVH ....
John 1:1 says "in the beginning was the logos and the logos was with YHVH and the logos was YHVH.

To me that says that "the logos of YHVH was YHVH and YHVH was the logos". In other words these two designations are one and the same. One being the speaker and the other being the thought spoken and expressed by that self same speaker. Not another person.

There is nothing here about Lord Jesus; not yet!

2. Much has been said about the word god in English scripture.
The word god means a lot more than the original creator of all.
In the O.T., N. T. god can mean a human lord or master e.g.

So we have to check each and every time to see from which of many words "god" was translated. Same concern with LORD and Lord and lord which are three ways of spelling the designation of a superior being whether they be GOD, angel or flesh and blood.

The English or KJV seems to use the standard that LORD refers to Father God [YHVH] and Lord refers to the SON of Father God the man Jesus or Lord Jesus. see below...

King James Bible
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
= = =
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Lord Jehovah said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
= = =
American Standard Version
Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine thine enemies thy footstool.

Young's Literal Translation
A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
= = =

In all the above instances YHVH is a separate name from Lord Jesus.
AND there does not seem to be an indication that Jesus was the logos of YHVH prior to Jesus conception in Mary his mother.

Question:
If the word or logos of YHVH, Father God, was always the power manifested in the O. T. in the Pillar of Cloud, in the Pillar of fire, in the Burning bush and even in Eden the Garden of God speaking with Adam and Eve. Then why was it necessary to believe or imagine that the MAN Jesus was the one who did all those miraculous deeds for Father YHVH GOD? Why not another manifestation of YHVH or Father GOD through the agency of HIS logos.
After all when an angel or another manifestation of GOD appears to humans it is to be considered GOD, since it is GOD's appointed agent.

Isn't it even more scriptural to understand that the logos or the word expressed of YHVH became flesh for the first time in Lord Jesus, at Jesus' conception and not before?

Yes of course it is the same "LOGOS" working in Jesus during his life on the earth as mortal man. Yes the man Jesus is now, since his ascension, the living representative of YHVH and having full authority to act for YHVH in all things, because Jesus is now the embodiment of the word (logos) of YHVH.

We could also note that when we who are to be the very body of Lord Jesus in the better resurrection, we will be just like him since we will see him as he is in his, Jesus' immortal-spiritual state.

So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?

Scripture teaches that Lord Jesus was known to Father God from the beginning. Couldn't that just mean that in the mind of God a special man was planned from the very beginning? A man to be kept perfect for the righteous purpose and then elevated or appointed as planned, to the very family of God to serve in a position of honor and responsibility for all time to come? A future event guaranteed by the power and mind of Father God.

Isn't that what we may expect from a loving God who desires to share HIS creation with billions of SONS with Lord Jesus the head of all, other than the Father?

1Co 15:27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: cheekie3 on August 18, 2014, 06:30:53 AM
Kat / John from Kentucky -

The Father is the source of all Life.

There was a time when The Father was alone.

The Father then brought forth or birthed Jesus - whom He calls His Son.

If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father brought Him back to life.

Is it not TRUE that The Father and The Son are unified as The One True God - yet are both inseparable and separate at the same time.

When we are all Holy Sons of God - will we not all be inseparable from our Heavenly Father yet all separate.

George.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 18, 2014, 01:09:38 PM

Quote
So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?

Hi Bob, well we have to considered what Christ Jesus said Himself.

John 8:58  Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So Gen. 1:1 says that the Word was in the beginning, I believe this is speaking of the beginning of this creation and this Word spoken of is the God and Creator of this creation. But then He came to live among us as flesh and blood to have a human experience and to die as we do. This was His ultimate act of love to come down from His place on high and live in this world and literally die a cruel death, and doing this, as the perfect God of creation, His life was worth more than all of human life put together, therefore He qualified to pay/cover all sin. And not only that, but He also was first resurrected to open the way for us all eventually to follow in resurrection.

Rev 22:13  “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Quote
If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father bright Him back to life.

Hi George, when you consider that the Son was not always a part of the Father, He did not always exist. But then that gives you a way to see that the Father brought Him forth and could then removed Him for that period of time, His Spirit did return to the Father (Luke 23:46). He was actually able to emptied Himself of the glory that gave Him spiritual LIFE, so He could be lower and born as flesh and then die. So He could and did lose His existence for the purpose of death... see what I mean?

Phil 2:7  but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.The Father is not dependent on the Son, but the Son is certainly dependent on the Father.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The Father could do this the same way He brought the Son into existence, the Father is not limited in any way, so this is certainly possible. He could do this with the Son because the Son is not all of God, but the part that the Father brought into being to be God of this creation, even to the point of dying for us all.

But the Son is God of this creation and always will be and He in so being has the Holy Spirit without measure.

John 3:34  For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.

That makes me think that when the elect are made "like" Christ at resurrection they too will have the Holy Spirit without measure and this will give the elect that connection, oneness and like the Son they too will become a part of God, like Christ always has been. For now we are being prepared for what is to come at resurrection, for now the elect have the guaranteed, the promised that they too will be one with God when Christ returns to rule the world.

1 John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12  that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 19, 2014, 05:09:21 AM
The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God

How come Jesus be the Son of the living  God when he is the living God?

The Father who is the living  God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: theophilus on August 19, 2014, 11:18:56 AM
The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God

How come Jesus be the Son of the living  God when he is the living God?

The Father who is the living  God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!


If the above is claimed to be true, then the term 'Father' is equivalent to the term 'Son'; and it is illogical to use both terms. yet the Father is GREATER than the Son.

I think we would all like to think that we got this figured out and and that we understand it. I think there is at least one piece of the puzzle that's missing. And for this reason, we can't thoroughly understand it, much less explain it to others. Just my humble and lowly opinion.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Craig on August 19, 2014, 03:10:33 PM
There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.


8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
    “Everything is meaningless!”

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.

10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.

12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

All the rest is chasing the wind.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: dave on August 19, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
 :) Excellent preacher...... well said!
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 19, 2014, 05:41:47 PM

It sounds like some think that these discussions are pointless on this subject... oh yes Solomon certainly did realized that it is an absolutely true that no amount of the physical can bring about "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding." But the Spirit of God indwelling can and does and we do have the words of Jesus that says He will "reveal" His Father to those.

Mat 11:25  At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
v. 26  Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
v. 27  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
v. 28  Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
v. 29  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
v. 30  For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 19, 2014, 06:02:59 PM
I found this discussion extremely edifying and grateful for it. I think I would be poorer for it not having ever happened. So thank you. I understand the relationship between the Father and the Son--I understand God--just a little bit better!
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: cjwood on August 19, 2014, 06:53:52 PM
isaiah rocked!  8)   just sayin.  nice scriptures jfk.   :)

claudia
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: theophilus on August 20, 2014, 12:30:38 AM
Well said Kat and Craig! :)

Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 20, 2014, 04:15:21 AM
The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God

How come Jesus be the Son of the living  God when he is the living God?

The Father who is the living  God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!


If the above is claimed to be true, then the term 'Father' is equivalent to the term 'Son'; and it is illogical to use both terms. yet the Father is GREATER than the Son.

I think we would all like to think that we got this figured out and and that we understand it. I think there is at least one piece of the puzzle that's missing. And for this reason, we can't thoroughly understand it, much less explain it to others. Just my humble and lowly opinion.


Theophilus,
Greetings!


But -- in this let the boaster boast himself, In understanding and knowing Me, For I am Jehovah, doing kindness, Judgment, and righteousness, in the earth, For in these I have delighted, An affirmation of Jehovah. Jer 9:24




And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat 16:16-17

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jhn 6:69


Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus is the Son of the Father
Jesus is the Son of the living God

Jesus is the Son of  God the Father the living God



Whence Jesus the living God?



ARE YOU AFRAID OF GOD?

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant (that’s Jesus Christ’s blood), wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
v. 30  For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belonged unto Me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
v. 31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now did you get all of that? It’s saying that if you do something really bad you are going to be held accountable in this “fiery indignation and judgment.”  Right?  He says vengeance is mine “I will recompense, says the Lord. The Lord will judge His people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Now who is this fearful living God that it is so fearful to fall into? Well it’s “the LORD that shall judge His people.” We just read it, it says so. Right? Well who is that?

John 5:22  For the Father judges no man

Guess what it’s not the Father. Here we thought it’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God and it isn’t the Father. Nope. It’s the judge. Who’s the judge?

v.22 …but hath committed ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON:

That’s the Judge.Acts 10:42  And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Rom 14:10  But why do you judge thy brother? or why do you set at naught your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat, (Of God the Father? No…) of CHRIST.

Acts 17:31  Because HE hath appointed a day…

Who is the “He “ here that has appoint a day, who is that? [Comment: God the Father.] At last, apparently so. Apparently now we have the Father, it doesn’t say so, but apparently so.

Whenever you have a Scripture that is contrasting the Son with somebody called God, then you probably know that is His Father who also bares the title God.

Act 17:31  Because He (God) hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness BY THAT MAN (Who is “that Man”? JESUS.) whom He hath ordained.

So after all, when we read all that in proper context, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living JESUS, isn’t it. Once more what do we prove?

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.



Jesus the living God is the Son of God the Father the living God
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Rene on August 20, 2014, 10:31:46 AM
There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.

8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
    “Everything is meaningless!”

All the rest is chasing the wind.


There is nothing "meaningless" about seeking to know our God.  We are commanded to love our God.  I believe the more we know and understand about our God and Creator, the more we will love Him and that is a good thing.  Keep seeking brethren! :)

Matt 22:37-38 - "And He said unto him—Thou shalt love the Lord thy God—with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the great and first commandment."

Matt 7:7-8 - "Be asking and it shall be given you, Be seeking, and ye shall find,—Be knocking, and it shall be opened unto you. For whosoever asketh, receiveth, and he that seeketh, findeth,—and to him that knocketh, shall it be opened.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 20, 2014, 02:56:11 PM
Maybe listen to all of this:

http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: rick on August 21, 2014, 12:46:55 AM

I will be the first to admit that we "understand in part" as Paul has told us. We certainly do not understand all of the mechanics of God and how He is manifested toward man. But we can know as much as the Scriptures tell us.

First, God has predestined and called a group [Greek: ecclesia] commonly called church, out of the humanity of this world. This called out group is likened to virgins, a bride, brothers, Christ's body, and sons of God. Christ will marry this virgin bride body of believers who are the manifest sons of God for whom the whole creation is groaning.   It is this body of believers that will reign with Christ and bring salvation to the entirety of the universe.

Second: Christ is the Image of the Invisible God. Christ is EVERYTHING that the Father is, only in the visible flesh of humanity.  In that respect Christ IS our Father just as Isaiah prophesied.  Jesus said to know Him is to KNOW THE FATHER. So, clearly, we know all that the Father is, THROUGH CHRIST!  And that includes FATHERHOOD. Jesus Christ not only was a man, He is now and always will be A MAN.  Notice that AFTER Jesus was resurrected and returned to the glory and splendor that He had in the beginning with God, that He is STILL called a MAN,

"For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!

God promises believers the obtaining of this same spirit also. Hence WE TOO become ONE WITH CHRIST AND OUR FATHER!  Did I loose you yet?  Furthermore, all of God's creatures will one day possess this same spirit and then God will be "All in ALL" (I Cor. 15;28)!!!

Certainly there is much we do not know, however, all that I have presented here can be substantiated by the Scriptures.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. May God grant you a spirit of wisdom and understanding in these deep spiritually discerned matters.

Sincerely,

Ray  :)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: indianabob on August 21, 2014, 01:07:06 AM
Thank you Dennis,
Please spell for me the other word that Ray referenced with Ekklesia in that bible study. I could not determine it for myself.
Thank you, Indiana Bob
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 01:23:56 AM

Quote
Christ is EVERYTHING that the Father is,
.
.
But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS,

Rick, do you have Scripture for these 2 comments? If Christ is "everything" that the Father is, then are you saying they are one and the same? I don't believe that they are... the Son had a beginning, when He came forth. So throughout endless eternity what was the Father? Certainly there was something more to what He is than this creation... how/why could He bestow all that He has ever experienced on the Son?

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Rom 11:36  For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

The Son was brought forth to be God for this creation, that was His beginning, that is His purpose. That does not make Him separate from the Father, He is that part/extension of the Father for this purpose. But I believe there is very much more to the Father than this creation.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

John 10:29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2014, 01:40:41 AM
Kat, Rick's post was a quote from Ray's reply to an email on the front page.

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#father

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2014, 03:20:07 AM
Line upon line...precept upon precept...here a little, there a little...rightly (I hope) CUTTING the Word of Truth.

This follows the passage I 'quoted' earlier...the part about eye not having seen, nor ear heard, nor entering into the mind of man....

1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed it to us, by his Spirit; for the Spirit exploreth all things, even the profound things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man is there, who knoweth that which is in a man, except it be the spirit of the man, which is in him? So also, that which is in God, no one knoweth, except the Spirit of God.

and then this.

1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God; that we might know the free gifts, which are given to us by God.
1Co 2:13  Which things we also speak; not in the teaching of the words of man's wisdom, but in the teaching of the spirit; and we compare spirituals with spirituals.
1Co 2:14  For a man in his natural self, receiveth not spirituals; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them; for they are discerned by the Spirit.
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual, judgeth of all things: and he is judged of by no one.
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Messiah.

It's odd to me that Ray used the various 'relationships' which WE are in/to Christ in his reply...'brother', 'virgins', the 'bride of Christ', Christ's 'body', and 'sons of God'.  Can we say all these things are 'literal' and all at the same time?  Really?  Brothers AND bride? 

What are Christ's words?  Spirit.

Ray said we know NOTHING of the Father (same as the disciples) except what Christ revealed.  Jesus came to reveal the Father and said ..."if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

What is it about/in/of a man that knows about a man?  His spirit.  What is it about/in/of our God that knows about Him?  His Spirit.  Who has His Spirit and knows about Himself?  Our God...and then He gives His Spirit to us.

To the extent we no longer have the spirit of the world, and to the extent we have the Spirit of God we 'know the free gift' He has given to us...because a man in his natural state doesn't understand the spiritual.  It's foolishness.

"Discerning by the Spirit" is clearly not referring to our 'carnal/natural" understanding, but to the Spirit of God which He has (to whatever extent) given to us.  It also means (at least I think so) that WITH this Spirit, we DISCERN SPIRITUALLY--comparing Spiritual with Spiritual.  That's why we can't say that we are 'literal' Brides AND brothers, but that these SPIRITUAL words Christ spoke are what we are "LIKENED" to.  With His Spirit, we also have the MIND of Christ--again, at least to the extent we do.

From where do all of our actions spring?  Our bodies?  No, from our minds, hearts-- and not simply our brains and emotions, but the invisible SPIRITUAL workings of all that makes us what we are, intricately interconnected and 'fashioned' to make us unique.  Remember that SPIRIT is not simply a COMPONENT of man (like Caspar the friendly ghost), but the very 'force' that animates him..IN EVERY WAY.

When God created Mankind, He breathed into him SPIRIT, and Mankind became a living soul.  That's what we are.  He did this after declaring intention to "create mankind in Our image."  OK, so we are in the 'image' of God.  What about US is thus 'like Him?"  We know OURSELVES and the things OF OURSELVES by our spirit (if religion hasn't robbed us of even THAT knowledge) and we are told that He has given us to KNOW HIM and the things of HIM by HIS SPIRIT.  We are walking, talking 'pictures' (images) of God.  Can it be that we ourselves are parables (little stories) of the 'enigma' of God, and of our God Himself?   

If the spirit in me makes me alive, determines my 'actions', character, and 'thoughts' (by His 'fashioning' and sovereignty) is it also true that HIS SPIRIT determines HIS ACTIONS, Character, and THOUGHTS?  Not so far off-base so-far, I'm guessing. 

OK then...here's the kicker...why must I assume, after all this, that FATHER is a 'literal' term?  Wouldn't that be comparing Physical with Physical?  Or at best, Physical with Spiritual?  What is GREATER, the SPIRIT that animates and determines His thoughts, character, and actions or the Person through Whom His Spirit works?  I have ZERO doubt when it comes to ME, and could cite many Scriptures to back that up.  This is exactly the way Scripture says I operate!  Could it well be that when Jesus says the "Father is Greater than I", and that He does nothing, says nothing that doesn't come from the Father that He is speaking SPIRITUALLY?  I do nothing, say nothing, and accomplish nothing without MY spirit.

One day I will be full of HIS Spirit.  And I will walk, talk, speak, and act according to IT.  I BELIEVE I have a Lord and God who has done that ever since the Spiritual Father gave HIM life.  And don't ask me when that was, except before the foundations of the world.

Of course, I may be wrong (and I CERTAINLY know only in part)...but I don't think so.

I've followed Ray's teaching on all sorts of 'topics' for more than six years now.  Nearly everything I know about Spiritual Truths came by way of Ray's teaching.  I've done my best along the way NOT to forget AND to incorporate every 'new' truth with those that preceded it.  I believe Ray when he said that it's ALL ONE THING.  This is where I am.

   




     

 


 
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 21, 2014, 03:29:23 AM
Quote
When God created Mankind, He breathed into him SPIRIT, and Mankind became a living soul.  That's what we are.  He did this after declaring intention to "create mankind in Our image."  OK, so we are in the 'image' of God.  What about US is thus 'like Him?"

I would only contend to Dave, that we are, being MADE into God's image. We are not there yet.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2014, 03:58:11 AM
Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'?  It's a process.  We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 21, 2014, 07:23:50 AM
Christ who is the exact likeness of  the Father,  are one and the same, even the mode of  degree in both worshipping them.


And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:13


We could not Worship living God, the Father, apart from living God, the Son.



because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Co 4:6

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. 2Co 4:4

The Son radiates God's own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. Heb 1:3
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 10:42:46 AM

Thanks Dave, I didn't realize that was Ray's... but I do think we need a Scripture to verify those comments, as this very thing seems to be a point of confusion.

Indeed there is a difference in literal and physical, and our discernment of that is critical to our understanding. God uses the physical, which He put in place to be as it is, so that He could use it to represent the spiritual to a degree, He knows we are physical and need physical imagery to help our understanding. But there must be the discernment of how to apply the physical without taking it literal, as in the bride and body of Christ. Those terms are good to help us understand better what those relationship will be, but of course we get confused if apply it in too literal/physical sense.

Also our image being like His does have a physical and spiritual application, all humans are now in His likeness physically, but will only be in His likeness spiritually at the first resurrection.

1Cor 11:7  For a man indeed ought not to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man.

James 3:9  By this we bless God, even the Father. And by this we curse men, who have come into being according to the image of God.

Yes I think the Father's and Son relationship is taken too literal, but obviously it is the best way to describe it or they could have used another term, but it's the term Christ Himself used. We can see from that physical relationship, and Jesus verified it, that the Father is indeed greater than the Son, of course it is a spiritual application. We have no idea what more the Father may be, but I do feel that is part of what Christ is revealing about the Father, He is greater. Certainly we don't have all understanding on this yet... but little by little it is revealed by the Spirit and the Scripture will show us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 21, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'?  It's a process.  We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.

Only because God calls those things that are not as if they were. I know you know that scripture and the SUM of the Word is truth. Being part way there or 1% there doesn't give us the right to throw all caution to the wind and start confusing others by talking about our process of transformation as if its already complete.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Joel on August 21, 2014, 01:38:00 PM
It certainly is the Spirit of God that keeps us looking toward Spiritual food, fellowship, and communion.
Jesus is the greatest example for us to follow without a doubt.
We are given more examples of those serving God and living according to Jesus's example such as Peter, James , John, Stephen, and many others record in the New Testament.
We can look at Paul, and read of his accomplishments because there is simply more written about him.
Paul was greatly lead of the Spirit, but there was that one thing that constantly nagged at him he called "a thorn in the flesh."
The Lord told him that GRACE is sufficient.
We all know that Jesus created everything by the will of the Father. He also created the angels and all the heavenly realm.
The angels are affected by sin, but from a different perspective from us. And that whole history of what went down in the heavenly realm before mankind was created is pretty vague.
It is good to discuss the things of God.
Malachi 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Joel
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 21, 2014, 02:24:07 PM
Thank you Dennis,
Please spell for me the other word that Ray referenced with Ekklesia in that bible study. I could not determine it for myself.
Thank you, Indiana Bob

No idea Bob.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 03:18:02 PM

But those that are chosen were always His elect and cannot be lost, snatched from His hand (John 10:28-29).

Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Not only are the chosen always the elect, but they are also considered sons of God.

Rom 8:12 Consequently, then, brethren, debtors are we, not to the flesh, to be living in accord with flesh,
v. 13 for if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying. Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living."
v. 14 For whoever are being led by God's spirit, these are sons of God." (CLV)

Rom 8:14  For, as many as by God’s Spirit are being led, the same, are God’s sons,— (Rotherham)

Yes it is a process, completed at the first resurrection. But they are already considered sons and daughters, but they will only realize this when the Spirit is indwelling and working in them. Then you come to 'know' God and you can worship/pray to the Father in Spirit and truth.

John 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
 
Gal 4:6  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 21, 2014, 03:47:54 PM

Quote
Christ is EVERYTHING that the Father is,
.
.
But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS,

Rick, do you have Scripture for these 2 comments? If Christ is "everything" that the Father is, then are you saying they are one and the same? I don't believe that they are... the Son had a beginning, when He came forth. So throughout endless eternity what was the Father? Certainly there was something more to what He is than this creation... how/why could He bestow all that He has ever experienced on the Son?

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Rom 11:36  For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

The Son was brought forth to be God for this creation, that was His beginning, that is His purpose. That does not make Him separate from the Father, He is that part/extension of the Father for this purpose. But I believe there is very much more to the Father than this creation.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

John 10:29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Kat,

Here are two Scriptures in support that They are the same.  Not the identical functions, but the same God.

Jesus is called...the exact representation of His nature.  Heb 1:3

Of Jesus it is said...For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.  Col 2:9

Jesus is not 50% like the Father or 90%.  Jesus is His exact image and representation, 100%.

Which is why Jesus said, I and Father are one.  John 10:30

And Jesus said...He who has seen Me has seen the Father.  John 14:9

I have collected over a hundred Scriptures that prove there is one God.

The Father and Jesus are different aspects of the One God.  They do different things.  But they are not separate.

God is much more powerful than we think.  He can chew gum and skip rope at the same time.

He can be this invisible Spirit and Force that is everywhere and Who the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain.  At the same time He can empty Himself and manifest Himself as a human being.  One God.

This is why Ray in his article called Jesus God's autobiography.  An autobiography reveals yourself, not another.

I believe God is leading His Elect few (and you know who you are) towards this understanding of the oneness of God.  Truth cannot be contained.

But I do not like to see confusion or ill will in this discussion.  I deeply regret if I have caused any.  But the Truth will come by the will of God.  Only God can bring this understanding to His Elect.

Someone in this thread stated that he didn't believe Jesus was God.   ;D   God still has his work to do.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 04:32:24 PM

John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 21, 2014, 05:05:22 PM
John 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.


Who is that spirit?

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2Co 3:17

Who is that truth?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jhn 14:6


Who then the Spirit of truth?

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Jhn 15:26


Did the Father send the Spirit of his Son so that we can call the Father?

 And because we are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father. Gal 4:6


Are the true worshipers will worship the Father in Jesus Christ for the Father is seeking such to worship Him?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2014, 05:08:42 PM
Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'?  It's a process.  We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.

Only because God calls those things that are not as if they were. I know you know that scripture and the SUM of the Word is truth. Being part way there or 1% there doesn't give us the right to throw all caution to the wind and start confusing others by talking about our process of transformation as if its already complete.

See Kat's post directly above yours for Scriptural confirmation.  I've not thrown caution to the wind.  And I can't help it if this is all confusing.  I know...I know...the Nature of God...what a horrible thing to have to think about!   ;D

I'm no 'wiser' than the next person.  In fact, I think of myself as little more than a toddler with the Scripture.  Sure, I can handle some strong meat of the word, but I have trouble getting it all into my mouth.   ;) 

If my conclusion (if that's what it actually is--I doubt it) is 'wrong' it isn't because the 'premises' are wrong.  And I've got more where these came from.  It's because it is incomplete.  And I've been 'preaching' that ALL of our 'conclusions' are 'incomplete' for years now.  The heaven of all us heavens can't contain Him.

I have One God.  His name is Jehovah.  He also goes by Jesus.  I am not Him.  He is not me.  But we are 'inextricably linked' for the eons.  It just has to start someplace.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: microlink on August 21, 2014, 05:19:02 PM
From JFK
Kat,

Here are two Scriptures in support that They are the same.  Not the identical functions, but the same God.



John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


If God the Father are the same, then why did Ray say that The Father prevented Jesus from sinning as He could have sinned knowing He was in the flesh? The Father could never sin. Jesus could have but thanks be to God for His love toward us He did not sin. So Jesus cannot be all that the Father is. Many good posts in this thread confirm IMO
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2014, 05:38:21 PM
Could Jesus have sinned?  The proof is in the fact that He didn't.  I don't see Him in His earthly life as teetering on the brink, being pulled back at the last minute.  He does all after the council of His own will.

In like manner, you and I could NOT have not-sinned.  The proof is in the fact that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

But even if He DID experience His life, testing, and temptation 'like that', He did Father's will.  HIS will and Father's will are the same will.  One day it will be all of ours too. 

 
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Rene on August 21, 2014, 07:06:35 PM
We do worship one God (the Father and Jesus Christ), but let's not forget that Jesus Christ also has a God and His God is the Father.  It is not for no reason that Jesus stated, "...the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

Rom 15:6 - "In order that with one accord, with one mouth, ye maybe glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2Cor 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassions, and God of all encouragement"

2Cor 11:31 - "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus knoweth He who is blessed unto the ages that I am not speaking falsely"

Eph 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ"

Col 1:3 - "We are giving thanks unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always for you offering prayer"

1Pet 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead"
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 07:21:03 PM

Hi microlink, I saw all the Scripture from John, but not one of those say that Jesus is everything that the Father is and the same. Yes He is fully God, with the very nature of the Father as they are one, and we do see the Father through Christ.

John 8:19  Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

Since Jesus in the flesh was still fully God, that in and of itself means He would not sin.

James 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God, Father and Son as they are one, is not tempted to sin, because there is no lust for the physical things of this world. He would not have lusted even when He was in the flesh, because He had the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34).

1John 2:16  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 21, 2014, 09:15:10 PM

John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

O.K.  Let's look at the 1st Scripture I quoted, Hebrews 1:3.

The King James and the NKJV says Jesus is the express image of God.  The NASB says He is the exact representation of God.

Of course the NT was written in Greek.  The Greek word is charakter.  That word is number 5481 in Strong's Concordance and means, "The exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, ie. facsimile.

So per that Scripture, how is Jesus different from the Father?

Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts Hebrews 1:3?  That says Jesus is not the exact representation of the Father?

When Jesus said that if you have seen Him (Jesus) you have seen the Father---was Jesus a little confused?
Did He mean to say that you have almost seen the Father, but not quite?

Was poor Jesus confused again when He said, "I and Father are one."  Did He mean to say that there were two of Them?

In those ten Scriptures quoted previously from the Book of Isaiah, were they wrong?  They say that there is one God and He created everything alone.  Did He forget to say, " there is Jesus and Me and the holy spook makes three?"

In the Book of Philippians, where it states Jesus was equal with God---should we ignore that too, in order to make the Scriptures fit our personal opinions?



Sorry about the sarcasm Kat.  I do get carried away.


Some people are confused about something.  Before Jesus had emptied Himself, He had all power in heaven and earth.  After His Resurrection, He had all power in heaven and earth.

But during the 33 years or so that He had emptied Himself, in order to die, He was below the angels in power and life force.  He was fully human.  Some things He said about Himself at that time pertain to His human condition and are not about His power as God.  For example, He was hungry, He was thirsty, He tired, He grew in grace and knowledge----none of those things are applicable to God in His full power.


Well, it is obvious our little group are not of one mind on this matter.  But look at the interest it engenders.  God is bringing this issue to the fore.  I wonder why?  Why was Ray interested in this matter near the end of his life?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: microlink on August 21, 2014, 10:02:01 PM

Hi microlink, I saw all the Scripture from John, but not one of those say that Jesus is everything that the Father is and the same. Yes He is fully God, with the very nature of the Father as they are one, and we do see the Father through Christ.

John 8:19  Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

Since Jesus in the flesh was still fully God, that in and of itself means He would not sin.

James 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God, Father and Son as they are one, is not tempted to sin, because there is no lust for the physical things of this world. He would not have lusted even when He was in the flesh, because He had the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34).

1John 2:16  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat  :)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 10:03:15 PM

Look at the whole passage there John.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v. 2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (at the Majesty's Father's side, but not the Father),
v. 4  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Surely you know that an image or likeness or reproduction or facsimile is not the thing that it represents, neither is the Son.

I have never denied that the Father and the Son are one God, but I do not believe that makes them one and the same being and I do not see any Scripture that says that.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 21, 2014, 10:38:41 PM

Look at the whole passage there John.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v. 2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (at the Majesty's Father's side, but not the Father),
v. 4  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Surely you know that an image or likeness or reproduction or facsimile is not the thing that it represents, neither is the Son.

I have never denied that the Father and the Son are one God, but I do not believe that makes them one and the same being and I do not see any Scripture that says that.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

We love you Kat.  We just don't see eye to eye on this.

I've had a long day at work.  Need to get home and cook some hot dogs to eat, which is about the limit of my cooking skills.

But you do know that sitting at the right hand of majesty is symbolic language, not literal?  Some people have this delusion of God the Father with long white hair and beard sitting on a throne.  And then there is Jesus with the long brown hair and beard sitting on a throne at His right side.

Also God the Father is not a being or person.  He is this invisible force, which is everywhere.  I don't think our language is adequate to describe His greatness.  God will have to do.

I have multiple Scriptures that prove the Father is God.

I have multiple Scriptures that prove Jesus is God.

And I have a zillion Scriptures that prove God is one.  Not multiple entities.

If the Father is a separate (whatever) with separate thoughts and personality and existence.

If Jesus is a separate being (that word does apply to Him) with separate thoughts and personality and existence.

Then you have two separate Gods.  But the Scriptures do not teach that.

So, since I follow where the Scriptures lead, I am left with the conclusion of one God.  Many Scriptures such as 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:15 confirm that together the Father and Jesus are one God.  You can't have one without the other.  They do not do the same things; they do different things as 1 Cor 8:6 describes.  But they are not separate.

So that is where I am right now.  It doesn't bother me to stand alone.  I can't help but follow where He leads.

I'm not going to add anything further to this thread since I don't have more to add.  But the Scriptures do show us the Truth, and they do not contradict.  The two witnesses guide the way at God's direction.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 21, 2014, 11:45:56 PM
John I don't disagree with anything you just said. And no I don't believe there is a literal throne where the Father is literally sitting with the Son literally sitting there by His side... and yes the Son is a Being the Father is not.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 22, 2014, 01:44:45 AM
Bob, here is what you were asking about.

G2822
κλητός
klētos
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
called, 11
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Rom_1:1, Rom_1:6-7 (2), Rom_8:28, 1Co_1:1-2 (2), 1Co_1:24, Jud_1:1, Rev_17:14


G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect, 13
Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13
chosen, 7
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14
elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 22, 2014, 07:15:07 AM
Alpha and Omega / first and the last


the Father

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send itunto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:11

Who hath wrought and done, Calling the generations from the first? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last I am He. Isa 41:4

This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last;apart from me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6


And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freelyHe that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:6-7


the Son

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:17-18

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:7-8




Does God and the Son change?

Hebrew 1:8, Hebrew 13:8, Numbers 23:19, James 1:17, Romans 11:29, 1 Samuel 15:29, Malachi 3:6
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Joel on August 22, 2014, 11:52:05 AM
I personally do believe there is a literal presence to be enveloped in that has seldom been experienced here on earth.

Joel
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: indianabob on August 22, 2014, 12:48:42 PM
Thank you very much Dave.
I had not heard this explained the way Ray did in the Bible study.
Much to consider and very grateful.
Indiana Bob  ;D

Bob, here is what you were asking about.

G2822
κλητός
klētos
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
called, 11
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Rom_1:1, Rom_1:6-7 (2), Rom_8:28, 1Co_1:1-2 (2), 1Co_1:24, Jud_1:1, Rev_17:14


G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect, 13
Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13
chosen, 7
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14
elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 23, 2014, 09:04:21 AM
I was thrust into your arms at my birth.
You have been my God from moment I was born. Psa 22:10 NLT

On Thee I have been cast from the womb, From the belly of my mother Thou art my God. YLT

I was cast upon thee from my birth: thou art my God from the time I was born. WEB

I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. KJB

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God
.NKJB



Jesus is not a created being!



And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.Rev 5:13



Every creature worshiping that sitteth upon the throne and unto the lamb, if Jesus is created being then he should also joining those that worship God.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 23, 2014, 01:24:39 PM

Hi santgem,

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14  `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God; (YLT)

You cannot deny what is said there in Revelation, because there is a point about the Son being actually the first/chief creation of the Father. It is the Father who is the source by which we have this creation, He is greatest of all (John 10:29), He determined to bring this creation into being "by/through His Son" (Rom 11:36). So if this is the Father's creation, then Son was the "beginning" of this creation, not the 'beginner' or origin of it or something, because then it would be the Son's creation.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1Co 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (Concordant)

And everything is being reconciled to the Father (His creation) by/through the Son.

2Cor 5:18  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

But we do know the Son was "Firstborn over/of every/all creation... before all things."

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, (Concordant)

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------

Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
 
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 23, 2014, 02:00:58 PM
Maybe listen to all of this:

http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3)

I was off by one video. Try this one:

http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: walt123 on August 23, 2014, 02:08:51 PM
Hello ,all.

So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.

Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.


                                         WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST

Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;

1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.

2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.

Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.

3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.

If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.

Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!

On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.

At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.

Luke 2:48  And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.

By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.

v. 49  And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…

“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch. 

v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50  And they understood not…

They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.

I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”

So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?

This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;

Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).

Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?

Mary - God is your Father.

Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.

Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.

Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?

Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.

Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.

Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.

Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.

Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.

Jesus - I got what? What did I get?

Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.

Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.

I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.


Walt.


Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 23, 2014, 03:53:33 PM
Hello Kat,
Greetings!

It is very clear in Psa 22:10 saying that "thou art my God from the time I was born" or "thou art my God from my mother's belly"


What does it say, from my mother's belly / from the time i was born or from eternity?


The prophecy stated that Jesus has a God from the time he was born from, in the Scripture say from his mother's belly or he has a God from the time he was born on the earth not when the time when Jesus comes out from the Father.

even;

We cannot see in the OT when Jesus is still the  Yahweh/Jehovah  that he has a God but always saying "there is no God beside me".


I believe that the plan or drama started when Jesus sent by the Father to become human in order to save mankind.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 23, 2014, 03:54:37 PM
Maybe listen to all of this:

http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3)

I was off by one video. Try this one:

http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3)


Thanks, Dennis.  They both were very helpful, and I worshiped Him.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 23, 2014, 04:53:45 PM

Hi santgem,

Just because Psalms 22 says "thou art my God from the time I was born" it does not exclude that the Father was His God before that. Now when God is spoken of in the OT it includes the Father and Son... THEY are one - God from the beginning when the Son came forth.

Gen 1:26  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,

Gen 11:7  Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Compare that to this next verse that is speaking of the very same thing as Gen 1:26 where God is used instead of the plural pronoun, WE/OUR.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.

It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.

Luke 10:22  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 23, 2014, 05:22:24 PM

Hi santgem,

Just because Psalms 22 says "thou art my God from the time I was born" it does not exclude that the Father was His God before that. Now when God is spoken of in the OT it includes the Father and Son... THEY are one - God from the beginning when the Son came forth.

Gen 1:26  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,

Gen 11:7  Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Compare that to this next verse that is speaking of the very same thing as Gen 1:26 where God is used instead of the plural pronoun, WE/OUR.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.

It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.

Luke 10:22  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Again as i said that Jesus has a God when that certain time that Jesus sent to have a human form.

When Jesus made flesh, then at the time he has a God so speak with Psalm 22.

Can you not comprehend that when God created a God then you have two Gods?

but, when that God comes out with God that God will be one with that God so to speak in John 1

You said;
It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.

I said;
It was when the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.


Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Jer 32:27

It was when Jesus came in the flesh that the Father became Jesus God.



Jesus is God and with God.

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. Psalm 90:2

For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. Col 2:9
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 23, 2014, 06:28:46 PM


Can you not comprehend that when God created a God then you have two Gods?

but, when that God comes out with God that God will be one with that God so to speak in John 1

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

I am having a little bit of a hard time following what you are saying... When the Father brought forth the Son/Word in the beginning, they were not separated into 2 Gods, because I believe the Father brought the Son forth as an extended part of Himself. The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation. But that part is not disconnected from the Father, He is in His bosom and the Father has complete control over the Son.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

I believe They are one, the Son has always been total and completely God... a way to look at it, it's sort of like looking at a part of our body, say the arm, it's a part of me and functions for certain purposes, it's not considered everything that I am just part of me, but not separate at all. But I control it and it is totally mine/me. Not a perfect analogy, but maybe it will help you see where I'm coming from.

When the Son came into the flesh He did not separate from the Father then either. His physical existence did not break that bond of oneness, He was still God (Matt 1:23) and retained the Spirit without measure (John 3:34).

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

The elect will also join into that unity of Their oneness and will be perfected as sons of God at the first resurrection.

Luke 20:35  But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
v. 36  nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

John 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: microlink on August 23, 2014, 07:37:18 PM
There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.


8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
    “Everything is meaningless!”

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.

10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.

12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

All the rest is chasing the wind.

Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: indianabob on August 23, 2014, 08:08:17 PM
Ole Friend Walt,
I see from your letter that we often think alike.
Your way of writing and explaining is simple and reasonable and human.
I hope that the rest of us can think along similar lines and be teachable and humble enough to look at ourselves as little children, spiritually speaking.
I have benefited from all the comments on this subject, but I like your approach.

One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"

Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.

Of course he could have learned of it after his bar mitzva and while maturing into manhood with all of his connections in the temple and local synagogues through his uncle the priest and that seems to be allowed by much of the scriptural story.

I like to approach this from the perspective of simple and practical understanding of the human condition, allowing always for miracles both large and small performed by our Father God and Jesus' Father God through the agency of God's spirit. Hope we each may grow in grace and knowledge as the days pass.

Warm regards, Indiana Bob


Hello ,all.

So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.

Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.


                                         WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST

Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;

1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.

2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.

Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.

3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.

If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.

Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!

On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.

At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.

Luke 2:48  And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.

By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.

v. 49  And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…

“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch. 

v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50  And they understood not…

They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.

I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”

So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?

This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;

Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).

Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?

Mary - God is your Father.

Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.

Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.

Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?

Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.

Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.

Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.

Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.

Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.

Jesus - I got what? What did I get?

Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.

Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.

I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.


Walt.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Rene on August 23, 2014, 08:51:44 PM

Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.



Therefore, microlink, if we are focusing more on God, this topic has not been meaningless, but to the contrary, it has been very worthwhile.  8)

René
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 23, 2014, 09:55:41 PM

Hi Bob,

Quote
One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"

The One whom He gave up His Spirit to at His death.

Luke 23:46  Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit!" And having said this He breathed His last.

Quote
Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.

He had appeared a number of times in the OT as a man, His purpose when He was born of a woman was much more than that, He took on the flesh fully so He could experience it and feel what we have to with a lifetime as flesh and blood.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He was also "God with us" (Matt 1:23),  and yes He knew from where He came and for what purpose as He certainly retained the mind of God.. why would anybody think He had His mind and knowledge removed? We know very little about His early years, but we do know when He was only 12 years old He certainly knew who He was and already was teaching in the temple.

Luke 2:46  Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
v. 47  And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

Luke 2:49  And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?"

Now when He was about to be arrested and die a horrible death of crucifixion, there was no pretense there, He certainly was distressed by what He knew was ahead of Him and that shows He was going to suffer just like any person does.

Luke 22:44  And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
v. 8  And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

This was without a doubt the greatest act of love EVER, to do that for His creation... He was God and willingly lowered Himself to be like us and die the way He did for us and He knew full well what was going to happen to Him.

We can never be 'just' like Him, in that He was "highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name," (Phil 2:9).  But the elect will become perfected sons of God like Him, if raised in the first resurrection and they will then be one with God like the Son is.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17  and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Rev 3:21  To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev 21:6  And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7  He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 23, 2014, 10:20:26 PM
Let us just remember that if we believe Christ did not retain the mind of God, and was rather completely human, then we are, consciously or ignorantly, implying, Christ had a carnal mind. This is blasphemy and we should take care not to blaspheme God.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 23, 2014, 11:41:52 PM
I urge everyone to listen to what Ray had to say in ( (actually) both of the links Dennis provided--particularly the second one.
Sounds like we are about wrapped up here, , though I'm sure this won't be the last such thread.


Me?  I just don't think there IS a ''proof-text" that  sums all up.    NO Scripture is its own interpretation.  There is a lot to compare, spiritual with spiritual. 
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Joel on August 24, 2014, 12:03:16 AM
The concept or teaching that God is the Father, was not a new teaching, and that he has sons was not either. That there are many sons (gods) is also a Old Testament teaching that Jesus reminded his enemies of. Who did the Jews think Adam's Father was?
The Jews had the scriptures read, and taught unto them regularly in the Temple.
Only those that were blinded then as well as now, don't get the Truth as it is.
The Word (Jesus) is just as much God, as the Spirit Father is God, only the words (WORD) are never GREATER, (equal to but not greater) than the one that inspired the words.
Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Isaiah 64:8 But now , O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Joel



Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 24, 2014, 04:29:07 AM

Hi kAT,
Greetings!

Quote
I am having a little bit of a hard time following what you are saying... When the Father brought forth the Son/Word in the beginning, they were not separated into 2 Gods, because I believe the Father brought the Son forth as an extended part of Himself. The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation. But that part is not disconnected from the Father, He is in His bosom and the Father has complete control over the Son.

You said that “The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation”.

Be it known Kat when that time God brought forth  YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah he is not a Being, we did not know how God formed YHWH but we know that YHWH brought forth by God.


1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Do not be confused  on the above verse because when all things are brought forth through Jesus he is not yet in his human form, he is still YHWH.


How the YHWH become flesh?


Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Phl 2:6-7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Psa 22:10 I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

 

Now Jesus was born and had a flesh, and the moment he was born he had a God. In his flesh he had a God because the Lord is the God of all flesh.


Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. Psalm 90:2

For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. Col 2:9
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Abednego on August 24, 2014, 09:33:31 AM

John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

O.K.  Let's look at the 1st Scripture I quoted, Hebrews 1:3.

The King James and the NKJV says Jesus is the express image of God.  The NASB says He is the exact representation of God.

Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts Hebrews 1:3?  That says Jesus is not the exact representation of the Father?


Well, it is obvious our little group are not of one mind on this matter.  But look at the interest it engenders.  God is bringing this issue to the fore.  I wonder why?  Why was Ray interested in this matter near the end of his life?

Ok, sign me up on the confused list.  I understand the "exact representation" because Jesus said He only says what the Father says, and only does what He sees Him do".  (Paraphrasing... too early and I'm too tired (lazy) to look it up but you know the scripture I mean.

But exact representation? That would contradict Jesus saying the Father is greater.  That's not exact.

BRB the popcorn's almost ready.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 24, 2014, 10:31:36 AM
Go here and skip forward to 28 minutes: http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3) and pay attention.

Ray liked to say if something is true the more you study it the more it becomes true. The little I've skimmed this thread I see a lot of conjecture. In this audio Ray piles scripture on scripture. I don't hear any conjecture.

Also, in this audio Ray calls God a "being." My definition of a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human. Getting caught up in semantics is foolish when you know that no one is calling God the Father a human being.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: dave on August 24, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
I believe that when we are given the wisdom to understand the concept of ONE, then the idea of dividing ONE will cease.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 24, 2014, 11:31:26 AM
I believe that when we are given the wisdom to understand the concept of ONE, then the idea of dividing ONE will cease.

More conjecture. Concepts are not scripture. Beliefs are not scripture. One mans wisdom is another mans foolishness.

And the number one can certainly be divided. I divide one many times each week to get percentages.

Is anyone here saying God divided Himself when He created Jesus? Would God no longer be whole because He created Jesus? Is Jesus no longer whole because He created us? Are your parents less whole because they had children?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 24, 2014, 11:33:22 AM

Quote
Be it known Kat when that time God brought forth  YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah he is not a Being, we did not know how God formed YHWH  but we know that YHWH brought forth by God.

Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.

Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Also God came down and "walked" with Adam in the garden of Eden.

Gen 3:8  And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

He appeared to Abraham a number of times.

Gen 12:7  Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Gen 17:1  When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
v. 2  And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
v. 3  Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:
v. 4  "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
v. 5  No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham...

Gen 18:1  Then the LORD appeared to him (Abraham) by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2  So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

Jacob wrestles with God all night.

Gen 32:24  Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.

Gen 32:28  And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

Exo 6:2  And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am the LORD.
v. 3  I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I was not known to them.

1Co 15:47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

All these verses very distinctly show me that it was indeed a Being in the form/image of a man that the Father brought forth to be God over this creation.

Here is a place where Ray had spoke about Moses wanting to see God.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html -----

Let’s look at this… where Moses wanted to see God.

Exodus 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, You say unto me, Bring up this people: and You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.

Did Moses say, did I find grace in this angel’s eyes? Is this an angel?

v.14 And He said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

v. 17  And the LORD (Is this an angel? Then Lord, Jehovah, Yhovah) said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that you have spoken: for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.
v. 18  And he said, I beseech You, show me Your glory.
v. 19  And He said, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
v. 20  And He said, you canst not see My face: for there shall no man see Me, and live.
v. 21  And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shalt stand upon a rock:
v. 22  And it shall come to pass, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by:
v. 23  And I will take away Mine hand, and you shalt see My back parts: but My face shall not be seen.

Are we talking about an angel? That if he saw the backside of an angel or the face of an angel that it would kill him? I don’t think so. This is the “Lord.”  But it’s NOT God the Father.
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 24, 2014, 12:13:02 PM
More than once Ray explained ONE. I'll paraphrase:

I live in ONE nation. The United States of America. But I am just one of millions in this country.

I know people who share my beliefs on certain subjects. On those subjects we are ONE.

God the Father and Jesus share all Their beliefs about everything. This makes them One. But it does not make them the exact same being (or whatever word you prefer).

There are too many scriptures that show Jesus talking and praying to His Father. Was Jesus talking to Himself?

And as I've said before. Did Jesus actually die? Was He really dead? Can a dead man resurrect himself?

If Jesus and God are one and the same how come there are things Jesus does not know?
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 24, 2014, 02:45:01 PM

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Actually Dennis is right in his definition in a being " a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human".


Quote
The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.

In order for us to be on the same page i assumed when you said that the Father is not a being is like that he is not created and he is eternal. That in that case that i believe that when God bring forth YHWH he is also not a "being" or not created.

continuing;


Quote
Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.

Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.


let us hear from the God's words.


Numbers 12:6 And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say:“If there were prophets among you,I, the LORD, would reveal myself in visions. I would speak to them in dreams.
7But not with my servant Moses.Of all my house, he is the one I trust.8I speak to him face to face,
clearly, and not in riddles!He sees the LORD as he is.


The Lord show himself in a vision and  be able to take in any form as he wishes. He is sending messengers either in the form of a man, angel voice etc. I do not believe that Abraham and Jacob actually see God.

We are not to believe  that when The Lord manifested himself as a human that he  made himself of no reputation in the OT.

The realization of the Lord being in the flesh is when he "Phl. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 24, 2014, 03:33:04 PM

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Actually Dennis is right in his definition in a being " a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human".


Quote
The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.

In order for us to be on the same page i assumed when you said that the Father is not a being is like that he is not created and he is eternal. That in that case that i believe that when God bring forth YHWH he is also not a "being" or not created.

continuing;


Quote
Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.

Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.


let us hear from the God's words.


Numbers 12:6 And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say:“If there were prophets among you,I, the LORD, would reveal myself in visions. I would speak to them in dreams.
7But not with my servant Moses.Of all my house, he is the one I trust.8I speak to him face to face,
clearly, and not in riddles!He sees the LORD as he is.


The Lord show himself in a vision and  be able to take in any form as he wishes. He is sending messengers either in the form of a man, angel voice etc. I do not believe that Abraham and Jacob actually see God.

We are not to believe  that when The Lord manifested himself as a human that he  made himself of no reputation in the OT.

The realization of the Lord being in the flesh is when he "Phl. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

Hi Santgem,

I don't think Kat is saying that Jesus appeared as flesh and blood when He appeared to Moses or that He is in anyway flesh and blood but rather that He has the "form" or "likeness" of a man. If He is the image of God that we as humans are to behold in order to understand God the Father, and in fact God, it would make sense that this image would be in a form that we can relate to.

I don't claim to have the answers or who is right or wrong, but I certainly see this idea as being possible and the scriptures seem to imply this, though again, it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in a subject as deep and profound as this one, we might not be looking at the totality of the scriptures on this matter. I would imagine such an exposition would take up pages upon pages of individual scripture just to lay it all down, let alone explain it.

Either way, I find this discussion to be very edifying as I am reminded of old things and seeing new things as well.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 24, 2014, 08:09:53 PM
This thread is proof of everlasting life.  It won't die.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ray said in his April 2, 2011 message that his previous writings about the nature of God and Jesus were incomplete in that he (Ray) did not bring together all the Scriptures on this subject.

Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.

Therefore, it was Ray himself who acknowledged his previous teachings on this subject are not complete.

Ray's message of April 2, 2011 has been removed from the B-T website.  I believe it was wrong to do so.  But God will judge.

Ray is not Jesus.  Ray's teachings are not Scripture.  What I respected about Ray was his adherence to God's Word and respect for it.  And his courage to rethink a subject to see if it truly conformed to the Scriptures.  I talked with Ray a few times in person and several times over the telephone.  Ray's respect for God's Scriptures is what stood out to me.

In one of our conversations I told Ray that I didn't think the majority of members of the B-T Forum would accept where he was headed with this Enigma/Nature of God subject.  Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit of God leads us.

Since, Ray brought this matter up, I've been studying all the Scriptures I could find on this subject.  I asked God to teach me because I want to know all there is about Him.  What He truly is.

God has showed me that He is One.  There are not two, or three of them.  Only One God, Who is unique and special and unlike anything we can imagine.  Who can appear before Abraham under the terenbith trees of Mamre, and as an actual human being on the earth and be killed, and at the same time be beyond the heaven of heavens because nothing can contain Him.

But it is apparent that there are not two of us who believe the same thing on this issue.  It is a source of confusion.  I am going to try and stay out of this discussion in the future.

Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls before someone who cannot appreciate value.  Only God can bring understanding on this matter.  God said the time will come when all will know Me (God) from the least to the greatest.

What a Great and Magnificent God He truly is.  What a blessing that He is creating mankind in His image.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 24, 2014, 08:37:37 PM
Quote
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.

I've said this before and I guess I have to say it again.

Ray was doing a LOT of pain medication the last year of his life. There were more than one post he wanted on the forum that I asked Craig not to post. He was not making sense.

I questioned Ray more than once at breakfast about this and he had no answers for my questions.

Ray was not always thinking right the last year of his life. He was confused much of the time. He was wrong about this.

He never figured this out because it contracted what he taught many years ago.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 24, 2014, 09:50:11 PM
Dennis, I take your word that there may have been things Ray wanted posted that shouldn't have been.  However, what HAS BEEN posted never 'contradicted' in the truest sense what preceded it.  It only amplified it, refined it, explained it.  That's my firm 'view' on the matter.

Hopefully, a comforting word.  If any of our 'thoughts' on God have gone beyond seeing Him as a Trinity of equal parts or a six-foot man who happens to be invisible with a Son then you have "come out of" Sunday School...at least the one I went to.   ;D



Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 24, 2014, 10:32:00 PM
John, with respect. I don't take hear-say evidence into the court of my own thoughts.  No matter how many conversations you had with Ray, it is still possible that you misunderstood and therefor are misrepresenting his thoughts, in part or in full.  Having been guilty of that myself recently, I am fully aware it can be done.

Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 24, 2014, 10:50:42 PM
John, with respect. I don't take hear-say evidence into the court of my own thoughts.  No matter how many conversations you had with Ray, it is still possible that you misunderstood and therefor are misrepresenting his thoughts, in part or in full.  Having been guilty of that myself recently, I am fully aware it can be done.

Hey Dave.  No need to respect me.  I'm just a man.  If you think I'm lying, just say so.   :D

However, I did not misrepresent Ray's April 2, 2011 message.  It was in writing and on this website at least a couple of years, I believe.  I found Ray coherent and writing in plain English and quoting Scriptures in support of his statements that his and our understanding of this nature of God matter was not complete.  There are similar emails from Ray on this same matter in the emails section of the Forum.

I will also add that in my conversations with Ray, he was coherent and logical in his words and thoughts and freely quoted Scriptures in support of his statements to me.  I will also add that I found him to be a gentleman in his answers to me, even when I completely disagreed with him on Dr. Steger's health rules.  We parted as friends and on good terms after my last conversation with him.  Our last words concerned the Scripture in Roman's 14 that the Kingdom of God doesn't consist of food or drink.  (Of course, no need to believe me, with all respect.)
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 25, 2014, 01:40:10 AM
I didn't call you a liar, or say you were lying.
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: santgem on August 25, 2014, 06:59:54 AM
Quote
Hi Santgem,

I don't think Kat is saying that Jesus appeared as flesh and blood when He appeared to Moses or that He is in anyway flesh and blood but rather that He has the "form" or "likeness" of a man. If He is the image of God that we as humans are to behold in order to understand God the Father, and in fact God, it would make sense that this image would be in a form that we can relate to.

I don't claim to have the answers or who is right or wrong, but I certainly see this idea as being possible and the scriptures seem to imply this, though again, it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in a subject as deep and profound as this one, we might not be looking at the totality of the scriptures on this matter. I would imagine such an exposition would take up pages upon pages of individual scripture just to lay it all down, let alone explain it.

Either way, I find this discussion to be very edifying as I am reminded of old things and seeing new things as well.

God bless,
Alex


Hello Alex,
Greetings

Actually you are right, when He appeared to Moises He has the “form” or “Likeness” of a man. Moises did see the back parts of God which is a form.


Speaking in the OT, YHWH cannot have his human form with flesh and blood or else it will contradicts hundreds of verses in the Scripture.
If YHWH had his human form as a man, then he will be under law as
“Gal. 4:4and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law”

Jesus fulfilled the law in the NT, we are now under grace.

Another things is  the prophecy. He was prophesied  that he "He had to be born of a virgin", "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse", "He is despised and rejected of men, dying on the cross", "they pierced my hands and my feet" and many more. Prophecy is exact and precised  and there is no way that it cannot be fulfilled. Jesus has to fulfill the prophecy concerning him. No one can thwarted the prophecy. If said that he will become a man on that day, year, hour then it must be done and must be materialized.



I just listened to the audio that posted by Dennis then suddenly it stopped, I skip the 28 minutes but did not work. I did it many times but not work.

Anyhow I heard Ray saying that Physical is temporary and Spirit is eternal.

If Spirit is eternal and “YHWH” who is the “I Am” who is “Jesus” and Jesus is  Lord and the Lord is that Spirit, then Jesus is eternal.




Let me give you my insight that i do not believe that Jesus is a created being.


   
Let us just say that when God(Father) begotten the Son(God) which is YHWH, YHWH is in the bosom of the Father.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son(the only begotten God), who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


YHWH, the only begotten Son(God)  being in the form of God empty himself and made in the likeness of men.

Phl 2:6-7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,


The only remaining in heaven is the Father because the YHWH who is in the bosom of the Father emptied himself to become a man. But before he became a man he is sharing the glory with the Father.

Jhn 17:5'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Now YHWH becomes a man.  This son shall be called Jesus.

Mat 1:21-23 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Again God bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world.

 Heb 1:5-6 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


The man Jesus is now subjected under the law so that he can fulfill the law and have God because he had the flesh and had God the moment he was born.

Gal 4:4 and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?


Jesus accomplished the task given to him by his Father.


Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst 28….. he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

After Jesus was born by a virgin and after resurrection and glorified, Jesus is still a man. Jesus had a God and Father.

Rev 1:6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man  whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


This now we can relate to God our Father through Jesus. Jesus is God and man at the same time. He will be God and man forever. The man Jesus Christ is our mediator to the Father. 
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Kat on August 25, 2014, 10:13:55 AM

Santgem, I really don't think you want to hear an answer from me or care what I have to say, but I'm going to give one anyway.

Quote
when He appeared to Moises He has the “form” or “Likeness” of a man. Moises did see the back parts of God which is a form.


Speaking in the OT, YHWH cannot have his human form with flesh and blood or else it will contradicts hundreds of verses in the Scripture.
If YHWH had his human form as a man, then he will be under law as
“Gal. 4:4and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law”

Jesus fulfilled the law in the NT, we are now under grace.

The thing that you seem to think is that God being in the form or likeness of a man in the OT, as I showed Scripture that said He was many times (both in spirit form as a man and appearing bodily as a man as well) then that meant I was saying that He was human at those times? That is not what I was saying at all... angels can appear to people in the form of a man, does that make them human? God gave His Son the form of a man because He was to be their God over this creation... it was for the purpose so that we could identify with Him, it was for our benefit.

In the OT the Son, who was the only God made know in the OT, could and did take on the form of a man, as the Scripture says, BUT He did not become human until He was born of a human woman. This is a significant point that I think you are missing.

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

In the OT He was the Creator of the law, so He understood it's purpose very well. It was not until He was born as human to a Jewish mother that He BECAME a Jew, that is what made Him under the law.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Post by: Rene on August 25, 2014, 11:39:07 AM
We have been warned that there will be false teachers even from among us.

2Pet 2:1 - "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

But God's word also assures us that it is not possible for His chosen elect to be deceived.

Matt 24:24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

I trust and believe God's word. Lets heed the warnings, and take comfort in His assurance.  With that being said, I am going to lock this tread.  If anyone will like to continue the conversation, start a new one. :)