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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Andy_MI on November 21, 2006, 04:48:19 PM
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Hi Ray, I found your website and simply love it! I was wondering, though, it is my understanding that it is not scriptural to eat pork, therefore I don't. But my family is constantly giving me grief, saying that the law was abolished when Jesus came, and its not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of the mouth (but that has to do with cleansing of the hands, if I'm not mistaken), and their other argument is "As long as you give thanks over it, it is okay to eat it.". Would you agree that Isaiah 66:15-17 backs up at the time of Jesus second coming, we are still not to eat pork (as well as other unclean animals mentioned in Genesis). My family also argues that all that is for the Jews. I disagree....help me please, to see the light. The more I dig into the Bible the more confused I get.... May God Bless you and keep you safe,
Julie
Dear Julie:
You bring up an interesting point and an interesting Scripture. I have learned and I have begun the last couple of years, to stress that we need to read ALL THE WORDS of a Scipture and pay close attention to ALL the words. You have done what most do with a Scripture such as this:You noticed that Swine (pig, pork, sow, bacon, ham, etc.) was eaten by those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves IN THE GARDEN BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST...." Excuse me, but what did Isaiah say? Forget for the moment what he meant; what did he SAY? Ah, we'll just check another translation and get this thing all straightened out:
"The self-sanctified and the self-cleansed to the gardens follow one by one in the portals..." (Concordant Literal Old Testament). Ah there it is. There is WHAT? What-he-say? "...to the gardens follow one by one in the portals." I'll give ya ten dollars if you can explain that? Let's try another:
"...for the gardens, Behind a certain thing [what's 'a thing?'] in the midst...." (Rotherham's Amplified Bible). Is that better? How about this:
"...to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst...." (The New International Version). Any ideas? No?
It only seems to get worse the more versions we read.
"...as followers of one who stands within...." (New American Version for Cathoilics). Boy oh boy, NOW we are getting down to it. Down to WHAT? Tell ya what: I will give FIFTY dollars if you can tell me what that means?
But let's go on. You over look or at least failed to question another portion of this Scripture: "...eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."
Isaiah talked for SIXTY-SIX CHAPTERS, and climaxes with this stern warning concerning those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves, IN THE GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together says the Lord."
You forgot to mention "THE MOUSE," Julia. Who are those who are guilty of, "eating THE MOUSE?" We know that most of the world eats pork, but who eats MICE?
What religion or large group of people is so prominant that they have the climax of the Book of Isaiah attributed to them, who "...in the GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE, eating...THE MOUSE...' And where is the Second and Third Witness to this Scripture to prove its meaning?
Three verses later we read: "...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED...." (Verse 24). What is that? Now to the Sermon on the mount:
"But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the JUDGMENT and whosoever shall say to his borther, Raca, shall be in danger of the COUNCIL [Jewish Sanhedrin], but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL [GEHENNA] FIRE...where the worm is not deceaseing and the fire is not going out" (Matt. 5:21 & Mark 9:44).
WHEN was anyone angry with a brother and in danger of "hell fire?" When did anyone call a brother Rach or fool and endangered himself of the Sanhedrin (which no longer exists) or Gehenna Fire?
If you can explain Matt. 5:21-22 and Isaiah 66:17 & 24, you will have a pretty good understanding of THE ENTIRE BIBLE!
Let me know what you think? I have given you GIANT clues--to him that has an ear! The members of the Forum can join in too, if you wish. Send me your explanation of Isaiah 66:17? Who said that the Bible was EASY to understand?
I will be explaining these verses in Part D of my Hell series (if I ever get it finished).
God be with you,
Ray
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(Isa 66:17 LITV) Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine's flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse, these are cut off together, says Jehovah.
(Isa 66:18 LITV) For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
This is interesting, notice they sanctify and purify 'themselves' to the gardens each one in the midst. So, naturally we must ask what is in the midst of the garden of Eden?
(Gen 2:9 LITV) And out of the ground Jehovah God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The Tree of Life was also in the middle of the garden; also the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
(Gen 3:2 LITV) And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,
(Gen 3:3 LITV) but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.
Be careful to notice God said there are 'two' trees in the middle. Now, Eve speaks of a single tree in the garden. They were free to eat of the 'Tree of Life', but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(Gen 2:16 LITV) And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
(Gen 2:17 LITV) but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
I think this is speaking of the carnality in each of us, that we desire to chose and make our own gods to gain the knowledge of good and evil, instead of relying on the one and only God and eat His fruit.
To eat of the Tree of Life, it takes a denying of self and our own righteous works and enter the sabbath rest of God. This also goes along good with repentence of 'dead works'.
(Heb 9:14 LITV) by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!
(Heb 9:15 LITV) And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
(Heb 9:16 LITV) For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered.
(Heb 9:17 LITV) For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living.
Cool verses here in Hebrews. There can not be any 'dead works' from those who truly follow Christ and enter the new covenant. It is only affirmed over those dead. The 'first death'?
Probably plenty more here, any other thoughts?
God bless,
Gary
PS--read 1Sam.:chapter 6. God seems to have a sense of humor with self righteous works that coincides with the mouse or mice.
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Lev 11:29-30
These also shall be unclean to you among the swarming things that swarm on the earth:
the weasel, and the mouse, and the great lizard after its kind;
and the gecko, and the monitor, and the lizard, and the sand lizard, and chameleon.
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I've been studying this verse and have come to some interesting ideas on this.
So here's what I think this 'may' be about.
I think the context of this chapter 66, is Christ's return.
First in v. 2 His address is to the Saints,
v.2..."But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."
Then in v.3-5 His address is to the church,
v.3...."These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
v. 4...."because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."
v.5...."Your brothers who hate you and cast you out for my name's sake have said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy'; but it is they who shall be put to shame. "
v.6 Christ's return and v.7-14 I believe all these verses are about the resurrection of the Saints.
v. 10-16...."10Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her;....and the hand of the LORD shall be known to his servants,..."
... "14and he shall show his indignation against His enemies." (this is Christ's return in power Rev. 19:11,15). "15For behold, the LORD will come in fire,.....16and those slain by the LORD shall be many."
Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."
In v.17 "Those who sanctify an purify themselves"
The elect are sanctify in Christ not themselves.
1Co 1:2 "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints..."
In v. 17 "to go into the gardens, following one in the midst,"
Is this speaking of the church, only partakes of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and not of the other tree in the midst of the garden, the tree of life (Jesus Christ)?
Gen. 2:9..... "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
In v.17 "eating pig's flesh and the abomination"
To eat is to consume, and can refer to getting knowledge of good or bad.
Rev 2:7 "To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." (conquers or Saints, eat or comsume Christ's Spirit)
In v. 17 the eating of pig's flesh, in OT (this scripture Isaiah is in the OT) this was unclean.
Deu 14:8 "And the pig, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch."
In v. 3 it was speaking of the church, who offer's pig's blood (something unclean to God), and they delight in their abominations.
v.3 "he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood;.... These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
In v. 17 mouse (Webster's Intermediate Dic.) mouse or mice 2 : a person without spirit or courage---mouse-like.
The end of v. 17 "shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."
Rev 6:14 "The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Rev 6:17 "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."
This is all put together as I see it,
but I realize that it is not going to be totally right, and maybe not at all right.
I would appreciate it, if someone could bring better understanding to any of this.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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So true, good points. This got me thinking of David and the Psalms. Here is David, a man after Gods own heart, always speaking of being surrounded by his enemies. Those self righteous workers are right in the midst right along with us, always there constantly condemning setting traps.
Jesus said we will be hated by all men for His names sake. Here again, being surrounded by the enemies of God. These too are the ones who believe in God, but deny His saving power. Now, seeing us in this situation, God requires us to forgive them. Amazing stuff here, this to me is just another proof of the non-existence of their fabled hellhole.
Ray is right, there is plenty here. 8)
God bless,
Gary
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What a wonderful discussion :)
Isa 66:17 - They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
I am by no means a scholar, so please forgive my ignorance. :)
The above verse seems to have two main parts:
1. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh,
2. and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
So what/who is the abomination? It can only be those of the first part of this verse.
This then leaves those and the mouse shall be consumed together. I do not think that this verse in any way indicates that those of part 1 eat mice.
The 2nd witness to the fact that mice are unclean can be found at:
Lev 11:29 - These also [shall be] unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
This of course does not answer the question of whether or not the flessh of swine is still considered unclean. Christ spoke of swine on more than one occasion; however, he never explicitly indicated that they were not to be eaten. Christ did not exactly paint a pleasant picture concerning pigs and by reading the Scripture below, one must make their own mind up concerning the cleanliness.
I for one do eat pork, ham and bacon. Am I going against God's will/plan. I do not believe so; however, I can only pray that his full discernment concerning this issue is given me at the time I need it. God has been ever so gracious to me, and though I am undeserving of his generosity, I know in my heart that I will be given what I need when I need it.
The words of Jesus concerning swine.
Mat 7:6 - Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 8:30 - And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 - So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32 - And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Mar 5:11 - Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
Mar 5:12 - And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
Mar 5:13 - And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
Mar 5:14 - And they that fed the swine fled, and told [it] in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
Mar 5:16 - And they that saw [it] told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and [also] concerning the swine.
Luk 8:32 - And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Luk 8:33 - Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
Luk 15:15 - And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 - And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
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holy smokes what a wonderfull study!!
i see that the word mouse could be acually spider, anyone have anything on this??
probably from the same as (05908) in the secondary sense of attacking
just thinking here, why mouse?
peace
chuck
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are the gardens mentioned in Isaiah 66:17 the religuos institutions of the world?and the one tree is the so called leader of the institution? the swines flesh being falsified bible doctrine? the abomination is belief in a free will? and the mouse is the weak who are swallowed up by their doctrine? seen this on the message board and it got my curiosity up. thanks Richard-King NC
Richard:
But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?" How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"
Ray
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Hi,
Kat we (my hubby and i ) agree with what you see. With regard to the mice, the philistines in Samuel sent the ark back with their sin offering, which included 5 golden mice.
(1Sa 5:11) So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go again to his own place, that it slay us not, and our people: for there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.
(1Sa 6:3) And they said, If ye send away the ark of the God of Israel, send it not empty; but in any wise return him a trespass offering: then ye shall be healed, and it shall be known to you why his hand is not removed from you.
(1Sa 6:4) Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.
1Sa 6:5) Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.
These mice where images, like false idols.
Also, serpents eat mice (vermin) and satan was the serpent in the Garden. But where is the synagogue of satan?.......in the churches.
This all links in to Revelation 19 when Jesus comes back.
Also, i see them, when they are behind the tree, that this is the churches hiding behind the cross, when they know not Him. Gnawing away like mice, on their fleshly desires ?
Sansmile
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holy smokes what a wonderfull study!!
i see that the word mouse could be acually spider, anyone have anything on this??
probably from the same as (05908) in the secondary sense of attacking
just thinking here, why mouse?
peace
chuck
Saw the same Chuck. Kind of has me scratching my head...
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Also, i see them, when they are behind the tree, that this is the churches hiding behind the cross, when they know not Him. Gnawing away like mice, on their fleshly desires ?
Sansmile
Thought provoking Sansmile ;D.
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Do these verses in Isaiah 65 give us more keys to understanding?
Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
The mouse(5909) in Isa 66:17 is defined in Strong's as a "nibbling mouse" as well as "attacking."
H5909
עכבּר
‛akbâr
ak-bawr'
Probably from the same as H5908 in the secondary sense of attacking; a mouse (as nibbling): - mouse.
What is being fed and consumed in the churches even by the lukewarm nibblers is an abomination to the Lord?
That is what I am seeing.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
PS I am looking forward to Ray's answer.
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Yes Sansmile,
The tree reference is right on!
Acts 5:30 (Amplified Bible)
30The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, Whom you killed by hanging Him on a tree (cross).
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Isa 66:17 (KJV) They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. Note, "tree" is not in the original transcripts.
(CLV) The self-sanctified and the self-cleansed to the gardens follow one by one in the portals, eating the flesh of swine, and the roamer and the mouse. They shall be swept up together,averring is Yahweh."
Those who claim to know God, but walk in their own ways and don't search for the truth, (just like those in the OT times who offered sacrifices to the Lord, but their heart was far from him), this self-work is blasphemous to our Lord. These people believe that their works are actually righteous. These are people that provoke God to anger continuously. These are self-sanctified and self-cleansed people. In the midst of the garden, (field/world/or church) these people serve themselves, through the gateway they will follow, one after another, learning what is unclean, and idolatrous, all being entangled in this network of filth. These people shall be all-together consumed by our Father, by His fire, and the slain shall be many.
I think I've summarized what a lot of you have already said.
This is an amazing passage and sure reveals a lot!
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my references;
1. mouse H5909, from H5908:
עכּבישׁ ‛akkâbîysh ak-kaw-beesh'
Probably from an unused root in the literal sense of entangling; a spider (as weaving a network): - spider.
2. Isa 66:16 The LORD's fiery sword will bring justice everywhere on this earth and execute many people
3. Isa 65:2-5 All day long I have reached out to stubborn and sinful people going their own way. They keep making me angry by sneering at me, while offering sacrifices to idols in gardens and burning incense to them on bricks. They spend their nights hiding in burial caves; they eat the meat of pigs, cooked in sauces made of stuff unfit to eat. And then they say to others, "Don't come near us! We're dedicated to God." Such people are like smoke, irritating my nose all day.
4. Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate. The gate to destruction is wide, and the road that leads there is easy to follow. A lot of people go through that gate.
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Love,
Marie
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Very good post Marie,
It is interesting how the different translations have a variety of definitions and interpretations. I checked out many on "Biblegate" but I failed to consult Rotherham's.
This is how it is written there;
Isa 66:17 [[They who hallow themselves and purify themselves for the gardens. Behind a certain thing(b) in the midst, Who eat the flesh of swine and the abomination, and the mouse]]
<Together shall be cut off>
Declareth Yahweh
Footnote (b)
"one" 'After one in the midst' . . the mystagogue or chief celebrant in the mystic performance
Mystery Babylon?
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Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine’s flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse – these are cut off together, says Jehovah. (Interlinear Bible Translation)
Each one in the midst for me means the beast within us before our conversion and practising abominations idolatry and hateful things to God…. 2 Thes 2 : 4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshipped, even to his actually taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.
This splits, for me into three kinds of self-sanctification.
a) INDIVIDUAL: 2 Cor 10 : 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God….
The individual that follows their imagination and puffs up with self-exaltation, self-aggrandizement and self-approval…this is counter and in opposition to true knowledge of God.
Self-sanctification with the Beast in the midst of each one of us before conversion.
· Rom 2 : 8 But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.
· Rev 21 : 8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters, those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God, and all liars, those who knowingly convey untruth (Church heresy) by word or deed, all of these shall have their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death. Matt 23 : 9 And do not call anyone in the church on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in Heaven. Matt 10 : 37 He who loves and takes more pleasure in father or mother more than in Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves and takes more pleasure in son or daughter more than in Me is not worthy of Me.
b) NATIONAL: 2 Tim 4 : 3 …there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food – catch opinions that tickle their fancy. They’ll turn their backs on truth and chase mirages.(The Message)
As in Israel’s sins of idolatry in the gardens with Asherah or totem pole type idols called tree here….The centres of idolatry were in the midst of wooden places or sacred groves and high places….(like the high places of Christendom, sacred groves of idolatry where statues are kissed and images are worshiped. These wooden places that will burn down as stubble under the consuming fire of God)
The idea here is that people will seek to be sanctified and ceremonially purified (accepted, tagged and labelled as belonging to this or that Church or sacred grove group. Made part of this group by public baptism into such a group made ceremonially united to their teachings through group traditionalism and customs of man made doctrine which are to God swine and mouse sacrifices to idols.)
· Lev 11 : 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you….vs. 41-42…and every creeping thing (all creatures who move on their bellies like snakes, creatures, lizards, frogs, mice, rats, hares and all creatures having more than four legs were unclean to Israel.) that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
For me this widens into cultures that look away from Christ and are known to me as the Pagan religions with the Asherah pole in their midst and ( as in those who have entered by another gate who are the brigands and thieves in the sheep fold John 10 : 1 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who does not enter by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, elsewhere, from some other quarter, is a thief and a robber )as in the little Foxes that spoil the vine working as employees of Mystery Babylon.
This is National to me because there are for me only two Nations. Those who know Christ’s voice, who follow and aspire to Him and those who don’t.
c) SPIRITUAL: Rom 9 : 27 And Isaiah calls out over Israel; Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea (many are called), only the remnant, a small portion of them( the chosen, the proven faithful one’s) will be saved from perdition, condemnation, judgment.
Heb12 : 15 Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look after one another, to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God’s grace, His unmerited favour and spiritual blessing, in order that no root of resentment, rancour, bitterness, or hatred shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it.( Is this perhaps the link to Matt 5 : 21 ?)
If we feel superior or prideful against those who persecute us, who slander us and those who speak contemptuously against us….if we do not forgive and pray for them who abuse us,…if we find ourselves in a situation wherein we know others are harmed because of our vanity or pride and we do not try to make peace…if we take our place before God at the expense of others…If we feel we are the elect and superior ones who are meat eaters and if we diminish the little ones of Christ though self appointed vanity and pride falling prey to thinking we are more blessed, more favoured and more important to God.. we can be liable to join them for whom the Lake of Fire is prepared!
Forgive them Father…for they know not what they do….is to us the direction we need assume if we are to lay down our lives for those who are stampeding us to death as they hurry on their way into delusions prepared for them by God and fire unquenchable made living in a real experience of unquenchable attachments to greed, lust, envy and all the burning worms that eat away at the soul given to the sins of the carnal prideful unloving vanity of the flesh..
I agree with you Gary .....speaking of the carnality in each of us, that we desire to chose and make our own gods to gain the knowledge of good and evil, instead of relying on the one and only God
I really enjoyed all the insights and this from Kat shows many self appointed religions who profess the authority to mediate between us and Christ! In v.17 "Those who sanctify an purify themselves"
The elect are sanctify in Christ not themselves.....or others!....Christ is our Advocate before God not Pope, Pontif or mankind.
Hope to have your thoughts regarding how I see Isaiah 66:17....
Arcturus :)
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This is what Ray is trying to get us to zero in on...
Richard:
But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?" How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"
Ray
I'm stumped so far. Will try again tomorrow!
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Isa 66:17 [[They who hallow themselves and purify themselves for the gardens. Behind a certain thing(b) in the midst, Who eat the flesh of swine and the abomination, and the mouse]] <Together shall be cut off> Declareth Yahweh
Footnote (b)
"one" 'After one in the midst' . . the mystagogue or chief celebrant in the mystic performance
Mystery Babylon?
Hi Joe,
interesting reference...a mystagogue. This is what I see re: those who are self-sanctified; entering a mystagogue, - exactly; "mystery babylon", one after the other they follow the ways of man before them> right into the broad gate that leads to destruction. Mystery is an excellent word here, because it has stumped and blinded so many. Not only is God's kingdom a mystery, but also the iniquity that abounds in this world is a mystery.
2Th 2:7 (KJV) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?" How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"
Hi M Oliver,
That's just it, they THINK they are sanctified by "eating mice", they believe THEY HAVE accepted Jesus, they believe by joining their church they are made right, but they do not see they are entangling themselves in a network of filth.
What do you see?
Love,
Marie
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This is what Ray is trying to get us to zero in on...
Richard:
But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?" How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"
Ray
"sanctified"....showing themselves holy. How
"eating mice?" ...through abomnible practices of idolitary . Where
"garden?"...Mystery Babylon and her harlot daughters. Who
Christiandom. (Would the harlot daughters be the other Pagan religions of the world? The religions outside Christianity?)
Nothing literal here.....all symbolic
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This is way over my head but sounds like those that set themselves apart are the nation of judah and the other group are the gentile nations and God is going to punish them both together.Now thats what I get out of the literal word,that judah had become as bad and the gentile nations when it came to obeying Him,I could aply to the church that God sees the people that beleave in freewil,those that sanctify themselves,like he does those in the world that are unclean.when I read that it seem to me that there are two groups,those that sanctify themselves and those that eat unclean foods,
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It comes to mind something that Ray said, I'll paraphrase:
"The whole Bible is ONE GIANT PARABLE. It all speaks about the same subject: Many are called, but few are chosen." (Paraphrased)
I think what Arcturus brought into attention is true and very important here. The garden symbolizes the spiritual state of Mystery Babylon. What happened (and still happens) in the garden?:
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:16-17 KJV)
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Gen 3:2-3 KJV)
The tree of knowledge is in the midst of the garden. Adam and Eve ate of it.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (Gen 3:4-7 KJV)
Now in the end they knew that they were naked, but perhaps most important, they were ashamed. Because of this they began making for themselves filthy garments. Before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were not even ashamed:
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Gen 2:25 KJV)
When you are in the garden, you don't truly know that you are naked and miserable, you think you will take care of it all yourself:
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: (Rev 3:17 KJV)
The next verse speaks about gold:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. (Rev 3:18 KJV)
We all must "go to the market" (buy) to get the gold tried in the fire, as opposed to worshiping our own golden mice:
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isa 66:17 KJV)
When you trust that knowledge of good and evil (your own knowledge and works) is enough to take care of things, you are purifying yourself in the gardens BEHIND the one tree in the midst, and that is abomination, mouse worshiping.
This is how I see it, but I look forward to stand corrected if I'm wrong!
God bless you and keep you,
Eirik
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I'm not sure if this verse is pertinent or not.
I feel dumber than a box of hammers with this topic. :D
About the garden:
Luk 13:18-19 ASV
(18 He said therefore, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I liken it?
(19) It is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his own garden; and it grew, and became a tree; and the birds of the heaven lodged in the branches thereof.
About the one standing in the midst:
Mar 13:14 KJVR
(14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:
Peace,
Andy
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Hi M Oliver,
That's just it, they THINK they are sanctified by "eating mice", they believe THEY HAVE accepted Jesus, they believe by joining their church they are made right, but they do not see they are entangling themselves in a network of filth.
What do you see?
Love,
Marie
I took Ray up on his email offer and sent him an answer saying basically the same thing that everyone else is saying. We all get that part of it ie. Christendom-false doctrines-heading for the second resurrection but this is how Ray responded back...
Mark:
But WHY DO THEY EAT MICE?
Ray
Maybe I am reading his challenge wrong but he sure seems to be trying to get us to zero in on "WHY" "MICE". In the original email that was posted he did ask the lady if there was a spiritual match to this somewhere. I've read Ray long enough to know that he is saying that there is but he wants us to find it. That is the part that has me stumped. I've done what everyone else has I'm sure...e-sword-strong's-interlinear etc. but I can't nail it.
"mice" or "mouse" as you all have seen is not used very much at all so I'm wondering if I am blind when I read those verses or is there another Scripture somewhere that he is referring to that does not use the word??
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Hi.
"Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,…”
Isaiah 1:29
Surely you will be ashamed of the oaks which you have desired,
And you will be embarrassed at the gardens which you have chosen.
Isaiah 65:3
A people who continually provoke Me to My face,
Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;
This reminded me of the people of Israel desiring Saul, a “human king” over a Theocracy.
I think this would apply to us today as anytime an individual chooses “man-made” religions practice or the “traditions of men” over truly desiring the wisdom of God and wanting to be part of His family.
“Following one in the center,…”
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Also see, Isaiah 14:14 & Ezekiel 28:2
Revelations 2:4
'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
I’m not around “e-sword” at the moment, but I’ve been thinking this morning about in the gospels where Christ says that the religious leaders’ true desire is to wear long robes and have special greetings in the marketplace…
Man desires to be in the center because He loves himself…
God desires for us to place Him in the center, by loving others (especially those in need) because He loves US!
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
“Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice,…”
Those who eat…
Swine’s flesh = things that are unclean / forbidden
Leviticus 11:7
and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you.
Detestable things = things that do not honor God
Such as…
Isaiah 66:3
But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations;
Mice = those who are helpless… ?
Led astray by the false teachings of “man-made religion”
Matt 15
Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
"Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
"For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"
“Will come to an end altogether," declares the LORD.”
So that God may become “ALL in ALL,” Amen.
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Here's a letter I sent to Ray and his reply.
Hi brother Smith,
In regards to "why they eat mice."
I'm thinking that the key is in this verse maybe?
Isa 66:3 KJVR
(3) He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their so ul delighteth in their abominations.
They eat mice because their soul delights in their own ways and abominations.
The Philistines worshipped golden mice.
1Sa 6:4 KJVR
(4) Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.
Jesus said that His flesh and blood needed to be eaten.
Joh 6:53 KJVR
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Since the people in Isa 66:17 were eating mice rather than eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man, then they were practicing their own man made doctrins and religion. The babylon harlot system.
Please let me know if I'm on the right track.
Blessings to you,
Andy
Dear Andy;:
Very good. You are closer than anyone thus far. In fact you are the only one who mentioned eating the body of Christ. Obviously the eating of mice is a symbol of something spiritual, not literally eating mice. Swine and mice are two categories of "unclean meats" under the law of Moses. So if we are not to each unclean meats such as swine and mice (not mice specifically, but mice is an example of a vast categor of of little fury creations not to be eaten), are we to eat clean food--beef, turkey, etc? No, if the "mice" is symbolic of what not to each, then what we ARE to eat must also be symbolic. And contrary to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, Jesus meant eating His body as a symbol for something spiritual as well.
But there is more: we have the garden? and its connection with "the worm that dies not and unquenched fire?" Also, WHEN does this occur? Before the resurrection to judgment? After the resurrection to Judgment? Both before AND after? Etc. There needs to bee a connection between Judgment in Matt. 5:22, and Gehenna fire, and this garden which represents something that only one other commented on.
Does the lake of fire begin when Christ begins His reign on this earth? Are the "Gehenna of fire," and the "lake of fire" the same? Are they in use at the same time? Will then, those who say "Raca" to their brothers, in Christ's Kingdom, be cast into the lake of fire, BEORE the resurrection of the dead unbelievers to the Great White Throne of Judgment? Etc., etc., etc. I will cover it in Part D. There is a lot of things involved in these few verses.
God be with you,
Ray
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This is way over my head but sounds like those that set themselves apart are the nation of judah and the other group are the gentile nations and God is going to punish them both together.Now thats what I get out of the literal word,that judah had become as bad and the gentile nations when it came to obeying Him,I could aply to the church that God sees the people that beleave in freewil,those that sanctify themselves,like he does those in the world that are unclean.when I read that it seem to me that there are two groups,those that sanctify themselves and those that eat unclean foods,
I do not think that this so way over your head Jerry....! :D It got me thinking that the nation of Judah did set themselves apart, above and higher than the gentile nations they were to share their knowledge of God with and did not. Instead they became separate, arrogant, self sanctified, and they also began to compromise and introduced the pagan teachings and practises. They, Gods " chosen people" had became full blown pagans and were so when Jesus Christ came . Much like, I think it will be throughout Christianity when He returns....
I enjoy your introduction to the free will idol of the heart. The one group teaches free will. You have to choose Christ nonsense like say this two second prayer and be saved trashy heresy. The other group who bow to the free will of their pagan mindless, speachless lifeless Gods....Buddha, Krishna and oh do not forget the trek to Mecca to parade around a black box....etc....
Ray mentioned two kinds of food, mice and swine....I do not know what these represent. All I know is that my anticipation to see and know the truth is heightening!.... :D I know I do not know. I know only that I want to! ;D I enjoy thinking about and searching for the truth. :D
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Here's a letter I sent to Ray and his reply.
Hi brother Smith,
In regards to "why they eat mice."
I'm thinking that the key is in this verse maybe?
Isa 66:3 KJVR
(3) He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their so ul delighteth in their abominations.
They eat mice because their soul delights in their own ways and abominations.
The Philistines worshipped golden mice.
1Sa 6:4 KJVR
(4) Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.
Jesus said that His flesh and blood needed to be eaten.
Joh 6:53 KJVR
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Since the people in Isa 66:17 were eating mice rather than eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man, then they were practicing their own man made doctrins and religion. The babylon harlot system.
Please let me know if I'm on the right track.
Blessings to you,
Andy
Dear Andy;:
Very good. You are closer than anyone thus far. In fact you are the only one who mentioned eating the body of Christ. Obviously the eating of mice is a symbol of something spiritual, not literally eating mice. Swine and mice are two categories of "unclean meats" under the law of Moses. So if we are not to each unclean meats such as swine and mice (not mice specifically, but mice is an example of a vast categor of of little fury creations not to be eaten), are we to eat clean food--beef, turkey, etc? No, if the "mice" is symbolic of what not to each, then what we ARE to eat must also be symbolic. And contrary to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, Jesus meant eating His body as a symbol for something spiritual as well.
But there is more: we have the garden? and its connection with "the worm that dies not and unquenched fire?" Also, WHEN does this occur? Before the resurrection to judgment? After the resurrection to Judgment? Both before AND after? Etc. There needs to bee a connection between Judgment in Matt. 5:22, and Gehenna fire, and this garden which represents something that only one other commented on.
Does the lake of fire begin when Christ begins His reign on this earth? Are the "Gehenna of fire," and the "lake of fire" the same? Are they in use at the same time? Will then, those who say "Raca" to their brothers, in Christ's Kingdom, be cast into the lake of fire, BEORE the resurrection of the dead unbelievers to the Great White Throne of Judgment? Etc., etc., etc. I will cover it in Part D. There is a lot of things involved in these few verses.
God be with you,
Ray
Great job Andy! You might be the one who has to bring this baby home ;D. God is humbling me right now I can say that for sure. I'm stalled on this big time. I'm only getting spark in a couple of cylinders if ya know what I mean ;).
Mark
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It just occurred to me that the word "gardens" is used in 1Co 3:9.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry [garden], ye are God's building. (1Co 3:9 KJV)
Paul is speaking of the fruits produced in that garden:
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1Co 3:6-8 KJV)
Again, considering the scriptures in Isaiah:
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isa 66:17 KJV)
The fact that the word "garden" means "fruits" sheds new light on Isa 66:17. They that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the fruits behind one tree in the midst (the tree of knowledge of good and evil), they that eat swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL be consumed together. Seems like this is talking about when you rely on your own fruits that come from the knowledge of good and evil, and not from the tree of life.
This is basically the same like I said in my previous post on this subject, but the "gardens" and "fruits" are an addition to what I said before.
Also I'm thinking that there are five different aspects that SHALL be consumed together. They are:
- they that sanctify themselves,
- they that purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
- they that eat swine's flesh,
- the abomination,
- and the mouse.
These are related. The last part of the verse "[...] shall be consumed together, saith the LORD" raises the question: WHEN will they be consumed together. The key to understanding this lies perhaps in knowing something about the abomination:
Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. (Jer 6:15 KJV)
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31 KJV)
Could "take away the daily sacrifice" indicate giving up on the law and our own works? I can't figure out how the placing of the abomination fits in to this, so excuse me, I'm just trying to ask questions!
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Mat 24:15 KJV)
At this point I can't see WHEN this will be. I believe it has an outward and inward application. It will stand in the holy place, is that the temple, within us?
It seems to me that this related to us submitting to God, recognizing that HE will save us, and not ourselves:
At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.
In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.
But to them that don't recognize this:
Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. (Isa 17:7-13 KJV)
The noise of the seas are also mentioned in Rev. 19:
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (Rev 19:1-7 KJV)
Is this all talking about when the rest of the world are brought to see that salvation is of God only?
I'm waiting to see and learn more. Does anyone else see anything regarding this?
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Some more food for thought. Isn't Ray good at giving us food ;D
Here is how he answered my effort to explain vs 17.
Dear Arcturus:
As most of the attempts at this difficult verse, you too have given some good answers. And your answers are true. However, verse 17 appears not to against all humanity, as back a few verses we have God's spiritual nation being born in one day, then back three verses in verse 14 we read of those whose "heart shall rejoice" because "the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His SERVANTS, and His indignation toward His ENEMIES." So I do not believe that God's Elect are part of those mentioned eating mice in the garden.
God be with you,
Ray
So what about "God's spiritual nation being born in ONE DAY" The scriptures say that.....To God one day is as a thousand and a thousand are as one day..... Do you think there is something in that? Could this point to the new millenia where Christ reigns a thousand years?
As eggie comments....WHEN? Is this not when .....
"the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His SERVANTS, and His indignation toward His ENEMIES." in the day of the Lord. I somehow do not think this is now. I think it is at the final judgement after the first ressurection where those in Christ will be raised up to rule with Him and the second death will be for those appointed to the White Throne. This is where your scriptures make sence for me Eggi.
FRom Ray's LOF part 14 quote
THE DAY OF THE LORD AND II THESSALONIANS II
Most of us not unlike the Thessalonians of Paul’s day are aware of a prophetic time spoken by the prophets known as "The Day of the Lord." The Thessalonians knew somewhat of this day and what it portended, as Paul spoke to them earlier about it. Now he has to tell them in this second epistle,
"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand" (II Thes. 2:2).
Never forget that Jesus Christ IS ‘The LORD,’ and so the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord both represent the Son of God.
Notice what Paul had instructed them in his first epistle concerning the coming of the Lord:
"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).
Paul tells them of his suffering:
"For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had SUFFERED before, and were SHAMEFULLY ENTREATED, as ye know… with MUCH CONTENTION
(I Thes. 2:1-2). Then Paul speaks of their suffering and the reason for sending Timothy to them:
"That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).
Paul states that:
"Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our AFFLICTION and DISTRESS by your faith" (I Thes. 3:7).
And so Paul tells them of his afflictions, and also acknowledges their afflictions. Again Paul assures these Thessalonians that:
"For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night… For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:2 & 9).
Well Timothy reported back to Paul that they were having even more tribulations and persecutions to the point that they were thinking that they must be in that period of time of "The Day of the Lord," and that they themselves were suffering wrath from God.
Once more Paul acknowledges these tribulations and suffering:
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE" (II Thes. 1:4).
But rather than wrath from God, Paul assures them that this suffering is really a token of God’s righteous judgment and that God will be punishing those who are persecuting them:
"Which [suffering] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God recompense tribulation to them that TROUBLE YOU" (II Thes. 1:5-6).
Then Paul gives them one more giant promise of rest from all of these sufferings:
"And to you [and to US as well] who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [eonian extermination] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY" (II Thes. 1:7-10).
And next we come to the Scriptures of our present study. Paul comforts them in their persecutions and tribulations. He assures them that endurance in faith will account the worthy to be in the Kingdom of God, and that they will have rest at the coming of our Lord to be glorified in His saints and admired in ALL THAT BELIEVE. This is the way of the believer leading up to the coming of the Lord and the "Day of the Lord," when all will be changed and glorified. But Paul tells them that that day is not here yet.
Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!
Unless this experience happened to them in their lifetime, whenever they lived, they will not be in the First Resurrection and see the Coming of the Lord in the Day of the Lord. Something had to have happened to them—all of them. Something HAS to happen to YOU—ALL OF YOU who expect to see the Coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord and be accounted worthy to be in The Kingdom of God. Yes, we already read in II Thes. 1:10, "When He shall come to be glorified in His saints…" And He will be glorified in all His saints at that time, but not unless something has happened in all of His saints FIRST!
Until and unless the thing that I am going to mention next is an accomplished FACT in your PRESENT life, you will not see The Coming of the Lord, neither will you be in the First Resurrection of spiritual rest and glorification. I kid you not, this is deep and heavy stuff!
BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD CAN COME TO YOU
Here then is what must be accomplished in your life before you die:
"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: THAT the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU [IN YOU], and YE IN HIM, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 1:11-12)!!
How then does our Apostle Paul tell us this MUST be accomplished? What must happen? What must we do? Or rather what must Jesus do IN US? Here is the Scriptural answer:
"Now we beseech YOU, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST [The Day of the Lord] is at hand [FOR YOU...].
Let no man deceive YOU by any means: for that day shall not come [TO YOU…] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST [BY YOU…], and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition [IN YOU…TO YOU…]; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped [IN YOU…]; so that he as God sits in the temple of God [‘which temple YE ARE’ II Cor. 6:16] showing himself that HE IS [YOU ARE / I AM] a god
Remember ye not, that when I was yet with YOU, I told YOU these things?
And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he [‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL, COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."
Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.
"For the mystery [secret, hidden truth] of iniquity [lawlessness] does already work [‘is inwardly working’ The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J. B. Rotherham)]: only he who now lets will let [‘only he who restrains will do so’], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed IN [IN YOU] and TO YOU, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;
Even him [not original], whose coming [the man of sin called son of perdition IN YOU] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:1-9).
So to answer my own question....with another question :D is this process not yesterday, today and tomorrow?....The Judgemtment on the Chruch is now and the White Throne is ahead......Am I on to something here do you think?
Arcturus :)
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Your Moslem brothers don't eat pork. Your Jewish brothers don't eat pork.
I believe that pork truly is "that other white meat". Ham, bacon, yum yum. If the worst thing I ever did was to eat pork, I would be doing really, really good. The sin comes from within, not without.
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Hi Arcturus and eggi,
I'm still looking at this too.
What Ray said,
verse 17 appears not to against all humanity, as back a few verses we have God's spiritual nation being born in one day, then back three verses in verse 14 we read of those whose "heart shall rejoice" because "the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His SERVANTS, and His indignation toward His ENEMIES."
'God's spiritual nation being born in one day,' He will raise up the Saints to be with Him, His return and the Saints raised will be the same day.
1Co 15:52 It will happen suddenly, quicker than the blink of an eye. At the sound of the last trumpet the dead will be raised. We will all be changed, so that we will never die again. (CEV)
The Lord's return will also setup His kingdom on earth.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
But, before He will rule He will removed Babylon.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from Heaven, having great authority. And the earth was lighted up from his glory.
v.2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen, has fallen!
v.21(ESV) Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more;
I think 'gardens' have to do with the churches, Babylon.
Ray said,
Isaiah talked for SIXTY-SIX CHAPTERS, and climaxes with this stern warning concerning those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves, IN THE GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together says the Lord."
What religion or large group of people is so prominent that they have the climax of the Book of Isaiah attributed to them, who "...in the GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE, eating...THE MOUSE...' And where is the Second and Third Witness to this Scripture to prove its meaning?
Isa 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the trees which you lusted after; and you shall be ashamed of the gardens that you have chosen. (LITV)
Ray said,
. Obviously the eating of mice is a symbol of something spiritual, not literally eating mice. Swine and mice are two categories of "unclean meats" under the law of Moses. So if we are not to eat unclean meats such as swine and mice (not mice specifically, but mice is an example of a vast category of little fury creations not to be eaten), are we to eat clean food--beef, turkey, etc? No, if the "mice" is symbolic of what not to eat, then what we ARE to eat must also be symbolic. And contrary to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, Jesus meant eating His body as a symbol for something spiritual as well.
John 6:55 For My flesh is truly food, and My blood is truly drink.
v.56 The one partaking of My flesh and drinking of My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
In the same way that we abide in Christ by eating or consuming His body and blood,
wouldn't the people eating or consuming unclean things be the abomination ???
Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination [From H8262; filth, that is, (figuratively and specifically) an idolatrous object: - abominable (-tion).] and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. (ESV)
Isa 66:17 The LORD says, "The end is near for those who purify themselves for pagan worship, who go in procession to sacred gardens, and who eat pork and mice and other disgusting foods. (GNB)
This is what I've been thinking about all this.
Keep up the input, it helps.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
To add to your insights....
1 Cor 10 : 21 You cannot drink the Lord's cup and the demons' cup. You cannot partake of the Lord's table and the demons' table.
I see the above scripture not as a request but as an Absolute.ie. YOU CAN NOT and not Relative...Please don't. As in the Scripture below where Jesus says NO ONE CAN(Absolute) not Relative Please do not :D We have to believe, trust in and rely on this ;D
Much in line with the scripture where Jesus says Matt 6 : 24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve God and mammon, deceitful riches, money, possessions, or WHATEVER is trusted in)...like perhaps idols, mice, pigs, abominable practices?
In John 6: 47 I assure you most solemnly I tell you, he who believes in Me, who adheres to, trusts in, relies on, and has faith in Me, has, now possesses... life. 48 I am the Bread of Life, that gives life - the Living Bread. 53 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, unless you appropriate His life and the saving merit of His blood.
In verse 29... I believe this shows how we are to abide in Christ...this is just what I believe. Here is what Jesus said...This is the work, service that God asks of you; that you believe in the One Whom He has sent, that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger.
So, with this in mind, to know or to self evaluate how much we dwell in Christ, should we ask ourselves whether we believe in His faithfullness, do we cleave to Him and trust on Him or on other things like our worship, our works, our posessions and ourselves etc? I believe the work of His Spirit in us draws us away from this error into correction through our trials and tribulations!
....This is what I am seeing. ....I feel like there is a Eurika moment just around the corner!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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These are interesting verses to contemplate .
(Isa 66:15 KJVR)
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
(Isa 66:16 KJVR)
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
(Isa 66:17 KJVR)
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
(Isa 66:18 KJVR)
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Again like all of the parables of the Bible the Lord will deal with the "many" who were slain when they first believed ,and then were later healed. Unlike the true believers who remain dead and let Christ live in them.
The terms "self sanctified and self cleaned" is reminsient to Adam and Eve's attempt to cover themselves with leaves when they were in the garden. True believers are not not self sanctified and get their sanctificastion through Christ and the shedding of his blood.
This verse shows that these people followed "one in the midst". There were two trees in the garden, Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Good and Evil . True believers only follow Christ (the tree of Life).
This verse doesnt mention it but the snake (satan) was there in the garden also. The whole event in garden centered on the gormandic command "thou shall not eat" Satan's curse was to eat dust. Adam was made from dust and to dust he will return. Satan sits and waits and prowls in search of whom he can devour.
These self righteous folkes are like satan the snake and feed on (things unclean ) swine , abominations and mice ( they eat things offered to idols), like the philistine golden mice. When the ark of the covenant was stolen they finally sent it back with a box of golden tumors/hemorrhoid and golden mice as trespass offerings to pay homage to God and stop the judgement (plague and vermin) against them for thier act.
Besides the fact that mice are typical snake food in the physical, I also think it was interesting that the mouse according to the Strong concordance on E sword suggested a second sence of attacking or nibbling. To me this is also symbolic of the "many" in Babylon who can only nibble on the word and because of their very tiny stomachs. When they do "eat" they can own shred and attack it with tiny arguments (teeth).
They are unlike believers who will eat the flesh of Christ, they feed on the meat of the Word. When they confront evil they can then like Christ they can say "It is written".
The last verse of this 66th chapter in ISA ties it all up and again demonstrates God's grand plan.... that all men including this particular group ......will eventually be brought to God through the lake of fire and will "learn righteousness".
Beloved
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/tiere/animal-smiley-030.gif)
I am on a M&M diet: no Milk or Mieces
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Alex,
I thought I'd bring this thread to the forefront, in answer to your question in another thread. Ray's Hell Part D covers this also. Can't wait for the next installment.
Lisa
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Hey, Lisa, glad you brought that back on. It is a good one.
I can't wait either for the next installment!
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Diet a good question when I had breast cancer I drank raw juices mostly vegetable carrot etc... then did alot of cleansing. I found that the closer I stayed to raw and in the natural state of the food the healthier it was for my body . I actually looked better slept better and felt better when I changed my diet. There is alot of great books out on raw foods and juicing it is much healthier for everyone. You know Government wants religion in countries to control the population but they don't want the Truth so it is with health too if people think FDA or the medical profession is here to cure you good luck it just maintains a degree of health. I know I am stepping on toes here. I also know there are some great doctors and nurse that just don't know the truth just like there are some great church people too. Gen1:19 gives us the diet that is the healthiest for our body. It took me 10 months to dissolve the cancer in my breast nor surgery no radiation. I changed my diet I cleanses my body starting with colon and next the liver, kidney, skin. I have been cancer free for 7 years. When I started the Lord spoke to my heart the road block would be my desires, what I had become accustom too. This was truth but when I fed my body nourishment I didn't have cravings haunting me and it was more of a mind thing. I would love to hear if anyone else had this experience of sorts. Peggy
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OMG Peggy. What a testimony. I am so glad you are well now. Praise God. ( I will check out Gen 1:19!)
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AWESOME PEGGY!! I wonder if we could start a thread about diet on the off topic board...I'd love to pick your brain!!
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AWESOME PEGGY!! I wonder if we could start a thread about diet on the off topic board...I'd love to pick your brain!!
That sounds like a great idea!!!
And maybe throw in a few recipes? ;D
Iris
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I think that this is about people who are not sanctified by the spirit and grace of God. They try to sanctify themselves and pretend to be holy showing outward purity, while inside they just don't get it.
They try to purify themselves with holy water and rituals in their churches, but their worship is idolatry to God. They think that Christ their mediator is in their midst and part of their false worship, but their salvation is false.
These people are pretenders and they do things (eat) forbidden. They are not the Lord's people. They are an abomination and a lie. Their works and thoughts are in vain.
In spite of them, Christ's gospel will be published in all places and all will see the glory of the Lord.
The Lord says I will draw out my people- my chosen ones and make them priests.
Those that rebelled against the Lord are those who remained in the pretend churches. And their spiritual remains are there for all to see. Amen
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newoldstock yes my post was silly I have something else on my mind which I need to do and it just came out . thanks Gina , sascxell and iria for your support. This means alot to me as I struggle on.
After reading and studing better these comments the value of this forum it really wonderfully feeding. I have something I would like to ask? I hope its alright I have been thinking about this for several years. This garden is it in us? Our carnal fleshly being is it Satan? Are we consuming the swine nature of carnality, the worm that never dies the fleshly desires that wants more and more and never is satisfried. Is that why we have to take on the the body and blood of Christ. Is all of this US.
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look at mathew 16: 22-23 amplified
Then peter took Hime aside to speak to Him privately and began to reprove and charge Him sharply, saying God forbid, Lord! This must never happen to You!
But Jesus turned away from Peter and said to him, Get behind me Satan! You are in My way {an offense and a hindrance and a snare to Me}; for you are minding what partakes not of the mature and quality of GOd, but of men.
If you read on in 24-28 it says more clearly about casting down this self and takening on the life of Christ . It seems clear to me who is Satan the fleshy carnal man the first Adam and Jesus is the Second Adam the resurrected life. Opinons greatly needed!!! Peggy
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Good question Peggy, and my off-the-cuff, good-as-it-gets-guess answer is... it probably is.
In this regard, I sure do LONG for Ray's upcoming paper on the oneness of it all... how it all IS ONE... [am not quite exact on how he has described it.] I think we all will be blown out of our chairs again, only this time by it's simplicity.
Thanks especially to Beloved and ALL for lots of detail work and head work.
With Luv, Janice
P.S. Peggy and others, I'm a former health professional that has come to don "gauze-covered" glasses.... not only spiritually to peer through the threads to see God's spiritual truths... but the rest of the world with it's operations' systems as well. Does anyone out there really think the ENTIRE medical industry and ALL it's tendrils does not thrive on m.o.n.e.y. and that they really want you completely healed and not coming back for more (doctor time, procedures, etc.)?? Hint: They've built as many physical buildings for their deception as has the Great Whore built church buildings. This, the political systems, and other worldly systems are to me all part of the great deception going on that will be all straightened out by Christ at His return along with the manifest sons and daughters of God. I'm not paranoid, I just see through the gauze. ;) :) ;D
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Diet a good question when I had breast cancer I drank raw juices mostly vegetable carrot etc... then did alot of cleansing. I found that the closer I stayed to raw and in the natural state of the food the healthier it was for my body . I actually looked better slept better and felt better when I changed my diet. There is alot of great books out on raw foods and juicing it is much healthier for everyone...
...This was truth but when I fed my body nourishment I didn't have cravings haunting me and it was more of a mind thing. I would love to hear if anyone else had this experience of sorts. Peggy
Peggy...
Check out the following website...
http://www.bernarrmacfadden.com
Macfadden was one of the first to spread the benefits of a natural diet and exercise.
Praise our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus.
Fond regards and thanks for your posts...
Pilgrim
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Hey Peggy...
You can go to Ray's e-mails, and type in satan and, he has answered this question a few times. here is one of them...Ron
k...i believe mostly what you say...is it possible...
« on: March 18, 2006, 07:43:44 PM »
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that rather than there being a seperate creature (called Satan...who was supposed to be a perfect angel, then fell) who did evil...that 'satan' is just the name for fallen man and his carnal, evil inclined nature? I find it hard to believe, as well as a discredit to God that He could make anything, and then up and do what is was not designed to do (as in an angel). I believe that Adam was designed TO fall, and that his natural carnal nature itself talked him into sinning while in the garden. I believe it is our carnal nature refered to as satan...it is enmity against God, and we (humans) need no outside influence to sin.
Dear Timothy:
You believe what you believe because you do not believe the Scriptures.
Was Jesus really tempted by His "fallen carnal mind--His evil nature?" Was Jesus referring to"His own carnal nature" that Jesus said, "Get thee behind Me, Satan?" Was Jesus' "carnal evil nature," "enmity against God?" Did Jesus really HATE HIS OWN FATHER? It's an "idol of your heart," Timothy, give up.
Ray
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Hi Peggy,
As Ron said Ray has address so much in his emails, but there is some difficulty is finding what you are looking for.
Here is the link to a categorized list of Ray's emails, it should help you find topics of interest. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html
This is where the 'find' function comes in handy, because this is a long list. Hold down the 'Ctrl' key and hit the 'F' key, now you can type in a word and it will find it for you on the page.
Here is another email about Satan being the carnal mind.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.0.html -----
Dear Azaleen:
I am familiar with the "Santan is your carnal mind" theory. Just two Scriptures might help you understand this cannot be Scripturally true:
[1] Rev. 20:1-3--Is God really going to "bind the carnal mind of all mankind" for a thousand years, and then give it back to them once again? If no one has a carnal mind (sinful nature) how could they become sinful once again, and only for a short season?
[2] I Cor. 5:5--How can our flesh (sinful nature) destroy our flesh (sinful nature)? This is in contradiction to our Lord's statments concerning "Satan casting out Satan" (Matt. 12:26).
ALL THE SCRIPTURES must agree.
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi All,
I am a newbie...and I must say that this thread is a tremendous jump from where I am to what is
being discussed on this site...! I am so humbled and brought to tears by what I am reading and how God's spirit is working through all of you. I have never in all of my many years heard, read or even dreamed that the bible is so awesome and inspiring and so full of life. I am not able to express what I am experiencing now, other than I know I feel like packing up right now (I am at work) and going straight home to study, especially now that I have a glimpse of where I can go...with God's spirit to guide me.
Many, many thanks to all of you for staying the course, and if I ever had any doubts about "why" I am
here, I don't now. I realize I may not be able to join in much, but I hope that all of you who have
been around awhile, and all you who have been blessed with such a wondrous gift truly understand just how much it means to a "newbie" like me.
I have so much to learn, so much to obsorb and so little to give back to you..but know that I am here
in the background listening, learning and growing even if you cannot see me.
Someday maybe God will increase my knowledge in such a way I can contribute more than I do, but
I will be patient...or rather, God willing I will be pateint.
I understand now why all of you say "Peace, Love, and Grace...!! I truly feel it towards you all.
Sue Ann
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Thanks for tips Kat... aak! I had misread Peggy's question about Satan... (so much to read!) and thanks for the Ctrl/F "find" function as well. Many thanks!! :)
Sue Ann, I too love to learn and feel humbled by many on this forum who graciously share what has been given to them!
Janice
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thank you rj and kat I will sure look into this and learn.I really do appreciate your guys ;D I have alot of studing and growing to do love peggy
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pilgrim thanks for the testimony it helps to encourage me to stay forcus on eating healthy. Peggy