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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Kat on March 26, 2007, 12:20:57 PM
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I got this information from a website and thought it would be of interest to see how the apostles met their physical deaths.
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The apostles were continually threatened and pressured to deny their Lord during their ministry; especially as they faced torture and martyrdom. However, none of these men who spent time with Jesus chose to save their lives by denying their faith in Him.
All they had to do to escape martyrdom was to admit they had concocted a lie and simply deny their faith and claims about Jesus as God. It defies both common sense and the evidence of history that anyone, let alone a group of twelve men, would persist in proclaiming a lie when they could walk away by admitting that it was a fraud.
History reveals that not one of these men, who knew Jesus personally, ever denied their testimony about Him despite the threat and reality of imminent death. This proves to any fair-minded observer that these men possessed an absolute unshakable personal knowledge about the truth of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Each of the apostles were called upon to pay the ultimate price to prove their faith in Jesus, affirming with their life's blood that Jesus was the true Messiah, the Son of God, and the only hope of salvation for a sinful humanity.
Most of our information about the deaths of the apostles is derived from early church traditions. While tradition is unreliable as to small details, it very seldom contains outright inventions. Eusebius, the most important of the early church historians wrote his history of the early church in A.D. 325. He wrote, "The apostles and disciples of the Savior scattered over the whole world, preached the Gospel everywhere." The Church historian Schumacher researched the lives of the apostles and recounted the history of their martyrdoms.
Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.
Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.
James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.
James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.
Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.
Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.
The details of the martyrdoms of the disciples and apostles are found in traditional early church sources. These traditions were recounted in the writings of the church fathers and the first official church history written by the historian Eusebius in A.D. 325. Although we can not at this time verify every detail historically, the universal belief of the early Christian writers was that each of the apostles had faced martyrdom faithfully without denying their faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Reference: Jeffrey, Grant R., "The Signature of God", Frontier Research Publications, Inc. (1996), p.254-257
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
That was really interesting. I've wondered about that but have never before read or heard how the apostles met their death.
Being boiled in a basin of boiling oil sounds awful. AND HE SURVIVES IT!!!
Thanks for sharing this about the apostles.
Iris
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Not only the lives, but the deaths of those who walked with Jesus are a great testimony to His message.
I must, however, take exception to one of the entries...
John the apostle and who is credited with writing the Fourth Gospel did not write the Book of Revelation. At least, that is the conclusion of about a kajillion scholars and experts. Occasionally, as appears to be the case here, the two Johns are confused. Here is a possible explanation:
John, Son of Zebedee (Jesus' beloved apostle), is credited with a widely-circulated book called the Apocryphon of John. In this book, the resurrected Jesus appears to the apostle and reveals secrets about the universe including the origin of the evil creator, Ialdabaoth (but that is another thread entirely!). This is an apocryphal text as opposed to an apocalyptic text.
John the Divine is the name given to the writer of the Apocalypse, known as the Book of Revelation. At first, when the Bible was being assembled, it was thought that the two Johns were one and the same. Only later was there agreement that the two Johns were separate and the title "the Divine" added.
I do not wish to diminish the lives and deaths any followers of Jesus, but thought I'd try and clarify an oft-confused identity.
Peace
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Kat -
That was very interesting. I was never aware of how all of the desciples met their fate.
To know how God allows or pre-ordains His own chosen beloved children to suffer I just can't seem to make sense of and accept yet.
I myself am a father. I have children whom I love dearly. I would NEVER ordain them to harm or intense suffering. I would do all in my power to spare them. Because I love them. I guess I just don't understand God's love. I don't even understand why He has opened up these truths to me thus far. For instead of these things leading me to love Him more, its leading me to be afraid of Him. Certainly this cannot be what He wants, right? For then there's no security in God. You never know when He's gonna pull the rug out from under you for whatever "chastening" He determines is needful. Very scary. And to be scared of God is no better than the rest of Christendom with their "fire escape" religion of fearing the fires of hell so I better come to Christ. There's got to be a balance here somewhere. I just haven't been enlightened yet.
Peace,
Jay
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Hi Jay,
I think it is a question of trusting God. We all have to suffer in this life. But if we are judged now, we will not be judged with the rest of the world in the Lake of Fire.
1Peter 4:16 But if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God because of this.
v. 17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God. And if it first begins from us, what will be the end of those disobeying the gospel of God?
v. 18 And if the righteous one is scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
v. 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing, as to a faithful Creator.
The life of a believer can not expected to be easy with no trials, but I would much rather be one of those under God chastisement rather His wrath
Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
v. 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
v. 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Pax.
What is the reasonable argument that the apostle John did not write Revelation? Yes, I am aware that some debate this... but a "kajillion scholars and experts"?
I have found no reason to doubt that the apostle John wrote Revelation.
Bobby
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Thanks Kat for the post.
This post should serve as reply to people who question God's love for humanity, partucilarly to those who ask why do God allows evil. The torture and death the apostles and disciples suffered in the hand of those men is a Great evil.
Definitely evil serves a grand purpose in our salvation.
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Hello Kat
You observed : John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
John was also the only one who went to the foot of the cross. He did not run away!....
Thank you for the study.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Amazing to see them all grouped togethr that way. I would like to say that I could be as steadfast as they were but I don't know.
In regard to wearing a cross as jewelry I know some just consider a fashion statement but it means a little different to me. I have 2 crosses. One is on a little tiny chain with a cross, a heart and a single pearl on it. It was given me when I was 13 and beginning the next nightmare of abuse. The cross was to remind me that Jesus loves me and is always there with me, the heart was to remind me that I was loved so much and the pearl to remind me that God can make a thing of beauty out of hardship. Ya'll know how a grain of sand gets into an oyster and it hurts but the pearl is formed.
The other cross I have is from my Michael. He gave it to me on our first Christmas. I wouldn't marry him without telling him that I had been sexually abused because I did not think that was fair to him to have a damaged wife. The little cross is in the middle of a circle and he wanted it to remind me whenever I looked at it that he loved me so much and I wasn't damaged in his eyes.The cross was to remind me of God's love and the circle around it to remind me that God's love and Michael's love is forever. So because of all that I have a little different view of wearing a cross. Jennie
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Bobby,
From the looks of the entries in this thread, this may be out of place. I will, therefore be brief...
As Early as the 3rd century, the shared authorship of the Fourth Gospel and the Book of Revelation has been seriously doubted. Actually, it is not as much who wrote these pieces as much as it is agreed that the same person did not write these books.
Perhaps it is more correct to say that John the son of Zebedee could have been the author of Revelation because it is most likely that he did not pen the Gospel which traditionally bears his name.
The Book of Revelation bears no resemblance to the Fourth Gospel or the Epistles of John. The grammar is different, word usage and other comparisions of literary criticism makes the likelihood of shared authorship mighty slim.
So, in short, we have the Fourth Gospel which does not claim to be written by a person named John, is called The Gospel of John while the Book of Revelation does claim to be written by someone named John. Biblical irony.
But while the writer of Revelation occasionally mentions "the apostles" he never indicates that he is one of them. Now look at other Epistles and notice how the authors introduce themselves. Curious.
Even moreso in Chapter 4 of Revelation, the prophet sees 24 elders around the throne of God. Most folks (perhaps you are not among them) have long considered these people to be the Jewish Patriarchs and the twelve apostles -- one of whom would have been John, son of Zebedee. The author make no mention or even hints that he is seeing himself at the throne of Almighty God!
I don't know about you, but if I had a vision/visit like the writer of Revelation and was shown that I would be among the honorees at the foot of God, I would probably mention that tidbit. I'd probably have a T-shirt made up for the occasion!
Most (half a kajillion??) references put most of the parts of Revelation as written in the 60s CE. This puts Nero as the leader of Rome (depending on who one counts as the first ruler). There are those that claim that the book was not completed until about 95 CE because (this will not go over well with some here) Jews in Rome used the code word "Babylon" to refer to Rome as the chief political enemy of God after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE!
This got much lengthier than I had intended and I apologize -- the main question is, what difference does it make if it is shared authorship or not?
Early Christianity happens to be an interest of mine and an area where I posess some very, very modest expertise. I thought it would be an interesting aside to the initial post.
I would certainly recommend David Aune's The New Testament in Its Literary Environment or What Are They Saying About the Book of Revelation by Pilch.
I hope I did not cause anyone to stumble.
Peace
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Hi Pax,
I had heard the same thing about the authorship of Revelation.
It seems that most churches still teach that it was the apostle John that
wrote both the book of John and Revelation though.
Thanks for the referencees.
Tim
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Actually, I had heard that also and had no trouble w/ it. Seems like someone here gave us a link to it. Quite lengthy but detailed.
I had been researching early church history and early church fathers on various websites before I was dragged over to Rays. ;)
I was very interested but haven't studied as much as of late. But I was getting very convinced that early on many things went amuck in Christendom. God was preparing me to move on out.
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With no due assumed respect to the so called experts 1 Tim 6 : 20 " ..guard the treasure you were given! Guard it with your life. AVOID the talk-show religion and the practiced confusion of the so - called experts. People caught up in a lot of talk can miss the whole point of faith. guard and keep the deposit entrusted to you. Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. 1 Tim 1 : 4 Nor give importance to or occupy yourselves with legends, fables, myths and endless genealogies, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings rather than acceptance in faith of God's administration and the divine training that is in faith, in that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence.
2 Tim 3 : 16 EVERY Scripture is God breathed...........
The Apocrypha is not considered as Scripture therefore it is not God breathed, neither is it given by His inspiration and neither is it profitable for instruction....so why discuss it? (Rhetorical question.) It is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I am glad I am out of Mystery Babylon and its snares and plagues of intrigue and I do not desire to accomodate its teachings and illustrious illusions, deceptive and decieving hypocrisy and pretensions deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach.
Arcturus :)
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this is copied from Chuckt from the thread What religios in Babylon. I think this information fits here too.
Thanks Chuckt-Euty
we are told what is mystery babylon in scriptures:
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
what reigns over the kings of the earth? confusion!!
babylon= babel which literal means "confusion by mixing"
mystery means:hidden thing, secret, mystery confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding a hidden purpose or counsel
secret will 1c
so we see only few know about it and few understand to come out. come out of what? confusion by mixing.
we be not concerned of worldly things so ours is a spiritual exodus, and we understand what is mixed in the religious community "today"
physical/spiritual
grace/law
and: what was confused in the beginning??? ((language)) the original tower of babel!!!!!!!that great city still exsists today.how many christians do you know confused by reading the bible from a 21st century mindset and seeing the words and not knowing???
ray has a perfect example:
The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:
Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
The "hell" of the 21st Century:
The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."
is it not evident when we see churches resembling the world and its ways.
when we see confusion we can remember Pauls insight shared with Timothy 2 tim 1 : 7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; bot of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not ashamed of the testimony of our Lord.....
The Testimony of our Lord is the book of Revelations!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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The original post once again causes me to doubt where WE are. You who are reading this, ME, Ray and all the others who have understood Ray's teachings enough to actually become a member of this board. For a LONG time I have had a real problem with people thinking they are suffering some kind of persecution when something happens to them that happens to thousands and thousands of people every day.
People who believe Jesus was the Messiah as well as people who don't even know His name SUFFER every damn day in this world. They lose children to disease, accident's and brutal murder's. They suffer financially. They get fired from their job's. They get blown up in terrorist attacks. Do you believe all of them are the "elect"? Of course not.
So how can we who understand universal reconciliation, the resurrection of the dead, many called-few chosen and the lie of eternal punishment think we are any more the "elect" rather than the "many called"? I submit we cannot.
God made me fatherless at the age of 8 and my mother a widow at the age of 27 via a car crash. This is ABSOLUTELY nothing compared to what happened to the Apostles in the OP personally. They truly LIVED Galatians 2:20. Christ was brutally murdered, the people who He truly lived His life in were brutally murdered and in the case of John brutally tortured PERSONALLY and physically. None of us has suffered like this because of WHAT WE BELIEVE. Noone in power seeks to murder us because of these doctrines. What does it mean? I wish I knew!
This also begs the question of-Why isn't there a recorded history over the generations of the "elect" being brutally murdered as Christ and the Apostles were? Why? Did God change the rules for being "elect" after the first century? No Scripture I am aware of supports that.
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Hello MOlivier
As far as I know there is no one who is Elect while still alive. The Elect are those found faithful unto death. so this would fit with the fact that non are born again in this life and non are saved either until Christ returns and then only the Elect will be saved and the others will be corrected through the LOF until all are saved finally because God does not WILL that any should perish but His plan is some will perish and He will restore and save them.
The thought came to me that we are in the last hour and not in the heat of the day as are some of God's servants in the vineyard were when He first called them in the earlier part of the day. This is symbolic of our times. We are getting far easier access to the Kingdom than Paul who was sorely punished and persecuted in his day! What excuse will we have?....
Bless you for your thoughts and humble regard for our Almighty and Sovereign God that comes through your post.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi M Oliver,
I see your point, but I agree with Arcturus, we are in a different time of this age. Things at the time of the apostles were so different than now. The apostles knew Christ personally and was taught by Him and I believe this gave them the strength and courage to endure what they did. At this time we are at a different phase of the age, and so were the elect down through the generations.
We are blessed to not have to face what the apostles did, and I am thankful for that.
Pax, I see what you are saying;
The Book of Revelation bears no resemblance to the Fourth Gospel or the Epistles of John. The grammar is different, word usage and other comparisons of literary criticism makes the likelihood of shared authorship mighty slim.
But there are somethings that I would consider. The different situations of the writings of the 2 books. John may have used an amanuensis (secretary) to edit his gospel book, but would not have had one for the writing of Revelation, while on Patmos. This could have been the reason for the difference writing styles.
So, in short, we have the Fourth Gospel which does not claim to be written by a person named John, is called The Gospel of John while the Book of Revelation does claim to be written by someone named John. Biblical irony
The fact that the Revelation was to be distributed to the seven churches, now wouldn't all the churches have to know this 'John' and to regard him with great respect to take this letter with any weight. Obviously the early churches all thought that John the apostle was the author.
And another thing John was Jesus' beloved friend and perhaps the disciple most intimate with Him.
Also Jesus said to John, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matt. 16:28)." The awesome thing about this scripture is that John did see the coming of Christ, while in vision(Rev 9:17) and writing the book of Revelation.
I think all the other apostles were already martyred by 96 AD, so I think Jesus would have revealed this to one of the twelve, therefore John's life was preserved for this purpose perhaps.
It is not an issue for me either Arcturus :)
But just thought I would comment.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat
I really enjoy and value this Scripture from Col 3 : 15 And let the peace, soul harmony which comes from Christ rule, act as umpire continually in your hearts, deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state to which as members of Christs's one body you were also called to live. And be thankful, appreciative, giving praise to God always. 16 Let the word spoken by Christ the Messiah have its home in your hearts and minds and dwell in you in all its richness as you teach and admonish and train one another in all insight and intelligence and wisdom in spiritual things..........
to add to what you brought forward : Also Jesus said to John, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matt. 16:28)."
May be this would fit as a second witness where Jesus said to Peter in John ;D 21 : 22 Jesus said to him (Peter) If I want him to stay, survive, live until I come, what is that to you? What concern is it of yours? YOU follow ME!
Peace to you Sister
Arcturus :)
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Sometimes we don't want to be involved with "issues" but we also shouldn't pitter-patter around the truth... this is Bible-Truths after all... correct? Are we not here to help us in our knowledge of the truth?
It is best to "nip it in the bud" as I have seen on Craig's signature... if not, the next thing you know you have a grassy knoll... or subtle half-truths that creep in and cause us to stray. A further thought may be to question the authorship of all the books of the Bible... or wonder if they were inspired after all... I think not.
In addition to what Kat mentioned there were many, many writers that lived in the same century as John the apostle and referred to him directly as the author of the Apocalypse. The style itself in the writing is not so different from the gospel book... as is the subject matter, the method it was delivered, etc... full of visions, types, and symbolisms...
There is of course the obvious that John mentions Patmos... why would we theorize there being another such respected "John" on Patmos?
With a little study you find this many, many year old debate is not based on historical facts at all... this has it roots with Martin Luther and doctrinal disagreements in the church.
I would hope that guests visiting our forum don't click away thinking we are now disputing that John the Apostle authored Revelation.
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scooby-doo could have written the translated book of Revelation for all i care.
Although whom God choosed to inspire to write Revelation in Hebrew and Greek, has indeed served it's purpose, according to God's plan.
The PURPOSE of REVELATION to REVEAL Jesus the Christ, too the reader, is the focal point of book. Has had a great succes in revealing Jesus too like minded individuals.
God bless
Rodger
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"As the first century AD drew to a close, the churches of Asia Minor were endangered by two foes, persecution and heresy, with heresy being by far the greater danger. The ascended Christ directed John, the aging apostle, to address this urgent situation Rev 1 : 17-19). these churches needed a renewed vision of God and a revelation of His glorious plans for their future.
It is fitting that Revelation comes last in the biblical canon, for it is the climax of all that has gone before as it foretells the ultimate fulfillment of God's efforts to redeem lost humanity.
John, beloved disciple, apostle, and elder ( Rev 1: 1,4,9: 22:8). The reign of church fathers ALL CONFIRM John's authorship. The similarities of vocabulary and literary style with John's other writings confirm it as well." Ref : Wilmington's Bible Handbook
" Revelation is the only bock of prophecy in the New Testament. It is the only book in the divine library that especially promises a blessing to those who read and hear. "Blessed" is a strong word. "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy" is what the book of Revelation says of itself (Rev 1 : 3) but after reading the first chapters about the churches, and the last chapters describing heaven, not many of us read much in this book.
REVELATION PRESENTS A GLORIOUS, REIGNING CHRIST. The Gospels present Him as a Saviour, One who came to take the curse of sin, but in this last book we see no humiliation. In one way Revelation is the most remarkable book in the whole sacred canon. Revelation tells us about the reign of Christ on this earth that Satan wants to control. It tells of Christ's complete and eternal victory over Satan. It describes Satan's defeat and punishment, first for a thousand years, then eternally. It tells more about Satan's final doom than any other book. No wonder Satan doesn't want people to read it!....
Few people who have any imagination have not sat down and thought, I wonder how it would feel to be a king. But Christ says when He comes He will make us reign as kings Rev 1 : 6 )
Them "those who pierced Him" shall see Him Rev 1 : 7. Although that refers especially to the Jewish people, who at Christ's coming will turn to Him as a united people and be saved (Romans 11: 25-26), at the same time it means many others who have pierced Christ will see Him. Have YOU pierced Him?"
Ref : What the Bible is all about by Dr. Henrietta C. Mears
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I must agree with you that believe the Apostle John wrote both books. But like Arcturus said, these things can lead to vain babbling and endless genealogies which benefit no one. All scripture is God breathed, so regardless of who He breathed it through, it is still inspired by God.
With regard to the four beasts, and four and twenty elders being the twelve apostles and the twelve patriarchs, I don't think is a good argument that John was just observing and therefore was not the Apostle himself. Remember that this is a book of symbols and as a result we need to look at it with spiritual eyes rather than just a physical story. Listen to what the scriptures actually say about these four beasts and four and twenty elders....
"8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 5:8-10.
All the Apostles and the patriarchs were Jews, but this clearly shows that these four beasts and four and twenty elders were redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. These are the very elect of Christ not just four physical beasts or four and twenty physical people. Only the elect are kings and priests, and only the elect will reign on earth.
M_Oliver, you're right, everyone suffers in this life, and all are not God's elect. But I don't think anyone here is claiming to be there as of yet. Kat's original post has nothing to do with claiming to be God's elect. She was merely giving us a little information on how the Apostles died. Is there something that I missed in your post that causes you to doubt where WE are? I'm only asking because you seem to be upset with us or some of us. If I'm wrong, I apologize and please forgive me.
Your brother in Christ,
Dwight
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Thank you Kat for those facts about the apostle's deaths, and thank you Arcturus for your sobering comments. Endless nitpicking and loose speculation about the Word of God profits us nothing. God is able and has preserved His Scriptures for us, just as He wanted them to be, regardless of who wrote what book of His wonderful Word.
Peace of God to you all. May we all continue to grow in grace and knowledge.
Andrevan.
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M_Oliver, you're right, everyone suffers in this life, and all are not God's elect. But I don't think anyone here is claiming to be there as of yet. Kat's original post has nothing to do with claiming to be God's elect. She was merely giving us a little information on how the Apostles died. Is there something that I missed in your post that causes you to doubt where WE are? I'm only asking because you seem to be upset with us or some of us. If I'm wrong, I apologize and please forgive me.
Your brother in Christ,
Dwight
NO. Not upset with anyone. Another case of communicating via words instead of voice :). When I read Kats post it reminded me of something that I have thought over so many times before. That is that these true followers suffered SO MUCH for their faith that it makes our trials look like chump change. Why is that? I know I can't speak for everyone so I don't mean to question anyone's severity of trials but I have never seen any documentation of anyone since them {Kats post} that has had to suffer like that personally. Boiled in oil? BEATEN to death? Believe me, I am not asking for that to happen to any of us but why isn't there some kind of trail of this kind of treatment against those who God is forming into the elect through the generations since them?
I hope Arcturus was right {Matthew 20}.
Mark
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Mark,
You asked "why isn't there some kind of trail of this kind of treatment?". You are talking about the physical abuse they endured. In this age, the offender would be put in jail. So, I think the enemy is much more sly now. ie.....more mental abuse. Or haven't you noticed just how many people are on some kind of Dr. prescribed medication for everything from depression to bi-polar, to name a few. Not to mention also, that medical records are highly confidential.
Peace to you, Lisa
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Hi Mark,
I see what you're saying now. I was worried that one of us had offended you, but I know what you mean about the Apostles sufferings compared to ours. Maybe that's why Paul said in "1Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men."
There probably were other sufferings after the first century, but so much of history has been lost due to wars, fires and such that we have no records. And I certainly don't know what the future holds, but Paul did say, "2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Just what kind...I don't know.
Much love brother,
Dwight
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Hello everyone
Our suffering is not in the literal boiling in oil or being thrown down a mud sistern but this does happen in our mental anxieties and the toll it takes on us is less explicit that in the days of Paul I believe.
Look at the rejection we have suffered. The ridicule and hostility for our understanding of the gospel of the good news. We are mentally flogged and beaten. Some of us cry. I did! Some of us feel the sting of rejection and some of us carry the scars of abuse. This abuse comes in the forms of the spiritual warefare against us in sexual mental and physical abuse. Every disease is an abuse against the diesease free body we will receive when Jesus returns. Every snarling hateful rejection we will rule with a rod of iron with our Lord in His Kingdom until every knee will bow. Today the judgement is on us and this is painful and it calls us to admonish, urge and encourage one another every day.
We face violence, crime and lawlessness at levels that are unprecedented. We are surrounded by blindness, profanity and harlotry.We have prison bars around us because the light of Christ is not welcome in the world. We suffer pine for and long for the return of Christ and this is not made visible by our righteousness and stand for Christ, but it is made visible to us through HIM opening our minds to understand HIS word and HIS call to us to become separate from those that do "not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing..." Rom 1 : 28
Like Lisa says, our torment is not literally physical it is spiritually mental and not the less painful for those who suffer the pain and anxiety of loss through assult, pain through physical disease and in short, the battle against wickedness in high spiritual places.
For this our hope in heart and mind is to set our eyes on HIM our GOD of the old and new as HE brings us forward to meet HIM out of all our suffering to enter into HIS Kingdom.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus,
You are so right...the sufferings are within, they are spiritual and there is spiritual warfare at all times. The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you. As He is, so are we in this world. Knowing that He is, was and will be, so are we. It's not what happened in the past or what will happen in the future...it's now..in us. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time....it's all now...Jesus is now...the kingdom is now...and we are now. Repent,for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Oh sister, that God will open our eyes and open our ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches now. Thank you for sharing your insightful post.
Your brother,
Dwight
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Arcturus,
That was so well said. Thank you my beautiful sister!
God be with us,
Lisa
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Hello Dwight and Lisa
Thank you for your sweet thoughts of encouragement and love. They are mutual!
Dwight I believe you know what the Spirit is saying to the Churches now. :D
HEAR Oh Israel, the Lord your God is ONE! Mark 12 : 29
As you have said, the doctrines of Hell, Free will and eternity bind together to shut us out of the Kingdom. Do they know how they do this? I doubt it! They reject seeing. They object to the truth. In objection and rejection they lock the door to the Kingdom to themselves and others.
Matt 23 : 13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders hypocrites! For you SHUT THE KINGDOM of heaven in men's faces: for YOU NEITHER ENTER YOURSELVES, NOR DO YOU ALLOW THOSE WHO ARE ABOUT TO GO IN TO DO SO.
This is what the Synagogues of Satan are doing. We are touched by this revelation through the merits alone of Christ. We have this information and truth through the suffering of Calvary of our Lord. We are called.
Once we hear, then we believe then we trust and then we repent and then we come out of the past and the struggle for the future. NOW becomes our judgement everyday and NOW is where we find the rest of God and Christ that is being sought after here and there but never is to be found anywhere outside. Behold, HE is nearer than hands or feet within as you point out Dwight and as the Scriptures bear witness.
HE will come again literally to the unsuspecting world. He descended from Heaven and so too does He come again from the right hand of the Father to the world. For others he comes with the Father to supper with those who hear and open within as He knocks on the door of our hearts.
Heb 3 : 13 But instead warn, admonish, urge, and encourage one another every day, as long as it is called TODAY...
Heb 4 : 7 Again he sets a definite day, a new TODAY, and gives another opportunity of securing that rest saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, TODAY, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts....
2 Cor 6 : 2 For He says, In the time of favour, of an assured welcome, I have listened to and heeded your call, and I have helped you on the day of deliverance, the day of salvation. Behold, NOW is truly the time for a gracious welcome and acceptance of you from God, behold, NOW is the day of salvation....
Isaiah 62: 2 your rightness and justice – not your own, but HIS ascribed to you....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello MOliver
As far as I know there is no one who is Elect while still alive. The Elect are those found faithful unto death.
It sure seems that Paul refers to the colossians as though they already are...
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (Colossians 3:12 KJVR)
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Hello MOliver
Yes it does seem that way! :D
If you look at Ephesians 1 : 3 May blessing be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Who has blessed us in Christ with EVERY SPIRITUAL blessing in the heavenly realm 5, For He foreordained us to be adopted as His own ....7In Him we have redemption deliverance and salvation through His blood...11 In Him we also were made God's heritage and we obtained an inheritance...12...have been destined and APPOINTED to live for the praise of His glory....
It can also seem, or appear that the Ephesians were also elect :D But I do not think that while they lived that they were elect. Even Paul did not consider himself elect but he ran his race to achieve and acquire the reward of election.
When Paul wrote to the Ephesians and Colosians he encouraged them and I think Paul saw their end as God also sees our end from the beginning. Our end too will be that we are perfected in Christ and will bear His image. In the end God will be all in All. That end had not yet come when Paul was writing about it in his letters and not until Christ returns and the resurrection begins will election begin. Then the elect will be raised elect and the lost will be raised to the White Throne Judgement to be purified, corrected and reestablished in reconciliation to God.
As for now, and then in the past and during the times behind us, non have been resurrected yet! As I understand it Christ has not yet begun His Glorious Reign on earth. Therefore non are born again, non are yet saved and non are yet elect. Many are called but few will be chosen. Some, not all are stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1 : 14 That Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance, the first fruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage in ANTICIPATION of it s full redemption and our acquiring COMPLETE POSSESSION OF IT - to the praise of His glory.
Our election is future when Christ returns. The future elect are in judgement now and are living the life of Christ as His testimony to the world. It is all about Him not us.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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It also seems to me that Jesus does indeed reign on the earth also;
Mathew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Eph 1 20-21 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Col 1 16-19 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisiable, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist: And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Revelation 1 5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithfull witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood;
He is in my eyes, THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
Peace and Mercy, Lisa
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Thanks Arcturus, I understand what you mean. I also want to thank you for leading me to Matthew 20 regarding my earlier posts on why we are not facing trials as physically severe as the Apostles. That "workers in the vineyard" parable explains so much. I found another neat little treasure later in the chapter that I never caught before. Praise God for the Rotherham translation and e-sword. Verse 28:
Just as, the Son of Man, came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom instead of many. (Matthew 20:28 Rotherham)
Most translations render this "for" many. Reading it as "instead" of many makes complete sense. By saying "instead" of many it leaves open that a few would also have to lay down their lives for Him. To me it is a spiritual match with the parable...especially verse 28...
These last, one hour, wrought, and thou hast made them, equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day, and the scorching heat. (Matthew 20:12 Rotherham)
Mark
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This has been a very interesting and edifying thread, I just want to add another thought here. Even though we all hope to be one body and one spiritual nation in our Lord He does deal with each and every one of us on a One on one basis. It is all His call, like Jesus said to Peter in regard to the apostle John I believe it is not for us to compare trials and tribulations with each other or to put the apostles on a pedestal because of how the Lord used them. I do not recall anything written on how any of them were brought kicking and screaming to their deaths, they had been spiritually strengthened and prepared for the day of their deaths and all appeared to see it as an honor and not a burden.
John 21
18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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That really is a FIND Mark.
Thank you for sharing! ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Joe
You noted : I do not recall anything written on how any of them were brought kicking and screaming to their deaths,
Yes. How true. Paul even chose to return to Rome after he was warned of his fate there. We are all caused to be chosen are we not.
You are so right I think to warn us all against comparisons! Thank you
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I agree Joe. Very well said. But you know as well as I do that God put that thought in me so it could get worked out and it did so beautifully :). I see it much clearer now. No offense ever intended. Thank you all for the help.
Mark
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Thanks Arcturus, I understand what you mean. I also want to thank you for leading me to Matthew 20 regarding my earlier posts on why we are not facing trials as physically severe as the Apostles. That "workers in the vineyard" parable explains so much. I found another neat little treasure later in the chapter that I never caught before. Praise God for the Rotherham translation and e-sword. Verse 28:
Just as, the Son of Man, came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom instead of many. (Matthew 20:28 Rotherham)
Most translations render this "for" many. Reading it as "instead" of many makes complete sense. By saying "instead" of many it leaves open that a few would also have to lay down their lives for Him. To me it is a spiritual match with the parable...especially verse 28...
These last, one hour, wrought, and thou hast made them, equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day, and the scorching heat. (Matthew 20:12 Rotherham)
Mark
I agree Joe. Very well said. But you know as well as I do that God put that thought in me so it could get worked out and it did so beautifully :). I see it much clearer now. No offense ever intended. Thank you all for the help.
Mark
This is such an interesting and good study, i just have to bring it up. Such a large treasure chest in here that many times it feel like i am in the field; rather than rummaging in the chest, for ever more valuable pearls.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, It was very much worth reading for me today.
george ;D.
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Yes, nice George! Thank you!! :D
Kathy ;)
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Thanks for bringing this back up. I will make a copy of it. I always wondered about our trials compared to back then. When, I look back on things. I believed in God and wanted to obey. But, did not have truth. That, was a form of a trial. To believe there was a Hell and not able to live with the thoughts of it was such torment. God brought me to a place so that I would easily give up the terrible believe that he was like a mere man and had no way to correct me. I had no peace in my life. Knowing, the truth ,when I go through trials make them easier to deal with. I known, that my Husbands family think I am lost . Its as if they are afaid to learn the truth. They won't read this. It is all of God. They are where he wants them. I am where he wants me.
But, I have to keep my mouth shut or there would be great trouble.
I use to believe that Revelations was a terrible book of most of creation going to Hell. Now, I know it is a beautiful book of great blessings.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Quote Arcturus: 'The thought came to me that we are in the last hour and not in the heat of the day as are some of God's servants in the vineyard were when He first called them in the earlier part of the day.'
Thats a really interesting thought. The last hour (getting darker) could be understood to be the suffering (loneliness etc) of living at a time of spiritual darkness unlike anything previously experienced
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
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Hello Arcturus 2007
While your posts in this tread, are very forcefully if not vehemently, vigorously, powerfully, convincingly and compellingly written, you nevertheless trip over NOT
“ Knowing this FIRST, that no prophecy of the scripture is of an PRIVATE INTERPRETAION. (Gk: is becoming it’s OWN explanation) 2 Peter 1:20
Ref: http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm
You have assumed that the laborers who are invited by the master to go and work in the latter hours of the day, were correctly assessed by the laborers who complained for having worked in the heat of the day. You take their assumption to be truth and not the Lords edification that the meaning of the Parable is the same as it is in all the Parables. Many are called and few chosen.
This error duplicated in the post submitted by M Oliver who presents the Rotherham version as saying that quote: Just as, the Son of Man, came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom instead of many. (Matthew 20:28 Rotherham)
Where is the double witness to this interpretation? Where is the Spiritual match? There isn’t one. :D
There are four stern warnings in the Scriptures with regards to adding to or taking away from the Word of God:
Excerpt from WHICH BIBLE TRANSLATION IS BEST?
1. "For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
And if any man shall take away from the WORDS of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rev. 22:18-19).
2. "You shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall you DIMINISH ought from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2).
3. "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: you shall not ADD thereto, nor DIMINISH from it" (Deut. 12:32).
4. "Every word of God is PURE: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. ADD YOU NOT unto His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar" (Prov. 30:5-6).
We know from the expounding work of Ray Smith regarding the translation Hell and Eternal that the interpretation that says many means INSTEAD, smack right in the face, going against the admonitions published above.
The work of Ray Smith, exhorts us to PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS.... Here the word translated in Mat 20:28 as INSTEAD….has NO support from the translations.
Look at this:
G4183
πολύς / πολλός
polus / polos
Total KJV Occurrences: 365
many, 210
Mat_3:7, Mat_7:13, Mat_7:22 (2), Mat_8:11, Mat_8:16, Mat_8:30, Mat_9:10, Mat_10:31, Mat_13:3, Mat_13:17, Mat_13:58, Mat_15:30, Mat_16:21, Mat_19:30, Mat_20:16, Mat_20:28, Mat_22:14, Mat_24:5 (2), Mat_24:10-12 (4), Mat_25:21, Mat_25:23, Mat_26:28, Mat_26:60, Mat_27:19, Mat_27:52-53 (2), Mat_27:55, Mar_1:34 (2), Mar_2:2, Mar_2:15 (2), Mar_3:10, Mar_4:2, Mar_4:33, Mar_5:9, Mar_5:26 (2), Mar_6:2, Mar_6:13 (2), Mar_6:20, Mar_6:31, Mar_6:33-34 (2), Mar_7:4, Mar_7:8, Mar_7:13, Mar_8:31, Mar_9:12, Mar_9:26, Mar_10:31, Mar_10:45, Mar_10:48, Mar_11:8, Mar_12:5, Mar_12:41, Mar_13:6 (2), Mar_14:24, Mar_14:56, Mar_15:3, Mar_15:41, Luk_1:1, Luk_1:14, Luk_1:16, Luk_2:34-35 (2), Luk_3:18, Luk_4:25, Luk_4:27, Luk_4:41, Luk_7:21 (2), Luk_7:47, Luk_8:3, Luk_8:30, Luk_9:22, Luk_10:24, Luk_10:41, Luk_12:7, Luk_12:19, Luk_12:47, Luk_13:24, Luk_14:16, Luk_15:13, Luk_17:25, Luk_21:8, Luk_22:65, Luk_23:8, Joh_2:12, Joh_2:23, Joh_4:39, Joh_4:41, Joh_6:60, Joh_6:66, Joh_7:31, Joh_7:40, Joh_8:26, Joh_8:30, Joh_10:20, Joh_10:32, Joh_10:41-42 (2), Joh_11:19, Joh_11:45, Joh_11:47, Joh_11:55, Joh_12:11, Joh_12:42, Joh_14:2, Joh_16:12, Joh_19:20, Joh_20:30, Joh_21:25, Act_1:3, Act_1:5, Act_2:43, Act_4:4, Act_5:12, Act_8:7 (2), Act_8:25, Act_9:13, Act_9:42, Act_10:27, Act_13:43, Act_15:32, Act_15:35, Act_16:18, Act_16:23, Act_17:12, Act_18:8, Act_20:18-19 (2), Act_24:10, Act_25:7, Act_28:9-10 (3), Rom_4:17-18 (2), Rom_5:15-16 (3), Rom_5:19 (2), Rom_8:29, Rom_12:4-5 (2), Rom_15:23, Rom_16:2, 1Co_1:26 (3), 1Co_4:15, 1Co_8:5 (2), 1Co_10:17, 1Co_10:33, 1Co_11:30, 1Co_12:12 (2), 1Co_12:14, 1Co_12:20, 1Co_16:9, 2Co_1:11 (2), 2Co_2:4, 2Co_2:17, 2Co_6:10, 2Co_8:22, 2Co_9:12, 2Co_11:18, 2Co_12:21, Gal_1:14, Gal_3:16, Gal_4:27, Phi_3:18, 1Ti_6:9-10 (2), 1Ti_6:12, 2Ti_2:2, Heb_5:10-11 (3), Heb_9:28, Heb_12:15, Jam_3:1-2 (2), 2Pe_2:2, 1Jo_2:18, 1Jo_4:1, 2Jo_1:7, 2Jo_1:12, 3Jo_1:13, Rev_1:15, Rev_8:11 (2), Rev_9:9, Rev_10:11, Rev_14:2, Rev_17:1, Rev_19:12
much, 73
Mat_6:30, Mat_13:5, Mat_26:9, Mar_1:45, Mar_4:5, Mar_5:10, Mar_5:21, Mar_5:24, Mar_6:34, Mar_12:41, Luk_7:11, Luk_7:47, Luk_8:4, Luk_9:37, Luk_10:40, Luk_12:19, Luk_12:48 (3), Luk_16:10 (2), Luk_18:39, Joh_3:23, Joh_6:10, Joh_7:12, Joh_12:9, Joh_12:12, Joh_12:24, Joh_14:30, Joh_15:5, Joh_15:8, Act_10:2, Act_14:22, Act_15:7, Act_16:16, Act_18:10, Act_18:27, Act_20:2, Act_26:24, Act_27:10, Rom_3:2, Rom_5:9-10 (2), Rom_5:15, Rom_5:17, Rom_9:22, Rom_16:6, Rom_16:12, 1Co_2:3, 1Co_12:22, 1Co_16:19, 2Co_2:4, 2Co_3:9, 2Co_3:11, 2Co_8:4 (2), 2Co_8:15, 2Co_8:22, Phi_2:12, 1Th_1:5-6 (2), 1Th_2:2, 1Ti_3:8, 2Ti_4:14, Tit_2:3, Heb_12:8-9 (2), Heb_12:25, Jam_5:16, 1Pe_1:7, Rev_5:4, Rev_8:3, Rev_19:1
great, 62
Mat_2:18, Mat_4:25, Mat_5:12, Mat_8:1, Mat_8:18, Mat_12:15, Mat_13:2, Mat_14:14, Mat_15:30, Mat_19:2, Mat_19:22, Mat_24:29-30 (2), Mat_26:47, Mar_3:7-8 (2), Mar_4:1, Mar_9:14, Mar_10:22, Mar_10:48, Mar_13:26, Mar_14:43, Luk_2:36, Luk_5:6, Luk_5:15, Luk_5:29, Luk_6:17, Luk_6:23, Luk_6:35, Luk_10:2, Luk_14:25, Luk_14:32, Luk_23:27 (2), Joh_5:3, Joh_6:2, Joh_6:5, Act_6:7, Act_11:21, Act_14:1, Act_17:4, Act_21:40, Act_22:28, Act_23:10, Act_24:2, Act_24:7, Act_25:23, Act_28:6, Act_28:29, 2Co_3:12, 2Co_7:4 (2), 2Co_8:2, 2Co_8:22, Eph_2:4, Col_4:13, 1Th_2:17, 1Ti_3:13, Phm_1:7, Heb_10:32, Rev_7:9, Rev_19:6
greatly, 4
Mar_5:23, Mar_5:38, Mar_12:27, 1Co_16:12
long, 4
Mat_25:19, Joh_5:6, Act_27:14, Act_27:21
far, 3
Mar_6:35 (2), Phi_1:23
straitly, 2
Mar_3:12, Mar_5:43
abundant, 1
1Pe_1:3
altogether, 1
Act_26:29
common, 1
Mar_12:37
oft, 1
Mat_9:14
oftentimes, 1
Luk_8:29
plenteous, 1
Mat_9:37
sore, 1
Mar_9:26
Surely God did not sternly warn against adding to or taking away from His Word, while knowing it would never happen. Of course it has happened. L. Ray Smith
Arc