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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: cheekie3 on September 22, 2017, 05:34:56 PM
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All -
I recollect that Ray has stated that the Jews in Israel are not the real Hebrew Israelites; but I do not recollect that Ray ever mentioned who the real Hebrew Israelites were.
I got the impression that Ray knew who the real Hebrew Israelites were, and are.
Does anyone know if Ray ever spoke or wrote anything about the real Hebrew Israelites of today.
For any that may be thinking, why am I asking such a question, when it is all about the 'Spiritual' and not the 'natural' - we are all still natural living beings and those of us who are not of the natural Olive Tree of Israel, have been grafted into that natural Olive Tree - and The New Testament Scriptures state that a Remnant of the natural Olive tree He has preserved for Himself - albeit the Hebrew Israelites are now scattered all over the Earth.
Thank you all in advance.
Warmest Regards.
George
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This video does not sound very interesting but there is something to learn in all of them.
How We Got The Bible - part 4 of 7 https://youtu.be/3JbOKu5Ento (https://youtu.be/3JbOKu5Ento)
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I'm wondering, if the Jews in Israel are not the real Hebrew Israelites, why does God send historically bad weather to America whenever a serious push is made by the American government to "part His land" (Joel 3:2), in this ongoing "peace deal" between them and the arabs?
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Among other things, that assumes God sends "historically bad weather to America whenever a serious push is made by the American government to "part His land" (Joel 3:2), in this ongoing "peace deal" between them and the arabs".
I'd want to know first who was making that claim.
I don't believe Ray said that none of the Jews in Israel are physical "Jews" descended from the original tribes, only that some of them may not be. Correct me if I'm wrong about what Ray said.
Please pardon me one further ignorance. I'm not familiar with the term "Hebrew Israelites" and why there should be "real" ones and (presumably) "not real" ones. Can someone explain that please? "Real" HEBREW Israelites? Real Hebrew ISRAELITES? Or is the the combination of both that may or may not be real?
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Remember when Ray said there are Jews in Ethiopia? Cold black were his words but I forget which audio it was and why he said it in the first place. My memory stinks.🤔
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Hi Dave, and to everyone else:
"I'd want to know first who was making that claim"
1) I have been personally observing this phenomenon for the past 3 years by carefully watching the news from Israel. Until recently this mostly involved the organization called "The Quartet", which is comprised of The United Nations, America, Russia, and The European Union. It's very easy to do. The thing you have to do is watch whenever someone who represents the American government (The President or any of his representatives) makes a serious push for the nation of Israel to give up more land to the "Palestinians" (Philistines), OR if they harshly criticize Israel for their God Given Land (Genesis 15:18). I mark the date on my calendar for when any meeting is scheduled for this "peace" process, and IF PROGRESS towards giving up land is made or attempted to be made, God responds. His response depends on the EFFORTS made by America, and also Europe.
2) I first learned of this phenomenon from the books called "The Israel Omen" and "The Israel Omen II", by David Brennan. I decided to test his theory out by observing, for myself, whether this phenomenon is true. For the past 3 years, I have observed 12 such events, on my own watch. Here is the list, and I hope you all don't mind a really long post replete with examples, but since people have rightly wanted more information on this topic...
a) The Quartet met on September 30th, 2015. The next day, Hurricane Joaquin strengthened from a Cat. 2 to a Cat. 4. Although it never made landfall in the U.S., another large storm system over the southeast drew tremendous moisture from the hurricane, resulting in catastrophic 1 in 1000 year flooding in South Carolina, and resulted in 19 deaths (Wikipedia).
b) Hurricane Patricia caused severe flooding in southern Texas on October 24-25 of 2015. The mideast "Quartet" met on October 23rd in Vienna "to coordinate messages, and to pass a STRONG MESSAGE to the parties to calm down the situation on the ground".
c) On Friday June 3rd 2016, the same day that an international conference of the French initiative to FORCE peace talks on Israel occurred in Paris, floodwaters in Paris reached peak levels in what was declared a natural disaster. The Louvre museum was closed as staff hurriedly moved artworks out of the flood path. Secretary of State John Kerry also attended this conference. And severe thunderstorms drenched southeast Texas leading to flash flooding, forcing Governor Greg Abbott to declare a state of disaster for 31 counties. 5 Fort Hood soldiers died as floodwaters overturned their army truck.
d) On August 31st 2016, the Obama administration issued a FIRM REBUKE to Israel for approving 463 housing units in Samaria, CONDEMNING the move and warning that Israel risked undermining "the prospects for a two-state solution". Two days later, Hurricane Hermine made landfall in Florida on September 2nd 2016, with total economic losses across the United States reaching US $550 million (Wikipedia).
e) On Friday September 23rd 2016, the Mideast "Quartet" blasted Israeli "settlements" and claimed they are an obstacle towards peace, emphasizing it's "strong opposition" to construction in Judea and Samaria. Meanwhile, deadly midwest flooding occurred in Wisconsin. "In my 33 years in Vernon County law enforcement, this is the worst I've ever seen," Sheriff John Spears told the AP while surveying flood damage in Victory. "This has been devastating." Minnesota and Iowa also experienced major flooding.
f) On Wednesday October 5th 2016, State Department spokesman Mark Toner issued a SHARP CONDEMNATION of Israel over their approval of construction of homes on state owned land in Shilo for Israelis who were evicted from the community of Amona. Mark Toner called it "another step towards cementing a one state reality of perpetual occupation". (As an aside, the Lord told Abram in Genesis 15:18 that his natural descendants would be given the land from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers). And what happened? Hurricane Matthew happened. In total, the storm killed 47 people in the US, including 26 in North Carolina, 12 in Florida, 3 in Georgia, 4 in South Carolina, and 2 in Virginia.[118][119][120][121] According to the National Centers for Environmental Information, damage from Matthew across the United States reached approximately $10 billion. This ranked it the costliest national disaster in the country for 2016 alongside record floods in Louisiana.[122] (Wikipedia).
g) On Friday October 14th 2016, The United States criticized Israeli policies in Judea and Samaria during a UN Security Council discussion. The meeting was entitled "Illegal Israeli Settlements: Obstacles to Peace and the Two-State Solution". The U.S. representative to the session, Deputy U.S. Ambassador to the UN David Pressman, said Washington is "deeply concerned and STRONGLY OPPOSES settlements which are corrosive to peace". The next day, October 15th 2016, a powerful storm system hit the Pacific Northwest, bringing down trees and power lines, leaving tens of thousands without power, after the remnants of a TYPHOON hit the area. Two rare tornados tore through Tillamook County, Oregon.
h) On May 4th 2017, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said that he "looks forward to discussing with President Trump the best ways to advance peace. This is something we fervently share with the president", after Trump met with PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, who lyingly said that "the Palestinians teach their children peace". Donald Trump has made it clear he wants a peace deal done. On that same day, historic flooding begins in Missouri, Arkansas, and Illinois, leading to 10 deaths over the next several days.
i) On June 21st 2017, Prime Minister Netanyahu met with President Donald Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner, Middle East envoy Jason Greenblatt, and US Ambassador to Israel David Friedman to discuss the peace process with the Palestinian Authority. On June 22nd, Tropical Storm Cindy made landfall in Louisiana and Texas, leading to 2 deaths and the usual flooding outages and trees down. It also affected Alabama and Tennessee.
j) On July 13th 2017, the Mideast Quartet met with US special envoy Jason Greenblatt. That same day, storms pummelled the Midwest and Northeast with rain, triggering widespread flash flooding from Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, New York, and into Massachusetts.
And now, for the most dramatic examples of God's anger (just lately) towards this phony peace process:
k) On Thursday August 24th 2017, President Trump praised Prime Minister Netanyahu following a meeting between the Prime Minister and Trump's son-in-law and senior advisor, Jared Kushner. "Thank you Prime Minister and Jared," Trump wrote via Instagram. "Let's advance #Peace, #Prosperity, and #Security in the area." (As an aside, you might want to look at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, which states that when they shall say Peace Safety (or Security), then cometh sudden destruction, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they shall not escape). The very next day, Hurricane Harvey made landfall in Texas, with never before seen 4 feet of rainfall in some areas of Texas, and leaving Houston devastated.
l) On September 7th 2017, President Trump called a potential two-state solution "the world's most complex and difficult deal," but expressed hope for peace in the region and said that "we are working" on a solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. On September 10th, Hurricane Irma made landfall in Florida, devastating the Florida Keys, and causing 50 deaths and 50 billion dollars in damages (Wikipedia)
In conclusion, this phenomenon has been well observed and documented since 1991, beginning with "The Perfect Storm". Some of the more notable examples include Hurricane Katrina in 2005, which formed after the last Jews were forcibly evacuated from The Gaza Strip, as well as Hurricane Andrew in 1992, and so many other examples too numerous to mention.
To me, it's exciting to be able to visibly watch God at work in this world, and to know that the Lord Jesus' return is getting closer.
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Dave -
Regarding your questions about the terms 'Hebrew Israelites':
Among other things, that assumes God sends "historically bad weather to America whenever a serious push is made by the American government to "part His land" (Joel 3:2), in this ongoing "peace deal" between them and the arabs".
I'd want to know first who was making that claim.
I don't believe Ray said that none of the Jews in Israel are physical "Jews" descended from the original tribes, only that some of them may not be. Correct me if I'm wrong about what Ray said.
Please pardon me one further ignorance. I'm not familiar with the term "Hebrew Israelites" and why there should be "real" ones and (presumably) "not real" ones. Can someone explain that please? "Real" HEBREW Israelites? Real Hebrew ISRAELITES? Or is the the combination of both that may or may not be real?
Unless I am mistaken, the following (KJV) New Testament Scriptures, especially 2 Corinthians 11:22, indicate that the natural descendants of Abraham / Isaac / Jacob, are referenced as either 'Hebrews' or 'Israelites' or both; and Jesus spoke to Saul in the Hebrew Language:
Acts 6:1
And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Acts 26:14
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I
Philippians 3:5
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Hebrews 13:25
Grace be with you all. Amen. Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy.
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Perhaps I should have used the term 'Hebrews / Israelites'?
Regarding what Ray said about the State of modern Israel - I recollect that Ray said something like 'and I do not mean those in the State of Israel', when he was referring to modern day 'Hebrews' / 'Israelites'.
I understand that Ethiopians are all non-white, or mostly non-white; and I understand that some Ethiopians are now living in the modern State of Israel.
Regarding the recent tragic weather that has wiped out a lot of homes, crops, etc, and caused devastation - I understand that there are at least two schools of thought about this:
1. They are all 'Acts of God'.
2. There are weather weapons around that can manipulate weather, and pinpoint where the damage is to be done.
I know that Our Heavenly Father is Sovereign, and He is responsible for all things - but He made mankind accountable for all that they do.
As far as I am aware, The Old Testament Scriptures and The New Testament Scriptures do not confirm that the formation of the modern State of Israel is in the 'Prophecies' spoken by the Hebrew / Israelite Prophets.
I thought Ray taught that the 'Hebrews / Israelites' are scattered all over the Earth; and that in this current Age of His Grace, a remnant of the 'Hebrews / Israelites' will be saved.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Ya'll are talking over my pay-grade.
Let's at least make THIS effort. Instead of bringing up something we think Ray may have said, locate the article or transcript and bring it to the forum. Frankly, I don't recall Ray making any statement that led me to a broad conclusion about whether the Jews in the State of Israel were (mostly) not genuine physical Hebrews/Jews/Israelites. I recall very vividly that he taught as Paul did that "physical Israel" is not the True Circumcision, except for a few.
I've misquoted and/or misunderstood Ray myself on occasions, so I know it can be done. It IS asking a lot, I know...but how else are we going to follow the purpose of the forum?
"At least two schools of thought" about the storms is an understatement.
Somehow I knew there was a book or two behind the other thoughts, though there are so many books, I can't follow them all.
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I fully agree with Dave.
When I see these long threads discussing physical Jews and Israel, I start looking for some spiritual gun to shoot myself in the head. Soooooo boring.
We need to come out of false teachings.
None of the Old Testament figures and the physical Hebrews, Israelites, Jews are all that important. David was a murderer, filled with hate, and the last word out of his mouth was blood. John the Baptist was the greatest of them all, but Jesus said the least in the Kingdom of God would be greater than the Baptist. There is a Scripture that tells us the OT things are there only for examples for the Elect. The last shall be first, and the first shall be last.
Here it is in a nutshell from the inspired writings of Paul, primarily Galatians and Romans and Hebrews.
It is Jesus Who is the Seed, and inheritor of the promises, not Isaac. It is through Jesus that all the nations of the world will be blessed (Genesis), which is universal salvation of all. If you have the Spirit of Jesus within you, then you are His descendant, and one of the "Israel of God", a Spiritual Jew, the Elect, and will inherit all things, as will eventually all mankind. That is the Good News.
So be happy and ditch all the false teachings about physical Israel.
It is all about Jesus and how He will bring about the salvation of all and God will be all in all.
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Thank you John.
And I can say as a fact that Ray did not speak favorably about the current country of Israel. He spoke most unfavorably of it.
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Thanks John
Straight and to the point. I like that.
Please help me out here. I didn't even know what false teachings were until I was guided to reading the Bible, (NT) first. It was a year or more before I joined BT as a member even though I
tried a few times and finally I got in and started reading all of your testaments and stories of Babylon and your church experiences. Honestly, I had no idea it was so evil. Actually I felt guilty
for not raising my kids in church, and when we moved here I told my husband my dream of living in a little town, hearing the bells ring every Sunday and attending church. Haha, Thanks be to Jesus Christ for making me deaf to those false church bells. I have even taken to reading the comments of Christians on FB and I know that this is God's plan for Salvation for all so
I am now understanding more of what all of your stories mean to you and coming out of her. I now see even more now that I see some of my friends back home are putting prayers and pics of
Haggie and all the other evil snakes on their FB posts. I want to say something to them but I know I should not. The beast in me torments me to say something but little by little Jesus is kicking his butt.This judgement is very difficult but I am greatful for every day , hour, minute, second that I have with
Our Saviour. It is hard for me to understand sometimes, I used to envy you guys because your knowledge is awesome, but now I wait for the spiritual lightbulb moments like your shoot from the hip post John.
Please help me with this one
The last shall be first,,,, The last spiritual New Testament shall be first resurrection (the few)
The first shall be last,,, The physical Old Testament shall be last resurrection (the many)
I Love the NT scriptures but as often as I try to understand the OT which is every day and appreciate the stories, I really
have to read and read and read for one or two lightbulbs to blink. I know Ray said that the Elect few are the True Jews, the converted and the only way to understand the deep mysteries of God, deep symbolic mysteries is to be converted and receive from God , His Holy Spirit.
Is my understanding correct and if not , will you please correct me?
Ray said Jesus didn't speak archaic King James and as I do love scripture, I also appreciate
a short and sweet lesson. May God's Grace be with all of you ,Pamela
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Ray called Israel, A swill of a place.
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Thanks John
Straight and to the point. I like that.
Please help me out here. I didn't even know what false teachings were until I was guided to reading the Bible, (NT) first. It was a year or more before I joined BT as a member even though I
tried a few times and finally I got in and started reading all of your testaments and stories of Babylon and your church experiences. Honestly, I had no idea it was so evil. Actually I felt guilty
for not raising my kids in church, and when we moved here I told my husband my dream of living in a little town, hearing the bells ring every Sunday and attending church. Haha, Thanks be to Jesus Christ for making me deaf to those false church bells. I have even taken to reading the comments of Christians on FB and I know that this is God's plan for Salvation for all so
I am now understanding more of what all of your stories mean to you and coming out of her. I now see even more now that I see some of my friends back home are putting prayers and pics of
Haggie and all the other evil snakes on their FB posts. I want to say something to them but I know I should not. The beast in me torments me to say something but little by little Jesus is kicking his butt.This judgement is very difficult but I am greatful for every day , hour, minute, second that I have with
Our Saviour. It is hard for me to understand sometimes, I used to envy you guys because your knowledge is awesome, but now I wait for the spiritual lightbulb moments like your shoot from the hip post John.
Please help me with this one
The last shall be first,,,, The last spiritual New Testament shall be first resurrection (the few)
The first shall be last,,, The physical Old Testament shall be last resurrection (the many)
I Love the NT scriptures but as often as I try to understand the OT which is every day and appreciate the stories, I really
have to read and read and read for one or two lightbulbs to blink. I know Ray said that the Elect few are the True Jews, the converted and the only way to understand the deep mysteries of God, deep symbolic mysteries is to be converted and receive from God , His Holy Spirit.
Is my understanding correct and if not , will you please correct me?
Ray said Jesus didn't speak archaic King James and as I do love scripture, I also appreciate
a short and sweet lesson. May God's Grace be with all of you ,Pamela
Hi Pamela,
I am still at work. Been working 7 days a week due to a computer conversion. Have to learn to do things another way than I have done before. So I will take a break to answer your question.
First principles. Only Jesus is our teacher. Trust no man. If any have true understanding, it is only through the Spirit of God, in many cases through others who have come before.
How do we know the Truth? Through the Two Witnesses. It is written, "Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses
let every word be established." And, yes, that is stated several times in the Scriptures.
Since I am at work, I do not have my study materials and Scriptures before me. So you are getting my answer from memory.
Yes, the New Testament Elect, from the Day of Pentecost (almost two thousand years ago) until the return of Jesus will take precedent over the ones in the Old Testament. The Spirit of God was first given on Pentecost.
That fulfills the Scripture of the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
Also fulfills the Scriptures of the second son being placed before the first son. Cain and Abel, it was Abel who was given priority. Ishmael and Isaac, Isaac received the promises. Esau and Jacob, Jacob received the birthright. Manasseh and Ephraim, the second son Ephraim took precedence.
Also the NT Scripture that listed the OT personages and said that they died without receiving the promises. The last line stating that they without us would not receive the promises. Ray discussed that point in one of his writings.
Hope the above helps. Have to go back to work. Take care.
John
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Good morning John
It certainly does help and Thank you for taking time for me . I am in realization of the two witness now when I read a scripture and know I saw it somewhere else and also learning to match spiritual with spiritual. Yes, Jesus is our greatest teacher and sometimes he inspires us to get a little from our friends 😁
The teaching of the many and the few, the old and the new, what is false, what is true is falling into place and I know I can only do as the Lord wants and not what my impatient nature wants.
Your explanation of the second son being placed by the first never registered when I read the stories in the OT, that helps a lot. Once again John, Thank you 😊. Pamela
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Good morning John
It certainly does help and Thank you for taking time for me . I am in realization of the two witness now when I read a scripture and know I saw it somewhere else and also learning to match spiritual with spiritual. Yes, Jesus is our greatest teacher and sometimes he inspires us to get a little from our friends 😁
The teaching of the many and the few, the old and the new, what is false, what is true is falling into place and I know I can only do as the Lord wants and not what my impatient nature wants.
Your explanation of the second son being placed by the first never registered when I read the stories in the OT, that helps a lot. Once again John, Thank you 😊. Pamela
First page of the website. Just below the Lake of Fire articles. Three articles down is an article called "12 Truths to Understanding His Word."
Truth # 6 is about the two witnesses.
All 12 truths are a magnificent exposition of the Scriptures in simple, plain English. Those 12 truths will raise the spiritual I.Q. of anyone, even if they only have a smidgen of the Spirit.
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John
Thank you for directions to the piece of realestate I must buy that holds much treasure for me.
I will start digging tonight.😁 Thank you very much John. Pamela
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I'll try not to stray too far from the subject:
I listened to the lecture from Ray that Dennis referred us to. The very last thing Ray says is that he had an idea when the 1000 years would be up. Does anyone know what he thought that was?
I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, but I wanted to put this verse out there because it's about the law and fulfillment :
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5 So since heaven and earth has not ended, the law has not been fully fulfilled .
To be honest with you (well, I always am) I'm struggling with Revelations. I always do, but lately it's a lot. Ray only got so far in his Revelation study and then it's confusing to me when he talks about 9/11 and how until that event he truly did not think there was any way to know how quickly the Kingdom would be coming. But after 9/11, and referring to those verses in Isaiah 30, he changed his mind. So, what else is there that we aren't seeing? I struggle with every number being just a symbol because can't a number ( like 1000) be a literal number? And the seventy weeks of Daniel and times and half a time, etc. Revelations is suppose to reveal His word to us , not cover it up. And also there's a lot of old testament prophecy that has not yet come to pass and it has to come to pass to fulfill all so shouldn't we study it?
Oh, and the two witnesses - that's so interesting it's brought up because I was reading about the two witnesses in Revelations and how they were dead and then rise again. What could that be about in Revelations if we understand the two witnesses to be two or three witnesses to the truth? Ray did not think these were people or spiritual beings, just biblical truths? But how does that fit? I don't understand it.
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Octoberrose, here's the passage to which you referred.
Rev 11:3 and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;
Rev 11:4 (these are the two olive trees , and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand);
Rev 11:5 and if any one may will to injure them, fire doth proceed out of their mouth, and doth devour their enemies, and if any one may will to injure them, thus it behoveth him to be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have authority to shut the heaven, that it may not rain rain in the days of their prophecy, and authority they have over the waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the land with every plague, as often as they may will.
Rev 11:7 `And when they may finish their testimony, the beast that is coming up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them,
Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies are upon the broad-place of the great city (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified,)
Rev 11:9 and they shall behold--they of the peoples, and tribes, and tongues, and nations--their dead bodies three days and a half, and their dead bodies they shall not suffer to be put into tombs,
Rev 11:10 and those dwelling upon the land shall rejoice over them, and shall make merry, and gifts they shall send to one another, because these--the two prophets--did torment those dwelling upon the land.'
I can't say I understand every symbol in even this passage...but it doesn't matter horribly, because it is the principle that counts. For evidence, notice 11:4 (which I put in parentheses) which also refers to the Two Witnesses in 11:3.
Follow on to the bolded verses. Do you understand them? I think you do, even if you think you don't. ;D You've lived these.
Rev 22:6 And he said to me, `These words are stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly:
Rev 22:7 Lo, I come quickly (suddenly); happy is he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'
Be encouraged, not perplexed. Almost everybody who has posted a "testimony" in this forum has "testified" to these things and has kept (to whatever degree and to whatever understanding) the "words of the prophecy of this scroll." Nobody will know they are or have, however, until they look back. Don't let theology (or eschatology) rob you of your own precious experience. Be happy.
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The Book of Revelation is not for the young. It is not literal, but symbolic. As Ray said, all the symbols are explained elsewhere in the Scriptures.
As for the two witnesses, they are not two literal men. The Lord of the whole earth would not allow two mere men to be His witnesses.
The two witnesses of Rev 11:3 are the two olive trees and two lamps stands of Rev 11:4, which are explained in Zechariah 4:3-6 and 4:11-14.
But, alas, the two olive trees and two lamp stands in Zechariah are also symbols. The meaning of olive oil is explained in other Scriptures.
But you do not have to go far because Zechariah 4:6 gives the answer,
"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of hosts." Get it?
Or you can read Ray's truth #6 in his article "12 Truths to Understanding His Word" for a plainer explanation of the two witnesses, without all the symbolism.
Take Ray's explanation into the discussion of the two witnesses in Rev 11:3 and thereafter, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, understanding will come as long as you do not take the symbols literally, and if God wants you to understand at this time.
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I studied about the two witness tonight. My understanding is that they are the two scriptures that must match, and match
Spiritually as a witness to God's truth. Christiandom will cherry pick only one scripture that will tickle your ears and and deceive you to think the scriptures are literal instead of spiritual. With that said " All is of God" . With the two witnesses, the modern day snakes don't have a leg to slither on
and they know it. Before I came to BT I thought the Bible was literal and I wore big fuzzy pajamas
to bed , even though I was going through menopause because I didn't want to be caught naked
when Jesus came 😂😂😂 my husband thought I was nuts ,for a long time, so did I. I did a lot of crazy stuff but going forward, I to thought the two witness were men but I read that the scripture
of Elijah and Moses returning was just a vision and not literal as the church would like you to believe. These modern day Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes , priests, theological parasites, TV evangelicals, pastors, etc are very evil and I am just beginning to see from reading the 911 papers and Tophet of old just how evil they are but I also know for sure that evil is framed by God, He runs the whole show, and everything is going according to plan, God's plan for the salvation of mankind .I think it was Awesomesaviour who said it was exciting or something like that to watch Our Fathers work. It reminded me of when Jesus was just
a young lad of 12 and told His mom and dad that I must be about my Fathers business. I thought,
well, He is still about His Fathers business and we have been give the honour to participate even though sometimes we don't want to. These are some scary times for sure and I really think about my kids and grandkids the most but I cannot help them, only God can do that.
I believe when Ray said there's not enough power in this world to take down BT. I truely believe
we are here to become more and more like Jesus every day, a little at a time and he's providing
everything we need and will until the resurrection of the Elect and the White Throne Judgement. It's all going to be wonderfully weaved together, I can't wait 😊 Dave is right about being happy.
Some days it's very difficult with that beast tagging along all the time but I know Jesus is in control of everything. This is only an observation but it seems that the turmoil of the world is happening quite quickly, but then my quickly is not God's quickly . If there is anything in my post that you think is incorrect please correct me. I feel very joyous tonight after reading the 12 truths I think I at least have one eye to see and one ear to hear. I have gone on to long but it's John's fault, he
was a tool for Jesus. I just called you a tool John and I know your not offended. 😜
Rom.15:3... May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony
with one another in accordance with Christ Jesus that together you may with one
Voice, Glorify the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one
another as Christ has welcomed you from the Glory of God.
Rom.15:13.... May the God of Hope fill you with all JOY and PEACE in believing so that by the
power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in HOPE.
Praise the Lord, Praise His Holy name. Amen
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Thank you so much for the replies . ( I don't know how but my autocorrect just wrote 'therapies' . Is that not pretty hilarious? )
Dave, you are so right that this has been robing me of my joy. How'd you know?
I don't want to just read Ray's words and accept them, I want to understand. I understood so quickly the fundamental things of this site. It was wonderful and you all know just what I mean. But this, this end times understanding, as John says God has just not given it to me yet. Oh, I can read the words but they don't seem to work for me yet. Arggh. :-[
Love Romans 15:13 Pamela! Truly the Holy Spirit is the only one who can impart God's peace, joy and hope. Everything else is counterfeit.
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I don't know about the Hebrew Israelites but the Christian democracies of America and Europe are the "Israel of God" in prophecy according to Ray.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16903.0.html
I don't know if this adds anything to this thread but just remembered a thread on this a while back so thought I'd post the link. I understand you're asking about the genetic physical Israel and not the prophetic Israel necessarily but.. I dunno.
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The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.
What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God? Just two Scriptures please.
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The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.
What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God? Just two Scriptures please.
John, I'm, sorry...but that may be one of the most foolish questions I've seen in a while. There aren't "two scriptures" that say I am typing on a computer keyboard at this moment, either. I assure you, however, that I was. America and Europe are not mentioned by name in Scripture, so one has to look at the "references" and make a judgement. That America and the Europeans make up the largest part of the history of Christendom is a no-brainer. Aside from a few exceptions (exceptions to the rule are allowed, as in some of the physical Jews of Christ's day were also part of His church, including all of the Apostles) the "Church" spread out with the Roman Empire primarily into Europe. The history from that point is pretty clear as well.
If not Europe and the US, then what "kings" have been responsible for the spread of Christendom throughout the world? Who else has said "Lord, Lord" and not done the things He said? Who else is responsible for "many wonderful works" but are cast aside because He never knew them? Who else has said the He is the Christ, but have deceived many?
I know it's not all about "kings" and governments. These things are also "symbolic" of Spiritual things that also reside in individuals. But "prophecy" is pronounced in broad terms.
HIS Spiritual church, however, comes out of that Church--the "Israel of God" in prophecy.
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Thank you so much for the replies . ( I don't know how but my autocorrect just wrote 'therapies' . Is that not pretty hilarious? )
Dave, you are so right that this has been robing me of my joy. How'd you know?
Yes, that's funny. And I didn't "know" know...I just knew. Anytime I've considered the Revelation as (first) 'literal', and (then) symbolic of physical things, the results have been less-than-satisfying, to say the least. I couldn't work up a smidgen of joy, for example, over "streets of gold" and "gates of pearl" and strange creatures that worshipped around a throne, and other things that were supposed to "inspire" me. Forget about things that were supposed to scare the hell out of me...like a lake of fire.
Hang in there, and remember it's in looking back, we see. You just haven't made the connection completely between what you've already gone through in your faith and understanding (both good and bad) and what's in there. Those bolded verses are well-taught by Ray, and you know what they mean better than most, even if you don't know you know. I'm convinced of that.
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Oh, and the two witnesses - that's so interesting it's brought up because I was reading about the two witnesses in Revelations and how they were dead and then rise again. What could that be about in Revelations if we understand the two witnesses to be two or three witnesses to the truth? Ray did not think these were people or spiritual beings, just biblical truths? But how does that fit? I don't understand it.
Perhaps (or perhaps not) an interesting side note,
I was listening to this podcast about 'cults' yesterday and I learned that the two leaders of the Heavens Gate cult believed, and deceived about 30 or so followers into believing, that they were the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation.. they ended up committing the largest mass suicide in America history..
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The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.
What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God? Just two Scriptures please.
John, I'm, sorry...but that may be one of the most foolish questions I've seen in a while. There aren't "two scriptures" that say I am typing on a computer keyboard at this moment, either. I assure you, however, that I was. America and Europe are not mentioned by name in Scripture, so one has to look at the "references" and make a judgement. That America and the Europeans make up the largest part of the history of Christendom is a no-brainer. Aside from a few exceptions (exceptions to the rule are allowed, as in some of the physical Jews of Christ's day were also part of His church, including all of the Apostles) the "Church" spread out with the Roman Empire primarily into Europe. The history from that point is pretty clear as well.
If not Europe and the US, then what "kings" have been responsible for the spread of Christendom throughout the world? Who else has said "Lord, Lord" and not done the things He said? Who else is responsible for "many wonderful works" but are cast aside because He never knew them? Who else has said the He is the Christ, but have deceived many?
I know it's not all about "kings" and governments. These things are also "symbolic" of Spiritual things that also reside in individuals. But "prophecy" is pronounced in broad terms.
HIS Spiritual church, however, comes out of that Church--the "Israel of God" in prophecy.
No need to be sorry. I am not going to cut my wrists over something said about me. I cannot be offended.
One thing I learned from Ray is once you have the truth, then do not let it go.
Another learned from Ray is the need for at least two witnesses to establish any Scriptural Truth. God gave us the rule to keep His true Church in the Truth over the ages.
It is not about if you are typing on your keyboard. It is about what is Scriptural Truth and Doctrine.
Ray taught that the false church cannot even provide one witness, much less two, to their lying teachings of immortal soul, heaven, hell, eternal punishment, God is a trinity, and on and on they go.
In the Book of Galatians, the inspired Apostle Paul spoke of the Israel of God. But he did not mention America or
Europe.
The false Worldwide Church of God taught us unfortunate members that the United States and Great Britain were the modern day descendants of Israel. So I am very familiar with this false doctrine.
So this foolish follower of Jesus asks a simple question. For those of you who believe that America and Europe are the Israel of God, what are your two Scriptures in proof? Two Scriptures please in support of your teaching.
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Show me two or three scriptures that mention you and me by name, and I'll respond. And I'm not talking about the Apostle and the King who were named before we were. Yet I am certain that we are both "in there" and spiritual truths are true about us both.
To be clear to largeli and others, this link has a much fuller explanation of the term than John has provided.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16903.msg153479.html#msg153479
It goes back to the basis of what was said earlier in the thread (which John agreed with completely). The Israel of God in prophecy is the whole of the "Church" (Judeo-Christianity, the Great Whore, Jerusalem below, spiritual Sodom and Babylon, and those being called out of her) while the "Israel of God" which Paul mentioned is this "Israel (Church)" undergoing judgement and separation--the "circumcision/uncircumicision" that matters he had just moments before written about.
Two judgements. One fire. https://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
And the one John mentioned in the above thread: https://bible-truths.com/lake8.html
The called and the called and chosen. The church, and His church.
If christian Europe and christian America are NOT in any way, historically or currently, heirs, daughters, and proponents of the Great False religion, then we can all breathe a huge sigh of relief that they are not in the prophecy and get dressed for Church this Sunday. Except for the Sabbath-keepers. It's crystal clear from History that christian Europe and christian America have assumed the major role in the institution and spread of carnal religion. Since it IS clear, and since the prophecy is clear to any with eyes to see, then to see them as a fulfillment of the prophecy makes perfect spiritual sense. Only and exclusively? Of course not...but predominately.
What Ray called christian Europe and America was the "Israel of God" in quotations. Somehow, I doubt that the WWC made such a spiritual distinction.
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I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) for over 25 years. Ray was a minister in that church. Dennis and many others here were also members, although I do not recall meeting anyone here while I was a member of the WCG.
The WCG taught that the English speaking peoples were descendants of Joseph, whose sons received the birthright blessing from Israel. The people of Great Britain and the Commonwealth nations came from Ephraim and the people of the United States came from Manassas. The descendants of the other Ten Tribes lived in Western Europe. What drivel and false teaching. No Scriptural proof in support of those falsehoods. No two witnesses.
Jesus freed me from the slavery of the WCG. I will never go back to any false teachings. Jesus placed me on the sands of a seashore. I looked behind me and this ugly Beast rose out of the ocean. The Beast was me and Jesus slayed it by the Words from His mouth.
"Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established."
I will not believe that America and Europe are the Israel of God unless at least Two Scriptural Witnesses are provided, that they are a Spiritual match, and that they do not contradict other Scriptures.
Anything else is just opinion.
"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of hosts."
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As I expected. WCG promotes carnal, completely unsupported doctrine. I don't blame you for being glad to be free. Had I ever believed such carnal-minded twaddle, I'd be glad to be rid of it too. There are phrases from my own background (Southern Baptist) that still ring my bell when I hear them, even though my understanding has been changed concerning them.
I just want it made abundantly clear that Ray Smith did NOT teach that, and did not MEAN that when he used the phrase.
Therefor the "phrase" holds a different meaning for me, and I trust to any who read the links. Read the links. That's all I can ask of anybody.
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From LOF 11
A TALE OF TWO JERUSALEM'S
"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is NEW JERUSALEM..." (Rev. 3:12).
What is this "New Jerusalem?" It is a "Mother." Mothers are women who have given birth to children. We have all been birthed by a physical woman-a mother. In order to be "born again," we must be birthed by a spiritual mother. And just who is that spiritual mother?
"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage [through the DEPTHS of Satan] with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is THE MOTHER OF US ALL" (Gal. 4:25-26).
Our spiritual mother is Jerusalem above. Don't be deceived by the phrase, "...of us ALL," seeing that Paul himself puts a disclaimer at the end of chapter 5 showing specifically who the "all" includes here:
"For IN Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE [creation] . And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the [spiritual] Israel of God" (Gal. 5:15-16).
And what is this "rule" that Paul is speaking of? Why those who are living by the spirit, and not the flesh and letter of the Law of Moses. Those who live by the "Law of the SPIRIT" which is what the New Covenant is all about.
"LOVE your enemies!"
"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world"
The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life!
"I am crucified WITH Christ!"
These are the spiritual laws of the New Covenant. They are far superior to the laws of Moses under the Old Covenant.
MOUNT SINAI AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE BONDAGE
Paul tells us how Abraham had two sons-one was born of a bondwoman after the flesh, and the other born of a freewoman by promise. Paul says,
"which things are an allegory: for these ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; the one from the Mount Sinai [Mt Sinai is where the Ten Commandments and Laws of Moses were given. What is Gods attitude toward the Laws of Moses, the ten commandments, the Old Covenant-'Mt. Sinai'?] which genders [gives birth] to BONDAGE, which is Agar" (Gal. 4:24).
Notice how this whole Mosaic, Ten Commandment, Old Covenant, Mt. Sinai system is categorized:
"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in BONDAGE with her children" (Verse 25).
" But Jerusalem which is above [spiritual Jerusalem] is FREE, which is the mother of us all... Nevertheless what says the scripture? CAST OUT the bondwoman AND her son [her children, Ver. 25] : for THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN" (Gal. 4:26 & 30).
And I believe we all understand that what being "heir" to, is the Kingdom of God.
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From the Towers Paper
Gal.3:29..."And if you be Christ's then are you Abrahams SEED and HEIRS according to the promise"?
Gal. 6:15-16...For in Christ Jesus, nether circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature, and as many as walk as according to this rule, peace be on them and mercy and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD".
All caps are Ray's and he says" Yes it is the new creature ( creation) which is now the ISRAEL OF God. not the Christ forsaking Jews of modern day Palestine.
When Gentiles are Jews and Jews are not Jews
( Is America part of prophecy)?
Ray from the Towers Paper
Isaiah 30 Prophecy
"And so we have the historical fulfillment of prophecy. OR DO WE?
It has been remarked many times that prophecy is DUAL,
Actually I believe that many prophecies are multilayered, that is , they are numerous fulfillments, usually beginning with the physical and
literal moving toward the figurative and Spiritual."
Have you guys ever done a study on the Towers Paper and also Tophet of Old. I think it is very
eye opening especially nowadays?
Isa.30:25...... When God will once again ordain Tophet of old. (Figuratively not literally)
Anyway, maybe we can start a new thread about it. I'm going camping on the beach for the weekend for one more time before the snow flies. God Bless all of you. Pamela
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Camping on the beach? I'm jealous! ;) have a great time Pamela.
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Email to Ray about America, Great Britain and Israel..
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5688.msg46050.html#msg46050
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And now we have Hurricane Nate slamming into the Gulf Coast... Anyone want to guess WHY God has caused Hurricane Nate? You might want to read this:
U.S President Donald Trump said Saturday that he wanted to give his efforts to reach peace between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs a chance before moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. "I want to give that a shot before I even think about moving the embassy to Jerusalem," Trump told former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee in an interview on his new program "Huckabee". "If we can make peace between the Palestinians and Israel, I think it'll lead to ultimately peace in the Middle East, which has to happen," he added.
Hours before going on air, Trump took to Twitter to promote the show and his appearance on it, inviting his followers to watch him make an appearance as Huckabee's first guest.
I will now be adding this hurricane to my long list of examples of God's reaction to that whole phony "peace" process. By the way John from Kentucky, your state will be feeling some of this weather.
Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees in His day? Here is a double witness from the Scriptures:
"And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matthew 16:3)
"Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? (Luke 12:56)
May God Bless.
Dean
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Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Luk 12:54 And He also said to the crowd (in parable), When you see the cloud rising up from the west, you immediately say, A storm is coming; and it happens so.
Luk 12:55 And when a south wind is blowing, you say, There will be heat; and it occurs.
Luk 12:56 Hypocrites! You know to discern the face of the earth and of the heaven, but how is it you do not discern this time?
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And now we have Hurricane Nate slamming into the Gulf Coast... Anyone want to guess WHY God has caused Hurricane Nate? You might want to read this:
U.S President Donald Trump said Saturday that he wanted to give his efforts to reach peace between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs a chance before moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. "I want to give that a shot before I even think about moving the embassy to Jerusalem," Trump told former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee in an interview on his new program "Huckabee". "If we can make peace between the Palestinians and Israel, I think it'll lead to ultimately peace in the Middle East, which has to happen," he added.
Hours before going on air, Trump took to Twitter to promote the show and his appearance on it, inviting his followers to watch him make an appearance as Huckabee's first guest.
I will now be adding this hurricane to my long list of examples of God's reaction to that whole phony "peace" process. By the way John from Kentucky, your state will be feeling some of this weather.
Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees in His day? Here is a double witness from the Scriptures:
"And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matthew 16:3)
"Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? (Luke 12:56)
May God Bless.
Dean
You should be careful about attributing bad weather events that kill and destroy to our Great God like the unlearned who incorrectly call them Acts of God.
Much can be learned from the Book of Job (possibly the oldest book of Scripture in terms of when written) of basic knowledge of sources of good and evil.
The great wind or tornado that killed Job's ten children came from Satan. Elsewhere in the New Testament, Satan is called the Prince of the Power of the air, and the god of this world. These destructive killing events are Acts of Satan. He has been given these powers for now.
For your own sake, take care in stating that God is doing these evil events. He may overlook your ignorance, but then again may bring you to judgment. Tread lightly and respectfully with Almighty God.
In Kentucky we are already getting some rain. The harvest is over. We are dry and the rain is good. My grass and rose bushes can use the water. "The LORD gives and the LORD takes. Praise be to the LORD." (Job)
P.S. We used to have a rule against discussing politics and political leaders on the Forum. Hope that rule is still enforced. It is a good rule. Bad enough if we have to listen to religious error. Discussing politics would bring one to tears and gnashing of teeth.
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Can Satan do anything without the permission of God?
"Did not your fathers thus, and did not OUR GOD bring all this EVIL upon us, and upon this CITY? (Nehemiah 13:18)
"Shall there be EVIL in a CITY, and THE LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6)
Yes, much can be learned by the book of Job regarding the weather, can't it? How about these, for example...
"Then THE LORD answered Job out of the WHIRLWIND (Job 38:1)
"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? (Job 38:22-23)
"Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are? (Job 38:35)
Perhaps you, John, should read the entire chapters of Job 38-39, and see what natural events God attributes to HIMSELF. Or will you contend with GOD like Job?
"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a FLOOD OF WATERS upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die". (Genesis 6:7)
Shall we go over the basics of Noah's flood, John?