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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: nightmare sasuke on April 08, 2006, 05:20:19 AM

Title: Stupid website
Post by: nightmare sasuke on April 08, 2006, 05:20:19 AM
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"
Title: Stupid website
Post by: love_magnified on April 08, 2006, 05:49:41 AM
http://thekingdomcome.com/confronting_universalism_complete_5_part_series?PHPSESSID=633dcdf8f807a073c0318e5c7654cfee

See how many strawmen you can find in this one. My jaw dropped at some of the logic.
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 08, 2006, 11:53:57 AM
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"


Hi Nightmare, I read this a few months back and was amazed then at how little scripture this guy used in his "refutation" it had a real "denominational church" feel about it, about as dry and uninspiring as a Jonathon Edwards paper.

Joe
Title: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 08, 2006, 12:06:32 PM
Quote from: love_magnified
http://thekingdomcome.com/confronting_universalism_complete_5_part_series?PHPSESSID=633dcdf8f807a073c0318e5c7654cfee

See how many strawmen you can find in this one. My jaw dropped at some of the logic.



LM, so true, here is just one example (I cut and pasted this from "The Kingdom" article).

“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.� – 1 Cor 15:22

The first question that must be asked is HOW… How did people become IN ADAM and how do people become IN CHRIST? It would seem obvious that ALL men are born in Adam via natural birth, but NOT all men are born in Christ.  Does this contradict the text?  Not in the least bit.  The text is NOT saying all who are in Adam will be in Christ, but rather it is contrasting that all that were in Adam were under death, and thus all who are in Christ (which is not everyone) will be made alive.


See how the author changes the order of the scripture to change it's meaning?

The scripture does NOT read "all in Christ" will be made alive.

It reads; IN Christ all will be made alive.

Tricky but transparent.

Again, like Jonathon Edwards, little scripture, much supposition.

Joe
Title: Stupid website
Post by: shibboleth on April 08, 2006, 12:51:35 PM
I was in a Presbyterian church and asked the pastor if Adam and Eve were saved. He said yes they were because God had provided them coverings for their sins. Something about what he said was unsettling to me. I couldn't pinpoint it at the time, but knew there was a key that in what he said that only God could unlock.
After I left the church, one day God showed me that if all people were with Adam when he was clothed in unrighteousness, then all people were in Adam when he was clothed with righteousness. This was the first universalist truths I learned, although at the time I didn't know enough to refute ET.
Over the past year, I have learned more and more about our great and wonderful God. By the way, back in ET days, I didn't think God was so great and wonderful. I was just afraid of Him and what He would do to me if I didn't measure up. Well guess what, I CAN'T MEASURE UP! My yardstick is too short.
I read some of Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon and now I realize they both didn't understand grace at all, as most preachers don't
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Sorin on April 08, 2006, 01:06:22 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver
Quote from: love_magnified
http://thekingdomcome.com/confronting_universalism_complete_5_part_series?PHPSESSID=633dcdf8f807a073c0318e5c7654cfee

See how many strawmen you can find in this one. My jaw dropped at some of the logic.



LM, so true, here is just one example (I cut and pasted this from "The Kingdom" article).

“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.� – 1 Cor 15:22

The first question that must be asked is HOW… How did people become IN ADAM and how do people become IN CHRIST? It would seem obvious that ALL men are born in Adam via natural birth, but NOT all men are born in Christ.  Does this contradict the text?  Not in the least bit.  The text is NOT saying all who are in Adam will be in Christ, but rather it is contrasting that all that were in Adam were under death, and thus all who are in Christ (which is not everyone) will be made alive.


See how the author changes the order of the scripture to change it's meaning?

The scripture does NOT read "all in Christ" will be made alive.

It reads; IN Christ all will be made alive.

Tricky but transparent.

Again, like Jonathon Edwards, little scripture, much supposition.

Joe





They who are of The Synagogue of Satan will do anything to pervert The Scripture. As your example clearly shows how decieving these people are.

Alot of people would not catch that and believe these Liars.

If " As in Adam all die " then " In Christ ( That Same, not another) " ALL "  Will be made Alive then how is it possible to believe that it's not the same " All
" but rather a Christian 98% of all? 98% all???

note: I got that " 98% of all " from a Christian detractor of Ray. :lol:

98% equals all? UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 ](*,)  ](*,)  ](*,)  ](*,)  ](*,)
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on April 08, 2006, 02:57:40 PM
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"



I didn't find one quote of scripture in that article.

Not worth readnig... NEXT!!!

Hehe :P
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 08, 2006, 04:38:29 PM
i'm getting a vision of all these guys wandering around after the second resurrection saying stuff like


ohhhhhh so that's what the bride of Christ means

ohhhhhhh so that's what UR is all about

ohhhhhhhh so that's what a great white throne judgement is

ohhhhhh so that's what the lake of fire means

ooouuuuuuchhhhhhh so that's what chastening grace means

ohhhhhhh we really didn't have a clue did we

LOL!

which is funny because that's what i'm like now

  :lol:
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Gill on April 08, 2006, 05:06:57 PM
Hahaha, Frank ...so true  :lol: .
Title: Stupid website
Post by: rvhill on April 08, 2006, 05:44:27 PM
Quote from: ertsky
i'm getting a vision of all these guys wandering around after the second resurrection saying stuff like


ohhhhhh so that's what the bride of Christ means

ohhhhhhh so that's what UR is all about

ohhhhhhhh so that's what a great white throne judgement is

ohhhhhh so that's what the lake of fire means

ooouuuuuuchhhhhhh so that's what chastening grace means

ohhhhhhh we really didn't have a clue did we

LOL!

which is funny because that's what i'm like now

  :lol:


something tell me I will still be doing these things :shock:  #-o  ](*,)  [-o<
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: Harryfeat on April 08, 2006, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"


Hello nightmare,

I read the article and found it interesting.  It basically is a treatise on greek translation and grammar with emphasis on what was used to support their opinions. Hell wasn't even the main focus.

I found some of the arguments compelling especially including authors of the period to see how they used the meaning of words.  I have always found idiomatic phrases and common usage language interesting.  

There certainly was not a lack of quoted scripture, even though it was only examples from Ray's text.

Just for the record, I don't believe in eternal torture.

Let us know how your refutation goes.

feat
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 08, 2006, 07:38:42 PM
Quote
What church are you affiliated with? Tekton is an independent ministry. I attend a Southern Baptist church but would be comfortable just about anywhere where the Bible was honored as the Word of God.


i found this quite humourous

them southern baptists are known far and wide for their honouring the word of God don't you know LOL!

f
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 08, 2006, 08:06:27 PM
Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"


Hello nightmare,

I read the article and found it interesting.  It basically is a treatise on greek translation and grammar with emphasis on what was used to support their opinions. Hell wasn't even the main focus.

I found some of the arguments compelling especially including authors of the period to see how they used the meaning of words.  I have always found idiomatic phrases and common usage language interesting.  

There certainly was not a lack of quoted scripture, even though it was only examples from Ray's text.

Just for the record, I don't believe in eternal torture.

Let us know how your refutation goes.

feat



"Certainly not a lack of scripture" !!?? He was using supposition to refute scriptural witnesses presented by Ray. Much of the Greek he defined was influenced by modern usage not the original definition of the time it was written. All languages have been influenced by Latin first and English now, that is one reason the French have been so vigilant in attempting to keep foreign influence from "tainting" their language, although it will prove to be a futile attempt.

Joe
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: Harryfeat on April 08, 2006, 10:39:34 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver
Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"


Hello nightmare,

I read the article and found it interesting.  It basically is a treatise on greek translation and grammar with emphasis on what was used to support their opinions. Hell wasn't even the main focus.

I found some of the arguments compelling especially including authors of the period to see how they used the meaning of words.  I have always found idiomatic phrases and common usage language interesting.  

There certainly was not a lack of quoted scripture, even though it was only examples from Ray's text.

Just for the record, I don't believe in eternal torture.

Let us know how your refutation goes.

feat



"Certainly not a lack of scripture" !!?? He was using supposition to refute scriptural witnesses presented by Ray. Much of the Greek he defined was influenced by modern usage not the original definition of the time it was written. All languages have been influenced by Latin first and English now, that is one reason the French have been so vigilant in attempting to keep foreign influence from "tainting" their language, although it will prove to be a futile attempt.

Joe


 I was simply reacting to the statement above that said "I didn't find one quote of scripture in that article."

I also stated that they only cited from Ray's text.

 Initially, you also stated that there was some scripture quoted yet you didn't say anything more about the scripture quoted.

I am not a language scholar and I don't know whether your knowledge or the author's knowledge is any better or worse than mine. It makes a lot of sense to me to use every tool you can to find the etymology of the words used.  In my view,  common usage in other writings at the same period could be more compelling case for acceptance in that regard. That's also why I found the article interesting.  

I do know that it is important for me  to keep a healthy skepticism about whatever anyone  interprets as the truth.  I don't necessarily agree with the author on the whole but then I don't agree with a lot of things people write.  I just take them for what they are worth.

Does that help answer your question marks?

feat
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 08, 2006, 11:07:49 PM
Quote
# As a preterist I believe Satan is now bound and not doing anything.


another classic from tekton

LOL! this tekton guy is a classic

f
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 09, 2006, 12:05:48 PM
Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: hillsbororiver
Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Someone wrote an article supposedly refuting Ray:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

I plan on reading his article about Hell and writing a counter argument against it. How would you like that: "refuting those that try to refute but are not - Nightmare Sasuke"


Hello nightmare,

I read the article and found it interesting.  It basically is a treatise on greek translation and grammar with emphasis on what was used to support their opinions. Hell wasn't even the main focus.

I found some of the arguments compelling especially including authors of the period to see how they used the meaning of words.  I have always found idiomatic phrases and common usage language interesting.  

There certainly was not a lack of quoted scripture, even though it was only examples from Ray's text.

Just for the record, I don't believe in eternal torture.

Let us know how your refutation goes.

feat



"Certainly not a lack of scripture" !!?? He was using supposition to refute scriptural witnesses presented by Ray. Much of the Greek he defined was influenced by modern usage not the original definition of the time it was written. All languages have been influenced by Latin first and English now, that is one reason the French have been so vigilant in attempting to keep foreign influence from "tainting" their language, although it will prove to be a futile attempt.

Joe


 I was simply reacting to the statement above that said "I didn't find one quote of scripture in that article."

I also stated that they only cited from Ray's text.

 Initially, you also stated that there was some scripture quoted yet you didn't say anything more about the scripture quoted.

I am not a language scholar and I don't know whether your knowledge or the author's knowledge is any better or worse than mine. It makes a lot of sense to me to use every tool you can to find the etymology of the words used.  In my view,  common usage in other writings at the same period could be more compelling case for acceptance in that regard. That's also why I found the article interesting.  

I do know that it is important for me  to keep a healthy skepticism about whatever anyone  interprets as the truth.  I don't necessarily agree with the author on the whole but then I don't agree with a lot of things people write.  I just take them for what they are worth.

Does that help answer your question marks?

feat


Hello feat,

Not all of them but it is a start, this man from tektonics has taken it upon himself to attempt to demolish Ray's writings with clever sidetracking and supposition, again, "very little scripture" is used to refute Ray, actually I do not remember any from him.

Clever word games are his tool, for instance, can you see a difference between immortality and eternal? The tektonics guy attempts to blend them into one and the same, if you or I were to be given our new spiritual bodies today we would be given "immortality" only God is eternal, without beginning, without end. We (all creation) would always have a beginning.

I am not sure about "always having a healthy skepticism about whatever anyone interprets as the truth" as being a good road to growing in the Lord, through faith obtaining understanding, gaining the fruits of the spirit. Would you apply that to what Paul wrote or understood to be truth? Or any of the men guided by the Spirit who recorded God's Word? Do you have a healthy skepticism that Jesus walked the earth, had an earthly ministry, died for all of our sins and was resurrected?

I certainly would agree that we should "be as the Bereans" and check the witnesses, verify the scripture's quoted or referenced to make sure we are not being deceived or believing falsehoods. I had shown an example in a previous post about how some people cleverly change the order of words to promote their own ideology;

(Joe in bold)

LM, so true, here is just one example (I cut and pasted this from "The Kingdom" article).


“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.� – 1 Cor 15:22


The first question that must be asked is HOW… How did people become IN ADAM and how do people become IN CHRIST? It would seem obvious that ALL men are born in Adam via natural birth, but NOT all men are born in Christ. Does this contradict the text? Not in the least bit. The text is NOT saying all who are in Adam will be in Christ, but rather it is contrasting that all that were in Adam were under death, and thus all who are in Christ (which is not everyone) will be made alive.


See how the author changes the order of the scripture to change it's meaning?
The scripture does NOT read "all in Christ" will be made alive.

It reads; IN Christ all will be made alive.

Tricky but transparent.

Again, like Jonathon Edwards, little scripture, much supposition.

Joe



feat, I pray you don't take this the wrong way, my motivation is to reason together, gain understanding together.

Since I "stumbled" onto Ray and Mike's sites I am no longer looking to the outside physical, carnal world to verify what God has planned for us, their articles have shown me (through the Spirit) that the greatest miracles are taking place within me, you, and all that are called to Him. I had no clue as to what this was before, but displacing the beast within me with the Spirit of Christ has become my supreme goal, not waiting for a rapture or watching out for the European Union to produce a charismatic leader or any of the physical signs so many are looking for. Is, was & will be, within all of our lives, each generation.

This is one reason I feel so obligated to speak up when I perceive the principles of BT are being watered down or questioned, be it blatant or subtle.

Brother, I have no animosity toward you at all, I hope you take this in the spirit it is given.

Peace,

Joe
Title: Re: Stupid website
Post by: Harryfeat on April 09, 2006, 01:23:56 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver

Does that help answer your question marks?



Hello feat,

Not all of them but it is a start, this man from tektonics has taken it upon himself to attempt to demolish Ray's writings with clever sidetracking and supposition, again, "very little scripture" is used to refute Ray, actually I do not remember any from him.


What other questions do you have?


Clever word games are his tool, for instance, can you see a difference between immortality and eternal? The tektonics guy attempts to blend them into one and the same, if you or I were to be given our new spiritual bodies today we would be given "immortality" only God is eternal, without beginning, without end. We (all creation) would always have a beginning.

I am not sure about "always having a healthy skepticism about whatever anyone interprets as the truth" as being a good road to growing in the Lord, through faith obtaining understanding, gaining the fruits of the spirit. Would you apply that to what Paul wrote or understood to be truth? Or any of the men guided by the Spirit who recorded God's Word? Do you have a healthy skepticism that Jesus walked the earth, had an earthly ministry, died for all of our sins and was resurrected?


I certainly would agree that we should "be as the Bereans" and check the witnesses, verify the scripture's quoted or referenced to make sure we are not being deceived or believing falsehoods. I had shown an example in a previous post about how some people cleverly change the order of words to promote their own ideology;

I completely disagree with you that being skeptical of what men teach and say is an unhealthy road to spiritual truth.  If you blindly accept what men say then it is my opinion that you are probably mentally lazy and will end up in some sort of organized religious cult.  Maybe even a catholic.

If you agree with we should be as the bereans then you should also understand what I mean by healthy sketpticism.  I have no wish to blindly accept what someone tells me is the "truth" regardless of who it is.  I would ask you about how your faith was shaped before you found BT or even began to realize what a load of crap you got from organized religion.  If you had maintained a berean attitude all along, perhaps what you found at BT would not have been such a dramatic change for you.

There is not much new at BT that the early Christian didn't believe. Check it out.



feat, I pray you don't take this the wrong way, my motivation is to reason together, gain understanding together.

I don't think I took your original post the wrong way.  If your aim was gaining an understanding together then your initial  post might not have had all the markings of a lecture.

Since I "stumbled" onto Ray and Mike's sites I am no longer looking to the outside physical, carnal world to verify what God has planned for us, their articles have shown me (through the Spirit) that the greatest miracles are taking place within me, you, and all that are called to Him. I had no clue as to what this was before, but displacing the beast within me with the Spirit of Christ has become my supreme goal, not waiting for a rapture or watching out for the European Union to produce a charismatic leader or any of the physical signs so many are looking for. Is, was & will be, within all of our lives, each generation.

This is one reason I feel so obligated to speak up when I perceive the principles of BT are being watered down or questioned, be it blatant or subtle.

I think its is appropriate to speak out.  It is the manner that causes concern.

Brother, I have no animosity toward you at all, I hope you take this in the spirit it is given.

I have a lot to learn and probably need to be more careful about how I state things.  I appreciate your effort to educate me.  I can only assume that the your efforts were in the spirit of brotherly love.

Peace,

Joe


If you have anything else you wish to point out, I would very much appreciate it.



feat
Title: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 09, 2006, 04:10:11 PM
Does that help answer your question marks?


Hello feat,

Not all of them but it is a start, this man from tektonics has taken it upon himself to attempt to demolish Ray's writings with clever sidetracking and supposition, again, "very little scripture" is used to refute Ray, actually I do not remember any from him.


What other questions do you have?


Clever word games are his tool, for instance, can you see a difference between immortality and eternal? The tektonics guy attempts to blend them into one and the same, if you or I were to be given our new spiritual bodies today we would be given "immortality" only God is eternal, without beginning, without end. We (all creation) would always have a beginning.

I am not sure about "always having a healthy skepticism about whatever anyone interprets as the truth" as being a good road to growing in the Lord, through faith obtaining understanding, gaining the fruits of the spirit. Would you apply that to what Paul wrote or understood to be truth? Or any of the men guided by the Spirit who recorded God's Word? Do you have a healthy skepticism that Jesus walked the earth, had an earthly ministry, died for all of our sins and was resurrected?

You never answered this question.


I certainly would agree that we should "be as the Bereans" and check the witnesses, verify the scripture's quoted or referenced to make sure we are not being deceived or believing falsehoods. I had shown an example in a previous post about how some people cleverly change the order of words to promote their own ideology;

I completely disagree with you that being skeptical of what men teach and say is an unhealthy road to spiritual truth. If you blindly accept what men say then it is my opinion that you are probably mentally lazy and will end up in some sort of organized religious cult. Maybe even a catholic.

Where exactly did I say to "blindly accept what men say"? Here we go with the "cult" business thrown in for good measure.


If you agree with we should be as the bereans then you should also understand what I mean by healthy sketpticism. I have no wish to blindly accept what someone tells me is the "truth" regardless of who it is. I would ask you about how your faith was shaped before you found BT or even began to realize what a load of crap you got from organized religion. If you had maintained a berean attitude all along, perhaps what you found at BT would not have been such a dramatic change for you.


Did I not say we should be as the Bereans? Again, I never said blindly follow anyone. The progression of my faith is documented in the Testimony section of the forum.

There is not much new at BT that the early Christian didn't believe. Check it out.

I agree emphatically that we should shed the man made add ons to the faith, I may be considered ancient by some but I was not around in the first century, it took BT (through the Spirit) to open my eyes.

feat, I pray you don't take this the wrong way, my motivation is to reason together, gain understanding together.

I don't think I took your original post the wrong way. If your aim was gaining an understanding together then your initial post might not have had all the markings of a lecture.



My original post was a paragraph in response to your statement about "certainly no lack of scripture" how does that qualify as a lecture?


Since I "stumbled" onto Ray and Mike's sites I am no longer looking to the outside physical, carnal world to verify what God has planned for us, their articles have shown me (through the Spirit) that the greatest miracles are taking place within me, you, and all that are called to Him. I had no clue as to what this was before, but displacing the beast within me with the Spirit of Christ has become my supreme goal, not waiting for a rapture or watching out for the European Union to produce a charismatic leader or any of the physical signs so many are looking for. Is, was & will be, within all of our lives, each generation.

This is one reason I feel so obligated to speak up when I perceive the principles of BT are being watered down or questioned, be it blatant or subtle.

I think its is appropriate to speak out. It is the manner that causes concern.


Please be specific, what is the "manner" you speak of?

Brother, I have no animosity toward you at all, I hope you take this in the spirit it is given.

I have a lot to learn and probably need to be more careful about how I state things. I appreciate your effort to educate me. I can only assume that the your efforts were in the spirit of brotherly love.

We all need to be careful, myself included maybe especially. The written word is a two dimensional form of communication, the facial expressions, body language and tone of voice are all missing and sometimes words on paper can take on a more aggressive tone than intended.

Peace,
Joe


If you have anything else you wish to point out, I would very much appreciate it.

Please feel free to do the same with me, I learn from everyone. Thank you.

Joe


feat
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Gill on April 09, 2006, 04:35:53 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver


We all need to be careful, myself included maybe especially. The written word is a two dimensional form of communication, the facial expressions, body language and tone of voice are all missing and sometimes words on paper can take on a more aggressive tone than intended.

Peace,
Joe


So true ~ i've had to learn this the hard way.  These days, if in doubt ...i hit delete.
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 09, 2006, 04:54:23 PM
Quote
# As a preterist I believe Satan is now bound and not doing anything.


when i found that statement on the the guys website i immediately thought

why would i waste another second here ?

anyone who believes Satan is not doing anything at the moment obviously hasn't been getting out much LOL!

anyways sooner or later every knee will bow

i'm just trying to fall into compliance with the plan of God to get my knee and tongue into the plan sooner rather than later God willing.

f
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Harryfeat on April 09, 2006, 05:47:51 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver
Does that help answer your question marks?


Hello feat,

Not all of them but it is a start, this man from tektonics has taken it upon himself to attempt to demolish Ray's writings with clever sidetracking and supposition, again, "very little scripture" is used to refute Ray, actually I do not remember any from him.


What other questions do you have?


Clever word games are his tool, for instance, can you see a difference between immortality and eternal? The tektonics guy attempts to blend them into one and the same, if you or I were to be given our new spiritual bodies today we would be given "immortality" only God is eternal, without beginning, without end. We (all creation) would always have a beginning.

I am not sure about "always having a healthy skepticism about whatever anyone interprets as the truth" as being a good road to growing in the Lord, through faith obtaining understanding, gaining the fruits of the spirit. Would you apply that to what Paul wrote or understood to be truth? Or any of the men guided by the Spirit who recorded God's Word? Do you have a healthy skepticism that Jesus walked the earth, had an earthly ministry, died for all of our sins and was resurrected?

You never answered this question. I answered this below in blue. I don't accept any man's theories without a healthy skepticism.  If you are asking me if I believe in scripture then that is a whole other matter.  But we are not talking about scripture here. We are talking about what men say and how they interpret scripture.  At least I thought that was what this thread was all about


I certainly would agree that we should "be as the Bereans" and check the witnesses, verify the scripture's quoted or referenced to make sure we are not being deceived or believing falsehoods. I had shown an example in a previous post about how some people cleverly change the order of words to promote their own ideology;

I completely disagree with you that being skeptical of what men teach and say is an unhealthy road to spiritual truth. If you blindly accept what men say then it is my opinion that you are probably mentally lazy and will end up in some sort of organized religious cult. Maybe even a catholic.

Where exactly did I say to "blindly accept what men say"?  [/b]You didn't and I didn't say you did.  I started my analogy with the word "IF" and used it to make and emphasize my point.  

Here we go with the "cult" business thrown in for good measure.
What's that supposed to mean? The point of your sarcasm escapes me.  How many have been confused and joined cults for lack of critical judgement and following without being skeptical of the source. The reality of it is frightening to me.


If you agree with we should be as the bereans then you should also understand what I mean by healthy sketpticism. I have no wish to blindly accept what someone tells me is the "truth" regardless of who it is. I would ask you about how your faith was shaped before you found BT or even began to realize what a load of crap you got from organized religion. If you had maintained a berean attitude all along, perhaps what you found at BT would not have been such a dramatic change for you.


Did I not say we should be as the Bereans? Again, I never said blindly follow anyone. The progression of my faith is documented in the Testimony section of the forum.

There is not much new at BT that the early Christian didn't believe. Check it out.

I agree emphatically that we should shed the man made add ons to the faith, I may be considered ancient by some but I was not around in the first century, it took BT (through the Spirit) to open my eyes. I wasn't around then either but it didn't prevent from studying history.  

feat, I pray you don't take this the wrong way, my motivation is to reason together, gain understanding together.

I don't think I took your original post the wrong way. If your aim was gaining an understanding together then your initial post might not have had all the markings of a lecture.



My original post was a paragraph in response to your statement about "certainly no lack of scripture" how does that qualify as a lecture? I didn't say it was a lecture but had the markings of one.  quote "all languages have been influenced by latin...." sounds like the beginnings of a lecture to me.  Is is also  my opinion that the orientals would disagree with your statement, even so.


Since I "stumbled" onto Ray and Mike's sites I am no longer looking to the outside physical, carnal world to verify what God has planned for us, their articles have shown me (through the Spirit) that the greatest miracles are taking place within me, you, and all that are called to Him. I had no clue as to what this was before, but displacing the beast within me with the Spirit of Christ has become my supreme goal, not waiting for a rapture or watching out for the European Union to produce a charismatic leader or any of the physical signs so many are looking for. Is, was & will be, within all of our lives, each generation.

This is one reason I feel so obligated to speak up when I perceive the principles of BT are being watered down or questioned, be it blatant or subtle.

I think its is appropriate to speak out. It is the manner that causes concern.


Please be specific, what is the "manner" you speak of? Joe, I am not a child and don't need to be spoken down to.  I understand that the purpose of the arcticle was to refute.  I never said I thought any of it was accurate.  Tell me what part of my post was inaccurate or in any way negative.  You took issue with a statement about there being scripture quoted but said the same thing yourself before I did.  You also left off the last half of the thought which was that it was lifted from Ray.  If you reread all the posts before mine you will see what I am talking about.

That is what I mean by  manner  what I am speaking of in this case.  


Brother, I have no animosity toward you at all, I hope you take this in the spirit it is given.

I have a lot to learn and probably need to be more careful about how I state things. I appreciate your effort to educate me. I can only assume that the your efforts were in the spirit of brotherly love.

We all need to be careful, myself included maybe especially. The written word is a two dimensional form of communication, the facial expressions, body language and tone of voice are all missing and sometimes words on paper can take on a more aggressive tone than intended.

Peace,
Joe


If you have anything else you wish to point out, I would very much appreciate it.

Please feel free to do the same with me, I learn from everyone. Thank you.

I have given my opinion on a few things but I would like to point out that I have no hidden agendas, I am not here to preach, teach or proselytize. I am here to learn.  I have already disclosed my beliefs in a response to someone named Sorin on another thread which you read so I don't plan on repeating it here.  I have  tried to be respectful  follow the rules and yet I feel like I have to tiptoe through a mine field. I find that the most disconcerting





Joe


feat
Title: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 09, 2006, 06:51:11 PM
I agree emphatically that we should shed the man made add ons to the faith, I may be considered ancient by some but I was not around in the first century, it took BT (through the Spirit) to open my eyes. I wasn't around then either but it didn't prevent from studying history.

LOL

Actually, I was never prevented from studying history, I just studied it with a healthy skepticism.


My original post was a paragraph in response to your statement about "certainly no lack of scripture" how does that qualify as a lecture? I didn't say it was a lecture but had the markings of one. quote "all languages have been influenced by latin...." sounds like the beginnings of a lecture to me. Is is also my opinion that the orientals would disagree with your statement, even so.


Main Entry: 1eter·nali-'t&r-n &l
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n & l
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? -- Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)>
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL <some eternal villain ... devised this slander -- Shakespeare>
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS <eternal verities>
- eter·nal·izei-'t&r-n&l-"īz /-n & l-"īz/ transitive verb
- eter·nal·lyi-'t&r-n&l-e /-n & l-e/ adverb
- eter·nal·ness noun

See the route this word took?  


Also, Chinese (Hong Kong speaks English as a first language) Korean, Japanese, Viet Namese, ect. have been VERY influenced by English (Latin by extension as Latin has heavily influenced English) as they integrate into the Western economy, there is no doubt that their languages have incorporated English into the vernacular.

I attached this paper (from the Cambridge Review) to give more detail on how English has influenced Oriental language (among others) throughout the world. It is an interesting read.


http://www.zuckermann.org/english.pdf

Lighten up Feat, I am not your enemy, I originally only asked you to clarify a statement you made.

Peace Brother!

Joe
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Harryfeat on April 09, 2006, 07:13:04 PM
Quote from: hillsbororiver


Lighten up Feat, I am not your enemy, I originally only asked you to clarify a statement you made.

Peace Brother!

Joe


If only that were the case. If you had said "feat please clarify your statement, the results would have been much different.  I was going  to ask you to lighten up but thought it would be disrespectful to a moderator.

I don't consider you the enemy but had the distinct feeling that you felt that I was.  I agree with you on the two dimensionality of print and the need to be careful in our wording.  Likewise a more careful reading of what is written would also prevent some missunderstanding.

I am through with this thread.  If you have anything else to say then pm me.

blessings to you and yours,
feat
Title: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 09, 2006, 07:40:31 PM
Feat, you are right. I need to remember that people here only know me through what I write, and the newer members know very little. At work we use e-mail to communicate constantly and sometimes the communications are short and to the point, without knowing the person it very well could be perceived as arrogant or harsh.

I promise to be more cognizant of this in the future and I thank you for helping me to realize what I need to do and how I may be perceived.

Sincerely,

Joe
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Dan on April 12, 2006, 01:36:32 PM
1Co 1:11  For concerning you, my brothers, it was shown to me by those of Chloe that there are strifes among you.
1Co 1:12  But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Has Christ been divided?
Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14  I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15  that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.
1Co 1:16  And I also baptized the house of Stephanas. For the rest, I do not know if I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to announce the gospel, not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect.
1Co 1:18  For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19  For it has been written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the understanding ones." Isa. 29:14



Remember that we are not of BT, we are not of universalism.

We are of Christ, and the Spirit uses us as tools.(I dont know , but this is what 'Feat' might have meant by healthy skepticism;
not following any person or persons.



 
Quote
it took BT (through the Spirit) to open my eyes.



this statement(to me) says BT is using the Spirit to open my eyes.


I say the Spirit uses BT to open my eyes.
(It is a big difference, because in Word or deed we put the Spirit/Christ first.)


I dont think Joe believes that BT is the first in order but all we have are words that are written to go by.(and others might misunderstand)

And sometimes you can tell what a person believes by what they write.


When I first came to Rays site I received confirmation of many things that I was already believing and wondered if there was anybody else who believed the same.

It was the Spirit who stripped me of prior beliefs and the Spirit who led me to BT. BT was another tool and a good one.


If I believe BT is what changed me, then I have become a "follower of BT"

I hope this comes across the way I intend it, (not harsh) and it makes sense to some, because I see many posts of the, "I am of BT" "I am of universalist"  type.
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Falconn003 on April 12, 2006, 02:25:14 PM
OH MAN.......this guy again and his jail house gosple..

This fool is so messed up he does not know who he is at times.

James Patrick Holding is a pseudonym used by Robert Turkel

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/4/024jph.html

People just have no shame.

Rodger
Title: again!
Post by: jennie on April 12, 2006, 03:20:08 PM
I don't understand any of this. If it is something that will help me grow in the Lord someone help me understand but if it is more of a dispute I don't need to know more. Thanks ya'll!
Title: Re: again!
Post by: rvhill on April 12, 2006, 05:03:51 PM
Quote from: jennie
I don't understand any of this. If it is something that will help me grow in the Lord someone help me understand but if it is more of a dispute I don't need to know more. Thanks ya'll!

I agree with Jennie
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Falconn003 on April 12, 2006, 07:30:04 PM
Jennie, rvhill

Read the link i posted above, this guy gospled to the convicts and has gotten a bigger head on him then most TBN memebers.

Any how he has tried to rebutt many,,many  pepoel yet when they question his rebuttals he simply ignores the questions or changes the topic.

This guy is a big joke of vanity for himself and nothing more, time wasted on this individual is better spent watching paint dry or snails mate.  :wink:


Rodger
Title: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 12, 2006, 07:43:56 PM
Quote from: Dan
1Co 1:11  For concerning you, my brothers, it was shown to me by those of Chloe that there are strifes among you.
1Co 1:12  But I say this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Has Christ been divided?
Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14  I give thanks to God that I did not baptize any one of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15  that not anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.
1Co 1:16  And I also baptized the house of Stephanas. For the rest, I do not know if I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to announce the gospel, not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect.
1Co 1:18  For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19  For it has been written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the understanding ones." Isa. 29:14



Remember that we are not of BT, we are not of universalism.

We are of Christ, and the Spirit uses us as tools.(I dont know , but this is what 'Feat' might have meant by healthy skepticism;
not following any person or persons.



 
Quote
it took BT (through the Spirit) to open my eyes.



this statement(to me) says BT is using the Spirit to open my eyes.


I say the Spirit uses BT to open my eyes.
(It is a big difference, because in Word or deed we put the Spirit/Christ first.)


I dont think Joe believes that BT is the first in order but all we have are words that are written to go by.(and others might misunderstand)

And sometimes you can tell what a person believes by what they write.


When I first came to Rays site I received confirmation of many things that I was already believing and wondered if there was anybody else who believed the same.

It was the Spirit who stripped me of prior beliefs and the Spirit who led me to BT. BT was another tool and a good one.


If I believe BT is what changed me, then I have become a "follower of BT"

I hope this comes across the way I intend it, (not harsh) and it makes sense to some, because I see many posts of the, "I am of BT" "I am of universalist"  type.


Hello Dan,

It is understandable how you or someone else might interpret what I wrote as me proclaiming my allegiance to BT, and that it was BT which opened my eyes to spiritual things.

No, when I wrote "it took BT (through the Spirit) to open my eyes," I had hoped it would be understood that through the Spirit leading me to BT my spiritual eyes were opened.

I have read many people say that Ray had confirmed what they already knew through personal study but I cannot say that myself, far from it. My personal journey (documented in the Testimony section of the forum) had me going through a few churches, reading scores of "christian" books and studying the bible on my own, weeks, months, sometimes years lapsed in between attempts to gain understanding. I was looking outward, searching for "signs and wonders" becoming only confused in the    process.


I had first prayed for understanding of God's purpose for me and for the world at the age of 17 after a series of devestating experiences in my young life. He certainly put me on an incredible journey, through the next 34 years, good jobs, bad jobs, huge losses unbelievable gains, living inside and outside the law, being shot at, best friend shot and killed, being an unbending strong willed "cowboy" who would do most anything for a buck and a thrill. Being blessed with a big strong body enhanced by lifting weights even when everything else I did (drinking,drugs, etc.) was very unhealthy, especially spiritually and mentally. I was a bully an enforcer bulldozing my way through life until my mid thirties when the Lord busted this boy down to dust. I had to start all over, humbled, broken and yet optimistic that good things were on the horizen, why was I optimistic? I did not know then but the optimism was the Spirit beginning His work in me.

He has lead me from menial work (the only job anyone was willing to chance with me at the time) to a position I never dreamt possible. I went from mutually bad relationships & marriage to a loving, loyal wife, and we have been blessed beyond belief, it is only through retrospect that I am able to see the steps He guided me through to get to where I am now.

With my personal and professional life better than I ever thought possible there was still something missing, there was a big hole in my spirit a void I could not pinpoint, I KNEW there was more to this life than "things" and I would become frustrated because I could not seem to get whole, to fill the void.

The night I found BT is a night I will never forget, my wife thought I was losing my mind with all the noise coming from my upstairs home office, the shouts of YES! AMAZING! UNBELIEVABLE! AMEN! were coming out with regularity the next 8 hours as I digested verses and spiritual truths like never before, I learned more in 8 hours than in the previous 34 years. Yes, I was familiar with many verses and chapters some committed to memory but never had it become so crystal clear.

In the following months I have continued to learn incredible things and my family and friends have seen remarkable differences in me, my disposition and patience. The biggest thing I can say I learned from Ray and Mike's papers is the Lord working in me and how He is, was & will be with all mankind.

Dan, I did not mean for this to become such a long piece but I wanted to fill in a few gaps in my testimony and I wanted to underscore how I know the Spirit was working in me taking me through the wilderness, holding my hand through some incredible circumstances for decades before I had a clue as to where it was all leading.

So unlike many of you who were devoted church members until your personal study convinced you to come out of her, when I left the church totally disillusioned at around 20 years old and I went into the underbelly of the world looking for thrills and "easy money" not realizing at all that this was my path to Him.

Hopefully this may have cleared up where I am coming from and I apologize for using so many words to do it.

Joe
Title: Stupid website
Post by: rvhill on April 12, 2006, 07:46:38 PM
Quote from: Falconn003
Jennie, rvhill

Read the link i posted above, this guy gospled to the convicts and has gotten a bigger head on him then most TBN memebers.

Any how he has tried to rebutt many,,many  pepoel yet when they question his rebuttals he simply ignores the questions or changes the topic.

This guy is a big joke of vanity for himself and nothing more, time wasted on this individual is better spent watching paitn dry or snails mate.  :wink:


Rodger


2 Timothy 2:23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.


Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.


I have not read it, but I probable know what it will say. Why wast time will a fool. Does it glorify God to wast your time with fools?
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Falconn003 on April 12, 2006, 07:54:17 PM
rvhill

Unfortunatly i did read a little and like a bad rash it took a long time to get that out of my system.

Hey........that guy should interview this nut on his religion.....now that would amaze some along with that davinci code, and gosple of judas.  then if you still got time grab a bag of popcorn and go rent passion of christ.  :wink:


Rodger
Title: Stupid website
Post by: hillsbororiver on April 12, 2006, 08:01:58 PM
Maybe I posted my previous post in the wrong section of the forum as it basically fills in some of the gaps from the time I left "the church system" until I was dragged to BT.

Joe
Title: Stupid website
Post by: Falconn003 on April 12, 2006, 08:04:50 PM
Joe

i dont see a problem with it, in fact why not just double post as an addemdum to your test, as it was needed here on this thread for clarification, your post fit the need indeed.


Rodger
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 12, 2006, 08:05:09 PM
i love all Ray's stuff on bt and i hate heresy

does that mean i am saying "i am of bt" of course not

i try to love heretics by remaining faithful to the Truth and after two admonitions i reject heretics as scipture commands.

Tit 3:10  A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11  Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

i treat others the way i would like to be treated, if you find heresy in anything i post and i wont admit to it and repent after two admonitions i expect to be rejected.

f
Title: Stupid website
Post by: rvhill on April 12, 2006, 08:06:42 PM
Some here need to study and take to heart.

2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only gold and silver utensils, but wooden and earthenware also, and some indeed for honor, yet some for dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 If, then, anyone should ever be purging himself from these, he will be a utensil for honor, hallowed, and useful to the Owner, made ready for every good act.
2Ti 2:22 Now youthful desires flee: yet pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with all who are invoking the Lord out of a clean heart.
2Ti 2:23 Now stupid and crude questionings refuse, being aware that they are generating fightings.
2Ti 2:24 Now a slave of the Lord must not be fighting, but be gentle toward all, apt to teach, bearing with evil,
2Ti 2:25 with meekness training those who are antagonizing, seeing whether God may be giving them repentance to come into a realization of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they will be sobering up out of the trap of the Adversary, having been caught alive by him, for that one's will.

I not trying to belittle any one here, but some here are more carnal then is good for them.

Even though Righteous Judge spirit was not in the right place and he had his own agenda, he did have in part a valuate point. Is it Godly to mock and belittle others. Is this what Paul is telling us in the above verse?

What about:

Mat 7:3 "Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering?
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 12, 2006, 08:34:23 PM
/ertsky adopts accent

rvhill

are you talkin' to me ? ;)

which interpreted means is that last post directed at me rvhill?

if it is please be man enough to name names

please be sincere enough to put yourself on the line for spiritual judgement

or shall we all hide behind vaguaries and innuendo ?

f
Title: Stupid website
Post by: rvhill on April 12, 2006, 08:49:33 PM
Quote from: ertsky
/ertsky adopts accent

rvhill

are you talkin' to me ? ;)

which interpreted means is that last post directed at me rvhill?

if it is please be man enough to name names

please be sincere enough to put yourself on the line for spiritual judgement

or shall we all hide behind vaguaries and innuendo ?

f




Not at you but others who bring up these kind of post. Unless you feel that something I said applies to something you do or think. In which case someone other then myself may be trying to tell you some thing.

Jennie's original post still have some validity.
Quote
I don't understand any of this. If it is something that will help me grow in the Lord someone help me understand but if it is more of a dispute I don't need to know more. Thanks ya'll!
how do these types of thread profit us?
Title: Stupid website
Post by: ertsky on April 12, 2006, 08:57:34 PM
ah no worries rvhill

i've been copping a lot of flak for my terse style lately so a siege mentality had been trying to set in

i apologise to you for misjudging your intent, after all

who am i to judge another mans servant

f