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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: david1611kjv on February 07, 2012, 12:38:24 PM
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Hi guys, i am having some difficulty understanding the extent of what choice and will we have.......my question is; If Christ knew exactly what would happen in the case of Peter denying Him 3times and the cock crowing 3times, then how can we possibly have any level of freedom of choice or will when such specific things are prophesied in scripture?...lots of universalists give a case for free will/choice/moral agency or whatever you want to call it, im confused by this..any insights would be greatly appreciated on this passage..:¬)
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Hi Dave,
This may not be the answer you were hoping for, but I can only encourage you to take the time to read and study the entire Lake of Fire series on "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed" which was presented by Ray in four parts:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
Ray goes into such detail on this subject matter that your understanding should be greatly increased. Happy reading! :)
René
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Hi Dave,
Besides the 4 parts of the Lake of Fire series on "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed" there are many emails where Ray briefly explains many things there. Here is a llink to the entire list http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html, there is a category on free will there too. Here are a few that might apply to your question.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1731.0.html ---------
Virtually all people who believe in "free will," do not even know it it is! How can one be sure that he has something that he doesn't even know what it is? Free will is not the ability to make a choice. Choice has absolutely nothing to do with "free will." "FREE Choice" has to do with "free will," but there is not such thing as "free choice" EITHER!
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html ---------------
You cannot discuss or even have an opinion on "free will" unless or until you know what it is. Not having fee will or free choice does not mean that you do not HAVE a will or choices. Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING. We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN. The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own. It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html -------------
There are HUNDREDS of places in the Scriptures which speak of doing something, making a decision, choosing between two things, etc. Not ONE of them has anything to do with "free" will. You need to read the first couple of pages of the first of my four-part series on the Free Will Myth. I answer it in great detail after I first define what is meant by "free will" or "free choice.' Everyone has the bility to make choice, but that choice is based on SOME CAUSE, and that cause is what renders the choice to be not free.
God forsaw EVERYTHING in His creation BEFORE the creation. Therefore, nothing is "free" to go contrary to what God already knows MUST AND WILL BE! "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). We must first believe the Scriptures before e will be able to understand the Scriptures.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6100.0.html -------------
Yes, this is God's creation, God's Universe. He made it and all that in it is. He also made humanity, and He made them spiritual weak, not spiritually strong, so when confronted with a temptation to SIN, humanity SINS. He sins VOLUNTARILY FROM HIS PERVERTED HEART. No one, not even God FORCES HIM TO SIN AGAINST HIS WILL. It is your WILL TO SIN whether you feel good or bad about it or the results. Man has a will, this has never been denied. But.......BUT, man's will is not free from causality. The lust of the flesh and the lest of the eyes and the pride of life are SIN (I John 2:15-16). Yet men DESIRE AND WILL from the HEART to do these sinful things. For this he must be JUDGED. It matter not whether he could have avoided the circumstances and lust that caused him to sin. The fact is that he did si n, and he desired to sin FROM HIS HEART. This is the thing that must be CHANGED--his corrupt heart. And it is not a sin on God's part for making humanity so spiritually weak that they would sin and also DESIRE FROM THEIR HEART to sin. It is a way and means to a greater good. God is "makING humanity in HIS SPIRITUAL IMAGE, and the sins and foolishness of humanity are a part of the means to that grant design and goal.
True, most of humanity faults God for this grand plan and purpose, but that attitude will also be judged and corrected in time.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6295.0.html -----------------
What a crock!
You quote him as saying, "But though man is not a free agent, his will is free; he has the full power of choice and volition."
So man is not the agent or representative of HIS OWN WILL? But "his will is FREE?" "He has the FULL POWER [what pray tell is that phrase "full power" supposed to mean?] "...and [full power of] volition," but he just can do, perform, or carry out anything that he wills through his "full power?" What pray tell good is such a totally RESTRICTED "full power of the will?" So God is completely and totally sovereign according to this guy, but man can "think" or "will" anything he desires that is contrary to the sovereignty of God?
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
But all humanity had "FULL POWER" over his thoughts, volition and will, did he? So man CAN by the use of his 'FULL POWER VOLITION" think good thoughts if he so desires, but no man has ever so desired. Is that the truth of the Scriptures. Was there not one human being among them that could FREE WILL himself to NOT HAVE "EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart to be ONLY evil CONTINUALLY?"
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked [Hebrew, 'exceedingly WEAK']: who can know it?
Now then if the heart is filled with "EVIL thoughts," and the heart is "EXCEEDINGLY weak," where pray tell does this "FULL POWER OF THE WILL AND VOLITION" come into play according to the Scriptures?
As I said: "What a CROCK!"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7895.0.html -----------------
Look, if God is sovereign, and if God forknows everything (WHICH HE DOES), then there is no such thing as a human free will that can THWART what God knows must and will be. God's foreknowledge of ALL things proves man has NO FREE WILL. And this, I assure you Thomas, is not "my doctrine." I did not come up with it. I read it in the Scriptures, and I have proven it in life, and in science.
We do have a will, but it is not "FREE" to original anything that does not have a cause. Most people who argue that we have free will have not a clue as to what free will is. "Free will" is not "will." "Free choice" is not "choice." All of our choices have a cause, even if we don't know what it was, therefore no choice that is made is "free" to not have been made. Why are all of these commandments and instruction for man to follow in the Scriptures if man DOES HAVE A FREE WILL? The penalties for not keeping commandments is a CAUSE for keeping it. Something that "CAUSES" you to keep a commandment, is NOT "FREE" TO NOT KEEP IT. I know, it takes more than a few hundred hours of meditation to understand it properly.
God be with you, Ray
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then how can we possibly have any level of freedom of choice or will ...?
listen to your self.
The answer is:
We do not have ANY possibly level of FREEDOM of choice or will. (a 'freedom' of will, is a will 'free' of CAUSE, that is lawLESS)
If you are going to start telling that they are some things with NO cause, the reason for you to think that is because you can't perceive the causes.
''All kinds of chance encounters-- with particular people, information or circumstances-- have marked (CAUSED) turning points in many individual's lives, whether toward fulfillment or ruin.
None of these things is equal or can be made equal. It is not a "social" injustice because it is beyond the power of society.'' --unknown
Look around you, we are all creatures of habit, with traditions and routines, and when we break them, that doesn't mean that we chose something 'freely', all we did was to start reprogramming our selves on what could become a different habit or routine.
What a low kick for the human ego...
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You picked my absolute favorite example in Scripture of why man does not have a 'free-will'. Keep that one in your mind as you read the above links. I think it will be well worth doing. Hang in there.
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Hi guys, i am having some difficulty understanding the extent of what choice and will we have.......my question is; If Christ knew exactly what would happen in the case of Peter denying Him 3times and the cock crowing 3times, then how can we possibly have any level of freedom of choice or will when such specific things are prophesied in scripture?...lots of universalists give a case for free will/choice/moral agency or whatever you want to call it, im confused by this..any insights would be greatly appreciated on this passage..:¬)
Hi, David
What's their beef?
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Hi David,
It is a humbling experience to say the least when we began to learn some of these truths. Especially when we are confronted with one like this one you bring up. It's a biggie! For me it comes down to this. God is sovereign. Nothing and nobody can negate the sovereignty of God to any degree in any shape form or fashion. Not even the opinions of many Universalists.
As far as I know, nobody here claims that name tag and for good reason. None of us want to be associated with the opinions of that gang or any other one. Even though Ray's beliefs and teaching is similar to what some universal groups believe there are always contradictions between what they teach and what the truth is like the example you bring up here.
The Myth of Free Will four part series totally destroys any chance of free moral agency or the likes of it. BUT, having it all spelled out for us in the LOF series and believing it doesn't prevent times of struggle and even doubt. It's a process. I reckon as long as we are in these carnal flesh bags on this side of glory, we are gonna have area's of the truth that each of us have difficulties with.
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Hi David
Maturity in Spirit, will determine our choices. It is the Spirit, that determines our maturity.
Arc
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I spent 36 year choosing to run like a mad man away from what God wanted me to do. During that time he used me anyway to do his work and that just made me more determined to choose to stay away from him and anyone wanting to tell me about his plan. I got saved when I was 5 and then I got abused at a Christian school.
Fir a long time I kept choosing to deny myself, to deny the special creature God made me and it brought me nothing but inner turmoil and despair.
Last summer I thought I was dying, well actually I was hoping I was dying. I even called out to God to just kill me and get it over with. Then I begged him to make me his servant. I chose to become the servant the Lord always meant for me to be. You have a choice, but there are consequences for trying to go it alone. When you get real humble and you beg God down on your hands and knees with tears flowing like rain and you can barely speak though your own wailing, you make a choice and every day after that you keeping making a choice, His way or the hard way. His way ain't easy but it is so much more rewarding.
I have free will to listen and do as I am told or face the consequences and still be put in the same situations. There is a choice, just not the one you think.
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I have free will to listen and do as I am told or face the consequences and still be put in the same situations. There is a choice, just not the one you think.
Making choices and having a free will are not one in the same. We all have the ability to make choices, but not a free choice, as in free of any and all outside influence and circumstances. See the articles on the myth of free will on the main site (http://bible-truths.com).
Marques
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I am not interested in myth. Just truth. In truth I made a choice to give my will over to HIM. I gave up my free will when I asked GOD to make me his servant, so that I may better serve his will, not mine. I made a choice to give up my free will. Since making that choice, I have the same choice everything, Gods way or well I think we all know.
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I am not interested in myth. Just truth. In truth I made a choice to give my will over to HIM. I gave up my free will when I asked GOD to make me his servant, so that I may better serve his will, not mine. I made a choice to give up my free will. Since making that choice, I have the same choice everything, Gods way or well I think we all know.
but that's the the thing, choices and free will are not the same thing. Choices are based on something, free will says you make choices not determined by anything which is impossible. Free will says nothing caused you to make that choice but something always causes your choices. They came from somewhere. Furthermore how can free will exist if God gave you the ability in the first place? Its all a contradiction you see. You have will that CHOSE to give to him but that will was not free.
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I never said will was free. If I will myself away from God there is a price because he chose me as his child, so I hear his call and I come to him through prayer and study of the bible so that I may better serve his will, because I choose to do so. My will to do what I want leads to evil every time. It forces me to pay prices I don;t want to remember. Will is not free. It costs and if you want to pay the price, the choice is yours to make. The choice is free, but everything else has a price. His will includes a price already paid by Christ, my will goes straight to oblivion.
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I am not interested in myth. Just truth. In truth I made a choice to give my will over to HIM. I gave up my free will when I asked GOD to make me his servant, so that I may better serve his will, not mine. I made a choice to give up my free will. Since making that choice, I have the same choice everything, Gods way or well I think we all know.
There sure is alot of "I's" in that statement. Did God do anything? Doesn't seem like there is much room for Him.
Craig
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Who do you think guided me here? But before he could lead I had to follow.
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jccarterjr said,
"Gods way or well I think we all know."
Or what? I don't know?
What other ways are there besides God's way?
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The last time I checked if you are not with God you are against him and that would bring in Lucifer. I don't like to talk about him, I would rather focus o the glory and love of the almighty.
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Who is Lucifer?
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Craig
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Exactly. I have been saying for a while now that if Satan walked up to me I would give him a big hug and tell him I love him, because that's what Christ commands that we love even our enemy as we love ourselves. I just didn't need Ray to tell me, I thought God did a good job of that in the bible. You just have to see the truth for yourself.
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Jim Carter is a friend of mine.
Jim, I didn't think you show up. What a surprise! Feel free to ask any questions, okay? :)
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just like when my momma (who knows me like the back of her hand) knew ahead of time what i would choose to do in any given situation when i was a kid, BUT, it was me making that wrong/right choice. i had the ability to make my own choices, even though momma always knew which choice i would make.
ok, maybe not exactly the same scenario, but it makes sense to me.
claudia
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The last time I checked if you are not with God you are against him and that would bring in Lucifer. I don't like to talk about him, I would rather focus o the glory and love of the almighty.
jccarterjr, welcome to BT.
Lucifer is not Satan. I think you may have been referring to the devil but Lucifer isn't anybody but Ray takes ole Lucy Lou lucifer and busts it down to nothing more than a howl. Happy reading!
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I can see the truth of these two verses in Psalms 37:23-24 as a reality during the time Jesus spoke to Peter about him denying him three times.
Psalms 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.
A couple more verses come to mind also.
Ecclesiastes 8: 6-7 Because to every purpose there is time and judgement, therefore the misery of man is great upon him. For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?
Joel
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Hi guys, i am having some difficulty understanding the extent of what choice and will we have.......my question is; If Christ knew exactly what would happen in the case of Peter denying Him 3times and the cock crowing 3times, then how can we possibly have any level of freedom of choice or will when such specific things are prophesied in scripture?...lots of universalists give a case for free will/choice/moral agency or whatever you want to call it, im confused by this..any insights would be greatly appreciated on this passage..:¬)
Hi David,
Everyone answering this Thread with their Posts did a more than adequate Job in explaining the fact that We don't possess Free Will or Free Choice. There's one aspect of this Truth that I will share with you that was a CAUSE or influence in helping Me to comprehend and accept this Truth aside from all the other material presented by Ray, although knowing how thorough He is on this Topic, He probably mentions it some place.
We, that's You, Me and Everyone don't know for absolute certainty what's going to happen five minutes from now. We can't predict or fully determine exactly how events are going to play out to their minute details. If We don't know for certainly what's going to happen five minutes from Now, We certainly can't be certain what's going to happen Tomorrow. We can't control the outcome of Our choices and the affects of the choices of other People and other things that take place. Actually, the concept of Free Will or Free Choice doesn't even exist. Most of Mankind uses that term, but there actually isn't Free Will or Free Moral Agency. There are so many factors, influences and events that are unknown to Us until something happens exactly the way it happens.
As an Illustration: When I crashed into that Chair in the Bedroom with the Fan on it, I had no idea whatsoever in My Brain and it was fully Dark too, that I would crash into that Chair and get injured. If someone had told Me a day earlier that I would crash into a Chair in My Bedroom, I would never have thought that would happen. Of course with the warning(A CAUSE TOO), I might have chosen to check the area of the Bedroom first. Read Scripture Below, this one I like allot, it helps Me not to worry about Tomorrow and that's a CAUSE that leads to a CHOICE too, ;).
Jas 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Yes, We don't know what will happen Tomorrow and what We will do or not do, only if the Lord Wills that We do this or that.
Hope this helps, Samson.