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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: addisonrocket on May 28, 2007, 08:12:01 PM
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I've been wondering a lot about Islam. It is said to be the fastest growing religion in the world, how could this be? I look at how America claims to be a "Christian" nation and I don't see how a nation that is so wealthy and so disobedient to their own religion and then I look at the middle east and see how un-wealthy and how obedient and zealous they are. Unlike "Christians" they put their religion before anything else.
And some claims they believe is why the Quran is divine.
1. The Beauty of the Quran
2. Scientific Details revealed in the Quran
3. Quranic inerrancy
4. The spread of Islam
5. Fulfilled prophecy
6. Miracles of Quranic Composition
7. Preservation of the Quran
Has anyone read about the miracles of the Quran? A lot of it is pretty interesting actually... you can find these sites on any search engine just type in "numeric miracles in quran". Also a lot of reasons why they believe the bible is not the inerrant word of God is because...
1. Paul is the only known author of the New Testament. (true?)
2. The first writings of the New Testament never took place until 20 years AFTER Jesus' time on Earth.
3. Paul NEVER KNEW OR EVEN MET Jesus.
and lastly...
4. Jesus never commissioned or ordered any of his teachings to be written down.
John 16:7-13.
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Muslims believe this bible verse is referring to the coming of Muhammad who is said to have "SPOKE ONLY WHAT HE HEARD AND TOLD WHAT IS YET TO COME" when the angel Gabriel spoke to him the very word of God in a cave one night.
So what are your thoughts? Would it be far off to believe that Muhammad wasn't just lying his butt off and maybe the Lord actually authorized the use of a lying spirit that deceived him into thinking that he was actually the last and final prophet of God?
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Addison,
I listened to a lot of audio on Islam. The link below has a lot of mp3 downloads, and they're free. The mp3s on Islam are by a guy name Dr. Robert Morey, and they are called Lectures on Islam. There are 11 mp3. I can't remember if the guy is preaching heresy doctrine or not. I think he just expounds on Islam. There are a whole lot of other mp3s on the site that are full of heresy, so be careful with those. I think I listened to about half of them a couple years ago.
http://server.firefighters.org/1999-2000catalog.asp (http://server.firefighters.org/1999-2000catalog.asp)
God bless
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you da man
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"Spiritual Discernment" comes to mind.
- Jer
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Just a few points in you post: Paul is not the only writer of the New Testament, that is clear.
The fact (?) that the writings were only compiled 20 years after proves what? Are you implying that the memories of the Apostles or writers were possibly fudged over time?
Paul DID meet Christ on the road to Damascus, and because of this and his calling he was a qualified Apostle, a fact that was never disputed by the others. It is true that Paul did not learn with Christ, but then when it was obvious to Paul that Jesus is the Christ, Paul could then see Him revealed in the old covenant.
Lastly, if Christ was the Son of God, and Mohammed was of greater authority than Christ, who was Mohammed a son of? The two understandings are incompatible.
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You know that's whats wrong with religion its always put before God.
I guess it all depends on which God you believe in, the god of religion or the God of Creation.
It would help to read Rays papers "The Lake of Fire" and you would understand why all religions are so far off from the true Word of God.
many are called, but few are chosen.
Randy
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Hi :-)
With difficult topics, I usually go and try and find the origin of something... and take it from there...
Genesis 16:9-15 "...And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael..."
Genesis 21:12-18 "...And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation..."
:-)
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A couple paragraphs from Wikipedia.
Muslims believe that God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad, God's final prophet, and regard the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the words and deeds of Muhammad) as the fundamental sources of Islam.[3] They do not regard Muhammad as the founder of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original monotheistic faith of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets. Islamic tradition holds that Judaism and Christianity distorted the messages of these prophets over time either in interpretation, in text, or both.[4]
Islam includes many religious practices. Adherents are generally required to observe the Five Pillars of Islam, which are five duties that unite Muslims into a community.[5] In addition to the Five Pillars, Islamic law (Sharia) has developed a tradition of rulings that touch on virtually all aspects of life and society. This tradition encompasses everything from practical matters like dietary laws to practices like jihad.[6]
Almost all Muslims belong to one of two major denominations, the Sunni and Shi'a. The schism developed in the late 7th century following disagreements over the religious and political leadership of the Muslim community. Roughly 85% of Muslims are Sunni and 15% are Shi'a. Islam is the predominant religion throughout the Middle East, as well as in parts of Africa, Central and Southeast Asia, and the Indian subcontinent. Large communities are also found in China, Western Europe, the Balkan Peninsula, and Russia. Only about 20% of Muslims come from Arab countries.[7]
Muslims consider the Qur'an to be the literal word of God; it is the central religious text of Islam.[22] Muslims believe that the verses of the Qur'an were revealed to Muhammad by God through the angel Gabriel on many occasions between the years 610 and his death on July 6, 632. The Qur'an was written down by Muhammad's companions (sahabah) while he was alive, although the prime method of transmission was orally.
Thanking God I'm not Muslim
Matt
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O my o my o my o my..... I know I shouldn't.... But I know I will anyway (well, maybe just a little bit).... Aha! Since there is no free will, this isn't really me that's writing this ......!?
Islam is simple just as Christianity is simple just as Judaism is simple.
Islam is complex just as Christianity is complex just as Judaism is complex.
Islam's followers are given to religious violence just as Christianity's followers are given to religious violence just as Judaism's followers are given to religious violence.
I think it is healthy to explore all of the world's religions; so not to be curious about Islam would be silly. The problem is that an awful lot of people start out with a questions like "Why is Islam wrong?" or "Why should I hate Islam?" With questions like that, good, honest answers are hard to come by.
That America is a "Christian Nation" is another thread entirely.
Muslims do believe that the Qur'an is divine. Actually, I believe that many Christians wish that they could make as strong a claim for the Bible's divinity!
Arabs were already worshipping Al-Lah (the God -- same as El Shaddai, etc...), had pride in the Kabah, were making pilgrimages to Mecca, and had a pre-Islamic faith before the Prophet went into his cave at Hira in 610. Remember, that the Arabs were worshipping the same God that we claim -- the God of Abraham. Yet they sufferered an anxiety -- God had sent prophets to the Jews and Christians, but were the Arabs forgotten by Al-Lah?
In 610, Muhammad was awakend by an angelic presence which told him to "Recite!" (iqra!) Just like our Jewish prophets whom we believe at their word, Muhammad was reluctant to utter the Word of God. The angel's presence sqeezed the stuffings out of the Prophet and commanded him again! By the end of the third embrace, Muhammad was reciting the first words from God spoken in Arabic. This (over the course of some 23 years) would eventually be written down in the Qur'an, which means the "Recitation."
He was so powerfully moved that he flung himself out of the cave to kill himself when another angel stopped him -- this was the angel Gabriel (yes, the one and same as the story goes). So, bit by bit the Qur'an was recited by Gabriel, then recited by Muhammad (they say he was illiterate), and written down scribes.
Here is where many people jump way out of line. This is an important point in order to complare Christianity and Islam -- The Qur'an is so central to Islam, that it should be compared to Jesus (the Logos), not the Bible. For Christians, Jesus is the manifestation of the Logos (not the Bible); for the Muslim believer, the Qur'an is that borne directly Al-Lah. This is a common mistake (and, I believe, that many Christian belief systems try and make them equal in importance to their respective religions -- they are not. Period.).
So when a Muslim quotes the Qur'an, it carries the weight of Paul's verbal account of his encounter with Jesus on the road -- not the writing about it later.
As another interesting parallel to early Christianity, Muhammad's early preaching was not about founding a new religion, but about refining (in Arabic terms) the old ways of interpreting Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. Are the quotes attributed to Jesus about founding a new religion, or about refining the old ways of interpreting Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc...?
Now, Muhammad's Islam was merely a surrendering of oneself to the Creator. Once that was done through a recitation, one could be called a Muslim.
Once one gives over to Al-LAh (remember, this is the God of Abraham), one needs follow the 5 pillars (rukn) of Islam of which alms-giving and prayer are two of the pillars.
This should be enough to get you started learning more about Islam. I do not wish to break any "teaching" rules -- I seek only to edify the body. Islam is no more our enemy than is Judaism, orthodox Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholics, or anyone else who searches for the One. Hey, throw Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham on that list!
Let's be more like Jesus and less like the John Birch Society!
Peace
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Yikes!
My son spent a year in Pakistan. He dressed in their clothing, smoked their pipe, and drank tea w/ them in their home. He has deep respect for Muslim PEOPLE. But not ISLAM!! Don't paint it w/ such a rosy color Pax.
sORRY, but the koran also speaks badly about a lot of things. The things the Pakistanis think about Jesus is not that He was a fine prophet- no, lunatik more like it. You cannot mention to a Muslim that Mohammed died w/ a child "wife", and the warring and killing etc of his followers. The trials they put on women is deplorable. I could go on and on but I shan't.
The Talmud of the Jews is pretty rough on Jesus also.
To want to know and understand about all religions is fine I guess. I had to take World Religions in college. We all hate religiosity and Churchianity. But there are many verses in koran that do talk about Jesus in a disparaging way.
My daughter taught at a school in Switzerland and had a few of the Saudi nephews. Loads of stories, but one time she just asked if she could see a copy of Koran, They all but shouted at her and wagged their fingers, NO NO Never. You a woman will never read it. You don't need to know anything!!
My son traveled in India, (and my doctor is Indian Christian from Goa), and same thing--Indians have a lot of traditional misunderstandings about Jesus-crazy stories etc.
Again, its not the people, its their belief system that has been duped on them. According to God's plan.
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Pax, I am afraid that you might be a little mistaken with this. :)
This should be enough to get you started learning more about Islam. I do not wish to break any "teaching" rules -- I seek only to edify the body. Islam is no more our enemy than is Judaism, orthodox Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholics, or anyone else who searches for the One. Hey, throw Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham on that list!
At least all of the religions you state with the exception of Islam believe in the fundamental right of every human being and that death to fellow humans is not a command of their God; but loving thy neighbor is.
I will now ask you a simple question, where would you rather your wife, daughter, sister, mother, etc. dressed in modern American clothing visit. A room full of radical Catholics in England or radical Islamists in Pakistan ?
All things being equal as you say, then it should not matter in the least. :)
Yet, I am sure it would matter, it would matter to me. We are told to love our neighbor, and I do, for it is very hard hating a creation of God. Yet I do not have to love their teaching, beliefs or their actions. To do so would be foolish, yet not nearly as foolish or reckless as allowing your wife, etc. anywhere near them.
God gave us a mind to reason and a heart to feel and there is a Scripture (that I can't find) that instructs a man to protect loved ones. I strongly believe placing loved ones in such a position with the premise that it is God's will if anything should happen is pretty sad! :( (NOT that you said that!!) :)
Mat 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Just a different way of looking at it Pax.
Love to you,
Darren
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Here's another way of looking at it. I love the big wild cats of Africa; lions, leopards, tigers and what not. I love to see them, watch Animal Planet shows about them, whatever. Would I hang out with them? Uh, no probably not.
Pax, I, too, have studied about Islam and other religions. The history of Islam is fascinating. It's also brutal and bloody. Islam is most definitely THE most dangerous religion in all the world today. Islam hates the world. There is no "live and let live" in Islam. Do your homework on this. They'd rather see YOU dead than follow anything other than Al-Lah. Do you understand that if they had their way, (don't believe it then ask them) then if given the chance to force YOU to convert or die, an answer of, "no," would be your death warrant.
They think that "America" is the Great Satan. They hate us! With a vehement passion, they hate us and want us all to DIE. (and some of us have!) God forbid the day when all the Christians in America marched through the streets calling for death to all Arabs. Think about it.
If we want to be more like Jesus, maybe we should call wrong wrong.
Still thanking God I'm not Muslim,
Matt
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It is quite easy to combine believers and beliefs. The questions raised about Islam were just that. The answers I gave are sure and true.
If you will indulge me, I will make a couple of brief comments and then go back to my hole...
Gmik --
I am sorry that your son had such a bad experience. But these are views of people, not the religion. Can Christians cast the first stone at these folks?
Yellowstone --
The Qu'ran states the sanctity of life also.
As to my wife and daughters? I would rather they stay at home; but if they must choose, then it does not matter to me at all. That's not a dodge at all.
mari-et-pere --
There is such hate in the tone of your post that it alone almost kept me from responding. Yes the history of Islam is fascinating, bloody and brutal (I cannot think of a successful civilization who cannot make the same claim). I do not believe that Islam is the most dangerous religion in the world today. Islam does not hate the world. "Live and let live" is a basic tenet of Islam and central to the 5 Pillars. I have done my homework (and have graded homework) and actually, Jews and Christians are protected under and by Islamic doctrine.
Some writers refer to the US as the Great Satan -- but this is not because of our supposed religious affiliations. They hate us for reasons other than that.
Let's let this drop, OK? I just wanted to help the original post get started learning about Islam.
Peace
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Pax, I'll let the Islam debate drop; I care not. All that baloney is in God's hands.
But I'll take the time to defend myself by saying that I am 100% hate free. I don't hate any human. That's a sin that I can honestly say I don't succumb to anymore. Just thought I'd drop that seed for ya because you took my reply as having a hateful tone.
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Pax you must have misunderstood me. My son had a wondeful experience in Pakistan. He loved and fellowshipped w/ the PEOPLE.
Matt, you didn't sound hateful to me. Just calling a spade a spade. Darren good points.
I think islam is one of the many daughters of the harlot and we are to come out from her.
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Hey Addison!
Here is an e-mail from Ray on the subject of the Qur'an. Read the passages Ray lists below and you'll know that the god of the Qur'an is not the God of the Scriptures.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,402.0.html (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,402.0.html)
Ray,
>
You are certainly striving for the Truth, and putting it out there in a major way. I respect that. You are certainly cutting through much that is
> hypocritical and nonsensical and contrary to Scripture. I too have been striving similarly for a few years now, to find my way on the narrow path of God.
>
Now look at the following scripture passages, and do me the favor of checking an interpretation of them: Deut 18:19-19 and John 16: 5-15. According to my own understanding, these passages refer to the prophet muhammad. I ask you to consider reading the Qur'an, because in my own reading of it I have discovered that it is completely consistent with the bible, and also an indespensable fulfillment of it. As with christianity, which departed from the truth of its scriptures rather quickly, so did islam, and yet the Qur'an is still gold, just like the bible is. Read it and you will find that God is speaking through it.
But if you find something different, let me know please. It is not like I just want to burden you with another hard case to crack, or challenge you beyond your limits, because I think you can handle this difficult task, but believe me you will be better off in the end.
>
> May the God of Peace be with you,
>
> Ian
Dear Ian:
Are not the following quotations from your Qur'an of gold? Is this the God of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures speaking through your Qur'an?
[al-Bayyinah 98:1-8 ]
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans
shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest
of all creatures.
[al-Hajj 22:19-22:23]
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers.
Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting
their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall
be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they
try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and
will be told: "Taste the torment of the Conflagration!"
[al-kahf 18:28-30]
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will
encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they
cry out for help they shall be showered with water as
hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil
shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.
[al-Mu'min 40:67-40:73]
Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of
God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied
the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles
shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and
shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through
scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.
[az-Zukhruf 43:74]
..The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell.
The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be
speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves
I think NOT! "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the LIVING GOD, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN , especially of those that believe...God our Saviour Who will have ALL MEN TO BER SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (I Tim. 4:10 & 2:4).
"Coming into the knowledge of THE TRUTH" will be a most painful experience for all those who fail to "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" (Matt. 5:44). I don't believe that your religion teaches to "LOVE your enemies," does it?
Ray
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I neither wish to defend the Qur'an as a Holy writ, nor do I wish to defend modern, radical Islam as a profession of the Almighty Creator. However, Ray's email answer to this young lad merely quotes that the Qur'an does teach a belief of Hell as a place of fiery torment -- as did the Christians of the same time period (and many today!).
As far as the violent tone of Ray's quotes from the Qur'an, we certainly do not have to look far into the Bible to find some pretty violent passages. Who was it that lost favor with God (wouldn't that also be Jesus?) because he did not kill women and children? How about people who work on the Sabbath should be killed? Eating a shrimp is an abomination? Even Jesus (wouldn't that also be God?) commanded that to be His disciple, we must hate our parents and our own lives.
I do not mean to take this conversation away from its initial query; however, let's at least paint with the same brush.
Peace
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I neither wish to defend the Qur'an as a Holy writ, nor do I wish to defend modern, radical Islam as a profession of the Almighty Creator. However, Ray's email answer to this young lad merely quotes that the Qur'an does teach a belief of Hell as a place of fiery torment -- as did the Christians of the same time period (and many today!).
As far as the violent tone of Ray's quotes from the Qur'an, we certainly do not have to look far into the Bible to find some pretty violent passages. Who was it that lost favor with God (wouldn't that also be Jesus?) because he did not kill women and children? How about people who work on the Sabbath should be killed? Eating a shrimp is an abomination? Even Jesus (wouldn't that also be God?) commanded that to be His disciple, we must hate our parents and our own lives.
I do not mean to take this conversation away from its initial query; however, let's at least paint with the same brush.
Peace
Pax,
I have no idea where you are headed with this ::)
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So Christ said we must hate our parents?
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
So what did Christ REALLY say?
Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Surely you do not need me to explain this, but what Christ said is that if any man comes to me with his mind and heart on anything other than ME, then he his wasting his and my time, both. (words are mine)
Hate in this instance, does not mean HATE, it means putting love for self and loved ones ahead of Christ. I understand totally what Christ meant, because I surely did not know love until I began searching for it with my heart instead of my eyes, ears and mind.
I hope this helps.
Darren
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However, Ray's email answer to this young lad merely quotes that the Qur'an does teach a belief of Hell as a place of fiery torment -- as did the Christians of the same time period (and many today!).
Yes, and if you believe the Scriptures, this is all you should need to know that the Qur'an is NOT true. :)
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I do not mean to take this conversation away from its initial query; however, let's at least paint with the same brush.
Can one paint a house and a model car with the same brush?
Matt
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Matt, cool analogy 8)
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Why thank you very much Gena! :D
Matt
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Pax, are you saying that Ray's quote are taken out of context and do not represent the general teaching of Islam?
Everyone else, I hear alot of people say the Quran teaches the murder of all who aren't Muslims. Not that I am doubting you, but do we have chapter and verse? I would like to read this for myself and am looking for a reference point.
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Islam is dependent on works which already contradicts the scriptures in itself. The books go in entirely different directions when it comes to salvation and worshiping God. The 5 pillars of Islam are 100% based on works and have very little to no spiritual value (maybe with the exception of prayer). It is a violent book, but our very own scriptures are not far behind so it is not a very good point to try and convince a sincere Muslim. I love Muslims and pray that their eyes are opened to truth. They criticize Christianity based on mainstream doctrines which we mostly hate ourselves (the Doctrines that is, I love Christians too). In reality, just like Christians and Jews, they haven't a clue as to the spiritual and delve on the physical and carnal. As we all know, God is Spirit and those that worship must worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH. Sorry if there is already a response similar to this one.
God be with you,
Roy
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No. Ray picked passages from the Qur'an which describe Hell (and its future inhabitants) in very graphic, violent terms. So, in that respect, it was contextual and Hell (eternal torment for unbelievers and general riffraff) is in the teachings of Islam.
The Qur'an is written in surahs -- essentially chapters -- which someone long ago ordered by length rather than subject or chronology. Since it took something like 26 years to recite, it can appear disjointed and contradictory (sound familiar?).
As far as Islam being based on works -- that is partially correct. Yet Islam has some powerful mysticism and poetic spirituality which, they say, is lost in the English translations. I do not pretend to understand Arabic.
But here's the rub and why I join in on this conversation when I think I can contribute: EVERYONE on Earth is on the same journey. Think of it not as a bunch of different religious, sectional traditions opposed to one another, but as humans trying to gain understanding of this life. Everyone is seeking Truth.
Can we really hate people just because they are not as "enlightened" as we? Were we all not at some point in our lives conviced that we had the tiger of truth by the tail? And now (we think) we know better?
Is there anyone out there who is silly enough to say that all has been revealed and understood by humans? Of course not, so if there is still truth and understanding out there to be gained, then everything we believe today (within limits, I hope) is subject to that more complete revelation. That puts everyone in the midst of the spectrum of Truth and no one on either end of it (that is to say I doubt there is anyone who has no Truth as well as anyone who knows all Truth).
If we are on on the same spectrum, then how might I so arrogantly claim such violent thoughts toward a fellow human being only because he is not "up" where I am!
The Cross is not for us to climb upon (with apologies to Camus) to see better who is not up here with us, it is a heavy spiritual burden. Perhaps seeing these people as brothers and sisters who share our journey is what Jesus was talking about after all!
Peace
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Pax, I would think we all agree.
Your quote by Ghandi says it all :)
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Can we really hate people just because they are not as "enlightened" as we?
I hope you realize soon that nobody here is speaking hate toward any people. If I were going to hate others who's beliefs didn't line up with mine, I'd hate my sister, parents, and my own kids and wife, and probably you too. Who said anything about hate?
I agree we're all on a spiritual journey. I'm wise enough to learn from the scriptures and Islam that Islam is not the way to go. ;D
Matt
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Islam is dependent on works which already contradicts the scriptures in itself. The books go in entirely different directions when it comes to salvation and worshiping God. The 5 pillars of Islam are 100% based on works and have very little to no spiritual value (maybe with the exception of prayer). It is a violent book, but our very own scriptures are not far behind so it is not a very good point to try and convince a sincere Muslim. I love Muslims and pray that their eyes are opened to truth. They criticize Christianity based on mainstream doctrines which we mostly hate ourselves (the Doctrines that is, I love Christians too). In reality, just like Christians and Jews, they haven't a clue as to the spiritual and delve on the physical and carnal. As we all know, God is Spirit and those that worship must worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH. Sorry if there is already a response similar to this one.
God be with you,
Roy
Roy,
That is the key, an excellent point you made.
The Muslim religion is works based rather than faith or spiritual based, it is as carnal as Judaism.
No one really understood the OT until the NT and New Covenant gave us keys to understanding, unless one has the Spirit of Christ within and is being spiritually converted into His Image no matter what good works they might do the same result applies, judgment after death to many stripes or a few stripes.
Sure the OT reads as a violent work in many of the pages but the deeper spiritual truths revealed in those Words is awe inspiring.
God is sending strong delusion to those who see the OT as strictly literal.
As far as shellfish go they are creatures of the sea and we know the sea represents the unbelieving multitudes, we should not partake or consume any of their pagan doctrines (religious food). The multitudes were also not chosen to understand the parables or even Christ Himself (presently).
Dietary law was also used in a vision Peter had after Pentecost where he saw the "unclean" foods spread on a sheet and was commanded to eat, when Peter refused he was given the meaning of the vision, "Christ is now calling Gentiles as well," the unclean have been deemed clean. All men are eventually brothers in Christ but the doctrines of paganism should not (and will not) be incorporated into His Spiritual Kingdom.
In many ways I agree with Pax that the religion of the Muslims is not a whole lot different than some of the christian churches especially after about 300 AD through the middle ages, but both religions are physical, carnal and dead. Without the Spirit of Christ there is no real life. It is obvious some Muslims (at least the ones getting all the attention) are stuck in this old time period as well.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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It is obvious some Muslims (at least the ones getting all the attention) are stuck in this old time period as well.
This is very true. Not all Muslims are following the same beliefs totally. Much like Christians, they have different factions/ sects/ denominations or whatever you want to label them. They have the Sunnis, the Shiites and others. SO...it's hard for us, who aren't involved in it, to pinpoint exactly what they believe because they all don't believe the same. Just like "christians", a Baptist will give you a different set of beliefs than a Mormon for example. But like I said before, they're all in God's hands.
Matt
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My son is taking muslim history in the middle ages at college this summer and I was looking thru some of the notes. Lordy, very violent they were to one another. They called christians and jews "people of the book", and were fairly tolerant- however that all changed down thru time. Besides the koran, are the "hadith" the sayings and doings of the prophet and the "Sira" the biography of the prophet, and the"maghazi" the history of the prophet and his military battles. All these are used in their religion, altho the koran is strictly the word of Allah
The first battle in the history of Islam is in 623CE-started as a raid on a caravan but the Meccan's responded w/ an army outnumbering the muslims 3-1. And they won!!! they credit Angels for divine intervention. Just FYI.
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Gena said: "Islam is one of the many daughters of the harlot" AND "we/they too, are to come out from her"
Exactly correct. Thank you for understanding the basics.
Bob
Pax you must have misunderstood me. My son had a wondeful experience in Pakistan. He loved and fellowshipped w/ the PEOPLE.
Matt, you didn't sound hateful to me. Just calling a spade a spade. Darren good points.
I think islam is one of the many daughters of the harlot and we are to come out from her.