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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: zander on May 24, 2011, 08:14:08 PM
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Yesterday, Ray put up a letter posted by a gay man who tries to challenge that homosexuality is not a sin.
He made the following statement below:
Secondly the Leviticus Codes of Holiness no longer apply to NT Christians. Leviticus 20:9 orders death to children for cursing their parents? Do we abide by that today, NO! We are under a NEW LAW!
I think Ray answered this incorrectly. Ray went on to explain that cursing parents is still indeed a sin. Aaron (the gay man) was not contesting this notion. I think what Aaron was saying, is that we no longer order death to children today if we curse our parents - NOT the actual act of cursing our parents.
Just wanted to point it out.
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Zander I don't agree with you. Aaron's whole premise was that homosexuality was not a sin in the New Testament. Ray pointed out that even though we may not put to death a child that curses their parents, it is still a sin. And yes Aaron was contesting this notion.
Know this, if I emailed Ray and said gossip, or adultry or any number of sins was not a sin then he would let me have it with both barrels also. Ray is not judging the sinner but he does judge the sin. It's been awhile but this response is vintage Ray.
Craig
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OK. (btw i am not entering the argument of homosexuality).
It just seems that Aaron was making the point that we no longer order the death of children, which is fair enough as we don't. But Ray answered it as if to say its not a sin to curse our parents. I'm sure Aaron or any basic Christian would understand that it Is of course a sin to curse our parents. I would have understood it more had it been answered something like "even though today we no longer order the death of children for it, cursing your parents is still a punishable sin."
I know we will have differing opinions on it, but its just the way i am seeing it.
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I see where you are going Zander. Ray was using sarcasm, Aaron used the premise of cursing your parents is not a sin in the new testament to justify homosexuality and Ray went along with him.
Craig
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OK i dont know if i'm being misunderstood, maybe its the way i'm writing it.
Forget the Cursing of parents. Lets forget that entirely for a second. Pretend it never even came up.
Aaron's point (the way i see it) was that in Leviticus they ordered children to die.
Aaron's point being now that Children are NO longer ordered to die in the New Testament.
The way i see it, Ray didnt address that today, we no longer order children to die. He instead talked about the other bit.
Anyway, its not really a huge deal.
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Secondly the Leviticus Codes of Holiness no longer apply to NT Christians. Leviticus 20:9 orders death to children for cursing their parents? Do we abide by that today, NO! We are under a NEW LAW!
We aren't under The Old Covenant of the Law anymore but The New Covenant of Grace. Grace is not a law. Just because we are under Grace does not give us a license to sin. We can sin. Any sin. Should we? NO. Homosexuality is still a sin. The same goes for lesbianism and bisexuality. If anybody dies in one of these three sins, they will go to the temporary lake burning with fire and sulfur. Therefore, they will not be one of the firstfruits. Scripture makes it very clear in Unveiling and 1 Corinthians that this is STILL a sin. Thus we dislike sin but realize that these are human-beings in trouble, living in such. We have to get them out of sin and get them to live in Christ. The word catamite in the following verse of Unveiling means a person living in homosexuality. Wouldn't the word catamite also encompass lesbians and bisexuals? I believe so. Why would lesbianism and bisexuality be any different? They wouldn't. Do you think that God favors one over the other? HE DOES NOT LIKE SIN AT ALL. Thus all of these are sins. In other words the sexually immoral will be in the lake burning with fire and sulfur if they do not turn from their sins. Many of the sexually immoral will try and give you the run-around and avoid your explanations of Scripture because they are trying to justify their sins. BEWARE! There's also no such thing as somebody being more homosexual than other homosexuals. They are all 100% homosexuals. Such is the same for lesbians and bisexuals. They all live in the same sin. There's also 1 Corinthians 6:9 that you need meditate on.
Unveiling 21:8 (Concordant Literal)
8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
1 Corinthians 6:9 (Concordant Literal)
9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
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We have to get them out of sin and get them to live in Christ.
We have to??? I may regret this but, how do "we" get them to do anything? I have been trying to "get" my son to believe in the one hope he has for peace, mercy, grace, love, salvation.....I can't DO anything outside of what Christ wants me to do..
I am not trying to make you feel foolish or judge you or whatever, my friend, but this is hard for me to be silent on..... I have been trying to DO what I thought was right my whole life and it all failed....like Ray says, we can't even take a breath if HE doesn't will it to happen...in one of Ray's studies he says that if you don't believe that just try holding your breath and see if you can make yourself die......you can't do it. Maybe someone can bring that study up for you but, I am finding the longer I live the more I realize that I am in control of nothing....THANK GOD.
I say this out of a very humble attitude, I promise you. It's not one of pride.......I would not wish anyone to walk in my shoes to find that path....
Grace
I understand what you are saying. Sorry, I made a mistake there. It should read, " 'We should help them out of sin and help get them to live in Christ.' " Of course it's God who wills in us. Thanks for the concern.
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I've started thinking that the penalty for sins in the old testament is the penalty that Jesus had to pay on the cross. Death, separation, all of it. When we curse our parents we don't physically die- we spiritually die and Jesus paid for that with his physical death. He did not receive grace up on that cross-He received that old testament penalty. He was the Ram -we are Isaac. But the penalty is always paid.
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oK, so please replY....ARE WE ALL PUPPETS HERE? GEEZ wHY IS EVERYONE SO AFRAID?
Grace,
No, We are not Puppets, but I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability accompanied with they have the desire, so they Sin, but All of Us were Created exceedingly weak to avoid Sinning, but God's doing a Work in Us, creating Humanity in His Image, but it's a process, primarily targeting God's Chosen Elect during this Lifetime(AGE) routine. However, We have a History of Threads accompanied by discussions on this Subject, as a matter of fact, there is an Email by Ray, right from the Front page entitled, ARE WE PUPPETS, so I shall copy & paste it for you below. God created Humanity(Male/Female) too spiritually weak not to Sin. God is the Author of every cause, every circumstance and every response by Humans that ever took place, presently takes place and will take place, but We are participants, Actors & Actresses, if you will in this Great Play(The Human condition), written & directed By God. Read Ray Below.
Dear Ray,
In the letter I sent on July 23 about freedom of choice you answered me with this reply "we are not the captains of our own destiny ... you will quit smoking when GOD DECIDES YOU WILL QUIT SMOKING and not before"
If this is true, then we ARE puppets with God pulling the strings. This means that God is in charge of all sin.
If this is so why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins if we really are not in control of sinning?
If it is true then all of those TV evangelists are preaching about hell because GOD HASN'T DECIDED TO STOP THEM YET.
All the misinterpretations of the bible that cause people to hate God's children because they are different WONT STOP UNTIL GOD DECIDES.
Ray is this what you mean is happening unknown to us? I just want to understand what you are saying. I really am not being arrogant, even though its sounds that way.
I am a Christian for sixty years. For the past two years I have been researching past Christian history. It puts a new outlook on what I have read. I have always blamed mankind for the Spanish inquisition, slavery, white man slaughtering the American Indians, etc.
I just don't want to believe they were all GODS DECISIONS. Do you understand what Ii am trying to say Ray?
Very sincerely,
Grace
Dear Grace:
Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual. Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.
YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!
Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not. It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.
Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.
By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet. But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?
You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"?
The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!
Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!
Sincerely,
Ray
Hope This Helps, Samson.
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oK, so please replY....ARE WE ALL PUPPETS HERE? GEEZ wHY IS EVERYONE SO AFRAID?
Grace,
No, We are not Puppets, but I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability accompanied with they have the desire, so they Sin, but All of Us were Created exceedingly weak to avoid Sinning, but God's doing a Work in Us, creating Humanity in His Image, but it's a process, primarily targeting God's Chosen Elect during this Lifetime(AGE) routine. However, We have a History of Threads accompanied by discussions on this Subject, as a matter of fact, there is an Email by Ray, right from the Front page entitled, ARE WE PUPPETS, so I shall copy & paste it for you below. God created Humanity(Male/Female) too spiritually weak not to Sin. God is the Author of every cause, every circumstance and every response by Humans that ever took place, presently takes place and will take place, but We are participants, Actors & Actresses, if you will in this Great Play(The Human condition), written & directed By God. Read Ray Below.
Dear Ray,
In the letter I sent on July 23 about freedom of choice you answered me with this reply "we are not the captains of our own destiny ... you will quit smoking when GOD DECIDES YOU WILL QUIT SMOKING and not before"
If this is true, then we ARE puppets with God pulling the strings. This means that God is in charge of all sin.
If this is so why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins if we really are not in control of sinning?
If it is true then all of those TV evangelists are preaching about hell because GOD HASN'T DECIDED TO STOP THEM YET.
All the misinterpretations of the bible that cause people to hate God's children because they are different WONT STOP UNTIL GOD DECIDES.
Ray is this what you mean is happening unknown to us? I just want to understand what you are saying. I really am not being arrogant, even though its sounds that way.
I am a Christian for sixty years. For the past two years I have been researching past Christian history. It puts a new outlook on what I have read. I have always blamed mankind for the Spanish inquisition, slavery, white man slaughtering the American Indians, etc.
I just don't want to believe they were all GODS DECISIONS. Do you understand what Ii am trying to say Ray?
Very sincerely,
Grace
Dear Grace:
Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual. Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.
YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!
Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not. It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.
Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.
By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet. But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?
You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"?
The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!
Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!
Sincerely,
Ray
Hope This Helps, Samson.
Actually, we are all puppets. I by no means mean this in a bad way. Puppets in the hands of a loving puppet master and that is God. If we aren't puppets then what would be the word? His sovereign will is greater than our limited one. Everything that happens in life is because of God and He loves everyone, we are all important to His plan. Therefore, we aren't just puppets. Some may still have trouble understanding the puppet master doctrine which is understandable.
The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!
Sincerely,
Ray
Hope This Helps, Samson.
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oK, so please replY....ARE WE ALL PUPPETS HERE? GEEZ wHY IS EVERYONE SO AFRAID?
Hi Grace,
I'm confused. Reply to what? What question did you ask that no one answered. ??? Members will respond to a post when they feel compelled to do so. If no one responds, well, so be it. Don't take it personally. :)
René
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Because of Romans 9 we have a better word than puppets-we are clay, made from dust, some for noble use and some for ignoble. I actually find great comfort in that. We just don't get to ask the Maker, "why did you make me thus?" But I can't sit around and figure if I don't feel like doing something it's Gods will when the Word has already told me what to do and how. The journey is important because Gods made it important-He wants us to struggle, to knock, to study. Isn't this part of being refined?
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Here's the funny thing. So often I want to ask some of our well written and eloquent brethren, "how do you remember all of this?" And the way you're studying is great so you shouldn't apologize. When I have a question here I usually start with the search engine though you really have to sift through that sometimes and reword the question. I too feel very slow because of the sheer volume of info but I'm So Glad there's enough here to struggle with for years to come!
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By Grace:
I say this out of a very humble attitude, I promise you. It's not one of pride.......I would not wish anyone to walk in my shoes to find that path....
I will second that. It is not a pleasant experience when God takes the Rock to one's pride. I can speak to that from personal experience.
This person's email even made me recoil when he insinuated that Paul was making up doctrines and that "homosexuality is a gift from God." I mentally recoiled as if burned. Granted, I was once one of those that believed that God was perfectly fine with it - that it was an OT law only - meant to separate the Israelites from the heathen, etc, BUT it is a deception. When the Truth showed it for what it was, I broke down in uncontrollable sobs when I first read Ray's paper on it.
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Actually, we are all puppets. I by no means mean this in a bad way. Puppets in the hands of a loving puppet master and that is God. If we aren't puppets then what would be the word? His sovereign will is greater than our limited one. Everything that happens in life is because of God and He loves everyone, we are all important to His plan. Therefore, we aren't just puppets. Some may still have trouble understanding the puppet master doctrine which is understandable.
Sincerely,
Ray
Not puppets.... Clay. Clay in the Potter's Hands. :D
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I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability
Thanks Samson. I apologize. I ask everyone to please forgive my post in here. :)
The earlier letter to Ray from "Grace" was not mine....it was another Grace....that's weird.
Grace
Another Grace, hmmm. Perhaps one of us has a stalker albeit a very good hacker to masquerade. A stalker... :-\...oh, my, my! :D
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Not puppets.... Clay. Clay in the Potter's Hands. :D
I forgot all about that word. I'm not sure why. Totally slipped my mind. I suppose that's a better term since it's based off of Scripture. Same concept and that doesn't take away from the fact that it's God that wills in us.
:D
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Yesterday, Ray put up a letter posted by a gay man who tries to challenge that homosexuality is not a sin.
He made the following statement below:
Secondly the Leviticus Codes of Holiness no longer apply to NT Christians. Leviticus 20:9 orders death to children for cursing their parents? Do we abide by that today, NO! We are under a NEW LAW!
I think Ray answered this incorrectly. Ray went on to explain that cursing parents is still indeed a sin. Aaron (the gay man) was not contesting this notion. I think what Aaron was saying, is that we no longer order death to children today if we curse our parents - NOT the actual act of cursing our parents.
Yes, the bible is anti-homosexual. It's also plainly anti-sexual, anti-women, anti-shellfish, anti-polyester, and anti-beard trimming... Etc, depending on the book and era it was written.
Thank God for Grace then!
I prefer to ask what the bible is "pro" for.
The bible makes it clear that love, compassion, and forgiveness are the human traits I should be focusing on.
Just wanted to point it out.
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Paul was inspired to write this in his letter to the Romans, and I think it fits this thread as well.
Romans 12:1-2 I Beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.
4-5
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Joel
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I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability
Thanks Samson. I apologize. I ask everyone to please forgive my post in here. :)
The earlier letter to Ray from "Grace" was not mine....it was another Grace....that's weird.
Grace
Another Grace, hmmm. Perhaps one of us has a stalker albeit a very good hacker to masquerade. A stalker... :-\...oh, my, my! :D
I guess so....I've never written Ray a letter about smoking.....emails are easy enough to trace....I wrote him only once and it had nothing to do with smoking.....I just found it interesting that email was from someone named "grace" also. ;D Perhaps, I should change my nic in here....lol.
Purely Coincidental on My part, but, as we are taught, not Coincidental from God's perspective, ;).
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Unveiling 21:8 (Concordant Literal)
8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
This thread has gotten sorta high-jacked....back to Xander
THE TIMID???!!!! Timid is lumped in w/ murderers, etc.....please help explain !!!!
Gluttony is a sin also....Isn't sin sin??? No degrees of it.
Why is homosexuality worse than being timid???
I have known a fellow for years who is a celibate homosexual-no boyfriends ever- a virgin!!! He prays to God continually to make him straight. Hasn't happened yet. He goes to church, leads a good life as any, but hasn't been delivered.
As Ray said about smoking the same can be said about my friend...The Lord will deliver Him when He will and not before and maybe never.....and yet the Christian world feels differently about him than if he smoked or was fat!!
don't judge lest ye be judged
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Unveiling 21:8 (Concordant Literal)
8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
This thread has gotten sorta high-jacked....back to Xander
THE TIMID???!!!! Timid is lumped in w/ murderers, etc.....please help explain !!!!
Gluttony is a sin also....Isn't sin sin??? No degrees of it.
Why is homosexuality worse than being timid???
I have known a fellow for years who is a celibate homosexual-no boyfriends ever- a virgin!!! He prays to God continually to make him straight. Hasn't happened yet. He goes to church, leads a good life as any, but hasn't been delivered.
As Ray said about smoking the same can be said about my friend...The Lord will deliver Him when He will and not before and maybe never.....and yet the Christian world feels differently about him than if he smoked or was fat!!
don't judge lest ye be judged
Not exactly, there are degrees of sin. For instance consider this parable:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)
The one who doesn't know the Lord's will and disobeys is less guilty than the one who knows his master's will, but disobeys anyway. There are numerous examples of degrees of sin. No doubt all sins are serious and worthy of death which is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), but there are still degrees of sin.
Hope this helps.
And oh yes, to answer the question on why homosexuality is worse than being timid, here's a scriptural answer:
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)
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"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)
Just want to clarify that this is not limited to ONLY homosexuality. This includes ANY sex outside the commitment of marriage.
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hmmm..much to ponder....thanks but degrees or not the timid and the murderer go to the LOF..
it all goes round and round tho- God made the homosexual to be that way, and will punish him anyway.
we are sinning machines as Ray has said
God will sort it all out-its all in His Plan...
Sorry if that sounds like a wimpy phrase to get out of discussion. Late and going to bed ;)
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By Gmik:
God made the homosexual to be that way, and will punish him anyway.
This was something I wrestled with for a long time back in my church days - most of my life actually. I rejected Christianity at 17 because of it. I felt like God betrayed me. I didn't think it was fair. It seemed more like God was being cruel rather than loving. I used to think, "Why couldn't I have been straight or a woman? Why couldn't I have been normal?" etc. Basically, the pot was questioning the Potter.
I don't profess to know why exactly He did this, but I keep faith that He has a purpose for it. From His perspective, there is a whole different story that I can't see. Some day, I hope to know what His side of the story is.
Living on faith ain't easy sometimes though ;D
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Unveiling 21:8 (Concordant Literal)
8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
This thread has gotten sorta high-jacked....back to Xander
THE TIMID???!!!! Timid is lumped in w/ murderers, etc.....please help explain !!!!
Gluttony is a sin also....Isn't sin sin??? No degrees of it.
Why is homosexuality worse than being timid???
I have known a fellow for years who is a celibate homosexual-no boyfriends ever- a virgin!!! He prays to God continually to make him straight. Hasn't happened yet. He goes to church, leads a good life as any, but hasn't been delivered.
As Ray said about smoking the same can be said about my friend...The Lord will deliver Him when He will and not before and maybe never.....and yet the Christian world feels differently about him than if he smoked or was fat!!
don't judge lest ye be judged
Not exactly, there are degrees of sin. For instance consider this parable:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)
The one who doesn't know the Lord's will and disobeys is less guilty than the one who knows his master's will, but disobeys anyway. There are numerous examples of degrees of sin. No doubt all sins are serious and worthy of death which is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), but there are still degrees of sin.
Hope this helps.
And oh yes, to answer the question on why homosexuality is worse than being timid, here's a scriptural answer:
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)
How can it be sin to not have a knowledge of God's will? It cannot. The person who knows His will and disobeys has committed sin. Therefore, there cannot be degrees in this case because innocence and knowledge are different from another. Fornication is a sin but this verse doesn't indicate degrees of sin, either. My point is that sin is sin. All sin is evil. Sin can still be sin and there also be degrees of sin. The degrees of sin argument would fit well into the doctrine of blasphemy against The Holy Spirit, a sin that would not be forgiven in this age or the age to come which is The Millennial Reign of Christ. A sin that's not unforgivable.
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Unveiling 21:8 (Concordant Literal)
8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
This thread has gotten sorta high-jacked....back to Xander
THE TIMID???!!!! Timid is lumped in w/ murderers, etc.....please help explain !!!!
Gluttony is a sin also....Isn't sin sin??? No degrees of it.
Why is homosexuality worse than being timid???
I have known a fellow for years who is a celibate homosexual-no boyfriends ever- a virgin!!! He prays to God continually to make him straight. Hasn't happened yet. He goes to church, leads a good life as any, but hasn't been delivered.
As Ray said about smoking the same can be said about my friend...The Lord will deliver Him when He will and not before and maybe never.....and yet the Christian world feels differently about him than if he smoked or was fat!!
don't judge lest ye be judged
Not exactly, there are degrees of sin. For instance consider this parable:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)
The one who doesn't know the Lord's will and disobeys is less guilty than the one who knows his master's will, but disobeys anyway. There are numerous examples of degrees of sin. No doubt all sins are serious and worthy of death which is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23), but there are still degrees of sin.
Hope this helps.
And oh yes, to answer the question on why homosexuality is worse than being timid, here's a scriptural answer:
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)
How can it be sin to not have a knowledge of God's will? It cannot. The person who knows His will and disobeys has committed sin. Therefore, there cannot be degrees in this case because innocence and knowledge are different from another. Fornication is a sin but this verse doesn't indicate degrees of sin, either. My point is that sin is sin. All sin is evil. Sin can still be sin and there also be degrees of sin. The degrees of sin argument would fit well into the doctrine of blasphemy against The Holy Spirit, a sin that would not be forgiven in this age or the age to come which is The Millennial Reign of Christ. A sin that's not unforgivable.
I think the point this person was making is that those who know God's Law and disobey will be punished more severely than those who disobey in ignorance. Take the laws of the road for example. There's so many different laws, and they all vary from state to state. If you're driving cross country, there's a good chance you may break one or more state laws without even knowing, because back in your home state, it's completely legal. Sometimes, when a cop pulls you over, and they see you're from another state, they may let you off with a warning when you tell them you didn't know that what you did was against their state's law. But, that same cop would be a lot less forgiving to someone who lives in that state because they should know their laws.
Daywalker 8)
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Exactly what I was trying to say daywalker.
Patrick
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My son spent 3 months last fall backpacking in SE Asia.....Millions of people have never heard the Name of Jesus....I sure hope they are not accountable as we are...from what my son says...many are living a hell on earth...
The Christian world would condemn these people..I am so glad they will be w/ us at the end when God is All in All.
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Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal)
47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.
These verses are one of many reasons why I do not believe that the never-ending torture doctrine is true. Few lashes, many lashes, NOT END-LESS LASHES. It's the will of God that man need stay away from sin. The verses don't indicate varying degrees of sin but punishment. It's not a sin to have no knowledge of His will, however, humanity has a fallen-nature and in knowing this we may also know that all have sinned anyway, with the exception of Christ. People may be ignorant of the nature of sin but this doesn't take away from the fact that sin is sin. All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?
Romans 3:23 (Concordant Literal)
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.
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Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal)
47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.
These verses are one of many reasons why I do not believe that the never-ending torture doctrine is true. Few lashes, many lashes, NOT END-LESS LASHES. It's the will of God that man need stay away from sin. The verses don't indicate varying degrees of sin but punishment. It's not a sin to have no knowledge of His will, however, humanity has a fallen-nature and in knowing this we may also know that all have sinned anyway, with the exception of Christ. People may be ignorant of the nature of sin but this doesn't take away from the fact that sin is sin. All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?
Romans 3:23 (Concordant Literal)
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.
HopeInChrist,
Not to grasp at Straws, but the phrase that you used in your above Post: humanity has a fallen-nature Is technically not accurate. Why ! Because for Humanity(Mankind) to have a "Fallen Nature" implies that they(Mankind) would have had to fall from something. In other words, it implies that their was originally something better and it Fell and became something worse. Humanity was created with a Heart that's exceedingly weak, automatically prone to Sin. Adam and Eve were incapable of Not Sinning, they were Created to be sinning machines. Christendom incorrectly uses the term: Fallen Nature, to imply that Mankind was created Morally & Spiritually Perfect and could have resisted Sinning, but they chose to Sin because of their "Free Will,"but in reality they couldn't resist sinning under the circumstances that they were given. Some quotes of Ray's Below in Blue.
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).
God provided the circumstances so that Mankind was incapable of avoiding Sin, Read below !
Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.
Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).
Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."
THE WORST SIN THAT WAS EVER COMMITTED & WE DID IT.
Sorry, but John Hagee’s "Romans only" theory has just bit the dust. So again: Who crucified our Lord and Saviour? And who is it that are to be forgiven because they know not what they do? "YOU ALL," "ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL," "THE HEATHEN," "THE PEOPLE," "THE KINGS OF THE EARTH," "THE RULERS," and "HEROD, PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES!!! Do you still think your name is left out of this list somehow?
The whole world is accountable for crucifying their Saviour Jesus Christ. But as it was done in "ignorance" (for they know not what they do), the whole world will be forgiven. So what do these things have to do with the lake of fire? Everything! I am trying to show you the mind of God. This is the way God thinks, and feels, and forgives, and LOVES! Since you haven’t learned these things in Sunday School, or Wednesday night Bible Study, or Sunday sermons, or even theological seminary, I am showing you them now. Weigh God’s Words very carefully.
The worst sin ever committed by the worst sinners in the history of the universe, was the cruel beating and crucifixion of Jesus Christ -- the Perfect Man and Son of God! Does anyone really believe that Ted Bundy’s crimes were worse than Crucifying the Son of God? Did the men immediately responsible (ultimately I’ve shown that we ALL were responsible) for His crucifixion show any remorse or repentance except Judas? Yet, Jesus Christ asked God to "forgive them" at the very time that they showed no remorse whatsoever.
Will the Father HEAR these words and ANSWER these words of Christ’s prayer? Are these just the sentimental words of Jesus that will not be heard or answered by a HARSH God in Heaven? Just Whose "words" are these, anyway? Where did these words of Jesus "forgive them" really come from?
Hope this helps to give us a better perspective about sinning, Samson.
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Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal)
47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.
These verses are one of many reasons why I do not believe that the never-ending torture doctrine is true. Few lashes, many lashes, NOT END-LESS LASHES. It's the will of God that man need stay away from sin. The verses don't indicate varying degrees of sin but punishment. It's not a sin to have no knowledge of His will, however, humanity has a fallen-nature and in knowing this we may also know that all have sinned anyway, with the exception of Christ. People may be ignorant of the nature of sin but this doesn't take away from the fact that sin is sin. All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?
Romans 3:23 (Concordant Literal)
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.
HopeInChrist,
Not to grasp at Straws, but the phrase that you used in your above Post: humanity has a fallen-nature Is technically not accurate. Why ! Because for Humanity(Mankind) to have a "Fallen Nature" implies that they(Mankind) would have had to fall from something. In other words, it implies that their was originally something better and it Fell and became something worse. Humanity was created with a Heart that's exceedingly weak, automatically prone to Sin. Adam and Eve were incapable of Not Sinning, they were Created to be sinning machines. Christendom incorrectly uses the term: Fallen Nature, to imply that Mankind was created Morally & Spiritually Perfect and could have resisted Sinning, but they chose to Sin because of their "Free Will,"but in reality they couldn't resist sinning under the circumstances that they were given. Some quotes of Ray's Below in Blue.
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).
God provided the circumstances so that Mankind was incapable of avoiding Sin, Read below !
Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.
Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).
Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."
THE WORST SIN THAT WAS EVER COMMITTED & WE DID IT.
Sorry, but John Hagee’s "Romans only" theory has just bit the dust. So again: Who crucified our Lord and Saviour? And who is it that are to be forgiven because they know not what they do? "YOU ALL," "ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL," "THE HEATHEN," "THE PEOPLE," "THE KINGS OF THE EARTH," "THE RULERS," and "HEROD, PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES!!! Do you still think your name is left out of this list somehow?
The whole world is accountable for crucifying their Saviour Jesus Christ. But as it was done in "ignorance" (for they know not what they do), the whole world will be forgiven. So what do these things have to do with the lake of fire? Everything! I am trying to show you the mind of God. This is the way God thinks, and feels, and forgives, and LOVES! Since you haven’t learned these things in Sunday School, or Wednesday night Bible Study, or Sunday sermons, or even theological seminary, I am showing you them now. Weigh God’s Words very carefully.
The worst sin ever committed by the worst sinners in the history of the universe, was the cruel beating and crucifixion of Jesus Christ -- the Perfect Man and Son of God! Does anyone really believe that Ted Bundy’s crimes were worse than Crucifying the Son of God? Did the men immediately responsible (ultimately I’ve shown that we ALL were responsible) for His crucifixion show any remorse or repentance except Judas? Yet, Jesus Christ asked God to "forgive them" at the very time that they showed no remorse whatsoever.
Will the Father HEAR these words and ANSWER these words of Christ’s prayer? Are these just the sentimental words of Jesus that will not be heard or answered by a HARSH God in Heaven? Just Whose "words" are these, anyway? Where did these words of Jesus "forgive them" really come from?
Hope this helps to give us a better perspective about sinning, Samson.
Thanks, Samson. I remember reading this study by Mr. Smith, before. The 'fallen-nature' doctrine of devils is something that I went back to without realizing. You will find that I may in fact do this from time to time as the effects of heresy that I've heard most of my life haven't fully left as of yet. Most of the time, all I need is a reminder to get back-on-track. Yes, God created us as sinners. One circumstance that I recall when reading it before was that my eyes were opened to the Truth that God created us this way to bring us back up again. Here's Romans 8:18-23 in Concordant Literal.
Romans 8:18-23 (Concordant Literal)
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
Thanks, again!
:D
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Hi HopeinChrist,
All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?
You say that you "think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now." Is that because you think that they are going through enough suffering now? Judgement in the lake of fire is not just recieving punishment. It's main purpose is to teach righteousness.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Yes there will be those who will find correction for all their sinnful ways very tormenting, "many stripes." But I also think that there will be those eager to learn the truth and only need light correction, "few stripes." I think of John the Baptist and the phophets of the OT raised in the second resurrection, I would imagine that they will require some correction so as to overcome their carnal fleah, but maybe only a little.
But at this time judgement has begun on a few that God has chosen to prepare ahead of the rest, the Elect.
1Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
v. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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You will find that I may in fact do this from time to time as the effects of heresy that I've heard most of my life haven't fully left as of yet. Most of the time, all I need is a reminder to get back-on-track.
Well, you're definitely not alone here! We are all emptying out our closet daily. :D ;D
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Hi all.
Just came back from Nev. after a stay with my sister and brother-in-law. She mentioned her husband was considering joining a church. He has never attended anything Christian what-so-ever. He observed many good works by a church group.
So, like an idiot i talked to him. This man is 64 yrs. old and a lawyer so I never stood a chance to begin with, that's how bright I am. Dear God i mentioned the word "sin" and he about came unglued. but, thanks to training here and the holy Spirit I quickly remembered I cannot "save" anybody and I quickly reversed my tactics.
So, thanks to this thread I do not feel so bad because i said, "well, let's call it "missing the mark". I felt like I was a coward but better to let God have a go with him than me. I let the whole subject go, but i will pray for him to find the "Truth" which is Christ!
love, judy
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Hi Judy ~ welcome back...it is very difficult to learn not to take the bait...of good intentions!
Wonderful to see that Wisdom brought to you the Peace that passes understanding of the world and you ditched the baggage without causalities to your sweet heart and insight!
Arc
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The whole point here is to remember this,
Jesus died because God loves us so much, He wanted us to show us, he wanted us to SEE The Way past sin. He died so we could do the same. In Jesus, we see the full embodiment of God's character: compassionate, ultimately concerned about injustice, self-sacrificing, and unconditional.
God revealed his radical grace for all, It wasn't until I began to really understand grace: nothing we do (or don't do) will change God's love for us, When that radical truth finally started to set in, I asked, "Why? Why would God give us such grace and love for nothing in return?"
And then it hit me like a ton of bricks: so we could live fearlessly, love fearlessly, and act fearlessly for His glory with your life toward everyone. Unconditional love toward all, Both great and poor, worst sinners and good sinners alike. We are no different from that homosexual guy or that tax collector, or a thief. Once we unite, it is the Kingdom of God in perfection.
Just my two cents.
Denise
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OK i dont know if i'm being misunderstood, maybe its the way i'm writing it.
Forget the Cursing of parents. Lets forget that entirely for a second. Pretend it never even came up.
Aaron's point (the way i see it) was that in Leviticus they ordered children to die.
Aaron's point being now that Children are NO longer ordered to die in the New Testament.
The way i see it, Ray didnt address that today, we no longer order children to die. He instead talked about the other bit.
Anyway, its not really a huge deal.
Actually, all sinners are required to die, as the OT states. It's just not in the literal sense that most assume it to be:
Rev 20:12-14 ...the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I know that wasn't your main point Zander, just an observation that came to mind. :)
Thanks,
Marques