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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mrsnacks on June 16, 2007, 04:30:55 PM
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I can hear frustration in Ray's voice at times in the audio messages and in his written comments responding to emails from those who can't see. I do the same thing. I have those in Christendom who can't hear what I am saying and it is clearly in God's Word. Then frustration sets in sometimes. Do you get frustrated or annoyed ? Should we? Because if they can't see or hear until God opens their eyes and ears - why do we think it depends on us in a little way.
Maybe the word " annoyed " is too strong of a word but I admit when explaining the truths to someone - I tend to get impatient and desire for them to see what I see because God has revealed it to me.
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I know what you mean. Annoyed is a good word to use. It's simply our carnal, human mind's nature to get annoyed. It's a character flaw basically. We all do it. If anyone denies it they're lying. ;D
That's not to say we all get annoyed at the same things, but we do all get annoyed at something. Other times I get annoyed: trying to train people at my job, trying to steer my kids in the right direction, trying to save money, trying to use my broken mouse for the past couple weeks [thank God I have a new one now ;D] etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Matt
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Hi Mr Snacks,
I of course cannot speak for Ray, but I strongly believe that you are not hearing anoyance, but possibly amusement.
Here is why I say this:
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
However, God has clearly brought Ray to Christ and he would certainly be aware of what it means. :)
Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, whohave been called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
How can anyone become annoyed because those who have not been given the ears to hear, simply cannot. Ray I believe is totally detached from any personel emotion, he is simply calling it how it is given him to call.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. But only those with ears that CAN hear, no other.
This is a very important lesson for each of us. For by whose mouth are the words coming from, our own, or the Spirits? Ones reaction will answer that.
Much love to you in Christ Jesus,
Darren
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I know what you mean. Annoyed is a good word to use. It's simply our carnal, human mind's nature to get annoyed. It's a character flaw basically. We all do it. If anyone denies it they're lying. ;D
That's not to say we all get annoyed at the same things, but we do all get annoyed at something. Other times I get annoyed: trying to train people at my job, trying to steer my kids in the right direction, trying to save money, trying to use my broken mouse for the past couple weeks [thank God I have a new one now ;D] etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Matt
Great answer Matt, for this is something that I have been giving a lot of thought to. If I choose to become frustrated or annoyed, what am I really doing? The answer is simple: God why did you let that HAPPEN??? Because, if God had done what I wanted, I wouldn't need to get annoyed right? WRONG!!!! ;D
God has so graciously provided the tools and the mechanisms to overide our carnal nature, and one is being granted the eyes to see ones carnal nature for exacly what it is! Not Pretty sometimes.
I really do not believe that Ray get's annoyed to much, and if he does, then he see's it as his own failing and learns from it.
I really should not be speaking for Ray, but this is what the Spirit and Scripures teach. Am I wrong?
Love to You Brother,
Darren
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I don't want anyone here to misunderstand me. I just sense this from Ray and I do it myself but not even knowing that I do it. Maybe he was tired.
I said some things in Bible class a few weeks ago and my wife said there was frustration in my voice in trying to communicate to others there. I didn't know I sounded frustrated. The subject was free will. And I just was trying to explain that free will is a myth. That no one comes to God except he be dragged. No one chooses but He chooses us. But it seemed even with quoting scripture it goes over people's heads. They have ears but they don't hear.
The assistant pastor held up a twenty dollar bill in front of us all. And said this is a gift . One must get up and receive the gift. The gift is free he said but it doesn't become yours until you come forward and get it from me. I raised my hand and said that his analogy was flawed in a sense. Sounds good but when it comes to salvation - we aren't able to get up and even come forward to get the gift. No one is able to come. I said your analogy should be that God is holding His free gift but we are sitting with no legs to come forward or hands to grab it. We are unable and to top it off no one chooses. The unbeliever doesn't want the gift to begin with. I don't think he liked what I said. Another lady wanted to hold on to her free will and it was her that chose to come forward and used her common sense to accept Christ.
I said it is possible I am wrong. But if I am wrong - I am at least giving God the total credit in the salvation process and admitting I can do nothing. I am dead spiritually. How can a dead person do anything unless God gives him/ her life. A dead person can have 10 legs but if he is dead they won't do him any good.
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Synonyms: annoy, irritate, bother, irk, vex, provoke, aggravate, peeve, rile.
These verbs tend to mean; to disturb or disquiet a person, usually, to the point of anger.
Although, not always. However, Rile is interesting, as it implies anger that is openly displayed.
I wonder if, perhaps, Jesus was not slightly (annoyed) riled at the money-changers? Yet, without sin!
- jER
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Hi mrsnacks,
I think I know this frustration you are taking about, don't we all ;)
When your trying to explain something to somebody and they're just not getting it.
Well I was thinking about all the things I've read and experienced. I'm thinking knowledge is built layer upon layer as we are learning things and through our experiences. So we have all this data of things we have learned, our knowledge.
And then we come to BT and find out so much we thought was right and good, is not :-\ So now God is burning out what's false and putting in what's truth.
But what I was trying to get to, is how do you express to another person in words, all that it has taken you to come to an understanding of. It's frustrating, you try to may a point about something and other things keep coming into your mind. I have some a lot of difficulty with this.
I wonder how easy it will be to communicate when we are spirit :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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That's true Kat,
What some notice in a lot of the "Email to Ray", is that a LOT of them come at Ray with their own preconceived notions of the bible. Which is usually stuff "the annointed God's Man Of the Hour" shouts without any scriptural proof.
Such notions are idols of the heart that God is indeed burning out of those He chose from the beginning.
The carnal mind is truly EMNITY against God. But this won't prevail in the end.
Ches
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mrsnacks, I liked your explanation in bible class. Utterly helpless we are. People do not like to think that. They have to have some semblance of control.
No hands, no legs, not wanting the gift, God giving the gift and He and He alone GRACES us w/ the gift! We have done nothing to earn it, deserve it, or desire it. It is ALL Him!
And yet those people will cling to the" I have to get up, walk over, and grab the gift (free gift)" in order to actually get it. If I choose not then a reasonable penalty is a kabillion centuries of torture in hell.
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Duh!!! Why are we surprised when we present God's Word and it is rejected ????
Jesus told us Himself
(Mat 7:6 KJVR)
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
The reason why we get upset is because ....we have to watch the dogs and pigs trample the Word and also watch as they return to their vomit and do not like it much when we ourselves feel their bites when they turn on us.
Remember Ray is on the front line ...standing on the Word . He is bearing the brunt of direct hits. Many of us sit in the quiet of Internet space and observe. Their teeth penetrate that deep and upset us too.
I know that I do not have the temperament to handle it like Ray does.
The only blessing is that we know that God is Sovereign and
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Remember when we (spiritually are told ) to eat the scrolls we were told that they will be sweet in our mouth but bitter in the stomach.. The spiritual revelations are wonderful but we are saddened daily at the world's present blindness and deafness, and oh how all our spirits groan while we wait for the full revelation.
Rather than grumble and fret let us continue to pray in agreement with God's Will
Beloved
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Remember Ray is on the front line ...standing on the Word . He is bearing the brunt of direct hits. Many of us sit in the quiet of Internet space and observe. Their teeth penetrate that deep and upset us too.
I know that I do not have the temperament to handle it like Ray does.
Nicely stated, Beloved (Carol). The Lord has blessed Ray and equipped him well for this "spiritual" warfare.
Rene'
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Carol, that was good insight to me about the scrolls! Thanks.
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Hi mrsnacks,
I think I know this frustration you are taking about, don't we all ;)
When your trying to explain something to somebody and they're just not getting it.
Well I was thinking about all the things I've read and experienced. I'm thinking knowledge is built layer upon layer as we are learning things and through our experiences. So we have all this data of things we have learned, our knowledge.
And then we come to BT and find out so much we thought was right and good, is not :-\ So now God is burning out what's false and putting in what's truth.
But what I was trying to get to, is how do you express to another person in words, all that it has taken you to come to an understanding of. It's frustrating, you try to may a point about something and other things keep coming into your mind. I have some a lot of difficulty with this.
I wonder how easy it will be to communicate when we are spirit :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
I think that the frustration is the beast in me. I believe it is pride that I am right and they are wrong, and they should be force to acknowledge it. It seem that if I was more like Jesus I should be able to either walk away or help them with out becoming frustrated.
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Hi rvhill,
I guess there could be different degrees of frustration someone could feel.
It seems you make be referring to the discontented, embittered, resentful kind.
Whereas someone else may be talking about being disappointed or unfulfilled in trying to talk to someone who is blind about the truth.
These are all words that define frustration, but are at different ends of the sentiment.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi rvhill,
I guess there could be different degrees of frustration someone could feel.
It seems you make be referring to the discontented, embittered, resentful kind.
Whereas someone else may be talking about being disappointed or unfulfilled in trying to talk to someone who is blind about the truth.
These are all words that define frustration, but are at different ends of the sentiment.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
No that is not what I mean. no matter how small the voice of frustration is I still think it is the beast.
1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
1Co 13:6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
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Hi rvhill,
I think I see what your getting at.
I was thinking that being disappointed that someone did not see what you were saying, was not a negetive emotion.
But any degree of frustration we show, would not be a positive emotion, because God works all things through us.
So if we are frustrated, it is actually with God and what He is doing through us :-\
And looking at it like that, I can see it is the beast.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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I have a lot of family members that I led into the pentecostal religion. I was someone they looked up to for biblical advice and one whom was very respected from those that followed into the church after I joined. I spent two years in that system, always questioning everything and being rebuked for my curiosity and doubtfulness. Ray's teaching was the nudge I needed to get out of there, becuase I knew everything was wrong I just couldnt put my finger on it. I couldn't prove it indefinitely. I feel responsible for my family members who are struggling fanancially and giving away money that they could use. So yea it ANNOYS me very much. I love my family very much and I just wish they would see things for what they are. Church gives them a sense of security, and even if it is wrong they will not let go. I dont think this annoyance is rooted from hatred or anger, but more from compassion and love. I just wish God would one day use me to lead them out of the mess that I helped them get into. In the meantime prayer and faith is what I have, I am just glad they are not in danger of eternal hell fire. Then I would act in desperation.
Roy
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Is annoyance really from the beast within ? Isn' t it a good thing to be annoyed about the right things ? Things that are not righteous. Isn't it also a good thing to be frustrated ? Aren't these things a barometer of us spiritually ? A willingness to have all we come in contact with to get the truth of what God is saying.
Wasn't Jesus annoyed when He spoke to the Pharisees and said what He said to them. Or at times with His own disciples when they didn't get it especially in the garden when the Lord caught them sleeping. How about Paul in Athens seeing all the idols. He was distressed. I think Kat had it right. There are different degrees of frustration. I am sure if all here were to sit at the average church service every Sunday we all would feel the frustration to a certain degree.
Someone mentioned Ray being on the front lines. In a sense I agree and disagree. In a way we all are. Yes Ray gets hit with emails but we would all to if we had our own site. Many here may not be ready to have a site or may not be called to. Others I think are really in the front lines where their lives are at stake. Being a believer in China or in an Arab country can get your head removed. At least on the net it is just words. But words do hurt.
I see it as we are in God's army. In a battle there are ones that are sent in the front lines of battle. Others are in the air force and bomb from above. Still others are in different positions during the battle. Reinforcement troops if needed. Doctors and nurses. There are those who make the weapons from the factories. Leaders who plan out strategies and ones responsible for food deliveries etc.
My point is each aspect is important. You are in a position that is unique. We are all a light unto the world.
Wherever we are we are to let our light ( Jesus ) shine where there is darkness. We are the salt as well.
Speaking the truth in love. But BT is a great place. A bootcamp to train us in the truths of God. A place of fellowship. It is preparing us fro what is ahead.
I sat in Bible Sunday school and church today. IT was really hard. I just don't want to go. God has used me to reach a few already. But most see the Scriptures as stories. Stories for us to learn from. LIke a history lesson. And then it is legalism. God says do this and don't do that and that we all need to trust Him more and pray more and do more for God. Same old same old. The message is we need to be better christians.
We would be if we would all be more like Christ and with His help we all can be. That is the message today from Christendom. The message is smile to the person next to you and tell them God loves them or give your tithes and God will pour out a blessing a hundred fold. Hearing this every Sunday morning and Sunday school is weighing on me. When I do speak out it is like speaking Chinese. No one understands.
I told my wife I really don't want to go anymore. IT is like sitting in a closed garage while the car inside there is running. The fumes will harm your health and eventually kill you. The fumes are the false teachings. The garage is the institutional church. The car the preacher. I want to turn off the car but don't have the keys. So what do I do ? Get out of the garage.
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Snacks,
What's happening to you now has happened to allot of us here. I sounds like God is calling you out of babylon. :)
Craig
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I have been called out a long time ago really. I never fit in. This time I have attended this church long enough to have been used by God to reach a few. And now that they have been reached I think it is time for me to not go. It is just killing me to sit through the sermons and teachings. And it can't be healthy spiritually to hear all the false teachings. I stayed for the sake of the few. I knew there were a few going that something was not right within themselves. I sensed it from them and a great relationship based on truth came from that. But I think the rest ( I may be wrong ) are happy in Babylon. They love the legalism. They love free will. They think they see and are not blind. I feel sad about the whole thing.
You know many years ago I used to think I wasn't a Christian really because I just couldn't sit through watching TBN or listen to Christian talk radio. It would make me sick. There were families I knew at the time that would have TBN on 24 hours a day practically. I guess Pharisees love being Pharisees.
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You know many years ago I used to think I wasn't a Christian really because I just couldn't sit through watching TBN or listen to Christian talk radio. It would make me sick. There were families I knew at the time that would have TBN on 24 hours a day practically. I guess Pharisees love being Pharisees.
Hey Snacks, I totally 100% understand. I've been there! But be careful because the people you can't reach really can't help it. That's the annoying part. That's the frustrating part. They may seem to enjoy their way, but do they really? Did you when you were part of it?
I've sat out of church for a long time. Once in a while I go to appease my wife. Next Sunday I may go because my brother in law is preaching. They think it's disrespect if I don't go. Ugh!
Anyway, my wife goes almost every week. Yesterday she came home and told me about her experience. I guess the youth group led the worship [or song] service. I heard that they were so annointed, that you could feel the presence of God, that it was just beautiful. Was it? I'm not sure because I wasn't there. Can you ever feel the presence of God in church? If so, why? Why would you be able to in a place where they're doing it all wrong? Is it psychological? Is it real? I don't know because I wasn't there, but she's pushing to pull me back in, and I'm resisting as kindly as I can. :)
But yeah back on topic here. :-[ I know you want to help as many as you can, but if it's bogging you down then church is no place for you bro. You won't do any good unless God has it in His will to use you for that purpose. Does He? If I were a betting man I'd say no, because how many get called out? Few. How many have you reached? You said a few.
So I'm just saying basically in a nutshell after getting long winded like I do sometimes, that you have no reason for any guilt if you pull out of there. I sense guilt and frustration, which is totally understandable, but it's also unnecessary man. You will have done nothing wrong if you don't go back.
You can only do so much before it becomes futile. We can't shove it down their throats. They have to seek it. We plant seeds, but we can't control the weather. :)
IMHO
Matt
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I don't get that one. Feeling the presence of God. God dwells in us. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Why is it that your wife claims to feel the presence when one goes to the temple or building where God says He doesn't dwell in ? And why didn't she feel His presence on the way to the building when He is living inside her?
How does one know it is God's presence as opposed to the warm fuzzies. I get the warm fuzzies and feel great when being at a concert. Feelings are a poor criteria of truth. God never tells us to go by our feelings. Paul and the other disciples never said Jesus is true because we feel His presence. Where does it say in the Scriptures that one needs to go to the building to feel the presence of God ? It doesn't say "you will feel the truth and it will set you free. "
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I don't get that one. Feeling the presence of God. God dwells in us. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Why is it that your wife claims to feel the presence when one goes to the temple or building where God says He doesn't dwell in ? And why didn't she feel His presence on the way to the building when He is living inside her?
How does one know it is God's presence as opposed to the warm fuzzies. I get the warm fuzzies and feel great when being at a concert. Feelings are a poor criteria of truth. God never tells us to go by our feelings. Paul and the other disciples never said Jesus is true because we feel His presence. Where does it say in the Scriptures that one needs to go to the building to feel the presence of God ? It doesn't say "you will feel the truth and it will set you free. "
This is not God they are "feeling." How do you know what God feels like? Does evil not feel good sometimes? Do the scriptures describe this feeling? If so where? Does not music you like make you feel good sometimes or feel peace or feel relaxed or whatever? I went to a pentecostal church and in there people would faint, shake, dance in the spirit, etc. I have never seen anyone do this outside of their comfort zone within the temple or church. God is not ashamed of His works and would do it everywhere. These feelings are not necessarily the feeling of being spirit filled, but the mind giving itself some sense of accomplishment or satisfaction or purpose without really doing anything. These feelings are carnal and should be treated as such. I don't want to generalize, so let me say that this may not be the case ALL the time. Only God Knows what goes through these peoples head.
Roy
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Good point. I recall the pastor saying to the congregation - how can anyone just sit there and not be excited about praising the Lord.Let us a give the Lord a huge hand clap. The whole church went bananas and I just sat there. He was obviously talking about me indirectly. Just because I don't dance and shout and say a bunch of amens I am not into it. I was worshipping the Lord in silence.
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Snacks and Roy, I agree with ya!
Matt
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Great thread!
Good point. I recall the pastor saying to the congregation - how can anyone just sit there and not be excited about praising the Lord.Let us a give the Lord a huge hand clap. The whole church went bananas and I just sat there. He was obviously talking about me indirectly. Just because I don't dance and shout and say a bunch of amens I am not into it. I was worshipping the Lord in silence.
I used to sit in church silently too. I always felt odd when everyone else around me was shouting. I mean, why were they shouting? I will admit, one day last week I was overcome by emotion while talking to God and sitting in my car, but honestly, I think I was having a mini-breakdown at the time. ;)
As for the youth group singing and feeling the presence of God in church, sometimes I have heard a voice so beautiful that I get shivers and hearing a voice like that, it feels like a gift from God. Maybe that's what they felt.
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When Jesus taught and preached, can you really picture a bunch of believers jumping up and down and saying amen ? Dancing in the streets and hollering "Come on Teacher" and raising their hands . It is not that I am condemning that behavior or outburst but it just seems out of place. Like a sports rally. Why isn't there one Jesus film that shows that pentecostal emotional display ? This is Jesus talking and not some pastor out of Bible school. And then what gets me is you hear the speaking in tongues with no interpretation. Like the preacher will say a few phrases in tongues out of emotion and I am sitting here going - what the heck was that ? What did he mean by that ? :o
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And then what gets me is you hear the speaking in tongues with no interpretation. Like the preacher will say a few phrases in tongues out of emotion and I am sitting here going - what the heck was that ? What did he mean by that ?
Totally! I saw some videos a while back of Kenneth Copeland and some other "famous" preacher, and they were supposedly overcome with "holy laughter", it was the most hysterical creepy laughter I've ever heard. Then they were barking like dogs on the floor, and of course, blabbering in jibberish. It scared the heebie jeebies out of me! The whole audience was getting into it...and I thought, what would a non-believer think if he stumbled on a scene like that....he'd think these people were stark raving mad!!! How does this edify believers, or glorify God??
Absolutely bizarre displays of the flesh!
Peace,
Diana
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Here's a thought that automatically comes to my mind on this:
Maybe the word " annoyed " is too strong of a word but I admit when explaining the truths to someone - I tend to get impatient and desire for them to see what I see because God has revealed it to me.
Maybe you have been given to have love for your neighbor... You want very much for them to receive the gift that you have been given because you've experienced it yourself. The gift of eyes that see, ears that hear, and a heart to understand. You want very much to give that gift, too. That is Love...
The "annoyance" we feel is probably a mixture of the Love I mentioned with something else, too. But I believe its bases comes from Love. For many of us, it is also God reinforcing within each of us the lesson that only he can drag us to him and open our eyes, ears and heart.
It is Love...
Thoughts? Comments? ???
\/\/ard
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From 1 Corinthians 1 Paul writes
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That NO flesh should glory in his presence.
The annoyance probably springs from God's discerning spirit that the last verse here about NO flesh glorying in His presence. Much of what goes on is sadly the flesh of people expressing themselves or rather "showing out". Not always, but when you see such mannerisms and cringe. That, to me, is why we get annoyed because of the immaturity that is encouraged in Bablyon.
Ches
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Yes! lol!,
U put it Xactly right mrsnacks, annoying! lol! But! I cant xsplain it eitha bcoz 2 me its jus so plain 2 c, & all dey do is try 2 put other ideas 2 dis & d@ lol! :D I so no wot ur sayn lol!, But! its jus in us 2 feel like we do, But! yep jus nO GOD is in Control, AlwayZ!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. yea! Roy I nO where ur cumin frm az well dude, Ive led a few 2 & now Im like um!.. ??? lol!, Lets jus Trust in GOD brother, takecaRe! Peace!