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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Nelson Boils on August 07, 2019, 07:47:26 PM
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Hi All,
Matthew 27:46"And about three Jesus called out loudly: “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabacthani” — that is to say, ‘O my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?"
Is there a place where Ray discussed this verse?
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Couldn't find anywhere Ray might have said something about this, but check out Psalm 22 to fill in the gaps.
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This is a very small portion of a study I did a while back. Maybe it will benefit you in some way Rolihlahla.
What Jesus said does fullfill prophesy but it does not get to the meaning behind the words Jesus spoke. Why those specific words?
Isaiah 53
4
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
This scripture speaks to the heart of those words Jesus spoke in his final moments before humbling himself unto death.
We considered him punished and stricken by his own God. Those specific words were only to fullfill prophecy, and not because Jesus believed for one second his Father had abandoned him. Even on the cross he continued to do his fathers will, because the Father was with him every step of the way to comfort him in his extreme suffering. I get great comfort in knowing, although Jesus surely suffered, he was never for one minute alone in any of it. I'm also greatly encouraged from this fact, knowing if at some point I have to go through some extreme physical suffering , I'm comforted by knowing I will not have to endure it on my own either.
In addition we see in Luke that Jesus speaks of the prophesies that must be fullfilled.
Luke 24:44,
[So Jesus] said to them, "These [are] the words which I spoke to you, while I was with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the Psalms, concerning me."
Again in an example from John is that Jesus is hanging on the cross, and he cries out: I'm thirsty, and we read the reason Jesus said he was thirsty wasn't so much because he was thirsty, but because he wanted to fulfill the Scripture.
my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21). John understood that Jesus was conscious of fulfilling scripture. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst (John 19:28).
Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit (John 19:29-30).
A study on this one subject can keep anyone busy for many hours,, with illuminating results.
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Found this email exchange.
How are you doing Ray? Blessed I believe.
>
> I really appreciate the research that you have submitted yourself to under
> GOD's hand. I'm striving for such myself, (no flattery intended). I don't
> yet consider myself learned, but I'm aware of the holy spirits work in my
> life. I have a question for you if you will?, I have been hearing for a
> long time that when Jesus died on the cross he was seperated from the
> father, i don't find that in the scriptures atleast not in the sense that
> they are suggesting. They (ministers) constantly say that GOD turned his
> back on Jesus on the cross, I disagree with that... Jesus said I and the
> father are one. Even as Paul said i am convinced that nothing shall seperate
> us from the Love of GOD. Even though Jesus did go to the place of Sheol,
> how is it possible for him to take the keys from the Devil without authority
> upon hi gh, for without the spirit of GOD who is Jesus? There is another
> issue bothering me how they say Jesus said "Father why hast though forsaken
> me...?" which ties into the first question...Jesus was constantly aware, all
> through the gospel you hear him saying "its not my time yet," "Its not my
> time". If Jesus knew the intentions of GOD doesn't it seem like doubt for
> him to ask why have you forsaken me, considering that he was completely
> aware what the Fathers will was, and what was going to happen? Or was that
> the whole purpose of him saying it, to get us to identify with the
> sepration? Cause to me that seems like something the devil would say not
> GOD.
> Directly after he said that statement, He screamed and there was and
> earthquake, like something in the spirit realm took place, and then he says
> like it was nothing "It is done..." I think theres something else behind
> tha t But i don't believe for a second GOD turned his back on His only
> Begotten son, am I am wrong on this?
>
> May GOD further you...
No, David, neither do I believe that God "turned HIs back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
God be with you,
Ray
Jesus, being crucified, identifies Himself as the Messiah in His usual way with the religious of His day--with just a snippet of Spiritual words to be Spiritually discerned. They clearly had no clue what He was aiming at. Even among some "universalists", spiritual understanding of His statement is lacking. The rest of the 22nd Psalm is what those who knew it should have discerned from his statement, if they had had the Spiritual mind.
A bit more: The very next Psalm is the very famous 23rd Psalm which common Christianity has essentially turned into "Jesus makes me feel better...sorry about you."
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Good day brothers and sisters
I was just wondering regarding this subject,the scripture Matt 27:46 .
What has Christianity taught on this over the years ?
I was on my walk this morning and thinking about Jesus on the cross and wondering
if Christians believe that God forsook His son and if that is what is taught in the churches
or if it is taught at all?
Thankyou
In Christ Pamela
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Pamela -
This is what Billy Grahm taught, and many others teach the same.
The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. It was the agony of hell.
I've read bible commentators who hold to this view that Jesus became sin for us and therefore his Father had to forsake him because God cannot stand sin. I think this idea comes from 2 Corinthians 5:21, in the NIV and KJV, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God.”
Another translation
2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
Big difference in Jesus being sin verses being a sin offering.
Heb 4:15 KJV - 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
John 16:32
“You [disciples] will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.”
2 Corinthians 5:19
“To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
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Thank you Wanda
I finished reading Rays transcript, Was Christ Made Sin and Ray blows
the false teachings out of the water.
This is from The Fathers Will transcript.
Jesus Christ accomplished many, many things.I just want to cover three giant things He accomplished as a human being.
1) I have overcome the world(John16:33). As a human being He overcame all the pulls of the world.
2) For even hereunto were ye called; because Christ also suffered FOR US leaving us an example,
and ye should FOLLOW HIS STEPS; WHO DID NO SIN, neither was there guile(deceit) found in
His mouth. (1 Peter 2: 21-22).
3) Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world
according to the will of God and our Father. (Gal.1:4)
The will of the Father is the one who really loved the Father of humanity, Jesus Christ,
the Creator of heaven and earth and the human race.
All praise and glory to Our Saviour, Our Lord and God , Jesus Christ .
In Christ Pamela
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So, if I understand well, NO ONE HERE ON THIS FORUM has never felt this feeling of being abandoned by God???????
As Jesus is the only mediator who can understand our sufferings as human flesh, NO ONE is able to say "Oh yes I have thought about this also"???? But I only hear answers with cold words, heartless words echoing religeous lessons they have learned in human books?
Are we all as hypocrits as those Worldwide Christians saying that it was ONLY meant to fulfill the prophecy?????
I mean, hello there, we know we are in flesh, and for this Reason, Paramount Reason, we know exactly what Jesus felt on the cross when He asks God why He had abandoned Him!!!!! BECAUSE we exactly asked/ask the same question when we went/go throught very hard times!!!
Isn't that the proof Christ, Our Lord and Savior, IS TOTALLY ABLE to understand our sufferings and intercede for us with Our Heavenly Father? Stop searching absolutly for the psalm or verse that would respond to your wonderings. Look at your heart first, remembering how fleshly we are, and then remember God's Word:
"15 Jesus understands every weakness of ours, because he was tempted in every way that we are. But HE DID NOT SIN [like us]! 16 So whenever we are in need [that means practically Always, let's be clear about it], we should come
bravely before the throne of our merciful God [meditating on His word, like Jesus did when remembering Psalm 22]. There we will be treated with undeserved kindness, and we will find help." (Hebrews 4:15-16)
Hasn't Jesus taken all of the sin of the world when He was on cross? This doubt, isn't it a message for us to understand what sin can create in us? A remoteness from God? When we sin, we go so far away from His Glory, like the lost son (Luke 15:11-32).
Of course the prophecy was to be fulfill, but remember we have to be His testimony, and Jesus is the First testimony above all. THE ALPHA;
What was He saying after all on the cross? Read Matthew 7:23 in the positive way: "I KNOW YOU, COME CLOSER TO ME YOU GOD'S CHILDREN". Jesus knows us. He knows our flaws, our weaknesses, our fears, because He has felt those while on earth, wether Inside His Flesh (without in any ways sinning like us) or looking at the mob (with much pity) surrounding Him.
We cannot relegate this feeling of being abandoned by God with words, but we must understand it with ours feelings, for we have already all experienced it. We asked/ask exactly the same question, and hypocrit is the one who would tell the contrary.
Every day we are tempted to ask this question. Every day we claim for justice about those who bully us or our brothers and sisters. And each day we wait for a concrete answer. What concrete answer?
What Jesus tells us, is that HOPE is the key. Let me tell you a secret: WE WON'T HAVE AN ANSWER STRAIGHT AWAY!!!! In psalm 22, when David glorifies God for answering to him, you can consider this answer has taken maybe months even years before God gave an answer to David's complaints!!!
Let's be patient. That's the message of "why did you abandoned me". PATIENCE. WAIT. WAIT WHILE IT'S LOADING. WAIT WHILE BUFFERING. You know how it works. It is not a network problem. It is just that "There is a time for everything" (Ecclesiastes 3:1), according to God's marvelous plan. And we, miserable humans, cannot realize the entire scale of this divine plan. That's what Jesus taught us on the cross saying "Eloi Eloi Lamma Sabachtani".
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So, if I understand well, NO ONE HERE ON THIS FORUM has never felt this feeling of being abandoned by God???????
As Jesus is the only mediator who can understand our sufferings as human flesh, NO ONE is able to say "Oh yes I have thought about this also"???? But I only hear answers with cold words, heartless words echoing religeous lessons they have learned in human books?
Are we all as hypocrits as those Worldwide Christians saying that it was ONLY meant to fulfill the prophecy?????
I mean, hello there, we know we are in flesh, and for this Reason, Paramount Reason, we know exactly what Jesus felt on the cross when He asks God why He had abandoned Him!!!!! BECAUSE we exactly asked/ask the same question when we went/go throught very hard times!!!
My words
Even on the cross he continued to do his fathers will, because the Father was with him every step of the way to comfort him in his extreme suffering. I get great comfort in knowing, although Jesus surely suffered, he was never for one minute alone in any of it. I'm also greatly encouraged from this fact, knowing if at some point I have to go through some extreme physical suffering , I'm comforted by knowing I will not have to endure it on my own either.
You'll get no argument from me that Jesus endured great suffering, but even so, I cannot believe Jesus felt abandoned by his father for one second. I can say this because of my own experiences in suffering many things that I could not have endured had I not put all my trust in him to deliver me from my pain and suffering. Once I came to know and understand the one true God, I've not experienced the feeling of being abandoned by God at any time.. I've not endured extreme physical pain, as Jesus did, but I have faith to believe I would never be abandoned to endure it alone if I was to suffer in a physical way. My past sufferings have given me great faith in God to sustain me unto my physical death.
Think of Jesus words here.
John 16:32
“You [disciples] will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.”
These are not some random empty words Jesus spoke here. They are words of truth and have great conviction. They are also a testimony from Jesus, as a truth given us in faith, that like Jesus, we are never alone no matter what trials we may ever be faced with.
As a person in the flesh I can identify with everyone who suffers, and some on a very deep and personal level, but I don't have to suffer the thoughts I've been abandoned to do that. My testimony to others would be my own suffering and how God never for one second abandoned me through any of it.
Imagine what a testimony to the world that would be, if the son of God would declare publically that he believed his father had truly abandoned him in his greatest time of need.
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Dear Michelle,
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point here. I'll carefully meditate on your words.
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Jesus, being crucified, identifies Himself as the Messiah in His usual way with the religious of His day--with just a snippet of Spiritual words to be Spiritually discerned. They clearly had no clue what He was aiming at. Even among some "universalists", spiritual understanding of His statement is lacking. The rest of the 22nd Psalm is what those who knew it should have discerned from his statement, if they had had the Spiritual mind.
Matt 27
41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
Yet we see in Psalm 22: 11-19
David is undeterred by the jeers of his enemies, as is Jesus while on the cross. Which is obvious by his continued prayer to his Father, to the end of His life (Luke 23:46).
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Just a little snippet here to try to address the thoughts offered.
When we are called to faith, to believe, we are given an "earnest" of the faith that Jesus had. That could be just like a down payment from the Father to get our attention. A promise of things to come. Then as we exercise that little bit of faith it grows and matures and becomes more reassuring to each of us. With some it seems to grow quickly and with others it takes years due to their personal circumstances AND due to God's time table for each person.
In the instance of Jesus, who was conceived in faith and had the holy spirit of God from conception all the while he was developing as a young man there was a distinct difference. Jesus was the only begotten son of God.
We on the other hand are the "adopted sons of God" the children of promise and members of Jesus' body.
So then my supposition is that Jesus, who's faith saves us, had to have perfect faith in his Father's love. That is the reason that we all will be saved and are saved by Jesus' faith and not by our own.
Do we imagine that Jesus could have endured so great affliction without the full faith in God's word to resurrect him?
I feel safe in saying that NONE of us have or will ever have while mortal, the faith required for salvation, but we can have eventually the faith to believe that God, through the faith of His only begotten son, will save us. And yet even that much faith comes only as a free gift of God in God's own timing.
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In my own situation I feel confident in saying that I am comfortable with my fate. I don't know how much I may have to suffer before I die and I may cry out in pain or from loss of a loved one, but I don't fear death the way I once did.
Now I can welcome it... :)
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2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
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1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Mystery and Victory
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
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God never abandons His children. It's rather us that would abandon Him, like the lost son, but Always is Our Father Calling us back by His grace.
I would say that it's truely a shocking thing to hear Jesus asking this question "Why did you abandon me?", but we know, of course, He never doubted then that His beloved Father was with Him every second of this quite painful moment. Jesus is perfect as God is perfect.
I have identified myself in this question some times, when fear had taken over me, for yes there are still moments of weakness when I fear my small boat would be shipwrecked...but then I turn my poor self to God's powerfull Word and everything become instantly calm again, with the insurance God never abandons me.
This is my battle. And maybe you, blessed ones, don't go through this kind of fight. May I remind I am yet a spiritual baby?
And the funny thing is I asked Our Heavenly Father few days before Rolihlahla posted this thread to give me a deeper understanding of this question Jesus asked Him on the cross (without forgetting the fact that the prophecy was to be fulfilled).
And there it is: God answers me through you, brothers and sisters, with all the wisdom He gave you by His grace. Wonderful! And thank you.
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One question: have you noticed the verb tense in greek for "why HAVE you ABANDONED me" is AORIST tense?
Ray spoke about this aorist tense, particularly in the Lake Of Fire series. I found this in Lake 12:
"Now then, did God plan to call these sons? Did He have it all worked out in advance? Is there any chance of failure in bringing these Sons to glory? Let's read it:
For whom He [GOD] did FOREKNOW, He also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to THE IMAGE [Remember Gen. 1:26- "Let us make man in OUR IMAGE..."] of HIS SON, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did PREDESTINATE, them He also CALLED; and whom He called, them He also JUSTIFIED: and whom He justified, them He also GLORIFIED" (Rom. 8:29-30).
It should be noted that the verbs in this verse are in the Greek aorist tense and should more properly be translated, PREDESTINATES, CALLS, JUSTIFIES, AND GLORIFIES. This is not a past and completed act only, but a continuous process into the future."
And further in this Lake 12, Ray tells this:
"Creating man in God's image:
King James Version : "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God creat ed man in His own image, in the image of God creat ed He him; make and female creat ed He them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).
Concordant Version : "And saying is the Alueim [Hebrew: elohiym, gods or used of the supreme God--plural of elowahh, a deity or the Deity] , Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness... And creat ing is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He create s it. Male and female He create s them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).
So we see here the same thing we have already discussed with regards to the Greek aorist tense of verbs, as in "For God so lov ED the world" versus "For thus God lovES the world." God's love for the world CONTINUES! And creat ing man in God's image also CONTINUES!"
So it seems like, when we read Matthew 27:46 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken" we should instead read:"Why ARE you FORSAKING me" if it is a continuing process?
But this abandonment by God, could it be a continuing process for the old man Inside of us, the beast that must be destroyed, the carnality that must perish?
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Thank you Michelle for the replies to our efforts to help.
One other explanation that comes to mind is as follows.
In a more human context consider the feelings of a father of a little boy who
could save a whole nation from destruction by yielding his only son to an enemy.
When Jesus was suffering for us, the Father who loves His son more than anything...
had to watch it take place and God being full of all power in the creation God had to turn
his back on or forsake His own first son in order that Jesus could actually die.
Because if Jesus had not died, for us, then all of God's plans were a failure and that could not happen.
Didn't Jesus know that about his Father? Surely Jesus did...!
Was it also a test for us to observe and record so as to come to believe that God would resurrect us??
I don't believe that Jesus was disappointed in his Father's plan to save humanity. Forsaking Jesus was necessary.
It was just that the statement had to be made publicly to emphasize the gravity of the act that God did to prove to doubtful mankind that God loved/loves us completely...
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Forsake
abandon (someone or something).
"he would never forsake Tara"
synonyms: abandon, desert, leave, quit, depart from, leave behind, leave high and dry, turn one's back on, cast aside, give up, reject, disown; More
renounce or give up (something valued or pleasant).
Friend Bob,
If you look.at any of these words you can clearly see they are not the best words in describing the Fathers position in his sons suffering.
I look at it in the sense the Father placed himself in the position of having to rely on the natural progression of his son's death, just as we have to do when someone we love is dying. We don't abandon , desert or quit on our loved ones as they are dying. No, we love, comfort and give them our all, to insure they never feel alone during that time.
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Michele
The fact you turn to God in those times of fear shows a great deal of spiritual maturity. You've come to know and trust that you need him when the waters are rough and your little boat seems no match in such threatening conditions.
I can never say I don't have fear.of things, and if I did I would certainly be a hypocrite. What I do when fear starts to overcome me is draw even closer to our Lord, knowing without his help I'm doomed to overcome it myself. The old man me, would never have turned to God in those dark times, and as a result I experienced much fear and anxiety. We are all in a perpetual state of dying to something and in great need of support, comfort and assurance we are not alone.
Something tells me by the time we actually are faced with our literal and physicall deaths, we will be filled with God's love and holy spirit in a way we've never experienced before.
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We have learned through Ray's teachings that it pleased God the Father to bruise him for our sake.
I found this email that may add to the discussion.
I am reading Ray's paper WHY DOES GOD LOVE YOU?
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm
Why should submitting His Son to a brutal beating and crucifixion "please Him?"
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when You shall make His soul an offering [death on the cross] for sin" (Isaiah 53:10)
The Hebrew word translated "bruise" means: "to crumble; beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite" (Strong's Hebrew Lexicon). Read that again... Think about that for a few minutes... How could such human devastation, depravation, and cruel degradation, to One's only Son possibly "PLEASE" His Father? God had to know that what He was doing would not produce the slightest failure. Such an unfathomable sacrifice could only be justified if it produced 100% total success and perfection.
God was not taking a chance by sacrificing His Son "while" we were yet sinners, "before" we ever repented, because God knows that salvation is totally in His hands and not in the hands of humanity. If repentance, conversion, and salvation was up to us, God could not be sure that one single person would ever repent and be saved.
I recalled watching this short movie, Most - The Bridge, several years ago about a father's ultimate sacrifice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoQJI5HTSss
What I didn't appreciate at the time was the fact that all passengers on the train are saved and how much more poignant the parallel is to the gospel.
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Well said Wanda, thanks for sharing.
Bob
Forsake
abandon (someone or something).
"he would never forsake Tara"
synonyms: abandon, desert, leave, quit, depart from, leave behind, leave high and dry, turn one's back on, cast aside, give up, reject, disown; More
renounce or give up (something valued or pleasant).
Friend Bob,
If you look.at any of these words you can clearly see they are not the best words in describing the Fathers position in his sons suffering.
I look at it in the sense the Father placed himself in the position of having to rely on the natural progression of his son's death, just as we have to do when someone we love is dying. We don't abandon , desert or quit on our loved ones as they are dying. No, we love, comfort and give them our all, to insure they never feel alone during that time.
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Thanks Heidi,
Any day we can talk about the love of God, is a happy day for me.
Great video ☺
Every time I read this teaching from Ray something new Jumps out at me. This time it was what he said here -
Ray
Yes, Jesus loved Paul as He saw he would BE after He struck him down on the road to Damascus. THAT'S the "Paul" that Jesus loved, not the "SAUL" that was slaughtering and persecuting His followers.
The Father loves each one of us for who we will be, when his work is complete in us.
My understanding of this excerpt of Why Does God Love You. A couple different translations of Isaiah 53:10
Isaiah 53 ESV
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 53:10 CLV
10 yet Yahweh desires to crush Him, and He causes Him to be wounded. Should you place His soul for a guilt approach, He shall see a seed. He shall lengthen His days, and the desire of Yahweh shall prosper in His hand."
We know what God wills is always good and pleasing to him , because of the desired outcome We read from the Creation account in Genesis, that after completing a creation God would say, and it was good. The Father was pleased with his work, just as he was pleased with the perfect sacrifice. A sacrifice that would ultimately complete the creation of man, when All are in All with the Father. but we should not confuse this to mean the Father got pleasure from his sons immerse suffering. And we should also not forget, Jesus willingly laid down his life to save All, for who we are yet to be.
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Thanks for the responses.
Yesterday I was angry at Him,very angry,then today He inspired me to pray to for forgiveness regarding my attitude towards Him.
I am currently going through a tough time,and I constantly have to wrestle the thought of feeling like He abandonS me.I get happy,then frustrated as to why,then I thank Him for taking me throug such a testing time as it will produce spiritual strength,then I get frustrated...and happy then frustrated..and and and...a constant wrestle.
What is frustrating (or scary)at times about Him,is that He is so unpredictable (His ways).You move one mountain,as you still celebrating the victory..then BOOM!! Another bigger mountain to test one's faith arrives.
29 “Come,” said Jesus. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water, and came toward Jesus.
30 But when he saw the strength of the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
31 Immediately Jesus reached out His hand and took hold of Peter. “You of little faith,” He said, “why did you doubt?”
I try not to pay attention to the wind, circumstances, as it gets me frustrated.
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Wanda, you said: "but we should not confuse this to mean the Father got pleasure from his sons immerse suffering. And we should also not forget, Jesus willingly laid down his life to save All, for who we are yet to be."
I totally agree and thank you for pointing that out so that no misunderstanding happens. It was necessary and Jesus did do it willingly. He knew when he said, "it is done" what was to happen.
Wow, even that makes me love Him more! What an awesome Saviour. Imagine if we were to know the hour and date and time?
Heidi
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You move one mountain,as you still celebrating the victory..then BOOM!! Another bigger mountain to test one's faith arrives.
I agree with the above statement. The art for me now is seeing and experiencing the times of blessings and peace.
He does restore your resolve to not give up and to get back up for the next round. This is how we learn to grow and overcome.
May it never stop. That is my biggest fear, that He stops disciplining me by teaching. May his grace continue in all our lives.
Heidi
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What is frustrating (or scary)at times about Him,is that He is so unpredictable (His ways).You move one mountain,as you still celebrating the victory..then BOOM!! Another bigger mountain to test one's faith arrives.
I'm sure everyone reading these words can identify with you. If we have learned anything from Gods truth, it's that we will all walk through fire in this physical life.
Every situation is different, but there is one thing that helps me get through times like this, is to mentally make note of every single blessing I've been given. Even the little ones I might tend to cast aside.
Do I have shelter, food, my health a means to pay for my needs, not my wants. I started thanking God every day for what he has provided for me this day. I think of my brothers in Christ, from biblical times, and how many of them suffered in ways we cannot imagine, to do God's will. Let's really concider how our Christ Jesus suffered his intire short life, with an end being so horrific, A suffering almost to hard to speak of it hurts so much. Considering things outside of ourselves, that can bring some real perspective to our lives is always in my opinion helpful.
Our victory is that God chose us for a very important work in his kingdom, how amazing is that? He's training spiritual warriors for the great work ahead.
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Rolihlahla,
We must be Walking in the same part of the desert at this moment, because firstlly some days before you posted this thread I was asking the same question to God « Why did Jesus told this ???? » and then here it is, you asked the same question that was twisting my brain ! Truely, we all are part of the same body : Christ’s body !
Secondly, tonight ( because it’s actrually 1 a.m here in France) I couldn’t sleep, and felt like reading the book of Revelation.
So I take the Bible and open it anywhere on Revelation. I fall on Chapter 12.
The spouse, described as clothed with the sun, the moon Under her feet, a crown of Twelve stars on her head. I said to myself : what a glory, isn’t it ?
Then boom : her great pain giving Birth, and furthermore : the dragon waiting to devour the child she’s about to deliver.
But : what a child ! Who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter, and above all, this son finds itself to be with God : what a Glory, isn’t it ?
And then boom ! the woman lands into the wilderness. But : God didn’t abandon her : He prepared a place there for her, and she is taken care of. Special divine place :
What a Glory, isn’t it ?
Well… « War broke out in Heaven »……. But the dragon looses the war against Michael and his angels and « Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah ». Heaven :1, Dragon :0. What a Glory, isn’t it ?
Boom n°4 I’m afraid : The dragon pursues the male child’s mother. But can’t catch her. She was given the two wings of a great eagle and she fled where the serpent could not reach her. What a Glory, isn’t it ?
Yes, another boom : « Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. »
Not this time, serpent : The earth intervenes in the battle and helps the woman by swallowing all the waters the dragon had spewed out of his mouth !
Isn’t it Glorious ?
Last boom, right before the end of chapter 12. Enraged dragon decides to make war against the rest of the woman’s offspring « those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus », with the deceiving beasts. But there comes the Lamb with the 144,000 singing a new song, and « no lie was found in their mouths ; they are blameless ». GLORIOUS !
Ray taught us that the book of Revelation is a constant reminder of the tribulations God’s elects shall come through. And the way I see it is like you said : Victory, then boom another bigger mountain arrives. It comes quickly. Like a thief, really. What we have to do ? Be prepared. Remember that God warns us in His Word. Watch while the others are asleep. It is part of the process, we learn to stay awake, more and more, taking Lesson from the last test we went through, and growing even stronger each time by the grace of Our Almighty God. Well, what a Glory, isn’t it ?....... 😉
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WOW Michele!
My heart is soaring. God is so very good.
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;)) When I finished writing, I told God: what words do you put into my mouth, Father! And I laughed!
God be glorified!
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;)) When I finished writing, I told God: what words do you put into my mouth, Father! And I laughed!
God be glorified!
The spirit and love of our Lord is blessing us richly of late. It's enough to make a person want to sing praises to his glory. I know that feeling Michele, when the words flow like water, with the speed of lightening.⚡ It always makes me laugh. ;)
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Here's another thought to throw into the mix.
Even after His resurrection, the disciples seemed sure that NOW, He would set up His Kingdom on Earth and reestablish the physical throne of David. But that is not the Kingdom He established/is establishing. The crowds that had shouted Hosanna had turned in large measure to "Crucify Him" and "Give us Barabbas" when it seemed their hopes for worldly "salvation" were dashed. "My God, My God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?" indeed, in their minds and hearts. David the Psalmist (apparently?) felt that God had forsaken him. But he continues the Psalm with prophetic faith. It's even possible that David himself, given the content of the rest of the Psalm was "quoting" the faithlessness of his contemporaries and "readers/hearers".
But who was listening when Jesus reminded them of the promise of Messiah by quoting David? Certainly not those who were listening then. Jesus continued in faith as well, until He gave up His Spirit and Committed it to the Father. Who believes His faith?
Sometimes people think they have it easier understanding the prophecies of Messiah 2000 years later after the facts and fulfillment in His life and sacrifice...and, of course, after having it explained to us so well by theologians and preachers. I don't think that's true. Hosanna remains only skin deep. Crucify Him and Give us Barabbas goes to the bone.
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Dave.You killed it!!!
"And some of those who were near by, hearing it, said, This man is crying to Elijah."
They even heard Him,but didn't know that He was quoting a psalm to them.
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Thank you Dave. For me, this is a profound message of faith Jesus has given us.
We are Barabbas. He represents all of mankind. We have truly become "the sons of the Father because of what Jesus did on our behalf. We have been released from the penalty of eternal death, just as Barabbas was freed from his certain death.at the hands of the Romans.
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It was necessary and Jesus did do it willingly. He knew when he said, "it is done" what was to happen.
Wow, even that makes me love Him more! What an awesome Saviour. Imagine if we were to know the hour and date and time?
☺