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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: sonofone on September 25, 2007, 02:46:54 PM
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I have probably asked about this before in some shape or fashion.My apologies if asked and answered already.What could this possibly mean if God is not angry? If no one has transgressed what is to be repaid?If I was created to sin, what am I apologizing for? Why is he requiring repentance? If I do not repent what is the vengeance that he will repay? If it's all about him and none about me,what's the point?
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Hi sonophone,
The short answer is; this is speaking to the person who has been wronged by another and the promise from God that He will make everything right.
Don't hit back, turn the other cheek, don't be angry with your brother, don't seek revenge, forgive and you will be forgiven, etc. This is more a message to those afflicted than it is to those doing the afflicting.
Trust in Him to sort it all out in all of our best interest!
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Another part of our growing process in becoming Christlike.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hebrews chapter 10 vs 26-31 Vs 30 For we know him that hath said,vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense,saith the lord.and again the lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. That does not sound at all pleasant. This instance is referring to mankind as it relates to transgressing against God. If I'm not sensing anger here then my senses truly have been dulled. Why would God be angry if we simply do as he wants us to?
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For me vengeance is that part of God's judgment that is relative to God's wrath. Those who are experiencing trials and tribulations will not experience God's wrath/LOF/Second death but are being judged now as is the House of God on whom judgment is "now."
It is inaccurate to relate Godly vengeance to the human emotion that manifests anger, hostility, aggression and the damage that results from such human exhibits of retaliation, violence and hate. God IS LOVE. His Judgment results in righteousness. To comprehend this we have to look AWAY from human standards and see that God is Spirit and He is training all humanity into the image of His Son who suffered and died for all of us. That is love. That is not vengeance.
God exercises His Judgment on us and for that moment it is painful but it is fruitful and that is the assurance we have in Christ.
Think of God as Spirit not as human emotions.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi sonophone,
You are absolutely correct it is not a pleasant thing, we get to learn the hard way, think about it, do we ever learn anything of real value the easy way?
Arcturus brings up an extremely important point, His ways are not our ways and His motivation is not spite or revenge, it is love and conciliation, everything we experience is for our spiritual growth.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
When I read scripture that for some reason does not seem to fit or appears to present a contradiction as to God's plan and purpose or even to His charactor I will check the root word (Hebrew or Greek) to see all the definitions presented.
Vengeance1557
G1557
ἐκδίκησις
ekdikēsis
ek-dik'-ay-sis
From G1556; vindication, retribution: - (a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.
Vindication has a little different connotation than vengeance;
vindicate - Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :
Vindicate \Vin"di*cate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Vindicated; p.
pr. & vb. n. Vindicating.] [L. vindicatus, p. p. of
vindicare to lay claim to, defend, avenge. See Vengeance.]
1. To lay claim to; to assert a right to; to claim. [R.]
2. To maintain or defend with success; to prove to be valid;
to assert convincingly; to sustain against assault; as, to
vindicate a right, claim, or title.
[1913 Webster]
3. To support or maintain as true or correct, against denial,
censure, or objections; to defend; to justify.
[1913 Webster]
4. To maintain, as a law or a cause, by overthrowing enemies.
--Milton.
[1913 Webster]
5. To liberate; to set free; to deliver. [Obs.]
[1913 Webster]
6. To avenge; to punish; as, a war to vindicate or punish
infidelity. [Obs.] --Bacon.
[1913 Webster]
Syn: To assert; maintain; claim. See Assert.
[1913 Webster]
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Vindication is mine sayeth the Lord! ;)
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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For me vengeance is that part of God's judgment that is relative to God's wrath. Those who are experiencing trials and tribulations will not experience God's wrath/LOF/Second death but are being judged now as is the House of God on whom judgment is "now."
It is inaccurate to relate Godly vengeance to the human emotion that manifests anger, hostility, aggression and the damage that results from such human exhibits of retaliation, violence and hate. God IS LOVE. His Judgment results in righteousness. To comprehend this we have to look AWAY from human standards and see that God is Spirit and He is training all humanity into the image of His Son who suffered and died for all of us. That is love. That is not vengeance.
God exercises His Judgment on us and for that moment it is painful but it is fruitful and that is the assurance we have in Christ.
Think of God as Spirit not as human emotions.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Greetings,
I guess my comment would be in relation to Eph. 4:26,27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:[27] Neither give place to the devil.
Rev.26 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Prov.8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Anger (wrath) is an emotion (not a sin) and it serves a purpose, (vs.27) to protect from the devil (not eachother). Even Jesus got angry and drove out the moneylenders from the temple. I believe the real reason He did that was to make the point that it is in our hearts (the true temple) that we need to get angry and drive out the lusts of the flesh (greed, selfishness, etc. that which is not love). Human emotions are different from human lusts. God can have emotions such as anger, pleasure, greif, joy, but unlike humans, He isn't ruled by them, causing Him to replace His very character of LOVE. Emotions come and go, but the Truth is our sure foundation.
G.
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Greetings,
I guess my comment would be in relation to Eph. 4:26,27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:[27] Neither give place to the devil.
Hello Gregor
Here is how I see this. Please note: The caps that follow DO NOT MEAN or indicate that I am shouting at anyone or at you but are simply used to emphasise what to ME is important and what for me, stands out as key to the words God is speaking in His Scriptures and secondly, how this is understood by and in which emphasis it is understood from where I am standing and viewing this.
So, to respond....I look at who Paul is speaking about when he talks about wrath in this Scripture. Who's wrath? God's wrath? NO. Be YE (YOU Mankind) angry....(Is this a licence to BE ANGRY? NO! Mankind IS ANGRY. Mankind IS the BEAST. We KNOW that the carnal mind is at deep seated enmity and hatred towards God right? The injunction and Will of God is SIN NOT.) and sin not: let not the sun go down upon YOUR WRATH. (To do so IS TO GIVE PLACE TO THE DEVIL!) Neither give place to the devil.
As in the Myth of Free Will we read that all go against the Will of God but non can thwart HIS Purpose or Plan. This is how I read the Scripture above. God says SIN NOT. Man SINS. God says do not let the sun go down upon your wrath and man does let the sun go down on his wrath that is why there are so many psychological illnesses, regrets, bad memories, fears hurts and mental aberrations today. God says when the devil is the god in the temple of God, that is us, then we worship an idol and place to the devil is given over by God and we consequentally go against God's Will. That is God's plan. Gods Will is that one day we will know that there is no other God beside God and that He is our God and no other.
So for me as I perceive this, the wrath here in the Scripture you present, refers to mans bestial wrath not God's Holy righteous indignation and judgment of man and the beast. Gods wrath and judgement will result in man coming to know, comprehend and understand the ways and purposes of God.
Rev.26 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Prov.8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
I see the above as the description of the fruits of the beast.
Anger (wrath) is an emotion (not a sin) and it serves a purpose, (vs.27) to protect from the devil (not eachother).
Human anger does not protect anyone from the devil as I see it. On the contrary, human anger is for me a manifestation of being held captive by the devil!
Even Jesus got angry
Jesus is God. Humany is not God. What Jesus did He saw His Father doing. Can you honestly say that any human being who has not yet seen Christ face to face, can be doing what the God The Father is doing yet? Only the Babylonians are making claim to such nonsense saying they do the works of Christ through their false teaching and miracle workings wiles and wonders. ;D
and drove out the moneylenders from the temple. I believe the real reason He did that was to make the point that it is in our hearts (the true temple) that we need to get angry and drive out the lusts of the flesh (greed, selfishness, etc. that which is not love).
I see that it is only by Grace that is God's Divine influence on our hearts that this can begin and through the Faith of Christ be completed.
Human emotions are different from human lusts. God can have emotions such as anger, pleasure, grief, joy, but unlike humans, He isn't ruled by them, causing Him to replace His very character of LOVE.
Isn't THAT a most wonderful thought. That God CARES! AWESOME POINT!
Emotions come and go, but the Truth is our sure foundation.
Yes and The Truth is one way to life that sets us all free. His Name. Christ Jesus in whom we are being made into His image by God working through His Spirit that is creating us. (Cloning us...as you said you see it, in another thread!)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I have probably asked about this before in some shape or fashion.
As a matter of fact..... ;D
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5492.msg43981/topicseen.html#msg43981
His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,
Joe
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Greetings,
Psm.97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
(This is in reference to the saints, still in human form)
Amos.5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.
Zech.8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.
Rev.26 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans(not them personally), which I also hate.
Prov.8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
I don't see Prov8:13a as the beast. I do see fruits of the beast, but those are the predicate which we are to be hating. We are instructed to fear the Lord, which IS to hate evil. We can only fear the Lord by His spirit, by His grace, His revelation. Our carnal mind cannot know God.
I would suggest that "human anger" would be directed at people and therefore would be a manifestation of being held captive by the devil! Hence we too must learn forgiveness. Righteous indignation is directed at the sin, evil itself, and we are instructed to do that.
"Jesus is God. Humany is not God. What Jesus did He saw His Father doing. Can you honestly say that any human being who has not yet seen Christ face to face, can be doing what the God The Father is doing yet?"
Yes and No. Humans can sometimes, not 100% of the time (not yet perfect), and not by works of the flesh, but by the indwelling spirit of God. It is by his GRACE that we do receive His spirit. Can you honestly say that if you are walking in the spirit you wont hate sin and still love the sinner? Again, I think that the emotions themselves are good only when they are directed correctly, that is, that they are not directed at the individual, but at the evil/sin itself. How can we be like Jesus, God, if we don't also hate like Him? If we are walking in the spirit, that which grieves God will grieve us, that which God hates we will hate. It would be a contradiction to say that God can be angry, yet we cannot, yet we are to be Christ-like. I agree 100% that we are not yet perfected, but that doesn't negate the accountibility factor. Until the day after the LOF, where all sin is removed, even God will still hate sin. After such time, there will no longer be the need for hate because there will no longer be a predicate for it, and at such time all will become "ONE".
I hope you don't feel that I am in any way attacking you personally, I am simpley seeking truth and enjoying this discussion. I am in no way offended by your point of view, nor take anything you say as a personal attack, so carry on. I am open to correction, and pray that God will open my eyes to the truth. ;D
Your Brother in Christ,
Greg
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It seems to me that our emotions are just another aspect of our personality that God uses to carry out his plan and purpose for our lives.
And as usual here is an email.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2120.0.html -------
Dear Sebby:
The mere fact that you at least in part understand that all is of God and that no one cane thwart His plan or purpose or intention, shows that God is already working with you. God will be working with you long before you fully realize that it is happening. We play a huge role in God's plan. It is through US that God is accomplishing His plan and purpose. We make millions of choices and decisions along the way. We have emotions which play a huge part as well. Our emotions are the driving force behind our choices. We may think it all takes place in our head and in our mind and in our brain, but that part of the brain known as the heart, the seat of emotions plays a huge part. People don't marry who they marry because it just makes "good sense," or is "practical," or "financially" a wise decision. We marry who we marry because the emotions of our heart MAKE US WANT TO MARRY THEM. We do this not realizing that God is the only Match-Maker in the universe. God pre-arranges all marriages--both the good ones and the bad ones. But I don't have the time to write a book on this subject right now. God will just have to reveal these truths to you over time.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hello Gregor
I am going to build on upon what you observe if simply because you give the confidence in knowing that as you say : I am in no way offended by your point of view, nor take anything you say as a personal attack, That is most mature of you so....what do you think of this....
Why would God hate, as human carnal man understands hate....something God, our BIG, larger than life GOD has CREATED? God for me USES evil to bring man and usher man into a knowledge of contrasts to know and discern between GOOD and EVIL. Not to HATE evil in a defensive, vulnerable way but in a victorious way that has overcome evil with good.
The Scriptures you bring forth are all true but do not disclose HOW we are to hate AS GOD HATES in a SOVEREIGN way which WE can not be or do EXCEPT in the Image of Christ that presents Christs Spirit that has OVERCOME THE WORLD.
The Churches do not see this subtlety that is Spiritual and neither do they teach or believe it.
God does not change and yes what the Scriptures disclose of His nature character and Spirit remains true. There is NO contention there! God does HATE evil BUT do we KNOW HOW God hates? Do we know HOW God loves.
As Joe pointed out earlier, we do not KNOW the ways of God. Only Christ knows through His Spirit and this will be our inheritance to also know God in the end....The race is still on. The work of God is still progressing humanity into the ultimate direction and purpose of this Glorious revelation. God sends His Spirit into us to begin and progress His work in us.
God says Isa 45 : 7 I for the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil. I am the Lord Who does all these things.
Does God hate what He does. No. I do not think so. All things in heaven and in earth are created for Gods purpose. God is subject to NOTHING and NO ONE. (Emphasis caps...not shouting at you! ;D)
For me forgiveness and repentance work together to cancel the power of evil and its dominion over man. You introduced these points beautifully Gregor.
You introduce "fear of the Lord" IS to hate evil. Yes Gregor indeed the Word of God says this but what does it MEAN? Do the Churches know what it MEANS? Do they teach what it MEANS? I don't think so.
Fear of the Lord is for me that REST in the sublime knowledge, insight, comprehension and understanding that HE IS and the HE is Isa 46: 10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My Counsel shall stand, and I Will do ALL My pleasure and purpose.
Ecc 12 : 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole mater, Fear God, and keep His commandments ( Will man keep God's commandments? No. Does God Will for man to keep His commandments? Yes. ) for this is the whole of man, the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God's providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun....for EVERY MAN. Has this been accomplished yet? No. Will it be. YES! ONE DAY MAN in the Image of Christ, will be whole! See.....The WHOLE OF MAN... ALL EVERYONE will know God and God WILL BE ALL IN ALL!
Gregor...I too am blessed by this discussion and appreciate your participation.
Kat, somewhere Ray mentions that the emotions are a disturbance of the mind....I believe it may be in one of his more recent audios from Bible Study.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Greetings Arcturus,
Perhaps we need to define some of our terms to make sure we're on the same page.
When I say "we/us" I'm referring to the spirit filled believer (living & walking in the spirit), not the carnally minded man. I believe that the spirit helps us to know and understand and discern. For without it, the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. Perhaps we differ on the definition of spirit filled, but that would be another thread. ;)
Next, lets define "hate." The word used in all the OT examples I gave is the same word (and primarily used as a verb with an object), Strongs 8130 sane - a prim. root;to hate (personally):-enemy, foe, (be)hate(-ful, -r,), odious, X utterly.
According to Dictionary.com, hate: –verb (used with object)
1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
2. to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.
–verb (used without object)
3. to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility.
or noun
1. the emotion of intense dislike; a feeling of dislike so strong that it demands action [ant: love]
verb
1. dislike intensely; feel antipathy or aversion towards; "I hate Mexican food"; "She detests politicians" [ant: love]
Both the Strongs definition and the "carnal man's" definitions are the same, and quite simple to understand. I don't think God's definition is any different. The fact that, by His spirit, He has revealed his truths to us shows us that He does want some (the few) to understand. And we learn from His Spirit, His Word, His Son, Himself, how to be filled with that same spirit, word, and to be transformed by the renewing of our minds: Rom.12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Tit.3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
My question isn't why would God hate, but rather what does God hate? In answering the "what" we learn the "why" (a knowledge of contrasts to know and discern between GOOD and EVIL thereby gaining wisdom), that we may end up "one" with Him (God's ultimate purpose/will).
You say, "The Scriptures you bring forth are all true but do not disclose HOW we are to hate AS GOD HATES in a SOVEREIGN way which WE can not be or do EXCEPT in the Image of Christ that presents Christs Spirit that has OVERCOME THE WORLD...God does HATE evil BUT do we KNOW HOW God hates? Do we know HOW God loves."
Yes, at least I think I do dimly. The individual scriptures don't tell us HOW God hates, but the overall scriptures do revealing Jesus, revealing God - He burns up the sin in the LOF, and saves all mankind. He hates sin enough to destroy it, and loves us enough not to destroy us. It is a beautiful combination of His mercy (not giving us what we deserve), and his grace (giving us what we don't deserve).
God doesn't hate the way carnal man hates. Carnal man loves sin (our inner enemy), lusts for it and the pride of life. Carnal man focuses hate towards God and towards eachother. Carnal man uses hate in a defensive, vulnerable way. But God has shown us that his hate is directed at evil, things that are evil, certain deeds, never towards His creation. God uses the LOF for a purpose (chastisement as sons), not to hate the sinner, but to eliminate the sin and reconcile us. There's that contrast at work, exposing the carnal to reveal the spiritual. Natural is exposed first, then spiritual. We have something to compare.
I'm not sure if I'm missing your point (the subtlety you mentioned), or if you're missing mine, in that the emotion of hate itself is neither good nor bad, but depends on where it is directed, and for what purpose. Just like we say love your neighbor (that's good), yet we're not to love this world (that's bad). Sadly, neither our hate nor love will be perfected in us till the end. We can sample both, albeit dimly, as in a mirror. Well, that's it for now. I've got to get some sleep. I look forward to more. Till then, all the best,
G.
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Micah 7
9 Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD's wrath,
until he pleads my case
and establishes my right.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
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The purpose and intent of this post for me is to clarify God's relationship to Man. In asking the why questions,I am hoping to clarify just what is going on. I am trying to digest the position that the sovereignty of God recuses mans actions. The questions that I raise are what come up in my mind while trying to accept this position.I can only relate to God as a human being,because that is what I am. Notwithstanding,that there is a spiritual aspect to knowing God.Even in my relating to God spiritually it gets filtered through my human understanding. So when I go about the business of trying to make sense of it all I have to use reasoning and basic human concepts to understand this spiritual God. In doing so this is what I see. God creates man. In creating man he has an ultimate plan to make man in his image. In making man in his image,requires time,and a plan of action.We see the plan begin to unfold in the garden with Adam,and Eve.This for me begins the questions as to what has really happened. I believe,or rather it is my current understanding that God put in place a set of circumstances that ultimately revealed that man needed a savior. The circumstances he set up were clear. He provided the Savior,IE the tree of life,along with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Both in the middle of the garden giving man equal access to both.I think there is something to be said of this. If all God wanted to do is have Adam fail or to expose his weakness,why not just set up the circumstance for him to fail only? What God did instead was put before him two choices,or two paths and told him to choose.These are the same two choices that are constantly before us as it relates to God.One thing that is interesting to me is that no insight is given as to the nature of the tree of life in this scenario.We get detailed explanation as to the other tree,We know what will happen as a result of eating it.We hear no instruction about this tree of life and why this would be the right or best choice and what the benefit of choosing this would be. Are we to assume that Adam Knew perfectly the differences,and benefits of choosing this tree? The bible does state that he was not deceived. Would one bite of this fruit from the tree of life have given them life eternal? God does say after the fact that that if he put forth his hand and take also of the tree and eat and live forever.So as we continue we learn that the serpent who gets so much credit for the supposed fall of man is almost completely insignificant. For Eve was deceived by the serpent not Adam,I Timothy 2 vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman,being deceived,was in the transgression.Adam chose to follow his wife.And unto Adam he said because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and eaten of the tree. Eve was deceived,Adam Chose. In other words he knew better,he could have chose better,but he did not.That makes him responsible,accountable. In raising my child I do not lay to his charge things that he could do no better in.It is only after he comes into a place of learning and understanding that I hold him accountable for his choices,because an assumption or expectation of choosing properly is now in effect.There are even occasions where I set up or allow test to come before him to see what he will do,often times knowing beforehand what he will do when tested. The fact that I know what he will do ahead of time does not lessen the pending fire which is to come as result of his choice,because the expectation is that he could and should have made the correct choice.So here is where I am stuck. I believe that Adam could have chose and should have chose the tree of life.The fact that he did choose as he did brought about the penalty.This for me explains the why questions. The why is because he failed to do as he could.This is a significant belief,because it separates or makes a distinction between Adam and Man.I believe that Adam could have chose differently, I don't believe that about us or Mankind.We in and of ourselves are incapable of choosing God because of our sin nature.Adam activated this or entered into this sin nature with his choice,or choosing.I am not proposing that Adam was made perfect and then fell.I am proposing that before Adam made this choice that the gravity of sin that we know and experience,that inescapable pull away from God that Paul speaks about; Romans 5 vs 12 Wherefore,as by one man sin entered into the world,and death by sin,and so death passed upon all men,for all have sinned.vs 19 For as by one mans DISOBEDIENCE,not deception,many were made sinners.Romans 7 vs 14 Paul says that I am carnal sold under sin.vs 21 I find a law that when I would do good,evil is present with me.vs 20 says Now if I do that I would not,it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.This Gravitational pull that makes it impossible to choose God.This was not the case or excuse for Adam he did not experience this gravitational pull making it impossible for him to choose God. Adam just simply chose to be with his wife over God.No law of sin,no deception from Satan, no pride of life,lust of the eye, lust of the flesh,unless of course you consider Eve as this. He was simply without excuse.Since Adam is our father we to are without excuse. Romans 1 vs 20,His choice was our choice.His choosing brought death and incited Gods wrath and anger.And God's wrath and anger is totally and completely justified.Both in the case of Adam and us. So knowing this we repent, we repent because we were wrong, we were wrong because we chose.Nevermind the fact the sovereignty of God,this somehow clouds the fact that we are responsible. God in his sovereignty could have chose to make Adam perfect incapable of sinning,but he did not. Man is in a partnership with God and your will and choosing is essential for this partnership to work.I could go on but I think I will stop here for now to see what you guy s think
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Hi sonofone,
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
v. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man .
Adam was created out of the dust as flesh with a natural/carnal mind. He hade the breath/spirit of physical life, but not the Holy Spirit.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Therefore he made the only decision he could make with his carnal mind, under the circumstances God put him in. He had to choose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, first to get knowledge. This tree is a symbol of what we all have to choose, Adam just represents the first to make the choice, that we all will make. Because in this life we all have to go through these life experiences to learn good and evil, that is God's plan and purpose for this chuurch age.
The tree of life is symbolic of Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:49 "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." v. 46 says FIRST the natural/physical/carnal, that is this life experence in this age, God is giving mankind the experience of good and evil. For a very few chosen and given the Holy Spirit (but only after they have been through this life experience of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they are being prepared ahead of the rest to become spiritual minded. They are given of the tree of Life, Jesus Christ.
I just thought I would give you my understanding on this point of your post.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi sonofone,
I have only a little time to answer this. If anyone could post the scriptures after please do. What i see is, to concur with Kats post, is that eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life in her EVEN BEFORE she ate. Adam choose eve over God. They Both were created in vanity.
And Christ said to even think lustfully in thy mind is sinning. So they were created with ability to sin. God knew they would eat of that tree because THEY HAD TO, to gain knowledge. Part of the process of His creating.
Hope u understand what i trying to say sorry it is rushed.
God Bless
Sansmile
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Hi Kat if what you are saying is in disagreement with what I have said then I guess we will have to agree to disagree for now.I think I laid out a pretty good argument by way of the scriptures and a good use of logic that Adam unlike us had a choice and was not shackled by the weight of sin like us.
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Sin entered the world through disobedience,not birth.wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin.For as by one mansdisobedience many were made sinners,so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.As for the three points of temptation that Eve experienced Ist John 2 vs 16 consider vs 9 Gen chp2 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is PLEASNT TO THE SIGHT,AND GOOD FOR FOOD. This is not sin or sinful.Sin is missing the mark The three points of temptation only lead to sin they are not in and of themselves sin.The original sin if you will was mans disobedience to Gods instruction period.
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Hello Gregor
I do not believe there is any major differences between what we have been brought to understand by the Spirit. We can fine tune our WORDS and correct our perceptions to make for purer understanding. I believe this is where the benifit of fellowship is present and constructive.
You say :the emotion of hate itself is neither good nor bad, but depends on where it is directed,
For me that is like saying that the Atomic Bomb is neither good or bad but it depends on where it is detonated ;D
Okay that is a major extreme but bring it down to other emotions like saying, the emotion of lust itself is neither good nor bad, but depends on where it is directed or any other negative emotion....Emotions like words and like thoughts we will be held accountable for.
Sonofone this scripture might help you see more concerning the fact that Eve was carnal before she was tempted. That she could be tempted and sin, means that she was not in Gods image. Jesus was tempted yet without sin because He is the Image of God. Here is a Scripture that forms part of the response to Gergor regarding our emotions and our heart condition that begins as being spiritually weak by God's design and purpose. Our hearts will be purified.
Rev 20 : 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by what they had done, their whole way of FEELING AND ACTING, THEIR AIMS AND ENDEAVORS in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
Gregor, let me add, another Scripture. I am sure you know what the fruits of the Spirit are. Hate is not one of them. That is why I find no place for it in the vocabulary of the nature and wisdom of God into whos Image we are being made.
Many will feel God's wrath and see it as fury and anger when actually it is judgment with a purpose quite unlike the carnal hate of man against man who detonated his lust for power victory and opposition to the death of countless Japanese people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Just my view point. :)
Matt 5 : 43 You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbours and hate your enemy. But I TELL you LOVE....
The way God loves and the way God hates is not the same as the WAY man loves and hates. It will be one day.....Till then we, are being made into His image that is a work in progress.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi sonofone,
It sounds like you are saying Adam could have chosen not to sin, by not choosing the tree of good and evil. Are you thinking at that time he could have chosen the tree of Life, Jesus Christ?
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Adam is considered to have commited the first sin, that is why it says "through one man sin entered the world," it's to say he got it started, so to speak.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Here is an email that goes into Adam and Eve a bit.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#will ------------------------
[Ray replies]
Well of course we are getting into a mature subject here, and I certainly would not expect Sunday School children to understand it, it does take some spiritual maturity.
God ABSOLUTELY has raised up people for the EXPRESS PURPOSE OF SINNING so that God could show His power in the earth by simply CONTRAST. See Rom. Chapter nine. (I notice that you are not one to be burdened by quoting Scriptures to back up your statement). Pharaoh was raised up for the EXPRESS purpose of GOING AGAINST God's will and SINNING so that God could then DESTROY HIM. Read it. Paul plainly says so. Stop using human arguments and reasoning. If you can't show me by the Scriptures, then you can't show me.
God planted the true of the knowledge of good and evil, not Satan. And God planted it right in the midst of the Garden where Adam and Eve would surely see it. God watched as Satan maneuvered his way to Eve so as to deceive her. God watched the whole thing! Stop believing that God is surprised or shocked by the actions of His creatures--He is NOT! Besides, the tree contained the knowledge of GOOD! Or did you never notice that? It was GOOD that they ate of the tree. It was GOOD that they disobeyed God. God KNEW THAT THEY WOULD SIN AND DISOBEY FROM LONG BEFORE HE EVER CREATED THEM.
How stupid do you think God is? It is blasphemy the way people talk about God and give Him no more reasoning powers or abilities than sinful men. It is a SHAME. God knew exactly was HE was doing and He knew exactly everything that Adam and Eve WOULD DO. He is GOD. He knows ALL.
The Lamb of God was "slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD," the Scriptures tell us. Not from the "sin of Eve." God made provision for the salvation of Adam and Eve BEFORE HE EVER CREATED THEM--that is Scripture! That is not mans' theories!
One last thought for you. God DID create men spiritually weak so that they cannot resist sin. "ALL have sinned..."It obviously IS God's will that for a time we go AGAINST His will. But. . .BUT, NO ONE EVER goes against God's "INTENTION." There is a giant difference. Paul's detractors ask in Roman's nine, "For who has gone against God's INTENTION?" And the answer is, absolutely NO ONE. It could not even BE God's will that all be saved, unless first ALL ARE LOST!
If only theologians could come to understand that God is not running a damage control center from His throne of the universe. God is NOT picking up the pieces. He is not trying to get things back to being as good as they once were. He is not trying to figure out how to outsmart Satan. He is not falling behind, numerically, as far as how many will be saved and how many will be lost. God is far smarter and wiser and the stupid men who come up with these insane and blasphemous theories and doctrines.
God has a PLAN. (Wow, now there's a revelation for theologians). And God is working out that plan to perfection on a perfect schedule, and He will loose NOTHING! Paul tells us in Rom. 11:36 that ALL is out of God and THROUGH God and FOR God. God is creating man in His OWN IMAGE. It is a PROCESS. That process is on perfect schedule. It WILL be successful. Christ IS the saviour of the world and therefore, He WILL SAVE THE WORLD. How can you be a minister of the gospel and doubt God's ability to save all of His children? That's insane.
Anyway, I gotta go, I have many more e-mails to answer.
May God guide you into His perfect will.
Sincerely,
Ray
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I still don't see where I am missing it? Eve was deceived then she sinned. This is scripture. Ist Corinthians 10 vs 13There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man,but God is faithful,WHO WILL NOT PERMIT YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE.but will with the temptation also make the way to escape so that ye may bear it. Yes Adam could have chose the tree of life that's why it was there, that's why God had to cast him from the garden and then guard it. Again that's scripture.Adam was not deceived he chose to follow his wife and willfully disobeyed God. that too is scripture this sin caused sin to enter into the world. This is also scripture.It is of utmost importance to realise that Adam chose freely to sin whether God intended this or not he chose to sin and he could have chose differently.The choice was his. Think about it the serpent tempted him just as he did Jesus Neither Adam or Jesus was deceived by the serpent.Only Jesus remained obedient to the will of God and Adam disobeyed only Eve was deceived by the serpent.I don't believe that God punishes man for making him a sinner,rather he punishes man for sinning through Adam.
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Greetings Arcturus,
You said:
"Here is a Scripture that forms part of the response to Gergor regarding our emotions and our heart condition that begins as being spiritually weak by God's design and purpose."
I think that is very accurate.
Pss.111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Prov.9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Our Spiritual awakening begins when we recognize our condition and need for change, but progresses from service out of a fear (aka respect) to one out of sheer love. Unless we first "hate" evil, we will never learn to "love" good, and there is none good but the Father, which leads to producing the fruit of the spirit.
Peace
G.
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sonofone
The way of escape is through fire.
Gregor
You say : Our Spiritual awakening begins when we recognize our condition and need for change, but progresses from service out of a fear (aka respect) to one out of sheer love. Until we "hate" evil, we will never learn to "love" good, and there is none good but the Father.
for me our Spiritual blindness reverses into sight when His Spirit touches us and starts to heal us via repentance and forgiveness. The consequence of such is that yes, we start to see our condition and we begin to loath the sinfulness we see within ourselves. Then we see the beast within is us. Then we are able to recognise that we left our first love and then by Grace we begin produce the fruit of love.
I do not see evil first to be hated and love to be the consequence. I see Love as the CAUSE and the consequence is rejection of evil and separation from darkness.
Of course there is non good but the Father.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Greetings Sonofone,
Hebrews tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. We are also told that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If you look at the situation with Adam, he failed because he chose to heed the voice of his wife (no faith), rather than to heed the voice of God. Jesus, on the otherhand, in every temptation by satan in the wilderness, used the word of God, ("it is written"), as his defense and was victorious. I hope this will give you something to meditate on.
G.
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It seems that the last exchange between Arcturus and Gregor were the exact same conclusion with exception to the relationship to evil. When we see ourselves or our beast within don't we hate it as opposed to love it? isn't this what makes us want to be changed? Paul said oh wretched man that I am. You need to have the balance you can't have one without the other. But you guys need a new post or try pm'ing each other. Gregor I saw your response to my post and don't know what to think of it? I see it understand it do not disagree with it but I fail to see how it changes anything that I have said?
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Greetings Arcturus,
I actually modified my post slightly, but in any case, I think that man must first see the reality of death, and our need for God before we can truly learn to love and obey God. This is perhaps why it is so hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God, they "think" they have no need. In my case, I truly had to hit "rock bottem" in life, before I was willing to look upward for help. When there was no further for me to fall, other than death, I was able to recognize my total need for God. Now, as I'm growing, I realize that my focus has changed.
Heb.6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...
This is how God intends to bring us to his light, by the very fact that he created evil and exposed the sin. Just like in Gen.1, there was first darkness over the face of the deep, before God said, "let there be light" and saw that it was good. The repentance from "dead works" must first be in our foundation before we can move on. Ultimately, it is the spirit who draws us, by whatever means necessary, and may differ from one person to another. So I'll leave it at that and agree with you when you said, "I do not believe there is any major differences between what we have been brought to understand by the Spirit. We can fine tune our WORDS and correct our perceptions to make for purer understanding. I believe this is where the benifit of fellowship is present and constructive." I look forward to that "purer" understanding to come.
All the best in Christ,
G.
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Greetings Sonofone,
I think in your last post, you did hit the nail on the head: "You need to have the balance you can't have one without the other." I agree. NKJV Gen.1:5 "God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. *So the evening and the morning were the first day." In the center margin of my bible there is a footnote stating that the Literal translation reads like this: *And evening was, and morning was, a day, one. This speaks to me that both are in balance - one. I'm sorry if I'm distracting from your questions, but maybe the answer to the Vengence is mine saith the lord?? question is related to how we perceive our relationship with anger. I will read up some more on "vengence" but believe that when God says vengence he's directing it at the sin, not the sinner. Just as it says in Eph 6:10 "to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made know by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places." Man tends to look at the surface, blame the person, rather than righteous judgement God shows at directing his vengence at the principalities/powers behind our actions. This is why the LOF will destroy the sin, not the sinner. God loves us, but hates the sin. And what is sin, but Rom14:23 "But he who doubts (Adam/us) is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." Hope this helps.
G.
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I think it becomes difficult to separate the sin from the sinner even dicier than splitting hairs. If I sin I will be judged I am not going to get to sit back and watch my sin get judged by the fire I will be judged in and by the fire.
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I think it becomes difficult to separate the sin from the sinner even dicier than splitting hairs. If I sin I will be judged I am not going to get to sit back and watch my sin get judged by the fire I will be judged in and by the fire.
yes, you're right. This is why only God can do the judging, not man. But God disciplines (chastises) those he loves, and as Ray explains, those who aren't chastised would be considered ******** (without a father).
I looked up the Greek word for vengence. It is made up of different root words, but the primary root word meaning is "to show" Other meanings include punishment/retribution etc. but ultimately God will vindicate himself, show us that his word is true. Man volunteers to sin. See the last couple posts in "Circumcision - ouch!" thread. Kat put an email in there from Ray, which I think supports what I'm saying. I encourage you to keep seeking, knocking, asking, as the answers will come. Really ask God, "what are you trying to show me?" When he sheds his light on your understanding, you will know it!
All the best,
G.
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It is of utmost importance to realise that Adam chose freely to sin whether God intended this or not he chose to sin and he could have chose differently.The choice was his. Think about it the serpent tempted him just as he did Jesus Neither Adam or Jesus was deceived by the serpent.
Hi sonophone,
Where is it written that the serpent tempted Adam?
This is new to me.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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The bible says that after Eve was tempted of the serpent that she did eat and gave to her husband with her and he did eat. It suggest to me that he was there with her the whole time. Thats where It says it Gen 3vs 6.Are we to assume that Adam was off somewhere else when this was happening?Even if he was not there if we have to make that assumption did Eve just walk up to him and say here Adam have some fruit? Adam was not deceived by the serpent,Eve sinned because she was deceived by the serpent as the bible states Ist Timothy 2vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. nor was Jesus deceived by the serpent one obeyed God the other disobeyed Romans 5vs 19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
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Greetings Sonofone,
May I suggest going back and reading the thread "Eve deceived"? I think the last post on page 1 by Joe really has some truth to it and answers your question here, and the one posed by you on that thread. We touched on equal liberty, but that liberty was still subject to the truth, the word of God, (Faith). I think it's awesome how these threads tie together.
Your Brother in Christ,
Greg
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The bible says that after Eve was tempted of the serpent that she did eat and gave to her husband with her and he did eat. It suggest to me that he was there with her the whole time. Thats where It says it Gen 3vs 6.Are we to assume that Adam was off somewhere else when this was happening?Even if he was not there if we have to make that assumption did Eve just walk up to him and say here Adam have some fruit? Adam was not deceived by the serpent,Eve sinned because she was deceived by the serpent as the bible states Ist Timothy 2vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. nor was Jesus deceived by the serpent one obeyed God the other disobeyed Romans 5vs 19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Hello again sonophone,
A lot of assumptions there my friend. So you are assuming that Adam was right there, not deceived and just stood by as Eve disobeyed God?
You still did not give chapter and verse for your statement that Adam was tempted by the serpent.
What would you do if a con man approached you and your wife and you recognized the scam while she thought it was the deal of a lifetime, would you just stand there watch her count the money and hand it over to him?
We went over this in the previous thread about Adam and Eve, God created Adam and knew him better than Adam knew himself. Are you assuming God just stood by scratching His beard as He breathlessly awaited Adam's free will decision? Have you considered that the intense desire Adam had for Eve was put there by God? That this was the actual cause for Adam's disobedience? His love/lust for Eve and his desire to be with her "damn the torpedoes" was caused by God, Adam embraced this decision in his heart but he was bound to do what he did because of the weakness of His flesh, God created him that way. But Adam still wanted to remain with Eve, that was his sin choosing Eve over God's Word. He could not help himself and he did not have faith in God to help either.
Adam's heart was in his decision but the pull of the (God created) flesh is what inspired it.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Adam had as much "free will" as the clay he was formed from.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Greetings Sonofone,
May I suggest going back and reading the thread "Eve deceived"? I think the last post on page 1 by Joe really has some truth to it and answers your question here, and the one posed by you on that thread. We touched on equal liberty, but that liberty was still subject to the truth, the word of God, (Faith). I think it's awesome how these threads tie together.
Your Brother in Christ,
Greg
Thanks Gregor,
I was typing the above response as you were posting. ;)
Peace,
Joe
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With all due respect Joe you say I make a lot of assumptions but then everything you say is an assumption as well? I did give chapter and verse for everything I said The scripture says that Adam was with her. And as I stated even if I say that he was not there as the scripture says he was. What explanation did Eve give Adam to take of the fruit? Would you suggest to me that Adam knew nothing of this temptation of Eve.He just blindly took of the fruit.And unto Adam he said because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten of the tree.She didn't simply hand it to him.
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Here is a section of Ray's paper on 'The Myth of Free-Will Exposed' part A. Maybe this will shed a little light on this subject.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html ----------------------------------------------
WHAT CAUSED EVE TO SIN WILLINGLY?
Did Eve herself think that she "freely" willed to sin WITHOUT A CAUSE?
"And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said [Yes, just what did ‘the woman say?’ Did she say that she "freely willed" to commit this sin? Did she say it was her and all her and nothing but her that did this? Or did she say…], The SERPENT BEGUILED ME… [and BECAUSE the serpent beguiled or deceived her, we now have a CAUSE], and I did eat" (Gen. 3:13).
And what did God have to save about all this blame casting on Eve’s part? Did God say something like this:
"Oh really, Eve? Yah right, go ahead, try and blame it on THE SERPENT! No, Eve, you ‘FREELY’ willed by your own ‘FREE MORAL AGENCY’ which I gave to you and which is free from ALL CAUSALITY AND BLAME CASTING, to do this thing ON YOUR OWN."
Is that what God said? Let’s read it:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle…" (Verse 14).
There it is. God’s Own answer. But will we accept God’s answer? For most, probably not.
God plainly said that it was the serpent who "has done this." Eve said it was the serpent that deceived her and God Himself also conceded that it was the serpent that "HAS DONE THIS." That was the CAUSE, and that was the reason for the serpent’s punishment.
WHAT CAUSED ADAM TO SIN WILLINGLY?
How about Adam? Does he fair any better than his wife? Did Adam eat the forbidden fruit and sin by his OWN ‘FREE’ WILL? Or do the Scriptures tell us that he too was CAUSED to have his will do what he did?
"And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).
And again, did God say something like" "Oh sure, Adam, blame it on your WIFE! You know that you ‘freely’ without any outside cause whatsoever, decided on your own to eat the fruit." Is that what God intonated to Adam? Let’s read it:
"And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).
Does anyone see here where God says, "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of our OWN ‘FREE’ WILL, and have eaten of the true…?" Well? No, before Adam "willed" (and NOT FREELY), but willed to eat of this fruit, his heart was influenced to do something that it already had all the potential in the world of doing. Namely, disobeying His God and Maker. And what was that? HIS WIFE’S VOICE. And at THAT point in the process, Adam began to "will" this act, and his mind formulated the actual physical action of doing the eating.
You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church.
God doesn’t even hint that Adam did what he did "freely." God Himself admits that the CAUSE was "the VOICE OF YOUR WIFE."
I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.
Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone?
IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART
ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.
We read in Jer. 17:9:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."
God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."
The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.
Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.
Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.
The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,
Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,
Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.
The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 we read this:
"And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Why did Adam sin if he was NOT deceived as his wife was? Again, the answer goes back to THE HEART.
Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife. Notice what He said to God:
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).
Isn’t that interesting. Adam did not say: "The woman whom you gave TO ME." Or, "The woman whom you gave FOR ME." But rather, "The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME." Adam reminded God that He created Eve to be ‘WITH’ him, not apart from him. And if Adam had obeyed God, whereas his wife did not, he feared being SEPARATED from Eve. And so he also ate of the fruit and sinned, not because he was deceived as Eve was, but because he loved her in his heart so much that he couldn’t bear the thought of not being "WITH" her.
And so, did Adam "freely" WITHOUT A CAUSE choose to eat the forbidden fruit? What nonsense. Adam had the BIGGEST REASON in the world that CAUSED him to sin and remain with his wife!
So if you are looking for "free" will in the Garden at the time of our first parents' creation, forget it, 'cause it ain’t there!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I hear you Kat and out of respect for Ray I will bow out of this discussion. Thanks
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Hi sonophone,
The scriptures do not say "Adam was with her and was tempted by the serpent" the (KJV) says; she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Could this not also just be saying Adam ate with her together, eating as she ate? You yourself said it "suggested to you" they were together through the whole process.
Not all translations phrase it quite this way;
Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate. (Amplified)
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was desirable to the eyes and that the tree was pleasant to make one knowing then she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and she gave to her husband also, along with her and he did eat. (Rotherham's)
The only definitive thing here is they ate the fruit together at some point not that they both listened to the serpent's sales pitch.
With all due respect Joe you say I make a lot of assumptions but then everything you say is an assumption as well? Everything I said was an assumption? (Even Isa 64:8, Jer 10:23 & 24?)
I did give chapter and verse for everything I said (than why did you use the words assume, suggest and assumption?)
The scripture says that Adam was with her. (It says they ate the fruit together, this goes back to my original question to your definitive statement that the serpent tempted Adam, I asked "where is this written?" You answered with supposition.)
And as I stated even if I say that he was not there as the scripture says he was. What explanation did Eve give Adam to take of the fruit?
Would you suggest to me that Adam knew nothing of this temptation of Eve. (No, he knew exactly what he was doing, he made a reckless decision to be with the woman he desired, he is not the only man who did this in the history of the world, that is for sure!)
He just blindly took of the fruit. (No again, he did it with his eyes wide open, he valued Eve more than he feared God or death at that moment. You know Adam was not deceived by the serpent, he just wanted to remain with Eve, with no regard to the ramifications)
And unto Adam he said because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten of the tree.She didn't simply hand it to him. (Who said "she simply handed it to him," I didn't. Adam recognized the situation for what it was, his wife ate, she was going to die and he was going with her, all she had to say was "here Adam," he would have known she had disobeyed.)
Here are your words sonophone,
The bible says that after Eve was tempted of the serpent that she did eat and gave to her husband with her and he did eat. It suggest to me that he was there with her the whole time. Thats where It says it Gen 3vs 6.Are we to assume that Adam was off somewhere else when this was happening?Even if he was not there if we have to make that assumption did Eve just walk up to him and say here Adam have some fruit? Adam was not deceived by the serpent,Eve sinned because she was deceived by the serpent as the bible states Ist Timothy 2vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. nor was Jesus deceived by the serpent one obeyed God the other disobeyed Romans 5vs 19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
You make the assumption Adam resisted the temptation of the serpent, I asked for chapter and verse on that, Adam was not deceived by anyone he took of the fruit because of his love/lust for Eve.
You made another assumption as if it was impossible for Adam and Eve to be in different places in the garden, why is that?
His Peace to you,
Joe
P.S. Sonophone please spend some time reading the articles, there is such a wealth of knowledge to be had, I realize the "free will" concept is difficult at first but you will see that God being in control of everything is core to His plan and purpose for mankind.
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Joe as I said when Kat posted I hear you and have decided to let this post end on my behalf. I fully stand by all that I have written and that's enough. In the end we believe what we want or must. I guess that's just the way it goes.
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Hi sonophone,
Agreed!
We can agree to disagree and move on, this subject is not critical to our growth but the way we interact and treat each other most certainly is. From time to time we find the Scriptures do not shed enough light on some details and some topics as we ourselves would prefer them to be, often the various translations can muddy the waters even more so. As Craig mentioned in another thread our primary concern is to become more Christlike and there the Scriptures are quite clear.
Thank you Brother,
Joe
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Hello Gregor
Your post made me think about the fact of the principle of first the physical and then the spiritual.
I have benefited and enjoyed our exchange of views.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Gregor
Your post made me think about the fact of the principle of first the physical and then the spiritual.
I have benefited and enjoyed our exchange of views.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Me too. Thanks.
Peace.
G.