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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM

Title: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM: I know Ray has spoken on this before but I fail to understand completely. In some instances he speaks of evil spirits as 'false doctrine' whereas in scripture evil spirits have indeed 'haunted' (for lack of better) and have possessed humans. What is an evil spirit? Were they created (purposed) and exist to cause harm, aggravation and plunder to the human population, and, do you think that type of activity is prevalent today? In Job's events it appears they(?) may can cause events leading to death. Scripture states only God knows the day of death of a person but that doesn't necessarily exclude the use of external influence, perhaps an evil spirit, to aid in the death of a human. Since all 'events under the sun' are purposed by God are they acting on the will of god? If so, what possible 'good' could be the outcome of such entities and their activities? Humans are created depraved in the heart and mind and as such we are, or can be, equally motivated to carry out evil. So why the aid of evil spirits....demons....if so? Are there differences in evil spirit -verses- demon?

Lot's of general specifics I suppose and I'm certain this is all elementary to you folk, but, I can gain as maybe others will also.

gk
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 06, 2015, 02:06:05 PM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
I know Ray has spoken on this before but I fail to understand completely. In some instances he speaks of evil spirits as 'false doctrine' whereas in scripture evil spirits have indeed 'haunted' (for lack of better) and have possessed humans. What is an evil spirit? Were they created (purposed) and exist to cause harm, aggravation and plunder to the human population, and, do you think that type of activity is prevalent today? In Job's events it appears they(?) may can cause events leading to death. Scripture states only God knows the day of death of a person but that doesn't necessarily exclude the use of external influence, perhaps an evil spirit, to aid in the death of a human. Since all 'events under the sun' are purposed by God are they acting on the will of god? If so, what possible 'good' could be the outcome of such entities and their activities? Humans are created depraved in the heart and mind and as such we are, or can be, equally motivated to carry out evil. So why the aid of evil spirits....demons....if so? Are there differences in evil spirit -verses- demon?

Lot's of general specifics I suppose and I'm certain this is all elementary to you folk, but, I can gain as maybe others will also.

gk
Hi Gk,

All the evil that exists in the world was created by God (Isaiah 45:7).

God created Satan to destroy (Isaiah 54:16, 1 Cor 5:5). He is a murderer from the very beginning (John 8:44).

God gave satan temporary power to do his evil and is thus termed the 'god of this world' (2 Cor 4:4, Matt. 4:8-9).

God puts a limit on evil by 'framing' it (Jeremiah 18:11).

Hence evil is never out of God's control or getting out of hand in His plan (Eph 1:11, see the story of Job also).

God Himself does not do evil though (Job 34:10, Deut 32:4).

All the evil in this creation is being used as an experience to humble humanity (Ecc. 1:13). It's a necessary part of a greater process for transforming all mankind into the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29).

Scriptures don't always show satan's precense in the dispatching or doing of evil but you can bet he is there. For example the "evil spirit FROM the Lord" (1 Sam 16:14-16, 19). I have no doubt satan was there causing these spirits to come forth and do the things they said they would do. Yet who created satan? God! So God is responsbility and satan is accountable. God created evil but God doesn't do evil.

We also see another time where lying spirits were sent into the mouth of prophets by the Lord to be the downfall of the king of isreal. I gaurentee you again that satan was there just like when he came before God to destroy job.

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Most importantly you have to understand that evil is NOT sin. It has no moral bias. When carnal men use evil then it becomes sin. However God created evil for the purpose of saving humanity (1 Cor 5:5). God turns evil to good at appointed times (Gen. 50:20).

Evil spirits certainly exist today and are doing exactly what they have been doing for so many thousands of years. All you have to do is turn on your T.V. to see that Satan is alive and well. The god of this world is running things just as He has for a long time now. As ray said, Man is either in war, getting out of war, or preparing for war. In the end though, God is responsible for everything and certainly takes that responsbility upon himself by dying for the sins of the world and by reconciling every last thing to Himself.

This is how I understand it and God willing it will help you better understand the Sovereignty of God and the existance of evil.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 06, 2015, 02:12:40 PM: One other thing I will add is that God has a plan and He has a will. Sometimes His plan for accomplishing that Will can seem almost like contradictions. Just think about pharoe in Egypt and how God told pharoe to let His people go but then hardened pharoe's heart so that he would not. Paul explains this as God's right in being The Potter and we the clay. He has the ability to make vessels of honor and dishonor along the way towards accomplishing His will. Another example is that God will's for all humanity to be saved but His plan right now is that the vast majority of humanity doesn't believe in Him.

Isaiah 55:8-11
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God's plan is perfect though and He is perfect. So God won't fail, His word won't return to Him void. He will accomplish all His desires in the end.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: rick on June 06, 2015, 02:24:10 PM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
Since all 'events under the sun' are purposed by God are they acting on the will of god? y

Satan or any other evil spirits or demons, however one coins them do not have free will anymore than we do.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Kat on June 06, 2015, 03:18:47 PM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
Since all 'events under the sun' are purposed by God are they acting on the will of god? If so, what possible 'good' could be the outcome of such entities and their activities? Humans are created depraved in the heart and mind and as such we are, or can be, equally motivated to carry out evil. So why the aid of evil spirits....demons....if so? Are there differences in evil spirit -verses- demon?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

Well it seems that this world is intended to have a vast array of evil and wickedness, yes from humans carrying out their share, but there is the whole other spiritual dominion. I believe there are spirit being that interact with human in a multitude of ways, demons (also known as devil's angels, working wickedness are mentioned many times in Scripture.

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

That the elect will judge 'angels' makes me wonder if that is referring to the devil's angels? But I cannot even begin to imagine what all is going on in that dominion and what will be worked out in that enormous aspect of God's creation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 07, 2015, 12:23:56 AM: I've "seen" some things, but whether what I "saw" was a glimpse into another realm, or a presence in this one, or a vision, or an evil imagination, or an hallucination, I can't say.

But I've no doubt that Ray was right in saying that "demons" are false doctrines. The word itself means "little teachings". And these I HAVE seen, felt, experienced, and been affected by, possessed by, and placed in bondage to. "False Doctrines" are not simply boxes to be ticked or avoided when choosing our "doctrinal positions". But that's to be lived, and can't really be explained very well.

From Thayers:

G1142
δαίμων
daimōn
Thayer Definition:
1) a god, a goddess
1a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad
2) in the NT, an evil spirit
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from daio (to distribute fortunes)

From Strongs:

δαίμων
daimōn
dah'ee-mown
From δαίω daiō (to distribute fortunes); a demon or super natural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil.

BOTH of those 'definitions' make theological assumptions, imo. The words used by the writers under the inspiration of God were precise and meaningful...used by translators and preachers, not always so-much so.

It's interesting to note that there are only three times in the NT when a "daimon" (usually translated in the KJV as "devil" is used for what might be considered a single 'being'. The rest of the times that the KJV mentions 'devils', the word used is a compound word:

δαιμονίζομαι
daimonizomai

which has to do completely with the 'effect' of the 'devil'--to be "under the influence of" "possessed by" or similar.

"Spirits" in the KJV Greek usually comes from the Greek πνεῦμα pneuma. So are "evil spirits" "demons"? I can tell you the word used is not the same, and that's all I can tell you.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 07, 2015, 12:52:16 AM: One other small correction that may have large impact. We are neither created nor born 'depraved' in heart and mind. We are created and born 'weak'. If we are ever 'depraved', it came later. And no thought ever thought by man is more 'depraved' then that God will torture any of His creatures/sons and daughters for all eternity.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 07, 2015, 01:45:49 AM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on June 07, 2015, 12:23:56 AM
I've "seen" some things, but whether what I "saw" was a glimpse into another realm, or a presence in this one, or a vision, or an evil imagination, or an hallucination, I can't say.

But I've no doubt that Ray was right in saying that "demons" are false doctrines. The word itself means "little teachings". And these I HAVE seen, felt, experienced, and been affected by, possessed by, and placed in bondage to. "False Doctrines" are not simply boxes to be ticked or avoided when choosing our "doctrinal positions". But that's to be lived, and can't really be explained very well.

From Thayers:

G1142
δαίμων
daimōn
Thayer Definition:
1) a god, a goddess
1a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad
2) in the NT, an evil spirit
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from daio (to distribute fortunes)

From Strongs:

δαίμων
daimōn
dah'ee-mown
From δαίω daiō (to distribute fortunes); a demon or super natural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil.

BOTH of those 'definitions' make theological assumptions, imo. The words used by the writers under the inspiration of God were precise and meaningful...used by translators and preachers, not always so-much so.

It's interesting to note that there are only three times in the NT when a "daimon" (usually translated in the KJV as "devil" is used for what might be considered a single 'being'. The rest of the times that the KJV mentions 'devils', the word used is a compound word:

δαιμονίζομαι
daimonizomai

which has to do completely with the 'effect' of the 'devil'--to be "under the influence of" "possessed by" or similar.

"Spirits" in the KJV Greek usually comes from the Greek πνεῦμα pneuma. So are "evil spirits" "demons"? I can tell you the word used is not the same, and that's all I can tell you.

That's interesting. Demons (false doctrines) can be defined "to distribute fortunes."

FALSE (lying) DOCTRINES:

Satan in the Garden

4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave [distributed] some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

DISTRIBUTE (false) FORTUNES...

11"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over [the Queen/Babylon who lived sensuously to glorify herself], because no one buys their cargoes any more--

12 cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,…

DISTRIBUTE (counterfeit) FORTUNES

The Temptation of Jesus

8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
'

DISTRIBUTE (counterfeit) FORTUNES

and asked, "How much will you pay me to betray Jesus to you?" And they gave him thirty pieces of silver.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Ian 155 on June 07, 2015, 03:50:15 AM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
I know Ray has spoken on this before but I fail to understand completely. In some instances he speaks of evil spirits as 'false doctrine' whereas in scripture evil spirits have indeed 'haunted' (for lack of better) and have possessed humans. What is an evil spirit? Were they created (purposed) and exist to cause harm, aggravation and plunder to the human population, and, do you think that type of activity is prevalent today? In Job's events it appears they(?) may can cause events leading to death. Scripture states only God knows the day of death of a person but that doesn't necessarily exclude the use of external influence, perhaps an evil spirit, to aid in the death of a human. Since all 'events under the sun' are purposed by God are they acting on the will of god? If so, what possible 'good' could be the outcome of such entities and their activities? Humans are created depraved in the heart and mind and as such we are, or can be, equally motivated to carry out evil. So why the aid of evil spirits....demons....if so? Are there differences in evil spirit -verses- demon?

Lot's of general specifics I suppose and I'm certain this is all elementary to you folk, but, I can gain as maybe others will also.

gk

An evil Spirit is unseen... I believe its main function is to oppose or exult itself above God by manipulating our thoughts or our understanding (they dwell/operate in high places)heavenly places.To me that represents our understanding impacting our minds or thoughts .They are false spirits and they are liers... their "father" is the devil. Our Father is God

I am not sure that a demon and an evil spirit are one and the same
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 07, 2015, 03:50:38 AM: Dave I agree, I seen somethings myself, what I seen was darkness all around and there was things fluttering around in that darkness, what I seen was right there with me, whether in a vision or in another realm like you said but I seen it. It is there, it is all around us!

Psa 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.

Job 10:21-22 (KJV)

21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places

Psalms 23:4 (KJV)

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 07, 2015, 11:43:32 AM: Hi Dave, I appreciate the correction, it's a small thing but no impact as 'depraved' can be defined as 'morally corrupt', and morally corrupt we are. I'm sure we could argue that for a time but there would be no point as we would find ourselves, at the end, agreeing that 'weakness', first or whenever, leads to actions that show as morally depraved, corrupt, 'weak', what have you. A small nugget but nonetheless useless in any argument, which we have none. And I'm way past the point of believing the 'demon' that a creator would use eternal torture for his creation regardless of how 'bad' we are. Thanks for the definition of demon, and your check box example is good. That helps. Appreciate you sharing.

"An evil Spirit is unseen... I believe its main function is to oppose or exult itself above God by manipulating our thoughts or our understanding (they dwell/operate in high places)heavenly places.To me that represents our understanding impacting our minds or thoughts .They are false spirits and they are liers.."-----Ian

"manipulating our thoughts"....."impacting our minds or thoughts"

Ian, that's about as centered as it can get. For me anyway. Thank you.

While I can't admit to 'seeing things' (and I hope I never do), I am in constant argument with myself, and for some time now, as to why at one point in life I was ravishing in the 'solidness' of my belief in God/Christ and scripture, only now to find myself doubting EVERYTHING. I don't want to get centered on me, (not the reason for the post) but the doubting is undeniably strong and gets stronger every single day and I wonder where this could be coming from. I've known nothing like it. It's relentless, tiring, and (whoever/whatever it is)...is devouring every strand of 'belief' and I wonder 'where is my God who does not abandon..??, (or at least I always believed he wouldn't.)

So back to my post, is it possible that 'evil spirit's are indeed 'roaming the earth' looking for any weakness to devour, and if they "do not have free will any more that we do"---Rick...then why would this creator need to 'send forth' in such a manner? If that is 'truth' then the conquering is a silly point as 'we all' have no ability to fight those battles. We are not, and will not be 'warriors' in an un-seen battle where we have not the armor to defend ourselves in the fight. If there are 'evil spirit's that wage these battles (in the human mind) they know we are armor-less. They must laugh at our attempts to fight by 're-call' of scripture verses. Where is the truth?...where is our 'defense' mechanism and how do we, as mere 'weak' humans, trigger our defense to gain a foot-hold in what seems a losing battle in the front?
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Kat on June 07, 2015, 12:58:45 PM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 07, 2015, 11:43:32 AM

While I can't admit to 'seeing things' (and I hope I never do), I am in constant argument with myself, and for some time now, as to why at one point in life I was ravishing in the 'solidness' of my belief in God/Christ and scripture, only now to find myself doubting EVERYTHING. I don't want to get centered on me, (not the reason for the post) but the doubting is undeniably strong and gets stronger every single day and I wonder where this could be coming from. I've known nothing like it. It's relentless, tiring, and (whoever/whatever it is)...is devouring every strand of 'belief' and I wonder 'where is my God who does not abandon..??, (or at least I always believed he wouldn't.)

So back to my post, is it possible that 'evil spirit's are indeed 'roaming the earth' looking for any weakness to devour, and if they "do not have free will any more that we do"---Rick...then why would this creator need to 'send forth' in such a manner? If that is 'truth' then the conquering is a silly point as 'we all' have no ability to fight those battles. We are not, and will not be 'warriors' in an un-seen battle where we have not the armor to defend ourselves in the fight. If there are 'evil spirit's that wage these battles (in the human mind) they know we are armor-less. They must laugh at our attempts to fight by 're-call' of scripture verses. Where is the truth?...where is our 'defense' mechanism and how do we, as mere 'weak' humans, trigger our defense to gain a foot-hold in what seems a losing battle in the front?

Hi gk, I believe that it is very important, even critical to our faith, to have some way to feel secure in truth, for me it is the Scripture. I totally believe that God inspired the Apostles in their writings and what is now our NT. Now I also recognize that translations have corrupted that to a degree, so God sent Ray Smith and now I have confidence in studying, that I can overcome the error and see the absolute truth that were in the original writings.

So I rely heavily on God's Word to teach me and I firmly believe God uses it to reveal everything that He desires for us to know concerning His truth and that in turn gives us confidence and assurance. Yes there are unseen forces/powers that we war against in this world...

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

But God has given us a sure defense that will not fail us.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
v. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

v. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
v. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
v. 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
v. 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
v. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
v. 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

All of this is revealed in God Word (the 'Bread' of life) if we study and believe what it says. Of course praying is our way of showing we seek contact with God, by taking that time and making the effect to talk to Him... He wants us to show we desire Him!

John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,
v. 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 07, 2015, 01:22:42 PM: I will add to what Kat posted about our warfare. Scripture is very powerful and not to be under estimated. The Word of God made flesh is Jesus and demons tremble at His very name.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Matthew 8:28 When He [Jesus] had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

God is our defender and protector from all forces in this world be they of men or other dominions. There is no power other than God.

Deuteronomy 31:6 “Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”

2Ki 6:15-17 "And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?" So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and hesaw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha."

Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.

Lastly, we are more than conquorers in all things through Christ Jesus. We are certainly not defenseless for if God is for us, who can be against us?

Romans 8:31-37
"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

You asked, "why would the creator need to send forth in this way?" It's all part of God's plan. He calls it a strange plan and tells us not to lean on our own understanding. The pot is marred in the hands of the potter the first time it is made so he makes it again a second time. We are being made again a second time. Conceived by the seed of God from on high so that we can be birthed spiritually into the kingdom of God. God's ways are perfect and He is perfect. You have to trust in Him.

Isaiah 28:21 For the Lord will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be angry as in the Valley of Gibeon— That He may do His work, His awesome work, And bring to pass His act, His strange act.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

2 Samuel 22:31As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him

Psalm 18:30As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 07, 2015, 01:42:13 PM: 2 Timothy 3:12-17 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 07, 2015, 02:04:57 PM: Quote
I am in constant argument with myself, and for some time now, as to why at one point in life I was ravishing in the 'solidness' of my belief in God/Christ and scripture, only now to find myself doubting EVERYTHING. I don't want to get centered on me, (not the reason for the post) but the doubting is undeniably strong and gets stronger every single day and I wonder where this could be coming from. I've known nothing like it. It's relentless, tiring, and (whoever/whatever it is)...is devouring every strand of 'belief' and I wonder 'where is my God who does not abandon..??, (or at least I always believed he wouldn't.)

21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.

7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,

8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

You asked, where is the doubt coming from? It's coming from you, gk. Nothing out there can make you doubt.

37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You have a choice.

When Thomas was doubting, Jesus didn't look for the one outside of Thomas as the cause for Thomas' doubt.

John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

1 I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away!—

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh.

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,492.msg3821.html#msg3821
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 07, 2015, 02:35:47 PM: So, by the power of the [ s ]word of God, I have been given the ability to utterly demolish any and all arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and I have taken every thought captive to obey Christ, that anything out there can make you, or me or anyone else doubt.

Acts 5:

33 When they heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them.

34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while.

35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men.

36 For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.

37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered.

38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail;

39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!”

If what you have learned is from God, you can doubt all you want, but won't be able to overthrow it.

By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" ... For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?

And just to sum up:

Perseverance in Temptation

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his/her own lust.

1 What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you?

2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

4 You adulterous people!c Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

5 Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”?

6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.

10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

I like the lyrics to this song by Sheryl Crow:

Something is happening
Everything's different but everything is fine, yea
This is the good stuff
Yesterday's only what you leave behind
It's only in your mind

No use pretending
You never existed until you saw the light, yea
Oh you're just beginning
You haven't missed it, it's all ahead of you
And you know what to do

You gotta talk to the One Who made you
Talk to the One who understands
Talk to the One who gave you
All the light in your eyes

Here comes the world
And she is beautifully mysterious
She's got it all and you say
"Give it to me" <----- (bad call, ha ha!)

Nobody's happy
That's not the world I know inside
Where everybody hides

You gotta talk to the One Who loves you
Talk to the One who understands

...
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: rick on June 07, 2015, 03:23:20 PM: Quote from: Ian 155 on June 07, 2015, 03:50:15 AM
Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
I know Ray has spoken on this before but I fail to understand completely. In some instances he speaks of evil spirits as 'false doctrine' whereas in scripture evil spirits have indeed 'haunted' (for lack of better) and have possessed humans. What is an evil spirit? Were they created (purposed) and exist to cause harm, aggravation and plunder to the human population, and, do you think that type of activity is prevalent today? In Job's events it appears they(?) may can cause events leading to death. Scripture states only God knows the day of death of a person but that doesn't necessarily exclude the use of external influence, perhaps an evil spirit, to aid in the death of a human. Since all 'events under the sun' are purposed by God are they acting on the will of god? If so, what possible 'good' could be the outcome of such entities and their activities? Humans are created depraved in the heart and mind and as such we are, or can be, equally motivated to carry out evil. So why the aid of evil spirits....demons....if so? Are there differences in evil spirit -verses- demon?

Lot's of general specifics I suppose and I'm certain this is all elementary to you folk, but, I can gain as maybe others will also.

gk

An evil Spirit is unseen... I believe its main function is to oppose or exult itself above God by manipulating our thoughts or our understanding.

Hi Ian,

According to my understanding from Ray’s writings is that Satan is the waster, created for the purpose of bringing temptations in our lives, I know the story from Christendom how they once led me to believe Satan was this arch angle who exult himself above God which is not the truth at all.

Satan was created Satan, a murder and a liar from the beginning and will remain so until he emerges from the lake of fire.

Why do you believe these evil spirits oppose God or exult themselves above God ? They would have to be capable of free will to do either or and we know free will is only a myth that doesn’t
hold water.

When I think about the angles that kept not their first estate I think what caused them to give up their first estate? God is the originator of ALL causes and all causes are according to His pleasure and purpose according to His counsel.

Im sorry Ian, your statement comes straight out of Christendom’s false doctrine of theology. Satan can only do what is given him to do from above and nothing more or even for that matter nothing less either.

Satan has his job to do given him by our creator and the creator will make sure Satan does his job well because our being made in the image of God depends on Satan doing his job well.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 07, 2015, 03:58:28 PM: Is evil a bad thing? No its not, it is a tool in the hand of Jesus!

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

As Kat had stated with scripture that God has given man a experience of evil to humble him.

gk, your question; Where is the truth?...where is our 'defense' mechanism and how do we, as mere 'weak' humans, trigger our defense to gain a foot-hold in what seems a losing battle in the front?

Where is the truth? Jesus is the truth, His word is truth. It is not a battle of good and evil, it is the knowledge of good and evil. Kat gave you scriptures Eph 6:10 -18 put on the whole armour of God! Jesus is the whole armour of God, Jesus is the truth and the truth will set you free!
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: rick on June 07, 2015, 04:34:21 PM: Quote from: Michael G on June 07, 2015, 03:58:28 PM
Is evil a bad thing? No its not, it is a tool in the hand of Jesus!

Hi Mike,

Although evil is a tool used in the hand of God to humble us, its not a good thing . One day evil will be abolished . It is a evil thing to commit murder or to abuse animals or to steal so on and so forth.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 07, 2015, 06:05:17 PM: Quote from: Rick on June 07, 2015, 04:34:21 PM
Quote from: Michael G on June 07, 2015, 03:58:28 PM
Is evil a bad thing? No its not, it is a tool in the hand of Jesus!

Hi Mike,

Although evil is a tool used in the hand of God to humble us, its not a good thing . One day evil will be abolished . It is a evil thing to commit murder or to abuse animals or to steal so on and so forth.

Hi Rick

Its a tool Rick, its a good tool in the hands of God to produce Sons. If evil is a bad thing then why did God create it? Back to what was stated, a experience of evil God gave to man to humble him!

Eze 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

Ezekiel 14:22-23 (KJV)

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.

Evil has its purpose Rick and it shall all pass through the Fire...

Rick I never said it was good for men to do evil.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: rick on June 07, 2015, 07:22:23 PM: Quote from: Michael G on June 07, 2015, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: Rick on June 07, 2015, 04:34:21 PM
Quote from: Michael G on June 07, 2015, 03:58:28 PM
Is evil a bad thing? No its not, it is a tool in the hand of Jesus!

Hi Mike,

Although evil is a tool used in the hand of God to humble us, its not a good thing . One day evil will be abolished . It is a evil thing to commit murder or to abuse animals or to steal so on and so forth.

Rick I never said it was good for men to do evil.

Hi Mike,

Sorry friend, I misunderstood your meaning, wouldn’t be the first time I misunderstood someone’s meaning in the course of my life.

Take care Mike and God Bless.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 07, 2015, 09:09:15 PM: The Lake of Fire - Part X

THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN

SATAN’S ROLE IN SALVATION

Satan does play a role in the salvation of the human race. Satan is just one more "evil" that God uses in bringing many sons into glory. The very reason that the above heading might turn some heads is not because it isn’t true or completely Scriptural, but rather because the world has been deceived about most of these spiritual things. God "created evil" (Isa. 45:7.) God does not create things that do not serve a good purpose. By the way, the word translated into "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra, and it is the very same word translated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times as "evil" throughout the Old Testament.

Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN.’ God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part; this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable,) but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ:

"Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29);

"And He [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2.)

Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil." Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were too weak to resist the temptation to sin.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

The Lake of Fire

Installment XV, Part C

The Myth of ‘Free Will’ Exposed

It has been foolishly asked from time immemorial whether God could ever build a rock so heavy that even He couldn’t lift it. Let me suggest, that if we let “will” represent a rock, and “free will” a rock so heavy that God can’t lift it, then God has indeed, finally built a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it! For just like the proverbial immovable object, man’s phantom “free will” has become God’s very Own Achilles heel. The only Sovereign-Buster in the universe is man’s fabled “free will.” According to Christian doctrine: the “Irresistible Force”—GOD’S will; has been decidedly and eternally thwarted by the “immovable object”—MAN’S will.

....

I often receive emails from readers who assert that the word “evil” in this verse should be translated “calamity.” That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a “calamity” rather than an “evil?” What would be gained by calling “evils” by the name “calamities”? That is nonsense.

Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated “evil” in Isaiah 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for “calamity” is the Hebrew word ade which means “misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means “bad or evil.” It is the same word used for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil [ra].” It was not the tree of the knowledge of “good and calamity.” Did Jacob really mean to say, “a calamitous beast” had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)? Did Israel really “do calamity in the sight of God” by worshipping Balaam, or did they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).

The Hebrew ra means “bad or evil” and it is used over four hundred times to represent bad or evil, not calamity.

God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil against His creatures all day long.

Understand that I take no emotional pleasure in teaching these truths other than that they are absolutely necessary if we are to understand the deeper ways of God with His creatures. But I will haste to add that like all of God’s deeper truths they can only be discerned spiritually by the Spirit of God. The carnal mind cannot and will not understand these truths.

THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED EVIL

This is all the strange work of God. There is no free will about it. We are all born out of a dark womb into the natural light of day, but this too is but a parable. We must be “born again” out of spiritual darkness of this age into the glorious light of the Sun of God. It is a painful journey, and requires an experience of evil to accomplish.

“And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith” (Ecclesiastes 1:13).

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Ian 155 on June 08, 2015, 05:27:18 AM: [/quote]

An evil Spirit is unseen... I believe its main function is to oppose or exult itself above God by manipulating our thoughts or our understanding.
[/quote]

Hi Ian,

According to my understanding from Ray’s writings is that Satan is the waster, created for the purpose of bringing temptations in our lives, I know the story from Christendom how they once led me to believe Satan was this arch angle who exult himself above God which is not the truth at all.

Satan was created Satan, a murder and a liar from the beginning and will remain so until he emerges from the lake of fire.

Why do you believe these evil spirits oppose God or exult themselves above God ? They would have to be capable of free will to do either or and we know free will is only a myth that doesn’t
hold water.

Im sorry Ian, your statement comes straight out of Christendom’s false doctrine of theology. Satan can only do what is given him to do from above and nothing more or even for that matter nothing less either.

[/quote]

Hi there...consider the following, underlines are mine

2Th 2:3 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?

Luk 14:11 For everyone exalting himself shall be humbled, and humbling himself shall be exalted.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

100 % this deception/lie is allowed... until one gets given eyes to see and overcoming power to overcome which as you know comes from His blood and His testimony

Gen 3 2Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest you be dying..
Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,
Gen 3:5 for the Elohim knows that, in the day you eat of it, unclosed shall be your eyes, and you become as the Elohim, knowing good and evil.

Wicked Spirits are an absolute must for the plan of salvation as are lies and deceptions we encounter daily, yea ,by the minute...

ps why do you bring free will into the mix ???
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: John from Kentucky on June 08, 2015, 03:13:10 PM: gk,

Are you the GaryK and the Horseman from the past? If so, welcome back. I found your posts helpful.

If you are not the reincarnation of gk's from the past, then welcome anyway. :D

John
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 08, 2015, 09:48:58 PM: Thanks John. Indeed I am. MIA for a while. I appreciate the welcome back.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 08, 2015, 10:24:31 PM: "Hi gk, I believe that it is very important, even critical to our faith, to have some way to feel secure in truth, for me it is the Scripture." Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. --KAT

Thanks Kat. That's a realist reply, and appreciated. All too often I forget of that particular verse. Unless 'spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places' has been mis-interpreted then it appears that evil spirits are real and do what they do as instructed and allowed....to a point.

"You asked, where is the doubt coming from? It's coming from you, gk. Nothing out there can make you doubt."--GINA

Of course it is, and, of course there is outside influence 'out there', hence, Eph 6:12. When Jesus used the word 'sift', did he mean the disciple was sifting his own mind?

"Im sorry Ian, your statement comes straight out of Christendom’s false doctrine of theology. Satan can only do what is given him to do from above and nothing more or even for that matter nothing less either."--RICK

It appears you've deflated your own argument.

"gk, your question; Where is the truth?...where is our 'defense' mechanism and how do we, as mere 'weak' humans, trigger our defense to gain a foot-hold in what seems a losing battle in the front? "Where is the truth? Jesus is the truth, His word is truth. It is not a battle of good and evil, it is the knowledge of good and evil. Kat gave you scriptures Eph 6:10 -18 put on the whole armour of God! Jesus is the whole armour of God, Jesus is the truth and the truth will set you free!--MICHAEL G

I appreciate the words but you know, and I know, we all know, we can do nothing of our own. That small part is a learned point. I've stated in another post and I'll stand by it, 'a mustard seed of faith IS a mountain', but it's a gift, and until it's given....in large chunks or small portions, our understanding and our growth in faith is 'given'. I don't believe we can decide, on our own, to dress ourselves in faith on any given day.

Thanks for the viewpoints all.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 11:08:19 PM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 08, 2015, 10:24:31 PM

"You asked, where is the doubt coming from? It's coming from you, gk. Nothing out there can make you doubt."--GINA

Of course it is, and, of course there is outside influence 'out there', hence, Eph 6:12. When Jesus used the word 'sift', did he mean the disciple was sifting his own mind?

Thanks for the viewpoints all.

Hi, gk

You're welcome. Sorry I wasn't much help.

Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial

31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."…

What exactly does it mean to be sifted like wheat? To have your faith tested. Satan only appeals to those weakness that are ALREADY in carnal minds and hearts.

And Jesus prayed for them that their faith wouldn't fail and WHEN (not "if") they turned again they'd strengthen their brothers. And I believe that Jesus is praying for all His elect. And if Jesus has elected you, you've got strengthening your brothers to look forward to. :)
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 11:09:43 PM: I'm pulling for ya, gk! I'm really glad to see you back here. :)
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 08, 2015, 11:19:24 PM: "that your faith may not fail"--GINA

Good point. Something to think about.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 08, 2015, 11:57:50 PM: Hi gk, I dont agree with part of your quote. Part of your quote: I don't believe we can decide, on our own, to dress ourselves in faith on any given day.

I make choices all day long, sometimes I make the wrong choice and Jesus holds me accountable and by doing so I judge that choice and deal with it so that next time I might make the right choice. Yes it is His work that causes me to make the choice but I still make it. When I get up and start my day I can make a choice to believe His word or not. I can make a choice to put on the armour of God or not.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

Luke 10:19 (KJV)

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I have the power to overcome, but just like LRay said, God won't force me to use it I have to make the choice to use it. Thats part of the truth I make a choice to put on....

So all day long I decide to use it or not.

In Christ
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Ian 155 on June 09, 2015, 06:07:29 AM: Quote from: Michael G on June 08, 2015, 11:57:50 PM
Hi gk, I dont agree with part of your quote. Part of your quote: I don't believe we can decide, on our own, to dress ourselves in faith on any given day.

[/color]

Personally I agree with GK... although I have made many decisions and do so daily, I find or have found that even when I have a knowledge of the right response/action , I often lean toward the contrary and often see how weak I actually am

Faith is a gift, however, it is given in His time and at His leisure, If I do put on the belt of truth (for example)I can only put on/walk in truth, relative to what I have been given/shown

There may be some other "formula" but that's how I experience faith...

He builds his temple precise and carefully
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 09, 2015, 10:37:57 AM: Hi Ian, you agree with what I said, you said you lean toward the contrary most times. Yes Ian you made a choice to lean that way.
Yes it is Jesus who gives me his faith and He opens my eyes to these truths...

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

Luke 10:19 (KJV)

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you

All day long I decide when circumstances come upon me from the Lord to make the decision to use His truths or not. And when I do I exercise them and they grow in me and become stronger in me and it produces a overcomer in me, all by the work of Jesus!

Yes it is His work and this is how he builds his temple. I have to do this all day everyday for as long as it takes.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

PS and it is constant!

In Christ
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Kat on June 09, 2015, 12:05:39 PM: Hi Michael,

This is one of those things that is so very hard to keep certain aspects straight in our minds, I certainly have to keep studying the basic on these things. It seems our carnal minds just drift off in the wrong direction, if we do not keep ourselves well in tune with this truth.

We do not have a will free, nor is there even a 'limited' free will... which seems to be what you are indicating? Cause and effect is the reason we make every single decision, to even the less and most minute detail, and that cause always goes back to God, because He is totally sovereign. But it is OUR own decision, or so it seems in our mind, so we carry out the action, words or thoughts whatever reason that we do, that's why we are accountable.

Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ------------------------

Of course all theologians are quick to point out that man does not possess total free will. Man's will is obviously limited we are told. Oh really? So it is "limited free will" that Satan and all humans possess, is it? Does no one ever bother to question the contradictions of Christian doctrine?

"Iimited, a. restricted," Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary, page 963.

"free, a, without restriction," Webster’s Twentieth Century dictionary page, page 682.

Does everyone know the meaning of the word "contradiction?" Only Satan could convince otherwise intelligent people that they have a "limited" -- restricted, "free" -- without restriction "will." For sure man has a will; however, it is anything but FREE!

"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"To will" requires a "work" of GOD! We all choose as we choose because there are things and forces and situations by the millions beyond anyone’s control that CAUSE US TO CHOOSE AS WE DO! It matters not that you cannot see or feel the cause. It is there and it does its work on you. And when causes make you choose, then that particular choice could not have ever been otherwise. God is the great CAUSE of all there is. I know Christians by the hundreds of millions deny it and deny God's Word that teaches it. That unbelief and lack of faith, however, does not change the facts of God’s Word or the laws of physics.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ------

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2368.0.html ---------

Yes, God has determined our choices and He has determine the outcome of everything. That is how He knows all will be well with all.

You do have choices and you do make your choices. You have a choice between apple pie for dessert or cherry pie for dessert. It is YOUR CHOICE. You can and will choose the one that YOU PREFER. God does not force or make you choose the cherry when you really want the apple. Have you EVER had such a thing happen to you? Of course not. Well, then, you DO make your own choices and you choose what YOU prefer. This is not as hard as we make it. But of course you cannot choose the apple if God has predetermined that you will choose the cherry. But that's okay, because you will not WANT the apple if God has predetermined that you must choose the cherry.
v

There could be hundreds of reasons: God may want the the apple industry to decline or increase for purposes of forcing new industry in a particular area of the country. He might use weather patterns to effect the production of one over the other, thus making one or the other many times more expensive, thus causing a decline in purchasing cherry pies or apple pies, which would then effect other crops in a particular part of a country or nation, which would effect that area's economy, for purposes of causes unemployment or more employment (as the case may be according to His intentions), which could then effect the economy of a whole nation which would have a direct cause and effect relationship between other nations, and the ENTIRE WORLD, etc.
v

It will change you life, once you come to believe these truths to the depth of your being. I exaggerate not when I say that I have meditated hundreds and thousands of hours over these truths. That is why no theologian with twelve college degrees can come up with an intelligent argument against these truths, even though they themselves believe the complete opposite. One giant benefit of knowing that all is of God according to His plan and intention, is that you will no longer cry over spilt milk. Yesterday's problems and heartaches will not haunt you. You will not worry anymore over why you didn't do differently. NOW you can learn and do differently--FORGETTING THE PAST.
God be with you,
Ray
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 01:04:42 PM: I see what Michael G.'s saying and I agree with him. He has a choice. And he understands that the choice is his to make. He also understands that God is the cause behind any right choice, and he (Michael) is accountable for any wrong choice he makes, but he is still the one doing the choosing.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: John from Kentucky on June 09, 2015, 02:55:54 PM: God is responsible for all, both good and evil.

God created evil.

God created Satan, the twisted serpent, and is responsible for all that Satan does.

God created all mankind spiritually weak. All mankind sins and does evil. We are flawed by design.

The Potter is responsible for all that He made.

The Good News is that The Potter will make all things right, through The Seed.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 09, 2015, 03:09:18 PM: Quote from: Gina on June 09, 2015, 01:04:42 PM
I see what Michael G.'s saying and I agree with him. He has a choice. And he understands that the choice is his to make. He also understands that God is the cause behind any right choice, and he (Michael) is accountable for any wrong choice he makes, but he is still the one doing the choosing.

Thats exactly what I am saying. Thanks Gina For seeing that in what I wrote.

Kat no where did I say I had free will. read it again ( All day long I decide when circumstances come upon me from the Lord to make the decision to use His truths or not. And when I do I exercise them and they grow in me and become stronger in me and it produces a overcomer in me, all by the work of Jesus! ) His work causes me to make the wrong choice and when I make the wrong choice He holds me accountable and after so many wrong choices, by holding me accountable he causes me to make the right choice and thats how I become a overcomer. By His work. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because it is God who WORKS in me both to WILL and DO of His good pleasure!

In Christ
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 03:32:19 PM: Quote from: Michael G on June 09, 2015, 03:09:18 PM
Quote from: Gina on June 09, 2015, 01:04:42 PM
I see what Michael G.'s saying and I agree with him. He has a choice. And he understands that the choice is his to make. He also understands that God is the cause behind any right choice, and he (Michael) is accountable for any wrong choice he makes, but he is still the one doing the choosing.

Thats exactly what I am saying. Thanks Gina For seeing that in what I wrote.

Kat no where did I say I had free will. read it again ( All day long I decide when circumstances come upon me from the Lord to make the decision to use His truths or not. And when I do I exercise them and they grow in me and become stronger in me and it produces a overcomer in me, all by the work of Jesus! ) His work causes me to make the wrong choice and when I make the wrong choice He holds me accountable and after so many wrong choices, by holding me accountable he causes me to make the right choice and thats how I become a overcomer. By His work. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because it is God who WORKS in me both to WILL and DO of His good pleasure!

In Christ

You're welcome, Michael. Yeah, some people are so confused over what it means to have God working in them to will and to act, they make it sound like they aren't "doing" the good works that God prepared for them beforehand.

LOL, maybe they aren't. :D

You seem very glad to have God's power working in you to act accordingly, and I can totally see how you're giving God all the credit for whatever good works you do. Remember too that God is working in you to will and to act according to the good works that he prepared beforehand that you may walk in them.

God is not working in anyone to will to do wrong. Every GOOD and perfect gift comes down from the Father of all lights. ...

God has other means to show up the weakness of our flesh.

He doesn't work in us to WILL to SIN. But He works in us to will and to do His GOOD pleasure.

Doing the wrong things is not good, so you can be certain God is not working in you to do wrong.

Maybe that's what you meant and I just misunderstood.

Keep up the good work. :)
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Kat on June 09, 2015, 04:09:15 PM: Hi Michael, good that you have the no free will thing down pat. But it's easy to have problems with the nuances of these things, if bringing the basic up for review was not for your benefit than maybe it can help somebody else.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 09, 2015, 05:12:33 PM: "I have the power to overcome"--MICHAEL G

Sounds like you're sitting in the captains chair. But........you do not 'have the power to overcome'........not by YOUR power. At least it doesn't appear to be what Ray has taught and I'll certainly concede the argument if someone can show me where Ray did, or scripture....one and the same.

I'm not speaking of 'choice'. We agree on that point, we choose all day long. But even with that we will make the choice that has been designed for us to make.

Perhaps this is the part I stated that you don't agree: "I don't believe we can decide, on our own"--GK

"All day long I decide ...........to make the decision to use His truths or not.....--MICHAEL G

You make a 'choice', the outcome has been determined long before.

"He also understands that God is the cause behind any ........ choice"---GINA

Maybe.

The thrust point was of 'faith'. Not of choice. I remain at this point that 'faith' is given.....not chosen. We may 'overcome' and be increased with faith, but that too is by design. Not by anything of our own accomplishment.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 05:25:49 PM: Quote from: gk@rivervalley on June 09, 2015, 05:12:33 PM

"I have the power to overcome"--MICHAEL G

Sounds like you're sitting in the captains chair. But........you do not 'have the power to overcome'........not by YOUR power. At least it doesn't appear to be what Ray has taught and I'll certainly concede the argument if someone can show me where Ray did, or scripture....one and the same.

I'm not speaking of 'choice'. We agree on that point, we choose all day long. But even with that we will make the choice that has been designed for us to make.

Perhaps this is the part I stated that you don't agree: "I don't believe we can decide, on our own"--GK

"All day long I decide ...........to make the decision to use His truths or not.....--MICHAEL G

You make a 'choice', the outcome has been determined long before.

"He also understands that God is the cause behind any ........ choice"---GINA

Maybe.

The thrust point was of 'faith'. Not of choice. I remain at this point that 'faith' is given.....not chosen. We may 'overcome' and be increased with faith, but that too is by design. Not by anything of our own accomplishment.

gk,

You're jealous. So were the Pharisees.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 05:29:44 PM: 18 And He [Jesus] said to them [His disciples, of which Michael and I are], "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 05:42:37 PM: I'm not ashamed of what God has done for me, gk. I obviously have still a lot to overcome, but you have to start somewhere. I'm practicing at righteousness. How about you?

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant

5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

7 Look at what is before your eyes. If anyone is confident that he is Christ’s, let him remind himself that just as he is Christ’s, so also are we.

8 For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for BUILDING YOU UP and NOT for destroying you, I will not be ashamed.

9 I do not want to appear to be frightening you with my letters.

10 For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.”

11 Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present.

12 Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.

13 But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you.

14 For we are not overextending ourselves, as though we did not reach you. For we were the first to come all the way to you with the gospel of Christ.

15 We do not boast beyond limit in the labors of others. But our hope is that as your faith increases, our area of influence among you may be greatly enlarged,

16 so that we may preach the gospel in lands beyond you, without boasting of work already done in another’s area of influence.

17 “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 09, 2015, 10:17:55 PM: Quote from: Michael G on June 09, 2015, 10:37:57 AM
Hi Ian, you agree with what I said, you said you lean toward the contrary most times. Yes Ian you made a choice to lean that way.
Yes it is Jesus who gives me his faith and He opens my eyes to these truths...

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

Luke 10:19 (KJV)

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you

All day long I decide when circumstances come upon me from the Lord to make the decision to use His truths or not. And when I do I exercise them and they grow in me and become stronger in me and it produces a overcomer in me, all by the work of Jesus!

Yes it is His work and this is how he builds his temple. I have to do this all day everyday for as long as it takes.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

PS and it is constant!

In Christ

Mike, I don't want to 'dismantle' your thoughts, but add to them.

There have been times in my life (and I am in no way suggesting this is a 'wise' way to live) that despite my desires to the contrary, I fouled up and did the right thing. It's no surprise (to me, at least) that people 'trying' and 'choosing' can get things right. And conversely gets things wrong when they really want to. What surprises me and teaches me deeply just how sovereign God is is when those not 'trying' and 'choosing' STILL do 'right'. And those 'trying' and 'planning' still get things wrong.

The night I came to BT was one such experience like that. I was given faith in a night where I was not only NOT SEEKING, but SEEKING the opposite. I cannot (and do not) take any credit for having been given faith, BUT I still believed whereas before I did not. That's one reason why I love Paul.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: gk@rivervalley on June 09, 2015, 10:49:57 PM: "gk You're jealous. So were the Pharisees."--GINA

From where does this come? Un-necessary and not relevant. You downcast your 'spiritual eyes' not in one, but three continuing posts?

Must you turn the topic to yourself Gina? Always? Your loose cannon diatribe of scripture, high-lights of your spiritual walk and where you are in your 'righteousness', Gina, is between you and God. It wouldn't make difference to anyone if you could throw it on the floor and growl at it.

But lecturing? Don't parade. Most un-attractive.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 10, 2015, 12:06:35 AM: Hi gk, You made A choice to not have faith in what I said! heres what I said...

Quote; I have the power to overcome, but just like LRay said, God won't force me to use it I have to make the choice to use it. End of Quote.

Christ is in me, thats the power I have!

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world

And Again

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

Luke 10:19 (KJV)

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you

God has given us all a measure of faith and you choose not to use it in what I said. Now you can make a choice to use it in what LRay Smith said, here
is a quote from LRays teachings, not mine. Lake of fire series...

Jesus never sinned. Why not? Why didn't Jesus sin? I have said before: Because His Father wouldn't let Him sin, and because His Father inspired Jesus through His Holy Spirit to turn from the temptation every time. Jesus' motivation to not sin was much greater than His temptation to sin, and the stronger motivator (the love of God's Spirit in Him) always won out. This is how Jesus "overcame the world." Now then, is this powerful motivator available to us? Yes, thank God, it is:

"But you shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you..." (Acts 1:8).

And so, when a man who is tempted to spend more time looking at a woman than he should, looking at her to lust after her, the Spirit of God will give him power to turn away. God won't make you or force you to turn away, but He will give you the power to turn away, and then you have to do the turning. And should you fail to turn away before you actually lust after her, then you must "pluck out your eye. No not your literal, physical, organ of the body, but the lustful eye of your heart.

No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire.

Now gk I haven't said anything through this whole post that has not been taught by Mr Smith. I used scripture with it and now you can make a choice with the faith God has given you to believe or not! Either way it is God which will open your eyes, you will just be the one to receive

In Christ
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 10, 2015, 12:30:58 AM: Hi Dave, I agree with you. God is sovereign in everyones life, all that lived or are living are not running around doing their own thing! Your right Dave, I have never seek out God. His word says that there is none that seek God, no not one. Why would it be different for any of us? Its not, none of us sought the Lord. I never look for Lray Smiths and Dennis Vogels websites, Jesus led me right here! Dave I can see it now, I am reputed as nothing.

I have been thinking about this scripture for a while...
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The last part of that scripture, the man of sin be revealed. You know I just Didn't read from Lrays teachings and then that was it. No, it seems to me the man of sin being revealed is a process. Just thought that might fit in.
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Ian 155 on June 10, 2015, 05:48:03 AM: Quote from: Michael G on Yesterday at 10:37:57 AM
Hi Ian, you agree with what I said, you said you lean toward the contrary most times. Yes Ian you made a choice to lean that way.
Yes it is Jesus who gives me his faith and He opens my eyes to these truths...

Michael Perhaps I did or perhaps an evil spirit was sent to cause me to lean the other way, either way God got his way

I think a starting point for me and the hardest things to digest was understanding that I was not the one who made me and I, although accountable for choices, I am not responsable ...

Therefore there is now no condemnation, as i have been given understanding of the above and am therefore In Christ.

We have an advocate thank God ...I believe Pharaoh and Nero and Hitler ,hard as it may sound,have one too
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: santgem on June 10, 2015, 07:55:05 AM: What is the difference between............

I have the power to overcome VS I have overcome by the power.............

Not an English teacher but I think big, big, big difference....... ??? :-\ ;) :)
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 10, 2015, 10:01:52 AM: Quote from: santgem on June 10, 2015, 07:55:05 AM
What is the difference between............

I have the power to overcome VS I have overcome by the power.............

Not an English teacher but I think big, big, big difference....... ??? :-\ ;) :)

Hi santgem, Read what I wrote again and see where I said, I have the power to overcome comes from. Theres no difference, its not my power its His power. He has given it to me. Its right there in the scripture read it....

In Christ
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Kat on June 10, 2015, 01:19:51 PM: Hi gk,

I always likely how Ray put that faith and grace work together and all the other relevant point he brought out in this part of Bible study about 'Do James and Paul Contradict?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html ------------

“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”

In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone?)…

Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...

Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’

v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…

‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.

v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…

Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It's a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.

v. 9 …lest any man should boast.

Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here, sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.

v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…

Now if you read that, "for WE are His workmanship," well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.

From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, "for we are HIS workmanship"… What kind of workmanship?

v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…

Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith... it’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace... it’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.

v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
v
Now I’m going to start bringing this works and faith together here. First I want you to understand, good works are never referred to as ‘works of the law.’ See you could assume, that since Paul said “that by the works of the law shall no man be justified.” James said, “a man is justified by his works,” that it’s a contradiction. It’s not a contradiction. James is talking about works (and we are going to see what kind of works). Paul is talking about the works of the law. Now these are two different things. Paul tells us what works of the law are… circumcision, this observing of times and days weeks. And in other places touch not, eat not, all these dietary laws and so on. Paul talks about that through all his writings, works of the law, physical, carnal, beggarly, weak things, you see.

Now we are going to see what James talks about, when he talks about works, not works of the law. We are going to see what he talks about and see if he is talking about these days and times and circumcisions and washings and cups and eating and touch not and this endless array of laws that Israel had to do.
v
Show me, that’s what James is saying here. He said you “show me your faith without works,” which he’s saying, you can’t do it... then he says, “I’ll show you my faith by my works.” I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.

James 2:19 Thou believest (Strong’s 4100)…

The word is faith. There are two words, one is 4100 - pisteuō and then we have 4102 - pistis. One is used as a noun and one is used as a verb. It’s the same root word. Faith is a noun, I have faith 4102. How do I have faith, because I believe 4100, that’s a verb. My faith (noun) believe (verbs).

v. 19 Thou believe (or you have faith) that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Wow, James doesn’t mince words does he. He says, so you believe and you’ve got this uppity yucky lovey dovey kissy kissy huggy huggy faith in your heart, right? Well let me tell you something, so do the demons, so do the devils. Now he could have said it again, what does it profit them without works, because they believe?

v. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
v
Two other important Scriptures. Did Jesus Christ have anything to say about good works or was He one of these faith and grace people like Paul supposedly was.

Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
v. 16 Let your light so shine before men…

Now He is talking to His Apostles this is the Sermon on the Mount, if you read my last installment you know that the Sermon on the Mount is for us. This is for us, His disciples.

v. 16 … that they may see your good works…

Works of the law? It didn’t say works of the law, it said “good works.”

v. 16 …and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
end of Bible study excerpt ------------------------------------------------------

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
v. 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

So I am thinking we sometimes get 'good works' confused with how the church boost of their literal working out in the world - works of the law. But it seems more like to build up righteous character it is the inward man/woman that must learn/develop the fruit of the spirit.

Php 1:10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
v. 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
v. 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
v. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

This is so different than what the church does, though it certainly is a good thing to help the poor... but the believer's battle/struggle is inward, circumcision of the heart, a new attitude of mind.

Eph 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

P.S. I came back and added a part I realized I had left out about what James said in that excerpt from 'Do James and Paul Contradict?'
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: repottinger on June 10, 2015, 04:01:00 PM: Thank you for posting such an edifying writing by Ray, Kat!
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 10, 2015, 10:19:42 PM: Quote from: Ian 155 on June 10, 2015, 05:48:03 AM
Quote from: Michael G on Yesterday at 10:37:57 AM
Hi Ian, you agree with what I said, you said you lean toward the contrary most times. Yes Ian you made a choice to lean that way.
Yes it is Jesus who gives me his faith and He opens my eyes to these truths...

Michael Perhaps I did or perhaps an evil spirit was sent to cause me to lean the other way, either way God got his way

I think a starting point for me and the hardest things to digest was understanding that I was not the one who made me and I, although accountable for choices, I am not responsable ...

Therefore there is now no condemnation, as i have been given understanding of the above and am therefore In Christ.

We have an advocate thank God ...I believe Pharaoh and Nero and Hitler ,hard as it may sound,have one too

Hi Ian, Yes Pharaoh and Nero and Hitler have a advocate, they are of their father the devil and he is their advocate. Jesus is not their advocate right now. :)

Opps, they are dead, no advocate for them now! Sorry...
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Ian 155 on June 11, 2015, 03:48:09 AM: [/quote]

Hi Ian, Yes Pharaoh and Nero and Hitler have a advocate, they are of their father the devil and he is their advocate. Jesus is not their advocate right now. :)

Opps, they are dead, no advocate for them now! Sorry...
[/quote]

last comment, lest I become guilty of " hijack "although it does "fit" the subject of the thread ...

No one said anything about timing, regarding the 3 mentioned, however, regarding your statement on their state, please have a look at the following verses, this helped me, start with the verses preceding

ERV

Jud 1:9 Not even the archangel Michael did this. Michael argued with the devil about who would have the body of Moses. But Michael did not dare to condemn even the devil for his false accusations. Instead, Michael said, "The Lord punish you!

Jud 1:10 But these people criticize things they don't understand. They do understand some things. But they understand these things not by thinking, but by feeling, the way dumb animals understand things. And these are the things that destroy them

1Co 4:5 So don't judge anyone now. The time for judging will be when the Lord comes. He will shine light on everything that is now hidden in darkness. He will make known the secret purposes of our hearts. Then the praise each person should get will come from God.

CLV

Joh 21:21 Peter, then, perceiving this one, is saying to Jesus, "Lord, yet what of this man?

Joh 21:22 Jesus is saying to him, "If I should be wanting him to be remaining till I am coming, what is it to you? You be following Me!
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Mike Gagne on June 11, 2015, 10:14:19 AM: Ian ,I see you are offended at the truth. Heres your quote....

Quote from: Ian 155 on June 11, 2015, 03:48:09 AM

Hi Ian, Yes Pharaoh and Nero and Hitler have a advocate, they are of their father the devil and he is their advocate. Jesus is not their advocate right now. :)

Opps, they are dead, no advocate for them now! Sorry...
[/quote]

last comment, lest I become guilty of " hijack "although it does "fit" the subject of the thread ...

No one said anything about timing, regarding the 3 mentioned, however, regarding your statement on their state, please have a look at the following verses, this helped me, start with the verses preceding

ERV

Jud 1:9 Not even the archangel Michael did this. Michael argued with the devil about who would have the body of Moses. But Michael did not dare to condemn even the devil for his false accusations. Instead, Michael said, "The Lord punish you!

Jud 1:10 But these people criticize things they don't understand. They do understand some things. But they understand these things not by thinking, but by feeling, the way dumb animals understand things. And these are the things that destroy them

1Co 4:5 So don't judge anyone now. The time for judging will be when the Lord comes. He will shine light on everything that is now hidden in darkness. He will make known the secret purposes of our hearts. Then the praise each person should get will come from God.

CLV

Joh 21:21 Peter, then, perceiving this one, is saying to Jesus, "Lord, yet what of this man?

Joh 21:22 Jesus is saying to him, "If I should be wanting him to be remaining till I am coming, what is it to you? You be following Me!
[/quote]

End of your quote

Thats all I did is state what is true! Read it again.

Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Well Ian it looks like I am not the only one to make a statement as I made. Now Those men who's names you brought to this thread, do you think these men were called and chosen?

Looks like your judging me. ( Jud 1:9 Not even the archangel Michael did this.)

In Christ
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: John from Kentucky on June 11, 2015, 11:19:37 AM: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1John 1:8-10
Title: Re: Evil Spirits
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 11, 2015, 07:35:13 PM: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16205.0.html