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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Hellisfake on September 18, 2016, 06:37:32 PM
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Hi freinds!
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2 Tim 3:12
Do you guys suffer persecution? I mean more then than we are being called heretic from christians? We are living in a time when freedom of expression is obvious, at least in our democratic countries, when all are "blessed" on their own faith. This makes me wonder, where are the persecutions, what is it to suffer for Christ? I can easily see what it meant in Pauls time, but that truth 2 Tim 3:12 is still the truth in our time, but i dont se it to often.
Share your thoughts
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From the CLV:
2Ti 3:1 Now this know, that in the last days perilous periods will be present,
2Ti 3:2 for men will be selfish, fond of money, ostentatious, proud, calumniators, stubborn to parents, ungrateful, malign,
2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, implacable, adversaries, uncontrollable, fierce, averse to the good,
2Ti 3:4 traitors, rash, conceited, fond of their own gratification rather than fond of God;"
2Ti 3:5 having a form of devoutness, yet denying its power."
2Ti 3:6 These, also, shun. For of these are those who are slipping into homes and are leading into captivity little women, heaped with sins, being led by various lusts and gratifications,
2Ti 3:7 always learning and yet not at any time able to come into a realization of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now, by the method by which Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses, thus these also are withstanding the truth, men of a depraved mind, disqualified as to the faith."
2Ti 3:9 But they shall not be progressing more, for their folly shall be obvious to all, as that of those also became."
2Ti 3:10 Now you fully follow me in my teaching, motive, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance,
2Ti 3:11 persecutions, sufferings, such as occurred to me in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra: persecutions such as I undergo, and out of them all the Lord rescues me."
2Ti 3:12 And all who are wanting to live devoutly in Christ Jesus shall be persecuted.
(Chapter 2 is good also. :D )
So you see, I hope, that this statement doesn't stand completely by itself.
"Persecutions" are not "constant". They come "periodically" and from those who have a form of "devoutness", such as Paul experienced in Antioch, Iconium, Lystra and elsewhere.
Follow that line to Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra in Acts. This is the "persecutions" he faced. See from whom and why.
Do you really think it doesn't happen "in our time"? Maybe you haven't seen it often. Maybe not even "periodically", but as you go on, you will. Remember too, you don't have to BE PAUL. Those he was writing to "following me in my teaching, motive, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance" suffer as well.
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We are living in a time when freedom of expression is obvious, at least in our democratic countries, when all are "blessed" on their own faith.
mmm, what if there is still persecution but with different means to execute it? Times change and the techniques change.... Have you ever heard of 'soft power' and 'hard power'?
I think that if someone can believe that there is so much ''freedom'' around, is because that someone is not putting enough attention to his surroundings. The main weapons of today's persecution are weapons of high DISTRACTION--so better we should keep on focus before we end so far away from the truth.
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Persecute: to pursue in such a way as to injure or afflict : harass; esp : to cause to suffer because of belief. (Merriam-Webster)
So to persecution is to cause somebody to suffer. The Apostles were spreading this new gospel message to their world and in so doing they sometimes brought severe attacks on themselves that would lead to imprisonment, torture and/or death. Because the government of that time was very intolerant of people preaching against the state religion, and the religious leaders and their followers were hostile to those they believed to be heretics to the point of killing them, as was taught in the OT.
Deu 13:6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
Deu 13:9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
v.10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies...
But nowadays as you were saying there is a much greater degree of freedom of religion in many parts of the world, so a person can choose their religion or not have one at all. To suffer does not necessarily have to mean bodily injury... we can certainly suffer great mental and emotional distress from others.
When we actually begin to live what we believe, we necessarily stand apart from the world and this should make us also stand out... we are not trying to change the world, but neither can we just go along with the mainstream mentality either. The common/typical behavior of this world is one reason we should stand apart, because people are quick to judge and condemn, they easily take offense and retaliate.
On account of the beliefs we hold, there could be ridiculed or be condescended to or even shunned. Now it certainly is not the same persecution as martyrdom, but it can result in severe emotional injury nonetheless, if you're attacked in a hostile way to hurt us or our family psychologically, or our reputation, character or property, that really is persecution.
John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Rom 1:28 Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do.
v. 29 They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip
v. 30 and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents;
v. 31 they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others.
v. 32 They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them. (GNB)
So we are instructed by Paul that reiterates God's warnings in 2 Corinthians 6 concerning the world to "come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord." Everybody naturally wants to 'fit in,' but we are told to not be like that in this world, but to stand apart in how we conduct ourselves.
2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
v. 15 And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
v. 16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
v. 17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
v. 18 and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Persecute: to pursue in such a way as to injure or afflict : harass; esp : to cause to suffer because of belief. (Merriam-Webster)
So to persecution is to cause somebody to suffer. The Apostles were spreading this new gospel message to their world and in so doing they sometimes brought severe attacks on themselves that would lead to imprisonment, torture and/or death. Because the government of that time was very intolerant of people preaching against the state religion, and the religious leaders and their followers were hostile to those they believed to be heretics to the point of killing them, as was taught in the OT.
Deu 13:6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
vjhjm
Deu 13:9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
v.10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies...
But nowadays as you were saying there is a much greater degree of freedom of religion in many parts of the world, so a person can choose their religion or not have one at all. To suffer does not necessarily have to mean bodily injury... we can certainly suffer great mental and emotional distress from others.
When we actually begin to live what we believe, we necessarily stand apart from the world and this should make us also stand out... we are not trying to change the world, but neither can we just go along with the mainstream mentality either. The common/typical behavior of this world is one reason we should stand apart, because people are quick to judge and condemn, they easily take offense and retaliate.
On account of the beliefs we hold, there could be ridiculed or be condescended to or even shunned. Now it certainly is not the same persecution as martyrdom, but it can result in severe emotional injury nonetheless, if you're attacked in a hostile way to hurt us or our family psychologically, or our reputation, character or property, that really is persecution.
John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Rom 1:28 Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do.
v. 29 They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip
v. 30 and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents;
v. 31 they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others.
v. 32 They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them. (GNB)
So we are instructed by Paul that reiterates God's warnings in 2 Corinthians 6 concerning the world to "come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord." Everybody naturally wants to 'fit in,' but we are told to not be like that in this world, but to stand apart in how we conduct ourselves.
2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
v. 15 And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
v. 16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
v. 17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
v. 18 and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thanks for your coment
But its hard to get this verse to match the times we live in, the little persecution, we can experience, is nothing, I mean nothing in comparison with Paul's time.
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus Shall suffer Persecution"
If you live Godley, you SHALL suffer Persecution, its a statement, a promise, I find it difficult to see being fulfilled in the times we live in
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Hellisfake
Perhaps we don't see persecution because those who are living godly lives after Christ are very few. We all would like to think we are living godly but maybe we're just not.
Christ preached peace, love and forgiveness. I can think of a few others who did the same and were murdered for it. John Lennon, MLK Jr. Gandhi, etc.
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Hellisfake
Perhaps we don't see persecution because those who are living godly lives after Christ are very few. We all would like to think we are living godly but maybe we're just not.
Christ preached peace, love and forgiveness. I can think of a few others who did the same and were murdered for it. John Lennon, MLK Jr. Gandhi, etc.
Putting those three ordinary men in the same category as Jesus? Give me a break. Twilight Zone. Total lack of proper education in today's schools.
Spiritually barfing here.
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It's not over yet! Rev 6:11. In a time when some Christians are dying for their belief and others seem to have it easy, it's still a battle. Satan has his ways to get to us no matter what our circumstances.. If you're experiencing peace then study hard and pray all the time because the Great Tribulation is coming and it's going to be very hard for us all. It could be even harder on us who aren't feeling the persecution at this time, when it hits. God's Grace guide you.
I'm not sure but just plain apathy could be a harder form of persecution than outright physical violence. Think about it.
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I thought about it. And I don't see it. How could our apathy possibly be a form of persecution?
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It's not over yet! Rev 6:11. In a time when some Christians are dying for their belief and others seem to have it easy, it's still a battle. Satan has his ways to get to us no matter what our circumstances.. If you're experiencing peace then study hard and pray all the time because the Great Tribulation is coming and it's going to be very hard for us all. It could be even harder on us who aren't feeling the persecution at this time, when it hits. God's Grace guide you.
I'm not sure but just plain apathy could be a harder form of persecution than outright physical violence. Think about it.
There is no single great persecution coming.
I also agree with John that comparing carnal men, ghandi, john lennin, etc... to God in the flesh is rediculous. Sounds almost blasphemous to me.
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I'm just going to post these here for anybody without e-sword or such:
Persecute
G1377
διώκω
diōkō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away
2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
2a) to press on: figuratively of one who in a race runs swiftly to reach the goal
2b) to pursue (in a hostile manner)
3) in any way whatever to harass, trouble, molest one
3a) to persecute
3b) to be mistreated, suffer persecution on account of something
4) without the idea of hostility, to run after, follow after: someone
5) metaphorically, to pursue
5a) to seek after eagerly, earnestly endeavour to acquire
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged (and causative) form of a primary verb dio (to flee; compare the base of G1169 and G1249)
Citing in TDNT: 2:229, 177
That's what the word means. We know by the "persecution" events what actually took place. Here's a list of scripture where the word appears. I challenge you to look them all up and read around them as well, and to "replace" the word "persecution" or "persecute" with the main "definitions" above. There's 48 of them. That's a lot, I know...but this topic has come up so frequently over the years I think a good study is worth it.
Let's take this word out of the mouths of preachers. Let's own it.
G1377
διώκω
diōkō
Total KJV Occurrences: 48
persecuted, 13
Mat_5:10, Mat_5:12, Joh_15:20, Act_7:52, Act_22:4, Act_26:11, 1Co_4:12, 1Co_15:9, 2Co_4:9, Gal_1:13, Gal_1:23, Gal_4:29, Rev_12:13
follow, 8
Luk_17:23, Rom_14:19, 1Co_14:1, Phi_3:12, 1Th_5:15, 1Ti_6:11, 2Ti_2:22, Heb_12:14
persecute, 8
Mat_5:11, Mat_5:44, Mat_10:23, Mat_23:34, Luk_21:12, Joh_5:16, Joh_15:20, Rom_12:14
persecutest, 6
Act_9:4-5 (2), Act_22:7-8 (2), Act_26:14-15 (2)
persecution, 3
Gal_6:11-12 (2), 2Ti_3:12
suffer, 3
Gal_6:11-12 (2), 2Ti_3:12
followed, 2
Rom_9:30-31 (2)
after, 1
Rom_14:19
ensue, 1
1Pe_3:11
given, 1
Rom_12:13
persecuting, 1
Phi_3:6
press, 1
Phi_3:14
Here's what Paul said about his own "διώκω-ing".
Act 22:7 Besides, I fall flat, and I hear a voice saying to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting Me?'"
Act 22:8 Yet I answered and said, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' Besides, He said to me, 'I am Jesus, the Nazarene, Whom you are persecuting.'"
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not competent to be called an apostle, because I persecute the ecclesia of God."
1Co 15:10 Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I - yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me."
Gal 1:13 For you hear of my behavior once, in Judaism, that I inordinately persecuted the ecclesia of God and ravaged it."
Gal 1:14 And I progressed in Judaism above many contemporaries in my race, being inherently exceedingly more zealous for the traditions of my fathers."
Php 3:4 And am I having confidence in flesh, also? If any other one is presuming to have confidence in flesh, I rather:"
Php 3:5 in circumcision the eighth day, of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, in relation to law, a Pharisee,
Php 3:6 in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless."
And a little about his own thoughts about being "διώκω-ed"
Gal 4:28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise."
Gal 4:29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now."
With all of that, I believe I can safely say that some of us HAVE PERSECUTED, and further, probably all of us have BEEN PERSECUTED. We just don't know what it really means, so we don't understand that we have.
Maybe some of that will help.
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Persecute: to pursue in such a way as to injure or afflict : harass; esp : to cause to suffer because of belief. (Merriam-Webster)
1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away
2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
3) in any way whatever to harass, trouble, molest one
3b) to be mistreated, suffer persecution on account of something
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For somebody to persecute someone he must have certain amount of power over him. Now, using power over others, comes in many forms.
Hard power,means to influence the behavior or interests of other political bodies. is often aggressive (coercion)
so this was the kind of power being most used in the apostle's times.
then, there is also this other form of power which is more subtle:
Soft power- ability to attract and co-opt rather than by coercion (hard power), using force or giving money as a means of persuasion. Soft power is the ability to shape the preferences of others through appeal and attraction. A defining feature of soft power is that it is noncoercive.
soft power is more than just persuasion or the ability to move people by argument, though that is an important part of it. It is also the ability to attract, and attraction often leads to acquiescence.
Soft power avoids the need for expensive hard power expenditures.
The main goal of the persecution, is to change something. If we are just like them, then there is no persecution.
So when I find my self in a situation where I am being hurt (or loose money) for doing the right thing--I guess this is my persecution...
when I suffer for having to get away from people that I know that will change me for worst (spiritually) in the long run--I guess this is my persecution...
when I have to deal with so many distractions and problems that can pull me away from my spiritual well being--I guess this is my persecution...
Sometimes I feel like a secret agent in a special mission or as a foreign anywhere I am.
When Paul was persecuted and suffered violence, in times it used to give courage to his brothers to be more bold. Sometimes the use of hard power creates more resistance and the persecuted become more brave.
When we are being persecuted on such a passive way, sometimes it can be even more dangerous. Soft power applied on the right way can change us slowly and silently (we don't even see it) and it's usually even cheaper for the persecutors.
Think about it, If things would become worst and more difficult, why would the persecution would become any lighter?
just an opinion...
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I wasn't talking about our apathy, rather the apathy of those around us.
Babylon the Great, I could see it getting pretty nasty for all professing to be followers of Christ.
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Hellisfake
Perhaps we don't see persecution because those who are living godly lives after Christ are very few. We all would like to think we are living godly but maybe we're just not.
Christ preached peace, love and forgiveness. I can think of a few others who did the same and were murdered for it. John Lennon, MLK Jr. Gandhi, etc.
Putting those three ordinary men in the same category as Jesus? Give me a break. Twilight Zone. Total lack of proper education in today's schools.
Spiritually barfing here.
I can understand Hellisfake's comment, I didn't see that he was holding those people up as comparable to Christ's perfect life. It's jumping to your own conclusion saying he was putting them in the same category as Jesus. Just as Christ lead through example of non-violence and non-retaliation, the Apostles continued to follow His example, not as His equals, but lived as He did in their lives and became martyrs. Certainly Martin Luther King and even thought Gandhi was not a Christian, they were great non-violence and non-retaliation leaders for a just cause and were persecuted and martyrs for that. I think they are good example of modern day martyrs.
It's not over yet! Rev 6:11. In a time when some Christians are dying for their belief and others seem to have it easy, it's still a battle. Satan has his ways to get to us no matter what our circumstances.. If you're experiencing peace then study hard and pray all the time because the Great Tribulation is coming and it's going to be very hard for us all. It could be even harder on us who aren't feeling the persecution at this time, when it hits. God's Grace guide you.
I'm not sure but just plain apathy could be a harder form of persecution than outright physical violence. Think about it.
I wasn't talking about our apathy, rather the apathy of those around us.
Babylon the Great, I could see it getting pretty nasty for all professing to be followers of Christ.
Many people are convinced that the great tribulation that is spoken of constantly in the church is coming... sounds like fear mongering to me. Tribulation and persecution is on God's people during their lives whenever they live, it's not coming only to those few elect that will live at the end of this age. God is preparing the chosen and will give them trials and correction as well, so they will learn what He needs them to, through the experiences they have. Tribulation and affliction is for God's people not the world, and it is provided precisely when and to what degree God determines. The world is in quite enough turmoil now in this age, and there will be God's wrath and indignation upon it in the next age.
This is From LoF series article 16. D4 Hell: 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm --------------------
The phrase "The great tribulation" is used hundreds of thousands of times by the Church, and yet (just as there is no such thing as "THE antichrist") there is no such phrase in the Bible as "The great tribulation." Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation alright, but not just one called "The" tribulation.
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"Immediately after [does everyone understand the difference between 'before' and 'after?'] ...immediately after the tribulation of those days.... He [Jesus] shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet [I Cor. 15:52], and they shall gather together His elect [for the first time, I might also add] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29 & 31).
One other major point: Clearly this verse and others show that Christ returns "after the tribulation of those days." "But in those days, after the tribulation... shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His Elect..." (Mark 13:24 & 27).
And Jesus is said to come in wrath:
"...hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come..." (Rev. 6:16-17)
"And the seventh angel sounded... [the seventh trump is the last trump, I Cor. 15:52] ...and Thy wrath is come..." (Rev. 11:18)
The days of "great tribulation" end at Christ's presence, and the day of "His wrath" begins at His presence. They are two separate and different events, and different judgments on different people for different purposes. If you have not seen or do not understand the absolute differences in Scripture between tribulation and affliction versus wrath and indignation, then be sure to read my ten-page section dealing with it in detail, in my paper "Exposing the Secret Rapture Theory."
Tribulation is almost exclusively administered to God's people. And just to remove any and all doubts concerning this, we will now cite every Scripture on tribulation in the entire Bible:
GOD DOESN'T RAPTURE HIS PEOPLE OUT OF TRIBULATION:
HE PUTS THEM THROUGH TRIBULATION
[Every Bible verse containing the word tribulation]
"When thou [God's people] art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shall be obedient unto his voice" (Deut. 4:30).
"Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you [God's people] in the time of your tribulation" (Judges 10:14).
"And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the Lord, and let him deliver me [God's servant] out of all tribulation" (I Sam. 26:24).
"Yet hath he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he [that one called by God] is offended" (Matt. 13:21)
"For then shall be great tribulation [when] 'they deliver you [God's Elect] up to be afflicted...' Ver. 9], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).
"Immediately after the tribulation [that must be 'endured unto the end' by God's Elect, Ver. 13] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Matt. 24:29).
"But in those days, after that tribulation [same as Matthew's account], the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light" (Mark 13:24).
"These things I have spoken unto you [Christ's disciples], that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we [God's Elect] must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man [first time the world is included with God's people in tribulation] that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Rom. 2:9).
"And not only so, but we [God's Elect] glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience" (Rom. 5:3).
"Who shall separate us [God's Elect] from the love of Christ? Tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" (Rom. 8:35).
"Rejoicing in hope [God's Elect]; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer" (Rom. 12:12).
"Who comforts us in all our [God's Elect] tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God" (II Cor. 1:4).
"Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our [God's Elect] tribulation" (II Cor. 7:4).
"For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we [God's Elect] should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know" (I Thes. 3:4).
"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them [our enemies] that trouble you [God's elect]" (II Thes. 1:6).
"I John, who also am your brother [God's Elect], and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 1:9).
"I know your [God's Church] works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9)
"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you [God's Elect] shall have tribulation ten days: be you faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life" (Rev. 2:10).
"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them [God's Church] that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds" (Rev. 2:22).
"And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they [God's Elect] which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14).
And so the Scriptures prove conclusively that tribulation, first and foremost, is administered to the Church; the House of God; God's Chosen Elect.
And so we are brought into Christ's "judgment" [Gk; 'judging'], high counsel, Gehenna fire, and prison. We are also taken through great tribulation. And along with all these we are to go through a plethora of spiritual transformations.
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TRIBULATION: "...we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Strong's #2347, thlipsis, pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble." Notice the first word of definition: "pressure." Everyone knows that pressure brings about changes. The pressure at the bottom of the sea will flatten a submarine like a pancake. But spiritual pressure (which often involves physical pressure) brings about drastic changes in our character, and produces the spiritual fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control (Gal. 5:12-13).
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Paul did not exaggerate when he declared:
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the Kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
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In II Thes. 1:4-5 Paul again reminds them of this tribulation, but adds an amazing statement to it:
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous JUDGMENT of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer."
Wow, here Paul plainly tells us that "...persecutions and tribulations... IS... the righteous Judgment of God..." Judgments are not always bad things that come upon us for committing sins. Judgment also involves trials, tests, persecution, tribulation, and many such things that sometimes makes life very difficult and uncomfortable, but also qualifies us to "...be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hellisfake
Perhaps we don't see persecution because those who are living godly lives after Christ are very few. We all would like to think we are living godly but maybe we're just not.
Christ preached peace, love and forgiveness. I can think of a few others who did the same and were murdered for it. John Lennon, MLK Jr. Gandhi, etc.
Putting those three ordinary men in the same category as Jesus? Give me a break. Twilight Zone. Total lack of proper education in today's schools.
Spiritually barfing here.
You know a tree by its fruit... Keep hurling insults if you like John but God used this man to spread a message of peace and love.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t_YXSHkAahE
I like the old twilight zone series... The guy at the beginning of each episode who says
"Imagine if you will, a world where..." Where people who spread a message of peace, harmony, and brotherly love, are hated and murdered.. You've now entered.. The Twilight Zone!
;)
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When you truly come out of this world and live your life as an example you will be persecuted. But it takes time to overcome and fully repent (IMO) to be worthy of persecution.
But there is hope.
1Pe_3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe_3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
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ML King was a Baptist minister and serial adulterer. Constantly cheating on his wife. We learn this from the biography by his close associate Ralph Abernathy.
Gandhi had terrible racist things to say about black people when he was in South Africa. Gandhi was a politician whose activities led to the partition of India, which resulted in the deaths of millions of people.
I will not even discuss John Lennon.
Jesus did not come the 1st time to bring peace. Jesus said He brought the sword and divisions. Jesus did not bring peace then nor two thousand years later. He will bring peace in the future after He comes again.
There is great ignorance in all things. Most people form their opinions based upon what is politically correct and the opinions of the Many. Most people do not have the knowledge or courage to stand alone. Why?
"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD God Almighty".
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Well John I was NOT saying King or Gandhi were saints, wasn't even considering either to be chosen, but this thread is about persecution and they were certainly that and martyred for what i consider a just cause.
Now we all know Christ didn't come to bring peace on earth, but He most certainly was a peaceable man and was never given to violence, and taught His followers to be non-violent as well.
Matt 26:51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
v. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
The "sword" that Christ was talking about in Matthew 10 was persecution.
Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
v. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
v. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Luke 12:49 "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
v. 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
v. 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
v. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.
v. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."
Matt 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
v. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
v. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks for setting me straight Kat.
As a matter of fact I have almost read your entire article on the Rapture, very interesting. I even went into my wife after reading about the difference between Tribulation and affliction verses Condemnation and wrath. I told her what you said that wrath and Condemnation is not ever applied to God's Elect but only tribulation and affliction are. It was a point that really stuck out with me.
And now I see that I shouldn't have said it the way I said it concerning Babylon the Great which will receive God's wrath and condemnation, not his elect.
Do you think it could get rough for all professing to be Christians during "Great tribulation" the like of which has never occurred before nor will again?
What did you think of my other thought about apathy from others being an almost worse form of persecution than outright persecution?
Thanks for all you do for the Lord Sister, I'm very appreciative. I don't always read everything you and the others say but I try.
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Well Flanagan, the apathy (lack of interest) of others concerning these truths that we hold dear is obvious. That's because if a person cannot truly understand the spirit of these truths we are learning, it loses it's luster after a while. For now most are not given that special insight into the Spirit of the Word, so it cannot possibly hold the magnitude of meaning for the many as it does for the few chosen, "because 'they look but don't see, and they listen but don't hear or understand" (Mat 13:13). The church does not know Christ, they are just playing the religion game, thinking they are spiritual. So it's easy to see how many have apathy, but that should not effect us, since we understand it's not their time yet, it's just not up to the individual when their eyes are opened.
The way I see it, everybody that is chosen all down through the centuries have had it rough with some form of persecution. I really can't go along with the end time tribulation build up stuff, Christ said His return will be as the flood came upon Adam's descendants, suddenly without warning.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
v. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
v. 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 24 is Jesus's response to 2 questions "(1)when will these things be? (the destruction of the Temple) And (2)what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" So He gave them the answer to the first question down through verse 26 and that includes verse 22 "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved." Christ was warning the believers that would be living around Jerusalem at that time, v. 22 "for the elect's sake." The destruction of the Temple was a monumental event that represented the final removal of all that pertained to the old covenant, v. 21 "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Jesus begins to tell about His return in verse 27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." The return of the Lord is at hand 'now,' whenever an elect was living all down through the centuries, so we must endure to 'our' end.
James 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.
v. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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When you truly come out of this world and live your life as an example you will be persecuted. But it takes time to overcome and fully repent (IMO) to be worthy of persecution.
But there is hope.
1Pe_3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe_3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
That's pretty near the bottom line for me.
Things have been "worse". Things may get "worse" again. They are "worse" for some than for others. Some of those "others" are here among us. These "things" are in the hands of God, and so are we. Does anyone really think the aim of living is to get persecuted as much as possible? If so, then he'll find a way. And if it doesn't happen like he thinks it ought, then he can join the mind-set of this current "generation" and take every slight as "persecution".
Mat 11:16-19 But what comparison may I make of this generation? It is like children seated in the market-places, crying out to one another, "We made music for you and you did not take part in the dance; we gave cries of sorrow and you made no signs of grief."
For John came, taking no food or drink, and they say, "He has an evil spirit". The Son of man has come feasting, and they say, "See, a lover of food and wine, a friend of tax-farmers and sinners!" And wisdom is judged to be right by her works.
Could be that TOO is "persecution".
Jesus told the disciples not to be surprised. Seems to me, Paul is saying the same thing. What little I've experienced has come up on me suddenly, and from unexpected quarters.
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Thanks Sister Kat, I see what you mean and appreciate your time and efforts to explain to so many your insight into God's word. Along with all who take the lead in explaining to others and organizing this forum for everyone's benefit. You're all deserving of double honor. :) 1Tim 5:17
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When you truly come out of this world and live your life as an example you will be persecuted. But it takes time to overcome and fully repent (IMO) to be worthy of persecution.
But there is hope.
1Pe_3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe_3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Thanks dave, that helpt me :)
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ML King was a Baptist minister and serial adulterer. Constantly cheating on his wife. We learn this from the biography by his close associate Ralph Abernathy.
Gandhi had terrible racist things to say about black people when he was in South Africa. Gandhi was a politician whose activities led to the partition of India, which resulted in the deaths of millions of people.
I will not even discuss John Lennon.
As far as what one man (Ralph Abernathy) said about another man (sounds like gossip) I do not know. Nor will I bear false witness toward a man I never saw... But even if it's true, God can speak truth through the mouth of a donkey. Surely He can speak through a cheating baptist minister.
Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.
I'm not saying MLK, Gandhi, John Lennon were prophets or even Gods chosen.. But maybe they were. What do I know and who am I to argue with God.. I'm just a man. It's not my business what God has planned for another man anyhow.... If in that day, I see John Lennon, Gandhi, MLK, enter into the Kingdom before me, who am I to tell God He got it wrong? Perhaps many would weep and gnash their teeth to see a pot smoking hippy enter before them self.
All I'm saying is that in this world the use of violence is esteemed. Those who wield the sword are considered heroes and our protectors. While those who denounce violence and hatred are themselves hated and sometimes violently persecuted.
Christ is the Prince of Peace. God is Love. Both peace and love are hated and crucified by this world. Until He comes and teaches the world righteousness.
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Largeli, your response bothers me.
It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."
Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?
Hm. What strange dicsussion.
Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.
There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.
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All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
William Shakespeare, 1564 - 1616.
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We really are blessed to have this place where we can find people of like mind to fellowship with, from almost any where in the world. It's always good to remember that Christ is here with us.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.
These discussions are for us to weigh one another opinions and hopefully come to a better understanding of these things... and offering Scripture to show why you hold a certain opinion is always beneficial. But there is never a good reason to disparage one another here... some of us have been studying these things longer than others, but that does not always take us to maturity. We can disagree in our opinions, but remember as we learn and grow our opinions change, so why would any condescend to another as we all are still learning?
I don't see any need to judge those in the world, especially if not even a Christian... but doing good is always of benefit, "if anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward" (1 Cor 3:14), and their time will come. But we should look to those we 'know' are God's chosen as our example, the Apostles. Let us keep our eyes on Christ and the Words He gave us and inspired the Apostles to write and be preserved for us. And we even have a modern day example in Ray as well. Yes we're very blessed and fortunate indeed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?
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Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?
Yes, i cant se no other reson
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Largeli, your response bothers me.
It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."
Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?
Hm. What strange dicsussion.
Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.
There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.
My response doesn't bother you... what you made of my response bothers you because I didn't say any of this stuff.
My statement you're responding to was...
Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.
Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.
I never said Gandhi was racist. You did. I never said Jesus was racist.
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Largeli, your response bothers me.
It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."
Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?
Hm. What strange dicsussion.
Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.
There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.
My response doesn't bother you... what you made of my response bothers you because I didn't say any of this stuff.
My statement you're responding to was...
Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.
Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.
I never said Gandhi was racist. You did. I never said Jesus was racist.
Well Largeli, I certainly don't want to get into a big argument of what you thought or were trying to say. Kat is right with her post and we should not pursue this any further as I think it will be of little benefit.
In my defense of having assumed incorrectly, which you state I did, I will say that your lack of rejecting the notion that Ghandi was racist followed by what appeared to be a justification of racist behavior with a comment of our Lord made it very easy to miss understand you. But that too may be my fault for having attempted to understand more than what was essentially an ambiguous post.
For your question. Did Jesus call the woman a dog or was He stating a spiritual truth that what is holy should not be given to the dogs and swines lest they turn and rend you for it? I don't see Him necessarily saying she is a dog as she clearly proves shes not because Jesus shortly thereafter marvels at her tremendous faith and proclaims her daughter healed. The dogs do not possess such faith or they would be no dogs.
I think He provoked her because He knew how she would respond and thus revealing her tremendous faith in Him resulting in the healing of her daughter which was God's plan all along.
It reminds me of Exodus 32 where God tells Moses He's going to destroy Isreal so that Moses is provoked into prayer so that God doesn't destroy israel and 'changes His mind.' God's plan the whole time was not to destroy isreal but He planned for that to happen through Moses' intercession.
Similarly Jesus' knowing all mankind would certainly give Him the understanding that this woman is no dog but her faith is what was necessary for the healing of her daughter and so Jesus provoked that out of her.
That's what I see. I don't see Him calling her a dog.
Kindly,
Alex
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Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?
Doug, what I'd hoped to show in an earlier post is that persecute is a word, and not a "bible word". It's a word, and not a "topic". So short answer: No. To persecute or to be persecuted is "to pursue" with or without ill-will or intent to harm/harass. It's ALWAYS the reason BEHIND/FOR the "persecution" that matters. As Dennis posted above:
1Pe_3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe_3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
I've said numerous times when this "topic" appears: Any fool behaving badly can get himself "persecuted" if that's what he wants. Fools behaving badly are decidedly NOT "living Godly in Christ Jesus" no matter what they say with their mouths or think in their minds. "Persecution" is a result, not a "proof".
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the reply, it certainly helped in my understanding.
For years at work a rather large man (6'6", about 280 pounds) did numerous things to harass me for no reason. Many were physical hurtful including picking me up and turning me upside down, tripping me on concrete floors, shaking me after having a broken elbow knowing that the doctor said to keep it still. One time he tried to hit me with a forklift, however I had moved out the way in plenty of time and just watched (God certainly directed me). These were not all, however I never reported since he would have been fired. I would try and avoid him but he would move towards me which ever direction I would go in the plant. My job wsa such that I had to interact with him many times a week. This went on for years, however now it has stopped and I actually feel comfortable around him. God was certainly teaching me many things including to trust in Him to resolve.
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Doug -
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the reply, it certainly helped in my understanding.
For years at work a rather large man (6'6", about 280 pounds) did numerous things to harass me for no reason. Many were physical hurtful including picking me up and turning me upside down, tripping me on concrete floors, shaking me after having a broken elbow knowing that the doctor said to keep it still. One time he tried to hit me with a forklift, however I had moved out the way in plenty of time and just watched (God certainly directed me). These were not all, however I never reported since he would have been fired. I would try and avoid him but he would move towards me which ever direction I would go in the plant. My job wsa such that I had to interact with him many times a week. This went on for years, however now it has stopped and I actually feel comfortable around him. God was certainly teaching me many things including to trust in Him to resolve.
I am pleased that you are no longer being persecuted by this work colleague.
In my experience, bullies tend to be cowards - and they usually cannot take what they themselves give out.
Kind Regards.
George
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My statement you're responding to was...
Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.
Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.
Matt 15:22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed."
v. 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
v. 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
v. 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
v. 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."
Isn't that curious to wonder why Jesus would make such a comment using the derogatory word 'dog.' Of course Christ was well aware of all the circumstances here, and with this woman in particular, a Gentile. I certainly believe this was to become a learning lesson... maybe it was time the disciples needed to began to comprehend that Gentiles are not the lowly beings all Jews had always considered them to be.
So Jesus hearing her plea for help, ignored her at first, and her. a Gentile, being there speaking to Him raised the disciples contempt for her and they began to tell Him "send her away." But then Jesus asked her a question and I do believe He knew exactly how this exchange would go. The word 'dog' was no doubt part of the lesson, because we certainly know that He would never use it as a put down, but maybe it was more in the form of a question to bring attention to it, as surely He had heard His disciples use it many times. So He told her that His mission at that time was to the house of Israel, the Jews, God's chosen people... she was not chosen, but they were considered no more then lowly Gentiles dogs, with no chance for salvation.
As the disciples listened on, she answered that she was not seeking the Jews portions, just a few leftover crumbs of mercy... she evidently believed Jesus was God and had faith that He could grant her request and she would not just give up easily. I'm sure Christ knew this about her and certainly He did honor her request as He already knew He would and to top it off He even acknowledged and commended her "great faith." I suppose the disciples were probably a little shocked by the the way this turned out.
Matt 15:27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
v. 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
I believe the disciples learned that Christ did not despise the Gentiles, that word 'dog' was used to show them how ugly their contempt was, because He did show mercy/love for her and healed her daughter. So that had to put a big question in their minds about how they looked down their noses at these people. Because we know that the Gentiles and all people were destined to be eventually chosen... Christ knew it was something the disciples needed time to wrap their minds around after centuries of scorn for these people.
Just my take on this interesting comment from Christ.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
William Shakespeare, 1564 - 1616.
We would all do well to reflect on this every day.