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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: fe32k on November 04, 2007, 06:07:04 AM
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Can anyone shed some light on this:
1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I know Ray is busy with the conference, so I figured I shouldn't bother him with it. But what does this mean? I have looked at different translations and have nothing. How can childbearing save a woman? Thanks in advance.
GBWY,
Roy
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Childbearing does not save a woman, Yet all will be saved.
For there is but one name under heaven from which men can be saved it is Christ.
Yes all "shall be" saved.
But how?
Through the name of Jesus Christ,
How is this accomplished?
Judgment! And who judges?
don't you know the Saints shall judge the world? [1Cor 6:2]
And just where do these Saints come from?
Through childbearing......But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, [Gal 1:15]
Chris R
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Hello Roy
Firstly I would like to suggest to you that you make a study of http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm Twelve God-given Truths to understand His Word.
For me, the word “saved” in this verse does not mean what Babylon preaches and believes that some will be “saved” and others will not be “saved.” As noted by Chris R one can not be "saved" by giving literal physical birth to a child.
Also, the Scriptures are not literal but Spiritual.
The spiritual admonitions to women from the verse you are studying were that they continue in faith, love, holiness and sobriety in order to not die in giving birth. This holds true for spiritual maturity to salvation which as Chris R notes is through Jesus Christ.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Well consider the fact that we are being concieved by God right now, and that when we are birthed, or BORN AGAIN into the KINGDOM we are SAVED.
Here is another interesting scrpture to consider;
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
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Hi Roy,
Here's a little bit of a different perspective.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
saved in Strong's - to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively)
I am looking at this in a physical sense. The women was created second, she was decieved, it says she is the weaker vessel (1 Peter 3:7). All these things seem to make the woman lesser than a man. But she was given the grand purpose of being the one to which all of mankind is brought into the world. This in and of itself gives the woman a awesome purpose that nobody can deny. But then again this is not enought by itself, if the woman has a terrible character. So this gives her worth, but it is up to her to add the good character (faith and charity and holiness with sobriety) to gain respect from people.
that's just what I am thinking :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Everyone,
I am aware and believe all the teachings in Bible-truths. But as Ray says, when the scriptures speak of being saved, it can sometimes be referring to the elect. Sure the scriptures are spiritual, but I think Kat makes a good point as well as Chris. I am going to ponder on this a little longer. My wife and I had a debate regarding this scripture and I want to make sure I give her a scriptural answer. She sees it as just another example of how the Bible demeans women. I need to show her this is not the case.
Thanks Again,
Roy
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But as Ray says, when the scriptures speak of being saved, it can sometimes be referring to the elect. Sure the scriptures are spiritual, but I think Kat makes a good point as well as Chris. I am going to ponder on this a little longer.
Hi Roy,
There is no doubt in my mind that the scriptures have many layers of truth contained within them, remember "first the physical then the spiritual" I can see what everyone else has written here has merit, my own take on this in regard to your question goes back to Romans 8:19-23;
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (The birthing of the Body of Christ?)
We know the church is weak, we know it is deceived but we must also consider how the church has kept the Word intact through the ages, the Temple and Synagogues preserved for us the Old Testatment and the Christian Church has preserved the Bible through the ages, providing the elect in each generation the opportunity to meditate on His Truth.
Of course it was God who directed these things but these institutions are and were the vessels He used in accomplishing this, just as God could have just as easily created each and every person who ever lived just as He created Adam, He chose to use Eve and the women of every generation to create and multiply to suit His purpose.
The chosen come out of the church and will eventually work with the Lord in bringing all men to the Father, they will have a part to play in the salvation of those still in Babylon and beyond. Remember the woman is also symbolic of the church, the virtuous woman for His church and the harlot for the worldly church, both will be brought to perfection through the pain of trial, tribulation and judgment.
This is my take on this topic and of course I am open to any comments or correction if need be.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Here's a thought: Prior to children, God wouldn't be called the "Father," He would only be God. And salvation came through the "Son" therefore salvation was/is only possible because of the role the mother played (Who would need salvation if there were only God?). Quite the honour in fact, not demeaning. In the natural, the mother is not called a mother either, until children are involved. So both the "parents" are necessary in order for there to be offspring. In the spiritual, as Joe just said, this too involves being "brought to perfection through the pain of trial, tribulation and judgment." Childbirth is a type or shadow of the spiritual birthing of the children of God. Following is a verse spoken by Paul: Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,...
Should men take offense to his statement? Should women take offense to the verse in Timothy? I think only if their spirit is looking for a reason to take offense. The division of labor is clearly seen in Genesis where God tells Adam his labor will be to till the ground and Eve's labor will be through childbirth. Both forms of labor are types and both are equally important to starting and maintaining a "family" - both in the natural and spiritual. What strikes me as important is the words "shall be saved...if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" This applies to men and women alike. We must continue and not give up in pressing towards the prize of the high calling - not yet attained, but it is to come. In the natural, men with carnal thinking have used the verse in Timothy to put a yoke of burden on women, just as they misinterpret many other scriptures. Pray for understanding, for eyes to be opened.
G.
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Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
"joints and marrow" - the natural, carnal thinkers included
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
Paul said I want your women to be silent and your husbands to teach but this is not so much about real physical women but has a deeper spiritual application. I see the woman as being symbolic of our minds within the “church”. The church is the “temple” which is us...our bodies. The woman is the mind speaking and talking in this body.
God doesn't want “her” speaking but the husband...the Christ IN YOU, that the works produced will not be laden with fear, gossip and unbelief. God is interested in birthing forth the child of righteousness through the woman ( your mind).
But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
1 Timothy 2:15
For it is by this woman ( the mind) birthing the Christ (manifesting his nature to the world) that she (all) shall be saved. The child that we bear in the world is the Christ nature coming through this woman bearing forth His nature and likeness into the world. The Christ nature is what "preserves" the woman (us).
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
So when Paul says, woman be silent in the church, he's speaking of flesh and carnality speaking through our mind in this body. God is going to silence that:
Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.
Zechariah 2:13
Through the woman (your mind) the husband (Christ in you) will manifest Himself and speak for you if you will submit.
Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? It is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ, and all for your upbuilding, beloved.
2 Corinthians 12:19
The same reason goes for woman not teaching...God doesn't want the “woman” in you to teach what she thinks the Word is saying. The fact is the Husband (Christ) is the only one who can teach God's word. The inner fountain (spirit of God) that springs up through the mind and causes you to understand the truth. God giving eyesight.
Christ is coming together with his church, the woman (your mind) is being married to the man (the mind of Christ) and the two are becoming one. And the world is waiting for the offsprings of love.
For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation (the birth) of the sons of God.
Romans 8:19
For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16
For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One...
Hebrews 2:11
Peace,
Diana
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Hi Diana,
I like the spiritual application you made here in regard to speaking/teaching, a very good observation and point.
Can anyone shed some light on this:
1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Hi Roy,
Once again I may have been too long winded in my original post.
Simply stated the salvation of all (the Fall Harvest) will be expedited by the elect in Christ (who are all born of women) who endure to the end.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
You see she shall not be saved by the act of giving birth but by the result of it, children who are chosen by God to be with Christ in bringing salvation to all mankind.
Peace,
Joe
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DIANA,
amen amen
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Hi,
Joe that is a very interesting way to see this. It didn't make sense because sometimes I still think in terms of this life only and not in the plan of the ages. My thoughts are still expanding when it comes to some scripture.
As far as Diana's view goes, I think God's word has more depth than can be figured out and hers is also an interesting observation that may have legitimacy. On the other hand, I think that here Paul was speaking plainly and was not trying to make a symbolic parable. It does not have any characteristics that would infer as such. What do you think?
Thanks everyone...
GBWY,
Roy
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Hello Fe32k
You observe :... Paul was speaking plainly and was not trying to make a symbolic parable. It does not have any characteristics that would infer as such.
This is a common acceptance regarding the Bible in most Churches. If you have not already read the following http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html Lazarus and the Rich Man, you might begin to see this and if you have already read that link, there are other teachings that can give you pointers to seeing that the Scriptures are not literal. It is important that you find these treasures. The Bible is a Parable. The words Jesus Christ spoke are Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus Christ inspired the scriptures which too are Spirit and Truth not spoken literally or of any interpretation to themselves.
These truths are just some of the treasures available in the teachings we have through Ray. If you need more tools to see this you can also study http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Roy,
I think one of the most incedible truths I have learned from the articles on Bible Truths is how we should read, study and perceive scripture keeping in mind "first the physical, then the spiritual."
This has greatly helped me in learning to discern some of the Truths contained within His Word, there are often many layers of Truth and Wisdom there to be discovered.
Arcturus provided some excellent examples and here is a bit more;
FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL
"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:46).
Now then, was that bread that the fathers ate in the desert the "TRUE bread from heaven?" No, it clearly was not, Jesus said it was not! And so, can we not see, can we not believe, can we not understand, that Jesus Christ IS
"…the TRUE bread from heaven. For the bread of God IS HE which comes down FROM HEAVEN and gives life unto the world" (John 6:32b-33).
Hold this thought ……
And now back to Malachi again:
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be meat [bread] in Mine house, and prove me now herewith, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it" (Malachi, 3:10).
This is vital to understand: God does not berate the people or the priests for the lack of quantity in their tithes and offerings and sacrifices, but rather a lack of quality. Here is absolute Scriptural proof of what I say. They brought offerings, but why would God not accept their offerings? Because they offered "blind, lame and sick sacrifices." And why did they do that? Because they themselves were spiritually blind, lame and sick. There was quantity to their offerings, but not quality.
"And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? Offer it now unto your governor; will he be pleased with you, or accept your person? Says the Lord of hosts" (Mal. 1:8).
Read the entire article here;
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Peace,
Joe
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As far as Diana's view goes, I think God's word has more depth than can be figured out and hers is also an interesting observation that may have legitimacy. On the other hand, I think that here Paul was speaking plainly and was not trying to make a symbolic parable. It does not have any characteristics that would infer as such. What do you think?
Hi Roy, well certainly you can take what Paul is saying as "plainly" or literally, but then that is all you will get out of it as well. Only the spirit of God can open your eyes and confirm these things for you.
But here's a question for you, if we insist on taking this literally only and not allow a spiritual interpretation than what are we left with? We are left with an instruction from Paul that physical women are physically to keep silent in the church.
Is this forum not a church (an assembly of like-minded believers)? And if you go to a church do the women there speak? Here's the problem, if we are to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" and if we are to take this instruction by Paul literally than neither I or any of the other fine ladies on this forum should be sharing our learnings with you....we should keep silent.
And you are left with the literal interpretation that a woman "shall be physically saved in physically childbearing" provided of course she continues in faith, love, holiness (none of which she can accomplish without Christ...without me you can do nothing...)
If you find it difficult to see yourself in the woman's role in terms of your relationship with Christ, than you won't seek after being His bride.
You run into all sorts of problems when you walk down this road of taking things literally. This model of the husband/man and his wife/woman is a deep mystery and stretches far past the physical world around us.
The scriptures are inspired by the spirit of Christ. We can be sure Paul is speaking the words of Christ. And if we can be sure of that, than we can be sure it is in parable form.
And with many such parables He was speaking the word to them as they were able to hear it; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
Mark 4:33-34
May God bless you in your studies,
Peace,
Diana
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To add to what Joe and diana have both said -
Dear roy, consider as ray has said;
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words [what wholesome words? Whose wholesome words?], even THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST…" (I Tim. 6:3).
"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God… "(II Tim. 3:16)
The words of Paul that have become Scripture were inspired of God, and they were the same words as "…THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST…"
and we know that Christ words are;
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Joe/Arcturus,
I am aware of these teachings and have been a reader of this site for over a year (just not very active on the forum). Ray's teaching of first physical then spiritual (Ph/Sp) is a great revelation and I have applied it many times in my studies. My issue with the verse in question is not this concept of Ph/Sp as I do believe it, but that I highly doubt that Paul was speaking in a parable to Timothy, a very young pastor. His intentions was to teach him and prepare him, so why would Paul not speak plainly? The example that arcturus gave me was from Jesus whom we all know ONLY spoke in parables to the multitudes. Paul on the other hand speaks plainly and with a clearly stated command in most of his writings, with maybe some exceptions. So if he said it with one intention, but then other deeper meanings can be derived from it, does that mean that we void his original intention and just apply the deeper meaning? I hope that question came out clear. I do not want this topic to take a bad turn, so maybe I will look into it more and pray for an answer. Although, I am just a lurker on this forum mostly, I have come to really appreciate many of you and I hope I have shown that I clearly ask sincerely and am not trying to be divisive.
God be with you,
Roy
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Hi Diana,
I didnt see your post until now. Forgot to click on page 2 :P
I agree with you Diana. There is deeper, spiritual meaning in what Paul said, but was that his intention? That is what concerns me. It might have well been the intention of God's spirit to place this in scripture as a symbol of some sort, as a parable. But it is just beyond me why Paul would write an epistle that is seemingly instructive in nature to Timothy so that he may decipher some parables contained therein. This changes my question to what I said in the post before this one... Do we void what was intended in this writing? I know this is a difficult subject, but I hope you can understand my concern, exspecially coming from a married man. It must be admitted that Paul might have actually meant and taught exactly what he said without symbolic meaning.
GBWY,
Roy
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Hi Roy, I do see what you are saying. What do we do with Paul's "plain statements"? Well, here's how I look at. Applying "first physical, then spiritual" we could approach it in the same way Jesus approached the law. As someone matures in Christ and understands and applies the spiritual meaning inwardly, than the outward application is irrelevant.
For example, we no longer keep a physical Sabbath day because we apply the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath rest and rest carnally from our works inwardly in Jesus Christ, who is our Sabbath. But for a time, while a babe in Christ, many feel the need to adhere to an actual physical day. Is that wrong? No. Is it necessary once you have matured? No. Your growth in the spiritual determines what you do physically.
So, if a person feels the need to apply the physical application than they surely should do that until God convicts them of the spiritual, in which case, they will no longer need the "schoolmaster" because they have graduated (so to speak). And hopefully they will not go backwards to the elementary principles of the world (the physical stuff).
I highly doubt that Paul was speaking in a parable to Timothy, a very young pastor. His intentions was to teach him and prepare him, so why would Paul not speak plainly?
So yes, perhaps there is a place and time at the beginning of one's walk that they could take this and apply it physically. Babes in Christ start in the physical...but all physical things point to a deeper spiritual application. Once God has given you the ability to grasp the spiritual meaning you don't need the type/pattern to help you understand. Once you know and understand how 4 +3 = 7 you don't need the abacus anymore to help you count in out.
Now, if all churches adhered to this instruction and women did not speak, would we have more enlightened churches? Highly unlikely. We know that there were many Jews including Paul "blameless" as to the Law, who faithfully performed all physical requirements and still did not have a clue as to what these physical requirements actually pointed to. So again, the "doing" of the physical is really irrelevant, it is the "understanding" of what the physical means (which comes from God) that is the only thing that matters. I don't have to have ever kept a Sabbath day to the "Tee" according to the Law, to now understand what it means. I can read about it in God's word and take it's instruction spiritually. If God has given someone that ability to SEE than you don't NEED the physical, since the physical only pointed to the understanding you already have. Am I making sense?
Do we void what was intended in this writing?
No, I don't think we void it anymore than we void the Law, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Do we void the Sabbath? No, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Do we void "do not murder"? No, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus who alone gives us the ability to adhere to an even higher standard and not hate our brothers. If we have come to that place where we are no longer under the law, but under grace within ourselves, than it no longer matters who is silent or not outside of ourselves.
We both know, there is no ideal church that exists today...God's true church is scattered. How then, are we assured that the men in our churches are indeed mature in Christ, able to lead the women? There are women, afterall, that are leaps and bounds ahead of their husbands, spiritually speaking. My husband doesn't even know what he believes! My true husband is Jesus Christ and He alone leads me. I don't need to be silent, here or anywhere else, as long as I am silent in the Lord. At least, that is my desire.
All this makes sense in my own head but I may have not articulated it right. I hope, at the very least, it has given you something to think about.
I will be silent now... ;D ;) (just kidding...)
Peace to you,
Diana
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Diana, that was a wonderful post! It was a blessing!
Love to you,
Alex
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Yes, Diana, well put.
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Now you all understand what I was saying earlier. Thank you Diane for sharing this beautiful truth again ;D peggy
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Ray Replies to this question,
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST." (Gal. 2:27-28). But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female. If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine. Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God" (I Cor. 11:3). This statement is not "custom and tradition.
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
Also understand that women are not some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam" and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?" "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:18).
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
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Why are women then teaching on this forum? ??? Especially here on General Discussions, which would be the forum's formal meeting.
Ladies! We need to keep silence. (oops...I think I just taught then)
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Why are women then teaching on this forum? ??? Especially here on General Discussions, which would be the forum's formal meeting.
Ladies! We need to keep silence. (oops...I think I just taught then)
I would contend dear sister, that indeed what ray has said is true as well as what diana has spoken.
I think i would have to add that while we are still in the flesh, here on this forum, we are indeed connected through the spirit of His Son. So perhaps, we are not in the flesh here, but in spirit together as we should always be =]
Just maybe?
God bless,
Alex
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Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and ask these annoying tid bits about the word that I just cannot put to rest (I'd ask Paul though, cause Jesus would probably tell me a parable :P).
When I was still attending church I had a female pastor and I asked her about this. The best she could do was say it was intended for those times only. These of course are much better answers and make sense. Rays answer, however is what I expected and the answer that my wife hates. Not sure how to go from here, but hopefully God will be guiding me to tell her His intended truth. Although the original question was on childbearing, I think Joe gave a pretty good answer to that at first.
I guess this also begs the questions, what constitutes as teaching? I don't think this forum is a place where people come to teach. Those are not my intentions at least. So in a way, we have all been keeping silent, because how many here have even ever taught something that is outside of what Ray has already stated? Not many I presume but I could be wrong.
GBWYA,
Roy
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Some points to consider on this subject.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2206.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2144.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,969.0.html
Try to be the hero and leave that to the man to me is wisdom. It requires more strenght to submit than to disobey but who wants to know that?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Thanks Arcturus,
That second email strengthens my point about this forum not being a medium for teaching.
Roy
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From the forum rules:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
Ray is the only teacher and since he doesn't visit the forum I would say we are teacher free.
The rest of the forum rules explain our purpose quite well.
:)
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Can anyone shed some light on this:
1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
I know Ray is busy with the conference, so I figured I shouldn't bother him with it. But what does this mean? I have looked at different translations and have nothing. How can childbearing save a woman? Thanks in advance.
GBWY,
Roy
I'm sorry, but people seem to stray away from what was asked, apparently. Let's show you some scripture that I think might get you to make a connection. I'm also going to re post the scripture you referred to:
1 Timothy 2:15
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Revelation 12:1-2
1)And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2)And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Matthew 24:7-8 (English Standard Version)
7)For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 )All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
John 3:2-7
2)The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3)Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4)Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5)Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6)That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7)Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Galatians 4:27
27)For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Revelation 18:4
4)And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Genesis 3:16
16)Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Hope this helps.
your friend,
-Beau
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There is a historical context,or backdrop that surrounds this particular verse.Ist Timothy 1vs 3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia,stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines,any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.These provoke controversy rather than God's work which is by faith.
I want to tread lightly here as not to appear to teach anything,just trying to answer the question.Gnosticism was a heresy that was creeping it's way into the church.They taught that full salvation came through special knowledge.The main religion in Ephesus was a Female led cult of Artemis.
There were some that taught Eve was regarded as both mediator and redemptive figure.They taught that she predated Adam,and that man came into existence by and through the woman.Since Eve bit from the tree first,that she was the bearer of special knowledge.They further taught that redemption reversed the effects of there disobedience that God instituted in Genesis.
Some even preferred the leadership of woman over men based on these teachings.Paul readdresses,just what took place in the garden,making it clear that Adam was first formed then Eve.That Eve was deceived but as God had promised in the book of Genesis that her seed would bruise the head of the serpent.
So Eve was,and would be saved through the birthing of Jesus,but not by the birthing alone,rather that she continue in faith,and love and holiness with sobriety.
I tried to get to the point as fast as possible and would be happy to discuss further through pm, if it is a more appropriate means of discussing this verse further.
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Hi sonofone,
That was interesting and it made sense.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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We are still mulling over this subject. What good is it doing? We all have our own opinion and in this country, with the back ground of our forefathers and mothers sacrificing and fighting hard for the right to have and speak that opinion we seem to hold this dear to us. When each of us leave our computers and join our spouses what happens then? As a fellow believer I would like to think we each respect our love ones and do the very best we can, with the love of God motivating our actions. Life gets hard decisions can be hard having another to talk with and share all the ups and downs is a blessing. Since I have been a small child old people have fascinated me. I love to talk with them and hear their stories. I love to watch them and as I have observe old couples one of the beauties I 've seen is the flow between them, almost without words, in dealing with life's problems. I pray that all the couples represented here will be bless in their old ages with a gentle flowing relationship work out from respect and God's love. Peggy
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Roy, Thank you for bringing this verse forward. I don't know about anyone else but the verses about a woman's role have always been somewhat of a mystery to me ???, one I didn't want to look at too closely! But this thread and others I've read recently have very much helped my understanding. Personally, I'd like to thank all of you for your excellent comments and verses cited. And Sonofone, your explaination of the historical context really brought Paul's meaning into focus. Thank you.
your sister in Christ,
Cindy :)
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Sonofone,
I will research this. Sounds very interesting. I have never heard of this sect of Christianity existing in the early church. They must have been making quite an impression if Paul decided to address their heresy. Thanks again bro, I will PM you if I find something interesting in my research.
GBWY,
Roy
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Hi Arcturus, Re:
Try to be the hero and leave that to the man to me is wisdom.
I thought you would like this verse:
1Cor 1:30 Yet you, of Him, are in Christ Jesus, Who became to us wisdom from God, besides righteousness and holiness and deliverance,
:)
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Yes Janice. Thank you.
Our source of spiritual strength is Jesus Christ. He is Wisdom among many other Divine and Glorious characteristics that are Godly.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)