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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Nelson Boils on November 22, 2015, 08:32:44 AM
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"Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I know people who would teach that to the hilt. That [kind of] person would never think to have a gun, that if an enemy approached he would shoot them…NEVER. But he does have a mean Rottweiler.
So - is there any difference? You’ve got a gun…I’ve got a Rottweiler. That’s fooling yourself, not fooling God. Talk about a converted heart…the carnal mind will devise ways to pretend it’s keeping the “higher commandments” - it’s NOT. People come up with trickery, tomfoolery, as they say." - L.Ray Smith
Or someone has a security company guarding his house, so that should the enemy try to steal from him,the security guys can come and shoot the enemy for him - basically,the security company will do the deed for him.
"So - is there any difference? You've got a gun...I've got a Rottweiler" and he's got a security company guarding his home or business?
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Question;
Suppose when Ray was still alive that he and Manuella were sitting at a table in a restaurant quietly eating their dinner and minding their own business. In walks a drunk looking for a fight. Ray tries to ignore him and then the guy starts to push Manuella around and strike at her. Do we think that Ray would just sit there and not defend his wife because after all he has to 'love his enemy'.
We can get stupid about these things and religion sometimes gets stupid. We know that God loves us and yet, sometimes he becomes harsh [our perception] with us....does he not? Does that mean he no longer loves us? And also look at how God deals with the wicked. He even kills the wicked man and yet without sin. And yet he loves the wicked man as we know he sees him as he shall be someday and not as he currently is.
We are not God of course and neither is it our task to judge the wicked in this lifetime. We are to live at peace with all men as much as we are able. I want to get out of this life with never having to take another life or hurt anyone else and I pray that God never puts me in that position where I would do so. Up until now I've never had to do that. I served in the military for many years and was ready to take a life and yet God was merciful to me and I never did so even though at the time I would of thought I was justified because I was serving my country.
I don't have a Rottweiler but if I was married, had small children and happened to have one as a pet and if that pet dissuaded someone from breaking into my home or harming my children I wouldn't think it to be a bad thing. This is a wicked and violent world that we have to live in. It is my goal to get out of this life in a way that honors God in what I do. I just pray I'm never put into a situation where I would do something that would dishonor my calling and so far that has been the case.
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Hi Nelson, we certainly live in a hostile world, we know full well there is crime and corruption everywhere. We work to make ourselves's a comfortable home and we certainly don't want anybody to break in a steal our stuff, much less do harm to our family. Even when we are out somebody could rob us and take our money. How do we defend ourselves? Should we arm ourselves so we can protect what is ours? Is it alright in the eyes of God to kill a thief/enemy in order to protect yourself, family and home? I think it is about attitude... do we plan how we should protect what is ours, buy a gun, just in case? Is there certain circumstances that would allow yo to kill somebody that threatened you?
Well the answer is in the Scripture you gave as to what Christ said about this - "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"? Is there any room in there to kill somebody under any circumstances? Well what about defending yourself, is that wrong?
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
I simply see no where in Scripture that allows for a believer to be violent. Isn't God with us (in us) at all times, so that He is fully aware of our circumstance and nothing can happen to us without His knowledge? We must trust and believe God can and will deliver us according to His will and there is no situation beyond His control.
Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, A stronghold in the day of trouble; And He knows those who trust in Him.
2Kings 17:39 But the LORD your God you shall fear; and He will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies."
There are some dramatic cases in Scripture where God intervened to protect His people that serve and obey Him.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
v. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and spoke, saying, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here." Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire.
v. 27 And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king's counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them.
Dan 6:16 So the king gave the command, and they brought Daniel and cast him into the den of lions. But the king spoke, saying to Daniel, "Your God, whom you serve continually, He will deliver you."
v. 19 Then the king arose very early in the morning and went in haste to the den of lions.
v. 21 Then Daniel said to the king, "O king, live forever!
v. 22 My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you."
Yes God is all powerful and He uses His great host of angelic servants that are His great warriors, and there is even a Scripture where Christ seems to say there are angels specifically used to watch over the elect.
Mat 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
And also this Scripture that shows there are always things going on in the heavens that we are just not aware of.
2Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
v. 16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
v. 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
So we should never be concerned for our safety, sometimes we may even have a trial to show us our true heart/attitude, because God already knows it. But be assured our great God is very capable of protecting us.
Psa 91:1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
v. 2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."
v. 3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
v. 4 He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
v. 5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
v. 6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Here is a similar thread, of sorts, on killing, violence, defending ourselves, serving in the military etc...
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15890.0.html
A very relavent verse:
Isaiah 51:7 "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." 12-13, "I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?"
We are His people whose hearts have written upon them the law of God.
Remember, Love does no harm, so anything that does harm is a transgression of God's spiritual law. That would include violence, killing, murder etc...
Kat's examples of God's protection of those that are His are perfect examples of how God is able to save and protect us from all harm.
Here is another very awesome testimony to God's power and deliverance:
2 Kings 19
1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.
2 And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.
3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy; for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.
4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God; and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that are left.
5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah.
6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say to your master, Thus saith the Lord, Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.
7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.
8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish.
9 And when he heard say of Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, Behold, he is come out to fight against thee: he sent messengers again unto Hezekiah, saying,
10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God in whom thou trustest deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, by destroying them utterly: and shalt thou be delivered?
12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Thelasar?
13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arpad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, of Hena, and Ivah?
14 And Hezekiah received the letter of the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up into the house of the Lord, and spread it before the Lord.
15 And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said, O Lord God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
16 Lord, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, Lord, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God.
17 Of a truth, Lord, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands,
18 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
19 Now therefore, O Lord our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the Lord God, even thou only.
20 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard.
21 This is the word that the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.
22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.
23 By thy messengers thou hast reproached the Lord, and hast said, With the multitude of my chariots I am come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon, and will cut down the tall cedar trees thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the lodgings of his borders, and into the forest of his Carmel.
24 I have digged and drunk strange waters, and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of besieged places.
25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps.
26 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded; they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the house tops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up.
27 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.
28 Because thy rage against me and thy tumult is come up into mine ears, therefore I will put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.
29 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such things as grow of themselves, and in the second year that which springeth of the same; and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruits thereof.
30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.
31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.
32 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it.
33 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord.
34 For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.
37 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Armenia. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.
Anyway the thread I linked might have some other helpful information in regards to this discussion.
God bless,
Alex
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I think the best example from scripture is Jesus allowing the Soldiers to kill him.He didn't retaliate,even though he knows he could've,even though he had the power to retaliate.
Mat 16:25 "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it,but whoever loses his life for me will find it."
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Self preservation was born in us, it is one of the strongest feelings we have. Is this not from God our Creator, is this carnal or what?? I'm sorry but I would defend my family with everything I had and if it was God's will I pay for this, so be it. If it is a great sin, so be it. I am not saying it is right but I would defend myself and others also.
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Jesus hid from the Jews many times.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
They must have been incredibly angry to hear a man declare himself "I am." Jesus hid himself and got away from them. Just because someone wants to kill you, doesn't mean you have to let them. It also doesn't mean you have to kill them first. Kat brings up some good scriptures and Alex brought up a good passage. God will protect His people.
As Dennis said in another thread, "Trust God but wear your seatbelt." Wearing a literal seatbelt doesn't mean you don't trust God to protect you in a car accident, it's just being smart. John mentioned in a recent thread (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16319.msg147475.html#msg147475), Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid a beating. He didn't just sit there and take it. He was smart and said "Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?" (Acts 22:25)
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"Though He slay me, yet will I serve Him."
I can't put the sermon on the mount on every person in the world, in every situation. But as God gives me grace, I want more and more to do as He said, regardless of cost.
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Self preservation was born in us, it is one of the strongest feelings we have. Is this not from God our Creator, is this carnal or what?? I'm sorry but I would defend my family with everything I had and if it was God's will I pay for this, so be it. If it is a great sin, so be it. I am not saying it is right but I would defend myself and others also.
Hi Judy, I know it seems irrational to stand by and not try to stop a person intent on a crime, that is certainly not the way of this world. We are a nation full of people armed and ready to protect what is theirs. Even people that are not for owning a gun would fight somebody wanting to steal their stuff or do harm to them, it just seems logical. But as Loc pointed out it is not wrong to get out of the way of danger, to hid from it, not present ourselves as a sacrifice or something. But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be.
When Jesus gave the sermon of the mount He continued on to give many examples of the ways this world/age and how He is teaching His disciples/believers/elect to be different, to separate from the ways of the world.
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
This is the way of the world, "hate your enemy" stop them and beat them down and be superior over them. Now look at what Jesus says is how we should be.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
This age is already determination what it will be, "He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good," we should not fight against what God has already ordained... and why would we? So we can keep all our stuff, the physical things we have accumulated... isn't everything we have a blessing FROM God?
But our natural desire to survive, and that is given to us very strongly, it is in opposition to just standing back and letting things happen, not to fight somebody. No our human nature is to beat them and give them exactly what they are giving us. Again that is the way of this world, to resist, to struggle, to fight evil as if we can change what is to be.
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
v. 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Well then certainly we should fight attackers to save our lives or those of our loved ones?
Mat 6:26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
v. 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
Job 14:5 The length of our lives is decided beforehand--- the number of months we will live. You have settled it, and it can't be changed. (GNB)
If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway. Certainly we are given minds to reason when to leave or get out of the way of danger if we can. We are not to be like this world, we are peculiar which means - 1: belonging exclusively to one person or group 2: characteristic, distinctive.
2Cor 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
v. 18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
v. 12 It trains us to renounce ungodly living and worldly passions so that we might live sensible, honest, and godly lives in the present age
v. 13 as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
v. 14 He gave Himself for us to set us free from every wrong and to cleanse us so that we could be His special (peculiar) people who are enthusiastic about doing good deeds. (ISV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Nelson (or anyone) can you post the link to where Ray said what is quoted in the original post? The quote about the gun /Rottweiler..
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As Dennis said in another thread, "Trust God but wear your seatbelt." Wearing a literal seatbelt doesn't mean you don't trust God to protect you in a car accident, it's just being smart. John mentioned in a recent thread (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16319.msg147475.html#msg147475), Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid a beating. He didn't just sit there and take it. He was smart and said "Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?" (Acts 22:25)
Paul claimed his roman citizenship to avoid physical pain. The bible tells us that this happened but it doesn't tell us whether or not it was right or wrong in Gods eyes for Paul to do this.
We read of Moses that he elected to suffer alongside the people of God rather than to enjoy the benefits of his royal citizenship. We are told that Gods people are citizens of the coming kingdom and not this kingdom. Christ said His kingdom was not of this world. We read that those who belong to God are wanderers and strangers, aliens to this world. Ray himself said that if we think we are ambassadors of Christ then we shouldn't even vote. Ambassadors do not vote in a host nation.
I don't think that Paul was giving us an example to follow when he claimed worldly citizenship to avoid a beating. I see it as possibly being a moment of weakness. Maybe not.
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What happened to him after he claimed his citizenship?
Act 26:32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.
A moment of weakness? No. A moment of brilliance.
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Ah yes Dave... He appealed to Cesar which led him on a long journey and God used it all.. Scratch that.. God CAUSED it all for His own purposes and His own glory..
But God also caused/used Joseph's brothers to sell Joseph into slavery which God used for good.. We wouldn't say that was a moment of brilliance on the part of Joseph's brothers even though it turned out to benefit them later in life..
Perhaps Paul was trying to earn a ticket to see Cesar? If so then yes. I'd say brilliant in deed. Can we tell from scripture whether or not Paul was trying to avoid a beating vs securing a trip to see Cesar?
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kat, my instincts were honed from childhood, still a problem with me. The flight or fight response , well, usually until lately the fight response would win. At this time my mouth is gaining control but if there is danger my whole body goes on alert and it is strong. I know i couldn't stand by so I will pray that the rest of my life God will not allow any situation where i would have to fight be eliminated. God knows me through and through so I will trust Him for this. Defense mechanisms are hard to break. Thanks everybody, will do my best with this new thought. Not promising anything though. judy
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God INTENDED the evil that Joseph's brothers did for good. It was 'good' for Joseph first, and because of that it was 'good' for the brothers. That's the Gospel of the Kingdom, in shadow.
No, I don't think you can say that it was a moment of brilliance in the minds of the brothers. But it was a moment of brilliance in the Mind of God to purpose this and to have it recorded in Scripture. Paul had the mind of Christ...the brothers were wicked and ignorant. You could also say Joseph gained Wisdom. Jesus is Lord, however. Whether we are dialed into wisdom or washed along by our own carnality, it is within the plan and purpose of God for Good.
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Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
The above is written about Rome. Rome! What governing authority in the history of the world did not defend it's people? What governing authority does not have consequences for doing harm? None. Read verse 4, "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason... they are agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. "
I have a house alarm but do not expect it to protect me if God wills ill. But I am also aware that I do not leave an open house as a temptation for someone to do wrong. I lock my car door and probably most of you do to. Why tempt someone in their moment of weakness?
Years ago we were in West Berlin and I lost my purse. Which of course means I lost my ID card and I was in the middle of communist Germany. My husband was so upset and so worried that he wouldn't be able to get me home anytime soon. Of course I was upset but I kept praying for the poor soul that stole my purse and wondered what his life must be like. Our hotel key was also in the purse which gave us some fear that someone would break in the room. You know what happened? It really was amazing. That guy brought my purse to the hotel because the name was written on the key. He said he found it, but I have always believed he saw our reaction and saw our young children and God caused him to repent from taking it.
So, lock your door, watch your kids and your belongings, and have mercy on everyone around you. I believe that is what is expected of us.
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Kat,
I think the way you presented Scripture was inspired.
It's our nature to protect, but our nature is also carnality. Within my nature is the perceived ability to protect my daughter from harm. Isn't that the essence of carnality? That "we" can do "something"?
It's God who wills and does good. Are "we" more capable than God?
There are two parts to me, which is an obvious thing to say, but maybe something i don't consider often enough. My carnality, which desires to be a man, and my spirituality that desires to be Godly.
What is my responsibility regarding the lives of my family, and what is my responsibility to God? God is sovereign. He doesn't need me to stand in His place.
It's true that there is no possibility, apart from God's intervention, that I wouldn't protect my daughter and granddaughter from harm, but that is likely, me telling God that I can do it better.
The way you expressed this, is in its essence Godly, and righteous. When you break everything down, the Truth is that God is in control of everything, and unless God wills it there is nothing I can do that would improve something unless that's His plan.
Our carnality leads us away from God. Our obedience and faith brings us closer to Him. I think that's the answer to this dilemma.
What you expressed is obedience and it was inspiring.
God bless,
Jeff
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Within my nature is the perceived ability to protect my daughter from harm. Isn't that the essence of carnality? That "we" can do "something"?
It's God who wills and does good. Are "we" more capable than God?
Here is where I think we can go off on a tangent. We tend to see some things as black and white only. Are there not shades of gray as well? If as a earthly Father you labor to provide and protect your wife and children does that mean your not trusting in God's provision? If you go out and work your job to provide for your family does that mean that your not trusting in God's provision? Or, conversely does God rather expect you to be active and do what you can do? Tis true that we can do nothing in and of ourselves but do we sit back and fold our arms waiting for manna out of heaven or do we get busy doing what we can do with what God has given us and then let the results be up to him.
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
We can take it a little bit further. Do we have insurance on our homes and vehicles? Do we have health insurance? Do we have a savings account in a bank, a pension or a 401-K account? Most of the members here including myself are people of very modest means but we also have a few who are rather wealthy as far as material goods go. If you have a lot of investments and a stock portfolio does that mean you are not trusting in God's provision or rather are you trying to be a good steward with what God has given you? If you or your family are sick and go to a doctor does that mean that you have no faith and are acting out of carnality instead of trusting God for healing? Or can God choose to heal by intervention of a human doctor as well as by a direct answer to prayer? Do we not pray for healing and go to the doctor and let God bring the healing in the way that he chooses to?
Well then what about protecting your daughter then or another mans daughter? If God puts you in the position by his sovereign foreknowledge to intervene against a tragedy does that mean your not trusting in God's provision or did he put you there in order to use you as an instrument? That God may indeed directly intervene and use his angelic host I do not doubt but if God has me in a position to protect the weak and innocent then I'll do what I can at the time. As a dad if another man was to rise up to protect your daughter on the street from harm would you be upset at him because he interfered with God's provision or rather would you not be profoundly grateful to God for putting someone there to watch out for your daughter?
What I think it boils down to like in most things is a heart issue. For those that have the insurance on their homes and possessions along with investments their hearts can be totally wrong and what they are doing is motivated by fear of poverty and lack of trust in the provision of God. Likewise we can run to a doctor out of fear at every sniffle and were really not trusting in God to keep us healthy or we can totally be trusting in God's provision to provide for us materially and physically and go to the doctor occasionally as it's a prudent thing to do. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I might take some sort of action or do something that at the heart of it is totally out of fear and not in trusting God and you might be able to do the same thing in complete faith and be totally trusting in God. For myself I do what I can do with what God have given into my hand in all areas of my life but at the same time I know the results are totally up to God. As the wag once said God may indeed give you the ingredients but he still expects you to cook your own dinner.
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Arion, I understand what you are saying... no we cannot sit back and wait for God, I've always said we have to strive to do the best we can. When I say God is sovereign and has predetermined all things, I do realize we don't know what the future is, so that we should be active in surviving and not waiting on God.
God has brought about things in a way that human can survive with what He has placed in this world, people have learned how to use all these things to meet our needs, but it takes a lot of work on our part. God has also given us minds that can learn and discover incredible things for the good of mankind. We just have to do the best we can in whatever situation we are in.
We have been given the ability to think, learn, reason and figure things out, and we have great love for and desire to care for our families and we are accountable for providing their needs too. Yes it is wise to have insurance for the emergency that might and probably will arise, certainly we use doctors when there is a need. And yes we certainly protect the loved ones from any harm, it would be ridiculous to think a normal person would sit back and let harm come to a child.
If I saw somebody drowning, I would not think that God should save them, certainly I should do whatever I could to help them. If our child was wandering towards a busy street of course we would stop them. We do whatever we can to give our families a safe environment and watch over them, yes indeed. And we should also help a stranger in need or in peril as well. I guess it comes down to, if you find yourself being shot at, would you take up a gun and kill them first or pray for God protection? What would you have more faith in? All of these are just hypercritical situations and we don't really know how we might respond, but usually we have thought of these type things and plan in our minds what we would want to do.
I now have 3 young grand children and I would never stand by and let harm come to them, I would put myself between them and any danger. But should I take up a gun and kill somebody that threatened them? I certainly think not, I really think I would die for them, but not kill for them. The Scripture that have been posted are explicit that we should not act in a way to bring harm to others. Yes the world has different ideas about these things, but that is not what I consider, it is the Scripture where we should get our guidance.
Matt 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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God INTENDED the evil that Joseph's brothers did for good. It was 'good' for Joseph first, and because of that it was 'good' for the brothers. That's the Gospel of the Kingdom, in shadow.
No, I don't think you can say that it was a moment of brilliance in the minds of the brothers. But it was a moment of brilliance in the Mind of God to purpose this and to have it recorded in Scripture. Paul had the mind of Christ...the brothers were wicked and ignorant. You could also say Joseph gained Wisdom. Jesus is Lord, however. Whether we are dialed into wisdom or washed along by our own carnality, it is within the plan and purpose of God for Good.
Indeed.
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Hello Arion,
Consider also this verse of scripture wherein Christ is our example and how when He suffered He did not retaliate;
1 Peter 2:21-24
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
It was very wise of Loc to bring to remembrance how Jesus often hid from those who seeked to do Him harm and the example Paul left of making use of the law to protect him when it was lawful to do so.
No one is advocating that you stand there and watch as evil is perpetrated against you or your family but what we are saying is that we are not to overcome evil by evil. No one with the spirit of God will murder, kill, be violent, under any circumstance. You can protect your family without an eye for an eye. God will make a way but you have to have faith in Him. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Believe that He is and He will.
1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
Romans 12:9-21
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Yes, all these things are a tall order (the calling is a high one) and with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. By His grace we shall do what is good and right in His sight when the time comes because it is God which works in us.
God bless,
Alex
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We are called to battle but...
2 Corinthians 10:4 “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.”
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Hi
What about when Jesus chased the money changers out of the Temple with a whip?
That seems pretty violent to me.
Felix
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Maybe not so much about being violent but taking a stand for truth
http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm
AN ANGRY CHRIST IN A DEN OF THIEVES
Did JESUS ever get angry over crime and corruption within the church?
"And they came to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple, and OVERTURNED the table of the money-changers, and the SEATS of them that sold doves: And would NOT ALLOW that any man should carry any wares through the temple"(Mark 11:15-16).
Now then, were any of these activities being performed in the Temple ILLEGAL? No, they were not. The officers of the Temple allowed it according to their laws, and the Roman Government allowed it according to their laws. So these merchants in the Temple were not criminals. Or were they?
Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:
"And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!
Does anyone believe that Jesus was SMILING while He turned over their tables and accused them of making His House a "DEN OF THIEVES?"
Be angry and do not sin is was Jesus did
Eph 4:25-27 Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another; be angry and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give place to the devil
Rhys
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I can appreciate the desire to overcome what we experience in our daily mortal coil, but the fact is, that everything from here on out is ALL spiritual.
Even if this isn't the age in which we see our Messiah return, everything that truly matters is spiritual, and that will only increase as time passes, and God brings more people to the truth. Mortality is something were required to experience for now but it has no bearing the future.
2 Chorinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
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Kat,
Over the years you've provided a consistently sound perspective regarding God's word and Ray's teachings - so many have. I'm blessed by your responses over and over. You have the mind and heart of Christ, and not just you, but truly everyone here. Your last response in this thread was inspired. You would put yourself in harms way to protect, but not resort to violence - that is of God.
This is the message of Christ - sacrifice, obedience, faith. The faith that, if we do our best according to God's will, He'll provide what we lack.
Philippians 4:19 "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus"
This is Thanksgiving and I'm thankful for everyone here.
Jeff
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Friend Kat,
I appreciate your recent comments.
One thing that I haven't noticed being mentioned yet is to completely put our trust in God's protection.
That way we won't have to worry about using lethal force to defend our selves or the children we are responsible for.
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HOWEVER...for this approach to work effectively we each need to stay close to God every day in every way.
We cannot wait until a threat or other emergency arises, we must put our lives in God's hand every morning and every evening and as we walk our walk in daily life.
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God will protect HIS own until their training is completed AND God will intervene for our dear loved ones for our behalf, on our behalf as well. The only thing we need to do is recognize that we NEED that protection and to humble ourselves to seek God's protection ALWAYS.
I've handled guns since I was 16 and in the Military Police and as a police officer for six years. I used to train and practice and learn ways to avoid trouble and what to do if trouble came to me. However, as happens to all of us if we live long enough, I got old! My judo training doesn't help any more and my trigger finger is so arthritic that I can't pull the trigger. Now I have to trust that others will protect me and the best friend to have when trouble comes is our loving creator. That is where I stand now because I have no other choice.
Indiana Bob
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My Goodness this is a hard one for sure, is true we have Gods word that instructs us on how we are to live,and it would be great to be able to do it, as much as i want to do it, and do the best i can i still come up way short,i'm weak, my faith is weak, i pray that nothing ever happens that i would have to take a life to protect my wife or children but i probably would,i have weapons for hunting,i think of them as insurance also,have you ever heard the sound of a pump shotgun injecting a shell,i know i wouldn't want to be on the business end of that,maybe thats all it would take,as i said i just pray God keeps me safe from all of that,just being honest here.
Terry
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Hi Largeli
I discovered from where I had done the transcription (many years ago) that included Ray's mention of the "gun and the Rotweiler".
It is in the second half and close to the end of the audio, reference http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-3-06MobileConf.7.mp3
I knew if I looked hard enough, I would find it. Sorry it took me so long to track it down. Colin
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i know this is a serious discussion, but, if a drunk came into a restaurant looking for a fight and slapped manuela around, that man would have made a huge mistake. he obviously wouldn't have know who he was dealing with. she used to work for the police force. she can be a rottweiler if needed. she has a gun. ;D ;)
claudia
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after i went to bed last night my reply to this discussion bothered me to no end,so while i was laying there three stories came to mind, the first was when David slew Goliath and understanding parables to a degree, i saw where Jesus was protecting his people,second was where David was the shepherd of his flock and how he protected them from any wild beast,and thirdly when Jesus was on the ship with his disciples and the ship was being tossed to and fro and Jesus said peace be still,so after thinking about these stories for a bit i had peace,after all i don't even live close to my children to protect them and if anything should happen i know they will be in the resurrection and we will be together one day,so anyway after thinking on these stories i had peace and went to sleep and slept like a baby.
Terry
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A couple of quotes above really stood out to me:
"If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway."
and
" But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."
I have been thinking a lot about this lately. To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc., does seem to me to be a fight against God Himself. As you say, God has everything just as He wants it. So if I feed the hungry, I am opposing God, as He has determined them to be hungry? And yet, is this not the very thing that Jesus instructed us TO DO? (I was hungry, and you fed me....) What kind of heart would we need to have, to be able to look upon the suffering of those around us, and not be moved to help fight the evil and injustice around us with everything we have?
"WE" use the argument 'what kind of God could consign people to eternal torment in hell and not ever have mercy or compassion on them. It would make God a monster or the worst terrorist ever.' Could not the same argument be used against a person who watches those around them suffer from evil and wickedness, and NOT do anything about it?
"He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."......I really wonder about this statement.....I wonder if we will stand before Christ someday and if He will say to us, "I was hungry and you didn't feed me........."
I think very deeply about these things. The reality for me is, despite the fervent prayers of the righteous, people, even God's best and brightest servants (or maybe even ESPECIALLY His servants), are not always protected from death or evil, are not always healed, are not always delivered. Reading the scriptures, it appears that God was very much more visible and active in the affairs of men. When He moved to do something, it seems like He made it perfectly plain what He was doing and who was doing it. NOW, it seems to me, that He has turned His face away from man. It seems to me that He is making a point to be unseen, unknowable and uninvolved. Of course I believe He most definitely is working all things to the good, but it SEEMS like He is not....So to the world, would not the only CHRIST they will ever see in this present age, be the followers of Christ? And just as Christ did when He was alive on this earth, He HEALED, He FED the masses, He had COMPASSION on everyone around Him. Should we not be doing the same? Or trying anyway to anyway? S if we are truly not to mess with what is, and do nothing to fight evil and suffering, what kind of Christ will the world see in us? A cold, distant, uncaring God? These are just some of the thoughts that I struggle with on a daily basis. Death is not really the issue for me. I accept death....But the suffering caused directly by the evil that God has determined to be, weighs heavy on my heart every day. I cannot accept to turn my heart cold and look away from the misery of others if I am able to do something about it.
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A couple of quotes above really stood out to me:
"If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway."
and
" But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."
I have been thinking a lot about this lately. To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc., does seem to me to be a fight against God Himself. As you say, God has everything just as He wants it. So if I feed the hungry, I am opposing God, as He has determined them to be hungry? And yet, is this not the very thing that Jesus instructed us TO DO? (I was hungry, and you fed me....) What kind of heart would we need to have, to be able to look upon the suffering of those around us, and not be moved to help fight the evil and injustice around us with everything we have?
"WE" use the argument 'what kind of God could consign people to eternal torment in hell and not ever have mercy or compassion on them. It would make God a monster or the worst terrorist ever.' Could not the same argument be used against a person who watches those around them suffer from evil and wickedness, and NOT do anything about it?
"He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."......I really wonder about this statement.....I wonder if we will stand before Christ someday and if He will say to us, "I was hungry and you didn't feed me........."
I think very deeply about these things. The reality for me is, despite the fervent prayers of the righteous, people, even God's best and brightest servants (or maybe even ESPECIALLY His servants), are not always protected from death or evil, are not always healed, are not always delivered. Reading the scriptures, it appears that God was very much more visible and active in the affairs of men. When He moved to do something, it seems like He made it perfectly plain what He was doing and who was doing it. NOW, it seems to me, that He has turned His face away from man. It seems to me that He is making a point to be unseen, unknowable and uninvolved. Of course I believe He most definitely is working all things to the good, but it SEEMS like He is not....So to the world, would not the only CHRIST they will ever see in this present age, be the followers of Christ? And just as Christ did when He was alive on this earth, He HEALED, He FED the masses, He had COMPASSION on everyone around Him. Should we not be doing the same? Or trying anyway to anyway? S if we are truly not to mess with what is, and do nothing to fight evil and suffering, what kind of Christ will the world see in us? A cold, distant, uncaring God? These are just some of the thoughts that I struggle with on a daily basis. Death is not really the issue for me. I accept death....But the suffering caused directly by the evil that God has determined to be, weighs heavy on my heart every day. I cannot accept to turn my heart cold and look away from the misery of others if I am able to do something about it.
Matthew 7:15-17
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 5:14-17
“You are the light of the world. A city situated on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lampstand, and it gives light for all who are in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.
Matthew 6:1-4
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people, to be seen by them. Otherwise, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So whenever you give to the poor, don’t sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be applauded by people. I assure you: They’ve got their reward! 3 But when you give to the poor, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Here is a really good study on Faith and works by ray. I highly recommend going through it again:
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So if you go around saying, ‘I’m a Christian and I believe.’ Well what do you do when the chips are down? What do you do when the temptation is there? What do you do when somebody needs you and you’re not going to be there for them? It’s, ‘oh I got faith in God.’ No you don’t, you just talk. It’s one thing to believe in God, it’s another thing to act it out. We don’t always do the best job, I know that. But certainly we shouldn’t argue about it, we shouldn’t try to defend our carnal ways, as though it is good to not do what’s right. I mean that is pretty stupid.
We read in Ephesians that it was this grace, this gift of God through the faith, believing in God, that we will be saved. That our works will not save us, but God through Jesus Christ will perform good works in you. It’s all part of the same package. It’s all within two verses there (Eph 2: 8-9). We already read that. Now notice what James said.
James 2:20 …faith without works is dead?
v. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
We just read it, “because you have done this thing,” that’s a work. But was there no faith involved? Of course he wouldn’t have done this “thing” except what? He believed God. He said, “through your seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Gen 28:14), and Abraham believed that. Now Isaac is that seed. He thought maybe Ishmael was that seed, remember, by his wife Hagar and he said, ‘oh yea Ishmael.’ Not Ishmael, you are going to have another son. Abraham said, what? Are you crazy, I’m 100 years old and my wife is 95? God says, we’re going to do it anyway and she gets pregnant… she is blown away, she is pregnant at 95. Of course they lived to be 200 back then, but…
God told Abraham it was through Isaac and then Jacob, who was changed to Israel and there was twelve tribes, one of which was Judea and out of Judea came Jesus Christ. He said it’s through Isaac. Now when He said, I’m going to bless all the families of the earth, through your son Issac, not Ishmael, Isaac. Abraham believed Him, he says he did.
How can He bless all the nations of the world through the descendants of Isaac, if he kills him? Are you following? Boy what a test. God says one thing, then He says do another. I’m going to bless the whole world through this son and his descendants, now kill him. WHAT? Are you crazy God? How is he going to be a blessing if you… He didn’t know what He meant. He didn’t know if maybe God would resurrect him right after he killed him. But he did it and God said “because you have done this thing.” You see? He said whoa, don’t kill your son, he’s going to live, he’s going to give birth to Jacob, Jacob is going to have twelve sons, they are going to be the children of Israel, Judea is going to be one of them, Christ is going to come out of Judea in the line of David and so on.
Can you see how you can not separate the deed from the faith behind it, you can’t separate it. It is utter stupidity to do it, yet the whole world and Christianity… it’s faith alone. Well we are going to see what faith alone is going to do for this world.
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God bless,
Alex
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Felix,
Do you think Jesus used a "scourge of small cords" on the people,or the sheep and oxen?
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Hi Largeli
I discovered from where I had done the transcription (many years ago) that included Ray's mention of the "gun and the Rotweiler".
It is in the second half and close to the end of the audio, reference http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-3-06MobileConf.7.mp3
I knew if I looked hard enough, I would find it. Sorry it took me so long to track it down. Colin
Colin thank you for taking the time... I'm going to check it out.
Thank you!
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Hi lauriellen, I understand how these things (that I was speaking of and the things you are speaking of) seem to overlap and go together... but I was speaking of a very specific circumstance, using violent force for protection. When I said those things you quoted it was directly 'in connection' to that situation.
Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
When you turn to him the other cheek, that to me is saying do not use violent force even when provoked. Now when you bring up a whole other situation, "To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc.," yes it is the way it is predetermined to be in this age, but those same quotes I said about not being violent, certainly would not and should not apply to our helping people in need.
Even thought this age is what it is and for now we "always have the poor" (Matt 26:11), it's not that we can change how this age is, but it is an opportunity to do good works and by helping the needy, I do not see it as resisting evil, but more like letting "your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven" (Matt 5:16).
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
v. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I am really not trying to be argumentative. I realize this post is about violence and I understand the point being made. But, I think about this a lot....where do we draw the line? I agree that it is good to 'resist evil' by feeding the poor, doing good in a non-violent manner, etc., but where is the line? We can go "this" far, but not "this far"? And here is the reason I think upon these things so deeply. I live on a ranch. My family makes our living from livestock. I have defended my livestock many times by killing predators threatening my livestock. I have taken the life of downed cattle with broken legs/back, that will suffer and die horribly if not mercifully ending their suffering. But if a human predator was attacking my family, I would not be able to use force to stop it? So, with the reasoning above, I can not protect my livestock, and I especially can not protect my family. By the reasoning above, would I not be obligated to stop raising livestock all together for food, as I know they are being raised to be killed (which is a form of violence against animals) ? Should I become a vegetarian farmer instead? I wonder how many here are strictly vegans because eating meat means the killing of animals and is violent? As far as I understand, Jesus ate meat? Or, perhaps, was His instructions to not resist evil a specific instruction given to a specific group (the deciples) for a specific ministry? I know He said AS MUCH AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, live peaceably with all men (and I feel like I do this), so does that also give a little room for the reasonable action to protect using the minimum amount of force possible? I don't know the answer, and I am not sure that there is just ONE answer to every situation. I take no joy from any form of violence, but I have accepted that it is a part of the world we live in, and weather we take up arms or just eat meat, we are participating in it weather we acknowledge it or not. If anyone who has not watched an animal being butchered thinks that it is not violent, I urge you to just watch it once. It will change your perspective on those pretty little packages of meat you buy at the grocery store.
respectfully,
lauriellen
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I am really not trying to be argumentative. I realize this post is about violence and I understand the point being made. But, I think about this a lot....where do we draw the line? I agree that it is good to 'resist evil' by feeding the poor, doing good in a non-violent manner, etc., but where is the line? We can go "this" far, but not "this far"? And here is the reason I think upon these things so deeply. I live on a ranch. My family makes our living from livestock. I have defended my livestock many times by killing predators threatening my livestock. I have taken the life of downed cattle with broken legs/back, that will suffer and die horribly if not mercifully ending their suffering. But if a human predator was attacking my family, I would not be able to use force to stop it? So, with the reasoning above, I can not protect my livestock, and I especially can not protect my family. By the reasoning above, would I not be obligated to stop raising livestock all together for food, as I know they are being raised to be killed (which is a form of violence against animals) ? Should I become a vegetarian farmer instead? I wonder how many here are strictly vegans because eating meat means the killing of animals and is violent? As far as I understand, Jesus ate meat? Or, perhaps, was His instructions to not resist evil a specific instruction given to a specific group (the deciples) for a specific ministry? I know He said AS MUCH AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, live peaceably with all men (and I feel like I do this), so does that also give a little room for the reasonable action to protect using the minimum amount of force possible? I don't know the answer, and I am not sure that there is just ONE answer to every situation. I take no joy from any form of violence, but I have accepted that it is a part of the world we live in, and weather we take up arms or just eat meat, we are participating in it weather we acknowledge it or not. If anyone who has not watched an animal being butchered thinks that it is not violent, I urge you to just watch it once. It will change your perspective on those pretty little packages of meat you buy at the grocery store.
respectfully,
lauriellen
Hi Lauri,
I think there is a big difference between doing harm to another person and doing harm to an animal. The scriptures make it plain that the animals were given to us for food.
Gen 1:30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
Genesis 9:1-7
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Was it not daily that by the commandments of God the animals were sacrificed [killed] constantly at the alter?
Furthermore, killing and murder are two different things. While murder always involves killing, killing is not always murder. We kill animals, we murder people.
kill·ing
ˈkiliNG/Submit
noun
1. an act of causing death, especially deliberately.
mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
You saw in Genesis the warning against shedding the blood of another person. Here are more admonishments against murder:
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Matthew 15:16-20
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not murder.
So then love really is the fulfillment of the law because love does no harm to another PERSON.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "You must not commit adultery; you must not murder; you must not steal; you must not covet," and every other commandment are summed up in this statement: "You must love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:10 Love never does anything that is harmful to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the Law.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets
Strong's -- Neighbor: that is FELLOW (as MAN....).
I think the scriptures are clear on these matters. The biggest stumbling block for most people in the world is simply believing the scriptures. Believing what is right in front of them.
God bless,
Alex
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Alex you precisely made my point. Killing and murder are not the same. I agree it is wrong to murder someone, but I wonder if killing is sometimes justified. Does not God himself kill without sin?
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lauriellen, yes the world does believe it is okay to 'kill' your enemy, that is the teaching of the old testament and what the whole world lives by.
Lev 26:2 You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.
v. 3 'If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,
Lev 26:7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
A few chosen people are being taught the truth, that one day all mankind will be saved and all will be sisters and brothers in Christ. Though that isn't until the next age when all people will be taught righteous and how to live together in peace... a few are learning to come out of the ways of this world and be different now. Christ is teaching a few that the new covenant is about the spiritual laws that He gave to His Apostles and on to us. These spiritual laws not only teach us 'not' to kill another person, but that we should 'love' all people even our enemies, and you certainly would not kill those you should love.
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
v. 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
You need to make the distinction though, that killing an animal is completely different than killing a person. Animals are given for human to have dominion over (Gen 1:26. 28) and consume (Gen 1:30)... certainly slaughter should be done in a humane manner, thought I suppose it usually is not.
And we cannot compare what we as humans do, with what our perfect God does that has given us all life in this world to start with. He actually brings about the ultimate death of all people that live, as He is responsible for all life and death in this creation.
Now if it is confusing as to where to draw the line, Scripture tells us exactly where that line is... you are just making it more confusing by bringing up all kinds of differing scenarios that actually do not apply to this very specific thing of killing another human being.
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
v. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
v. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
The chosen are being prepared now in this age how to live by God's spiritual laws that will be applied to all people in the next age. No matter what life we were living before God opened our eyes, when we learn these truths, we are then to be different and not like the world any longer. We must love others as much as we love ourselves, and you certainly would not want to kill somebody else, any more than you would kill yourself (not if you are living by God's truths anyway). It's a process to learn to put out faith and trust totally in an invisible God, but that is exactly what we have to do and with the Spirit indwelling we can!
Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that He answered them well, asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"
v. 29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
v. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
v. 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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God has the right to kill because He alone makes alive. We humans do not have power over the spirit, to give life or take it back. This belongs to God alone.
Job 5:18 For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal.
1 Samuel 2:6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Deuteronomy 32:40 And say, I am the life, unto times age-abiding:
Killing another person--MURDER--is NEVER justified for us to do in the eyes of God. Humanity has yet much to learn and for most it will be in the next age in the lake. The scriptures have been presented to you and they are very plain. There is no confusion unless you wrestle with the scriptures to your own destruction.
God be with you,
Alex
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kat, you used two words, deliberate and premeditated. In an unexpected act of violence against another i do not see where there is much time (usually these sort of things go down very quickly) where there is no time to deliberate or premeditate it is just a reaction by instinct. I certainly would not judge another for protecting themselves.
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God forbid that any of us be put in a situation where we would have to defend ourselves or others by force. I agree that we should shun violence with everything we have. Having said that, I disagree that all killing is murder, and I agree with Judy that none of us know with certainty what we would do in an unexpected situation when there is no time to think and a reflex/instinctual reaction takes over. I guess whatever we are led to do at that moment will be what God has willed for us to do. I always pray that God would deliver my family and I from all evil, and I also know by experience that He doesn't always. So, in every situation, my prayer is that God's will be done. I ask for guidance and deliverance, I am accountable, but as Ray used to say, God is responsible.
lauriellen.
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We should not be the way we used to be, we are not like the world, we do not operate according to the carnal instinct(?), we do not kill... that is the way of the old self, the way of the world.
Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles (Strong's - heathen) do, in the futility of their minds.
v. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
v. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
v. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!—
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
v. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
v. 17 even the Spirit of truth (Jesus Christ), whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
When Christ's Spirit comes indwelling, we are "renewed in the spirit of our minds," so that we no longer think like the world, our attitude is changed and we no longer depend on our self or the world for protection, our faith must be in God.
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
v. 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
When Christ has clearly instructed us to "repay no one evil for evil," how can you think it is okay if you kill somebody for any reason? If we are obeying and feeding His Spirit within us, it will change our attitude about these things until our mind agrees with His Spirit in us. We must overcome the world and His Spirit in us will do just that.
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease."
v. 31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth (Strong's - world) belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.
1John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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"Trust me when I say that if it has not yet happened, it will, when your faith with be tried in a way that is just between you and your God, and there won't even be time to send me an email. Bottom line: Don't try to come up with 'hypothetical' situations in which you think that the laws of God and the ways of God would not be fair, or practical, or logical, and therefore would have to be changed, altered, or just totally thrown away as useless in practical, real life situations.
The shame is that many people who have used alternative measures to God's ways, and have failed in so doing, will never know how things would have been different had they just trusted God in the first place. It is oh so true, that "we learn obedience by the things WE SUFFER." - L.Ray Smith
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The scriptures are abundantly clear as to how we should conduct ourselves as a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many of those scriptures are brought to our attention here.
The way I see it there is a big difference in being a doer of the Word, and being hearers only.
James 1:22-But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Joel
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To all, i have to be perfectly honest with you because that's who I am. My son (at a party) was speaking to a sister of a old high school buddy and the older man with her who, by the way, had a track record a mile long took umbrage and was jealous. At this time my son had only a speeding ticket on his record and also an article in the paper where he captured 2 guys stealing from the park across the way. He held one down at gunpoint and the other ran away. He did not try to shoot the runner.
The older man and his girlfriend were found to be high on crack, the man started to get nasty, my son left immediately for his truck but the man caught him and took him down, the girl appeared and both were kicking him in the head and beating him. My son felt himself go in and out of consciousness and thought , "who would raise my son if i died". He had raised him from a baby by himself, the mother was mostly absent .At that point he shot the man, the man died. This was all caught on video and my son was released without even bond. This subject is too close to home and not far away in time yet. My son went onto a terrible depression questioning over and over whether he could have done something different. He wishes it never happened and he really hasn't been the same since. And if you want justice how about this, one year later his son who had Auspergers shot himself in the head and died. Was this the vengeance of God? I do not know. Looking back my grandson would have gone with his mother which is what the child always wanted, his mother. I;ll never understand. maybe you can see the dilemna. Perhaps it would have been better, I surely couldn't choose. judy
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Judy. That's a tragic situation.. Wow. So sorry.
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Judy I am so sorry. That is exactly why I have said that not all killing is murder. And it is ESPECIALLY NOT as someone wrote above, most people are NOT out looking for any excuse to "kill someone for any reason".....most, including myself, would rather be left alone, we seek peace earnestly, we pray to be delivered from evil, we pray that we would never be forced to use force to defend ourselves or our family, but sometimes, life just puts you in a corner that way. Your son did not go looking for trouble. He sought the way of peace and tried to leave. How could anyone find fault with a person only trying to defend themselves, not because they wanted to or was looking for any excuse to kill some, simply trying to live peaceable among others as much as it depended upon him, but they would not let him alone. I can not find where Jesus told the soldier that he was a murderer and must change professions. He said He didn't see anyone with as much faith as the soldier had. With the line of reasoning above, you are saying that our PEACE officers and military are MURDERERS, not peacekeepers or protectors who only KILL when the evil people FORCE them to, but make it sound like they are looking for any excuse to murder someone. I just don't know about that .... all I know to say is God's will be done.
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Judy I am so sorry. That is exactly why I have said that not all killing is murder. And it is ESPECIALLY NOT as someone wrote above, most people are NOT out looking for any excuse to "kill someone for any reason".....most, including myself, would rather be left alone, we seek peace earnestly, we pray to be delivered from evil, we pray that we would never be forced to use force to defend ourselves or our family, but sometimes, life just puts you in a corner that way. Your son did not go looking for trouble. He sought the way of peace and tried to leave. How could anyone find fault with a person only trying to defend themselves, not because they wanted to or was looking for any excuse to kill some, simply trying to live peaceable among others as much as it depended upon him, but they would not let him alone. I can not find where Jesus told the soldier that he was a murderer and must change professions. He said He didn't see anyone with as much faith as the soldier had. With the line of reasoning above, you are saying that our PEACE officers and military are MURDERERS, not peacekeepers or protectors who only KILL when the evil people FORCE them to, but make it sound like they are looking for any excuse to murder someone. I just don't know about that .... all I know to say is God's will be done.
Lauri,
You are correct that I should not have stated all killing of persons is murder because murder is defined as pre-meditated unlawful act of killing another person. I was careless and did not pay attention to the unlawful and premeditated part of the definition I used. I was wrong on that.
My incorrect understanding of the English word though does not change what we are being taught in scripture is the proper way to behave towards those who would seek us harm. Jesus IS our example. We are to be like Him! The apostles left an example as well. None returned violence for violence, an eye for an eye. That is what Jesus preached against! While Jesus did not say anything to that particular soldier about his current vocation, He also did not say it was okay to kill in self defense. Countless scriptures presented in this thread testify to the complete opposite of what you are saying. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established because no verse is becoming its own interpretation. It appears you are disregarding these witnesses presented and even pitting them against a single verse (Luke 3:14) which neither argues for nor against your point (that is; killing in self defense is okay).
Jesus said if you cannot deny yourself then you are not worthy of me. The calling is very high and while I can speak to no one's particular circumstance, I can speak to what I know is testified to plainly in our faces.
You cannot turn and give the other cheek whilst also killing to defend it (your other cheek). You can't love your enemies and also kill them. You can't 'put your sword in its place' while also using it to kill.
God's spiritual calling is a high one and its not for everyone. Many of Christ's own disciples turned and followed Him no more because what He was teaching was too heavy for them.
I don't know how I would react in an unfortunate situation as Judy's son found himself in but as ray said,
"The shame is that many people who have used alternative measures to God's ways, and have failed in so doing, will never know how things would have been different had they just trusted God in the first place. It is oh so true, that "we learn obedience by the things WE SUFFER.""
I too, like you, pray the Lord keep me from such an evil day as judy's son experienced.
In the end, all I know is what God's spirit tells me is right by His Word and I hope and pray that by His grace and mercy I will do the right and good thing all my life that I may know Him more and become more like Him.
I will say nothing more on the matter.
God be with you,
Alex
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Wait... So killing is bad. Unless I'm wearing an official uniform with a shiny badge? As long as there's some writing on a piece of paper somewhere and we call it "law" then it's ok? Kinda like magic.. Killing is wrong unless you have a magic uniform and use the magic word "law".
Law enforcement killed Christ.
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There is the way of the world/age that is according to the ruler of it - Satan... we, only a very few must stand apart from that way.
1John 5:18 We know that the person who has been born (begotten) from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.
v. 19 We know that we are from God and that the whole world lies under the control of the evil one. (ISV)
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
v. 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
lauriellen, it is your choice to believe and live as you so desire... you believe, according to the law of the land, that you can kill somebody to defend yourself or family - maybe so, but God says "do NOT resist evil." There is the ways of the world and then there is the ways of God and there is a huge difference between the two... to kill or not to kill is one of these differences. Either you are carnal minded - worldly or spiritual minded.
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
You can decide whatever you want to on this... but trying to make a stand on this here? You should not think it strange that you are being opposed here.
Pro 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, I truly would never want to hurt anyone. I hope and pray that I am never in that situation. I hope and pray to do only what is right and pleasing to God if I am. I try to make sense of scripture as best I can with the limited understanding that God has given me. I also would never judge anyone or think myself more righteous than someone who has been led to defend themselves. You said that it is MY choice to believe and live as I desire.....If I understand Ray's teaching correctly, I can only choose the ONE POSSIBLE choice that God has already determined for me to make, as I understand that He is in control of every circumstance that influences my every belief and choice.
If I am lucky enough to be counted among the few (and I would never be so bold as to assume that I am one of the 'we'), God will see to it that I do the right thing. If I am not, then no amount of effort and scripture reading will give me the ability to do the right thing. Either way, my life is His, and I am at peace with that. God help us all.
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In discussing these things it does get personal when we bring our feelings into it, you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine, that is the discussion. But do not think that I'm personally judging you on this, this is about what I'm seeing in the Scripture and how to obey what God is teaching us.
Yes we are making choices by what our understanding is on a matter and WE will be help accountable for those choices. God is ultimately responsible for making things as they are, but we will give account, because we think and reason and choose what we want or think is right.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm -------------
For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?
Respectfully,
Chris
[Ray Replies]
Dear Chris:
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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To all, i have to be perfectly honest with you because that's who I am. My son (at a party) was speaking to a sister of a old high school buddy and the older man with her who, by the way, had a track record a mile long took umbrage and was jealous. At this time my son had only a speeding ticket on his record and also an article in the paper where he captured 2 guys stealing from the park across the way. He held one down at gunpoint and the other ran away. He did not try to shoot the runner.
The older man and his girlfriend were found to be high on crack, the man started to get nasty, my son left immediately for his truck but the man caught him and took him down, the girl appeared and both were kicking him in the head and beating him. My son felt himself go in and out of consciousness and thought , "who would raise my son if i died". He had raised him from a baby by himself, the mother was mostly absent .At that point he shot the man, the man died. This was all caught on video and my son was released without even bond. This subject is too close to home and not far away in time yet. My son went onto a terrible depression questioning over and over whether he could have done something different. He wishes it never happened and he really hasn't been the same since. And if you want justice how about this, one year later his son who had Auspergers shot himself in the head and died. Was this the vengeance of God? I do not know. Looking back my grandson would have gone with his mother which is what the child always wanted, his mother. I;ll never understand. maybe you can see the dilemna. Perhaps it would have been better, I surely couldn't choose. judy
Judy,
I'm devastated by what you, your son, and grandson experienced. This is nothing but a tragedy. It isn't Gods vengeance - God is love. This is a trial and if nothing else it makes me realize how trivial my own trials are. My heart, thoughts, and prayers are with you.
I pray for peace for you and your son.
Jeff
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Judy, my heart goes out to you and your son. My prayers are with you both. I pray that your son can find peace with the help of God, that's the only way. It seems when we do somethig to others even when we are protecting ourselves or someone else we have to live with the guilt of our actions I know because I have been in that situation. I don't believe we should use violence if we are to be one of God's chosen, because the word of God says so and God knows when one human being hurts another human being there is going to be guilt especially if God is choosing you to be one of His in this age. We be put in a private prison in our minds and it leaves very little room to think about God when we are so consumed with what we did or didn't do. I have been there and done that. It is a horrible place to be, overthinking our actions. If God be willing I hope none of us find ourselves in a situation where we might have to make a quick call, but if we do may God's will be done. May God put peace and comfort in your heart Judy and give rest to your soul.
Your sister in Christ,
Virginia Miller
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Jeff and all the others who are attempting to walk through that straight and narrow gait I take each answer seriously and ponder. I must get used to the fact I will never know for sure the correct answer, if there is one. I do feel your compassion and even with the Word of God butting up against all our human nature how you stick to the Word. I try too hard to figure things out and must realize I just can't. I admire people who hold their ground and at the same time show understanding of our humanity. There are no finer people i know than those who question, struggle and yet attempt practicality in this unholy world. God bless each and every one of you, you will never know how much I appreciate your trying. No better Christians could I ask for and be a part of. I love all of you. Sincerely, judy
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Jeff and all the others who are attempting to walk through that straight and narrow gait I take each answer seriously and ponder. I must get used to the fact I will never know for sure the correct answer, if there is one. I do feel your compassion and even with the Word of God butting up against all our human nature how you stick to the Word. I try too hard to figure things out and must realize I just can't. I admire people who hold their ground and at the same time show understanding of our humanity. There are no finer people i know than those who question, struggle and yet attempt practicality in this unholy world. God bless each and every one of you, you will never know how much I appreciate your trying. No better Christians could I ask for and be a part of. I love all of you. Sincerely, judy
As Kat is fond of saying, "Mercy, peace, and love" to you Judy. May God make straight the path and safe the way that lead's to Him for all those who are loving Him. It is all we can hope and pray for in this present all too abundantly evil age.
God bless,
Alex
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Jeff and all the others who are attempting to walk through that straight and narrow gait I take each answer seriously and ponder. I must get used to the fact I will never know for sure the correct answer, if there is one. I do feel your compassion and even with the Word of God butting up against all our human nature how you stick to the Word. I try too hard to figure things out and must realize I just can't. I admire people who hold their ground and at the same time show understanding of our humanity. There are no finer people i know than those who question, struggle and yet attempt practicality in this unholy world. God bless each and every one of you, you will never know how much I appreciate your trying. No better Christians could I ask for and be a part of. I love all of you. Sincerely, judy
As Kat is fond of saying, "Mercy, peace, and love" to you Judy. May God make straight the path and safe the way that lead's to Him for all those who are loving Him. It is all we can hope and pray for in this present all too abundantly evil age.
God bless,
Alex
AMEN! Alex :)
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I think what you've shared, Kat, both Ray's teachings, and your own personal perspective, is inspired. I really believe that - actually I can see it.
We're called to love our enemies and be at peace with everyone as much as it is up to us - referring to Romans 12:18. That's how we're meant to live. Jesus harmed no one - he healed, ministered, taught, and corrected, and that's love. As it's been mentioned (I think) - He healed the servants ear when it was cut off - Mark 14:47 and we're to model ourselves after Christ - and Kat, I think you expressed that beautifully.
I also think that if we failed to live up to Christs example, for instance seeing someone being harmed, and in the process killed someone, we're forgiven. And in making that choice we get to experience all of the horror that comes from taking a life. We don't escape that. It isn't something we would just shake off. We would suffer, and I have to believe that God would use that to our advantage, as we learn humility.
Romans 8:28 "...all things work together..."
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True enough, Jeff...and one failing is not the end of life for everyone. He is reconciling ALL THINGS unto Himself and has GIVEN TO US the ministry of reconciliation. Who's "US"? Those who have done what He says.
But ONE DAY the world will be judged and ruled by those who have not said unto Him "Lord, Lord" but have done the things He said. No more scattered 'inspiring moral examples' giving courage to a few, but those who will have 'received the promise', having "endured to the end", ruling and reigning with Christ.
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True enough, Jeff...and one failing is not the end of life for everyone. He is reconciling ALL THINGS unto Himself and has GIVEN TO US the ministry of reconciliation. Who's "US"? Those who have done what He says.
But ONE DAY the world will be judged and ruled by those who have not said unto Him "Lord, Lord" but have done the things He said. No more scattered 'inspiring moral examples' giving courage to a few, but those who will have 'received the promise', having "endured to the end", ruling and reigning with Christ.
Dave,
Exactly! :)
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All helpful comments that help us to grow in grace and knowledge.
I hope we all can realize that God can and does forgive every sin; no exceptions.
Therefore in many cases the most difficult thing to grasp is to be able to forgive ourselves: even 70 times 7. (matthew 18:21-22
Consider what the apostle Saul/Paul had to live with from his past and how God was able to use him.
Maybe forgiving ourselves is the hardest part of the repentance program to come to terms with. Mostly because we find it so hard to forgive others the terrible things they have done against ourselves or against humanity.
1 Cor 10:13
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
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I thought this quote from a friend was worth sharing for your consideration:
"I'm going to take another shot at this, so that I can make myself clear....and because I love my pacifist brothers and sisters dearly.
If an attacker is threatening the life of my wife, I will do what I must to stop him, using the least amount of force necessary, and thinking of him as if he were my own *son, whom I love.
I believe that the use of force is sinful, but not as sinful as it would be to become an accomplice to the murder of my wife by my passivity.
I am not justifying the use of force. I'm saying, when all the options are bad, pick the one that is the least bad. This does not therefore make the option good. It remains bad. Just not as bad as the others."-Daniel Skillman
.....just thought it was worth considering. And again, this doesn't change the fact that I think it's wrong. I just don't think it's *as wrong as the other alternatives.
lauriellen
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I thought this quote from a friend was worth sharing for your consideration:
"I'm going to take another shot at this, so that I can make myself clear....and because I love my pacifist brothers and sisters dearly.
If an attacker is threatening the life of my wife, I will do what I must to stop him, using the least amount of force necessary, and thinking of him as if he were my own *son, whom I love.
I believe that the use of force is sinful, but not as sinful as it would be to become an accomplice to the murder of my wife by my passivity.
I am not justifying the use of force. I'm saying, when all the options are bad, pick the one that is the least bad. This does not therefore make the option good. It remains bad. Just not as bad as the others."-Daniel Skillman
.....just thought it was worth considering. And again, this doesn't change the fact that I think it's wrong. I just don't think it's *as wrong as the other alternatives.
lauriellen
This sounds pretty reasonable to me, but as others have pointed out, we can't really plan what we would do, or know for sure what we would do. But God does know, and that's the important thing. Therefore I hope I would spend less time fretting over how much force I'd use to protect my wife, and more time asking God to lead me in the paths of righteousness.
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Just a thought...
Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mark 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Even thinking on those things is evil, Oh who will save me from the wretched man that I am? Thanks be to God that when his righteous judgements are in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness!!!
Father open the eyes and ears of our hearts and anoint our understanding that we may behold thy Glory and by beholding your Glory we may be changed in to your imagine, In Jesus Name
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Here is what it all boils down to for me. We're all trying to walk this walk but our life experiences are so different that we see things through different glasses. If one has lived in urban or suburban areas all their lives the only thing they hear about guns is negative. The daily parade of carnage goes on and on and more and more [especially young people] are slaughtered. However, if you lived and were brought up in a rural area your outlook would be quite a bit different.
Take the following items. A gun, axe, chain saw, knife, crowbar, socket wrench and screw driver. What do all of these have in common? They are all tools which can be used for good or evil. A inanimate tool in and of itself is amoral. It is neither good or evil but can be used for good or evil. Some will disagree with that statement. Some would say well yes, I understand that an axe can be used to cut firewood but also hurt someone. A knife can be used to cut trim or cut my meat but can also be used for evil. I know what crowbars, socket wrenches and screw drivers are used for and I suppose they could also be used to maim so I can see that all these have potential for good and evil but you've lost me with a gun. How can a gun be used for good?
Well, if your rural you would understand that the gun can be used to feed my family and put food on the table. Most of you eat meat. Somebody has to kill and butcher that cow or pig you consume. You might keep your hands clean but somebody has to do it for you. A gun can also be used to protect my livestock or pets from wolves or coyotes or to scare a bear away in the middle of the night. There are also those who do use them for sporting purposes and enjoy skeet shooting. My older brother has told me the story before how he was on the high school skeet team and would walk into his school with his shotgun and put it in his unlocked locker during class. Other times he would leave it in his car. Nobody had to worry about school place violence and the worse it got back then was the very rare after school fight by a couple of boys trying to prove how tough they were. And although the media is loath to report it there are also times that firearms have prevented violence by being a deterrent to evil. To me with my life experiences it's a simple tool and one that I have never used for evil. I own several firearms but I think I've only opened my gun locker up once this year several months ago to make sure they were oiled.
I've touched on before the opinion that many have that having a firearm is showing a lack of faith in God's provision for your safety. By the same token many of the same see nothing wrong with having health insurance, a pension plan, a savings account, various stock investments, ect. They have no problem with going to a doctor when they are sick, ect. When questioned about it they would simply reply that having these things are simply prudent and being a good steward. They would say that God can heal supernaturally but that he can also choose to use a doctor, medicines or even have the body heal itself naturally. They might also say that God expects them to do what they can with what they've been entrusted with and that is simply a part of walking out your faith and not remaining static. One can have all the faith in the world but God still expects you to work as well. Faith and works goes together...they are not mutually exclusive.
I am able to respect the opinions of those that feel that having a firearm is a lack of faith in God's provision if they also are willing to eschew the insurance, pensions, savings accounts, doctors visits, medicines, ect. At least with that one would be consistent in the approach. Like with just about everything in the Christian walk it comes down to the heart and motivations, and that is something that I am not qualified to judge someone else on. Indeed at times I don't even know my own heart and motivations. It is very possible for someone to be moved totally out of fear of the future and as an outworking of that fear they acquire guns, gold, money, various insurances and investments as well as running to the doctor every time they have a sniffle. On the other hand it's also possible for someone to have a firearm, perhaps a bank account and a few investments, maybe some insurance and see a doctor occasionally but yet do so in complete faith in God's provision for you. If having access to any of these things to you shows a lack of faith then for you it is a lack of faith. To our own master we stand or we fall. And thank God he is able to make us stand!
Blessings to all.....
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Hi Arion,
I understand what you are saying and think you make very good points to consider. However, I do not see how you can compare insurance, stocks, gold, bank accounts, doctors etc. to the use of guns. Everything you listed does no harm to another person only a gun has that potential. I have not problem with gun ownership for a number of reason you cited, however I do not believe we should harm another individual using a firearm. When God brought me to the understanding of bible truths one of the first things I did was sell my gun. It was only for protection. It was something that to me did not need much thought or what if's.
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Last night about 3 am, the local band of coyotes moved in within 100 yards of our house, yelping, howling and raising cain. They snatch a few chickens a year from us. Our dogs naturally went crazy barking and soon every neighbor dog in earshot was too. I opened my window and hollered, whistled and tried to scare them away and quiet the dogs. No success. I finally got my .22 pistol and walked out on my back porch and fired off a couple of shots into the air. Silence. I couldn't help but think how this could be a parable for this discussion.
lauriellen
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Guns don't murder, murder comes from the heart. And how do I know? because I turned and I saw, and what did I see? I seen that I don't murder as much as I used to...
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Hi Arion,
I understand what you are saying and think you make very good points to consider. However, I do not see how you can compare insurance, stocks, gold, bank accounts, doctors etc. to the use of guns.
Doug;
I was really comparing a gun, axe, chain saw, knife, crowbar, socket wrench and screw driver being tools all of which can be used for positive purposes or negative. The part about the firearm along with insurance, ect as people were making the point that if you had a firearm that you were not trusting in God's provision but instead trusting in the firearm. The point I was making with that is if by owning a firearm is evidence of not trusting in God's provision then someone having insurance, savings, ect could also be compared with not trusting God and trying to do for yourself.
All of these things are heart issues. I could hear about the terrorist attack in California and out of fear go and buy a gun. I could also keep cash, store food, have investments also out of fear of poverty. In these ways I would not be trusting in God's provision. And yet someone else could have all of these things and not be trusting in any of them. What would be key for me is asking myself if anything I own gives me peace of mind. If having a gun in the closet gives me peace than that right there is evidence of not trusting in God.
As I stated previously with my life experiences and where I live a guy walking into the diner with a revolver on his hip wouldn't even warrant notice whereas in many areas of the country they would be running out of the restaurant in fear and the cops would have you on your face on the cement. To me it's a tool like a hammer or screwdriver. To you it was an instrument of murder and you felt that you had to sell yours. My conscience is clean and yours is as well. This will be my last comment on the issue. These are one of those things that nobody is going to change anyone else's mind and we probably shouldn't try.
God bless!!
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Hello Arion,
I said I would no longer comment on this issue but I feel there is some confusion taking place that needs to be pointed out.
I am of the same mindset as Doug.
Surprised with the comparison.
A doctor attempts to heal while killing a person in self defense does harm to another which we are told by God not to do.
Seeing a doctor, having insurance, etc... to me is more like 'tempt not the Lord (Luke 4:15, Matt. 4:7).' When you're really sick but refuse to see a doctor because 'God will heal me' then I see it as tempting Him. Yes God can and may 'heal you' but you don't know how He will so go to the doctor and don't tempt Him!
Owning a fire arm is not the problem just like owning a screw driver is not the problem. Killing animals for food , that too is not the problem, its doing harm to another man, your neighbor that is problematic if we are to try and follow after Christ.
" That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Phil 2:15).
God be with you,
Alex
Edit: Changed my post a bit to reflect better my intent.
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Hello again folks,
No argument for or against other opinions. Just a true story...
I began to have a serious interest in obeying God in the 1960's while employed as a City Police Officer.
I worked patrol in a City of 10,000 close to Gary, Indiana and we had just about the normal amount of crime of various types. Of course I was armed.
When I finally decided to take the admonition to do no harm seriously I thought to perhaps continue my employment while carrying my .357 Magnum WITHOUT any ammo in the chambers. No one would know unless I was confronted in an exchange of gunfire and then the true facts would be obvious.
So what could I say then? Oh, sorry, I had just cleaned my revolver and forgot to reload it.
Well that idea wasn't going to fly so I had to find other work. It took a few months and I resigned and went to work for Prudential Life Insurance company. Some contrast, right?
The final point for me was that the other officers on the police force fully expected me to be able to use my revolver to protect them if the need arose. I certainly couldn't do that if my gun was empty. So even if I was willing to put my own life at risk and trust God to guide my destiny, it would have been wrong to lie to the other police officers by pretending that I was fully prepared both morally and practically to perform my duties according to my oath of office.
Finally, I am fully persuaded that had I taken a human life in the performance of my lawful duties, I would have been readily forgiven by God upon sincere repentance at some future date when my mind was clear on the fact that for me taking a life was an error. It was an error because God would have and was I believe already working with me toward that end result.
One other similar point I would offer for consideration.
It is not a sin for a human life to be taken by another human being. Not if God instructs that it be done.
It all depends upon the attitude of the person who takes that life. If we believe that it is sin then for us it is a sin and we should not have gone against our own conscience.
Of course for those on the forum this is all colored by the understanding that we have that God guides our destiny whether or not we are aware of His providence.
If any would like to clear up that last statement please do.
Indiana Bob
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Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
We should realize that we are among a VERY FEW who are being transformed into the spiritual image of the Savior Jesus Christ and in so being there is no place for human reasonings, we are to have the mind of Christ.
1Pe 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
v. 22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
v. 23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;
There is only ONE Lord, ONE body, ONE faith, ONE truth, and ONE unity that we are being transformed into from our carnal worldly ways and ideas, into HIS way of a perfect bond of peace and love.
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
v. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
v. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
v. 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
This truth is not open to our human reasoning, it is according to the Spirit and truth, and Christ gave us explicit directions that we have recorded for us to learn from.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Something that came to mind is this;
Back when God was dealing mainly with Israel, or the Jews, he expected them to follow the laws and regulations that he provided by Moses. Every man was to live at peace with his brother, fighting Israel's enemies as God so directed. There where some born in Israel that were spiritually enlightened, but most were not and rebelled against God's ways.
When salvation came through The Lord Jesus Christ, and he was rejected by the Jews, God turned to all men, or the Gentiles that had previously been rejected.
Today there are a few that can accept the spiritual laws that Jesus set forth in the New Testament, but in essence the vast majority of the Gentiles are blind to God's ways in the same manner as the Jews that Moses lead in his day.
The battle today is a spiritual battle, not fought with the carnal weapons and inventions of men.
Joel
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This truth is not open to our human reasoning, it is according to the Spirit and truth, and Christ gave us explicit directions that we have recorded for us to learn from.
Yes, human reasoning can become a "stumbling" block when we fail to trust and believe God's word.
Prov 3:5-7 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil."
John 16:1 - "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye may not be caused to stumble."
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Hello Everybody
I have followed this thread right from the start; it began with reference to the very last part of Ray’s bible study in Mobile http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-3-06MobileConf.7.mp3 .
On inspection, the study concluded with Ray making reference to the Sermon on the Mount and addressing the sub-topic of becoming angry to the point of harbouring murderous thoughts. Even though a person might not actually commit murder, nevertheless Jesus classifies that as breaking the commandment spiritually.
Quoting Ray, “if you want to know how you’re supposed to live, read the sermon on the mount, if you’re going to do the will of God”.
After outlining the “stages of anger leading to murder”, Ray went on to say we “try to cheat God”. Mentioning that a person might never think to have a gun [and think] that if an enemy approached he would NEVER shoot them….however he does have a Rottweiler….. Ray described that as “fooling oneself, but not fooling God”.
Ray concluded by saying that the carnal mind will devise ways to pretend that it is keeping the “higher commandments” - but it’s NOT.
I have asked myself, exactly what did Ray intend us to learn from his closing remarks? I feel that it all boils down to a matter of trust….how far do we allow ourselves to have utter confidence that God is in charge of every aspect of our lives? Or better put, to what degree is the spirit of God working in us, causing us be desirous and determined to follow what we read in scripture, regarding our opinions and judgments? It is not “normal” for a carnal mind to trust implicitly in an invisible God…but having a Rottweiler as “insurance” is more real to most folk than placing trust in a protecting Spirit, which we cannot see.
It is a matter of conversion, to acknowledge that God is in control, as His word says – including where we may be killed, or die from disease, or from “natural causes”. One thing is inescapable - we all are going to come to the end of this physical life of ours. Sure, nobody wants that to happen “too soon”, but happen it will.
Eccles 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and an appointed time to every purpose under the heaven:
An appointed time to be born, and an appointed time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
No matter how we die, it is not going to come as any great surprise to God, who measures our days.
As I “race” toward 79, I am becoming more and more aware that “time is running out” - as it will for each one of us, as we age.
I view and hear of the escalating traumas that this whole world is experiencing, and a heightened level of apprehension will make many folk determined to keep an arsenal – and not just a Rottweiler - to ward off any enemy who might wish to cut short their lives. I read many prognostications of a coming war on our soil…not way off on the other side of the globe…and whether they are entirely accurate with their timing or not is not important. The fact is, preparations are well under way for that expected conflict and misery, which are being revealed by some whistle-blowers - despite all the war-preparations being conducted in secrecy with other governments.
There is/will be propaganda which will cause folk to become “more than a little anxious” and it will test the faith/confidence of many, including those of us who claim we believe that God is the supreme authority, despite the fact that He is invisible - not like an AK47 assault rifle, or a Rottweiler.
This is what I feel Ray was driving at. When the time comes and our nations are on a war-footing, will we be looking towards physical defences, or will we be faithful toward the One we claim to believe in and trust? Even though we might be killed before we live out an expected life-span, God has the power to resurrect and use His chosen ones in the next phase of His grand plan for humanity? God knows who are included in that group.
When we read of the experiences documented in scripture of how God protected some and yet others were allowed to be killed, can we accept that it is God who “calls the shots”? We are not to be the ones firing them.
Last night I was violently ill (cause undetermined, but suspect food poison?) and I had to accept the fact that I could choke on my own vomit, if last night were to be my final moments. Thoughts of what might be “up ahead on the world scene” were irrelevant; the realty of my predicament completely displaced them. Now that I have recovered, thankfully, I can once again agonise over the brutality I hear on the news and know that “things must run their course”. Satan has his “allocated time span”. And unconverted men will do awful things.
In my role as volunteer towards helping people at the end of their life, where not one of them has a clue about what lies ahead for them (nor would they be interested in asking), I hear tell that some are totally convinced that a “mate “who has died some time ago has “promised to keep a place in paradise for them, so they can enjoy being together again”….this fantasy is what “keeps them going” through all their pain and misery.
What gratitude they will be able to feel, when “all is revealed” and all their present aspirations will be shown to be deceit.
We, on the other hand, have been blessed to have the outline now of what God will do; we don’t rely on fables.
It’s a matter of the strength of Jesus’ faith given to us, to encourage us as we strive to see things from God’s point of view; that is what “keeps us going”, as it did for the apostle Paul.
This thread has taken a few twists and turns from how it began, but has provided an opportunity to discuss and weigh up the scriptural points raised. It is not an easy thing to get to the heart of the Sermon on the Mount and be able to comprehend fully the spiritual level of the law.
When it comes to whether or not I would physically intervene in a threatening confrontation is a decision I hope I never have to make.
Ray said the same kind of thing - quote: “I suppose you can have ups and downs – I haven’t had any real downs since God has let me have dominion over sin, rather than sin have dominion over me…..I have not gone “down in the doldrums” and spiritually thought “woe is me” - I just haven’t and I hope I never do”.
This was before Ray underwent the last agonising years suffering from cancer. He remained steadfast to the end, setting an example. Yes, he tried certain treatment to extend his life, so that he could and did serve the brethren as long as he could and God would let him.
Ray received many nasty emails and in refuting the errors contained in them, he always said he did not hate the detractors….his job, he felt, was to expose them. It would have been quite easy to have built up some hatred, and to have succumbed to that sin - but the truth, which he shared with us, gave him the ability to see through their antagonism and to know, as Ray wrote finally – see Why Does God Love Us - that God will convert and embrace them all - as part of His family….however long that may take.
That’s the vision I ask for to keep me focused. Colin
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Thanks for posting Colin. I hope no one takes this the wrong way, I mean it with the utmost sincerity and respect... But I really like hearing from old folks. There's a perspective and patience that comes off in posts like Colin's and Ibob and a few other members that really settles something in my spirit.
I suppose God can give wisdom and patience to us at any age but there's a fruit of the spirit that's evident in posts like Colin's that I'm sure matures over years of cultivation.
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Thank you Colin :)
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Well said and helpful Colin, still in the race at 78 years young.
I appreciate the friends who respect old age for the varied experiences it brings.
I have "adjusted" my views, understanding, opinions of several matters about life that folks who knew me when I was younger may not recognize in me today. Or better said, God has adjusted my understanding.
I mention this because I want to encourage the youth who share in the forum to patiently wait while God does a work in them. 8) the definition of youths is those who are not on Medicare yet.
Thanks again Colin and all those who contributed their loving thoughts.
I- Bob
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I don't know what my point is in this but just some thoughts or observations I've had when contemplating this topic of violence/non-violence...
Leo Tolstoy was a Russian writer around the late 1800's who wrote a great deal on the subject of Jesus teachings of non violence and the hypocrisy of Christians regarding the teachings. He wrote a lot about how patriotism, nationalism, etc are in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus in regards to non violence. I've read only one of his books and in it he says that throughout history there has always been a very small number of folks who've held to the teachings of Jesus when it comes to non violence.. I thought to myself "the elect?"
I couldn't help but observe that many people who've advocated the principles of non violence have been murdered. Jesus said that if we be like Him we would suffer persecution. The world will hate us. Mlk jr.. Bullet to the head, Ghandi.. One in the gut, JFK.. Done, John Lennin, Bob Marley etc etc etc. I wonder if the early church during the height of its persecution was a bunch of people who might have looked like a hippy movement of folks refusing to be violent? If one Ghandi or one MLK advocating non violence presented such a problem to modern day rulers, I can only imagine what an entire movement of people all spreading the doctrines of non violence would've presented to their rulers.. What a nightmare for a world that relies on violence in order to maintain its authority to have the light of non violence expose it's weakness!
I was listening to a podcast about the early Christian Era and some of the problems it presented to the rulers of those days.. One of the problems being, how to reconcile Jesus' teachings on non violence with fighting wars for the rulers. I couldn't help but to observe that Constantine supposedly claimed to receive a vision in the sky before a significant battle.. The vision was a cross and accompanying the cross were the words 'in this sign you shall conquer' or something like that. Perhaps this was a way to reconcile the early Christian church with the need to have soldiers willing to kill and die for a worldly kingdom and worldly authority.
I don't know. Just thoughts I'd had.
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Well said and helpful Colin, still in the race at 78 years young.
I appreciate the friends who respect old age for the varied experiences it brings.
I have "adjusted" my views, understanding, opinions of several matters about life that folks who knew me when I was younger may not recognize in me today. Or better said, God has adjusted my understanding.
I mention this because I want to encourage the youth who share in the forum to patiently wait while God does a work in them. 8) the definition of youths is those who are not on Medicare yet.
Thanks again Colin and all those who contributed their loving thoughts.
I- Bob
Tehee. ;D
Sometimes I feel like an old soul my self though the Lord has much work yet to be done in me. Truly, when we are weak, He is strong, my recent experiences have confirmed this to me. So I am grateful for the trials and boast in my infirmities.
I am grateful for all you old timers ;) , for all members who contribute, I benefit from these discussions.
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JFK and the principles of nonviolence? Really? He was probably killed because he was fooling around with the mobsters mistress or because of the Bay of Pigs . He was also a war hero . And a sex addict. The man was a mess.
Has anyone talked about Luke 22?
And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” 38 And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”
Of course I am aware that Jesus healed the soldier after Peter cut off his ear with the sword ( have you considered Jesus let him do it in the first place?) . But that was so nothing would intervere with Christ accomplishing what he came here to do. So in Luke 22 he tells them to sell their cloak to buy a sword! You have a sword for protection !
The sum of thy word is truth. We can't leave out the uncomfortable bits. And we all have to do what their measure of faith allows, because if we think something is sinful then for him, it is. The Bible tells us to take care of our household, so I will be defending my grandchildren by any means necessary. And believe me, my husband would not sit around while I was being attacked. I'm kind of flabbergasted that any of you think that is what is required fron you . I'm glad my husband is
Willing to give his life for me - and grateful. This is also called laying your life down for someone else- something else that Jesus taught.
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Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
When you consider all of the places Christ advocates against violence, these words of Christ are not to be understood literally, that He would have his disciples furnish themselves with swords at any rate. Note that He also says down in the next verses that 2 were sufficient, which would not be enough for all of them... were some not to protect themselves? It was obvious that they did not yet understand by there reply, but He knew the Spirit would come and give them understanding. Also He forbid Peter from using one a very little time after this, and yes He did allow it to happen as a teaching lesson to the disciples that they were not to use violence under any circumstances.
Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
But His meaning in Luke 22 seems to have been that wherever they would go and preach the Gospel they would have many adversaries coming on them with great violence and persecution (most of them died a violent death), so that ordinarily they might seem to stand in need of swords to defend themselves, so this phrase "one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one" is used as an expression (used then, but obviously not a phrase heard today) of the terrible danger they would be exposed to and not that they should use one themselves. Consider that there are absolutely no Scripture of the Apostles ever using a sword for protection or anything as He seems to instruct here, ever. This one scripture certainly does not override all of the many other Scripture where Christ spoke of no violence, not if understood in it's correct meaning.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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36 Yet He said to them, "But now, he who has a purse let him pick it up, likewise a beggar's bag also; and he who has none, let him sell his cloak and buy a sword.
37 For I am saying to you that this which is written must be accomplished in Me: And with the lawless is He reckoned. For that also which concerns Me is having its consummation."
Luke 22:36-37, Concordant Version
As Ray has explained, the word "for" is an important connecting word. It means "because" and it explains the preceding verse. Buy a sword, because I am to be reckoned with the lawless. He was not condoning violence; I think he was doing the opposite. He was saying that by having a sword they would be considered lawless (or "transgressors" as most versions have it.) This would explain why two swords were enough. As Kat point out, two swords would not be sufficient for 11 men. They weren't for fighting; they were just so the prophecy of Isaiah (53:12) could be fulfilled.
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JFK and the principles of nonviolence? Really? He was probably killed because he was fooling around with the mobsters mistress or because of the Bay of Pigs . He was also a war hero . And a sex addict. The man was a mess.
Has anyone talked about Luke 22?
And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” 38 And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”
Of course I am aware that Jesus healed the soldier after Peter cut off his ear with the sword ( have you considered Jesus let him do it in the first place?) . But that was so nothing would intervere with Christ accomplishing what he came here to do. So in Luke 22 he tells them to sell their cloak to buy a sword! You have a sword for protection !
The sum of thy word is truth. We can't leave out the uncomfortable bits. And we all have to do what their measure of faith allows, because if we think something is sinful then for him, it is. The Bible tells us to take care of our household, so I will be defending my grandchildren by any means necessary. And believe me, my husband would not sit around while I was being attacked. I'm kind of flabbergasted that any of you think that is what is required fron you . I'm glad my husband is
Willing to give his life for me - and grateful. This is also called laying your life down for someone else- something else that Jesus taught.
Great points! All of them.
As far as JFK being a war hero, sex addict, so on and so forth.. It sounds as if we could be describing King David, lol! Neither of which could be considered examples of modern day practitioners of non violence. I mean the office and authority of 'President' or any head-of-state, relies completely on the ability to use violence.. As I've said in another thread, without the threat of violence a law would cease to be a law and would merely be a suggestion.
JFK is a poor example when considering the doctrines of non violence. Actually all of the well known advocates (Ghandi, MLK.. ) missed the point of Jesus teachings as far as Tolstoy wrote. Tolstoy didn't just point out Jesus teaching non violence but also non resistance. He referenced Jesus instructions to "do not resist an evil person". Non resistance to evil. I wonder why Jesus said to not resist an evil person but later said to sell your cloak and buy a sword.. Like you said, the 'sum' of the word.
I'm a fan of military and religious history. The two are often inseparable in history. Relatively speaking... JFK wasn't a typical President. The US has been involved in armed violent conflict in one way or another for about 222 out of its 239 years or roughly %93 of its existence. It's economy, arguably, depends on war and therefore violence. JFK may have been a mess on a personal level but on the world stage, he was an obstacle in the way of a nation which wanted war.
He didn't avoid conflict completely but he did shoot down plans for large scale conflict... Operation Northwoods is one example. It's public record. Not theory but undeniable history. Anyone can read up on it for themselves. The joint chiefs of staff physically put it on paper and signed off on it! Basically the US wanted war with Cuba (Bay of Pigs as you mentioned), but they needed an excuse. The joint chiefs of staff came up with a plan which was rejected by the JFK administration. The plan was to carry out terrorist attacks against America and blame it on the Cubans... They wanted to hijack planes and explode them as well as other attacks, which would give the US the public support it needed for war... This sort of plan of attacking your own country in order to justify war against another country or people is as old as time. Didn't Nero burn his own city and blame it on Christians? Didn't they disguise themselves as Native Americans during the boston tea party?
Anyways the plan was rejected, war with the Soviets was also avoided during JFKs time, as was a Vietnam invasion.. JFK did not want war and his efforts to stonewall plans for war perhaps earned him a bullet to the head ... Or perhaps it was a jealous mobster.. Who knows. It's all very fascinating to me though. Very soon after JFK was out of the way the US was back to her old self and the Vietnam war would be under way. The Gulf of Tonkin incident would be the official reason for war... But years later it was admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin incident never actually happened. The world wants war and she shall have it one way or another. If one wishes to be like Jesus, well you will be in her way and she will hate you and kill you.
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In agreement with both Kat and Jesse. Consider this verse as well in the support of nonviolence for all who follow Jesus:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
God bless,
Alex
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Many years ago, in the Worldwide Church of God, we were pacifists and nonviolent, in the midst of the draft for the Vietnam War.
My ex-wife was worried about her safety if we were attacked and wanted to know how I would protect her. I said, "Honey, I'll take the 1st bullet for you, and the 2nd, and maybe even manage a 3rd bullet. After that, you're on your own." She did not appreciate my humor. Of course, most religious people cannot understand humor.
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JFK has a point,
Most "religious" people can't understand humor. Their great sacrifices in the name of God are way too serious to critique or joke about. (smile)
In my own case I suppose or I hope that I would take the first bullet for my wife, but even if she took a fatal bullet first her worries would be over until the resurrection.
Even though her life on earth would be cut short and I would miss her companionship, it would not be for the reasons that most of the world is concerned. Why, because they don't believe in a resurrection to life once again, they don't see death as a new beginning under the righteous rule of our Lord Jesus.
Besides all of that, God is able to protect us from every eventuality IF that is His righteous will. And if HIS will is that our journey is suspended for a time, why be concerned? Cast all of your worries on His shoulders and rest in peace. :)
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Really interesting largeli. It gives me hope that no matter who wins the next election that God will work His will through the weakest of vessels.
In regards to the subject of this thread - are you all saying if someone walked into your home and did harm to your family or walked off with your child, that you wouldn't call the police? I know its one of those pesky hypotheticals, but that is sometimes hard to avoid.
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Really interesting largeli. It gives me hope that no matter who wins the next election that God will work His will through the weakest of vessels.
In regards to the subject of this thread - are you all saying if someone walked into your home and did harm to your family or walked off with your child, that you wouldn't call the police? I know its one of those pesky hypotheticals, but that is sometimes hard to avoid.
Rose,
If you read the thread you would know what scripture and we are saying.
God be with you,
Alex
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If the One, True God is your God,
then you do not worry about anything,
like a baby in a mother's arms,
The Great God takes care of His chosen ones,
the righteous live by faith in the Power behind all things.
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Really interesting largeli. It gives me hope that no matter who wins the next election that God will work His will through the weakest of vessels.
In regards to the subject of this thread - are you all saying if someone walked into your home and did harm to your family or walked off with your child, that you wouldn't call the police? I know its one of those pesky hypotheticals, but that is sometimes hard to avoid.
It's really interesting that some just cannot accept what is being spoken of here... yet it's clear violence is the opposite of love and there are so many Scripture speaking against violence that makes it a primary teaching. Violence is an action that this world uses continually for many reasons, some of which is justifiable by this worlds standards. Believers are not to be like the world, but are now being "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29), our minds - the way we think about things must be "renewed" now.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
v. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
Christ NEVER used violence for any reason throughout His lifetime or the Scripture would not be true.
Isa 53:9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
There was even an incident where Jesus was attacked by an angry crowd, and did He fight back to protect Himself? No, He merely walked away from them.
Luke 4:24 Then He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country.
v. 25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land;
v. 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
v. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian."
v. 28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
v. 29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff.
v. 30 Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way.
There is absolutely no Scripture account that the Apostles resorted to violence for any reason and they certainly would have had plenty of opportunities, because they were beings assaulted all the time. It is interesting that there is not a single accounts of them 'fighting' to protect themselves or those with them, ever... instead they always were peaceable, as Christ was and preached peace, as Christ did. Yes they would flee from danger (Acts 14:6), but never resorted to violence.
1Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
If Christ's Spirit is in us, then we are being conformed in our minds to be like He was and taught the Apostles to be. It's hard to give up everything, to "deny" yourself, but to be a true follower of Christ that is the cost...
Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
v. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
v. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Paul says in the ESV translation, II Corinthians 11_ , " 8 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches." CLV says his "solicitude" for all the churches. I don't believe Paul is sinning when he admits this. Whatever it is he is trying to convey here, he is not trying to take control of the situation and not giving it to God, because he knows, "be anxious for nothing." Cast your cares on Him admits that you have cares and that certainly pertains to me and I venture to say all of the mothers here. And I would think most of you.
Our dilemma in this post is what we would do to defend the innocent, and perhaps to defend ourselves. I brought up the police question because I think it is disingenuous to call the person with the gun all the while condemning those who would use one . In this society we have our own 'guard dog' a three digit phone call away. This discussion, for me, has to be about the condition of our hearts, a condition of seeking mercy and living peacefully "as much as it pertains to us". The Concordant Literal says this; To no one render evil for evil, making ideal provision in the sight of all men, 18 if possible that which comes out from yourselves. Being at peace with all mankind,
I find it very interesting that Paul says If Possible. And that is the question- when is it not possible?
It is good to wrestle with these things. It is not good to question the election of your brother or sister while wrestling with it though, and I feel that that is being more than implied a couple of times. Maybe I'm wrong.
My last point is this: Dying for your faith, being beaten or abused or any way chastised because of who we are in Jesus Christ- well, that comes from following Him. I would not lift a finger to defend myself from being a Christ Follower. I am guilty and they can kill me for it, the way they killed Him. However, does the new testament tell me I cannot defend myself from anything at all, or that I can only not defend myself because of my faith? Now, there's the question. And some of us have a different conclusion to that question than others.
I don't have to agree with you on every single point in order to appreciate you, value you, listen and learn from you. And in the end we are all accountable to the same Lord and He will judge.
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Friends,
I am reluctant to reply at this late date when so much of value has already been shared. However, I will stick out my neck and accept the correction that may come.
I seem to perceive in some comments an assumption that we on the forum who may be some of the elect if God wills it to be so, have an obligation to measure up to a certain level of faith or to be subject to exclusion from the "body of Christ" in the wedding ceremony.
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For example if I should find myself lacking enough faith to stand fast and see the power of God in defense of my person and instead find myself taking strong action against an assailant up to the point of exercising lethal force in my own defense or that of some other innocent party, that I am therefore accounted unworthy to remain under grace in the eyes of God.
If that is what some are concerned about, I would say put that concern on the shoulders of our loving Lord Jesus who will in EVERY circumstance advocate for us no matter how lacking in faith we were under such a provocation.
Yes we do have to have faith and we need to feed and refresh it daily, but we are not the Lord Jesus and we have not the faith of Jesus within ourselves to the same measure as was given to him. We have only an earnest, a portion confirming the promise of Father God to His elect. We are weak vessels and God is gracious and knows our frame and desires to forgive us EVERY error and every falling short of the glory that is to come when His work is completed in us at Christ's return.
We have not been taught, "you are my called out ones, so don't you ever make a mistake again or I will cast you away from myself". Rather we have been taught to lay all of our concerns at the feet of our Lord Jesus and be reassured that God will complete a work in us for His own glory. All of our mistakes, all of our sins committed through weakness and fear will be forgiven as soon as we place ourselves at God's mercy and even that is God's work in us.
Of course we should continue to grow in grace and knowledge and in faith especially, but be reminded that God is the one working in us at His own pace and we are not yet perfect in faith.
Kindly offered, Indiana bob
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It seems to me that, especially here on the forum where we are posting and representative of the body of Christ to many reading, that we should be united in what we believe and present here.
I have been stressing, which was indicated, what I see in so many Scripture to be a basic principle, no violence... I feel that we should be able to agree on this. Now I'm not saying that we can be perfect without error, that in a situation one might err, but it's not for me to judge what actually happens in somebody private life... but I do feel we need to be united in what is taught in the Scripture. Our attitude should be to accept/agree with Christ's own words, though we all can and do stumble at times, what actually happens in our lives is a matter between us and God.
There are a few Scripture that have comments that are questionable and we are discussing those points, but that should not mean that we continue to disagree on the primary teaching we are discussing. Yes Paul had great concern for the churches/believers that he was getting started and he wanted them very much to be united in the same message he was teaching them.
Php 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,
v. 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.
v. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
v. 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.
I guess I get very serious when I see many Scripture witnesses on a subject and people seem to be looking for loopholes... forgive me if I am coming on too strong as to cause offence.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat,
So very well said.
We live in this world that we can't accept but we are here. God created us in His image but crafted a uniqueness in each of us.
Jesus was not vague with respect to how we should conduct ourselves.
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal." (John 12:25)
"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21)
Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness..."
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."
We could quote Scriptures for hours that show how Jesus perceived this world, and how He expected us to live but I think one verse in particular says everything perfectly.
Luke 23:34 "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
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Rose, I'm not going to draw the line on 'behavior' for anybody. Of course, it is all a matter of the heart. It's no 'loop-hole' for me to recognize that what Jesus said applies to ME. The Sermon on the mount is for ME, if I am to be a disciple. "If a man strike you on the right cheek" doesn't tell me in black or white what I am to DO if a man strikes somebody else on the right cheek, especially an innocent.
But behavior DOES spring from the heart. It's how we know what the heck is down in there, despite all of our justifying and intellectualizing.
There are many 'behaviors' that reveal the heart in this broader discussion, and I'm not talking about the behavior, necessarily, of posting a comment on the forum. Some people have an 'itchy trigger finger' with a heart that says "Come, ye hordes of evil-doers and I shall slay you in the name of righteousness as an agent of God." That's Peter before conversion. Some want to exercise their own 'wrath' and are not content to wait on the Lord, whose 'work' includes the (sometimes reprehensible) earthly powers that He has ordained for our benefit and is not limited to miracles. Though I certainly agree with Ray when he said, in effect, we don't know what God would have done if we step in front and 'do' ourselves. Some are so consumed daily by fear of unlikely events that they expose themselves to more likely dangers, both spiritual and natural.
As I've said before, I need at least two reasons to get out of bed in the morning. I certainly have more than one reason for not 'arming' myself.
This life is as grass. The life to come is not. Just me talking here, but I no longer want to live in a world run by and dominated by evil, and evil reactions to evil. Does anybody really think that those with such a heart will be judging the world in Righteousness? Yes, Peter drew and used the sword. Yes, Saul of Tarsus stood by the stoning of Stephen approvingly and ran havoc with zeal on the early church. Their sins are forgiven, but they did not continue on that way, by the Grace of God.
Still, even if we manage to 'do the right thing' always, if we do it without Love, it is worthless.
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Really interesting largeli. It gives me hope that no matter who wins the next election that God will work His will through the weakest of vessels.
In regards to the subject of this thread - are you all saying if someone walked into your home and did harm to your family or walked off with your child, that you wouldn't call the police? I know its one of those pesky hypotheticals, but that is sometimes hard to avoid.
I don't know. I'd do whatever God has predetermined that I'd do should a situation like this come upon me.
I look at this life and all the history of this world as one big parable.. Perhaps made up by billions and trillions of smaller parables. It's all one big story.. It's Gods story though and not mine. History is HIS-story.
In His story there's good guys, bad guys, heroes, villains, victims, oppressors, etc etc etc. all I can do is play the part that He's created me to play.
If someone broke into my house and wanted to harm my wife then perhaps at this point in His-story it would be me who is playing the oppressed victim... orrrr maybe He will want me to be His righteous hand of judgement upon this hypothetical man who's broken into my home and wanting to harm an innocent family... I don't have a gun and I don't want to ever hurt anyone but if God wants to use me as a hammer to smash an evil man who God Himself sent to break into my house so that God could smash this evil man by using me as the hammer, I may do the job enthusiastically! I won't know until it happens. But if He wants to use me as a tool in His hand to punish the wicked man, and then after He's used me as a tool perhaps He may turn next and judge the tool/me well what can I do? God is good and His plans for us are good!
I agree with you that especially as parents it is normal to wonder about situations like these. I would just advise that we continue to wrestle with God more so than just wrestling with the opinions of other people. People are dumb but God is wise.
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I remember my friend:at his house they use to have these security systems but still, his home was broken into and valuables were taken.
The most powerful nation in the world had built a defence they thought was unbreachable but still,the defence was breached.
Weird though,we spend tons of money on building a defence but still our homes are broken into!
Guess that is a defence built in vain!
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In all these hypothetical situation we can imagine, we are determining in our heart how we think about these things. That is what God is interested in, not what our rash behavior might be in a sudden situation, but how we 'think,' what we deliberately determine in our heart when calm and collected. This shows our moral character traits, our attribute of good behavior/habits, that is what God is looking at and will judge.
Pro 16:1 We may make our plans, but God has the last word.
v. 2 You may think everything you do is right, but the LORD judges your motives. (GNB)
Jer 17:10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
v. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
We most likely will never have a home invasion, but if we have harbored up a desire to kill IF it should come, God will judge that attitude. I'm just trying to say we need to view things in a different light than the world does and it starts with how we think, our attitude in our heart.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
v. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
v. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you again Kat :)
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Kat, they are beautiful verses.
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In all these hypothetical situation we can imagine, we are determining in our heart how we think about these things. That is what God is interested in, not what our rash behavior might be in a sudden situation, but how we 'think,' what we deliberately determine in our heart when calm and collected. This shows our moral character traits, our attribute of good behavior/habits, that is what God is looking at and will judge.
Thanks Kat, excellent point. Just like if a man resists committing the physical act of adultery, if he thinks about it and wants to do it, he will still be judged for it (Matt. 5:27-28).
It works the other way too, on the "positive" side. There may be some here who really would like to give to this ministry but can't, because of commitments to family, the government, etc. But I think if they truly want to and wish they could, God sees that and judges what is in their hearts. He knows our situations and whether we can or cannot give; he looks at the heart and intentions (1 Sam. 16:7).