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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Kat on May 20, 2011, 04:49:38 PM
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This is a email response from Ray on a few questions that I sent to him a short time ago (about a month or so). Ray's comments will be in blue.
Dear Kathy: You don't ever need to apologize for writing to me or taking up my time. That's what I'm here for.
Let me make a few COMMENTS.......in your email.
Hi Ray, I hope this is a good day for you. I have been thinking a lot about the things you brought out in the last Bible study, really interesting stuff. I thought an email might be the best way to ask you about this, of course only if you feel like looking at it. I know you are studying this subject of 'the Father' and what He is and all, so it would not hurt my feelings at all if you do not feel like you can't go into this right now or do not have the time. But I will present this and if you find any point worth commenting on that would be nice.
I will start with this Scripture.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
I understand that we have not heard the Father's voice, yet many did hear Christ and He represented the Father completely and was "the Word of God."
Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
So is it wrong to think that when we hear Christ we are hearing the Father? Not literally, but in essence it is the Father?
COMMENT: Yes, of course, we hear the Father through Christ. Jesus is the "Word" as you point out, which is really the "expression," the "statement," and the "representative" of the Father. The meaning of "logos--word" is more than just a single word as we see defined in a dictionary, but historically represented the message of the messenger. Jesus is the Bridge between the spirit realm of God and the physical universe.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?
Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.
When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
COMMENT: How could anyone believe this verse and yet believe that Jesus was just a "lucky Jew" who was chosen to be the lottery winner of the universe! Just believe God, live a few years of a sinless life, and this Jewish man will be given ALL THE POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH FOR ALL ETERNITY! We should all be so lucky! Nonsense! No mere mortal could EVER fill the shoes of God the Father and be given control (including all judgment of all humanity) of God's universe for all eternity. Jesus Christ was a billion times more than just a mere moral man! More later..........
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?
COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.
Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?
COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").
So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?
COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27, And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.
Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,
COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!
so could it be that Jesus Christ was created to be the image of the Father to meet the need we (humanity) would have to 'see' God? So are we actually seeing the Father through Christ?
COMMENT: There is a problem here not only with tirinitarianism, but with most all other isms as well, if we try to make two Beings (or Persons, although I am not comfortable with the word person as its first definition is "a human being") out of the Father and Son, and that is, if Jesus is God and the Father is God, we then have TWO GODS and the Scriptures are plain that there is but "ONE GOD."
I use to think the word "Elohim" solved the problem, seeing that is plural for "El" which means "God" or the "Deity." After all didn't God (Elohim) say, "Let US...after OUR...." (Gen. 1:26)? Yet, but in Gen. 11 it was "the LORD--Jehovah, Jesus" Who said, "let US go down," not Elohim. Likewise, the Shema of Deut. 6:4 says: "Hear O Israel the LORD thy God is ONE LORD." It doesn't say that the "LORD thy God is one ELOHIM." No, it says "one LORD--YHWH." And YHWH is singular, not plural.
So according to Paul, the One God must be "the Father," not?
Didn't Paul say: "But to us there is but one God, THE FATHER" (I Cor. 8:6)? Yes, but once again, the sentence doesn't end there with a period (.), does it?
If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God, the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." Before everyone shouts "heresy," let me finish my research. What would happen if we were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )? "But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...." But wouldn't that mean then that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (the two of Them) are ONE GOD? Yes of course, isn't that what John 10:30 says: "I AND My Father ARE ONE"?! There's much more to this, but I will save it till later.
John 5:23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
I know that sometimes I tend to fly off in the wrong direction, so if this is just too confused then just forget about it and I will certainly wait until you complete your study on this and present an article. Thanks for taking the time though.
Kathy
COMMENT: No, I don't think you are flying off in the wrong direction, Kathy, however, there is a lot more to it. I believe that Christendom has failed to teach us what it is that God the Father wants and desires FOR HIMSELF. Why did He make a "physical" universe? Was it only to have and bring children into His Kingdom? We really need to reconsider how much was involved in God acquiring the Wisdom necessary to build His universe and create a suitable Family for His Kingdom.
God be with you,
Ray
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I eagerly await this study that Ray is working on. This has been a thorn in the flesh for me. I know the trinity is false, but the one teaching that I can't shake with study is Oneness. Granted, "if the Church teaches it, it's probably false." I have been waiting in faith for God to reveal it in His time - though my human nature can be awful impatient at times. ;)
Sometimes I've wondered if the "Let US [be making] man in OUR image" was the use of the "royal we." The royal we is defined as the first-person plural pronoun used by a sovereign in formal address to refer to himself or herself. The first-person plural pronoun used by a king or queen to refer to himself or herself, for example, "We are not amused," a line attributed to Queen Victoria.
This form of addressing has been used by monarchs when addressing their subjects.
YET - this doesn't seemingly line up with Christ's distinction between Himself and the Father.
Just a thought. However, as God gives me the strength and patience, I'm awaiting this study on baited breath.
Blessings,
John
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Kat,
Thanks for sharing this. Most profound. This subject that Ray is studying, Who and What is God, is the spear point of knowledge at this point in time. It surpasses all other current human exploration of knowledge. Why? All things come from God. If we come to the knowledge of God, all other truth will flow from this. "To boldly go where no man has gone before."
You should store this with Ray's other writings for ease of reference and not get it lost in this thread. Thanks again for sharing.
John
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Hi John,
You should store this with Ray's other writings for ease of reference and not get it lost in this thread.
That's a good idea. I will post it in 'Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings' under the listing 'More of Ray's teachings' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg59603.html
His response helped me a great deal, in that I had some thoughts that were just turned around backwards. I was thinking that the Father was just too great to take on the image of mere humans (so I was attributing His image to us), but in actuality it seems the Father is where this image/shape originated from to start with. Yes this study should be a real eye opener.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi John,
You should store this with Ray's other writings for ease of reference and not get it lost in this thread.
That's a good idea. I will post it in 'Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings' under the listing 'More of Ray's teachings' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg59603.html
His response helped me a great deal, in that I had some thoughts that were just turned around backwards. I was thinking that the Father was just too great to take on the image of mere humans (so I was attributing His image to us), but in actuality it seems the Father is where this image/shape originated from to start with. Yes this study should be a real eye opener.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Yes, the ramifications are stunning. I see where Ray is being guided, and it is utterly stunning. I don't dare give my own opinions. Much to meditate upon from your exchange with Ray.
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Why does an invisible God create a physical universe ???
I never asked why.
I never thought of how much I didn't think about the Father till Ray brought along these studies from 2007 till now!!
Antaiwan
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friend akira329
I wonder if we have considered that God may not be invisible in the spiritual realm.
We are told that God is not visible to our eyes which are limited to a fraction of "physical" radiation.
However, the apparent fact that God made humans to have limited physical vision
and not be able to see God does not prove that God is invisible in His essence.
This idea may carry over to God's shape. Why do we think that God needed a pattern in order
to build the shape of mankind? When God built the earth for MAN he planned for the man to have
mobility (legs, arms, fingers) and the five senses in order to be able to experience life or living on the earth and to learn
from the experience. None of this requires that God be restricted to similar limitations.
God is the ultimate creator, inventor, engineer and would not need a pattern to guide Him.
Just commenting on a thought that came to mind when reading your message.
Kindly, Indiana bob
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I have never believed that the Father and Jesus are one and the same. Hopefully Ray will shed new light on this. I think He was leaning towards these thoughts a little at the last meeting.
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Im calling it a night but I find the study very......thanks ;)
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Hi Kat,
Thankyou for Posting Your Email to Ray with subsequent comments, well appreciated. I read it last night at work using my Cell Phone. Much to reflect on and think about first before making an intelligent Post.
Don't want to just give opinion's and cause any confusion on such a deep Topic. However, thought it might be a good idea to mention the Main varying beliefs that were held by the so-called "Christians" in the Third Century CE. Only for the purpose of demonstrating how difficulty it is in attempting to ascertain exactly Who & What God is and What His Nature consists of, especially when examining the relationship between God The Father & His Son Jesus(Jehovah) who also possesses Full Deity.
I thought that Indiana Bob made a valid point, shown below for reference, as to being able to see God if one was in the Spiritual Realm, but unseen to those who live in the flesh.
friend akira329
I wonder if we have considered that God may not be invisible in the spiritual realm.
We are told that God is not visible to our eyes which are limited to a fraction of "physical" radiation.
However, the apparent fact that God made humans to have limited physical vision
and not be able to see God does not prove that God is invisible in His essence.
This idea may carry over to God's shape. Why do we think that God needed a pattern in order
to build the shape of mankind? When God built the earth for MAN he planned for the man to have
mobility (legs, arms, fingers) and the five senses in order to be able to experience life or living on the earth and to learn
from the experience. None of this requires that God be restricted to similar limitations.
God is the ultimate creator, inventor, engineer and would not need a pattern to guide Him.
Just commenting on a thought that came to mind when reading your message.
Kindly, Indiana bob
I will express My take on all of this when one of My Days off arrives, don't want to be too impatient & hasty, before making a well thought out reply.
Thanks, Samson.
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Hi Antaiwan,
Why does an invisible God create a physical universe
That's an interesting question. I wonder if it was because the physical is just temporary? I mean nothing that is physical remains permanently, but automatically goes into decay/corruption and is gone. We can see that He required that this physical world go through much misery and suffering (experience of evil, Ecc 1:13 CLV), so maybe it being physical and subject to being only temporary was why?
Hi Indiana Bob, as Samson said I as well liked the point about being able to see God if one was in the Spiritual Realm, but unseen to those who live in the flesh.
Why do we think that God needed a pattern in order
to build the shape of mankind? When God built the earth for MAN he planned for the man to have
mobility (legs, arms, fingers) and the five senses in order to be able to experience life or living on the earth and to learn
from the experience. None of this requires that God be restricted to similar limitations.
You know on this point Bob I was thinking kind of the same way too. But what I am seeing now is that I was thinking about it backwards or from my human perspective, instead of God came first and had already determined some things before we were even a thought in His mind. I was thinking why would God limit Himself to not be in the shape of a human, He is just too great for that. But when you start thinking of the wisdom that was used in the design of this image/body, so was the body designed so man it would best function in this physical creation or was the creation designed to fit man's image?
I think we tend to look at our shape/image purely from a physical viewpoint? But of course God was already in existence before the physical and if you consider that He does have a shape/image, maybe His image took eons (or longer) to develop into what it became? If you think about the face and the complexity in it's design and function and it is so expressive. The arms that reach out with hands that are so dexterous, yes useful in the physical... like someone talking or give directions using their hands? This image is a truly amazing wonder in it's design and performance.
But then when He finally created Jesus Christ and He gave Him that same image, HIS image. Which He then, I guess He gave it to the angels He created too. Then that same incredible and marvelous image was transfer to us, but in a physical form for now.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
I don't think even the myriads of angels all look exactly the same, that would just be boring. You know I think our image and likeness would also carrier over even when we are changed into a spiritual being, so that you would resemble yourself and other people would recognize us :D
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Too deep for just one reading! Wow
A friend of mine mentioned how she probably gives God a headache every time she prays.
Showed me how intrenched most of the world is that God is "like Us".
I am still realing over the Prov 8 scripture that God "birthed" wisdom (Jesus) in great travail!!
So much more to learn!
Thanks Kat for sharing that w/ us.
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Hi Gena,
I am still realing over the Prov 8 scripture that God "birthed" wisdom (Jesus) in great travail!!
Just to give you a bit more to consider, when God "birthed" wisdom was that speaking of Jesus? Ray was asked just that question at a Bible study, here is an excerpt.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10538.0 ------------
but when He came up with the master plan He birthed it, with great pain and sorrow. That’s why He used the word birth and he didn’t create it. Before it was birthed it wasn’t here.
So God came to a time…Well you say, ‘if eternity is like a circle, where is that?’ I don’t know. I’m not saying that I understand all the mysteries of the universe. I’m saying I can understand the things that He teaches us. So if there was a time, if wisdom was birthed, then that is an event that happened some ‘time.’ Then there was a time before it was birthed that it wasn’t here. Then there was after it was birthed, it was here.
v
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.] No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom.
It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities. Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that. So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son? Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway? Where did He come up with the idea of a family? Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on. Where did He come up with that? Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens? No. Well then God came up with that.
You say, ‘no, God inhabited eternity. In eternity nothing changes and nothing happens, so therefore we existed and the universe existed before it was created. Because if He didn’t create it and then He created it, then something happened.’ Are we saying that He made it first and then it entered His mind what He did? Like He said, ’Oh my, look what I did, I wonder where that idea came from.’ It’s nonsense.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Abednego,
Well here is a Scripture that you may find interesting.
Mat 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This Thread gives me the image of a country farm gate being gently swung open to a flock of peace loving sheep guided to enter into a beautiful fresh field of lush grass, pretty flowers of perception, and golden dappled sunlight of an early morning, sharing and moving together to rejoice in finding the stream of the Spirit of God's Loving and giving heart ~ all opened to us through the guiding hand of our dear Ray Smith speaking to our Kat.
Thanks for sharing ~ :)
Arc
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Prov. 8: 15-36 is great reading. It is talking about wisdom but there sure are parallels to Jesus.
Prov 8:17...those seeking me earnestly to find me
:20...paths of righteousness...paths of judgement
:22...Jehovah possessed me..the beginning of His way, Before His works since then
:23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, from former states of the earth
:24 In there being no depths I was brought forth
:25 Before mountains were sunck, before heights, I was brought forth
:26 In His preparing the heavens I am there
:30 Then I am near Him a workman, a delight Rejoicing before Him at all times
:31.....my delights are the sons of men
:35..for whoso is finding me finds life
It doesn't matter to me really, but there are people who have found wisdom but not life....all this seems to be like Jesus to me and He was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
If Wisdom has all this personality, does Love also? Kindness or any of the gifts of the spirit??
I know Jesus grew in Wisdom...but the "wisdom" talked about in Prov. 8 is NOT our normal use of the word.
Hopefully, Ray will expound more on this.
I was at the conference and have read the notes and am still confused...so I usually move on.....I mean after all, I sometimes have a hard time loving my neighbor and I think that is Way More Important!
imho
gena
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God is light. Light encompasses everything that is good. Love is the greatest of all good. Grace is the greatest form of Love. The Holy Spirit is the embodiment of Grace. Therefore, saying that God is Love is true.
1 Corinthians 13:13 (Concordant Literal)
13 Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love -- these three. Yet the greatest of these is love.
1 John 1-10 (Concordant Literal)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the word of life.
2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us.
3 That which we have seen and heard we are reporting to you also, that you too may be having fellowship with us, and yet this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we are writing, that our joy may be full.
5 And this is the message which we have heard from Him and are informing you, that God is light, and darkness in Him there is none.
6 If we should be saying that we are having fellowship with Him and should be walking in darkness, we are lying and are not doing the truth.
7 Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.
8 If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice.
10 If we should be saying that we have not sinned, we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
:)
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Hi Kat & the other Responders Too,
Below are some Email Responses of Ray's, quotes from His articles that pertain to Who & What God Is in regards to The Father & Jesus(Jehovah Elohim). Ray's quotes are in Blue, I decided to exclude the part of these Emails that contain the questioner & their question to save on space.
Heb 1:1 God [FATHER], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son [JESUS], whom [JESUS] He [FATHER] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom [JESUS] also He [FATHER] made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who [JESUS] being the brightness of his [FATHER] glory, and the express image of His [FATHER] person, and upholding all things by the word of His [JESUS] power, when He [JESUS] had by Himself [JESUS] purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [FATHER];
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He [JESUS] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [ANGELS].
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Thou [ANGELS] art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him [ANGELS] a Father, and he [ANGELS] shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [JESUS] into the world, He [FATHER] saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [JESUS].
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He [FATHER] saith, Who maketh His [FATHER] angels spirits, and His [FATHER] ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [FATHER] saith, Thy throne, O God [JESUS], is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy [JESUS] kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou [JESUS] hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy [JESUS] God, hath anointed thee [JESUS] with the oil of gladness above Thy [JESUS] fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord [FATHER], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine [FATHER] hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou [FATHER] remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou [FATHER] fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou [FATHER] art the same, and Thy [FATHER] years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Sit on My [FATHER] right hand, until I [FATHER] make thine [ANGELS] enemies thy [ANGELS] footstool?
Hope that helps you.
God be with you,
Ray
IN REGARDS TO COLOSSIANS. 2:9 (FULLNESS OF DEITY)
Dear Markus:
First, there is no such thing as a "Godhead." It is "Divine" or "Divinity" or "Deity,"
and it means "that which pertains to God." God the Father lived and spoke and worked
in His Son Jesus. In his body, Jesus represented God the Father. Hence, he told Philip
that when he saw Christ he also saw His Father (John 14:8-11). "I and My Father
are ONE" (John 10:30).
God be with you,
Ray
REGARDING JOHN. 10:30(I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE)
Dear Peter:
You are arguing with yourself, and even then, not very well. I have consistently taught that "I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30). I state that in my paper on the pagan trinity.
You refuse to believe the simple meaning of words. Jesus never said: "I and My Father are the same ONE PERSON," now did He? Did He? Then why do you suggest that that is what He said or meant? That same Jesus also said that a man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two of them shall BE ONE. He did not, however, say that the two of them shall be THE ONE AND SAME PERSON, now did He? DID HE?
From my paper on the trinity:
Page 22, Paragraph 3: "Is Christ God? YES HE IS!"
Paragraph 4: "Is Christ worthy of worship? YE HE IS!"
Paragraph 5: "So Christ is called 'God,'
Paragraph 6: "Jesus IS God!"
What in the world are you arguing about, Peter? You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Ray
Dear Scott:
Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."
Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
God be with you,
Ray
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
God be with you,
Ray
Dear Darren: Thank you for your concern over my health (or lack thereof).
Your question may be "short," but it is not specific. I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."
You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning? You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed." Which is your question? Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning. See the difference? We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.
The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex: John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning. One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language. God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.
God means "placer or disposer." God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE." God the PlacER was never placED
So: "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ. Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray
BELOW ARE EXCERPTS FROM THE NASHVILLE 2007 CONFERENCE.
WHO IS THE FATHER !
Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father. No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father. He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement. I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own.
So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father. He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past. All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son.
“I and the Father are One.” (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.” (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)
God doesn’t change. When you have perfect character, perfect love, as Christ and the Father say that they have, you don’t change. There is no variableness of turning in God the Father and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jehovah Elohim is the Lord God of Malachi 3:6, which is Jehovah Elohim and just as much God as Jehovah and “I change not.”
Partly what Jesus Christ was doing when He was revealing the Father, was letting them know who He was. Before Abraham, “I Am” that was Me. What? Yes that was Me. Not only was that Me, but here, Me, the Christ, the Savior, the Messiah in the flesh, this is the Father. Everything that I say is the Father. Everything that I do is the Father. Then they started to understand it and believe it.
That’s why Paul could say that there is one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, of all, because he understood it, and they understood it too, at the end. You can tell by their writing they were beginning to understand it.
Hope this assists this Topic, Samson.
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Hi Kat,
Point of interest.
I think that you will find that "see the face of My Father" is just a Jewish or Hebrew expression for "stand in the presence of" or "have continuous access to" rather than demonstrating that God has a face for them to see.
Respectfully offered, Indiana Bob
Hi Abednego,
Well here is a Scripture that you may find interesting.
Mat 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I still need much study on this subject but don't we all? My question is, what would be the meaning of John 1:1? I need further clarification. The verse reads,
John 1:1 (Concordant Literal)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
" 'In the beginning was the word,' " - The beginning of creation or in the beginning as in always has existed with the Father? I believe that it's indeed the former.
" 'and the word was toward God,' " - God in this part of the verse refers to the Father.
" 'and God was the word.' " - I've come to the conclusion that the Father is the Word or Logos as it is in Greek and so is the Son. Thus the unity of the Father and the Son. The Father and The Holy Spirit must have always existed, however, God created Jesus before the creation of the heavens and the earth. God created Jesus to be in unity with Him, to create the heavens and the earth with Him, to set forth His plan. These are a few reasons though I'm sure that there are more. Is it possible that the " 'God' " in this verse is " 'a god' " or that the Father created a god to be in unity with Him? However, I don't think this is the case. The word " 'God' " here also refers to the Father. Only a bit ago I was believing that " 'God' " in this verse meant "a god", in other words a god was the word. Could this still be true? Therefore, I came before to a conclusion that in the beginning or before creation, He always existed with the Father and The Holy Spirit and both having The Holy Spirit. How then could Jesus have always existed? Remember, Colossians 1:15? It reads,
Colossians 1:15 (Concordant Literal)
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
Let us continue to study together in the unity of the faith.
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Hi HopeinChrist
You should read this quote, you could have missed this before you posted, to follow a post you should click on the topic and you'll get the various replies relating to that topic only.
Hi Kat & the other Responders Too,
Below are some Email Responses of Ray's, quotes from His articles that pertain to Who & What God Is in regards to The Father & Jesus(Jehovah Elohim). Ray's quotes are in Blue, I decided to exclude the part of these Emails that contain the questioner & their question to save on space.
Heb 1:1 God [FATHER], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son [JESUS], whom [JESUS] He [FATHER] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom [JESUS] also He [FATHER] made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who [JESUS] being the brightness of his [FATHER] glory, and the express image of His [FATHER] person, and upholding all things by the word of His [JESUS] power, when He [JESUS] had by Himself [JESUS] purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [FATHER];
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He [JESUS] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [ANGELS].
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Thou [ANGELS] art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him [ANGELS] a Father, and he [ANGELS] shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [JESUS] into the world, He [FATHER] saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [JESUS].
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He [FATHER] saith, Who maketh His [FATHER] angels spirits, and His [FATHER] ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [FATHER] saith, Thy throne, O God [JESUS], is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy [JESUS] kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou [JESUS] hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy [JESUS] God, hath anointed thee [JESUS] with the oil of gladness above Thy [JESUS] fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord [FATHER], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine [FATHER] hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou [FATHER] remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou [FATHER] fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou [FATHER] art the same, and Thy [FATHER] years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Sit on My [FATHER] right hand, until I [FATHER] make thine [ANGELS] enemies thy [ANGELS] footstool?
Hope that helps you.
God be with you,
Ray
IN REGARDS TO COLOSSIANS. 2:9 (FULLNESS OF DEITY)
Dear Markus:
First, there is no such thing as a "Godhead." It is "Divine" or "Divinity" or "Deity,"
and it means "that which pertains to God." God the Father lived and spoke and worked
in His Son Jesus. In his body, Jesus represented God the Father. Hence, he told Philip
that when he saw Christ he also saw His Father (John 14:8-11). "I and My Father
are ONE" (John 10:30).
God be with you,
Ray
REGARDING JOHN. 10:30(I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE)
Dear Peter:
You are arguing with yourself, and even then, not very well. I have consistently taught that "I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30). I state that in my paper on the pagan trinity.
You refuse to believe the simple meaning of words. Jesus never said: "I and My Father are the same ONE PERSON," now did He? Did He? Then why do you suggest that that is what He said or meant? That same Jesus also said that a man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two of them shall BE ONE. He did not, however, say that the two of them shall be THE ONE AND SAME PERSON, now did He? DID HE?
From my paper on the trinity:
Page 22, Paragraph 3: "Is Christ God? YES HE IS!"
Paragraph 4: "Is Christ worthy of worship? YE HE IS!"
Paragraph 5: "So Christ is called 'God,'
Paragraph 6: "Jesus IS God!"
What in the world are you arguing about, Peter? You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Ray
Dear Scott:
Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."
Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
God be with you,
Ray
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
God be with you,
Ray
Dear Darren: Thank you for your concern over my health (or lack thereof).
Your question may be "short," but it is not specific. I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."
You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning? You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed." Which is your question? Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning. See the difference? We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.
The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex: John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning. One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language. God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.
God means "placer or disposer." God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE." God the PlacER was never placED
So: "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ. Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray
BELOW ARE EXCERPTS FROM THE NASHVILLE 2007 CONFERENCE.
WHO IS THE FATHER !
Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father. No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father. He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement. I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own.
So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father. He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past. All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son.
“I and the Father are One.” (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.” (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)
God doesn’t change. When you have perfect character, perfect love, as Christ and the Father say that they have, you don’t change. There is no variableness of turning in God the Father and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jehovah Elohim is the Lord God of Malachi 3:6, which is Jehovah Elohim and just as much God as Jehovah and “I change not.”
Partly what Jesus Christ was doing when He was revealing the Father, was letting them know who He was. Before Abraham, “I Am” that was Me. What? Yes that was Me. Not only was that Me, but here, Me, the Christ, the Savior, the Messiah in the flesh, this is the Father. Everything that I say is the Father. Everything that I do is the Father. Then they started to understand it and believe it.
That’s why Paul could say that there is one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, of all, because he understood it, and they understood it too, at the end. You can tell by their writing they were beginning to understand it.
Hope this assists this Topic, Samson.
Also read this:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html (ftp://http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html)
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Thanks for the addition Samson, that does help to see where the Scripture are speaking of the Father.
Hi HopeinChrist,
Therefore, I came before to a conclusion that in the beginning or before creation, He always existed with the Father and The Holy Spirit and both having The Holy Spirit. How then could Jesus have always existed?
I believe this verse is speaking of Jesus Christ.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
So this states that Jesus Christ was created and was the beginning/first of the creation of God. So then God became the Father, because now He had a Son. If Jesus Christ was created and He had a beginning, then He was not always with God, just like every human being came into creation at their birth and did not always exist.
I've come to the conclusion that the Father is the Word or Logos as it is in Greek and so is the Son.
This was part of the email at the beginning of this thread;
COMMENT: Yes, of course, we hear the Father through Christ. Jesus is the "Word" as you point out, which is really the "expression," the "statement," and the "representative" of the Father. The meaning of "logos--word" is more than just a single word as we see defined in a dictionary, but historically represented the message of the messenger. Jesus is the Bridge between the spirit realm of God and the physical universe.
So if you consider that Jesus Christ is the Word/messenger/representative of His Father, it makes sense because He says we have never heard the voice of His Fahter.
John 5:37 And the Father who sent Me has Himself borne witness about Me. His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen,
The Father has never spoken to a human being besides Jesus Christ, so that was given to Jesus Christ to do since man has been on this earth.
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
P.s. Thanks Bob that is a interesting point.
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friend akira329
I wonder if we have considered that God may not be invisible in the spiritual realm.
We are told that God is not visible to our eyes which are limited to a fraction of "physical" radiation.
However, the apparent fact that God made humans to have limited physical vision
and not be able to see God does not prove that God is invisible in His essence.
This idea may carry over to God's shape. Why do we think that God needed a pattern in order
to build the shape of mankind? When God built the earth for MAN he planned for the man to have
mobility (legs, arms, fingers) and the five senses in order to be able to experience life or living on the earth and to learn
from the experience. None of this requires that God be restricted to similar limitations.
God is the ultimate creator, inventor, engineer and would not need a pattern to guide Him.
Just commenting on a thought that came to mind when reading your message.
Kindly, Indiana bob
Hey Bob,
I agree with you that God can't be "limited" or "restricted" to requiring a pattern for His creation as He is Almighty and His knowledge is Unlimited. That being said, though, I wanted to bring up this passage as it came into my head as I read your post:
Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
Heb 8:2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.
Heb 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.
Heb 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."
It appears, if I'm reading this correctly, that the tent which Moses built (and quite possibly all the other stuff they made, even the Temple years later?) had a pattern according to "heavenly things". I couldn't begin to tell you exactly what that means, just seems to somehow fit into this conversation.
What does it mean that the LORD "set up" this "true tent" which is a "heavenly thing" or something existing in the heavenly realm?
Are these "heavenly things" things that we can't see because of our natural, physical limitations?
Does this mean that in the Resurrection we will be able "see" these things?
Will we actually see with our eyes (the eyes of our new bodies) "New Jerusalem" coming down?
Sorry, Bob, not asking you these questions, they just kinda started flowing.......Alright, Ray, you gone and done it again...you got me thinking too hard! LOL.... I too am eagerly awaiting the completion of this study he mentions. Hopefully God will enlighten him with some answers that may help me and others with our newfound questions. :D ;)
Daywalker 8)
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I had a thought occur to me yesterday while thinking of this subject. It occupies my thoughts a lot. ;)
There's seemingly a problem.
On one hand, there's the Old Testament that presents "One Lord" and no one else. "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE LORD." Other verses state, "I am the LORD, there is none else." The Old Testament portrays only ONE Divine Being.
On the other, the New Testament presents TWO Divine Beings - The Father and Christ.
My thought was this: what if the answer lies within the Relative vs. the Absolute that we've seen in other areas such as where one verse will say So-and-so was righteous in the sight of God, but then another verse says No one is righteous. One verse is spoken from man's perspective, and one is written from God's perspective.
Just throwing some thoughts into the mix for discussion's sake. :)
John
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From Ray
Dear Forum: I asked Gina if she would mind me posting her email and my reply
on the Forum--she consented. With my reply to Gina, I have now given you (our
Forum readers only, as it will be some time before I do a study and paper on this)
the key to understanding just Who God is.
We will also delve into the "What"
aspect of God. All of the Scriptures must agree or we are not understanding or
teaching properly. I have said for many years that "Jesus IS GOD" (see pp 22-23
of my article "God is NOT a Trinity." But if Jesus IS God and His Father IS God
don't we then have TWO GODS? There is ONLY ONE GOD! Yes, this does
appear to be an unsolvable enigma, but it is not unsolvable. I have said and taught
further through the years that not only is Jesus God, but He is the ONLY GOD that
we will every truly know in this life. And why do I say that? Well for one thing, that
IS what the Scriptures teach: "And this IS life eternal [eonian--'And this is the
Aionian Life..."--Emphatic Diaglott." ], that they might know Thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou has sent" (John 17:3). Yes, it will take "aions/eons"
to come to know God the Father. It won't happen in this life. So what is the purpose
of us receiving eonian life? To come to "...know Thee the only true God..."
I am receiving emails from some who are trying to "beat me to the punch" so to speak, in
revealing just Who and/or What is our God. I have neither the time nor the inclination
to go through all of these emails to critique all these speculations, but I am sure there
will be some who will attempt to to get their teaching on the Forum before I do. I encourage
study and research, however, let's not be guilty of doing it for the sake of vanity. And this
is not to say that some have some truthful insight into this subject, but there is so much
more to this teaching that just solving the riddle of how the Father and Son can both be God
if.....I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities.
"Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God is ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4).
"I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word [singular] WAS GOD" (John 1:1).
"I am the LORD, and there is non else, there is NO GOD BESIDE ME" (Isa. 45:5--"none
else" ver. 14; "none else" ver. 18; "none beside Me" ver. 21; "I am God, there is none else"
ver. 22; "I am God, there is none like Me," Isa. 46:9; "I am and there is none else beside
Me," Isa. 47:Cool.
"There is none other God, BUT ONE...But to us there is BUT ONE GOD" (I Cor. 8:4 & 6).
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord
our God is ONE LORD" (Mark. 12:29).
As to how many "Gods" there are, there is no argument! There is but ONE GOD! I have
now given you part of the answer, but there is much to follow. We know what the Scripture
says, but how is it possible for two to be one God? There is an answer, but I would ask
that you reserve sending me either questions or outlines of your own personal studies until
after I have an opportunity to publish my research.
I am working on a write-up on what "herbs" I take, and just what many of these "herbs" are
that God mentions in the Scriptures.
God be with you all,
Ray
----- Forwarded Message -----
Subject: Re: I have a question
Ray,
It's about your post on the forum to Kat's question.
You said,
"If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God,
the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." ..... What would happen if we
were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )?
"But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...."
Why did you change the word "one" to the word "the"? Is the word "one"
also spurious?
Thanks for your time. No need to answer if you aren't feeling up to it.
Gina
Dear Gina: Boy you are pretty observant, Gina. Actually I did not intend to use the
article "the" at all, and I would shorten the statement even further to the lowest
number of words which would still retain Paul's premise. I just didn't want to try and
cover this teaching in an e-mail which will probably take a hundred pages. But let's
finish my thought, and I will then reserve further comment until I am ready to reveal
my findings. The King James reads:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom
are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8: 6).
Notice the lite face type added by the translators to make Paul's statement mor
readable. By taking out the added words we lose nothing:
"But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in Him,
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by Him."
Paul's subject in this chapter is "idols." So He is teaching Who the real God is.
Who is the "one God" of Whom he speaks? He answers: "the FATHER," followed
by a description of the Father's role in the universe, but if we take out the description
of His role we loose nothing, as the thought is the same only shortened: "to us there is
one God, THE FATHER. But Paul doesn't end his statement with a period. There is
more to follow. He also speaks of "one Lord Jesus Christ" and a description of His
role in the universe. Okay, let's leave out ALL the descriptive words describing both
of Their roles, and we have this:
"...to us...ONE GOD: the Father...AND...Jesus."
I am not suggesting that this is the way to study all Scripture, by taking out
words, but I am trying to draw attention to the most important words.
Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?
God be with you,
Ray
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Just when you think you have God all figured out, then He throws a curve ball. ;D ;D
Now, I'm thinking the 1st Resurrection isn't the end, but just the beginning. It will be the start of kindergarten.
In this life, God is just training the Elect to get along and be nice with the other children, and get potty trained. School starts on the other side.
At least it's not boring!
Amazing isn't it JFK? Curve balls are really getting to be like a maze for me....mazes can be fun...why, they even have them in theme parks and you have to pay to go in one..... ;D ;D
potty trained
Please! Don't tell me I gotta go through that again!! :o ;D
Grace
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Just can't wait for this teaching by Mr. Smith! Anyway, I'm gona put my 50cents worth here, after searching and reading all the scriptures on this post, I noticed the following, the "I", "Me", "He", "Him" refers to himself, one person, WHO or a WHAT. It is referring to a WHO, a personal IDENTITY.
I then done some research and came up with these quotes by great people in history, the (ibid., 2:1:1) after the quote I don't know. Some of these quotes dates back to [A.D. 80]
"Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is Creator, he alone is Father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist" (ibid., 2:1:1).
"Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them; and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).
"God the Father, founder and Creator of all things, who alone knows no beginning, who is invisible, immeasurable, immortal, and eternal, is one God. Neither his greatness nor his majesty nor his power can possibly be—I should not say exceeded, for they cannot even be equalled. From him . . . the Word was born, his Son. . . . And the latter, since he was born of the Father, is always in the Father. And I indeed say always . . . he that exists before all time must be said to have been in the Father always, for he that exists before all time cannot be spoken of in relation to time. . . . [A]ssuredly, he [the Son] is God, proceeding from God, causing, as Son, a second person after the Father, but not taking away from the Father the fact that God is one" (ibid., 31).
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God alone is not alone! ~ :)