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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 05:01:17 PM
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I would like answers regarding the Adam and Eve's story. I have questions:
In Genesis, God states he deems everything perfect. How can something fail if they are already perfect? God created a perfect world, He created Adam and Eve and deemed them perfect in every way. How can they sin if they are perfect? How can perfectness fail?
Why expect Adam and Eve to obey well if they do not know the difference between Good and Evil yet?
Eve was not warned by God not to eat the fruit from tree of Good and Evil, only Adam- Why kick her out?why condemn her and the rest of the females to have painful childbirth experiences because she disobeyed? You punish if they know the difference between good and evil, not before. bible states she ate it because she thought it looked good, pleasing to the eye to eat. That's the only reason she ate it. She didn't think it was wrong to eat of it because she doesn't understand right and wrong. she only ate it because it looked good to eat.
It is only then, After they ate the fruit ,they understood the difference between Good and Evil and covered themselves. Satan told the truth about what would have happened if they did. He told them they would think like gods, and know the difference between Good and Evil. God only told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. Satan told them in depth of what would happen if they did. It's like messing with creatures that know nothing of good and evil. Eve only ate it because it looked good to eat... soo innocent and she gave it to Adam because she wanted to share...
How can something deemed perfect fail if God deemed them perfect in the first place. How can they sin if they have no knowledge of good and evil? why punish them? Can you still sin without knowing the difference between good and evil and be held accountable for it? Unless they already had the understanding beforehand? My question is.. Why condemn them when they did not know the difference between Good and Evil?
It just doesn't make sense.
It's been on my mind and would like answers from the wise ones to put these thoughts to rest.
Many thanks to all who can help me with this.
Denise
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I would like answers regarding the Adam and Eve's story. I have questions:
In Genesis, God states he deems everything perfect. How can something fail if they are already perfect? God created a perfect world, He created Adam and Eve and deemed them perfect in every way. How can they sin if they are perfect? How can perfectness fail?
The scriptures never say God created a perfect world. God deemed what He created to be 'good' including Satan. Everything was good for it's intended purpose, not good in and of themselves.
Why expect Adam and Eve to obey well if they do not know the difference between Good and Evil yet?
God never expected Adam & Eve to be anything more than what they were: sinners. As Paul said, without the law, there is no transgression. One cannot be found at fault if there is nothing to be in obedience to. No one realizes the degree they need God until they fall hopelessly short of His glory.
Eve was not warned by God not to eat the fruit from tree of Good and Evil, only Adam- Why kick her out?why condemn her and the rest of the females to have painful childbirth experiences because she disobeyed?
Eve was not being picked on. She knew very well that she was not to eat of the tree as she told the serpent herself.
Childbirth, while extremely painful, brings a mother closer to her child than anyone can imagine. Something no man will ever understand. I don't think too many women would trade the bond they have with their child for anything in the world.
You punish if they know the difference between good and evil, not before. bible states she ate it because she thought it looked good, pleasing to the eye to eat. That's the only reason she ate it. She didn't think it was wrong to eat of it because she doesn't understand right and wrong. she only ate it because it looked good to eat.
She was tempted and ate of the fruit from all the sins of the world described in 1 John 2:16 (lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life). She knew the commandment from God to not eat of the tree but she was drawn away by her own lusts, as would any other person.
It is only then, After they ate the fruit ,they understood the difference between Good and Evil and covered themselves.
They already understood what was good (to not eat of the tree) and what was evil (to eat of the tree). What they began to realize is what it means to give into their flesh. That's why they were ashamed, not from a lack of clothes. They were husband & wife, they had already seen each other's privates.
Satan told the truth about what would have happened if they did. He told them they would think like gods, and know the difference between Good and Evil. God only told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. Satan told them in depth of what would happen if they did.
God told Adam & Eve they would die while Satan said 'you shall NOT surely die'. That's not teaching in depth, that is a bold-face lie Satan told.
They began to realize the shame of who & what they were...God does not feel shame for what He is. So no, that was another lie from Satan when he said Adam & Eve would 'be like God'.
It's like messing with creatures that know nothing of good and evil. Eve only ate it because it looked good to eat... soo innocent and she gave it to Adam because she wanted to share...
She was deceived, but still drawn by her own lusts. Accountable but not responsible...and certainly not innocent.
How can something deemed perfect fail if God deemed them perfect in the first place.
He never deemed anyone or anything recorded in Genesis as 'perfect'.
How can they sin if they have no knowledge of good and evil? why punish them?
Broke the commandment to not eat of the tree as well as drawn by their own lusts. But God didn't create them to punish them, but to teach (chastise). To conform them to His image.
Can you still sin without knowing the difference between good and evil and be held accountable for it?
Yes, we are all accountable when we are drawn away by our own lusts/temptations. No one is forced to sin, no matter how much knowledge they have.
Unless they already had the understanding beforehand? My question is.. Why condemn them when they did not know the difference between Good and Evil?
It just doesn't make sense.
Again, God didn't create the human race to condemn it, but rather, to save it.
John 3:17 God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
But God chastises every son (and daughter) that He receives:
Prov 3:11 ...do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction.
Heb 12:5 ...you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him"
It's been on my mind and would like answers from the wise ones to put these thoughts to rest.
Many thanks to all who can help me with this.
Denise
Read the articles on the site. It's always easy to see when a forum member has not taken the time to read Ray's papers. There are no stupid questions, but there are redundant ones which have been answered through & through in Ray's papers. I'm not saying that to be harsh, just speaking the truth.
If you truly want to stop 'wrestling' with these thoughts and beliefs, read the site and continue to ask God to open your understanding.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Help me work through something, if you would.
What exactly does the Tree of Good and Evil do to us? How does it change our nature, before and after you eat the fruit?
According to Genesis, Adam and Eve disobeyed God by "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" by giving into their lusts. It was THEN that their eyes were open, realized their "nakedness" and was ashamed.
My point I'm trying to ask about is... I am trying to understand the nature of the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil. It does not make SENSE. If adam and Eve know how to obey, They must know what is right, and what is wrong. Disobeying is a form of evil. They know it was wrong to disobey.. unless they disobeyed without understanding that it was wrong.. Im trying to figure this out... WHat is the nature of the fruit from the tree of good and evil? what does it do to us? what makes it different before u eat, and after you eat..
According to Genesis... before they ate the fruit- They were not ashamed with their "nakedness" but after they ate the fruit, They became aware of what is improper and what's not, and saw nakedness was wrong, and became ashamed.. proceeded to cover themselves. Unless, They use to have a glow that covers their privates and when that glow was gone, they realized they did something wrong and covered themselves..maybe?
Unless, they already knew the difference between Good and Evil before they ate the fruit, it was just a test to see if they can resist the temptation? If that is the story.. why call the tree, knowledge of good an evil? why just call it a tree with delicious fruit that is forbidden by God to eat? Why call it Tree that holds the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Satan even said the truth. He said the fruit would open our eyes, and think as like gods. Granted, he lied about the dying part, but he gave partial truth though.
Bear with me, more questions..
Was satan already branded a deceiver, at the time, Adam and Eve was in the garden, or was he branded a deceiver only after he seduced Adam and Eve in sinning? Here's another question in the same parameter. Satan was communicating with Eve through a serpent. Don't you think Eve would have found this odd that a snake could communicate, unless all animals in the garden can communicate with you back then? She didn't find that odd at all when they communicated.. Unless he was in the form of a person that was branded a serpent after the fact? You would be freaked out and run to Adam if an animal talks to you. Right?
Thanks for your help.
Denise
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Hello Denise,
As Marques has already stated, Ray answers many of these questions in his articles, especially in his Lake of Fire series. In Part 2, he specifically talks about Adam and Eve, and the whole Garden scenario. If I were you, I'd start on part 1 and read through it all. From the "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" to "Adam and Eve" to "nakedness" to "Satan the adversary" and the "existence of Evil"--all these are discussed thoroughly and with many, many scriptures:
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
Reading these articles will be one of the best things you've ever done for yourself; I speak from experience. ;)
Peace...Daywalker 8)
Help me work through something, if you would.
What exactly does the Tree of Good and Evil do to us? How does it change our nature, before and after you eat the fruit?
According to Genesis, Adam and Eve disobeyed God by "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" by giving into their lusts. It was THEN that their eyes were open, realized their "nakedness" and was ashamed.
My point I'm trying to ask about is... I am trying to understand the nature of the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil. It does not make SENSE. If adam and Eve know how to obey, They must know what is right, and what is wrong. Disobeying is a form of evil. They know it was wrong to disobey.. unless they disobeyed without understanding that it was wrong.. Im trying to figure this out... WHat is the nature of the fruit from the tree of good and evil? what does it do to us? what makes it different before u eat, and after you eat..
According to Genesis... before they ate the fruit- They were not ashamed with their "nakedness" but after they ate the fruit, They became aware of what is improper and what's not, and saw nakedness was wrong, and became ashamed.. proceeded to cover themselves. Unless, They use to have a glow that covers their privates and when that glow was gone, they realized they did something wrong and covered themselves..maybe?
Unless, they already knew the difference between Good and Evil before they ate the fruit, it was just a test to see if they can resist the temptation? If that is the story.. why call the tree, knowledge of good an evil? why just call it a tree with delicious fruit that is forbidden by God to eat? Why call it Tree that holds the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Satan even said the truth. He said the fruit would open our eyes, and think as like gods. Granted, he lied about the dying part, but he gave partial truth though.
Bear with me, more questions..
Was satan already branded a deceiver, at the time, Adam and Eve was in the garden, or was he branded a deceiver only after he seduced Adam and Eve in sinning? Here's another question in the same parameter. Satan was communicating with Eve through a serpent. Don't you think Eve would have found this odd that a snake could communicate, unless all animals in the garden can communicate with you back then? She didn't find that odd at all when they communicated.. Unless he was in the form of a person that was branded a serpent after the fact? You would be freaked out and run to Adam if an animal talks to you. Right?
Thanks for your help.
Denise
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Hi Denise,
I will explain this the way that I understand it. The story of Adam and Eve is a real literal thing that happened, therefore not a parable. God uses it as a type and shadow to explain about all humanity that follow right in their footsteps.
What exactly does the Tree of Good and Evil do to us? How does it change our nature, before and after you eat the fruit?
I believe this was a literal tree, but it represented something much greater and that is life and how we live it, good and evil. It was a test for them and it shows that as with them no human being can or will obey, but all will follow their own lusts.
Psa 14:3 All have gone aside, together they are filthy; there is none who does good, no, not one.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
All humans are born with a carnal human nature, it's not something that happens at some point, we are born that way.
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
So we 'eat of the fruit' so to speak, as we live our lives and experience good and evil. God has deemed it necessary for all humanity to experience this physical life to gain and learn from personal experience about good and evil. So for now this age is for this carnal experience that we all are having, it's for a backdrop, a backdrop of darkness. Only a very few are being chosen out and given God's Holy Spirit to have their eyes opened to the truth/light in this age.
Was Satan already branded a deceiver, at the time, Adam and Eve was in the garden, or was he branded a deceiver only after he seduced Adam and Eve in sinning? Here's another question in the same parameter. Satan was communicating with Eve through a serpent. Don't you think Eve would have found this odd that a snake could communicate, unless all animals in the garden can communicate with you back then?
Satan is a spirit and can not be seen, therefore God speaks of him in terms that we can relate to. Here is what Ray says about him.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ----------------
Is this really describing something physical?
[Ray's reply]
Satan is a spirit being, seeing that he has been around for thousands of years. He is called a devil, serpent/snake, dragon, etc. We are not exactly sure what a dragon looks like, but supposedly it is in the reptile family as are snakes.
Nowhere that I can think of, did Satan ever appear visibly to anyone. Therefore his serpent/dragon qualities (or lack thereof) must be spiritual. Satan is a SPIRITUAL SNAKE. He has the secret, stealth qualities of a snake moving unseen in the dark. Although he is "like" [in certain characteristics] a roaring lion, he is not a lion, but "as" a lion he goes about seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow up' as in 'swallow a camel']. Spiritually devour/swallow.
So, did Eve talk with a literal, physical, snake, face to face, in the garden? I don't think so.
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John 8:44 You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Satan from the beginning was created as he is, he did not turn into the devil. So it was not a literal snake, Eve was tempted and drawn away by her own lustful carnal human nature.
I think you are trying to jump way ahead on these things. If you really want to gain a good understanding of these things you need to read all the articles that Ray has written. There are bits and pieces all through them that you will gleem as you go to build your understanding of these things. Getting a condensed answer here will not give you all that we had to read through to come to the understanding that we have. There are no short cuts, the time and effort it takes is just a necessary part of being approved to God.
2Tim 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks for the link, daywalker-
I have read the Adam and Eve story in the LOF. Ray covers what God had in mind for humanity, not what Christendom understands.
But it still does not answer my question..
Kat- Are you saying that the fruit symbolizes a warning that if they ate it, they may have to actually experience the hardship, both spiritually and physically, even though they already have an understanding of good and evil beforehand but never experienced hardships associated with it? if so, that will make alot of sense and would answer my question.
If God intends them to learn through hardships, fine.. I'm fine with it.. but why put them in the garden... till they mess up, and then say.. oh you messed up, you're outta of here.
One other question is this... when all of this life is over... Do we lose the knowledge of good and evil when God wipes our tears and memory of our reproach on earth and we start over with a new life...or do we keep the gift of that knowledge of good and evil as stated in the garden of Eden or do we lose it?
Thank you all for your help.
Denise
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One other question is this... when all of this life is over... Do we lose the knowledge of good and evil when God wipes our tears and memory of our reproach on earth and we start over with a new life...or do we keep the gift of that knowledge of good and evil as stated in the garden of Eden or do we lose it?
I'll stab that question. Of course we will not lose this knowledge. It took much suffering and heartache to receive it, it is the hardest thing we will ever experience. We are being created in the image of God, He is birthing us. We will know good and evil and we will be able to righteously use this knowledge as God does and for God's purpose.
Craig
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Hi Denise,
Are you saying that the fruit symbolizes a warning that if they ate it, they may have to actually experience the hardship, both spiritually and physically, even though they already have an understanding of good and evil beforehand but never experienced hardships associated with it?
Eve eating the fruit was just one small example that was giving us. Eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolize living life. It was not a question of 'if' they would eat it. They did not already have knowledge, that is the way you gain understanding, by eating/experiencing life.
If God intends them to learn through hardships, fine.. I'm fine with it.. but why put them in the garden... till they mess up, and then say.. oh you messed up, you're outta of here.
To me the garden scenario represents in general what happens to us all. We are born into the hands of loving parents (like God teaching Adam in the garden), one day we go our own way and out into the world, away from the security of home. See the similarity? But everybody has to learn through error/sin, if we don't like the consequences, so we don't do it again.
... Do we lose the knowledge of good and evil when God wipes our tears and memory of our reproach on earth and we start over with a new life...or do we keep the gift of that knowledge of good and evil as stated in the garden of Eden or do we lose it?
Like Craig said, I certainly believe we retain our memory of this life. It is through these experiences that we learn, so why remove all these valuable lesson from our memory. The understanding of what we are capable of without the Spirit of God indwelling to guide us (dark backdrop) is a precious gift of knowledge that we will always have, so to be all the more thankful for what we have when we come to the truth/light.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Denise -
I believe the term used in Genesis is "Good" or "Very Good" and not "Perfect".
I believe God stated that everything He Created and Made was "Good" or "Very Good" in that it was as He Willed or Desired His Creation to function.
Regarding Eve, most would accept that Adam informed Eve of what God told him about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Eve's sin is one of "The Lust of the Flesh", "The Lust of the Eyes" or "the pride of Life"; and probably all three.
God made Mankind "Sinning Machines" so we would all experience the "knowledge of Good and Evil"; just as we all do in our Daily Lives - and the endgame is for each one of us to "Choose" to Do "Good" rather than "Evil".
You are correct that a "Perfect" "Man" or "Woman" cannot sin; which was the case with Jesus Christ - who was the only one "Not to Sin".
Regards, cheekie3.
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If God intends them to learn through hardships, fine.. I'm fine with it.. but why put them in the garden... till they mess up, and then say.. oh you messed up, you're outta of here.
To me the garden scenario represents in general what happens to us all. We are born into the hands of loving parents (like God teaching Adam in the garden), one day we go our own way and out into the world, away from the security of home. See the similarity? But everybody has to learn through error/sin, if we don't like the consequences, so we don't do it again.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Wow, Kat, those are some very good points you make! You just made me realize a connection between the Garden of Eden story and the Prodigal Son parable! I never before considered the similarities between them:
* Adam and Eve dwelled in Eden with plenty of food and security... just as the Prodigal son dwelled in his father's house with plenty of food and security
* Adam and Eve chose (willingly, though not "freely") to eat the forbidden fruit and be cast out of Eden... just as the Prodigal son chose to leave his father's house and live a life of carnal pleasure
* Just as the Prodigal son learned through the tough trials he faced that he needed to be reunited with his father... so also we learn through the tough trials of our lives that we need our Heavenly Father (as I'm sure Adam and Eve also learned throughout their lives after leaving Eden).
Anyway, just a few thoughts I had when reading your reply Kat... Daywalker 8)
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Isaiah 65 says we will not remember our former life, nor will it enter our mind.. Of course this is after the 1000 years reign.
Isaiah 65:16-18
16That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Genesis is defined in many languages as an origin, a birth, a beginning....Revelations is a book that focuses on what must be done to complete our spiritual development.
Many thanks to you all! you all helped put things in perspective for me. It does make sense.. Genesis is after all, explains our spiritual state in the beginning...untrained. Garden of Eden represent home and security... The whole bible explains our whole progress of spiritual development. It is like the prodigal son, returning home once we learn everything we need to learn... I look forward to that day when we can all return home. Of course as refined. I am also glad we will not need to remember the former life. It is traumatizing enough.
Denise
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Isaiah 65 says we will not remember our former life, nor will it enter our mind.. Of course this is after the 1000 years reign.
Isaiah 65:16-18
16That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
A better translation of verse 17 contains 'the former shall not be mentioned, nor come into heart' [Rotherham Emphasized Bible]. In simple terms, after God forgives, He doesn't continue to throw it in our faces. But He's not going to mind-wipe us.
Remember, no prophecy of scripture interprets itself [2 Pet 1:20, Prov 1:6].
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Isaiah says no such thing..pay attention to the words. And like Marques says check translations if something is not clear. And always find a second witness to any scripture we come to question.
Craig
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okay here's scripture from the Rotherham Emphasized bible..
65:16 So that he who blesseth himself in the earth, Will bless himself in the God of faithfulness, And he who sweareth in the earth Will swear by the God of faithfulness - Because the former troubles have been forgotten, and Because they are hid from mine eyes.
65:17For, behold me! Creating new heavens, and a new earth, - And the former shall not be mentioned, neither shall they come up on the heart,
here'es another, from Ecclesiastes. Rotherham Empasized Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:9-11
9 That which hath been, is the same that shall be, and, that which hath been done, is the same that shall be done, - and there is, nothing new, under the sun. 10 Is there a thing, of which it can be said, See here, it is, new? Already, hath it been, for ages, it is something which was before us. 11 There is, no remembrance, of the thing before, - nor, even of the things after, which shall be, will there be any remembrance, with them who shall come after.
Maybe he's just talking about the present time, his time. Maybe I'm wrong. throughout scriptures, you can find scriptures that God commands we are not to remember the former things, for they passed away.
Here's another interesting information I came across: Isaiah 65:20
I think he is comparing what it will be like in the new world to come, comparing it to this current world.
100 yrs. in this world is a lifetime to us, but in the new heavens and new earth 100 yrs. is like being a infant or a
child in the new world. Cool huh?
20.There shall be thenceforward, no more, A suckling of a few days, or an elder Who filleth not up his days, - But, a youth a hundred years old, may die, Yea a sinner a hundred years old, shall he accursed,
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Hi Denise,
Look at how the Good News Bible has that verse is Isaiah.
Isa 65:16 Anyone in the land who asks for a blessing will ask to be blessed by the faithful God. Whoever takes an oath will swear by the name of the faithful God. The troubles of the past will be gone and forgotten."
When we understand why God's plan is the way it is, we will not dwelling on the bad things that will be "gone and forgotten," but not erased from our momory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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okay here's scripture from the Rotherham Emphasized bible..
65:16 So that he who blesseth himself in the earth, Will bless himself in the God of faithfulness, And he who sweareth in the earth Will swear by the God of faithfulness - Because the former troubles have been forgotten, and Because they are hid from mine eyes.
65:17For, behold me! Creating new heavens, and a new earth, - And the former shall not be mentioned, neither shall they come up on the heart,
here'es another, from Ecclesiastes. Rotherham Empasized Bible
Ecclesiastes 1:9-11
9 That which hath been, is the same that shall be, and, that which hath been done, is the same that shall be done, - and there is, nothing new, under the sun. 10 Is there a thing, of which it can be said, See here, it is, new? Already, hath it been, for ages, it is something which was before us. 11 There is, no remembrance, of the thing before, - nor, even of the things after, which shall be, will there be any remembrance, with them who shall come after.
Maybe he's just talking about the present time, his time. Maybe I'm wrong. throughout scriptures, you can find scriptures that God commands we are not to remember the former things, for they passed away.
Here's another interesting information I came across: Isaiah 65:20
I think he is comparing what it will be like in the new world to come, comparing it to this current world.
100 yrs. in this world is a lifetime to us, but in the new heavens and new earth 100 yrs. is like being a infant or a
child in the new world. Cool huh?
20.There shall be thenceforward, no more, A suckling of a few days, or an elder Who filleth not up his days, - But, a youth a hundred years old, may die, Yea a sinner a hundred years old, shall he accursed,
Denise, it seems like you're reaching in trying to prove your point. Another word for remembrance is 'memorial or reminder', it's doesn't always mean to simply remember.
Read through the entire chapter of Ecclesiastes. All the works of mankind have been done before, not all literally but definitely spiritually in our hearts. The 'lusts of the flesh' has been in us from the beginning and will continue until the end of the age. That's what it means by 'nothing new under the sun'.
But do we 'remember' all these things which have been done? Yes we do, all the great tragedies in human history have scores of books written about them, memorials built across the world, constant reminders throughout society. But what do they profit us? We still continue in our 'lusts of the flesh' as if we have no 'remembrance'. It's because we don't keep these things in our hearts as a remembrance/reminder/memorial. God says there is no 'remembrance' with them who shall come after, they don't keep it in their hearts.
Everyone remembers 9/11 but few have actually kept that compassion they felt for one another in their hearts since. There is no 'remembrance', nor shall they be for those who come after [Ecc 1:11].
Marques
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God is in the process of creating mankind in God's image. Gen. 1:27 Or, in other words, God is reproducing Himself after His own kind.
One thing that is necessary for a God is to have knowledge of good and evil. "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." Gen. 3:22
Therefore, we will retain our knowledge of good and evil, which we learn in this life, the hard way, by experience.
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The nature of the tree is, "tree of the knowledge of"---good and evil.
Genesis 2:9
I don't see where it says they ate from the "tree of life" that was also there.
Rebellion brings judgement and separation from God's presence, Jesus dieing on the cross and our faith in him, brings us back to God.
We will remember that Christ died for us no doubt, don't think God keeps bringing up our past sins, where is the forgiveness there?
Roman's 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Something to ponder.
Proverbs 30:20
Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.
Only thing that keeps our sins ever before us, is not repenting. :)
Joel
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9 That which hath been, is the same that shall be, and, that which hath been done, is the same that shall be done, - and there is, nothing new, under the sun. 10 Is there a thing, of which it can be said, See here, it is, new? Already, hath it been, for ages, it is something which was before us. 11 There is, no remembrance, of the thing before, - nor, even of the things after, which shall be, will there be any remembrance, with them who shall come after.
Marques,
I think you are right, however we say things like this now because We tend to remember things that hurts us more than remember things that are good. We are not evolved enough yet. That is the problem. When the scriptures say former things passes away, we remember it no more... in the heart or mind, How can we be evolved spiritually if we remember sins of our own and others and still be stuck somewhere. We cannot truly forgive if we remember their iniquities.
I think what the scriptures mean is that in the next world, it will no longer be a priority to remember the former things, as it will be deemed trivial in the next world. as a heart that is pure, it cannot hold on to these things. as it is said in isaiah 65:20, a whole lifetime in this world is likened to a infant or young child in the next world... In this world, Can you remember the things that you do as a child or a baby? have you ever met a 4 year old that holds sin against you... not one. their heart is too pure. even though they experienced it, they don't hold it against you for very long because they love you more than the sin itself. it is not even a priority in the next world.. We may remember that we lived a horrible life, a life full of hardships, but that's it. It's trivial compared to what is to come in the next world. Jesus himself said we are not entering the next world as an adult, he said, we are to enter the next world as a child.
That's just my two cents. :)
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Sometimes I don't know if you are sincerely asking a question or using a question as an outlet to bring outside teaching. You never seem to take responses from forum members into consideration...you just go to another 'question' in which you spend more time explaining what you believe rather than actually asking anything.
How can we come to together in the unity of the spirit if everything's open to one's own interpretation? When everyone wants their own interpretation of the scriptures to be right, it creates division.
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I think here is a case where we need to keep in mind the greater, however. What is the greater? LOVE. Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. That verse is very powerful and almost shocking in its strength. It fits in very well with a preceding verse.... 1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Clearly, all this knowledge we are gaining, is suboordinate to LOVE. Incredibly suboordinate. Yet it is very necessary to gain it, this knowlege. Otherwise God would not of done all this, gone through all this effort and time. And the very great cost, both to Him and to us.
So, I think the answer is....the knowledge is necessary to KNOW LOVE in its fullness! But once love is fully known, it is so suboordinate as to be of no consequence, in comparison! I think to know Love in its fullness, we have to understand forgiveness, grace, mercy, courage, truth, sacrifice, and all these other components of love. And this understanding takes wrestling with evil. But the greatest by far is LOVE itself. That is why we are not too spend too much time and energy on merely gaining knowledge that we have, but how much we are acting in love towards our fellow human beings.
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I agree, Doug. Yesterday I was thinking that this forum represents the only avenue of fellowship for many who have "come out of her and be ye separate" from the babylonian church system. Sometimes there are some gems among the posts that inspire and spur us to go deeper. However, many times it seems to me that some are trying to score points for self glory, while others ask questions that do not appear to be helpful for spiritual growth. If we could be mindful of those like me who may not be so established and who are struggling to keep up, I think it would be helpful. On Ray's website, he issues an invitation to this forum. Let's always strive to make sure that our General Discussions are useful and helpful and that they point towards the Father and His Son. Ok I'll shut up now.
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Love toward fellow human beings is not the most important thing. It is the 2nd commandment: You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.
The 1st and primary commandment is to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul, and being. The scriptures say to love God you need to keep His commandments. Love towards God is obedience. To know God's commandments you need knowledge of what they are. So it all seems to go in a circle. Knowledge---Commandments---Obedience---- equals Love. Everything is One. It all starts and ends with God.
God has knowledge of good and evil. So must we. That is why God has created us as is. To know good and evil we must experience it (eat the fruit of the tree).
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Marques-
Sorry if I am confusing you with my intentions.
Believe me, I take all responses into consideration. I do. They all have helped me. There are walls already in my heart that I have to work at too.
I am hearing impaired. What I have is profound hearing loss in both ears. I learn by asking questions. I learn with observation of things around me. I learn through kinetic energy, I learn with my hands. I am very perceptive. I learn from circumstances. I learn from feedback. I don't learn by just reading without feedback. I apologize for that, Marques.
I feel you all are my family. I keep visiting bible-truths forum since 2006. It's the drive that God puts in me. I don't know why. I just don't learn from reading alone. You direct me to papers all the time and say, to read it and the rest will take care of it. It is not how I learn. I learn through feedback, discussions, etc. It is the way I am. My intention is to learn.. not fight against you. I may be stubborn at times, but don't you see.. I keep coming back. God hasn't given up on me. It is like he is saying, you can't leave yet.
So please bear with me. You may think, oh no, not another newbie to deal with and shoot them down. but I ask you this... Please have patience with me, as God has patience for me. He has directed me to your forum for many years, so there must be a good reason for this.
So, please have alot of patience with me.
Denise
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When an good artist starts out with his painting he usually already have an idea of how is it going to end, and every brush he gives is good. Sometimes while working on a painting somebody can come and say that it is ugly an imperfect because they think is finished, when in reality the artist is just starting out.
And if the artist is the best artist of the Cosmos, His final work will be perfect and every brushing that He is doing is very good for it's final purpose ....After all, WE are His beautiful workmanship...
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Coming to these room in the forum makes me feel little. So many good responses from brothers that take online relations as serious as they really are.
I will just add one paragraph, in case it helps building somehow,
When an good artist starts out with his painting he usually already have an idea of how is it going to end, and every brush he gives is good. Sometimes while working on a painting somebody can come and say that it is ugly an imperfect because they think is finished, when in reality the artist is just starting out.
And if the artist is the best artist of the Cosmos, His final work will be perfect and every brushing that He is doing is very good for it's final purpose ....After all, WE are His beautiful workmanship...
Deniss, you seem to have good speech and be trying to be honest with your questions, one thing I don't get is how someone can be reading since 2006 and still be asking about the supposedly ''perfect'' Adam and Eve issue, that is like one of the first questions that gets out when someone start reading or even talking about these truths. Perhaps, maybe lately somebody have come to you with these questions and you just wanted to make sure and learn how to respond to others more concrete...
Hey Moises,
I have been visiting since 2006 but not constantly enough. For the most part, I come back to visit alot though. I am known as Lacey23 if anyone remembers the last time I was here years ago. I have been going through alot of things, it's changing me and I've learned alot. That's for sure. As for word usage, sometime I confuse meanings of perfect with good. Talking to people like you, helps me realize it does make a huge difference. sometimes talking things out, discussing, etc, helps us realize more things than just reading alone. Thoughts are powerful tool. It makes us who we are.
God bless,
Denise
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Here is a bit more I found concerning Adam and Eve to add to this discussion.
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ---------------
Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.
It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.
v
Heb. 5:8-9 Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.
Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!
Humans cannot be spiritually perfected instantaneously, or by magic. Even the Son of God was required to be perfected [made spiritually mature] through "suffering." This requires time and circumstances--God, therefore, creates time and circumstances.
God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):
"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).
v
And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Here is a bit more I found concerning Adam and Eve to add to this discussion.
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ---------------
Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.
It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.
v
Heb. 5:8-9 Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.
Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!
Humans cannot be spiritually perfected instantaneously, or by magic. Even the Son of God was required to be perfected [made spiritually mature] through "suffering." This requires time and circumstances--God, therefore, creates time and circumstances.
God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):
"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).
v
And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Aren't those amazing thoughts? Jesus was made perfect. Must mean He wasn't perfect to start with. Jesus learned obedience through suffering. Must mean He didn't know everything to begin with. He had to experience suffering to learn obedience. So must we.
These thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.
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hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.
So true. Why is that so hard for them to grasp? It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children. Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected. Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience. Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way? Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?
Craig
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I believe that we will remember life on earth because we will be held accountable for how we lived it. (2) because the rememberence enables us to have grounds for praising God for guiding us thru it--and His many protections of us (3) some that experience the Lake of Fire will experience "deep shame and remorse" as part of their cleansing--according to Ray's articles. If they can't remember, it would be hard to be ashamed/remorseful. (Thank you, Kat--I learned it from your posts.)
If "lovedoneread" was referring to ME in "seeking vain glory and recognition" for my evangelizing, I suppose you are partially RIGHT but I get so exuberant about meeting people and sharing the TRUTH (and this web-site) that I have to rejoice by SHARING, and then hope people can rejoice WITH me, or atleast be ENCOURAGED to speak out for God's glory themselves. God will judge me fairly, as he knows my heart. All of
you are my family so I share my joys with you--and I chose the TESTIMONIAL site to post it as it was a testimony as to God's provision for my transportation against all odds. Enufff said.
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It's O. K. Duane. You're young yet and your spiritual family will be very patient with you as we learn together.
Ole Indiana Bob
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hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.
So true. Why is that so hard for them to grasp? It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children. Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected. Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience. Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way? Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?
Craig
Yes. Seems fairly straightforward. Jesus is the blueprint and mold for the 1st of the creation. Everybody else is patterned after Him. The Father seems to know what He is doing.
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No my friend Duane. I wasn't referring to any individual in particular. I was just commenting generally. My point is that we need to post everything we share with the motive of edification of the body of Christ - rather than self-promotion.
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I am sorry if my TESTIMONY on the TESTIMONIAL site sounded self-promoting, I was just sharing MY joy at having been able to share God and this web-site with numerous people in numerous places and situations. If this incourages OTHERS to "preach the gospel in season and out of season" to all who will listen then-- that serves the PURPOSE of my testimonial. Some have pm'ed me that it was an ENCOURAGEMNT for them to be bolder in sharing the word. (I intend for God to always be on the "tip of my tongue" replacing HIM with the many conversations I enjoy with strangers about NASCAR and local racing.)
I am not requesting that any B-T member "be patient with my ideas or posts" because I have already instructed the MODERATORS to "bleep" any of my posts that they deemed unworthy/unfit for this web-site. (They have--thank you)
As for my "young age" PLEASE don't tell AARP or they will cancel my membership! LOL
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Good on you, Duane. I wish I had more boldness in proclaiming Christ. As for AARP aren't they a bit pesky?:)
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hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.
So true. Why is that so hard for them to grasp? It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children. Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected. Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience. Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way? Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?
Craig
Yes. Seems fairly straightforward. Jesus is the blueprint and mold for the 1st of the creation. Everybody else is patterned after Him. The Father seems to know what He is doing.
Yes, John. I know that to be true. He is exactly the blueprint we need. He has been there once. So, he knows the way. Easily said than done but yes, We just have to adopt that blueprint into our being. Jesus told nicodemus in johns that he needs to be lifted up just like Moses in numbers 21 lifted up the snake to save the afflicted. People Will understand one day why it is necessary. We are all in the dark spiritually and looking for that light to lead us out. It will happen.
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hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.
So true. Why is that so hard for them to grasp? It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children. Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected. Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience. Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way? Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?
Craig
Yes. Seems fairly straightforward. Jesus is the blueprint and mold for the 1st of the creation. Everybody else is patterned after Him. The Father seems to know what He is doing.
Yes, John. I know that to be true. He is exactly the blueprint we need. He has been there once. So, he knows the way. Easily said than done but yes, We just have to adopt that blueprint into our being. Jesus told nicodemus in johns that he needs to be lifted up just like Moses in numbers 21 lifted up the snake to save the afflicted. People Will understand one day why it is necessary. We are all in the dark spiritually and looking for that light to lead us out. It will happen.
Hi Denise,
Just a couple of comments. You say, "We just have to adopt that blueprint into our being." We don't do the adopting. The Father drags us to Jesus without even asking our permission. (Who does He think He is? ;D) Then Jesus and the Father put their imprint on us. We don't have a say in the matter. God can be very persuasive, just ask the Apostle Paul.
Also, we are all not in the dark spiritually. To the extent God decides, some are coming into the light spiritually.
John
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Very good and interesting post. Thanks :)
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Thanks John! You are right. God does the adopting. Not us doing the adopting. Just pointing out that we will not be complete till we have the same mapping Jesus has. It's a long process, but maybe to God, we are still in the gestation period. Some are born early before others, some are born late but eventually everyone will be born. :)
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Yes, God does drag us to Jesus. But that dragging process, does not mean we are not involved! Here is an analogy. If you get a bad diagnosis, that you had cancer, would you say "God the Father does everything. Therefore I will not seek out doctors. I will not seek any medical attention. I will not change my diet. I will not fight this with all that I know in my limited power and strength If God the Father wants to heal me, or if Jesus wants to, they are very good at what they do. They can heal me. In the meantime, I will sit on this couch and watch TV, until God the Father heals me. After all, He does it all. I don't need to lift a finger" Is that what you would say? Somehow I don't see Ray acting with that attitude in his approach to His cancer. And God is really doing a great work in keeping him alive. But I bet Ray is really really trying his best. I don't like all this talk that implies we dont need to try our best. Just because God does the work, does not for one second, relieve us of our part to do our best with our whole heart, We are not to sit on the couch, and say "God the Father does it all. I am not going to do a thing. Not a thing to help others, to do good works, to struggle and pray for righteousness. Tp preach to others. To do the works of God" And if I am doing it imperfectly, as I do not see as clearly as Jesus did, while on the earth, God will help me see clearer and clearer, as I strive in all things to obey Him and His word.
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Oh Lord, not again... ::)
Please guys, cease and desist with the whole 'do something/only God does something' debate. If I see this debate again, I will promptly remove it.
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Doug,
:D Yeah, we may not have "free" will, but we do have a will. God controls the circumstances and gives us reasons on how we should deal with it. We just deal with it either wisely or the foolish way. That is why we are held accountable. Like if you have cancer, how will you react? That is how he gives you reasons and many paths on how to deal with it. You either do it the smart way or foolish way. Sometimes others's mistakes are used to teach others. Like that guy who was protesting for no helmet law but instead he died in an accident due to no helmet. It's all about cause and effect. With cancer,if God gives you a will and a reason to want to live longer. Of course this reason causes you to become active and fight this cancer no matter what it takes. If he wants you to go a certain way. He will not make it easy for you to wiggle out of it. He will keep you in it till he is satisfied with how things are. He has his reasons. It may not be just for you only but for others too. Purpose is to help you and others around you. Maybe God wants to see how we react under various suitations and how well we do it. I have not heard of anyone who has a great desire to live, not fight cancer at all. That is how God directs our steps. It's cool. If you have cancer, will you do something or none at all. Of course you will fight. It's in our nature to want to live. Maybe the suffering itself is what it takes for people to grow closer to God and others than no suffering at all.
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With God sovereign there is absolutely no wiggle room what so ever. God knows exactly what will happen down to the least detail. What is going on in our living out this life is not for God's benefit to see what we might do. It is always for our benefit, what happens is for our experience.
True we do have a will, but it's always caused to do whatever we do and the ultimate cause is God, because He has already planned it all out. Now of course we are involved, the causes lead us to do what we do willingly and voluntarily. Because we have a heart that is "exceedingly weak" it takes just a nudge (this world is fulled with things that nudge us in the wrong direction) for us to will and ultimately think, say or do sin.
all of us have to form a dark backdrop in this world, all of us have been deceived and went the way of the world.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
It's the way of this world that we will experience this evil and with our exceedingly weak heart we are quite ready to oblige. That's why we are accountable.
This is from 'The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' 15 - Part B.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html ---------------
The Scriptures have already concluded that man’s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so.
Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).
"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"
Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause?
"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).
"WITHOUT ME YE [‘ye’ means ‘ALL of you’] CAN DO NOTHING"
I repeat:
"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"
"WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING"
v
God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.
God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).
Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."
It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:
"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure’—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).
It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:
"Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).
v
You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…" This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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If you think, that I think that trying my best means that I do not believe in the total sovereignity of God then I am being completely misunderstood. Of course there is no wiggle room in the total sovereignity of God. Yet I will not use that doctrine, the total sovereignity of God, as an EXCUSE not to do my best and to strive and struggle and seek out God. Obviously my zeal to seek Him and serve Him and become more and more holy is OF HIM! But when the traveler is beat up by thieves and left on the road I WILL NOT GO BY AS A PHARISEE AND SAY OH IT IS GODS WILL AND I WONT DO ANYTHING TO HELP> I see so much written about the sovereignity of God, who can possibly disagree? yet so little on how much we are obeying, how we are being changed, doing good works, preaching the true gospel, giving of our substance...and I think some could use the total sovereignity of God as an EXCUSE not to try, not to work hard. God Forbid, that I will ever do that. And I will seek the First resurrection with all my heart, and by this I mean to be with Jesus, and I will not have the attitude that "well, it is a lock, God has decided who is to receive that, and it is useless for me to try or to desire such" By the sovereignity of God obviously He has given me this attititude and he has given others their opposite attitude. I just want to point out that one can believe in the total sovereignity of God and still STRIVE to please Him, still give great effort, grow in your desire for holiness, and have all kinds of zeal without letting that doctrine become a stumbling block to actually DOING good works. That in the actuality, Jesus is doing through us anyway.
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If you think, that I think that trying my best means that I do not believe in the total sovereignity of God then I am being completely misunderstood. Of course there is no wiggle room in the total sovereignity of God. Yet I will not use that doctrine, the total sovereignity of God, as an EXCUSE not to do my best and to strive and struggle and seek out God. Obviously my zeal to seek Him and serve Him and become more and more holy is OF HIM! But when the traveler is beat up by thieves and left on the road I WILL NOT GO BY AS A PHARISEE AND SAY OH IT IS GODS WILL AND I WONT DO ANYTHING TO HELP> I see so much written about the sovereignity of God, who can possibly disagree? yet so little on how much we are obeying, how we are being changed, doing good works, preaching the true gospel, giving of our substance...and I think some could use the total sovereignity of God as an EXCUSE not to try, not to work hard. God Forbid, that I will ever do that. And I will seek the First resurrection with all my heart, and by this I mean to be with Jesus, and I will not have the attitude that "well, it is a lock, God has decided who is to receive that, and it is useless for me to try or to desire such" By the sovereignity of God obviously He has given me this attititude and he has given others their opposite attitude. I just want to point out that one can believe in the total sovereignity of God and still STRIVE to please Him, still give great effort, grow in your desire for holiness, and have all kinds of zeal without letting that doctrine become a stumbling block to actually DOING good works. That in the actuality, Jesus is doing through us anyway.
Exactly. Either you do it or not, it's always for a reason. Never without. We won't do a certain something without a reason. This is how God directs our steps. He gives us a reason. We will never do a certain thing without a reason. Hard to resist that, right? Hard to wiggle out of that too. If you don't want to do anything and know God is sovereign anyway. God always give you a reason to do something. You will be faced with reasons that challenges your morals. Hard not to do something in that situation, right? We just deal with reason the right way. like Kat said, we are held accountable for our willingness to sin. Hard to resist reason when it is tempting you in the face but hey, it's there for a reason.:)
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Hi everyone
This is from Marques first response
Childbirth, while extremely painful, brings a mother closer to her child than anyone can imagine. Something no man will ever understand. I don't think too many women would trade the bond they have with their child for anything in the world.
That made me think of how we are now being "born" in a spiritual sense and the 9 months of painful childbirth could be compared to our lives now.With the end being so much better than the beginning. How difficult life is now it will pale in comparison to the love that is coming. The same way a mother remembers how difficult a pregnancy/labor was but would never take it back for the love she feels for her child.So we are being "born again" in that sense (but it is a process not something that just happens one day at church)
That is what I thought of, or remembered, when reading this post anyway..
Have a good weekend :)
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Denise,
You did start a profound study for which I am most thankful. Much good was derived out of this topic and this is why this forum is so much more than a Sunday School lesson or some loud-mouthed preacher trying to indoctrinate his followers. DougE6 really brought the close I needed in stating the total sovereignty of GOD is all controlling but our pitiful effort to try and please HIM is needed. I find that my effort to please HIM often has beneficial results not only for me but to those whom I may help in some small way. GOD does it all but HE does tweek me sometimes to do what I feel are special things that without this special tweek I would not have done. GOD is the ultimate cause for everything and for this I am most thankful.
In HIM, Phil 3:10
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Yeah, we learn alot through a hands on discussion. I learned a lot too.
I think this thing with Adam and Eve, is that men gained a conscience when they ate the fruit. What makes man different from all the rest of the creatures that God created: his conscience. God purposely gave man a conscience by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and have the serpent tempt them into eating the fruit.
Yes, they did disobey. But it was all a part of God’s plan so that they would become as one of God's. That’s exactly what He said: “Behold, man is become as one of us to know good and evil.”
just like us, and is able to consciously choose between what God establishes as right or wrong.
The whole plan from the beginning was to make man in God’s image, give him a conscience like God and make man one with God. This was even in Jesus’s prayer.
Joh 17:21 that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
What do you think? Do u think it is conscience that we gained from eating the fruit? That could explain our convictions when we do something we know is right or wrong?
Thoughts?
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Denise,
Something very profound happened as soon as Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden. Conscience is as good an explanation as I can think of. All of a sudden they were ashamed of their nakedness and the eyes of both were opened. They tried to hide from the Voice of the LORD GOD and when GOD asked Adam if he had eaten of the tree he did what most man do, he tried to blame it all on the woman. The curse to both the serpent and to man follows. Then the ability to know good and evil with all of it's ramifications is established for all mankind.
Of course, GOD planned this entire process and I am not certain mankind will every fully understand HIS reasons. As GOD'S finest creation mankind was endowed with a superior brain, creative intelligence, reasoning ability, conscience, and emotions unlike any of GOD'S other creations. GOD'S creation of man is beyond the scope of my imagination as well as HIS continuing creation of the Universe. GOD, HIS greatness and the wonder of HIS totality is in no way understandable to me. I just trust HIM to be everything, the all in all, and know that HIS love and mercy endures forever.
GOD'S plan for mankind is beyond the scope of my frail intelligence. Your quote of John 17:21 is as good an explanation as I can find in my study of GOD and HIS WORD, JESUS THE CHRIST. I am so very thankful to GOD for the gift of my conscience and feel it does set me apart from the other creations of GOD. I thank GOD and HIS PERFECT SON for everything, both good and evil, knowing that all works good for them that love GOD, who are called according to HIS purpose. Romans 8:14-29 offers to me the very best explanation of GOD'S plan for man that I can find in the Bible. Just knowing we are the children of GOD, that all children must grow in both nurture and admonition, and that nothing is able to separate us from the love of GOD which is in CHRIST JESUS our LORD is the best peace I have.
In HIM,
Phil3:10