bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: EKnight on May 22, 2009, 10:49:26 PM
-
I don't see the point in praying for God's will to be done when it's going to be done regardless.
However, if praying "Thy will be done" is merely an acknowledgment that God knows what is best, then I understand.
Eileen
-
Eileen,
Remember Ray says if you pray for God's will to be done then ALL your prayers will be answered! I like that! The answer may not be what we expect, but it will be done! God's will that is! It shows that we are submissive to God!!
Kathy :D
-
Eileen
A lot of the time when i am praying for someone are about some thing the Lord will let me know everything is going to turn out OK, it that's his will too,
I have allways felt the more i get involved with Gods life then he will be that much more involved in my life.
thanks Kenny
-
Hi Eileen
I believe prayer is part of the Lords Process through which we come to experience and know Him better. In the secular world communication is vital. In the Spiritual realm, Prayer is our communication to our invisible and present God that forms an essential part of our connection to our Father.
Ray expresses many treasures and shares rich insights in this subjuect. Here is an excerpt that I think relates .... quote...
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9177.0.html
Question: Why bother to pray if God's will must be done, and God never changes His mind about anything?
Background:
I'm on a prayer team at church, and receive dozens of prayer request each week. Am I wasting my time? Also, how To respond to the prayer request? (we send out acknowledgment cards). It seems pointless and rude to write:
"God has already decided if your (child, mother, father, spouse) will live or die. If your prayer is for what God has already decided, it will be given. If you pray for them to live and yet they die, it's God's will. Sorry, but I can't do anything about it."
Not very comforting!! LOL. Am I missing something? I'm getting ready to give up this ministry if my all prayers are in vain....... :-(
PS: LOVE YOUR SITE!
Dear Cathy: The Christian Church has so screwed up our minds, that it is almost impossible to think rationally if one is to cling to their absurd and unscriptural doctrines and teachings.
Ask yourself: "Have I or anyone I know ever fervently prayed for something or some one, that was a good and loving request, and yet God did now answer your request?"
Yes? Many times? Probably. But why? Why would God answering some benevolent loving requests, but not others, and certainly not all? Let me first make what I consider a very profound statement that I came to understand when I did a Scriptural study on prayer:
"God has never ever answered a prayer that WASN'T FIRST PRAYED!"
But the question remains: "Would God have performed that same task for you if you had NOT prayed for it?" He may have, but then it couldn't be counted as a answered prayer.
When God desires to do good things for His people, he inspired them TO PRAY. When you understand prayer, no prayer of yours will ever "be in vain" as you suggest. Yes, God exactly what He will and what He will not do in the next hour, day, or week, and absolutely nothing in heaven or earth will ever "change" that--God does NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, EVER! But we don't know what a new day will bring, and so we pray. Many if not most of God's ways seem strange to we humans. We are not yet on His level of wisdom and spirituality. God wants to hear from us. God wants His children to talk to Him about all their needs and desires. God wants to hear us thank Him for all He has given us.
It is not the least discouraging to me that I cannot change God's mind about anything. Imagine if God answered all the billions of prayers of all the billions of people around the world? What utter chaos there would be. God could never prophesy or foretell the future, as it would be constantly changing by the changing of His Own mind, answering all of those billions of prayers. Was Jesus perfectly obedience to God His Father? Did His Father "remove the cup" that Jesus prayed about? NO, no He didn't. Was Jesus' prayer, therefore, "in vain?" I think not.
If God has determined to heal or bless someone because you or someone else prayed for it, then you will HAVE to pray that prayer in order for God to answer it, and therefore, prayer is never in vain unless we are not praying according to God's rules. Hope this helps you a little, and I will pray that it does!
God be with you,
Ray
There are more very important and most enjoyably encouraging teachings on this topic and can be accessed at subject title Prayer http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html
Arc
-
I get so much clutter in my mind that I don't know what or how to pray sometimes. I pray daily, mostly just saying thank you God for all of your blessings, but even then I feel as if I'm leaving things out, but I acknowledge this To God and ask Him to lay it on my heart to pray according to His will and not mine, to help me pray in Spirit and not with my carnal mind.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses.For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Roy
-
Roy,
Here is a scripture that helped me with some of the same problems.
(KJV) Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(CLV) Rom 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."
-
Roy,
Here is a scripture that helped me with some of the same problems.
(KJV) Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(CLV) Rom 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."
So if I am inspired to pray for something, does that mean God will answer that prayer?
Eileen
-
So if I am inspired to pray for something, does that mean God will answer that prayer?
Eileen
No...prayer is all about having the will of God, first & foremost, in your heart.
If "His Will Be Done' is the greater desire in all your prayers, your prayers will ALWAYS be answered. Christ's greater desire in all His prayers was that the Father's Will be done, even up to death on the cross. That is how we are to pray: His Will be done above and beyond anything else in this world, including death itself.
It's about dying to self...we die of 'lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life' daily in the same manner that Christ died on the cross. And this includes in our prayer life.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
So if I am inspired to pray for something, does that mean God will answer that prayer?
Eileen
Hi Eileen,
I always look at prayer as something that we use to communicate to the Father with,kinda like a Spiritual phone,if you will.Sometimes we may get a busy signal and some times we will get through.The idea is not whether or not the call is answered but rather that the call was made.The call, none the less, was compleated from your heart and Father knows this, but it is of His will and purpose as to whether or not he answers your call.He is in control,not us.
He owns the phone company :D.
Peace...Mark
-
Hi Eileen,
To me prayer is more than just asking or even thanking God. I think of it as drawing near to our heavenly Father and needful contact with the heavenly realm.
James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you...
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.
Isn't praying giving reverence to God and acknowledging that we really believe He is there and that He has the ability and willingness to listen to us? It is for me. When our children are little they chatter about all kinds of things, it certainly doesn't always make sense. But we shouldn't want them to shut up, as they are developing communication skills and need to practice, just as we do in praying to God.
We understand that God is sovereign and has His plan for this creation already laid down and it will be carried out exactly according to His plan and will. So in praying that 'His will be done' aren't we showing respect for His great and wonderful plan/will for this creation, above our own usually selfish will? Isn't His wisdom so much greater than ours... indeed we have no wisdom at all.
Rom 11:33 O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
But because His wisdom and knowledge is far superior to ours, does not mean we should not pray. We need to "draw near to Him," and we come to a better understanding in doing so. I desire to pray to my Father even if I don't know exactly what to pray for, I believe the spirit is helping me and I am learning to get my thinking in-line with His, so I add 'according to Your perfect will.' Surely I/we only want what is the best good, even if it doesn't match up with my/our will. So I want 'His will to be done" always above my will.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.
v. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Hope this is of some help to you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
some time ago, i can't recall the exact year, but i was given a word from the Holy Spirit. i was going through a hard time physically and emotionally at the time, and i heard the Still Small Voice that said "when asking in prayer that God's Will be done, what could EVER be better than that. since God loves me above and beyond anything i could ever imagine, then His Will is the ABSOLUTELY best thing for me and my life, no matter what i was going through. i/we may not know what His Will is for any of us, but we can be assured that it IS for our BEST.
claudia
-
some time ago, i can't recall the exact year, but i was given a word from the Holy Spirit. i was going through a hard time physically and emotionally at the time, and i heard the Still Small Voice that said "when asking in prayer that God's Will be done, what could EVER be better than that. since God loves me above and beyond anything i could ever imagine, then His Will is the ABSOLUTELY best thing for me and my life, no matter what i was going through. i/we may not know what His Will is for any of us, but we can be assured that it IS for our BEST.
claudia
Claudia,
That does sum it up quite nicely, thanks.
george. :)
-
Aren't we supposed to pray without ceasing?
-
Aren't we supposed to pray without ceasing?
yes. and to always add to our petitions that may God's Will be done.
claudia
-
I don't want to start a whole new thread because this all ties in to the same thoughts I am having.
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Is cancer discipline/chastisement? If so, who is being disciplined the afflicted or the loved ones?
Eileen
-
I don't want to start a whole new thread because this all ties in to the same thoughts I am having.
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Is cancer discipline/chastisement? If so, who is being disciplined the afflicted or the loved ones?
Eileen
Eileen,
These Scriptures should answer those questions.
1Pe 4: 12-19 (YLT)
12 Beloved, do not be astonished at the fiery trial happening among you for your testing, as if a surprise were occurring to you;
13 but according as you share the sufferings of Christ, rejoice; so that you may rejoice exultingly at the revelation of His glory.
14 If you are reviled in the name of Christ, you are blessed, because "the Spirit of God and of glory rests on you." Truly, according to them, He is blasphemed; but according to you, He is glorified. Isa. 11:2
15 For do not let any of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or as a meddler in the affairs of others.
16 But if one suffers as a Christian, do not let him be ashamed, but to glorify God in this respect.
17 Because the time has come to begin the judgment from the house of God; and if firstly from us, what will be the end of the ones disobeying the gospel of God?
18 And "if the righteous is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?" Proverbs 11:31
19 So as indeed the ones suffering according to God's will, as to a faithful Creator, let them commit their souls in well-doing.
I used The GNB translation for v: 18,19 here below, because i think the language is clearer.
1Pe 4: 18-19 (GNB)
18 As the scripture says, "It is difficult for good people to be saved; what, then, will become of godless sinners?"
19 So then, those who suffer because it is God's will for them, should by their good actions trust themselves completely to their Creator, who always keeps his promise.
george. :)
-
Is cancer discipline/chastisement? If so, who is being disciplined the afflicted or the loved ones?
Hi Eileen,
The short answer is BOTH! ;)
Prayer is not about God aligning (changing) His will and desires with ours, but aligning our will and desires with His.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Peace,
Joe
-
Ray has cancer and is suffering. God disciplines his sons whom he loves. But what about Manuela? Is this for her too? What if Manuela was not a believer? Would Rays suffering still be for her discipline or is this solely for Ray? This, of course, is just an example of my main question in regard to cancer, who is God disciplining if anyone at all?
Eileen
-
What do you think is the right answer Eileen ???, please share your thoughts so we can discuss the question from your perspective, with the Scriptures as our guide.
george. ???
-
Hi again Eileen,
One thing that has given me comfort through difficult times is that although we may not appreciate or understand this "strange work" (Isa 28:21) as it unfolds here in this life we will certainly understand why it must have been deemed essential by God in the next age.
This is where faith comes into play.
Peace,
Joe
-
Ray has cancer and is suffering. God disciplines his sons whom he loves. But what about Manuela? Is this for her too? What if Manuela was not a believer? Would Rays suffering still be for her discipline or is this solely for Ray? This, of course, is just an example of my main question in regard to cancer, who is God disciplining if anyone at all?
Eileen
hi eileen,
since ray is responding back to emails to some extent now, i believe that your question would be best answered by ray himself. why don't you forward your specific question to him and let him respond. he is the one who is going through this suffering and he is available to answer you best from his very own personal and spiritual perspective
claudia
-
Hi Eileen,
I believe that everyone that is touched by suffering is shaped by it to some degree. As a person that is only a casual friend of someone that is suffering from an illness would not be nearly effected as someone close to them was, but effected to some degree.
I think that God is working all these experiences that we are having now for believers and nonbelievers to their ultimate salvation. For the Elect it is for their preparation to be in the first resurrection. But even those that will go into the Lake of Fire, these prior life experiences have developed character that for good or bad will be used to bring their ultimate salvation.
So everything that we or involved with (illness ourself or illness of a loved one), whatever we think, say or do is ultimately tested and judged by God's fire, now or later.
1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
v. 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Wow, guys! I never even thought of these things before! Ray is teaching us even from his bed of affliction! I do feel so bad for his family, they are suffering, too. Nothing worse than standing by helplessly watching as a loved one suffers. Believing that God is holding it all, God is all and in all, even though we know these things life is hard at best when you live through this situation. It brings it right back down to those verses in 1Cor.3:12-15! Thanks Kat.
Kathy
-
I cant compare my sufferings to what Jesus went through, beat and cut until almost all of His blood had drained from His body, and then carried His cross of which He would be nailed to. His suffering was short lived but while going through it, it must have seemed like much longer. I don't know how long Jesus knew these things were going to happen to Him, but that had to be some mental suffering as well.
His suffering was for us. What makes our suffering any different? I don't have cancer but some day I might and I will suffer, but it doesn't matter to me, it just gets me closer to a good sleep and departure from all suffering, and then Gods promise of purification and heaven.
We like for our children to come to us and talk to us, to tell us whats going on in their life. It draws us close to them and them to us and gives us the chance to develop trust with each other. We want them to know they can and should trust us. Its all about communication and relationship. If they dont talk to us and we them, then the relationship becomes unstable.
God knows exactly how to get us to talk to Him, and it doesn't matter what we talk to Him about because He lays it on our hearts what to say. The point is relationship and fellowship with our heavenly Father.
Children most of the time cant understand the things we teach them until their grown with their own children.
They ask but why this and that, and it goes on and on. We as parents know the story.
Suffering, praying, understanding, not understanding, wanting to do things our way. We are still children being raised by our Father.
Peace
Roy
-
Thanks for your replies everyone. Each post has something I can use to better my understanding.
You are all so great.
Eileen
-
Thanks for your replies everyone. Each post has something I can use to better my understanding.
You are all so great.
Eileen
Eileen,
I appreciated Roy's comments above along with all the others and of course we learn continuously so this will come up again. One thought came to mind for me and I would like to share it.
I have had cancer and been "cured" enough to continue to function fairly well for about twenty years now. I also have a degree of Prostate cancer that has not been treated thus far as I am 74 years old and "may" die of something else before the "cancer" overwhelms my body to the extent that I can't stand the pain. In January 2009 I had my left knee replaced and dealt with that trauma for a few weeks of therapy. The knee is pretty good now although this week my left hip is becoming tender resulting in pain and a limp.
So, what did I do that was wrong? What lesson is God teaching me and my wife and to a lesser extent my four children who suffer along with me?
Well, for one thing God is teaching me and all of us that we are mortal; we wear out eventually so we need to make the best of every day that we are given AND we need to look toward the future since this "mortal" life is temporary and fleeting. As the poet says, we are like the grass, here today and gone tomorrow. So we need to do the best we can with what we have been given no matter how much or how little. In other words don't worry about it for you can't change one thing that is ordained to come into your life by worrying about it. In fact the worry will probably just make it worse. So how should we think about this?
In my own case I have tried to fill my mind (let God fill my mind) with other positive thoughts. I had cancer in 1987 and God let me live through it with the help of a surgeon. In that trial I learned to trust my wife and appreciate her and to put her cares ahead of my own stubborn attitude. I didn't want to go to the doctor because I was trusting in healing from God. I was fasting and lost about 25 pounds and was still alert and working full time. Of course, as soon as the pain went away I began to forget the lesson AND to selfishly put some worry back onto my wife's mind. Finally, I gave up my selfish ego and at my wife's pleading, let the physician help me.
Another point is that I learned that life is about coming to realize that we, apart from God, are nothing. We are made totally self centered and we spend out lives thinking mostly about ourselves, UNLESS God intervenes in our hearts and minds to correct us in this life. As we know, many live out their lives without ever knowing God. The rest of us, the few who have been called out of the world have begun to receive enlightenment, we have begun to be shown the real purpose of life and to learn that we can have a personal, one on one, father to child relationship with our creator.
However, God is still the same, God decided that we all would die someday, somehow and God does not change. We all are mortal and designed from the beginning to wear out, to run down, to get so tired of the cares of THIS life that we just want to lay down and sleep. So, whether it is cancer or heart failure or just living a good life until we reach 100 anniversaries, what does it matter? All suffer in some manner. Even those who have very little pain in their lives still have to deal with disappointment, temptation, and many other daily concerns that pester us and make us ask WHY.
A point I would like to make here is that disease, dis-ease is normal. When we are children we usually don't worry about the purpose of life or how long it will last. When we get older we begin to learn and to understand that we will die eventually. Wearing out is normal and to be expected and to be accepted by those whom God has given knowledge. Why is cancer any different? Isn't cancer just a normal result of the breaking down of our bodies immune system?
In my way of thinking, now that I have had cancer twice, it is not a sentence or correction from God. I prefer to think of it as a normal result of how I lived my life and of what I inherited from my folks because of the way they lived their lives and the way our bodies are designed as temporary vessels for the human spirit and so forth back to Adam and Eve. Cancer is debilitating and often painful and frightening. With some it is more like a numbing soreness that won't go away and that keeps a person awake at night even though they seem healthy in other ways. So how is cancer any worse than severe arthritis or a traumatic and painful pregnancy or watching your child waste away from a mental illness like depression? There are many ways to suffer and many ways to die, but in the end the lesson is that we are mortal and all die unless there is a resurrection to a better life in the Kingdom of God.
God in His wisdom is teaching us a HARD lesson that all must learn eventually and the purpose of the lesson is hidden until God's spirit works with our mind to make the lesson clear and to develop compassion for others who need God's love imparted through us to each of them. Without God in our lives, all is vanity and it takes suffering along with the spirit of Christ to guide us into all knowledge and into perfect understanding.
I hope my personal story helped a little. Bob
Bob
-
Excellent post Bob!! I'm only 47 years old but some of the things you said gave me a few things to think about.
Thank you..
-
This is a great thread and I'm gaining much from you all.
luv,meee
-
Bob I appreciated your post and your disposition considering your condition. A good example of a personal relationship with our heavenly Father. Being a light, Gods presence in our life regardless of the situation, our example to be seen by the world. They for us and us for them and all for God. It really is an extraordinary concept.
Don't you just love it when people can see God in us? I think that its one of the many great blessings we are blessed with, but if we worry and fret and murmur and complain, or have emotions out of whack, well its kind of hard for anyone to see Gods glory in that.
Thank you for your post Bob.
Roy
-
I want to throw in my 2 cents, for I had a situation happen to me last week. I was walking out of a local restaurant when I had a coughing spell (whooping cough of sorts) and passed out. I only remember talking to the paramedics and being taken to the local hospital.
While this was happening, I felt the usual fears. I don't have health insurance. So I fear the bills piling up. However, I felt that the Lord was letting me know that this was for His purpose and my Benefit. The cough I had was with me for some time, so I was reluctant to get it checked out. That day I did ask that God's will be done. His will was different than mine. I felt He wanted me to slow down, and Trust in His ability to take care of me. Yesterday, I asked that God's will be done over the course of the day. I got a warning from the State Patrol about my seat belt. It hasn't worked in a year or more and I was upset over the warning. But I did get my prayer answered. I did ask that His will be done. I don't know how He has this one worked out. But that's for me to discover in the day's ahead.
As Ray noted in the "Praying by Gods Rules" paper. If you truly ask God's Will be done. Your prayer WILL be answered.
Ches
P.S. I'm feeling better despite this nagging flu bug.