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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: geokuhns on January 05, 2009, 03:05:16 PM
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Hi everybody.
I’m looking for help on the subject of “God Causes Everything.” Before coming across Ray’s teachings 11 months ago I was taught by the A.E. Knoch group (Jeff Priddy) that God causes everything including the rape and beheading of a little boy. (John Walsh’s son). I had a problem with that. Then I recently heard Ray say on an audio that God does not cause man to sin. James 1:13-15. I was thrilled to hear Ray say that but it is still difficult to connect the dots on this subject. So here are my thoughts and the dots I have connected and if I am wrong please help me to understand this difficult subject.
1) God is the cause of everything that has or will happen in this world.
2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.
3) The sinner is accountable for his/her sins but not responsible. God is responsible.
4) Even though God did not directly cause the crime against John Walsh’s son He knew from the beginning (Isa. 46:9, 10) that it would happen (Prov. 16:4) and could have intervened and stopped it if He wanted to.
5) God has caused everything that has or will happen because of the laws He has put into place from the beginning. These laws run the universe and all human reactions.
Comments welcomed.
George
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Hi George Kuhns,
Read this excerpt below or click the link and read the entire transcript; your answers are there and in other studies on the forum.
‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON . . . . . . Biblestudy Jan. 2007
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.msg40740.html#msg40740
It’s amazing, even when people are educated that this can not exist, like a magician’s trick, they still go out from this Bible study and think some how they do have free will anyway, because it APPEARS that way. I mean the magician really did pull a rabbit out of a hat, and you know it’s a trick, he showed you how he did it. But when he does it, it still ‘appears’ like he did something magical and you believe it.
Now here we get down to an ethical point, that I think is quite worthy.
Dr. Wegner said, “We worry that explaining evil condones it. We have to maintain our outrage at Hitler.”
Did you get that? He said, that if we explain the true cause of evil, people will think we condone it. We must maintain our outrage at Hitler.
How many emails have I gotten just like that. ‘Oh your saying, so Hitler is going to be up in heaven with us?’ ‘Oh really, nice Ray, and I suppose Sadam Hussin will be having tea with us and taking the last supper with us.’ You know they get real sarcastic like that. Why? Because they want to be better. They want to be better than Hitler, they want to be able to always think that Hitler made choices to do bad and he’s going to suffer for all eternity for it. And they say, ‘I on the other hand, I choose Christ and I’m going to be saved.’ So people feel this way.
I don’t mince words any more. The reason Christians feel this way is they despise the Word of God. You may say, ‘well that’s pretty strong, Ray. Maybe they just are deceived about it or confused.’ No! Sooner or later people come to the point where they are confronted with the Word of God and they either eaccept it or reject it. That is a choice, we have that ability. But it’s based on some cause, what we feel, what we know, what we see, what we hear. The mind can process data and make a choice. The Bible doesn’t say you can’t do that. I’ve never said you can’t do that, and even my cats can do that.
That is not free moral agency, however.
Now in James he says if you break any one of the laws or commandments of God, you’re guilty of all.
James 2:10 “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
Now he didn’t say if you steal, you killed somebody. He didn’t say if you steal you kill, no, he didn’t say that. He said if you break one your ‘guilty’ of all. How so?
He said because you are a ‘law breaker.’ There are laws, and if you break any one, you are a law breaker. Well what if you break that one, you’re are a law breaker, well what if I break this one, you’re a law breaker, ok. This is not rocket science.
God has laws, when you break one, guess what you are? You’re a law breaker! It doesn’t matter if you break the first or the second or the forth, you’re a law breaker. That’s what you are.
Now, God says He’s no respecter of persons. So if somebody breaks a big law and somebody breaks a little law, if He can forgive the breaker of the little law, can He forgive the breaker of the big law? Well this is where it gets kind of fuzzy for some people. Because a lot of people don’t think they have broke many of the laws.
You know I have heard ministers tell the audience on international TV, the sins of their youth. I have never heard one yet say that he likes to suck another man’s body parts, never. Never have I heard of someone saying that he use to lust after little children. Never have I heard that, never.
Here is what I have heard maybe a dozen times, from the top leading evangelist in the world, here are their sins. ‘Well when I was young, you know 18 or 21, I was a little aggressive. You know I had a lot of vanity, about wanting to accomplish things.’ So that’s it? That was your sin? ‘Yea that was really vanity on my part.’ Wow, that’s not really too much to repent of, is it. I mean that’s something you could tell the whole world about and not even be embarrassed (chuckle). You see what I saying?
I’m not saying that every man has homosexual tendencies or every man slapped his mother at some time or every man lusted after a child. I’m not saying that!
I just thank God there are certain sins that I just never was tempted to have or partake of. I’m so thankful for that. But if you think that I’m so stupid, that I can’t see that under the same circumstances, of whoever you want to take, say Manson, that I can’t see and know and understand in my very heart and being, that if I was born in his family under those conditions and circumstances, I would have been Charles Manson. This is the thing that people will not come to grips with. That’s why these people say, ‘Oh yes I was a little aggressive.’
That’s what Herbert Armstrong said, that was his sin. He said his sin was being too enthusiastic to succeed in life. Oh what a horrible sin that is. But he didn’t tell us the problem that he had with his daughter, did he. No, that had to come out later, you see. And don’t condemn Mr. Armstrong, for that even, other than it is a horrible sin.
You and I under the same circumstances, would have done the same thing. Why can’t we see that?
george. :)
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Hello, That, explains it well George. My Mother has a hard time with this. I don't like what they do, but I now try and look at maybe what there life as a child was like. I often, wondered if someone is a homosexual because they did not have a good relationship with there father. Same for women. It could not be either way, but now I just let God who knows all judge it. We know that we have man made laws that judge them. If, you murder you may be put to death or life in prison. God warns us about mans judgements. They have laws set up and we obey or we are punished. But, any of us could do anything we are so wicked.
In His Love,
Marlene
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My mother became a baptized church-goer several years ago. I actually get a kick out of telling her that I've broken all ten of the Ten Commandments. She thinks I'm absolutely crazy, anyway, about everything I believe and do now. She can't decide if I'm Jewish or Atheist...it just doesn't compute.
1. I've worshiped other gods, both natural and supernatural
2. I've made idols, both in my heart and with consumer goods
3. I've misused God's name, both by abusing it in speech and by imagining Him to be something other than who He really is
4. I've broken the Sabbath, both under the Law and under the Law of the Spirit
5. I've failed to honor my parents (she believes me on this one!)
6. I've killed, by hating others
7. I've committed adultery, by looking more than once
8. I've stolen
9. I've lied
10. I've coveted
Cheers,
Steve
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Hi,
I have trouble with this too sometimes.
God is operating everything according to his will (Eph 1:11).
God doesn't directly cause or force us to sin - but isn't it fair to say God causes us to sin, at least indirectly?
The direct cause of our sin is our own heart - our thoughts and lusts and desires.
But God designed us to be spiritually weak - he designed us to have those thoughts and lusts and desires.
When you look at the big picture, you have to admit that God intended the world to be exactly the way it is now. Which means God intended for there to be murders and many other wrongs that would be done, and some of those wrongs would be done to children. God intended it all! Its overwhelming, and we can't understand it all, but if God is all-knowing and all-seeing, operating all according to his will, then it must be that way. And it must be for a good purpose.
The only conclusion that can be made is that God causes sin, along with everything else, for a good purpose.
I don't see how we can say God doesn't cause sin, when we know God causes everything.
Please help me out here if I am way off base.
Kevin
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Here is another excerpt from Ray's free will series which is saying the same thing. God is the ultimate cause of all (this would include sin and all the crimes of the earth):
CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?
Even if we were to accept Mr. Robertson’s theory that God had nothing to do with this Christmas tsunami, we would still be forced to concede that “God allowed it.” That is, in fact, the terminology that is used in most discussions of this subject—Why did God “allow” it? Why does God “allow” this, that, and the other thing?
Allow, allow, allow. That is the mind-set of most discussions whether they are religious or secular—Why did God “allow” it? Surely no one doubts God’s ability to stop any or all such catastrophes if He so desired? A man in an Atlanta Court House murdered three people. Since God obviously did not stop it, why then did God “allow” it? Would you really like to know why God “allowed” those murders and why He allowed the Christmas tsunami?
And not only why did He allow this tsunami, but all tsunamis, and typhoons, and hurricanes, and floods, and tornadoes, and violent thunderstorms, and rock slides and mud slides, and avalanches, and volcanoes, and earthquakes, and forest fires, and droughts, and famines, and diseases, wars and holocausts, and (not just the killing 3 people in Atlanta), but all deaths? Do you really want to know why God “allows” these things? Are you sure you are ready for God’s answer to this most profound mystery in all creation?
I am reminded of the film, “A Few Good Men.” In a dramatic court scene Tom Cruise demands of the witness: “I want the TRUTH!” To which Jack Nicholson shouts back: “You can’t HANDLE the TRUTH!!”
This is what I fear is the situation here. People think they want the truth, but they can’t handle the truth. Very few indeed want the whole Truth: the whole counsel of God. And most of those who have heard it have been highly offended by it. Often they killed the messengers who brought God’s message of Truth. That’s just how offensive the Truth of God is to the carnal mind. I have a drawer full of emails that speak volumes against God’s Truth.
But I know that there are a few chosen of God to whom the Truth is not offensive. For those few I will continue. As Joan Rivers used to say: “Can we talk?” Are your kids in bed? Can we talk? The remainder of this series on free will is not for the immature or faint of heart.
Okay then, back to our question: Why does God “allow” all of the pain, suffering, disasters, and even mass killing of the innocent to happen? Actually, the question is not even a legitimate question because God does not “allow” any of these disasters to happen. Here then is one of the greatest truths in all the world and of all Scripture:
God does not “allow” anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!
If a person is able to prevent a crime (let’s say without any expense or harm to himself) but doesn’t, he is no better than the one who commits the crime. So now the question is: “Where is Jesus Christ when all such crimes are committed?" Is Jesus no more powerful or responsible than the god Baal?
“About noontime, Elijah began mocking them [the priests of Baal]. You’ll have to shout louder than that; he scoffed, to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!” (I Kings 18:27, The Living Bible).
No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.
Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?
Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.
I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?
You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
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I don't see how we can say God doesn't cause sin, when we know God causes everything.
Hey Kevin,
I've looked through this thread twice and I didn't see where anyone said that God does not cause sin. I've seen where it was stated mankind is 'accountable' for their sins and God is ultimately responsible, but I didn't see anything contrary to what you stated. I think you've pretty much got it though.
Marques
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Hi Marques,
Thanks for the clarification. I sometimes wonder if I've got it figured out ;) (and obviously I don't have everything figured out), but at least with the "problem of evil" I think I have a reasonable understanding...
I was responding to the OP where George said:
"Then I recently heard Ray say on an audio that God does not cause man to sin."
I believe Ray was meaning God does not cause man to sin directly. However, God does cause man to sin indirectly: by how he created our desires, by using circumstances, by sending evil spirts, and even using Satan himself.
Its not an easy topic for sure.
--
I discuss this on other boards occasionally and you get some downright nasty responses. Here is a recent response I got:
"What you are saying makes God the author of sin, and that cannot be!"
And this:
"This is a twisted lie straight from hell and I say that with the utmost respect. The respect that won't allow Gods character and nature to be impugned..."
And then this one (in a mocking tone):
"Oh No!
Even 'The Devil Made Me Do It'
Is A Better Lie Than 'See God Made Me So Bad! See, See' "
The funny thing is the last response was a lot closer to the truth than he realized. God did make us this way and the devil does tempt us, but I suppose most people think its only our free will...
Kevin
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Hi Kevin, George kuhns, Marques,
I have listened to the Audio many times and read the transcripts several times also. The understanding
i get is that: God Is Responsible (Creator Lord Of All) we are accountable (sinner carnal subject to sinning).
God does not “allow” anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!
This is a hard truth to swallow and bitter; but then it is much easier to understand this Scripture:
For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of
Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall
be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we
know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
george. :)
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Yep, 100% agree aqr.
Kevin
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Yep, 100% agree aqr.
Kevin
Ditto ;)
Marques
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I think we are starting to get to the heart of my original post. I think some misunderstood my post. For example I do believe that mankind does not have free will and I do believe that God is a sovereign God and is the cause of all events in the world - past and future.
I agree with Kevin’s post. He states that God does not cause man to sin directly. I believe that to be true. God has created the human nature and the circumstances that can lead one to commit sin. That is why God is responsible. And as I stated in my original post God created all the laws that govern the operating of the universe and the operating of human nature. Therefore God has known from the beginning of time every human event that would occur because of His wisdom and laws.
Again I repeat the following statements that I believe to be true. If any are not please respond.
1) God is the cause of everything that has or will happen in this world either directly or indirectly.
2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.
3) The sinner is accountable for his/her sins but not responsible. God is responsible.
4) Even though God did not directly cause the crime against John Walsh’s son He knew from the beginning (Isa. 46:9, 10) that it would happen (Prov. 16:4) and could have intervened and stopped it if He wanted to.
5) God has caused everything that has or will happen because of the laws He has put into place from the beginning. These laws run the universe and all human reactions and as a result God “Declares the end from the beginning.” Isa. 46:10.
6) Mankind does not have a free will.
7) God is a sovereign God.
8) God will cause the Steelers to win the Super Bowl. ;D
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Yes.
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I think we are starting to get to the heart of my original post. I think some misunderstood my post. For example I do believe that mankind does not have free will and I do believe that God is a sovereign God and is the cause of all events in the world - past and future.
I agree with Kevin’s post. He states that God does not cause man to sin directly. I believe that to be true. God has created the human nature and the circumstances that can lead one to commit sin. That is why God is responsible. And as I stated in my original post God created all the laws that govern the operating of the universe and the operating of human nature. Therefore God has known from the beginning of time every human event that would occur because of His wisdom and laws.
Again I repeat the following statements that I believe to be true. If any are not please respond.
1) God is the cause of everything that has or will happen in this world either directly or indirectly.
2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.
3) The sinner is accountable for his/her sins but not responsible. God is responsible.
4) Even though God did not directly cause the crime against John Walsh’s son He knew from the beginning (Isa. 46:9, 10) that it would happen (Prov. 16:4) and could have intervened and stopped it if He wanted to.
5) God has caused everything that has or will happen because of the laws He has put into place from the beginning. These laws run the universe and all human reactions and as a result God “Declares the end from the beginning.” Isa. 46:10.
6) Mankind does not have a free will.
7) God is a sovereign God.
8) God will cause the Steelers to win the Super Bowl. ;D
#4 is off-base...God causes all things...check out Ray's paper that Kevin comments from; Ray goes into much more detail regarding this. Also, the Lake of Fire series on free-will (4 papers total) go into great detail too. Saying 'directly' makes no difference as God is the cause of all. "...him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" [Eph 1:11]. To say that God does not 'directly' cause evil & sin is the same as saying it happens by chance. Though we choose to sin because of our carnal nature, we didn't create our carnal nature or have a choice in the matter. God 'caused' all to have this carnal nature in order to have mercy on us all. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." [Rom 11:32]
Just a heads up for whoever this may help: Even though Ray has papers and bible studies that have one title and are about that one subject; Ray touches on a number of other subjects throughout. For short example, his paper titled 'Fool, Hypocrites, Snakes' is about how Jesus spoke and taught in his earthly ministry...but later in the paper, you'll find a section about tithing. Even though Ray has a tithing paper, he will touch on other subjects as well in similar fashion.
Thanks,
Marques
P.S. And no, the Steelers will not win the Superbowl...God has 'caused' them to win enough as it is... :D
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Hi Marques,
Yes I think using the words "directly" or "indirectly" is just semantics, and ultimately God "directly" causes everything (as has been repeated throughout this thread).
As you suggest, God "directly" caused us to have our sinful carnal nature so he could "indirectly" cause us to sin.
Stating it like that makes it sound like God didn't know what would happen. "Hm, maybe I'll give the humans a sinful nature and see if they don't sin..." LOL not likely. God directly created us the way he wanted to so that we would do exactly what he wanted us to do.
Its all of God regardless if you think God calls the shots "directly" or "indirectly". Just like the lying spirits God sent out... God sent them out to do what he wanted done, not just so God could "wash his hands" of the matter of evil.
I think we just use the words "directly" & "indirectly" to help our finite human minds understand, and to help sanitize our image of God a bit.
Kevin
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My mother became a baptized church-goer several years ago. I actually get a kick out of telling her that I've broken all ten of the Ten Commandments. She thinks I'm absolutely crazy, anyway, about everything I believe and do now. She can't decide if I'm Jewish or Atheist...it just doesn't compute.
1. I've worshiped other gods, both natural and supernatural
2. I've made idols, both in my heart and with consumer goods
3. I've misused God's name, both by abusing it in speech and by imagining Him to be something other than who He really is
4. I've broken the Sabbath, both under the Law and under the Law of the Spirit
5. I've failed to honor my parents (she believes me on this one!)
6. I've killed, by hating others
7. I've committed adultery, by looking more than once
8. I've stolen
9. I've lied
10. I've coveted
Cheers,
Steve
I like that. More people should realize they have broke all the commandments, only then maybe can they start actually living them.
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Continuing on with the "We are accountable but God is responsible" theme...
Here is a verse that shows we will be accountable:
Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
But is there a verse that plainly say God is responsible for all?
Its definitely implied, as God is the creator of all, declared the beginning from the end (Isaiah 46:10) and works all according to his will (Eph 1:11, 1 Cor 12:6).
Anyone know of a verse where it plainly says "God is responsible"? That would be helpful to show people who don't believe it. I suppose Romans 11:32 is applicable as well.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Kevin,
See if any of these Scriptures help, there are a lot more you can use these as markers to work with.
Psalms 10:13:
In what does the wicked irritate God? He has said in his heart, Thou wilt not require [accountability].
I Peter 4:5:
the same shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Ezekiel 28:2:
"Son of man, tell the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Almighty LORD says: In your arrogance you say, "I'm a god. I sit on God's throne in the sea." But you're only human and not a god, although you think you are a god.
Ezekiel 34:31:
And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, [are] men, [and] I [am] your God, said the Lord GOD.:
Isaiah 14:24:
The LORD of the hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:
Ephesians:1: 9-11
9-having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself, 10-that in the dispensation of the fulfillment of the times he might restore all things by the Christ, both those which are in heaven and those which are on earth,
11-in him in whom likewise we have obtained an inheritance, having had [the way] marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will,
george. :)
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Hi Kevin,
To me this passage clearly shows God's sovereignty and that He is the cause of all things.
Eph 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11-12 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kevin,
To me this passage clearly shows God's sovereignty and that He is the cause of all things.
Eph 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11-12 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
[/quote
Didn't you mean "according to the counsel of mankind" ? LOL Sorry just makes me laugh when I read that verse because I realize how mankind is so ignorant and so full of pride. Part of knowing Christ is to be knocked off you high horse! You ride in as Saul and get turned into Paul. It's so good to be humbled. Humble us Lord.
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...snip...
My cousin calls himself a Root Hebrew Christian... and I have no clue what that means either.
...snip...
Some Christians desire to understand the Bible as they believe a Hebrew would. This means as a Middle Easterner, rather than as a Westerner. One way that this manifests is a belief in BIBLICAL PATRIARCHY, which is probably necessary to understand before BIBLICAL POLYGAMY. If you Google those two terms, you'll find out more, if you want to understand. Hope this helps...
For the record, I do not ascribe to or carry either of these labels.
God Bless You, Jacob
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Kat & George (aqr),
Thanks for the scriptures. I have no doubt that God is sovereign, and I agree all these scriptures state as much, and by implication make God responsible. Its just that some people don't see it that way :) You know the usual line "you decided to sin so you are responsible for it while I chose God and am responsible for my own salvation". I've even seen people fully admit that the complete work of salvation is finished and is only of God - yet still insist you must accept Christ of your own free will to be saved! Hm, I thought you just said the work of salvation was finished and ONLY OF GOD! Sigh...
Ezekiel 28:2:
"Son of man, tell the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Almighty LORD says: In your arrogance you say, "I'm a god. I sit on God's throne in the sea." But you're only human and not a god, although you think you are a god.
This is a really good one George, I don't think I fully realized the implications of it before. This scripture is not just for the king of Tyre, its for everyone! We all sit on God's throne claiming we are "god" with our free will beliefs. Also notice the mention of "God's throne in the sea" This would be the "sea of humanity", no? ie. the sea in revelations.
Isaiah 14:24:
The LORD of the hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:
That is another good verse that complements Isa 46:10, Isa 55:11, and Eph 1&2.
I find it interesting how different people find different verses that all show the same thing, but help to give additional clarification! God is working through us all so we can learn and understand.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Kevin,
Every day i find more Treasure in The Scriptures, just imagine if All the things Jesus Said and Did
were written. According to the Scriptures the world could contain it. Hope you have enough weapons
now for this part of the continuing Spiritual Warfare. ???
george. ;D
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I think I have all the dots connected now. I went back and found the audio tape (I’m amazed I found it so quickly) where Ray said that God does not “make” man sin. It is the August 2008 Bible Study titled “Free Will”,
Part 1. If you fast forward to the 16 minute mark you will hear Ray say that God does not “make” men sin. He references James 1:13-15 that says God does not tempt anyone and one is tempted and enticed by his own lust. Ray says that God does not have to “make” man sin because man is a sinning machine.
The key words involved in this discussion is “make” and “cause.” God does not “make” us sin but “causes” us to sin and there is a difference. Here is how Webster defines these two words.
Make - To compel.
Cause - Something that brings about a result.
God does not compel us to sin but He does bring about or causes sin in order to “bring about” the result which is qualified sons of God as we learn that sin brings pain, suffering and death. :)
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Bingo George Kuhns,
It usually takes several times going over a Revelation before we even start to (get it).
I learned when still a child to take snapshots of the whole page in my mind at the first
reading. Then when i read again my mind is correlating past and current information to
better my understanding. Now think when The Spirit Of God opens up that little trickle
of understanding that we first have with the carnal mind into a Torrent of Truth.
Waiting on The Lord to Teach us is hard with the clamor for our attention from everyside.
But when we wait He Will Teach and Guide us into All Truth. (He Leads me in The Paths Of
Righteousness For His Name's Sake.)
Psalm 23:3
He restores my soul: he leads me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Psalms 19:7:
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalms 31:3:
Because, my mountain crag and my stronghold, thou art, Therefore, for the sake of thine own Name, wilt thou lead me and guide me?
george. ;D
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My mother became a baptized church-goer several years ago.
Ah jeez! I have one of those mothers myself. Except she hasn't been to church in awhile due to health issues and lack of transportation; she still goes to like prayer meetings and stuff though because they have a location near her place of residence.
She watches however all that crap on TBN; and it makes me want to vomit. I mean, Hinn, Hagee. Hagee is such a Zionist that he believes that the Jews don't even have to believe in Christ; they are that special. Moving on...
I actually get a kick out of telling her that I've broken all ten of the Ten Commandments. She thinks I'm absolutely crazy, anyway, about everything I believe and do now. She can't decide if I'm Jewish or Atheist...it just doesn't compute.
LOL!
That actually made me chuckle.
1. I've worshiped other gods, both natural and supernatural
2. I've made idols, both in my heart and with consumer goods
3. I've misused God's name, both by abusing it in speech and by imagining Him to be something other than who He really is
4. I've broken the Sabbath, both under the Law and under the Law of the Spirit
5. I've failed to honor my parents (she believes me on this one!)
6. I've killed, by hating others
7. I've committed adultery, by looking more than once
8. I've stolen
9. I've lied
10. I've coveted
Cheers,
Steve
I've broken all those and then some. Not bragging; just saying.
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How many emails have I gotten just like that. ‘Oh your saying, so Hitler is going to be up in heaven with us?’ ‘Oh really, nice Ray, and I suppose Sadam Hussin will be having tea with us and taking the last supper with us.’ You know they get real sarcastic like that. Why? Because they want to be better. They want to be better than Hitler, they want to be able to always think that Hitler made choices to do bad and he’s going to suffer for all eternity for it. And they say, ‘I on the other hand, I choose Christ and I’m going to be saved.’ So people feel this way.
I'd rather be up in heaven with Adolf Hitler than with any of those haters any day. They think they are somehow better by wishing eternal hell upon not only Hitler, but everybody that's not Christian and they think they can even hold a candle to Adolf?
Torturing people with fire for all eternity is infinitely worse than what your most anti Hitler story, movie, book, person can ever say that Hitler did.
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As for God causing everything it's still a topic which I am still having trouble with, to be frank. I mean, if that is so; then that means my life could not have been, and could not be any different then what it has been, what it is, and what it will be and nothing I can do will change that because while I do make my own choices there is a causation which causes me to choose accordingly.
It also really makes you seem so very weak - when you can't even control your own life, your own destiny, and so forth. So it's really something I'm still contemplating and trying to make sense out of amongst other things.
So basically what happened to John Walsh's son was inevitable? And yes, I understand that no one is saying God made the sick perv rape and decapitate the kid, he did that out of his own heart and lusts; but it was inevitable nonetheless. And if that's the case then our whole life is planned out for us; even when and how we die in that it can not be any other way.
I don't know about you but if that's true - that just makes me feel really powerless.
What are your thoughts on this?
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It makes me feel powerless too, but:
2 Corinthians 12:9 - And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
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Well Sorin,
At least you come to the point where understanding starts, we really are powerless to control anything.
These quotes from our Lord Jesus Christ should answer your questions.
John 5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise.
John 5:30:
I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my
own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me.
george. :)
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Amen to that, Sorin! Hey if God can save US (Me) then why shouldn't he be able to save anyone? Not one of us is any better than the next guy, our sins may be different, but God is no respecter of persons, right?
Just to think that SIN is what God hates. Pride, hate, selfishness, greed...etc. it's all sin. sin is sin.
I am guilty of sin, and so is everyone on this planet. We are all the same, except that some of us are being led into more truth, but sin is our nature until GOD changes things! When I hear anyone say "You are going to hell" It makes me want to throw up! :P
Sorin, I can't answer that question about feeling powerless..BUT I know that God is in control and God is all powerful, what his purposes are we don't know. Why things happen the way they do, we don't know. We just trust that God is in control. That is the only thing that can keep you grounded.
Kathy :)
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Hi Sorin.
long time bro....
To be humble is a gift grom God thus it has to be learned...
To feel powerless is a humble feeling... no?. give thanks that God is teaching you now...
Hang in there bro.
Peace and understanding.
Randy
;D 8) ;D
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Hi Sorin,
then that means my life could not have been, and could not be any different then what it has been, what it is, and what it will be and nothing I can do will change that because while I do make my own choices there is a causation which causes me to choose accordingly.
What you stated is the sovereignty of God. With this understanding comes understanding the fear of God, but I don't think of it so much as 'fear' but respect.
Luke 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
v. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
v. 6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
v. 7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever.
We all are powerless indeed and the whole world is in the dark about this truth, but now you know who controls all things and where all the power comes from. This knowledge gives you a whole new perspective. Hopefully you really will desire to know Him that has brought you into existence and seek to get your thinking in line with His will.
Luke 12:22 Then He said to His disciples, "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on.
v. 23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.
v. 24 Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds?
v. 25 And which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
v. 26 If you then are not able to do the least, why are you anxious for the rest?
v. 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
v. 28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?
v. 29 "And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind.
v. 30 For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things.
v. 31 But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.
v. 32 "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
v. 33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.
v. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
When you accept God's sovereignty and truly turn everything over to Him, you will have real peace.
Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
v. 5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
v. 6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
v. 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Just trying to help by sharing what His sovereignty means to me :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi George K
You say :2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.
God is responsible for EVERYTHING. God sent His Son to die because God the Father can not die. He gave up His Son to show us His Love
1 John 3 : 9 By THIS (Christ coming into the world to die) the Love of God was revealed in us, because His Son, the Only-begotten, God has sent into the world that we might live through Him.
We live through Him by God conforming us into His image. This is God's work and power in us that brings us into the experience of learning to discern and know exactly what is good and what is bad/evil. This is the Plan and Purpose of God for all of us.
Gen 3 : 22 ....Behold! The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil.....
We all know that non are in the image of God yet except for His perfect spotless Lamb, Jesus Christ The world is aching for the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God and that is what all the misery, pain and suffering, evil, deception, and lies are all about.
Light has to come OUT of Darkness. It will be, because God will make it so. This is our Hope.
Arc
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Hello all, I have had a big beef with this truth of not having free will. For the last several months I have tried to solve this beef by pretending (to myself only) that I do have free will. I know I don't have it , but pretending to myself I do have it, helps me do better for God because I know the difference between right and wrong now, what is right in life for God, or maybe the way He would like me to be. Does this make any sense at all.
Bless you all. Ricky
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Hello all, I have had a big beef with this truth of not having free will. For the last several months I have tried to solve this beef by pretending (to myself only) that I do have free will. I know I don't have it , but pretending to myself I do have it, WHAT? helps me do better for God because I know the difference between right and wrong now,Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. what is right in life for God, or maybe the way He would like me to be. Does this make any sense at all.
Bless you all. Ricky
Sounds like a lot of double talk Ricky.
You should stop pretending and accept the fact that your not in control.
This seems to be a hard one for a lot of people.
Read Ray's papers on the Myth of Free Will and put your mind at ease.
Meditate on it for a while.
Antaiwan
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Antaiwan, I am sorry that you have completly missed what I have said.
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Hi Ricky,
By your "pretending" is that like saying to God, I know You are in control, but I want to be? Do you think God would approve of that additude? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying too. For me I am very happy knowing that a perfect and wise Father is totally in charge.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Antaiwan, I am sorry that you have completly missed what I have said.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, please clarify what you mean when you say "pretending"
Pretending-
1: to give a false appearance of being, possessing, or performing
2: to make believe : feign b: to claim, represent, or assert falsely
Explain how lying to yourself helps better your relationship with God?
Also you did ask if it made any sense, obvious to you, my statement didn't. Help me to understand so we can get through this.
Antaiwan
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Ricky, I had been deceived for years. Knowing the truth has set me free. I remember it starting when I was a small child. I would tell a white lie. I would go repent and then what would I do. I would do it all over. I can remember asking God why do I continue to sin if you forgive me. He was not ready to give me the truth. I was too young. He wanted me to experience good and bad. We are hear to be taught lessons. Yes, he wants us to hate sin.
Why, after having the truth would you want to take the job of saving yourself back on. I tried that for years and it never worked. Before, I came in here I had done something that I hated myself for. I use to look at what I called the good things I did . That never humbles a person that puffs us up. Especially, when we are in Babylon. Well, let me tell you. That, last failure was a big one. Was, I ever humbled. I knew, I was wanting to die, because I could not stand the thought that I was a big hypocrite going to church satisfied with some victory I had, but not owning up to the fact that I could not handle anything. Well, I was thinking if there is a Hell I am in it. Little did I know, God was working with me then. I kept asking for forgiveness, but never felt it. Right before he delieved me the scripture that he could provide a way out of all temptaion came to my mind. He was working on me then. I had his spirit living in me then cause he delievered me from it. Then he delivered me from my believe in Hell. He set me free with truth.
You try to do it yourself. Why, would that work. We have to wait on the Lord , rest in him. We can't do a thing. I believe, that you need to have patience with God he led you to these truths. So, now he wants you to live in spirit and truth. We can't do a thing for this free gift. I fear and tremble because I know I can't do it. Its all up to him.
Hope this helps some. This feeling like you have to pretend to do it, is not from God. I tried to tell myself , that I lived in Africa and there is no food that I could get to after so long. Now, I just trust God to help me with it. If, I cant use something I like to indulge in, why put it there for temptation. Sad part is most of my medications make you hungry. But, we all have things we want gone and now. But, we are here to learn patience and longsuffering, Love and many things. God will take them away. We hate them and that means alot to God. He is going to use the same way with the ones in the Second resurrection. Understanding Truths of God are a great blessing. I just pray to God may I never forget what you brought me from!
In His Love,
Marlene
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Hello all, I have had a big beef with this truth of not having free will. For the last several months I have tried to solve this beef by pretending (to myself only) that I do have free will. I know I don't have it , but pretending to myself I do have it, helps me do better for God because I know the difference between right and wrong now, what is right in life for God, or maybe the way He would like me to be. Does this make any sense at all.
Bless you all. Ricky
Hi Ricky,
I have never felt a peace that compares to the peace of knowing that God is in total control. When I do good, I know that God gets the glory. When I do bad, I know that I am weak, but God is using that weakness for something good. When good things happen, I know that God is blessing me. When bad things happen, I know that God is using it for something good.
If at any time I'm thinking something else, like it was ME that accomplished a thing, or that GOD doesn't love me anymore, this deep-seated understanding quickly humbles me, corrects me, and puts me back on the right path.
Steve
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Hello, maybe pretend is the wrong word, and if it is I do not know what the right word would be. I see it like this, God is the cause, so how am I doing anything on my own. Is it not God causing me to do what I do, good or evil? Would this not be for my own good in learning? If I go outside my home and evil comes to me, is not God the cause of that. And my actions toward that evil, would God not be the cause of that as well. And the choice I make for handling that evil, either with good or evil, would God not be the cause of that as well? Where do I have the power to make choices if God is the cause of what I do or not do? I have dumped all sins in my life, but one, or should I say that God has shown me how to dump them, God is the cause of that. God is the cause of everything that happens in life, I can understand that and accept it. So what would he need Satan for, so He does not get the blame for anything or what? God is the cause, I see this being the cause of the choices I make as well it is impossible for me to do anything on my own. It seems like what I am saying here, right now, what you are reading, is not God the cause of this? I am not fighting God, I would not fight anyone that I could not defeat, what a waste of time that would be.I am searching for the understanding of the cause. Somehow the Cause, Freewill and Choices, do not go together. And the battle goes on with me. Please continue to answer this for me so that God can cause me to see the right way.
Ricky
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Hello, maybe pretend is the wrong word, and if it is I do not know what the right word would be. I see it like this, God is the cause, so how am I doing anything on my own. Is it not God causing me to do what I do, good or evil? Would this not be for my own good in learning? If I go outside my home and evil comes to me, is not God the cause of that. And my actions toward that evil, would God not be the cause of that as well. And the choice I make for handling that evil, either with good or evil, would God not be the cause of that as well? Where do I have the power to make choices if God is the cause of what I do or not do? I have dumped all sins in my life, but one, or should I say that God has shown me how to dump them, God is the cause of that. God is the cause of everything that happens in life, I can understand that and accept it. So what would he need Satan for, so He does not get the blame for anything or what? God is the cause, I see this being the cause of the choices I make as well it is impossible for me to do anything on my own. It seems like what I am saying here, right now, what you are reading, is not God the cause of this? I am not fighting God, I would not fight anyone that I could not defeat, what a waste of time that would be.I am searching for the understanding of the cause. Somehow the Cause, Freewill and Choices, do not go together. And the battle goes on with me. Please continue to answer this for me so that God can cause me to see the right way.
Ricky
Ricky an email to Ray about choice...
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6440.0.html
If it is God who controls our every thought and action, would'nt your teachings be in vain? If we cant make the decision to renew our minds, then why waste your energy and time trying to convince us of truth? I agree with 99.9% of your teachings, but I'm struggling with this one. God Bless Your Heart, Chad
Dear Chad: I get asked this question about every 72 hours, month after month. You make all your own choices and you think all your own thoughts, and you have a "will" to do so. What you don't have, is a will that is FREE FROM CAUSALITY to do these things. People will say things like: "What ever MADE you think that; or what ever MADE you do such and such." There is your answer. We know inherently that there are reasons CAUSES for your thoughts and choices. You can make a choice that does not have a cause somewhere, and if something is caused to happen it could not have been otherwise. I teach the truths of God because this is just one way that God CAUSES people to see the truth (I Cor. 1:21). The foolishness of teaching and preaching CAUSES people to see and understand and believe and act accordingly. It is not correct to state as you have that "God CONTROLS our every thought and action." He does not need to "control" us, as He already knows far in advance exactly what we WILL DO AND THINK based on the conditions and circumstances of our individual lives.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
Try these also...
Free will / Experience of Evil
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8711.0.html ---predetermined
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7895.0.html -God's foreknowledge
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7111.0.html ---"sin willfully"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7004.0.html ---caused
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6992.0.html ---life?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6479.0.html -learning experience
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6440.0.html ---God controls?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6318.0.html -does God have freewill
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6295.0.html ---choice and volition
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6212.0.html ---appearance of evil
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6100.0.html ---desire and will
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5690.msg46052.html#msg46052 -judgments of God
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5648.0.html ---extremes?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5549.0.html ---forces us?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5158.0.html --free will verses?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669 -God is First Cause
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4928.0.html ---sin no more?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4827.msg37299.html#msg37299
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4751.0.html ---volunteer
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ---robots
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html ---caused
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4596.0.html ---sins
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4326.0.html ---foreknowledge
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4300.0.html ---why all this
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4205.0.html ---vessels of dishonor
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4191.0.html -freedom to choose?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4029.0.html ---ordained
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3948.0.html ---original thought
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3934.0.html ---analogy
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3841.0.html ---semantics
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.0.html ---preordained
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3796.0.html -subject/vanity
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3705.0.html ---darker-dawn
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3682.msg27740#msg27740
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3622.0.html ---God's stage
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3095.0.html ---learning
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2721.0.html -experience/evil
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2697.0.html -cause & effect
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2590.0.html ---blaming God
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2545.0.html -thoughts/deeds
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2943.0.html -intelligent/robots
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ---cause/effect
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2462.0.html -"not of Myself"
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html -foreknowledge
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2310.0.html -force at work
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2302.0.html ---sin
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html ---accountable
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2215.0.html -predestination
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2194.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2142.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2099.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2050.0.html ---OT violence
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1979.0.html ---love
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html ---choosing
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1913.0.html -'free' renegade will?
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1851.0.html -you volunteer
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1775.0.html -belief is faith
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html ---our choices
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1731.0.html ---free choice?
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1700.0.html ---lusts
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1610.0.html ---memory
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1553.0.html -caused choice
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html ---volunteer *
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1342.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1189.0.html -voluntarily sin
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1023.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,756.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,629.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,627.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,579.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134 -evil
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#force
http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account ---accountable
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#passion
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#double
http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm#sounds
http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm#failure
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#puppets
http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm#impress
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#fireman
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why *
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#freewill ---made weak*
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam ---Adam’s sin *
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ---accountable *
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Hi Ricky,
What you need to do is take a large helping of Humble pie. Stop being so stubborn and high minded as to think GOD indulges in word play. HE Said It, He Does It; Thats IT. He Is The Potter; you and i and everyone, are a pot or broken pot being fashioned into what; HE GOD WILLS.
Isa 29:16 (KJV)
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
The Prosecution Rests and ask for a guilty verdict.
Jer 18: 2-4 (KJV)
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Based on the evidence; all humans are declared guilty of being pots, most broken at the moment.
Rom 9:21 (KJV)
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Case Closed; POTTER GOD is Awarded Everything.
george. ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Ricky,
This is a struggle that we all have in trying to understand the concept of no free will, when we have believed it all of our lives.
Here are a few emails that may help your understanding.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2943.0.html ----
I understand, Paul, that this truth is difficult for most to comprehend. And I
am not completely sure why this is so. I think possibly because we have
been trained and programmed to see too many things in only two dimensions,
when in reality there is a third dimention, but it is an illusion created by God
giving us two eyes spaced apart at the right distances to give us the illusion of
depth perception. Well, we need a little spiritual depth perception.
Theologians and clerics would have us believe that there are only two possibilities
with regards to man's either having free choice or not having free choice.
[1] We either have free will/choice and can make decisions based on no causing factors
whatsoever. We supposedly just create thoughts and actions out of NOTHING. Or,
[2] We are dumb robots.
Their is no third alternative for them. But here is the alternative truth that is in the
Scriptures and in the real work-a-day world. We have no free choice or free will
which is not caused by anything, as such a fabled idea is not only unscriptural, but
also a physiological impossibility. But........BUT, the alternative is not that we are
then "dumb robots." No, a thousand times, NO. We are intelligent. A person can
be intelligent and yet not have free will. We can think. A person can think and
yet not have free will. We can plan, think spacially, create, imagine, analyze and
manipulate difficult numbers and concepts, and WE CAN LEARN. I do not believe
that we shall ever build such robots as ourselves, and even if we did, we would have
to conclude that it was OUR INTELLIGENCE that built them, and they still would
not have free will or free choice either.
The fact that our choices are caused by some factor does not turn us into robots. And
because we are highly complicated and intelligent, it is God's purpose for us to experience evil and then learn from it and choose to do good. Suffering the pain of making bad decisions or being Judged by God for making bad decisions is a GOOD thing, not a bad.
Certainly we do not punish a robot if it malfunctions, but robots don't have hearts and minds and consciences to direct them or give them guilt when they do wrong. Humans are highly developed mechanisms, organisms, creatures, etc., plus we have a spirit at our core. Something that no robot will ever have It is right and good that God should judge us
for doing bad things from our hearts and minds within. Ask God to continue opening your mind to these difficult concepts.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3095.0.html -------
we are billions of times more complex than "puppets" or "atomatons." You fail to see that we LEARN. We have the ability to accumulate, process data, AND LEARN. That God puts us in the situations necessary to accomplish this is no sin.
We "train" our little children by our SUPERIOR POWER AND KNOWLEDGE, and we in fact, FORCE (if you want to use a strong word) our will upon them, by LOVINGLY TEACHING them right from wrong. And thankfully, THEY DO LEARN, and that is no sin on our part for having superior knowledge, wisdom, and power to enforce our will on theirs in this learning process. We ARE God's children.
You are fighting the Scriptures and the laws of physics. There are NO uncaused effects anywhere in the universe except in the deceived minds of carnal-minded men. Listen to my Bible Study from Sunday on our Forum. It is on "free will."
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134 ---
It is within the carnal mind to do ALL the evils of the universe, and that is why carnal-minded people do such things.
Ask yourself what kinda of a God would allow YOU to be led to these same crimes of eating your own children? PEOPLE rape little girls, not God! Some people WANT to rape little girls. Others just want to DECEIVE their fellow brothers and sisters into thinking that they are powerful, or great, or spiritual, or wise, or loving, etc., but are just as evil inside as Adolph Hitler. Given the opportunity we would have all been Calvin and Hitler. But is it necessary? Yes, it is necessary. Do we think that God is playing a game?
I once placed a board across a little stream that I crossed going to school in the first grade. However, laying a board accross San Francisco Bay is a bit more involved. Creating a cat that will sit and purr on your lap is one thing, but creating creatures into the very IMAGE OF GOD HIMSELF, is quite another. Even the miracle of the Golden Gate Bridge compared to a wooden board cannot compare to what we see now and what we will be when God is through with us.
It takes incredible powers of good and evil to accomplish this. Christians cannot justify God's use of evil, and hence attribute it to what they preceive to be a greater force than God--SATAN. Supposedly God doesn't want evil, but He just can't stop Satan. Nonsense. Read my site. I told you it is a large subject.
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2721.0.html --------
God CREATED evil (Isa. 45:6) and God USES evil all day long. Evil has no moral bias. Evil means to crush to pieces irrespective of any emotion. Men, of course, SIN when they use evil against another. God never sins when He uses evil.
It is part of the very purpose of our existence to "experience evil." "...It is an EXPERIENCE OF EVIL Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Ecc. 1:12). Name me one virtue that is not the direct result of overcoming some form of evil? Sorry, but I have hundreds of unanswered emails ahead of yours. Read the material on our site for the details. Read my four-part series "The Myth of Free Will Exposed" in Installment 15 of my "Lake of Fire" series near the top of our home page.
God be with you,
Ray
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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to (know) good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
H995
בּין
bîyn
bene
A primitive root; to separate mentally (or distinguish), that is, (generally) understand: - attend, consider, be cunning, diligently, direct, discern, eloquent, feel, inform, instruct, have intelligence, know, look well to, mark, perceive, be prudent, regard, (can) skill (-ful), teach, think, (cause, make to, get, give, have) understand (-ing), view, (deal) wise (-ly, man).
a good man chooses good and a bad man chooses evil but it still choice and the good man can choose evil just as the bad man can choose good
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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to (know) good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
H995
בּין
bîyn
bene
A primitive root; to separate mentally (or distinguish), that is, (generally) understand: - attend, consider, be cunning, diligently, direct, discern, eloquent, feel, inform, instruct, have intelligence, know, look well to, mark, perceive, be prudent, regard, (can) skill (-ful), teach, think, (cause, make to, get, give, have) understand (-ing), view, (deal) wise (-ly, man).
a good man chooses good and a bad man chooses evil but it still choice and the good man can choose evil just as the bad man can choose good
Matt 19:17, Mk 10:18, & Lk 18:19 ...there is none good but one, that is, God
1 Cor 2:13-15 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Kenny,
I've noticed on a few threads now this tendency of yours to refer to people as 'good' and/or 'righteous'. This is unscriptural as there are none good, we all have fallen short of the glory of God. Mankind choose evil because he/she is naturally, inherently evil.
Deut 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always...
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked...
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God
Rom 8:7 ...the carnal mind [natural, fleshly] is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
Only through God's grace (divine influence upon our hearts) does one do 'good'. And even then, it is not the person themselves doing the works, but God IN them.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I [yet not I laboured], but the grace of God [laboured] which was with me.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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God 'caused' all of us to be in the condition Marques described. Can't be a greater 'cause' than the fact we were created carnal and spiritually weak! We can learn (the Law, Scripture, the instruction of our parents, many other influences) to know right from wrong and we can learn to do (choose) right according to those influences. That's a righteousness of a sort--one that the scripture describes as filthy rags. We can also choose to follow our baser instincts (usually with the help of many other influences which 'cause' us choose this path). Without any influence (something causing) towards 'good', this would be all of our choice, and one we cannot help but make.
What the Spirit of God does is begin to change our 'self' (mind, heart) from within. He does this by 'causing' us to die to it. Man can't choose this righteousness. Man is not able to choose it, and it is not on our 'list of choices' in the first place. He has to be CHOSEN for this. (We did not choose Him--He chose us and dragged us to Him). Once we are, then the Spirit of God IN us begins to become the paramount 'cause' in making us in all ways like Christ. The same Law, scripture, instruction, correction, reproof, grace, influence--JUDGEMENT--and above all LOVE, now has a different purpose--to mold us into the Image of His Son.
Religion wants everybody to 'be good and do good'--ain't gonna happen, ain't never happened. The Spirit of God IS good and DOES good.
That's about the best way I can put it, Kenny. If you want scripture, I got it. :D
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ouch!
thanks for the scipture and the word, i will continue to recieve correction.
Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
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Hello everyone, I think you have all hit a little nerve in me somewhere, thankyou. I know I can see something, but it is so fuzzy still, but I do know it is there. I can only asked for your patient with me. There are probably others that may have the same feelings as I do, I sure hope that I am not alone on this, I can only hope that the questions`s I have and the answer`s you all give will help someone else, and hopefully me as well.
Bless you all. Ricky
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God 'caused' all of us to be in the condition Marques described. Can't be a greater 'cause' than the fact we were created carnal and spiritually weak! We can learn (the Law, Scripture, the instruction of our parents, many other influences) to know right from wrong and we can learn to do (choose) right according to those influences. That's a righteousness of a sort--one that the scripture describes as filthy rags. We can also choose to follow our baser instincts (usually with the help of many other influences which 'cause' us choose this path). Without any influence (something causing) towards 'good', this would be all of our choice, and one we cannot help but make.
What the Spirit of God does is begin to change our 'self' (mind, heart) from within. He does this by 'causing' us to die to it. Man can't choose this righteousness. Man is not able to choose it, and it is not on our 'list of choices' in the first place. He has to be CHOSEN for this. (We did not choose Him--He chose us and dragged us to Him). Once we are, then the Spirit of God IN us begins to become the paramount 'cause' in making us in all ways like Christ. The same Law, scripture, instruction, correction, reproof, grace, influence--JUDGEMENT--and above all LOVE, now has a different purpose--to mold us into the Image of His Son.
Religion wants everybody to 'be good and do good'--ain't gonna happen, ain't never happened. The Spirit of God IS good and DOES good.
That's about the best way I can put it, Kenny. If you want scripture, I got it. :D
And there is no better way to say it... I guess ;D
Dave, can you PM me the scriptures?
Thanks!
-Mike