bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: ciy on September 29, 2007, 01:53:24 AM
-
Here is a good question that maybe all of you know the answer, but I just started to ponder it and it is really amazing when you realize the depth of the meaning.
Who is the first person in the world to repent over the crucifixion of Jesus?
Now you probably know the answer, but that is not the end of it. Ponder the answer and realize what it means. Ray touched on this in one of his writings, but think about it. The first person to repent over the crucifixion of Jesus was the first person to realize that he is the one who caused Jesus to be crucified. He realized that Jesus was an innocent man and died because of him. Just as we must come to realize that we are that same person and we are the one who crucified Jesus. Only when you are really hemmed up with the truth and no where else to go will it really sink in that you are the one that forsake Jesus. You are the one that sold him out and even kissed him on the cheek so that the princes of the world would approve of you and you could become a prince of this world. Just because you thought you could become a prince of this world and get power now, you sold out Jesus.
Judas sold out Jesus and repented before Peter, John, James, etc realized what was happening. Why? Because he was the first one to become the prodigal son and forsake his father for immediate glory in this world, or at least he is the first one that realized it.
Amazing stuff. God's way of communicating is awesome.
CIY
-
Hello ciy
Here are some points to add regarding this topic quoting Ray in blue font :
Have you never read where Judas "REPENTED [same word used where Jesus preached "repentance" to enter into the Kingdom] for the evil crime he had committed (Matt. 27:3 & Matt. 3:2)? http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4632.0.html
.... he lost his standing as a apostle when he killed himself. He couldn't very well serve as an apostle from the grave. He certainly felt bad about what he had done, which shows a conscience. On the other hand, he was a coward to face his sins like a man, and took what was to him the easier way out. He will come up in judgment, and all the carnality left will be burned out by God's consuming spiritual fire.
God be with you,
Ray http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
That’s the sequence. And repentance is where you accelerate this. All through your life you learn to mature, learn to operate in society, learn to obey the laws of the higher powers and so on…stopping at stop signs, staying under the speed limit etc….you do all these things, which are admirable. We should do them. But there comes a time when you have to just stop doing good things and repent of who and what you are. And then you will start to make real progress.
We sin, God forgives it.
We repent, God removes it.
That’s the way it’s done and it will be done that way with every human being. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
What I find interesting is that Judas shows he had a conscience as Ray points out yet he will experience the LOF because he had not yet matured to the standard height of Christ. Jesus did not take his own life in suicide. He lay it down and was murdered. I do not see Judas as the closest to the image of Christ or the first in the line of salvation. He might be among the first to be cast into the LOF.
Just my thoughts.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Arcturus
I did not mean he was first in line of salvation. He was the first to repent when he realized he was the main one who caused Jesus to be crucified. He was not faithful to the end. I believe that will be purged out of him in LOF.
I believe that we must realize that we are Judas. That we are the one who crucified Jesus. When we do we will repent like many that are on this forum, but will we stay faithful to the end like Jesus or will we lose our faith and not be faithful to the end going back to the way of flesh.
Like you quoted:
We sin, God forgives it.
We repent, God removes it
I think it is an amazing point to realize that you are the one who crucified Jesus and when you truly realize it then you will want to kill the beast in you that caused you to crucify Him.
CIY
-
I always felt sorry for Judas, because he was remorseful, and like Ray said, took the easier way out. I wonder what he thought would happen if he stuck around, and why did he think suicide was the only way for him? Anyway, I think perhaps he became a type or parable of those who are running the race, and then when adversity strikes, they fall away.(please God, keep us!) Or like you say CIY, which is even closer to home, whenever we sell Jesus out so that the princes of the world will approve of us, we betray Him. That is too easy to do, and look at the imagery of what this looks like to God:
Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.
Not nice.
-
It is all as God has planned that Judas ended his life when he did!
As Craig so astutely observed in the Force Thread regarding how Peter denied knowing Jesus Craig points out : There is no doubt in my mind that if the same circumstances would have happened to Peter later in life he would have had a different answer.
Peter cried bitterly but God preserved his faith through his trial and brought Peter into repentance, humility and His Grace. Judas will experience the same influence that will bring him to repentance, humility and saving Grace and Judas too will learn righteousness.
It was not planned for Judas to go find Jesus and apologise and seek forgiveness. Judas will be saved through the Lake of Fire but just think how delighted he will be to see Jesus Christ risen and triumphant over the world which I believe Judas aspired to see in a much more carnal way when Jesus walked on the earth.
Just my thoughts.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
I always felt sorry for Judas, because he was remorseful, and like Ray said, took the easier way out. I wonder what he thought would happen if he stuck around, and why did he think suicide was the only way for him? Anyway, I think perhaps he became a type or parable of those who are running the race, and then when adversity strikes, they fall away.(please God, keep us!) Or like you say CIY, which is even closer to home, whenever we sell Jesus out so that the princes of the world will approve of us, we betray Him. That is too easy to do, and look at the imagery of what this looks like to God:
Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.
Not nice.
Hello Little Bear,
I also hold a bit of empathy for Judas. He was one of the chosen twelve, yet God's plan for him was to betray Jesus to his accusers. We are very quick to say that Judas will be thrown into the LOF with the rest who are not elect or not in the book of life according to Revelations. How do we know that he is not ultimately one elect. He repented and his remorse was so great that he did himself in. Was he in such mental anguish as will be endured in the LOF. Was his LOF actually being described to us as we see his final acts of despair. Remember that he is still under the old law. In his mind, stoning would be his just punishment[yet not practical to be self inflicted ;-)]
What can be said of those who commit suicide when in an extreme case of mental duress? I do not see how we can be so quick to judge Judas as not utlimately being one of the elect.
Mat 19:28 And, Jesus, said unto them—Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Who is to sit in throne number 12 if Jesus was not referring to Judas?
In my opinion it is not up to me to decide whether Judas is not written in the book of life and to be thrown into the LOF. I am not the final judge.
be blessed
feat
-
Was he in such mental anguish as will be endured in the LOF. Was his LOF actually being described to us as we see his final acts of despair.
That's interesting feat, I never thought of it that way about Judas,
-
Good point Feat, it does make one wonder....
-
We should feel empathy for Judas because Judas is us.
CIY
-
Acts 1:16-18
"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
splagchnon
Thayer Definition:
1) bowels, intestines, (the heart, lungs, liver, etc.)
1a) bowels
1b) the bowels were regarded as the seat of the more violent passions, such as anger and love; but by the Hebrews as the seat of the tenderer affections, especially kindness, benevolence, compassion; hence our heart (tender mercies, affections, etc.)
1c) a heart in which mercy resides
I found it interesting to look into this word and how it is used in other scripture. Look at this:
2 Corinthians 6:11-13
We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide open. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return (I speak as to children) widen your hearts also.
Philippians 1:8
For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 2:1
So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy
Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender feelings of mercy, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering,
Philemon 1:7
For I have derived much joy and comfort from your love, my brother, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you.
1 John 3:17
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
Perhaps this is a clue as to what was going on with Judas in his final hours...
Peace,
Diana
-
Perhaps it is too literal to say we are Judas. Maybe you need to reword this Ciy.
I can relate to the teaching that we are the Beast because the Beast is a spirit.
Judas was a man and he is dead.
We can display the traits of the Beast that was manifested through Judas and every other unregenerate soul who has ever betrayed or denied Christ or left their first love, but to say we are Judas in the absence of clarification through Scriptural witness, may well lead to ideas that are not contained in the Word of God and lead off from the message of Christ and His good news.
As I see this, we are not Adam or Eve. We are not Jesus and never will be. Some will be raised in His likeness but not His sameness. There is one God one First Fruits that is Christ and there are to be brethren in the family of God the Father and Christ His Son. We can not be anyone who has already lived and died yet we certainly may display and receive from Christ His qualites or be put through a struggle like Judas because of our shared weak spiritual condition of carnality.
1 Cor 10 : 13 For no temptation no trial regarded as enticing to sin, not matter how it comes or where it leads has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not COMMON TO MAN ( Could common to man mean carnality? I believe so and here I see the common ground we share with sinful man. )
1 Cor 10 : 11 Now all these things BEFELL THEM by way of a figure as an example and warning to us: they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instruction, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax. (Note: Caps do not mean I am shouting or turning up the volume but are simply entered to show emphasis and draw attention to clarify.)
I believe that we are the unique creation of Christ and we hold unique destinies in Him just like every other soul does that has been created for the purpose of God and His Will. No two snow flakes or finger prints are the same. I do not see that any two souls can be the same yet they can be equally carnal and suffer equal circumstances but they are not mass produced photo copies. God is unique. I believe His work is uniquely fitted for each one of us.
We do have sin in common but in Christ there is nothing common but everything unique, fresh, original and incomparable! I believe we are unique in Christ but the same in our carnality.
we certainly can be like Judas in our betrayals of Christ. We do have the sin of rejecting Christ and having to be dragged by our Father to Him to be restored, healed and regenerated by His Spirit. We all begin in the physical and will be transformed into the Spiritual image and likeness of Christ but that will not mean for me, that we will loose our identity, uniqueness and there in our diversity in Christ will finally be our strength.
Just my thoughts.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Doesn't Ray (and I assume the bible) mention in his writings that Satan actually entered Judas? I think that the result for Judas was the same as when the demon legion entered the pigs and they ran off the cliff. Different method, same result - death. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, which leads to life. I don't think most people ever actually encounter satan (I only recall Eve, possibley Job, Judas, and Jesus. ???) though we all feel the effect of this lier/murderer.
G.
-
Hello Gregor,
Is this the reference in question?
Joh 13:26 Jesus, then, is answering and saying, "He it is to whom I, dipping in the morsel, shall be handing it.Dipping in the morsel, then, He is taking it and giving it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot."
Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."
-
Here are a couple of things Ray has on Judas.
This is from the article 'THE KISS OF DEATH'
http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm -------------------------------------------
Judas was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The apostles saw a sheep—Jesus saw a wolf. What was Judas’ ultimate sheep’s camouflage? Why, wasn’t it a simple, sincere, pure, godly "kiss?" Think again.
"Now he that betrayed Him give them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, the same is He: hold Him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed Him" (Matt. 26:48-49).
You have all seen this drama acted out many times in films—a simple little peck on Jesus’ cheek. Oh really?
The five Scriptures using the word "kiss" from Paul and Peter, always used the Greek word "philema" which means "kiss" and nothing else. In Luke 22:48 we read this:
"But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betray you the Son of man with a kiss [Gk: a simple ‘philema’ kiss]?"
But in Matt. 26:48, we find something totally different. Judas told the elders and chief priest:
"…whomsoever I shall [PHILEO—passionate fondness] kiss, that same is He…"
Judas did not have a "philema" kiss in mind at all. The "kiss" in Matt. 26:48 is a "phileo" kiss, and it means a fond, affectionate, passionate kiss, not a simple "philemo kiss." And the elders and high priest knew the different in these two words. One was a peck on the cheek, but Judas determined to use a more a passionate, huggie huggie kissie kissie display in his attempt to betray Jesus to the devouring and ravaging wolves.
This is really intriguing stuff. Now after Judas tells the priest and elders what kind of a kiss he will give Jesus [a phileo kiss] to betray Jesus, He actually delivers this kiss. And how does he do that? He does it with yet another Greek word for kiss, which is, "kataphileo" mean "to kiss EARNESTLY."
This "kataphileo kiss" is used three other times in Scriptures:
Luke 7:45—"You gave me no kiss [no affectionate ‘phileo’ kiss, Jesus admonishes His disciples] but this woman since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss [‘kataphileo kisses’—earnestly] My feet."
Luke 15:20—"And he [the prodigal son] arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him [earnestly and passionately with a ‘kataphileo kisses’]."
Acts 20:37—"And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him [with ‘cataphileo kisses’ of great passion and earnest]."
Is it not abundantly clear that this super emotional use of hugs and kisses was used only on the most RARE occasions of deep and profound emotional circumstances? But this is not proper conduct for everyday behavior. See these over-pious charlatans for what they are. Be suspect of those who use super-pious and sanctimonious hugs and kisses every day of the week.
Now to the Judas Kiss of Death:
"And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Master; and KISSED HIM."
The Greek is "kisses"—multiple kisses, with ‘kataphilio kisses, just as we find in every single use of this word in Scriptures I showed above.
No, Judas did not betray Jesus with a peck on the cheek; he deceitfully delivered a "huggie huggie kissie kissie, fraudulent hugs and KISSES OF DEATH!
What must we learn from all this? Whenever we pretend to be Christ-like but it’s all a charade, we too are guilty of giving Christ a Judas kiss of death. What a disgusting display of the carnal mind and flesh, Judas has left us. Some have vengeance in their heart, others vanity, others bitterness and hatred, and yet others uncontrollable sins of the flesh, but they try to camouflage their evils with a plethora of hugs and kisses to all.
Don’t be afraid to hug; don’t be afraid to kiss, but beware of such phony displays of pious emotions, as they could be your "KISS OF DEATH."
A spiritual hug to you all, from my heart,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html ----------------
Dear Harry:
Well, for one thing, he lost his standing as a apostle when he killed himself. He couldn't very well serve as an apostle from the grave. He certainly felt bad about what he had done, which shows a conscience. On the other hand, he was a coward to face his sins like a man, and took what was to him the easier way out. He will come up in judgment, and all the carnality left will be burned out by God's consuming spiritual fire.
God be with you,
Ray
-
Hi all,
CIY I very much appreciate what I took to mean your figurative/spiritual we are the one who crucified Jesus as it seems to me to be addressed by:
James 2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
This verse is used by Ray in 'Repentance Parts 1 and 2' to show that we are communally involved, per this scripture, in the hideous and gross acts of criminals. Ick :-X but true.
I am especially intrigued by feat's to Little Bear: Was he (Judas) in such mental anguish as will be endured in the LOF. Was his LOF actually being described to us as we see his final acts of despair.
Certainly worth a thought or two, and further:
In my opinion it is not up to me to decide whether Judas is not written in the book of life and to be thrown into the LOF. I am not the final judge.
Quite rightly brother because...
John 5: 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. ;)
AND GOOD QUESTION FEAT:
Who is to sit in throne number 12 if Jesus was not referring to Judas?
Unless it is for his replacement apostle. (??)
Thanks to all!
Janice
-
What I find interesting Kat is that repentance is not the removal of the sin.
A person may repent of having lived a sinful life in the last breath of their life and still have to face the lake of fire. Just like a person can accept Christ and falsely believe they are saved by a sinners prayer.
We have to obey Christ and that is the fruit of repentance I believe.
As Ray notes : Ray http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
From the excerpt on the Kiss of Death teaching you posted Kat, I find it interesting to compare between Peter and Judas. Peter denied knowing Jesus. Judas used his knowledge of Jesus to betray Him. Is not Christiandom doing the same thing as Judas? I think it is. As for Peter, he was scared, humbled, cried bitterly and then was strengthened and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. This same encounter with the Spirit of Christ caused much the same thing to happen in the lives of Job, Isaiah Peter and Saul.
Only the Spirit of Christ can defeat the Beast. Perhaps this is the meaning of John 16:33 I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have peace and confidence. In the world you have tribulation and trials and distress and frustration: but be of good cheer, take courage: be confident, certain,undaunted! For I have overcome the world.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
I can see your insight and as usual from you it is strong.
Regarding Judas and the first resurrection my understanding is Judas did not receive the holy spirit in his life. I do not think Judas was with the disciples when Jesus breathed on them the holy spirit. I do not think Judas was at pentecost when the holy spirit came down as fire from the heavens. Without the holy spirit we cannot be begotten or born again into the first resurrection.
Askseeknock
Charles
-
Thank you for adding that light to this discussion and building us all up in the Truth and Knowledge of Christ and His Spirit.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
I can see your insight and as usual from you it is strong.
Regarding Judas and the first resurrection my understanding is Judas did not receive the holy spirit in his life. I do not think Judas was with the disciples when Jesus breathed on them the holy spirit. I do not think Judas was at pentecost when the holy spirit came down as fire from the heavens. Without the holy spirit we cannot be begotten or born again into the first resurrection.
Askseeknock
Charles
Hello Charles,
I has been a while. All I can say is wow. How disappointing for anyone, including Judas and us who were not at that meeting where the Christ "breathed on them the Holy Spirit." Perhaps since we weren't there just as Judas was not there we also cannot "be born again into the first resurrection." I surely hope that you don't believe that. I don't
I see no real proof but only your opinion that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit. I do not disagree that he might not have received it. I just see no proof that he didn't
Here is another piece of what I might consider more damaging evidence to consider:
Joh 17:10 And Mine all are Thine, and Thine Mine. And I have been glorified in them."
Joh 17:11 And no longer am I in the world, and they are in the world, and I to Thee am coming. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, in which Thou hast given them to Me, that they may be one, according as We are."
Joh 17:12 When I was with them in the world, I kept those whom Thou hast given Me in Thy name, and I guard them, and not one of them perished, except the son of destruction, that the scripture may be fulfilled."
The judges in this case have still not convinced me that Judas will not be one one those in the "first" resurrection. He very well might not be. The judges and we also don't know for sure whether we will be so graced in His mercy.
Well, I guess I have seen the discussion, even added some damaging evidence of my own and am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the judges are right. Even so, I still believe it is not their call to begin with.
be blessed
feat
-
Hello Harryfeat
I find it stange that you omit the following scripture in your sumation that says you find no proof that Judas did not recieve the Holy Spirit. Here is the proof. Here is Jesus Christ speaking to the Father....
John 17 : 12 While I was with them I kept and preserved them in Your Name, in the knowledge and worship of You. THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I guarded ( Did not Jesus pray for Peter adivsing him that Satan desired to sift him like wheat but that He Jesus Had prayed for Peter? ) and protected (When Satan entered Judas did Jesus protect him? No. He bid him to do quickly what he had to do.) and not one of THEM has perished or is lost EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION JUDAS ISCARIOT - the one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus said it. It is true. Those who God gives, drags to Christ, are those God selects for Christ to conform to His image by and through His Spirit. Those who are NOT dragged or given to Christ BY GOD, (not given by the preacher, the Priest, an eleven second sinners prayer or the representitive of Harlot Babylon,) but given by God...are those for whom Jesus prayed.
I have no reason to believe that Judas will not have to face the LOF White Throne judgment to be purified and sanctified and eventually saved. I bleive the proof of this is in the statements recorded for us in the word of God and spoken to God by Christ Himself.
Peace be to you
Arcturus
-
Hello Harryfeat
I find it stange that you omit the following scripture in your sumation that says you find no proof that Judas did not recieve the Holy Spirit. Here is the proof. Here is Jesus Christ speaking to the Father....
John 17 : 12 While I was with them I kept and preserved them in Your Name, in the knowledge and worship of You. THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I guarded ( Did not Jesus pray for Peter adivsing him that Satan desired to sift him like wheat but that He Jesus Had prayed for Peter? ) and protected (When Satan entered Judas did Jesus protect him? No. He bid him to do quickly what he had to do.) and not one of THEM has perished or is lost EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION JUDAS ISCARIOT - the one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus said it. It is true. Those who God gives, drags to Christ, are those God selects for Christ to conform to His image by and through His Spirit. Those who are NOT dragged or given to Christ BY GOD, (not given by the preacher, the Priest, an eleven second sinners prayer or the representitive of Harlot Babylon,) but given by God...are those for whom Jesus prayed.
I have no reason to believe that Judas will not have to face the LOF White Throne judgment to be purified and sanctified and eventually saved. I bleive the proof of this is in the statements recorded for us in the word of God and spoken to God by Christ Himself.
Peace be to you
Arcturus
Hello Arcturus,
Please be at peace.
I respect and take into consideration your judgments and opinions but view them only as such. You might be right about Judas or you might be absolutely wrong. I for one don't really know his destiny. Given scriptural evidence I also see that it seems to make a strong case in favor of your opinion. However, how do we know that the extreme mental agony which drove him to madness and suicide was not his LOF.
We all sin. We are hopefully going through our LOF in this life. Who is to say that Judas torment is not a shadow of this?
I would caution you to read and understand a post before you start making false accusations. If you go back to my post you will note that not only did I quote john 17:12 but I also said it was more damaging evidence to consider and even underlined the part of John 17:12 pertaining to Judas.
The verses I quoted were from CLV and didn't include the additions of your post. John 17 seems to me to be Jesus prayer to the Father to keep safe those apostles left in the world. I didn't discern from those verses that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death. He may not have for all I can tell. However, the whole message of John 17 tells me that Judas was truly one of the chosen. He was loved just as the other apostles. Jesus kept him like the others until the devil entered him. No Jesus didn't stop it because it had be foredestined to be. Reading that one of them "perished" didn't say that he did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death. Judas was no longer alive with the rest of the apostles to go and preach the gospel.
You may be right in your interpretation that it means he died without receiving the spirit but then again you may be wrong.
be blessed,
feat
-
Hello feat
You ask : how do we know that the extreme mental agony which drove him to madness and suicide was not his LOF. We all sin. We are hopefully going through our LOF in this life.
I do not believe that a tormenting end to life is the fix for a life time of rebellion and ungodliness. I do not believe that God instills His Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge, Council, Understanding, Power and Love, without fruit.
To say or believe or teach that God terminates life in a anguished and horrible way as a means for us to avoid repentance, separation from sin and finally sanctification and through judgment righteousness, is to say, for me, that God is a terrorist and forces through pain, our submission and servitude to Him. That for me is heresy. God is a God of freedom not bondage.
On the surface, this assumption that pain in the last phase of life is Gods way of ending our sins and changing our souls is without substance or support of the Scriptures as I understand this. I do concure that it is a temptation to think that the suffering that some endure in the end of their lives is judgement but I also see that the scriptures also say as you sow so you reap. If we reap bad does that mean we learn good?
For me, Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas was destined for destruction. The children of God are not going to experience the wrath of God. That's Gods Word. It is fact not fiction. It is Truth not deception. It is the way of God not man. It is how God has expressed Himself through His Word and this is either received or rejected depending on which way we see is wiser, holier or better suited to us.
I did not make false accusations. I answered your post. Indeed I did miss that you had quoted John 17 : 12 but let me ask you, Why do you consider John 17 : 12 as you say as "damaging evidence to consider "? I do not find the word of God damaging evidence but enlightening instruction.
You say regarding John 17 : 12 I didn't discern from those verses that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death.
Let me understand this. So if I am to take what you say above as realistic or as the truth, then the next conclusion I would come to from what you say is that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you can commit suicide and handle your issues like a carnal man? Is this your point? This is not a judgment it is a question that arises out of this as a conclusion that perhaps you would like to defend or explain. I can not defend it or explain how a person can receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and then kill themselves. Also if you return to the teachings about salvation. Non are saved in this life time. Non are born again but some can recieve the Holy Spirit not in full but in part and there after the life of trial and testing and judgment occures as it did with Paul who ran and finished his race. Paul did not commit suicide either. Thy shalt not kill. Who are Gods children. Those who do the commands of Christ and will of the Father. Death is not the Will of the Father. Death is the last enemy that will be conquered.
You say of Judas that : Jesus kept him like the others until the devil entered him.
That is NOT what Jesus said to God feat. Jesus did not say to God that He had kept all until Satan entered Judas. Was Satan more powerful than God? Could Jesus not have done anything for Judas to prevent Satan from possessing him? Did Jesus not KNOW at the supper who was going to betray Him? Did not Jesus KNOW why He came to the earth and exactly what would happen? Was He not aware of His destiny and Reason and Purpose and Plan of His Father even as a child when He told His parents that He was about His Fathers business?
No feat. I can not believe that Judas was at the last moment let go by Jesus and that Judas was pulled straight by God imposing on him his horrible way out of his treachery, cowardace that no doubt was his spiritually weak nature that for me must have continued to be all through out his life that culminated in his self annihilation and murder turned on himself. Show me a scripture that proves this is in error. Show me where Jesus said to God that He lost hold of Judas and that Judas was not from the beginning and to fulfill the scriptures, the betrayer. I believe Judas was hardened and spiritually weak and blind and had the literal experience of walking with God's Son yet being deaf and blind to His Truth Judas thought as a man, acted as a man and died as a man...a carnal man. Jesus thought as God acted like God and died like God and that is the expression of the Holy Spirit, not Judas and the way Judas died.
Jesus did not commit suicide to lay down His life and not use His Power to stay alive. Judas did not lay down his life he took it himself.
Judas will finally come to see this and know this and repent and be saved but I do not think or see or believe he caught on as he hung himself and took his last breath and I do not believe Judas will experience deliverance until he is woken again by Jesus wherein he will receive his real education in righteousness and judgment at the White Throne Judgement.
Have we not been told that it is by their fruits you shall know them?
These thoughts are MY thoughts and if you see them as judgment or opinion then what can I do and what can I say... they are not....they are my thoughts and I am happy to share them. They did come about because of your post so thanks.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi all,
Sorry if this has been said before but in a hurry >:(
But Judas could NOT have had the HS in him, because Christ had not yet rose to the FATHER. The comforter was sent after His resurrection. I may be wrong but i thought ...... or am i assuming that Judas died before Christs resurrection.
God Bless
Sandie
-
I think the main point about Judas is the spiritual aspect of the word. The parable that we are all judas at some point in our lives. That we all betray Christ and that we all crucify him. When he realized what he had done and that he had crucified Christ, he could not handle it and committed suicide.
When we realize that we have crucified Christ, we too will kill the old man. We do it just like Judas because we consider the wisdom of the world. By the wisdom of the world it can make sense to turn this man over to the authorities and collect a reward. And so we do the same as we daily do what Martha did in busying herself with worldly matters instead of giving up the world and sitting at Jesus' feet like Mary did. She "chose the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."
Everything in the Word is spiritual and it is all a parable about us.
God is awesome.
CIY
PS - Anyone dying prior to Jesus' death and resurrection could not have the holy spirit to my understanding.
-
Hello feat
You ask : how do we know that the extreme mental agony which drove him to madness and suicide was not his LOF. We all sin. We are hopefully going through our LOF in this life.
I do not believe that a tormenting end to life is the fix for a life time of rebellion and ungodliness. I do not believe that God instills His Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge, Council, Understanding, Power and Love, without fruit.
To say or believe or teach that God terminates life in a anguished and horrible way as a means for us to avoid repentance, separation from sin and finally sanctification and through judgment righteousness, is to say, for me, that God is a terrorist and forces through pain, our submission and servitude to Him. That for me is heresy. God is a God of freedom not bondage.
On the surface, this assumption that pain in the last phase of life is Gods way of ending our sins and changing our souls is without substance or support of the Scriptures as I understand this. I do concure that it is a temptation to think that the suffering that some endure in the end of their lives is judgement but I also see that the scriptures also say as you sow so you reap. If we reap bad does that mean we learn good?
For me, Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas was destined for destruction. The children of God are not going to experience the wrath of God. That's Gods Word. It is fact not fiction. It is Truth not deception. It is the way of God not man. It is how God has expressed Himself through His Word and this is either received or rejected depending on which way we see is wiser, holier or better suited to us.
I did not make false accusations. I answered your post. Indeed I did miss that you had quoted John 17 : 12 but let me ask you, Why do you consider John 17 : 12 as you say as "damaging evidence to consider "? I do not find the word of God damaging evidence but enlightening instruction.
You say regarding John 17 : 12 I didn't discern from those verses that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit before his death.
Let me understand this. So if I am to take what you say above as realistic or as the truth, then the next conclusion I would come to from what you say is that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you can commit suicide and handle your issues like a carnal man? Is this your point? This is not a judgment it is a question that arises out of this as a conclusion that perhaps you would like to defend or explain. I can not defend it or explain how a person can receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and then kill themselves. Also if you return to the teachings about salvation. Non are saved in this life time. Non are born again but some can recieve the Holy Spirit not in full but in part and there after the life of trial and testing and judgment occures as it did with Paul who ran and finished his race. Paul did not commit suicide either. Thy shalt not kill. Who are Gods children. Those who do the commands of Christ and will of the Father. Death is not the Will of the Father. Death is the last enemy that will be conquered.
You say of Judas that : Jesus kept him like the others until the devil entered him.
That is NOT what Jesus said to God feat. Jesus did not say to God that He had kept all until Satan entered Judas. Was Satan more powerful than God? Could Jesus not have done anything for Judas to prevent Satan from possessing him? Did Jesus not KNOW at the supper who was going to betray Him? Did not Jesus KNOW why He came to the earth and exactly what would happen? Was He not aware of His destiny and Reason and Purpose and Plan of His Father even as a child when He told His parents that He was about His Fathers business?
No feat. I can not believe that Judas was at the last moment let go by Jesus and that Judas was pulled straight by God imposing on him his horrible way out of his treachery, cowardace that no doubt was his spiritually weak nature that for me must have continued to be all through out his life that culminated in his self annihilation and murder turned on himself. Show me a scripture that proves this is in error. Show me where Jesus said to God that He lost hold of Judas and that Judas was not from the beginning and to fulfill the scriptures, the betrayer. I believe Judas was hardened and spiritually weak and blind and had the literal experience of walking with God's Son yet being deaf and blind to His Truth Judas thought as a man, acted as a man and died as a man...a carnal man. Jesus thought as God acted like God and died like God and that is the expression of the Holy Spirit, not Judas and the way Judas died.
Jesus did not commit suicide to lay down His life and not use His Power to stay alive. Judas did not lay down his life he took it himself.
Judas will finally come to see this and know this and repent and be saved but I do not think or see or believe he caught on as he hung himself and took his last breath and I do not believe Judas will experience deliverance until he is woken again by Jesus wherein he will receive his real education in righteousness and judgment at the White Throne Judgement.
Have we not been told that it is by their fruits you shall know them?
These thoughts are MY thoughts and if you see them as judgment or opinion then what can I do and what can I say... they are not....they are my thoughts and I am happy to share them. They did come about because of your post so thanks.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Hello again Arcturus,
As I said before, you might very well be right in all you opinions. I have no real solid evidence that they are wrong. Neither do I believe your opinions are indeed fact. There is also the general belief that anyone who died before Christ could not have the Holy Spirit in them. The scripture telling us about John the Baptist being lesser in the kingdom sort of supports that. I think that maybe not everything is as cut and dried as that would lead us to believe. I am a skeptic, what can I say. [BTW which apostle is the twelfth throne for in your opinion? see my prior posts.]
Having said that, I thought what you had to say when I read it the first time was well thought out and had scriptural support for your interpretations. I didn't see it as definitve proof but certainly persuasive. In a courtroom you would probably win the case that Judas will probably be thrown into the lake of fire [LOF]. However, as we know, there are many cases of innocent men found guilty. When I said my evidence was damaging, I meant to the carnal case of law where we are judging whether Judas will be an "early riser"
There are a couple of points which I find need addressing though I am not sure this is the place.
I did not make false accusations.
You did indeed falsely accuse me of omitting john 17:12. You were so eager to counter my post that you didn't even bother to understand it. I would be impossible to miss the intent of the verses I posted if you were truly reading my post for understanding my point of view. You can deny this all you want but is there for all to see. It is one of several bullying tactics that you use which I find difficult to deal with. This is one of several reasons why I am reluctant to discuss topics with you.
I do not believe that a tormenting end to life is the fix for a life time of rebellion and ungodliness. I do not believe that God instills His Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge, Council, Understanding, Power and Love, without fruit.
I completely agree. However, let's review Judas situation. If he had indeed lived a lifetime of rebellion and ungodliness, how would he come to be a follower of the Christ. Indeed, if as you say Judas was a total reprobate, how did he come to have extreme feelings of remorse? Where did this torment come from lest it be through the grace of God. Is the the Holy Spirit that causes a change in our hearts to recognize our transgressions and feel remorse. If not then how does it happen?
What happens to our minds when we experience extreme cases of euphoria or the other extreme depression and self torment? I can't answer for either case.
You seem to think that Judas suicide was a willful act of a sane man who was acting against the will of God. What if he was in such a state of torment and depression that his thoughts were not logical at all. The courts have a legal plea of temporary insanity. Whatever happened it was God's will that was done. Jesus will be the judge.
To say or believe or teach that God terminates life in a anguished and horrible way as a means for us to avoid repentance, separation from sin and finally sanctification and through judgment righteousness, is to say, for me, that God is a terrorist and forces through pain, our submission and servitude to Him. That for me is heresy. God is a God of freedom not bondage.
I neither said that nor believe it to be true. It is a heresy invented in your own mind. You present a straw man argument you invented in an attempt to insinuate that I am a heretic. Another of your bully techniques.
On the surface, this assumption that pain in the last phase of life is Gods way of ending our sins and changing our souls is without substance or support of the Scriptures as I understand this. I do concur that it is a temptation to think that the suffering that some endure in the end of their lives is judgment but I also see that the scriptures also say as you sow so you reap. If we reap bad does that mean we learn good?
I agree that it is not the expected norm as shown by
scripture. On the other hand neither was Judas. Just what exactly do you think the LOF will be? What is this torment that is to be endured?
For me, Jesus did not pray for Judas. Judas was destined for destruction. The children of God are not going to experience the wrath of God. That's Gods Word. It is fact not fiction. It is Truth not deception. It is the way of God not man. It is how God has expressed Himself through His Word and this is either received or rejected depending on which way we see is wiser, holier or better suited to us.
I agree that Jesus prayer appears to be for those apostle "left in the world." However, when I read the first parts of John17, Jesus did not exclude Judas until the point where He said He kept them all safe except one. Of course Jesus knew of the events to occur. As I read it, Judas was a chosen one who fell, then felt guilt, got remorseful through God's grace and help of the Holy Spirit, then being weak he was he became extremely tormented by his guilt and went insane.
All I am saying is that I don't know how Jesus will deal with the insane. I don't think it is necessarily a ticket to escape LOF.
Let me understand this. So if I am to take what you say above as realistic or as the truth, then the next conclusion I would come to from what you say is that if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you can commit suicide and handle your issues like a carnal man? Is this your point?
Your conclusion is erroneous and no that is not my point as I have previously pointed out.
This is not a judgment it is a question that arises out of this as a conclusion that perhaps you would like to defend or explain. I can not defend it or explain how a person can receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and then kill themselves.
It is your conclusion not mine. You seem to think that there has to be some demonstrable fruit for you to see rather that spiritual realizations on Judas part that allow him to see his error. We do not know his heart or mind as God does. You probably have not met many people with mutliple personalities or extreme cases of bipolar dysfunction. I am not saying Judas had these problems but am only using them as an example of how the mind can become unstable.
Non are saved in this life time. Non are born again but some can recieve the Holy Spirit not in full but in part and there after the life of trial and testing and judgment occures as it did with Paul who ran and finished his race. Paul did not commit suicide either. Thy shalt not kill. Who are Gods children. Those who do the commands of Christ and will of the Father. Death is not the Will of the Father. Death is the last enemy that will be conquered.
Paul is a fairly good example of a sort of betrayal then God called him. Judas was an example of God called him and he betrayed. I don't think that the end results clearly speak to whether Judas thought that he had to kill himself for his crime or Paul's martyrdom are even comparable. I gIve you there verses to consider along with your own.2Co 5:10 [ESV}For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. ...and...
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Have we not been told that it is by their fruits you shall know them?
Yes we have and it certainly is evident in a lot of cases.
These thoughts are MY thoughts and if you see them as judgment or opinion then what can I do and what can I say... they are not....they are my thoughts and I am happy to share them. They did come about because of your post so thanks.
I definitely understand that Arcturus, and I accept them in the spirit given.
I don't really have much else to say about this other than I don't see things as black as and as white as I get the impression you do. I hope I have addressed all that you wished me to comment on.
be blessed
feat
-
feat I will quote you in black font italics. I respond in blue font.
You did indeed falsely accuse me of omitting john 17:12.
You omitted this scripture in your follow up post. I conceded that I did miss that you had entered it into your earlier posts.
You were so eager to counter my post that you didn't even bother to understand it.
I object to that slanderous assumption.
I would be impossible to miss the intent of the verses I posted if you were truly reading my post for understanding my point of view.
Your point of view is not my point of view.
You can deny this all you want
I am big enough to admit that I missed that you had indeed entered the scripture you skipped out in your follow up post. My nature is not one that will deny this as you falsely accuse me of.
but is there for all to see. It is one of several bullying tactics that you use
I object to this slanderous accusation.
which I find difficult to deal with.
I contend with no one who prefers to go their own way think their own thoughts and rationalise their own understanding. It is a condition of carnal man not to want to be wrong even if it is God#s Word that is speaking. The authority is not mine and the words I speak are those that God has inspired through His Word not my opinions of His Word or my understanding of His Word or my reliance on what is my anchor that is the Truth of His Word that I share here in the Forum as my thoughts.
This is one of several reasons why I am reluctant to discuss topics with you.
I will go more easy on you in future knowing that you feel so vulnerable and reluctant to express your views, opinions and beliefs because you think I am the big bad bully. Will you think that if I disagree with you or if my "views" counter your own comfort zones or opinions?
You ask : let's review Judas situation. If he had indeed lived a lifetime of rebellion and ungodliness, how would he come to be a follower of the Christ.
Simple. Take a carnal man and cause him to seek the power fame and glory. I heard John Hage tonight say as he preached to his audience in Israel, that the reason Jesus cried " My God My God, why have You forsaken me? " according to Hage, was because God in that moment looked AWAY from His Son because Jesus Christ BECAME SIN! It is a matter of FACT not FICTION, OPINION OR CONJECTURE that Jesus while on earth in the body, that some 10 percent of the daily conversation of Jesus consisted of Old Testament words quoted literally. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 as he cried out in fulfilment for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear that He is the Son of God crucified wherein that same Psalm expressed His agony. Here is the the Word of God Psalm 22 : 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is softened with anguish and melted down within me. 15. My strength is dried up like a fragment of clay pottery; with thirst my tongue cleaved to my jaws; and You have brought me into the dust of death. 16. For like a pack of dogs they have encompassed me; a company of evildoers has encircled me, THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND MY FEET. You ask about Judas. Of all the Apostles Judas was the treasurer. He kept the money. John 13 : 29 Some thought that since Judas had the MONEY BOX Jesus was telling him, Buy what we need for the Festival, or that he should give something to the poor.
The Word of God is Spirit and is Truth. Acts 1 : 18 Now this man (Judas) obtained a piece of land with the money paid him as a reward for his treachery and wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle of his body and all his intestines poured forth. 19 And all the residents of Jerusalem became acquainted with the facts,so that they called the piece of land in their own dialect - Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.
Now why do you doubt? You ask : if as you say Judas was a total reprobate, how did he come to have extreme feelings of remorse? ....Where did this torment come from....
Your answer is again not opinion but is in the Word of God 2 Cor 7 : 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to SALVATION ( like Peter experienced...Godly grief and bitter tears) and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret: ( that is the deliverance from evil never brings regret ) but WORLDLY GRIEF the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world is deadly, breeding and ENDING IN DEATH. ( remember Judas kept the MONEY)
Can you see Judas in this description or do you still prefer to doubt? You build a fiction and base it in what you believe I SEEM to think. You say : You seem to think that Judas suicide was a willful act of a sane man
There is no such thought in my mind that Judas was either sane or acting from free will. I believe he was acting out of carnality and a spiritually weak heart that acted and failed to achieve his purpose and plan.
You continue to build on this seeming thought that you attribute to me by saying that I think Judas, quote : who was acting against the will of God.
Of course Judas was acting against the Will of God. God Wills that non should perish. Judas is and was destined to perish and God Will save him in the end. Judas was right in the Plan of God. God's Will and God's Plan are two very different things. Perhaps someone else here in the Forum can direct you to some teachings on this topic. It is well worth reviewing and is pivotal to grasping Truth and understanding the Wisdom of God. As for me... I am doing what I can here just answering you.
You say : You present a straw man argument you invented in an attempt to insinuate that I am a heretic. Another of your bully techniques.
No. My thoughts are not arguments. They are my thoughts. You accuse me of employing a bully technique. Noted. I shall try to tell you what I think with softer tones. I have no need to convince you and neither do I have any motive to get you to agree with me. I simply enjoy putting into writing what I think from the bottom of my soul. Your thoughts motivate my answers and I enjoy discovering and recalling what I have read in the Word of God.
You ask : Just what exactly do you think the LOF will be? What is this torment that is to be endured?
feat the LOF is the second death. We are cautioned by Jesus that we should pray that we are found worthy to escape the things that are coming on the world. Just WHAT is coming on the world but the WRATH of God. Jesus also says that we should pray for the strength to be able to STAND before HIM. what guilt ridden exposed thief and murderer will be able to stand when their evil ways and works are made known before the Lamb of God and His Angels? Only the pure of heart will see God or be able to STAND in HIS Presence don't you think? (Please NOTE....Caps are used for EMPHASIS of what I think and is not used to show I am shouting at you or anyone or in ANY way attempting to demean or belittle anyone. REMEMBER I too am a BRETHREN please! This is NOT a debate but an honest exchange of thoughts without malice. OKAY?)
You say : You seem to think ...
There you go again building on the premise of what you say I SEEM TO THINK.... :D...Lets look at the premise you present then...You present the following : there has to be some demonstrable fruit for you to see
What is so wrong with this feat? By their fruit you shall know them right? Even John the Baptist scolded the Pharasies and asked them who had warned them and to have first the fruit of repentance before he would baptise them. So if John the Baptist is the least born of woman in the Kingdom of God....what should we be doing then if not having a higher standard of appraisal and discernment to the realization and comprehensive insight into knowing how to distinguish good from evil? Why do I think I lost you there? Look at it again. Why are you here on this earth. Why am I here on this earth if not to become the image of the Son of God in His life and in His Spirit. What is His Spirit? His Spirit is of God who knows how to distinguish between good and evil and His Word is sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing assunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART. Heb 4 : 12
rather that spiritual realizations on Judas part
feat I do not believe you have any justification in feeling hurt or bullied that I pay attention to what you are saying. You say and lets recap... that I seem to think there has to be fruit ...rather than spiritual realization on Judas part.
Do you fault me if I see this statement as meaning that you believe you have spiritual realization of Judas part. Are you presenting your views in favor of Judas. Are you acting as Advocate for the down trodden? Is this what you are being caused to do? It seems that way because of your words that contend against me believing in and following the Word of God that says we shall know them by their fruit. What is wrong with that? Why does spiritual realization of Judas part over rule, eclipse or make wrong the way in which we are to discern good from evil by and through the observation of the fruit of the Spirit? Sorry if this sounds like bullying. It is not meant as such so perhaps you can clarify for me why your comment above presents this conclusion. If my thought is wrong then I will indeed be most pleased, delighted and happy for you.
You add to this summation that there is an allowance that prevents or holds back from Judas for seeing his error. :
that allow him to see his error. We do not know his heart or mind as God does. You probably have not met many people with mutliple personalities or extreme cases of bipolar dysfunction. I am not saying Judas had these problems but am only using them as an example of how the mind can become unstable.
the subject of God allowing anything is another subject of teaching that is very important and could also be re addressed because it is pivotal to understanding God and His ways. Already this post is getting entirely too long....
You say : I hope I have addressed all that you wished me to comment on.
I have thoroughly enjoyed responding to you. I hope next time you will not use personal feelings against me to accuse me of being a bully or your reason not to communicate. More exchanges such as these can only be constructive if not reduced to personal assult. I hope you continue to have the courage to bring forth your thoughts and understandings in the light of this Forum which is certainly here to present the Truth of Christ and not the opinions or beliefs that fall outside of what we have learnt through Ray Smith.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)