bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: brothertoall on February 01, 2007, 10:07:13 AM
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I do believe Ray said that the bible is 1 BIG PARABLE.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I could be the only one that has noticed this but depending on the topic of the day many scripture verses have been used. Some seem to use it as meaning literally and others seem to use it as spiritually.I hope I said this right. ???
When are we to descern that it is being used literally or spiritually.According to the above scriptures the word of God is spiritual in meaning and understanding.
I am a little confused.
bobby
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Bobby,
I just read through that paper where he mentions it. I have relooked through the threads and come to a similar conclusion that you are.
Thanks for posting, I will be very interested in what will be posted in this topic.
Have a great day.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Anne I thank God that I am not the only one who has noticed this. You have been a blessing to me this morning and I thank you.
I too want to see what responses are given.
Love to you my sister and friend,
bobby
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Bobby
I agree. I like to continue to seek the spiritual meaning of the Word. The physical almost always leads to "reasoning with our own understanding" and gets us into arguments of the flesh. Thanks.
CIY
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Yes CIY I agree and I have to be honest and I have caught myself or should I say it has been revealed to me that I was tending to be doing that myself.
bobby
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The written word is physical, the Israelites lived physically and had physical examples or shadows of the spiritual, the Old Covenant was a physical, temporary, conditional covenant, physical blessings for obedience,
physical cursing for disobediece and ended in death, the death the Israelite and the death of our saviour. Fulfilled Mat 5;17. only until John Luke 16:16. Mat 11:10-13.
The New Covenant is Spiritual internal of the heart and mind.
By belief, faith, repentance and the Gift of the Spirit.
We are to be led by the spirit not by the physical.
If we have not the Spirit we are no of His
Vic..
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Hi Bobby,
It is not an easy thing to understand, but it is only by His Spirit that we can discern spiritual things.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
When you realize that it is not you who is figuring out these things and it is not you who has discernment in matters, and it is not you who shows any wisdom, but by His Spirit in you that you do all things, then you know you are being guided by His Spirit in you.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thank you Vic and Kat and this I know but why then does scripture usage by those who are lead of the Spirit use it literally at times.
As I said before I have been guilty of this myself. It has happened here many times. if the Word is spiritual then why are we using it in some topics as literal?
That was my question.
For example if you read the prophetic scripture of the old testiment is it not spiritual as well as the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ?
bobby
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I have been re-reading this paper from Ray
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
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Hi Bobby,
The way I see it, is that scripture can be both spiritual and literal.
Some things are only spiritual and some things are only literal,
but a lot of scripture has the physical first and by that you understand the spiritual.
It is not cut and dry one way or the other.
God made the scripture a mystery, so He could reveal it to those He so desires by His Spirit.
Eph 6:19 And pray for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Mar 4:11 And He said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But to those outside, all these things are given in parables
The Bible is like a gaint parable to the whole church, seeing they do not see (Matt. 13:13), that is the way God wants it. It is complicated and a mystery, so God can reveal it to just the few He wants to. And even among the elect there has to be someone to teach.
Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
The apostles were teaching the believers, so they all did not have understanding just because they were a believer. It was given for some to be teachers.
Eph 4:11 And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Well I hope this is of some help.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
Thanks for your two posts. They have cleared up some confusion in my mind. I guess what I was doing was trying to figure out on MY own effort which it was. I forgot the Spirit is who will show me.
Got a question for you Kat, So can a Scripture be pysically interpreted one day and then spritual the next day? Can they be both another day?
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Anne that is a very good question. Does Ray have anything on that and if so where might it be?
bobby
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Hi Anne,
I'm thinking that maybe you can see it physical one day and then spiritual another, if it is in relation to time.
We see things in scripture as only physical one day, before our eyes are opened, and it is a true meaning.
As in keeping the Sabbath, we see it commanded, it is a physical thing we do by going to church.
But on another day, later, our eyes are opened and we see the spiritual, that we are in a sabbath rest all the time,
if Christ is in us.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
v. 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
So it can be looked at physical one day and spiritual another day, in the life of a believer.
I hope I answered that the way you were implying it :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
I like how you said that it could be different one day and change the next day. I have found out in my life that Scripture means different things with difference circumstances and days. Now, the basics to not change, just wanted to make it clear.
I am glad that it can be this way, becuase I was concerned as the way that Scripture was speaking to me was changing. Thanks so much for you reply. It has helped a great deal.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Dosen't every single parable tell a physical story with a much more valuable "Spiritual" meaning?
Longhorn
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But if we are being revealed or have been revealed these truths then why would the use of that scripture be used literally? If the word is spirit then why would,lets say an answer from the mature, be used literally?
I have seen it done here and like I said I have been guilty myself of this. I am far from mature so I guess I know why I have done it but it is confusing to me when I see it come from more mature than many of us here.
Still confused.
bobby
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Why can't they understand?
« on: January 17, 2007, 04:39:45 PM »
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Dear Ray
I was browsing your website for the first time today and got caught up in some of the debate and critiques, and left feeling a bit perturbed. I am an elder in a small local church, and we do our best to live our lives before God and to turn peoples’ heart back to Jesus through relationship, preaching and example in a urban / rural African context. As much as I enjoy intellectual and theological discussion I do not consider myself well studied in scripture. After examining the reasons for my feeling uncomfortable with the lengthy debate which you and your respondents commit to, I came to the conclusion that such matters, although important theologically, are beyond the understanding of most people on earth who have not been exposed to sufficient education or biblical teaching.
I have been blessed with considerable education (not in theology), yet I battle to keep on top of these basic issues that seem to tear at my faith. I happen to enjoy reading and trying to get to the bottom of an issue to form a standpoint, but I can’t imagine that these debates will ever be understood by the majority of people who are uneducated and do not look at life through intellectual lenses (no disrespect intended). Surely the millions of unbelievers that God wants the church to reach will not be persuaded that Jesus is their King by such intellectual debate, especially as it seems to bring division more than unity.
I wonder what the ordinary members of the early church, as described in Acts, did on a day to day basis as they went and preached the word as they knew it. They didn’t get involved in deep theology and extensive debate, but simply preached their testimony and what they had seen, built relationally, and operated with spiritual authority and power as led by the Holy Spirit. This is not a criticism of the debate you stimulate, but an observation. Paul raised a bunch of ‘higher’ theological issues with the churches but I would guess that these were not on the radar of most unbelievers or new converts.
The question I have rolling around in me is why are the very basics of our faith; heaven and hell, salvation and others, subject to so much confusion (in me anyway). Surely God would want these basics to be absolutely clear and not open to debate.
Kind regards
Richard
Dear Richard:
Absolutely, God did not want the masses and multitudes to understand His Truths. That is why Jesus gave all His public ministry through impossible to understand parables that not even the Apostles understood. And that is why God's truths are like great treasures that must be searched long and hard to acquire. Only, "the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10), and that wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with "intellectuality." The entire Christian community of theologians would absolutely laugh anyone to scorn who would suggest that L. Ray Smith is an "intellectual." Be sure to read my opening paper at the top of our home page "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" for a better understanding of this topic, also my paper "Twelve Truths to Understand God's Word." Even Peter confessed that Paul wrote things that for most people were "hard to understand" ( II Pet. 3:16).
God be with you,
Ray
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Thou shalt not commit adultry.
Literal interpretation; having sex with a person who is not your spouse. That is literal everyone understands it as such.
If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart you've commited adultry; that is a spiritual interpretation. And the spritual can go deeper still, and apply to all type of sin. Do you cheat your brother?....No, well have you ever thunk it? Have you ever murdered?.....No, well have you thought about it? I think you can see where I'm going.
Lets use sin as an example,
The spiritual does not lessen the literal interpretation of a sin. Having love and compassion for our fellow man over any sin is a gift from God, if any of us were in that persons position we would be doing the same (we could all be a Hitler). What we can do in this life is to recognize our sins and let Christ work them out of us. We don't have to judge a brother or sister over a sin, but we can know what sin is and help them to overcome it if they want our help, if they don't, then let them know we are there for them if they need us.
These are very deep spiritual subjects and I'm not sure you folks will find an answer that satisfies you here. Nobody is a teacher, especially the mods. We can give our help and our opinion and refer you to Ray's interpretation of topics, but we can't give you all the answers, or any for that matter, about any subject. A more mature member does not mean a more perfect member, they may have a grasp on one topic but wrestle with others. It took me about 18 months for the free will subject to really sink in and if I was questioned over it, there is no way that I feel qualified to teach it to anyone.
I feel that understanding Gods word is a gift that he gives, just like the other spiritual and literal gifts he bestows. If we try to force the understanding on our own then we will fail just like we fail at anything where it is God that needs to work through us.
Blessings
Craig
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Ok but does not adultry have a spiritual truth than the act of doing it? You see i guess what i am getting at here is that do we ourselves use the scripture literally to justify a belief and then maybe use that same scripture to go into a more spiritual meaning.Jesus told the crowd they were an adultress generation, Does that mean they all committed adultry with one another or was He referencing that they were spiritually commiting adultry with God.
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
It seems to me that there is no half truth when it comes to the Word of God. It is either one or the other ,half truths do not make full truths nor do half lies make full truths.
Is this not what babylon has and still does? i have read the papers on bible truths and Ray makes it a point that it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally.
Does anyone out there understand what i am trying to say or ask? Please post a response. it would be nice to hear what others have to say on this issue. the regulars always respond and I am very thankful for that but I would like to hear from some of our other members here.
thank you very much.
bobby
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Is this not what babylon has and still does? i have read the papers on bible truths and Ray makes it a point that it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally.
I'm sure you are right about what you are saying, but for my benefit can you point me to the paper where he states this?
Craig
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Craig I will try and find it but it may take a while. it would be a nice jester and a big help if the Mods also would help me to find this as well as the others viewing this topic.
bobby
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Hi Bobby,
I found a couple of emails that seem to apply to this subject.
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#guidance
[Ray Replies]
Dear Walter:
The level of understanding that I personally possess is not necessarily what your goal should be. You should desire to have the understanding of Jesus Christ.
Now then, is there a "reading list" as you suggest that will give you this understanding? NO.
Will taking courses at a theological seminary (as you suggested) give you this understanding? NO.
Will reading and studying dozens of Bible Dictionaries and Bible Commentaries give you this understanding? NO.
Will reading the Bible ITSELF give you this spiritual understanding. NO
Well where pray tell does it come from? It comes from the Spirit of God IN US--having the very MIND OF CHRIST IN US.
How do we get that? Repent & OBEY the gospel! "A good understanding have all they that DO His commandments." There are hundreds and hundreds of spiritual commandments in the New Testament Scriptures. You must OBEY those commandments. All of my writing are designed to help people better understand this commandments. That's why God has teachers. I personally try to obey ALL OF GODS SPIRITUAL COMMANDMENTS in the New Testament. I repent of my SINS. I BEG God for spiritual understanding and spiritual obedience and spiritual LOVE for God and for all humanity.
Do these things ALL day, EVERY day, and God will give you understanding--I GUARANTEE IT!
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2300.0.html
Dear Lloyd:
It is a little frustrating for me too, that thousands of people have come to me as you are doing, asking me how they can have great faith, freedom from all sins, doubts, financial, and health problems, get saved, understand all Scripture, etc., etc., etc. In other words: "Ray, please explain to me ALL THE MYSTERS OF LIFE in one short email." It can't be done, Lloyd. I have written nearly 2000 pages of material by now, and I doubt that you have read much of it. You want the answers, but you want them neatly packaged in a one page email. It don't happen, Lloyd. Do you think that I woke up one morning and instantly knew all that I know now? I am wrestling with a couple of points right now in the Scriptures. Most wouldn't see the problem if I explained it to them. There are keys (as in Jesus gave Peter "the KEYS to the Kingdom." Unfortunately, He did not spell them out to all of us. Someone recently wrote hundreds of pages of commentary on the Book of Revelation thinking that they had unlocked all the mysteries of Revelation and prophecy. The whole premise of their commentary was totally wrong and unscriptural.
You will never in this life grasp all of the mysteries of God or the Scriptures. But to those who search out her pages like real hidden treasure, God opens up our understanding. I can not give you that in an email. I cannot prove to you that I have the key to all truth. God will have to reveal to you whether the things I teach are true and according to the intent of the writers of Scripture or not. One thing I can and have done over and over again, is show how utterly silly and often evil and unscriptural most of what is taught by Christendom and self-appointed vanity filly prophets of the Scriptures.
As you pray and obey and study, God will open things up to your understand, and at that moment whole sections of revelation will flood your mind. But not all Scripture---just sections of Scripture: here at truth and there a truth, and then they start to all come together and a bit picture presents itself to our spiritual understanding. I get asked this question all day long Lloyd, but only God can give you the answer. All I can do is encourage you to not give up.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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I found this in the http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
Are we to believe that in a few hours Jesus read to them the entire 39 books, 929 chapters, 23,145 verses of the Old Testament, with commentary and explanations? No, of course not. He taught them a principle, a spiritual truth, whereby they could understand all the Scriptures that pertained to Him.
The spiritual resurrected Jesus Christ does not represent the physical house of David, or the physical Tribe of Judah, or the physical nation of Israel. Jesus Christ is Spirit and His words are spirit. "As Jesus is, so are we" means that those who are spiritually (composed of almost exclusively Gentiles in this Church era) are the true Jews—not national Israel and Judah. National Israel and Judah are going into the Great White Throne of Judgment in the second resurrection during the period of the Lake of Fire. They will NOT be grafted into Jesus, the Tree of Life, before then. Jesus fulfilled all that is written in the Law of Moses and all the prophets—it ALL pertains to Jesus, and thus it all pertains to us (‘upon whom the ends of the ages are come,’ I Cor. 10:11).
Everything from Genesis to Revelation pertains to a higher SPIRITUAL meaning than the physical examples, parables, metaphors, allegories, stories and symbols in which they are written. "Let us make man in Our Image" (Gen. 1:26) are words of SPIRIT: "…Surely I come quickly…" (Rev. 22:20) are words of SPIRIT. God does not look like a six-foot man or a five-foot woman. Jesus comes quickly to us, not to the world.
Thanks Kat and this section is only a part of some good stuff.
craig what did you find? Anyone else find anything?
bobby
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I'm looking, the word you used "it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally" throws me, because I can't recall ever seeing that. I remember the things you found, the literal has a higher spiritual meaning, thats what I was trying to show with the adultry post. But I don't recall that all is not to be taken literally.
Still looking
Craig
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Craig you know very well that Ray made the comment THE WHOLE BIBLE IS A PARABLE. I would say that pretty much covers it ALL.I found the email and it is posted below. It can also be found by searching the word "parable". Glad I could help. The word bolding is my doing.
bobby
Parable
« on: December 30, 2006, 06:06:17 PM »
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Hi ray,
Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?
Thanks,
Dave
Dear Dave:
Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell: God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE. Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it? I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!
God be with you,
Ray
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When you ask the question, "when is scripture literal and when is it spiritual," do you mean when is scripture literal when I want it to be literal and when I want it to be spiritual? If that is the real question, then we are all guilty because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit. The answer to this very difficult question has to be found in Christ and in Him alone. The words that I speak to you are spirit. They cannot be seen with the human eye. How many times have we read a chapter or verse and never really understood it. Then one day that same chapter or verse becomes clear as crystal or you see something in that you never saw before? When Peter told Jesus that He is the Christ the Son of the living God, Jesus said flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but My Father which is in heaven.
When we read the scriptures with our mind, we see absolutely nothing but we get deceived and think that we know something and then use it for our own interpretation. But when God reveals it to us it is life and truth. Like the two trees in the garden of Eden, one tree led to their death and the other Tree led to life. It just depends on which tree we eat; we can eat of good and evil or we can eat of life. Jesus said, except you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part in me. How do we eat Him and how do we drink Him? Only one way...in spirit and in truth. Where is that to be found? The words that speak to you, they are spirit and they are truth. The only words that we have from Jesus are the scriptures. But we must be careful because even Satan knows the scriptures and even tempted our Lord with them.
Look at all of us these past months and all that God has revealed to us...are we worthy? No. But for some reason, it pleases our merciful God to reveal them to us by His Spirit. How many thousands have read Ray's papers and have not seen a thing. Blessed are our eyes for we are seeing things that even the prophets desired to look into. May the Lord continue to open our eyes by His Spirit! The literal profits nothing.
In His Name,
Dwight
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Yes, I know Ray stated that (and I agree) but I'm still looking for where he says ""it is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally" or close to it.
I'm searching his revelations emails and papers because he might have said somethig similiar about that book, can't find it yet though.
I've put Ray's entire Lake series into one large pdf file, I'm going to start trying word searches.
Let me know if you find it first.
Craig
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I emailed our question to Ray. Here is his response.
> Ray,
>
> Do you remember stating this in your papers? A member understands that
> you make this statement, and I can't find or remember it.
>
> Literal and spiritual interpretations was discussed.
>
> "i have read the papers on bible truths and Ray makes it a point that it
> is all spiritual and not to be taken Literally."
>
> I know that the literal things have higher spiritual interpritations,
> but does that take away from the literal?
>
> Craig
Craig:
I may have stated something within a certain context, such as the "lake of fire"
is all spiritual and not to be taken literally, but I don't think that I have ever made
such a general blanket statement regarding the whole Bible, even though I have
stated that the whole Bible is one giant parable. I do not believe that Spiritual
Noah, built a spiritual ark, and took spiritual animals aboard, to save them from
spiritual water, and that the ark then rested on a spiritual mountain.
God be with you,
Ray
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Parable
« on: December 30, 2006, 06:06:17 PM »
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Hi ray,
Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?
Thanks,
Dave
Dear Dave:
Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell: God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE. Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it? I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!
God be with you,
Ray
PARABLE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable
bobby
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Bobby,
Was Christ really crucified or is that not to be taken literally?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I am a bit confused though as to what Ray means by "The Whole Bible Is One Giant Parable". I mean Parables are not literally true, so if that's the case, then why take anything in the bible literally? And that includes, God and Jesus and everything else. If they're part of a parable, then they're not literally true, therefore they don't literally exist. Neighter did Paul or Noah or Adam and Eve etc...
Now, I don't think that's what Ray is saying, but I just don't understand what he means by that.
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Sorin,
I can't speak for Ray, but I think all he means is that the whole bible has a deeper spiritual meaning than what most carnal minded people (that included me) can see.
Craig
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Hi Sorin,
I agree with Craig.
I think what Ray means is that every single thing that is in the Bible,
has a spiritual lesson behind it.
But all the spiritual meaning to everything is only revealed to those whom God has given eyes to see it.
Everybody can see the literal reality of thing in the Bible, but only a few can understand these spiritual Truths.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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I am a bit confused though as to what Ray means by "The Whole Bible Is One Giant Parable". I mean Parables are not literally true, so if that's the case, then why take anything in the bible literally? And that includes, God and Jesus and everything else. If they're part of a parable, then they're not literally true, therefore they don't literally exist. Neighter did Paul or Noah or Adam and Eve etc...
Now, I don't think that's what Ray is saying, but I just don't understand what he means by that.
Sorin,
Did you see my question about Christ being crucified? Keeping that in mind what is this verse saying?
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Does this mean we are to begin toting a wooden cross around as we go through our daily routines?
We know that this verse means that our carnal nature is to be crucified with Him, that we die to self so He can live in us.
His death was real and literal our crucifiction is spiritual, this is how it is a parable.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Yeah, that's why I said: " I don't think that's what Ray means by that"
Basically, the whole bible is one giant parable because...... it's written for our admonition and it has a deeper spiritual meaning than just the literal. And basically, we eighter were, or are in {spirutal} Egypt, and God will eventually get us out of there etc...
Basically, all the things that happened in the bible to the Jews, or to the Apostles etc... have to spiritualy happen to us? We have to be {spirtually} blinded on our roads to Demascus and all that? I mean parables, have a messgage, a purpose for telling it. You learn from it. So is that basically what Ray is getting at?
Yes, you got it.
And I understand that the bible has a deeper, spiritual meaning than just what's literaly written in it, but is "parable" { a fictitious narrative} the right choice of words?
There is more to the definition than a "(symbolically) ficticious narrative."
parable 4912
H4912
משׁל
mâshâl
maw-shawl'
Apparently from H4910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; properly a pithy maxim, usually of a metaphorical nature; hence a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse): - byword, like, parable, proverb.
parable 3850
G3850
παραβολή
parabolē
par-ab-ol-ay'
From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
parable 3942
G3942
παροιμία
paroimia
par-oy-mee'-ah
From a compound of G3844 and perhaps a derivative of G3633; apparently a state alongside of supposition, that is, (concretely) an adage; specifically an enigmatical or fictitious illustration: - parable, proverb.
The following are the definitions of the definitions :D
adage
a condensed but memorable saying embodying some important fact of experience that is taken as true by many people [syn: proverb]
maxim
1. an expression of a general truth or principle, esp. an aphoristic or sententious one: the maxims of La Rochefoucauld.
2. a principle or rule of conduct.
metaphor
A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or "All the world's a stage" (Shakespeare).
One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: "Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven" (Neal Gabler).
simile
A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in "How like the winter hath my absence been" or "So are you to my thoughts as food to life" (Shakespeare).
I hope this helps,
Joe
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Bobby you ask :
Does anyone out there understand what i am trying to say or ask? Please post a response. it would be nice to hear what others have to say on this issue.
Here is what I see you are saying:
…….depending on the topic of the day many scripture verses have been used. Some seem to use it as meaning literally and others seem to use it as spiritually…… have been guilty of this myself.
I would not apply the word guilt to this…..that for me is too strong a word besides which it also carries a critical charge for misdemeanor which I do not think applies here. >:(
…..the regulars always respond and I am very thankful for that but I would like to hear from some of our other members here.
Please explain what you mean here Bobby….you are thankful but…..do you mean it is a nice day but the house burnt down or I think you are great but….? I am thankful but......For me the word BUT has a way of cancelling out what preceeds it....What do you literally or spiritually mean by “but….. It is always wonderful to have participation from others who may not feel that they can contribute towards building understanding wisdom and knowledge of God. Just because I have been pretty regular in the Forum does not mean that I think I can give anything of any value from myself. It is only God who can open eyes and minds and only HIS Spirit can give anyone anything of value. I speak literally!
Here is an excerpt that comes to mind for this discussion and I literally hope it helps spiritually!
GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS
A Sermon by:
James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by: L. Ray Smith
RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE
If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.
A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."
And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)
Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:
"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)
"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)
"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)
"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)
Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:
" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).
Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)
This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.
So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:
THE RELATIVE: THE ABSOLUTE:
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10) (Comparing man with God)
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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When you ask the question, "when is scripture literal and when is it spiritual," do you mean when is scripture literal when I want it to be literal and when I want it to be spiritual? If that is the real question, then we are all guilty because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit. The answer to this very difficult question has to be found in Christ and in Him alone. The words that I speak to you are spirit. They cannot be seen with the human eye. How many times have we read a chapter or verse and never really understood it. Then one day that same chapter or verse becomes clear as crystal or you see something in that you never saw before? When Peter told Jesus that He is the Christ the Son of the living God, Jesus said flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but My Father which is in heaven.
When we read the scriptures with our mind, we see absolutely nothing but we get deceived and think that we know something and then use it for our own interpretation. But when God reveals it to us it is life and truth. Like the two trees in the garden of Eden, one tree led to their death and the other Tree led to life. It just depends on which tree we eat; we can eat of good and evil or we can eat of life. Jesus said, except you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part in me. How do we eat Him and how do we drink Him? Only one way...in spirit and in truth. Where is that to be found? The words that speak to you, they are spirit and they are truth. The only words that we have from Jesus are the scriptures. But we must be careful because even Satan knows the scriptures and even tempted our Lord with them.
Look at all of us these past months and all that God has revealed to us...are we worthy? No. But for some reason, it pleases our merciful God to reveal them to us by His Spirit. How many thousands have read Ray's papers and have not seen a thing. Blessed are our eyes for we are seeing things that even the prophets desired to look into. May the Lord continue to open our eyes by His Spirit! The literal profits nothing.
In His Name,
Dwight
Dwight you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you brother. It is the Spirit that will give us the spiritual understanding. Not just in my flesh to pick and choose what scripture I can use to justify my selfish way of thinking. Hey I have a long way to go so prayers would be very much appreciated and I will pray for you all as well.
Arcturus I did not mean anything disrespectfdul or mean by that word "but". I would really like to know what the other members here think. I always enjoy and learn from all here but it just seems that maybe the other members here that seldom post or just read may feel a little intimidated and if I have made any of them feel that way please forgive me.
I do believe that God is working in all of us here and I really would appreciate and be blessed to know what the others are experiencing. I do believe all of us here should want that too.
bobby
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Bobby,
Was Christ really crucified or is that not to be taken literally?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Of course it is literal Joe but I new that before being revealed the truth. It is the Spiritual I now see in all this Joe. Even Babylon knows it was literal but they are not seeing the spiritual.
Romans 8:1-16
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
bobby
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Hi Bobby,
I am glad to hear you that you see that the literal events have an application to understanding the deeper spiritual truths that they illustrate and represent.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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The old covenant was physical, the new covenant is spiritual. The new covenant over rules the old. You must become a new creation in order to see and hear the new. It all is physical until you have eyes to see and ears to hear and then it becomes spiritual to you.
As a man thinkeths in his heart so is he.
First the flesh Adam, translating it in the physical, then the spirit Adam, a quickening spirit. When Jesus came to the wedding and there was not enough spirit or wine then he took the word (water) that they had been disregarded as anything other than water (dead letter) and when Jesus touched it he turned it to wine (spirit). Just like that parable, whatever Jesus says do it and the scriptures will all be turned into spiritual and not some worn out physical meaning.
Hope this is ok to post.
CIY
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Hello ciy,
Of course it was OK to post what you did, thank you.
I do not think that this is an either/or proposition. If we truly have His Spirit within it will manifest itself by the works we do in the flesh. Was there a more spiritual Man that walked the earth than our Lord? Did He manifest His Love with physical works? After Pentecost the apostles became spiritual giants, did they not literally and physically go and preach the Good News as the Spirit led them?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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i believe the spiritual is the literal, because that's where everything is all rooted and/or has it's basis. Hebrews 11:3 - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
i'm not certain to whether or not this goes off of the subject a little bit. But, i hope it adds a little bit of clarity.
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The spiritual is not in exact accordance with or limited to the primary or explicit meaning of a word or text.
When Jesus says the house built on sand will not stand he does not mean this literally he means this spiritually.
What is literal is literal not spiritual and what is spiritual is spiritual not literal. To say that the literal is spiritual is rather like saying that black is white or that day is night.
"Spiritual" does not relate to physical nature or matter. "Spiritual" relates to the spirit that points to deeper more significant meaning that does not rely on academic learning nor is concerned with insignificant details but is exclusively devoted to the nature, thoughts and ways of God.
To illistrate that there is a difference that separates literal and spiritual Paul observes that there are some people that are 2Tim 3 : 7 Ever learing, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Bitter is not sweet and sweet is not bitter.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Friends,
The scriptures are not a Rubic's Cube.
I imagine I will get raked over the coals for this statement, but...
I believe, atleast in my limited understanding, that it is impossible to find a definitive answer to a question such as "When is scripture literal and when is it spiritual?"
Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
But perhaps we can agree on this... that the Word of God is Spiritual in it's entirety.
John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Yet it is comprised of many physical, and many times literal/historical accounts that are given to us to as examples so that we may learn spiritual truths, not by the wisdom of man, but taught and lead of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
1 Corinthians 2:13
which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
While many have stated, including Ray, that "There is nothing you can do physically that will make you spiritual," I believe we can all agree that when the Spirit began to lead us and teach us the truth and when we began to grow spiritually it also began to change the way we lived physically.
The spiritual is light shining into our physical darkness. The two can not coexist in their entirety. The spiritual light in the end will cast out the physical darkness, because the physcial (darkness) cannot comprehend the spiritual (light).
May God shine on each of us as He wills.
Grace and Peace
Josh
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Yet it is comprised of many physical, and many times literal/historical accounts that are given to us to as examples so that we may learn spiritual truths, not by the wisdom of man, but taught and lead of the Spirit.
Josh,
I am seeing this much the same as you, there are many examples of literal sound advice as to living in the physical world, there are also deeper spiritual truths contained in the very same verses. I do not see this as an either/or black/white proposition. Of course the physical meanings/messages do nothing spiritually unless His Spirit reveals these things to us.
Being in the construction industry for the better part of 30 years I can attest to any and all that you do not want to build anything directly on a foundation of sand, building a literal house on a literal rock is a much better way.
Most of us understand the spiritual application to this but the literal is also true in this and other cases.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
P.S. For any of you that have built in Florida even though this is a giant sandbox the soil is compacted and then a 4" to 6" concrete slab is poured over the compacted sand/fill, the concrete becomes the (rock) foundation.
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Hi Joe,
This is some really great discussion, hope no one minds if i bring it back up for other members perusal.
george. ;D
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George,
I am glad you resurrected this thread because this question came to my mind today after reading another more recent thread.
Eileen
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Hi George & Eileen,
I dug up a few emails that pertain to this topic, my apologies in advance if they are repeated in former responses but I don't presently have the time to check it out, I have an appointment I need to get to shortly.
Peace,
Joe
Hi ray,
Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?
Thanks,
Dave
Dear Dave:
More accurately, I have said: "The whole Bible is one giant parable."
By that I mean that virtually nothing is a literal teaching, but a spiritual teaching. From the opening statements concerning "Let us make [be making, or making[ man in Our [spiritual] Image" to "And whosoever will [desires] let him take the water of [spiritual] life freely," the Church has not a clue as to what is being spoken of. Hence, the doctrines of Egypt have replaced the Truths of God's Word. The result is the teaching that God's first plan failed utterly, and plan B doesn't seem to be fairing much better. The whole world is going to hell in a handbasket for all eternity, and there is nothing that God can do to change it or correct it or save humanity. What a crock. A Perfect God does not create eternal failings. All the evils of this modern world are exactly where God foreordained them to be. All is heading for a perfect and flawless and marvelous eternal destiny. "The wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10).
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1944.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4974.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3532.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7582.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6662.0.html
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The entire Word of God is Spiritual. Even the literal stories, like the many different events of the the Nation of Israel, from Moses leading the Hebrews out of Egypt, to David defeating Goliath, to Israel being taken captive by Babylon, to Daniel and the lion's den,... all these historical events also have a Spiritual teaching behind it.
That is... for those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.
Daywalker 8)
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In the beginning there was God and the rest is commentary
Kenny
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This thread was brought back to help answer some questions from others on the forum, please contribute if you can. All the information in the Bible and The Scriptures is not obvious or axiomatic to many people. Just a plea to have a little patience when someone ask, just like others had patience with us when we asked.
george. :)