It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...
I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two ;D
Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.
Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.
They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).
It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.
I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy? ;)), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."
And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.
Ah, Alex. But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.
The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'. One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed. That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment. ;D
It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that. It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang. Though it endeavors to do that as well. It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family.
The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'. That's not what God has planned for us. It's ALL about family. Each in their own turn.
Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN. The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image". That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."
Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?
John 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
mercy peace and love
Kat
Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
mercy peace and love
Kat
Very interesting Kat. Thank you.
I am in agreement that Christ was brought forth from the Father, though it's interesting to me JOHNFROMKENTUCKY in his post stated that Jesus was NOT created. Perhaps BROUGHT FORTH, though it means the same as CREATED, is more accurate in that this is how the scriptures describe Jesus' coming into existence? John your input would be welcome here.
Your final statement was very enlightening to me. I found this particularly helpful in my understanding;
"The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."
I think it goes nicely with what John also said; "The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God."
Very interesting to see how this discussion has evolved over time. I appreciate the clarifications. I think I am in agreement with you guys now.
God bless,
Alex
God is not just a title. God is not a family.
God is One. God is unique. God is special.
How do I know this? The Scriptures.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:6
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:18
And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. Isa 45:21
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:22
Those who have ears, let them hear.
Santgem, if you consider that the Son was "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) then He cannot be eternal, as eternity does not have a beginning. The Son is what God brought forth at the beginning/first of this creation, also He is the Alpha of this creation, the Son is all about this creation.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
The eternal God brought the Son forth/out and by that became the Father and the Son was not with the Father before that or God would not have needed to bring Him forth. Now before/beyond this creation, I have no idea what the Father is/has, but I have no doubt it is very very much more than just this. The Son is for this creation and He was brought forth for that purpose.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?
If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father bright Him back to life.
The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God
How come Jesus be the Son of the living God when he is the living God?
The Father who is the living God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!
The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God
How come Jesus be the Son of the living God when he is the living God?
The Father who is the living God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!
If the above is claimed to be true, then the term 'Father' is equivalent to the term 'Son'; and it is illogical to use both terms. yet the Father is GREATER than the Son.
I think we would all like to think that we got this figured out and and that we understand it. I think there is at least one piece of the puzzle that's missing. And for this reason, we can't thoroughly understand it, much less explain it to others. Just my humble and lowly opinion.
There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”
All the rest is chasing the wind.
Christ is EVERYTHING that the Father is,
.
.
But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS,
When God created Mankind, He breathed into him SPIRIT, and Mankind became a living soul. That's what we are. He did this after declaring intention to "create mankind in Our image." OK, so we are in the 'image' of God. What about US is thus 'like Him?"
Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'? It's a process. We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.
Thank you Dennis,
Please spell for me the other word that Ray referenced with Ekklesia in that bible study. I could not determine it for myself.
Thank you, Indiana Bob
QuoteChrist is EVERYTHING that the Father is,
.
.
But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS,
Rick, do you have Scripture for these 2 comments? If Christ is "everything" that the Father is, then are you saying they are one and the same? I don't believe that they are... the Son had a beginning, when He came forth. So throughout endless eternity what was the Father? Certainly there was something more to what He is than this creation... how/why could He bestow all that He has ever experienced on the Son?
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Rom 11:36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
The Son was brought forth to be God for this creation, that was His beginning, that is His purpose. That does not make Him separate from the Father, He is that part/extension of the Father for this purpose. But I believe there is very much more to the Father than this creation.
John 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'? It's a process. We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.
Only because God calls those things that are not as if they were. I know you know that scripture and the SUM of the Word is truth. Being part way there or 1% there doesn't give us the right to throw all caution to the wind and start confusing others by talking about our process of transformation as if its already complete.
John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.
But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.
But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi microlink, I saw all the Scripture from John, but not one of those say that Jesus is everything that the Father is and the same. Yes He is fully God, with the very nature of the Father as they are one, and we do see the Father through Christ.
John 8:19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."
Since Jesus in the flesh was still fully God, that in and of itself means He would not sin.
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
God, Father and Son as they are one, is not tempted to sin, because there is no lust for the physical things of this world. He would not have lusted even when He was in the flesh, because He had the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34).
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Look at the whole passage there John.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v. 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (at the Majesty's Father's side, but not the Father),
v. 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Surely you know that an image or likeness or reproduction or facsimile is not the thing that it represents, neither is the Son.
I have never denied that the Father and the Son are one God, but I do not believe that makes them one and the same being and I do not see any Scripture that says that.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Bob, here is what you were asking about.
G2822
κλητός
klētos
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
called, 11
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Rom_1:1, Rom_1:6-7 (2), Rom_8:28, 1Co_1:1-2 (2), 1Co_1:24, Jud_1:1, Rev_17:14
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect, 13
Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13
chosen, 7
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14
elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10
Maybe listen to all of this:
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3)
Maybe listen to all of this:
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3)
I was off by one video. Try this one:
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3)
Hi santgem,
Just because Psalms 22 says "thou art my God from the time I was born" it does not exclude that the Father was His God before that. Now when God is spoken of in the OT it includes the Father and Son... THEY are one - God from the beginning when the Son came forth.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,
Gen 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Compare that to this next verse that is speaking of the very same thing as Gen 1:26 where God is used instead of the plural pronoun, WE/OUR.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.
Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Can you not comprehend that when God created a God then you have two Gods?
but, when that God comes out with God that God will be one with that God so to speak in John 1
There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.
10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.
12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
All the rest is chasing the wind.
Hello ,all.
So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.
Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.
WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST
Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;
1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.
2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.
Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.
3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.
If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.
Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!
On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.
At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.
Luke 2:48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.
By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.
v. 49 And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…
“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch.
v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50 And they understood not…
They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.
I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”
So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?
This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;
Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).
Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?
Mary - God is your Father.
Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.
Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.
Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?
Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.
Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.
Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.
Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.
Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.
Jesus - I got what? What did I get?
Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.
Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.
I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.
Walt.
Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.
One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"
Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.
I am having a little bit of a hard time following what you are saying... When the Father brought forth the Son/Word in the beginning, they were not separated into 2 Gods, because I believe the Father brought the Son forth as an extended part of Himself. The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation. But that part is not disconnected from the Father, He is in His bosom and the Father has complete control over the Son.
John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.
But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
O.K. Let's look at the 1st Scripture I quoted, Hebrews 1:3.
The King James and the NKJV says Jesus is the express image of God. The NASB says He is the exact representation of God.
Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts Hebrews 1:3? That says Jesus is not the exact representation of the Father?
Well, it is obvious our little group are not of one mind on this matter. But look at the interest it engenders. God is bringing this issue to the fore. I wonder why? Why was Ray interested in this matter near the end of his life?
I believe that when we are given the wisdom to understand the concept of ONE, then the idea of dividing ONE will cease.
Be it known Kat when that time God brought forth YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah he is not a Being, we did not know how God formed YHWH but we know that YHWH brought forth by God.
The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.
Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.
Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
Hello Kat,
Greetings!
Actually Dennis is right in his definition in a being " a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human".QuoteThe Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.
In order for us to be on the same page i assumed when you said that the Father is not a being is like that he is not created and he is eternal. That in that case that i believe that when God bring forth YHWH he is also not a "being" or not created.
continuing;QuoteSantgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.
Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
let us hear from the God's words.
Numbers 12:6 And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say:“If there were prophets among you,I, the LORD, would reveal myself in visions. I would speak to them in dreams.
7But not with my servant Moses.Of all my house, he is the one I trust.8I speak to him face to face,
clearly, and not in riddles!He sees the LORD as he is.
The Lord show himself in a vision and be able to take in any form as he wishes. He is sending messengers either in the form of a man, angel voice etc. I do not believe that Abraham and Jacob actually see God.
We are not to believe that when The Lord manifested himself as a human that he made himself of no reputation in the OT.
The realization of the Lord being in the flesh is when he "Phl. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
John, with respect. I don't take hear-say evidence into the court of my own thoughts. No matter how many conversations you had with Ray, it is still possible that you misunderstood and therefor are misrepresenting his thoughts, in part or in full. Having been guilty of that myself recently, I am fully aware it can be done.
Hi Santgem,
I don't think Kat is saying that Jesus appeared as flesh and blood when He appeared to Moses or that He is in anyway flesh and blood but rather that He has the "form" or "likeness" of a man. If He is the image of God that we as humans are to behold in order to understand God the Father, and in fact God, it would make sense that this image would be in a form that we can relate to.
I don't claim to have the answers or who is right or wrong, but I certainly see this idea as being possible and the scriptures seem to imply this, though again, it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in a subject as deep and profound as this one, we might not be looking at the totality of the scriptures on this matter. I would imagine such an exposition would take up pages upon pages of individual scripture just to lay it all down, let alone explain it.
Either way, I find this discussion to be very edifying as I am reminded of old things and seeing new things as well.
God bless,
Alex
when He appeared to Moises He has the “form” or “Likeness” of a man. Moises did see the back parts of God which is a form.
Speaking in the OT, YHWH cannot have his human form with flesh and blood or else it will contradicts hundreds of verses in the Scripture.
If YHWH had his human form as a man, then he will be under law as
“Gal. 4:4and when the fullness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law”
Jesus fulfilled the law in the NT, we are now under grace.