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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Anjel Uriel on April 13, 2022, 11:55:31 PM
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I ask this because I read Revelations 3:9 where it says Christ will make those who claim to be {spiritual} Jews bow before The Elect and the word bow is 4352. proskuneó which is used in other scriptures as worshipping God (Matthew: 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 4:9, 8:2, John 4:20, 4:23, Luke 4:7, 24:52, and so on). Then there’s also the scripture that states in the same way Christ seats on the throne of The Father so will we sit on His throne if we overcome as He did (Revelation 3:21). So if Christ is worshipped because He’s in The Throne of The Father and made in His Image then will the elect also be worshipped because they sit on Christ’s Throne and made in His Image? Also there’s the Scripture where it says “You are Gods, all of you are sons of The Most High” (Psalm 82:6) and Christ said it applied to Him because He was The Son of God and sanctified by The Father and the elect will also be sons of God (Romans 8:19, Matthew 5:9, Romans 8:15, and John 1:12) and are sanctified by The Father through Christ (John 17:17 and John 15:3 ) so will it also apply to them?
Ray said that God is a family and when you are part of that family then you are God because you are perfect and are one with The Father and that we are promised to be one with God and Christ as they are one. Therefore if we are to be made like Christ (1 John 3:2) and be made in The Image of God (Romans 8:29, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 15:49 and Philippians 3:21), be called kings, priest and lords ( Revelation 1:6 Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:16), and share the Spirit of Glory and Perfection that Christ and The Father have, wouldn’t that make The Elect basically God to everyone else beside The Father and The Son? They could even rephrase what Christ said to Phillip along the lines of “He who has seen Me has seen Jesus; so how can you say, ‘Show us Jesus’?
However, Christ will always be The First in everything (Colossians 1:18 and Ephesians 1:22) and the Prominent One and even though we are co-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17 Galatians 3:29 and Galatians 4:7) , He’s still The Firstborn (Hebrews 12:23, Colossians 1:15, and Hebrews 1:6 ) and if the title God is an inheritance then it rightly will go to the oldest in the family since He is the beginning of The Strength of His Father (Deuteronomy 21:17 and Genesis 49:3). I still don’t know for sure so that’s why I’m asking you all what do you think? I think this is an interesting thing to meditate about since we can sometimes not think enough about these rewards since it seems way too good for our finite mind to comprehend.
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Yes.
Whether they are worshipping them as if they are God is another question, but bowing before them is indeed worship. From Ray's worship study (May 2007):
Well actually it is, you know, it is a form of worship. When you pay homage, reverence or humility to anything whether it be an object or a monarch or a pagan god or whatever, it’s worship, okay. But there’s more to it then that.
Strong’s concordance, in the Greek, there are several words, but this is the most prevalent used; worship - to do reverence, to adore, like a dog licking his master’s hand. That the example he uses, like a dog licking your hand, that’s worship. Or you know, like a man bowing down or kissing the Pope’s ring, or whatever. These are signs of worship.
Now in the Hebrew it‘s a little different, but same general idea; worship - to prostrate (that means to get down), bow down, humble, obeisance. That’s the definition of the word.
As you pointed out, the word is sometimes translated as worship, and several versions (KJV, ASV, WEB) use worship in Revelation 3:9.
Here are some more passages:
Isaiah 45:11-14
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.
14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
Isaiah 49
22 For thus says my Lord Yahweh, "Behold! I will lift My hand to the nations, and to the peoples will I raise My banner high. And they bring your sons in a bosom pouch, and your daughters on the shoulders shall be borne,
23 and kings become your foster fathers, and their chiefesses your wet nurses. Nostrils to the earth, shall they prostrate to you, and the soil at your feet shall they lick up. Then you shall know that I am Yahweh, and those expecting Me shall not be ashamed.
Isaiah 60:14 And go to you to prostrate shall all the sons of your humiliators, and worship at the soles of your feet shall all your spurners. And they call you the city of Yahweh, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
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Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Romans 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
These are but two verses from a chapter which is all about the "chosen" and it's role in the plan of salvation. Nothing clearer anywhere, I think. Read it. Slowly. All the words.
So here's a question. Is the earnest expectation of the creature waiting for the manifestation of you?
Here's another one. If the whole creation has been groaning and travailing in pain and you show up, will that end their groaning and travailing, or disappoint them once again?
Here's a promise. If you simply don't disappoint ME, I'll give you your due worship. How's that?
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Yes.
Whether they are worshipping them as if they are God is another question, but bowing before them is indeed worship. From Ray's worship study (May 2007):
Well actually it is, you know, it is a form of worship. When you pay homage, reverence or humility to anything whether it be an object or a monarch or a pagan god or whatever, it’s worship, okay. But there’s more to it then that.
Strong’s concordance, in the Greek, there are several words, but this is the most prevalent used; worship - to do reverence, to adore, like a dog licking his master’s hand. That the example he uses, like a dog licking your hand, that’s worship. Or you know, like a man bowing down or kissing the Pope’s ring, or whatever. These are signs of worship.
Now in the Hebrew it‘s a little different, but same general idea; worship - to prostrate (that means to get down), bow down, humble, obeisance. That’s the definition of the word.
As you pointed out, the word is sometimes translated as worship, and several versions (KJV, ASV, WEB) use worship in Revelation 3:9.
Here are some more passages:
Isaiah 45:11-14
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.
14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
Isaiah 49
22 For thus says my Lord Yahweh, "Behold! I will lift My hand to the nations, and to the peoples will I raise My banner high. And they bring your sons in a bosom pouch, and your daughters on the shoulders shall be borne,
23 and kings become your foster fathers, and their chiefesses your wet nurses. Nostrils to the earth, shall they prostrate to you, and the soil at your feet shall they lick up. Then you shall know that I am Yahweh, and those expecting Me shall not be ashamed.
Isaiah 60:14 And go to you to prostrate shall all the sons of your humiliators, and worship at the soles of your feet shall all your spurners. And they call you the city of Yahweh, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Hi Jesse, I didn’t know of those scriptures you posted so thank you. I did know that Ray said that bowing or paying homage is a form of worship but I asked because it struck me as odd that Jesus Himself said He would make people bow down before The Elect because when I think of bowing down to someone, I have only thought of bowing before Jesus since He's The Lord but it would make sense that people would bow before The Chosen since they sit with Christ in His Throne. So from what I can gather is that The Elect will be honored just as Christ is honored because they rule with Him the same way Christ is to be honored just as The Father is honored because He rules with Him (John 5:23).
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Hi Anjel,
One particular difference concerning ruling in the Kingdom of God is that we will rule for the benefit of those under our care, whereas in human circumstances today the rulers rule for their own selfish benefit or to bestow honor and praise upon themselves. Rich people gather followers by presenting gifts and then expect gratitude in return. God owns everything and gives liberally with no expectation of sacrifice in return.
Indiana Bob
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Hi Anjel,
One particular difference concerning ruling in the Kingdom of God is that we will rule for the benefit of those under our care, whereas in human circumstances today the rulers rule for their own selfish benefit or to bestow honor and praise upon themselves. Rich people gather followers by presenting gifts and then expect gratitude in return. God owns everything and gives liberally with no expectation of sacrifice in return.
Indiana Bob
Yes agreed. When I think of rule, I think of the Greek "poimainō", which according to strongs means:
to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
to rule, govern
of rulers
to furnish pasture for food
to nourish
to cherish one's body, to serve the body
to supply the requisites for the soul's need
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Hi Anjel,
One particular difference concerning ruling in the Kingdom of God is that we will rule for the benefit of those under our care, whereas in human circumstances today the rulers rule for their own selfish benefit or to bestow honor and praise upon themselves. Rich people gather followers by presenting gifts and then expect gratitude in return. God owns everything and gives liberally with no expectation of sacrifice in return.
Indiana Bob
Hi Indiana Bob, I certainly agree that the rulership of men and God’s children will be different. Men at the end of the day no matter their good intentions, are still flesh and therefore weak and subject to vanity but our Lord is perfect and He has promised us to be part of that perfection if we overcome our sins by His Grace through His Faith which comes by His Spirit in us. Honestly every time I think of the rewards of the Kingdom, my finite physical/carnal mind gets blown away. I’m 21 and suppose I die before The Lord returns and I fall asleep around the age of 90. Then if I remained in His Love and be chosen for the 1st Resurrection then when I’m risen and meet Him, He could say “Anjel, because I love you and choose you, you will no longer be called by that name but I will give you a new name and proclaim it in front of Our Father. I will give you power over the nations and you will be a king and a priest in the temple of Our God. I will reward you for every good deed I did in you and because you remained faithful till you were 90 then you will live forever with Me and we will never be separated”. Like WHAT, truly Paul was given great wisdom when he said that the sufferings of this world are not worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed in us. I pray that The Lord returns soon and that all of us here in this forum and our brothers and sisters around the world overcome quickly since we need to keep Revelations and “this things must come to pass quickly”.
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Hello again Anjel,
You have a very inspiring way of stating your beliefs and I agree and am sure that you will develop even more along the path that our Lord has for you. At your tender age of 21 (smile) you have many great discoveries ahead of you.
I'm 87 and have been slowly and gradually learning since about 1970 with several corrections along the way.
Our God has a unique plan for each person and it will certainly be a blessing for each of us.
Indiana Bob