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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: newgene87 on August 30, 2012, 09:06:32 PM
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Finally reminded of another verse I am CONPLETELY confused over; what did Jesus mean by these verses????
Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
What is the meaning of the kingdom in connection with violence? And men "pressing into it"?? The only time I've heard this expounded was justifying "violence" among believers....and that seems so carnal. So seeking a truthful mean. Maybe Ray has spoke on it. Thanks everyone
Eugene
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Ray never spoke on this specifically.
Sounds like Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes and everyone: "Every man is forcing his way into it." Or maybe he was speaking to only the men?
At first I thought He was pointing to the pharisees, sadducees and scribes, since he spoke of violence; seeing how the pharisees were always seeking something on Him to get Him out of their way so they could get on with "business" as usual. But then you'd have to get out your big black magic marker and line through "every man is forcing his way into it."
Ray spoke of the crowds and how Jesus was constantly just mobbed...
GUILTY OF ALL excerpt:
But there’s even more than that. Actually you’re getting to it now. First let’s notice who He is addressing here. Let’s go back to the beginning, to chapter 5, where this whole sermon on the mount begins.
Matt. 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He (Jesus) went up on a mountain...
He always went up into the mountains to get away from the crowds. I mean it isn’t like He didn’t like the valleys, the valleys are fine, He did it to get away from the crowds. You see it in every sense portrayed in the movies. Jesus Christ from the time He started His ministry was mobbed day and night for the rest of His life. Do you know that?
You see Him in the movies and you watch these TV shows about Christ, you see Him walking down the road with His twelve apostles, just talking. Walking through the village or down the street. No, that’s not the way it was. He was always mobbed! He couldn’t walk, He couldn’t get through the crowds sometimes. Why? [Comment from attendee: Because He healed everybody.] Exactly.
I mean if He were out there walking down the street... if someone told me, there was this guy healing people down in Nashville and before that He was healing people over in Montgomery or Birmingham. I would be, let me out of here. I’d say, Lord I’ve got these knees and ankles and You know all this stuff. He healed people by the thousands and thousands. All His ministry, all He did was heal people, and they just pressed Him.
The only way He could get away was to go up in the mountains or go out in a ship, to get away from the crowds. You know you can only take that for so many hours a day and you got to get away. Usually He Would sneak up in a mountain someplace. They would be, 'where did He go.' They would hang around because He would be back and then they would bring some more sick people, because that was the way it was.
"When His disciples came unto Him" (Matt 5:1). He was up there in the mountains with only His disciples. Now understand Christ only talked to the masses in parables. But that doesn’t mean He didn’t also talk to His disciples in parables. He certainly did
( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.msg29049.html#msg29049 )
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(Side note: Every time I read those transcripts of Ray's audios I start to well up a little. It's amazing that someone was kind enough to take the time to type these articles up. I know the amount of work that went into that task alone and I'm just so grateful.)
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There is a relation between seek and force The God in you forces you by whatever means to take what is yours - I know this does not always work out in our idea of time,PLEASE GIVE ME WISDOM verses IN YOUR TIME Lord, but once the desire is seated within you than nothing the deceiver can say or do would make a difference to your "every step you take" - because it will be given to you, remember "Gift" and children...
My youngest wanted me to change her school,this was virtually impossible due to our location ,money - cost of books new uniform and the 1st response from the school being WE ARE FULL NO YOU CANT place your daughter in our school. I left it at that,then Rebecca my daughter would come and show me her status [on her phone] her present school was the school that turned us down,that got me stirred "how can you tell everyone you are in that school YOU are NOT" [My Misunderstanding was she wanted to be with her primary school friends]
Every day she would ask me if I had heard from that school? I would promptly say "you know the answer" Rebecca its "NO".Long story short, I got a phone call from the school out of the blue,asking me in to an interview there had been 2 kids that had left and so I went in knowing, with my current financial status that this was an interview that I knew the outcome was not going to happen albeit the new school accept them. [ I was there at the interview, my mind was made up, My appearance at the meeting was window dressing on my part - think about the extra fuel the traffic,the early waking up, no, my mind was made up - no way] - I went anyway and sat down and the headmaster quizzed me on her sport which is good,her academics were below average and he drilled me on all relative topics, in closing he asked me if Her brother in the same grade wanted the school as well I said yyyes I had no idea how i was going to fund this but they were accepted. [Got My Mind Unmade]
I have recently found out the both my son and daughter in the same grade [8] were both selected for the 1st team in the old school but were not allowed to play in those teams, that is rugby and hockey due to what the teachers call intimidation -
The older girls and boys [higher graders] would not take kindly to being pushed out of the team ahead of my 2 youngsters even if it was on merit -
Now all things, are opening up to them and the 2 are doing great, both have been accepted on leadership camps and they are so much happier - 14 year old girls are extreeeemly forceful.
Regarding the finances, I have no idea, but like Rebecca told me "that's not my Problem that's yours" as we speak they are leaving on a leadership camp with new sleeping bags,school uniforms paid for and books so in this instance "God you amaZe me " How .... Duh
Being forceful in relation to attaining the Kingdom, is NOT OUR PROBLEM
you will be invited to an interview ... and will say "what was all the fuss"
BTW Michael Rebecca's brother was sent home for 3 days after being in the school 1 day , for fighting - [Highley embarresing for me, given the interview with the headmaster and his strict stipulations]
explanation - he was protecting someone he did not even know, from a bunch of bullies, that too turned out for his good and Gods glory as leadership qualities seem to have been recognised ...
The Violence in your quoted scripture appears to have nothing to do with the physical realm
Ian
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Hi Eugene,
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:12 Now, from the days of John the baptist hitherto, the kingdom of the heavens is being violently forced and the violent are snatching it." (CLV)
The thing that occurs to me is if you look at the church and think how they are acting towards salvation, they think it is theirs to claim or "snatch" as the concordant said it. They have this 'free will' you know and therefore salvation is theirs for the taking. How wrong they are.
The church has a long history of violence and believe that by whatever means is necessary they have to 'save' people from hell. They do "press into it," but do they obtain it?
Mat 15:7-9 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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What is the meaning of the kingdom in connection with violence? And men "pressing into it"??
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence[G971], and the violent[G973 from G971] take it by force.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth[G971] into it.
Hi Eugene.
First and foremost,when Scripture can define the meaning of a word or words from within Scripture itself,I always use that meaning of said words to define what is being said,matching Spiritual with Spiritual.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The Spiritual interpretation of the words in Scripture themselves should always take precedence, meaning,how does the word in the verses being read relate to how that same word is used elsewhere in Scripture. After all,God is not the author of confusion.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace...
When I'm not understanding a word or words in Scripture, I always go to esword and do a word search/study to see how said word/words were used in their literal meanings,I then ask God to show me how those words should be interpreted in connection with their Spiritual meaning,after all, is not His words Spirit?. It takes some work, but with the help of the Spirit,the outcome is well worth it.
Joh 6:63...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
I think from the following you should be able to see what the intended usage of the words in question mean...
From Strong's concordance:
G971
βιάζω
biazō
bee-ad'-zo
From G970; to force, that is, (reflexively) to crowd oneself (into), or (passively) to be seized: - press, suffer violence.
From King James concordance:
G971
βιάζω
biazō
Total KJV Occurrences: 3
presseth, 1
Luk_16:16
suffereth, 1
Mat_11:12
violence, 1
Mat_11:12 (2)
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
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I wonder if we don't over think some things and make them more complex than needed ? Paul spoke of the simplicity in Christ.
In Matt 11:2, John is in prison. Herod arresting John and throwing him in prison (later chopping off his head) is a violent act.
In Matt 11:12, Jesus is commenting upon the violent aspect of John's arrest.
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Thanks to everyone for their input. Ian, thanks for the "parable" like experience you shared ;), I'm knocking on the spiritual connection there. Thank you kat and Gina. I will use those scriptures to pray and grow in this enigma. And thanks Mark for the reminder. you went over every spiritual step I cover in my head. Ray teaches me that in just about every paper I read. With EVERY verse of scripture I go through the steps in the "12 Truths" and the foundational truths - always upholding Christ words are spiritual. I have an companion bible with commentaries and word studies, a strongs concordance, Esword, olivetree -- I have the tools but nothing beats the wisdom I get from here on things I may miss. Im a fervent student of the scriptures, i study everyday (literally) but there are things that i will miss and this site is that gap. And ill continue to pray on it. Kat I believe you uncovered something I was missing. I just don't see how the "KINGDOM" is suffering violence - I would understand if he said the "church" suffers violence. I wil look deeper and continue to "match spiritual with spiritual".
Eugene
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I wonder if don't over think some things and make them more complex than needed ? Paul spoke of the simplicity in Christ.
In Matt 11:2, John is in prison. Herod arresting John and throwing him in prison (later chopping off his head) is a violent act.
In Matt 11:12, Jesus is commenting upon the violent aspect of John's arrest.
Thanks John. I will look into that. But if there was this such simplicity why is "The Rich Man and Lazarus" parable have such an LENGTHY explaination??? And Jesus repeated, he that has ears to hear, let him hear....wouldn't that take some effort to grasp things? And Jesus spoke in ways that no one would understand - and we live in a time where translations, church heresies, and false doctrines have covered the "simplicity" in Christ.... And wondering, how is "violent men taking it(the kingdom of the heavens) BY FORCE??". I will continue to seek and ask :)
Eugene
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I wonder if don't over think some things and make them more complex than needed ? Paul spoke of the simplicity in Christ.
In Matt 11:2, John is in prison. Herod arresting John and throwing him in prison (later chopping off his head) is a violent act.
In Matt 11:12, Jesus is commenting upon the violent aspect of John's arrest.
Thanks John. I will look into that. But if there was this such simplicity why is "The Rich Man and Lazarus" parable have such an LENGTHY explaination??? And Jesus repeated, he that has ears to hear, let him hear....wouldn't that take some effort to grasp things? And Jesus spoke in ways that no one would understand - and we live in a time where translations, church heresies, and false doctrines have covered the "simplicity" in Christ.... And wondering, how is "violent men taking it(the kingdom of the heavens) BY FORCE??". I will continue to seek and ask :)
Eugene
The most important thing in understanding scripture is the Spirit of God. Not concordances, translations, or human explanation.
Wasn't Ray's article on Lazarus and the Rich Man easy to understand? It was very easy if God's Spirit guided ones reading and understanding.
"...Not by might nor by power , but by my Spirit says the LORD Almighty." Zech. 4:6
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Eugene, you ask good (read: challenging) questions. I love digging for the answers to your questions. For obvious reasons I'm always a little hesitant to answer the questions when I know Ray hasn't specifically addressed the subject.
You know, Ray spoke of the "Kingdom of the HeavenS" here:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg49588.html -----------
HEAVEN OF THE HEAVENS
So what is the kingdom? We are the kingdom of God. We are the kingdom of the heavens. Where does God reside? In heaven. God resides in heaven, but it is not called the kingdom of heaven in the Greek, you can check Rotherham and all those, it’s kingdom of the heavens, plural. We are the temple of God. God resides in His temple God resides in heaven. We are the heaven in which God resides, where He dwells. But don’t get to haughty, because the Scriptures say, not even all the heaven of the heavens can contain Him.
2Chron 6:18 …Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
But never the less it is true, He does dwell in the heavens. But they can’t even contain Him, He’s bigger than that. But He does dwell in His heavens, we are His heavens, we are His spiritual kingdom. But it does not yet appear what we shall be, we only have the earnest, down payment of His spirit.
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We have the down payment, but John says we will eventually see Him as He is, because we will be like Him. We will be like Jesus Christ.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
So we are the kingdom of God. Christ is going to return with a kingdom. What does He return with? What is the symbolism of how Christ returns? He returns on, what is He riding? A white horse. Is anybody with Him? An army. Are they walking? They are riding on white horses too.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
What is that army? The kingdom of God... IT'S US! We are coming with Him, He is going to gather US up. Gather up what? His army, His kingdom!
Someone above pointed out that John the Baptist suffered violence.
Jesus suffered violence. (Ray pointed out that Jesus was "mobbed" -- know what it means to be "mobbed"?)
Paul did a lot of violence.
It's also spiritual like someone else said above. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts ch. 14)
But you specifically asked about this:
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Some translations read: every man forces his OWN WAY into it.
But just like in Ray's fireman analogy, no one will get into the Kingdom ANY way or their OWN way, no; there's only ONE way anyone's entering and that is God's way - through Jesus Christ.
It also sounds like the people were so glad to be set free from Law of Moses that they were suddenly without restraint of any kind -- like caged animals just let loose.
Who knows -- maybe they thought to themselves (like Eve did), I'm gonna get in as quick as I can and I'm gonna take this shortcut, and I don't care if I trample on that person or elbow this person -- I'm getting in!
Was Jesus saying they were climbing up some other way: Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some OTHER WAY, the same is a thief and a robber. John 10:1
Maybe it would help to read the entire chapter of Luke 16:
1 And he said also to his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused to him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said to him, How is it that I hear this of you? give an account of your stewardship; for you may be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord takes away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors to him, and said to the first, How much owe you to my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said to him, Take your bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7 Then said he to another, And how much owe you? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said to him, Take your bill, and write fourscore.
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9 And I say to you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11 If therefore you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
12 And if you have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said to them, You are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail.
18 Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery.
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
27 Then he said, I pray you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Do you see anything surrounding the verse you're questioning that supports anything that anyone here has said?
And lastly, I believe the reason it doesn't say "the church suffered violence" is because there really wasn't a "church" in the truest sense of the word at that time. There was the "lost sheep of the house of Israel," there were synagogues, but not "churches." It was upon this rock (PETER) that Jesus would build His church (or the kingdom of the heavenS).
I hope that was of some assistance to you my dear son. :)
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But if there was this such simplicity why is "The Rich Man and Lazarus" parable have such an LENGTHY explaination???
I second that.
But there is simplicity in Jesus Who is our rest. That's why none of us had to try to figure that parable out. It was just given to us. It is as if God said, Okay, you all just sit down, just relax, and this man Ray will explain to you the meaning of that parable.
Just like when Jesus instructed the starving multitudes to recline and then He took the loaves and fishes and blessed them and then handed them back to His disciples who were commissioned by Jesus to then feed it all to the multitudes. :)
We didn't have to lift a finger.
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I think the answer is in the parable of the little kids.
Mat 11:16-19 Now to what shall I be likening this generation? Like is it to little boys and girls sitting in the markets, who, shouting to the others, are saying, 'We flute to you and you do not dance! We wail and you do not grieve!'"
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they are saying, 'A demon has he!'" The Son of Mankind came eating and drinking, and they are saying, 'Lo! a man gluttonous and a tippler, a tribute collectors' and sinners' friend!' And justified was Wisdom by her acts.
Poor little children. They try to call the shots, but the 'others' won't do what they say! :'( >:( Little Johnny the Baptist doesn't dance, and that Jesus kid doesn't grieve!! John has a demon, and Jesus is a glutton and a tippler and friends with bad people. I'm telling!! >:(
Sounds to me like 'bullying', petulance and 'name-calling' that just doesn't work on those two. "Oh boy, will they pay for that!"
Sound familiar? Ever been in the market with the fluters and wailers? Ever been a fluter or wailer?
Maybe that's the violence the Kingdom suffers. It's certainly been the violence I've suffered. It's also some of the violence I've caused other people to suffer.
When a passage confuses you, keep reading.
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The good news is, even though the Kingdom suffers violence against it and the violent take it by force:
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? Romans 8:31
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (Matthew 16:18)
(Thanks for that, Dave. ;) )
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I like this thread as it has brought out some wonderful postings. And it has made me think about the process of understanding the word.
Ray in an email says:
Unfortunately, we can not often learn the meaning of Scriptures from Strong's Lexicon. We learn from God by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, and only then by the inspiration of His Spirit.
and in another email:
Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours.....
I find that challenging and inspiring. And added to that he (Ray) has left us such a wealth of teaching.
Dave wrote:"When a passage confuses you, keep reading." To that I add Ray's advice to meditate on it for several hours never forgetting to apply the 12 Truths to Understanding His Word.
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I can see that when God brought John the Baptist on the scene it upset everyone that didn't have their eyes opened to the fact that The Lord Jesus Christ was the Savour that was promised to come.
From that time the Christian era has been full of all manner of violence both physical, and spiritual.
Paul tells Christians to put on the Whole Amour of God he refers to in Ephesians 6.
Another scripture that comes to mind is; Philippians 3, especially verses 13-14.
13-Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14- I PRESS toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Joel
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i am thinking that the two verses you quoted eugene are prophetic. speaking of Jesus Christ himself. he did come on the scene about the time of john the baptist, to begin His ministry.
claudia
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Most kids are demanding/forcefull, which we usually frown apon, this I think may be our key ...
unless we become as "little" children -
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Matthew 11 (The Message)
11-14 "Let me tell you what's going on here: No one in history surpasses John the Baptizer; but in the kingdom he prepared you for, the lowliest person is ahead of him. For a long time now people have tried to force themselves into God's kingdom. But if you read the books of the Prophets and God's Law closely, you will see them culminate in John, teaming up with him in preparing the way for the Messiah of the kingdom. Looked at in this way, John is the 'Elijah' you've all been expecting to arrive and introduce the Messiah.
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I just don't see how the "KINGDOM" is suffering violence - I would understand if he said the "church" suffers violence.
Hey Eugene.
If you are truly of the church of God and being called and chosen and faithful unto the end, then would you not believe that the kingdom of God is within you...now?
Eph 1:13 In whom [Him] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luk 17:20 And when he[Christ] was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Was not the suffering[violence]that Jesus went through for His kingdom,church [elect] the same violence[suffering] that we must all go through in being crucified with Him daily?(Joh 6:63...the words that I speak unto you,they are spirit...) Does not being seized and pressed daily by virtue of dying to self from the fire above,living for the Christ,cause one to be drawn[dragged] violently away from ones own 'self-righteous' evil ways?
By dying to self we will suffer the violence needed [to be seized and pressed...in suffering for Him...by the killing of that beast within] to enter into His kingdom, now,by the dying of our old man adam,and the putting on the new man,that is [Christ in us],thus bearing the fruit that leads to aionion life,which is His Spiritual fruit in us...now.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,
Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment[condemnation]: because as he is, so are we in this world.
We become that new man in Christ when we learn obedience, by the things which we suffer, unto salvation.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
because we can now...
Col 1:24 ...rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
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I really like this thread. (Continuing...)
throng: mob, pack, pile, jam: press tightly together or cram
jostle, jostling: the act of jostling (forcing your way by pushing)
Mark 5:24
And Jesus went with him; and many people followed him, and thronged him.
So Jesus went with him. A huge crowd kept following him and jostling him .
Jesus went with the man. A huge crowd followed Jesus and pressed him on every side .
2 Cor. 7:5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our body had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
2 Cor. 4
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
Eph 6:12: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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well a lot of people are expressing their opinion on this interesting subject which is funny because i was thinking about this very scripture today and though of posting a question. change from glory to glory is very hard and seems at times violent not in a physical way but in the mind.
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Are not God's Chosen the heavens? Is not God's elect the Kingdom? Yes, A great man and teacher said WE are the Kingdom of heaven. Yes from Jesus time till the present times the Kingdom of the heavens suffers violence. Man what a scripture. Truer words never been spoken. Simple enough??
Darren
P.S. Who was this great man and teacher??
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L. Ray Smith. :)
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L. Ray Smith. :)
Yes, Ray was a gifted teacher, but please let's give praise and glory of greatness to only one, our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.
Rene'
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Aw man, Rene, I thank God every day for Ray. Every day I think about Ray and Bible-truths.com and Dennis and all of you all and I thank God and I know that the only reason I can smile half as much as I am able is because of that. No, I'll never forget that it was God Who deserves the praise for raising up L. Ray Smith.
And how do I praise God and give Him the glory? I try to learn and obey the teachings of God as L. Ray Smith taught me.
I personally believe God is not the least bit offended that we love Ray as much as we do. I didn't love or respect him nearly enough when he was alive. And it was because people kept coming up to me going -- He's just a man, he's just a man, he's just a man... I'm aware that Ray was just a man. He was a very special man and without God leading me to him, I'd be probably still in church.
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L. Ray Smith. :)
Yes, Ray was a gifted teacher, but please let's give praise and glory of greatness to only one, our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.
Rene'
Tis true. Unless he's the ONLY person that teach these truths....Jesus is still my Great Teacher. I'm thankful for this VITAL step in my walk but as of lately God reveals SO much more
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And moreover, Jesus said that whoever wants to be greatest in the Kingdom of heavens must be servant of all. I think that Ray was the greatest servant I've ever seen. He served and served and served. He never stopped serving us. He served us till the day he died and then he stored up things for us to keep on in our walk. He truly walked the talk.
I believe that God is pleased that we are cognizant of Ray's obedience to Him.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
1 Thessalonians 2:4 On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.
2 Corinthians 2:17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
Luke 10:16 "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
John 13:20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."
Matthew 10:40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.
Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
Gal 4:14 And my trial which was in my flesh you despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Ray was not looking for praise, which is why I rarely praised him when he was alive. I rarely wrote him and told him how much his material meant to me after I first came to the site because I was torn and tossed to and fro between trying to please people who kept saying he was "just a man" and between obeying and respecting him as someone who was sent by God. But I'm done kicking myself for that.
And I'm gonna shut up about that now. Thanks for listening tho. :)
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L. Ray Smith. :)
Yes, Ray was a gifted teacher, but please let's give praise and glory of greatness to only one, our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.
Rene'
Hey Rene',
Right on, Right on, Right on. Go girl. You said the truth! We have only One Master and Commander and Teacher. All praise and glory only to Him.
Like Ray, I don't fully understand the scriptural teaching on women teaching. But, if Jesus ever asks me, I'm going to suggest that He give you a preacher's license. ;D
John
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All praise and all glory ONLY to Him? You mean I need to line through these verses of scripture?
(James 1:12) Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, HE will receive the CROWN of life that God has promised to those who love him.
(1 Peter 5:4) And when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, YE shall receive the CROWN OF GLORY that fadeth not away.
(1 Thes 2:19) For what is our hope or joy or CROWN OF BOASTING BEFORE OUR LORD JESUS at his coming? Is it not YOU?
That you would walk worthy of God, who has called you unto his kingdom and GLORY. (1 Thessalonians 2:12)
(2 Corinthians 4:6) For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in OUR hearts to give US the light of the knowledge of the GLORY of God in the face of Christ.
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, so that we may be also GLORIFIED together. (Romans 8:17)
(2 Cor. 1:14) as also ye did acknowledge us in part, that are YOUR GLORYING, even as ye also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus.
(Phil. 1:26) that YOUR GLORYING may abound in Christ Jesus IN ME through my presence with you again.
( 1 Thes. 2:20 ) Indeed, YOU are our GLORY and joy.
Am I not supposed to boast of another? Is that sin? Let's see here....
Prov. 12:8 A MAN IS PRAISED according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised. (You can say that again!)
For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I BOAST of YOU to THEM of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and YOUR ZEAL has PROVOKED VERY MANY. (2 Cor. 9:2)
2 Cor. 7:14 I had BOASTED to him ABOUT YOU, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our BOASTING ABOUT YOU to Titus has proved to be true as well.
(2 Cor. 5:12) We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take PRIDE IN US, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
Would a married woman do well to rethink their role as the wife to their beloved? Should she not be looking at her husband as any kind of "lord"? Well, what do we have here:
(1 Peter 3:6) like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and CALLED HIM HER MASTER. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
(1 Corinthians 16:18) For they refreshed my spirit and yours also. SUCH MEN DESERVE RECOGNITION.
Ray loved God a LOT. "... and I love the scriptures." ~from Ray's letter to Hagee/Kennedy.
(John 15:13) GREATER love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;
Ray laid down his life for us -- well, he did for me and a few others.
His bible-truths cards that he gave me to hand out say: Unlike any other site on the internet."
Even Ray knew he has something pretty special and wasn't ashamed to admit it. I believe it too.
God bless everyone and thanks for hearing me out.
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I know it's a matter of opion. In my opion L. Ray Smith was a great man and a great teacher. Does that mean I am comparing Ray to Jesus Christ Lord and Saviour of all humankind?? Really, Throughout history we had great men and women who were great teachers and yet I do not pray, worship or give glory on high to these people. There's only The Father and His Son. WOW!! Let them who have eyes see, and ears, hear.....
Darren
P.S Good job Gina
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All praise and all glory ONLY to Him?
Absolutely! Ray is dead, Jesus is alive. Whatever spiritual gifts Ray had,they came from God. He and only He is worthy of our worship and praise.
Rene'
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Rene, I will not force you to believe what I believe. I've laid out all that scripture and I was only getting warmed up. But in ending I will say this: Neither you, nor JFK, nor Eugene have given one scripture as backup for what you espouse -- not one.
I will continue to thank God for Ray--who has not disappointed me in the least. Ray at this very moment is simply reposing and when God wakes him up someone's going to be kissing his feet:
Revelation 3:9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
Isaiah 60
1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
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I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isa 42:8
...that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to Whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1Peter 4:11
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to Whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:20-21
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Well with that said
2 Corinthians 5:16
"Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer."
1 Corinthians 3:3
for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
And definitely after learning the "carnal" fall out between Ray and another Teacher who teaches these SAME truths -- Ray, could acknowledge He was "yet carnal". WE can be "yet carnal" even if we're still regarding Jesus when He was on this earth as a man in flesh. It's "Carnal" until we acknowledge Christ, in Spirit as the Consummation and goal of Truth - we should move beyond the milk of Ray, milk of the word, "letters" and on to the meat of the word, the spirit that gives life, and the truth we abide in. I Glorify God and thank God ONLY (now) for the teachings from Ray - but we would still be Carnal if We give this "Man" more Praise than due
...just so much as the builder of a house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God." (Hebrews 3:3-4)
Ray's "House" was beneficial for its time - but it was Jesus that gave US the understanding that Ray taught. It still points to Jesus. We should regard no one according to the flesh an once we mature to that state of mind - it leads and points to Christ - NO MAN. Great Teacher, bashed the theologians of today a little too much, but He nailed his ideas by Christ. And WE understood BY Christ, not by Ray.
May We all be aware of our carnality. Not Even regarding the cross, his miracles, his healings -- they were all for "the flesh" to see and eventually "the spirit" to grasp.
And I can GUARANTEE, no one - and I mean no one will be kissing Rays feet upon Resurrection. This All points "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" - ONLY to Jesus.
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This thread has run its course. I'm sure nobody here would ever put Ray over Jesus Christ. And everyone understands that is only by the Grace of God and Christ that we found the teaching at bibletruths and had our eyes opened. And only by God's grace did He use Ray to be a teacher. Ray was a man, warts and all, Christ is God, there is no equal.
It is also fine for folks to be thankful to Ray for giving so much of his life and time to teaching us God's word. I am very thankful for that and would give praise to Ray for giving of himself so much.
I can appreciate those of you who are thankful and want to stress the Christ is prize and only through him is all things possible, that is true. I can also appreciate those who wish to be thankful for Ray's servitude, that is also true.
Everyone should be reminded that the purpose of the forum "is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com" The discussion therefore will center on the teachings of Christ as was conveyed through Ray, not the teachings conveyed through Craig, Dennis, Rene, Kat, Dave, Marques, or any member here. That does not mean there are not other teachers in the world or among us, it just means the forum discussions are narrowly focused.
Craig